Average Income in Canada?

[little-fish]

Whats an average income for single/household in Canada? Thanks.

[shoei]

single i think its 20-25k...

[AzN_RiverdaleCI]

single i think its 20-25k...

Is that after or before taxes?

[R8247]

Gross ....

[Arkaine]

single i think its 20-25k...

You sure that's not after tax?


http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil05a.htm

[faken]

if you're living in winnipeg with 25k and you're single, you can live pretty comfortably.

[blizzah]

if you're living in winnipeg with 25k and you're single, you can live pretty comfortably.

And in Toronto rent alone will take over half that.

It all depends where you live in Canada, Toronto to Winnepeg to Edmonton to Iqaluit. Everywhere differs in standard of living as well as how much one can earn.

[FlintBlade]

You sure that's not after tax?


http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil05a.htm

Nah, it's about 20-25k before taxes. For instance, if you work at walmart full time, 40 hours a week at $9/hr, that's only $18,000 and with profit sharing and vacation pay it becomes around $20,000. If you make $10/hr or work overtime it will go up to the $25k area.

That's comfortable living, not amazing, but decent. Bills will be roughly 10-12k for a decent sized apartment. If you have a roommate, the total income doubles. Which is why any college job is totally worth pursuing. Working in a factory you can easily make 50-60k a year but you have to work in a factory! eww. Any full time job other then walmart can make 30-35k. A decent college career can make 45k average starting with benefits and up to 90k if you're good. Plus you get to do what you want.

[Ebola]

On RFD it's 100k+.

[FlintBlade]

And in Toronto rent alone will take over half that.

It all depends where you live in Canada, Toronto to Winnepeg to Edmonton to Iqaluit. Everywhere differs in standard of living as well as how much one can earn.

Pretty much, if it costs 30k to live in that city, you will either make 35k at a minimum wage job or the city is clearly meant for people with money. I know certain neighborhoods charge a premium on their houses because it's a nice area to live in. While a house in a ghetto area would be far less because no one wants to live there.

[ullyeus]

if you're living in winnipeg with 25k and you're single, you can live pretty comfortably.

No you can't.

[ullyeus]

I know certain neighborhoods charge a premium on their houses because it's a nice area to live in. While a house in a ghetto area would be far less because no one wants to live there.

You win the "captain obvious" award.

[FlintBlade]

You win the "captain obvious" award.

Yay I won something! ....


...



Jack@ss :)

[monty613]

I know certain neighborhoods charge a premium on their houses because it's a nice area to live in. While a house in a ghetto area would be far less because no one wants to live there.

i can't stop laughing at this

[teufel-man]

i can't stop laughing at this

probably written by a youngster!

[Grassgreen]

if you're living in winnipeg with 25k and you're single, you can live pretty comfortably.

Are you nuts? Maybe if you live with mommy and daddy.

[deep]

I know certain neighborhoods charge a premium on their houses because it's a nice area to live in. While a house in a ghetto area would be far less because no one wants to live there.
I've met Flint, and I wanted to let people know that he is NOT, in fact, some sort of lower mammal, or computer-savvy mollusk.

[FlintBlade]

I've met Flint, and I wanted to let people know that he is NOT, in fact, some sort of lower mammal, or computer-savvy mollusk.

Ehehe, thanks for the support.

Ya, I am fairly young and obviously I don't know much about careers/bills as the other people in this thread. I don't have a career, I have a crappy job while I attend Highschool. I don't pay bills either. I'm sure when I finish University, my whole outlook on thinks will change, especially when I have to pay bills and such myself.

I guess stating the obvious isn't a smart thing to do - especially amongst all you higher intelligent people.

Although, I did try to help, I guess my help was useless - but if it got some laughs than it's fine by me :)

[mgronqui]

Ehehe, thanks for the support.

Ya, I am fairly young and obviously I don't know much about careers/bills as the other people in this thread. I don't have a career, I have a crappy job while I attend Highschool. I don't pay bills either. I'm sure when I finish University, my whole outlook on thinks will change, especially when I have to pay bills and such myself.

I guess stating the obvious isn't a smart thing to do - especially amongst all you higher intelligent people.

Although, I did try to help, I guess my help was useless - but if it got some laughs than it's fine by me :)

Sorry to hear that your opinions were criticized. I surely hope that won't prevent you from contributing in the future. Every place has its share of *******s and RFD is no different.

Keep doing your thing and everyone has something to offer.

[dairymandip]

On RFD it's 100k+.

lol it sure seems that way

you could make a thread 50k starting salary hires anyone

and then the majority what a cold deal, lol.

[mxk83]

I never post hear, usually just lurk, but this thread surprised the $#!t, outta me. Is my perspective just really skewed because I live in Alberta, or am I just crazy thinking that making under $30,000/year is an absolute joke?

I couldnt even imagine how hard life would be at 30/year, never mind 20-25. If anyone here makes those rates, do yourself a favor, move to Edmonton, pick up a trade, and instantly make 50-60+/year as an apprentice, and it just goes up from there. Yea maybe sometimes the work isn't the easiest, or the hours are long. But I know alot of people that have trade jobs where the only work 50 or so hours per week, and make some decent coin still. I also know ALOT of people that do the ft mcmurray thing and work a helluva lotta hours but make 100k+/year. Yea cost of living might be a bit high in Edmonton, but its nothing like Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto.

Even still if you hate labour work, try a phone support/helpdesk job like at TELUS, doesnt take much to get a job like that and they start at like $17/hour or so, with constant raises... and its union!

Its boggles my mind to hear what other people make and are willing to accept. I'm in Edmonton, work a pretty cushy desk job, that I enjoy for the most part, but make just under 50k/year, and I feel like I'm at the bottom of the barrel here (income wise).

Just thought I'd share some thoughts.

[dairymandip]

I never post hear, usually just lurk, but this thread surprised the $#!t, outta me. Is my perspective just really skewed because I live in Alberta, or am I just crazy thinking that making under $30,000/year is an absolute joke?

I couldnt even imagine how hard life would be at 30/year, never mind 20-25. If anyone here makes those rates, do yourself a favor, move to Edmonton, pick up a trade, and instantly make 50-60+/year as an apprentice, and it just goes up from there. Yea maybe sometimes the work isn't the easiest, or the hours are long. But I know alot of people that have trade jobs where the only work 50 or so hours per week, and make some decent coin still. I also know ALOT of people that do the ft mcmurray thing and work a helluva lotta hours but make 100k+/year. Yea cost of living might be a bit high in Edmonton, but its nothing like Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto.

Even still if you hate labour work, try a phone support/helpdesk job like at TELUS, doesnt take much to get a job like that and they start at like $17/hour or so, with constant raises... and its union!

Its boggles my mind to hear what other people make and are willing to accept. I'm in Edmonton, work a pretty cushy desk job, that I enjoy for the most part, but make just under 50k/year, and I feel like I'm at the bottom of the barrel here (income wise).

Just thought I'd share some thoughts.


why would anyone want to work 50 hours a week?

[mxk83]

why would anyone want to work 50 hours a week?

Its not like all jobs require it, but most labour/trade jobs here require some amount of overtime, because there is just too much work, and not enough people. I'm not saying everyone has to, but thats pretty common for a trade worker.

Plus how many people do you know that work "40 hour weeks" that make 60+/year. Even most professionals dont get to leave after their 8 hour work day is done, always something else to take of, work to take home, things to finish up on the weekend, etc....

And the best of all is people who work "8 hour days" when really its a 9 hour day because 1 hour is an unpaid lunch :P

[the_fm]

And the best of all is people who work "8 hour days" when really its a 9 hour day because 1 hour is an unpaid lunch :P

that or they get paid for 7 hour day like i was when i was a bookkeeper >:(

[mxk83]

that or they get paid for 7 hour day like i was when i was a bookkeeper >:(

Yea thats just as bad, I can understand a 1/2 hour unpaid, but the whole hour seems like a complete waste of time, because most people dont take that long and end up working during their lunch anyways!

[cheeseshredder]

The average is not 20-25k, someone posted a statscan link earlier, i don't know how people missed that.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil05a.htm

My family (Mom, me, brother) lives in Vancouver with 21k/yr, it pretty much sucks, but we're considered low income (anything under 35k is actually).

[cheeseshredder]

I never post hear, usually just lurk, but this thread surprised the $#!t, outta me. Is my perspective just really skewed because I live in Alberta, or am I just crazy thinking that making under $30,000/year is an absolute joke?

I couldnt even imagine how hard life would be at 30/year, never mind 20-25. If anyone here makes those rates, do yourself a favor, move to Edmonton, pick up a trade, and instantly make 50-60+/year as an apprentice, and it just goes up from there. Yea maybe sometimes the work isn't the easiest, or the hours are long. But I know alot of people that have trade jobs where the only work 50 or so hours per week, and make some decent coin still. I also know ALOT of people that do the ft mcmurray thing and work a helluva lotta hours but make 100k+/year. Yea cost of living might be a bit high in Edmonton, but its nothing like Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto.

Even still if you hate labour work, try a phone support/helpdesk job like at TELUS, doesnt take much to get a job like that and they start at like $17/hour or so, with constant raises... and its union!

Its boggles my mind to hear what other people make and are willing to accept. I'm in Edmonton, work a pretty cushy desk job, that I enjoy for the most part, but make just under 50k/year, and I feel like I'm at the bottom of the barrel here (income wise).

Just thought I'd share some thoughts.

Most people aren't that low, the people who are are usually people who came to Canada from other countries so they don't have that many job skills. (Not being able to speak fluent English is a huge limiting factor for many).

[Arkaine]

The average is not 20-25k, someone posted a statscan link earlier, i don't know how people missed that.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil05a.htm

My family (Mom, me, brother) lives in Vancouver with 21k/yr, it pretty much sucks, but we're considered low income (anything under 35k is actually).

Yeah I posted that Link, then the highschool kid gives his "opinion" of 20-25k and for some reason everyone went along with that.

Ironic.

At least not everyone looked past it!

[Engi-Nir]

Yeah I posted that Link, then the highschool kid gives his "opinion" of 20-25k and for some reason everyone went along with that.

Ironic.

At least not everyone looked past it!

lol....

i thought it was like 40k as an average outside toronto, and 30's in toronto???
(not including family incomes)

[d-licious]

I read this so long ago that I can't remember if they actually stated an average - but it looks like the middle 20% of individual Canadians make 20K - 33K.

The article below is a good read. I in their top 20% in terms of salary and I feel so damn poor (student debt, mortgage, etc.). It kinda made me feel better. :lol:

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/my_money/investing/article.jsp?content=20071127_094158_5856

[heymikey]

I read this so long ago that I can't remember if they actually stated an average - but it looks like the middle 20% of individual Canadians make 20K - 33K.

The article below is a good read. I in their top 20% in terms of salary and I feel so damn poor (student debt, mortgage, etc.). It kinda made me feel better. :lol:

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/my_money/investing/article.jsp?content=20071127_094158_5856
Thanks for the link. It's nice to see Alberta leading the level of income (http://www.canadianbusiness.com/my_money/investing/article.jsp?content=20071127_144252_6060) in any age group.

[lazarus]

I make 37k a year gross and that is pathetic IMO.. I saw a new report that 38-39k is the avg. Not the low to mid 20's.. lol

[little-fish]

I make 37k a year gross and that is pathetic IMO.. I saw a new report that 38-39k is the avg. Not the low to mid 20's.. lol

The difference between 37K and 39K should be very minimum if you take the tax bracket into consideration.

Would city like Toronto be higher ?? 50k for average?

[axela3]

[QUOTE=mxk83;6218424]Its not like all jobs require it, but most labour/trade jobs here require some amount of overtime, because there is just too much work, and not enough people. I'm not saying everyone has to, but thats pretty common for a trade worker.




i work in construction trade here in TO, 50hrs a week/5 days, made 70+K gross last yr....so i can attest to the above statement.

[BadDrafter]

I made $48,000 plus a few hundred here or there in 2007 and I only worked 7 months.

I shudder to think what would happen to me if I made average income, I would not be able to pull off what I just did.

[Krox]

Keep in mind that the stats a little skewed. The average salary tends to include students who only work part-time jobs which lowers the average salary.

[B0000rt]

why would anyone want to work 50 hours a week?

Because you're on the clock for each and every hour you work. Generally when you're "staying late today" at an office job it means you're usually doing this for free. Salary is Salary.

[Bullseye]

People tend to forget about certain factors when expressing shock at how little some families can live on in major cities, such as tax goodies and social program handouts. A family of four making $30k per year would pay almost zero taxes, and would receive thousands of dollars every year in CTB and GST rebate. They'd probably net close to $3k/month, which would allow them to get by okay.

I know my own family of four could live fairly well on $40k per year, if we had to. We have a nice newer house in the GTA and a nice new car, too. Lots of families could do the same, you'd have to be debt-free and already have bought a home few years ago, that's all.

[ghostryder]

Keep in mind that the stats a little skewed. The average salary tends to include students who only work part-time jobs which lowers the average salary.

It also likely includes people with multimillion dollar salaries, which would affect the average.

Does StatsCan do a mean calculation as well as an average?

[sleepyguy]

bingo. my gf parents are a case in point. husband works p/t for around 60k/yr and wife is semi retired and makes around 15k/yr... their house is paid off and they live very conformtably. not to mention teachers pension coming soon... sheesh. meanwhile i've met some couples that make over 200k/yr and are literary struggling... yeah they live in some prime areas. -sg

People tend to forget about certain factors when expressing shock at how little some families can live on in major cities, such as tax goodies and social program handouts. A family of four making $30k per year would pay almost zero taxes, and would receive thousands of dollars every year in CTB and GST rebate. They'd probably net close to $3k/month, which would allow them to get by okay.

I know my own family of four could live fairly well on $40k per year, if we had to. We have a nice newer house in the GTA and a nice new car, too. Lots of families could do the same, you'd have to be debt-free and already have bought a home few years ago, that's all.

[gilboman]

to live in toronto and be single, i'll say you need to net around 3.5-4k a month atleast.

car/insurance/gas/maintaince is 800 a month easy

roof over your head is around 1100 (rent a condo with utilities included)
Phone/Internet/Gym/misc 100
Food 800
Entertainment/clothes 400
others/emergency/etc 200

that adds up to 3400 already and that is just to really "exist"

[sockboy]

$800/month for a car and $400/month for entertainment and clothing and $800/month for food for ONE person!! That is hardly "just existing".

$1100/month rent incl. utilities
$300/month food
$100/month transit
$300/month entertainment/clothing
$100/month phone/internet/memberships
$100/month other
TOTAL $2000/month

And I think the numbers above are pretty comfortable. Loads of people live on a lot less, or have the same income and manage to save some money.

[michelb]

to live in toronto and be single, i'll say you need to net around 3.5-4k a month atleast.

car/insurance/gas/maintaince is 800 a month easy

roof over your head is around 1100 (rent a condo with utilities included)
Phone/Internet/Gym/misc 100
Food 800
Entertainment/clothes 400
others/emergency/etc 200

that adds up to 3400 already and that is just to really "exist"

I would certainly disagree that you need $3400 to exist

- You don't need a car and should have no problem using public transportation so make that $100/month (even if you have a car, if you have limited funds, there's no reason that your car expensive can't be under $500)

- I'll give you rent at $1100 (although I suspect you can get cheaper)
- Phone and dialup can easily be $40 or less per month but make it $50
- Food - a single person should easily be able to live on $300/month
- Entertainment/clothes - should easily be able to do this for $200 (even $100 or less if you are careful)
- other/emergency is pretty vague but I'll give it to you $200

So IMO, I think you should easily be able to exist for under $2k/month - still a fair amount of money but a far cry from $3400. Also anyone that strapped should consider sharing accomadations and then your rent, phone and even food can go down significantly.

[tomincanada]

to live in toronto and be single, i'll say you need to net around 3.5-4k a month atleast.

car/insurance/gas/maintaince is 800 a month easy

roof over your head is around 1100 (rent a condo with utilities included)
Phone/Internet/Gym/misc 100
Food 800
Entertainment/clothes 400
others/emergency/etc 200

that adds up to 3400 already and that is just to really "exist"

I know people who live in TO without a car so you could scratch the 800 a month if you had to (not ideal, I know but definitely doable as TO has a good subway system).

Also.. 800 a month for 1 person on food ?!? Are you serious? Stop eating caviar 3 times a day ;)

[michelb]

$800/month for a car and $400/month for entertainment and clothing and $800/month for food for ONE person!! That is hardly "just existing".
...
TOTAL $2000/month

And I think the numbers above are pretty comfortable. Loads of people live on a lot less, or have the same income and manage to save some money.

Haha, you just beat me to it - at least we agree though !

[Bullseye]

to live in toronto and be single, i'll say you need to net around 3.5-4k a month atleast.

car/insurance/gas/maintaince is 800 a month easy

roof over your head is around 1100 (rent a condo with utilities included)
Phone/Internet/Gym/misc 100
Food 800
Entertainment/clothes 400
others/emergency/etc 200

that adds up to 3400 already and that is just to really "exist"

You're assuming this imaginary person has nothing, though, and never has. True for people just starting out, but not for the majority of families. If a couple in Toronto bought 5-6 years ago, they might have a mortgage of only $1,000/month. In the city, they might not even need a car, or certainly not need one that will cost them $800/month to keep. A $10k used Civic just for occasional trips won't cost much in gas or insurance. Internet and gym are luxuries, a basic phone costs $20/month.

Finally, your food number is insane. My food cost for a family of four per month is about $600, and we eat very well.

[qster]

Finally, your food number is insane. My food cost for a family of four per month is about $600, and we eat very well.

+1. for the food (learn to cook at home)

I think "gilboman" assumes every single person MUST drive a new car.
My Car/Gas/Insurance doesn't even amount to $400 a month.

Of course...he also assumes everyone will live in a nice condo and not an apartment or a basement apartment for around $800/month.

Not every single person has a computer or internet.. this is why there are internet cafes around the downtown area.

As for FOOD.. I guess he eats out everyday and orders take-out a lot... my food costs for 2 people is about $500 and thats only because we go out to eat 1-2 time a week too (at a fancy restro).

I wonder what he does for entertainment that it is lumped in with clothing and is up to $400/month.
And $200 for emergency? must be the peelerpubs :lol:

Most singles I know.. budget themselves and get by on $2,000-$2,400 month easily in the GTA. Some don't own cars since the work in the city so transportation is only about $110/month.

[Psylocke]

Most singles I know.. budget themselves and get by on $2,000-$2,400 month easily in the GTA. Some don't own cars since the work in the city so transportation is only about $110/month.

Agreed. I'm budgeting that amount right now, live in a prime area of the city and still have some left over for savings and paying back OSAP.

lol@$800/month on food. My gosh, I don't even think I spend more than $200 on groceries/household items a month for myself... thank goodness for coupons and RFD!

Luxuries in the entertainment category is a personal preference, and if you want to budget effectively you can get by with just the basic needs.

Anyone making btwn $2000-$2400/month can easily afford to live in the city/GTA. Esp. if they opt to compromise on housing (e.g. roommate, room in house, basement apartment for less than $700). And if they live near transit, they won't even need a car and will only pay $100/month for a bus pass.

[heymikey]

+1. for the food (learn to cook at home)

I think "gilboman" assumes every single person MUST drive a new car.
My Car/Gas/Insurance doesn't even amount to $400 a month.

Of course...he also assumes everyone will live in a nice condo and not an apartment or a basement apartment for around $800/month.

Not every single person has a computer or internet.. this is why there are internet cafes around the downtown area.

As for FOOD.. I guess he eats out everyday and orders take-out a lot... my food costs for 2 people is about $500 and thats only because we go out to eat 1-2 time a week too (at a fancy restro).

I wonder what he does for entertainment that it is lumped in with clothing and is up to $400/month.
And $200 for emergency? must be the peelerpubs :lol:

Most singles I know.. budget themselves and get by on $2,000-$2,400 month easily in the GTA. Some don't own cars since the work in the city so transportation is only about $110/month.
So, the morale of the story is to live below your means. After all, this is RFD.

[sockboy]

I don't think the moral is living below your means, but spending wisely and reasonably whatever your means! $800/month for one person for food is pretty excessive!

[B0000rt]

I don't think the moral is living below your means, but spending wisely and reasonably whatever your means! $800/month for one person for food is pretty excessive!

No doubt, that's ~$27 a day, which is insane for food. Smarten up and buy some groceries.

Here's what I pay:
Rent $750
Car (Insurance+Gas) $300
Phone/Internet/Gym/misc included with Rent
Food $250
Entertainment/clothes/SD/FW Purchases etc (Amex Bill) $1000

For my wife and I, with this budget I'm able to save more than half my income.

[gilboman]

I guess I just can't let myself be devoid of the pleasures of eating well and transit is not an option for a lot of people if they live outside of the city.

500 for car payment (financing) 120 insruance, 200 gas 50maintaince is 900 already

i'm not saying you need 3k+ to survive, but to have a middle class enough lifestyle.

today i spend 5.50 for luch, 4bucks for a starbucks already. ten bucks for dinner and maybe 6bucks for a drink tonite is $25 already. times 30 and its 750 already.


weekends cost more of course.

i guess everybody have different expectations, but i dont think my numbers are excessive or extravagant.

[Bullseye]

I guess I just can't let myself be devoid of the pleasures of eating well and transit is not an option for a lot of people if they live outside of the city.

500 for car payment (financing) 120 insruance, 200 gas 50maintaince is 900 already

i'm not saying you need 3k+ to survive, but to have a decent enough lifestyle.

today i spend 5.50 for luch, 4bucks for a starbucks already. ten bucks for dinner and maybe 6bucks for a drink tonite is $25 already. times 30 and its 750 already.


weekends cost more of course.

i guess everybody have different expectations, but i dont think my numbers are excessive or extravagant.

You did say above that $3,400 for a single person would just allow them to 'exist', which is where I think people are disagreeing with you.

Personally, I would consider eating lunch out, a $4 coffee, and a bar drink, every single day, to be extravagant. No problem for those who can afford it, of course, but to use that as the starting point for basic existance is a bit much. Those who make quite a bit less can still live decently, that's the point.

[B0000rt]

I guess I just can't let myself be devoid of the pleasures of eating well and transit is not an option for a lot of people if they live outside of the city.

500 for car payment (financing) 120 insruance, 200 gas 50maintaince is 900 already

i'm not saying you need 3k+ to survive, but to have a middle class enough lifestyle.

today i spend 5.50 for luch, 4bucks for a starbucks already. ten bucks for dinner and maybe 6bucks for a drink tonite is $25 already. times 30 and its 750 already.


weekends cost more of course.

i guess everybody have different expectations, but i dont think my numbers are excessive or extravagant.
The car purchase, I can see there's a big chunk there, but I had sizable savings coming out of school, so there goes the $500/month financing for me...

The dinner and coffee aspect is where I can see that you can do without. A self made meal will cost half as much, and timmys also would.. Packing your own lunch will cost no more than $2 a day...

Only your numbers for food are excessive...

[tomincanada]

i'm not saying you need 3k+ to survive, but to have a middle class enough lifestyle.

i guess everybody have different expectations, but i dont think my numbers are excessive or extravagant.

Eating out every day isn't a middle class lifestyle. It's an expensive single guy lifestyle :)

Here in the "middle class" we go to a place called the "grocery store" that sells food for much cheaper than you are buying it. Before you get too excited - be forewarned that this food isn't cooked! You must prepare it.

Have a look in your single guy apartment - there will probably be a room with 3 or 4 big white boxes in it. This is your "refridgerator", "stove" and "dishwasher". These must be used in conjunction with the strange, uncooked food you have purchased in the "grocery store" - otherwise you will get sick and have to abstain from going out for a drink for a day or two !

4 bucks for a coffee?

[gilboman]

You did say above that $3,400 for a single person would just allow them to 'exist', which is where I think people are disagreeing with you.

Personally, I would consider eating lunch out, a $4 coffee, and a bar drink, every single day, to be extravagant. No problem for those who can afford it, of course, but to use that as the starting point for basic existance is a bit much. Those who make quite a bit less can still live decently, that's the point.

I see your point, I suppose i'm just saying with my expenses breakdown, the 3400 is still existing in that you arent really having much luxury (5dollar lunch and a coffee) or buying much toys and stuff, you are driving an economy car, eating at cheap places and not going clubbing or anything like that.

[gilboman]

The car purchase, I can see there's a big chunk there, but I had sizable savings coming out of school, so there goes the $500/month financing for me...

The dinner and coffee aspect is where I can see that you can do without. A self made meal will cost half as much, and timmys also would.. Packing your own lunch will cost no more than $2 a day...

Only your numbers for food are excessive...

i've been meaning to start packing lunch..but seems nobody in my dept does it and we all go out to get take out or smth... :o

[sockboy]

It is the fact that you used the word "existing" that got all the feedback. You can exist on way less than you stated. And as a single person you can live very WELL in a middle class lifesyle for less. Entire families live middle class lifestyles on what you are spending.

For your sake, I hope you make well over the $3400/month, because if that is how you blow all your income it is pretty sad. A few hundred less a month on food would buy you a nice vacation every year or a new computer, or whatever.

You say "transit is not an option for a lot of people if they live outside of the city"

Obviously, transit is not an option for people who don't live in the city, but people who don't live in the city also don't pay $1100/month to rent a condo!

[Bullseye]

I see your point, I suppose i'm just saying with my expenses breakdown, the 3400 is still existing in that you arent really having much luxury (5dollar lunch and a coffee) or buying much toys and stuff, you are driving an economy car, eating at cheap places and not going clubbing or anything like that.

$500/month gets you something quite a bit nicer than an economy car.

Part of it comes down to personal tastes as well. My brother is a young single guy, but he has no interests in clubs, toys and gadgets, or fancy restaurant bills. He just wants to be outdoors all the time, hiking, biking, etc. His costs for basic existance, as you term it, are probably drastically less than yours.

[gilboman]

Obviously, transit is not an option for people who don't live in the city, but people who don't live in the city also don't pay $1100/month to rent a condo!

it can and often does cost more actually!!.. a bachelor in Central York Region goes for 1100+ for a condo

[sockboy]

I see your point, I suppose i'm just saying with my expenses breakdown, the 3400 is still existing in that you arent really having much luxury (5dollar lunch and a coffee) or buying much toys and stuff, you are driving an economy car, eating at cheap places and not going clubbing or anything like that.

You are right, you really don't have much luxury for what you are spending. That is what everyone is so amazed about. It is pretty sad. Lets pretend that I'm single and bring home $3400/month, I would probably choose to spend it something like this:

$900 rent - including utilities, this doesn't sound bad for a small one bedroom apartment (condos are always more expensive to rent) in the inner city. As I am living inner city, I don't need a car that means:
$100 transit pass
$200 groceries
$100 phone/internet/cable
$100/month clothes
$300/month entertainment and eating out
$100 misc
TOTAL $1800

Now that leaves me with $1600/month!! What will I do with all that cash?? Lets say I save $600/month towards a downpayment on a house. That leaves me with $1000/month to up my lifestyle to be a bit more "luxurious". I could put away a couple of hundred a month for a vacation. I could spend a couple hundred on "toys", I could spend a couple hundred on a fancy pair of jeans. I could take a weekend to go skiing, etc etc. All this sounds way more exciting than having a starbucks everymorning and a beer at a bar each night.

[UrbanPoet]

i've been meaning to start packing lunch..but seems nobody in my dept does it and we all go out to get take out or smth... :o

do u have to eat lunch EVERY day?
Most of my co-workers chill out in the lunch room with homemade lunches. We got a TV with satelite, so i guess that encourages people to stay in.

[sockboy]

it can and often does cost more actually!!.. a bachelor in Central York Region goes for 1100+ for a condo

Sorry, different definition of "city". I was thinking city vs. country. As far as I know, there aren't too many condos in the country! And if you are paying $1100 to rent a condo in "Central York" then maybe you should re-evaluate to see if you are getting good value for your money! You could live much more central for the same amount.

[gilboman]

You are right, you really don't have much luxury for what you are spending. That is what everyone is so amazed about. It is pretty sad. Lets pretend that I'm single and bring home $3400/month, I would probably choose to spend it something like this:

$900 rent - including utilities, this doesn't sound bad for a small one bedroom apartment (condos are always more expensive to rent) in the inner city. As I am living inner city, I don't need a car that means:
$100 transit pass
$200 groceries
$100 phone/internet/cable
$100/month clothes
$300/month entertainment and eating out
$100 misc
TOTAL $1800

Now that leaves me with $1600/month!! What will I do with all that cash?? Lets say I save $600/month towards a downpayment on a house. That leaves me with $1000/month to up my lifestyle to be a bit more "luxurious". I could put away a couple of hundred a month for a vacation. I could spend a couple hundred on "toys", I could spend a couple hundred on a fancy pair of jeans. I could take a weekend to go skiing, etc etc. All this sounds way more exciting than having a starbucks everymorning and a beer at a bar each night.

try living in the city and commuting to downtown AURORA for work... 100 TTC pass, 175 GO Train, and 100 YRT pass.. thats extra 275 already, basic cell including fees/taxes is like 35dollars, internet is another 50, cable is like 40 for basic inclusive of taxes. and hontesly, a car is needed if you live/work outside of the city core which adds to the cost.

[netriones]

I never post hear, usually just lurk, but this thread surprised the $#!t, outta me. Is my perspective just really skewed because I live in Alberta, or am I just crazy thinking that making under $30,000/year is an absolute joke?

I couldnt even imagine how hard life would be at 30/year, never mind 20-25. If anyone here makes those rates, do yourself a favor, move to Edmonton, pick up a trade, and instantly make 50-60+/year as an apprentice, and it just goes up from there. Yea maybe sometimes the work isn't the easiest, or the hours are long. But I know alot of people that have trade jobs where the only work 50 or so hours per week, and make some decent coin still. I also know ALOT of people that do the ft mcmurray thing and work a helluva lotta hours but make 100k+/year. Yea cost of living might be a bit high in Edmonton, but its nothing like Vancouver, Calgary, or Toronto.

Even still if you hate labour work, try a phone support/helpdesk job like at TELUS, doesnt take much to get a job like that and they start at like $17/hour or so, with constant raises... and its union!

Its boggles my mind to hear what other people make and are willing to accept. I'm in Edmonton, work a pretty cushy desk job, that I enjoy for the most part, but make just under 50k/year, and I feel like I'm at the bottom of the barrel here (income wise).

Just thought I'd share some thoughts.

But what's the living expense? Consider only shelter and food.
Here in Ottawa, if live by myself, it cost around $800. If I share with roommate,it cost half as much.

[sockboy]

try living in the city and commuting to downtown AURORA for work... 100 TTC pass, 175 GO Train, and 100 YRT pass.. thats extra 275 already, basic cell including fees/taxes is like 35dollars, internet is another 50, cable is like 40 for basic inclusive of taxes. and hontesly, a car is needed if you live/work outside of the city core which adds to the cost.

The post that started all the discussion was you saying, "to live in toronto and be single, i'll say you need to net around 3.5-4k a month atleast".

Now it sounds like you don't work or live in Toronto! But lets still take a look at this. If I worked in Auroa, I would live in Aurora, and save money that way. But lets say you can't possibly live closer to work and NEED a car. As a single person, I really can't see how this would be the case, but lets go with it. Add $500/month for that car. (You should be able to get a car with payments of $300/mo). Adding that to my calculation, you still have $1100/month left. That is a lot of cash to make your life "more luxurious". You CHOOSE to spend that disposable income on coffee, drinks and food rather than on other things. If you chose differently, you'd be doing more than just "existing".

Edited to add: You can get phone, internet and cable for $100/month. If you can't you need to read RFD more!!

[R8247]

But what's the living expense? Consider only shelter and food.
Here in Ottawa, if live by myself, it cost around $800. If I share with roommate,it cost half as much.

This is comforting to know. lol

How much is transit in the capital?

[netriones]

This is comforting to know. lol

How much is transit in the capital?

Monthly adult Bus pass: $73 per month

[little-fish]

Monthly adult Bus pass: $73 per month

For a $121 monthly pass , you can ride the "rocket" in Toronto:D

[d-licious]

I have to agree with the person that said you need at least $3,400 to live in downtown GTA - here's one person siding with ya, buddy.

I net more than that and am struggling to keep expenses equal with what I bring in. Sad, indeed.

[qster]

try living in the city and commuting to downtown AURORA for work... 100 TTC pass, 175 GO Train, and 100 YRT pass.. thats extra 275 already, basic cell including fees/taxes is like 35dollars, internet is another 50, cable is like 40 for basic inclusive of taxes. and hontesly, a car is needed if you live/work outside of the city core which adds to the cost.

In this case, the smart choice would be to rent downtown. You'd have to have a pea brain to spend over $200 in transit costs and about 3 hours a day commuting to work.

I have to agree with the person that said you need at least $3,400 to live in downtown GTA - here's one person siding with ya, buddy.

I net more than that and am struggling to keep expenses equal with what I bring in. Sad, indeed.

You need to stop going out hitting the clubs and boozing every weekend before you start living pay cheque to pay cheque...then the bubble bursts.

$3400/month won't cut it if you don't account for taxes.
$57K/year is about $3400/month net after taxes... which would put you already about $20K above the average single earner.

[seadog83]

Wow. I'm really having a hard time reading a lot of these posts with a straight face. $3400 just to 'exist'? I was living in Sudbury (mid sized city, so on lower end of spectrum) but my monthly budget looked like this. I was there for about half a year for a co-op term and used it to get in shape financially and physically.

Rent: 330
Food: 120 (buy whats cheap, eat accordingly, freeze bulk discounted meat, get about ready to expire bread, and veggies)
Bus:15 (a few tickets, walk or bike everywhere else, was reasonably close to work)
Phone Cards: 10
Entertainment:25 (Magazine or 2, Tim's coffee now and then)
Miscleaneous: 20

I didn't eat out, I didn't drink, I basically just lived very minimalistically on $520/mth. Not the funnest time in my life, But very possible, and even still I could have gone cheaper. Phoning ppl, minimally entertaining myself, and miscellaneous were extras. I would have had less fun, but I certainly wouldn't have died or been particularly worse off. The sad thing is I was probably more comfortable than 3/4 the world. Its amazing how much crap ppl think they 'need'.

----

Average income near $40k? Its definitely in the low to mid 20's. Think of how many ppl 40+ you see working at Tims or other low paying jobs. Theres you're probably pushing around $15k/yr, and just think of how many thousands of that sort of job there are. Basically everyone in the consumer industry. Hell I have friends with degrees who are store managers, and they're only pulling like ~23k/yr, (11/hr). Theres definitely exceptions, but without a degree, even with a degree thats less in demand (eg religious studies) you're gonna have a hard time breaking 30k.

[alanbrenton]

I think my monthly cost for a family of three comes out to about $3,000/month including rental ($1,280) and gas/insurance/maintenance for a paid off 2002 Civic. It will be around $2,700 once I ween my daughter off the before and after daycare which costs $300 or so factoring tax deductibility.

How much rent do you have to fork out for the cheapest 1 bedroom + 1 den / 2 bedroom apartment in the GTA? I currently rent a condo ( 1 + den) in the Yonge/Finch area and am interested to know how much I am overpaying for the additional ammenities (swimming pool, crappy gym, security, covered parking garage, in-suite washing machine and dryer, and airconditioning in the summer).

The rental sites I've checked out show at least $900 for a 2 bedroom unit.

Is there a possibility of requesting private landlords to forego the yearly increase in rent?

[canadiandollars]

You win the "captain obvious" award.

lol

http://media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/captainobvious-30189.jpg

[UrbanPoet]

Wow. I'm really having a hard time reading a lot of these posts with a straight face. $3400 just to 'exist'? I was living in Sudbury (mid sized city, so on lower end of spectrum) but my monthly budget looked like this. I was there for about half a year for a co-op term and used it to get in shape financially and physically.

Rent: 330
Food: 120 (buy whats cheap, eat accordingly, freeze bulk discounted meat, get about ready to expire bread, and veggies)
Bus:15 (a few tickets, walk or bike everywhere else, was reasonably close to work)
Phone Cards: 10
Entertainment:25 (Magazine or 2, Tim's coffee now and then)
Miscleaneous: 20

I didn't eat out, I didn't drink, I basically just lived very minimalistically on $520/mth. Not the funnest time in my life, But very possible, and even still I could have gone cheaper. Phoning ppl, minimally entertaining myself, and miscellaneous were extras. I would have had less fun, but I certainly wouldn't have died or been particularly worse off. The sad thing is I was probably more comfortable than 3/4 the world. Its amazing how much crap ppl think they 'need'.

----

Average income near $40k? Its definitely in the low to mid 20's. Think of how many ppl 40+ you see working at Tims or other low paying jobs. Theres you're probably pushing around $15k/yr, and just think of how many thousands of that sort of job there are. Basically everyone in the consumer industry. Hell I have friends with degrees who are store managers, and they're only pulling like ~23k/yr, (11/hr). Theres definitely exceptions, but without a degree, even with a degree thats less in demand (eg religious studies) you're gonna have a hard time breaking 30k.

thats because your from a smaller city... in Toronto its different.

[seadog83]

Toronto isn't that much different on the low end. Halifax where I live is pretty well identical. Food's about the same, its very walkable/bikable, and if you look you can find a room for ~$300. Glancing at craigslist for 7 seconds I saw a few rooms for rent below $400 in Toronto. You don't 'need' a car. Hell you should be able to get by without even a transit pass in a city as dense as Toronto. But even still add $100 to rent for TO, add $60 more for a transit pass, another $50 for more expensive food and whatever else, and you'll still come in at under $750.

If you don't want to live like a starving student thats your prerogative and I have no problem, hell that was really just sort of an experiment on my part to save money and avoid eating less healthy restaurant meals/booze. I'm taking issue with ppl saying that its not possible to exist. That is they will become a stat like the unfortunate souls of Africa who die every few minutes on account of poor nutrition and no shelter without $4 coffees and a $800/mth car. Go have a conversation with them about what necessities are.

[Krox]

It also likely includes people with multimillion dollar salaries, which would affect the average.

Does StatsCan do a mean calculation as well as an average?

The median amount would be nice to know as well.

Although, I'm sure there are a lot more people working part-time at minimum wage jobs than there are people with million dollar plus salaries.

[canadiandollars]

The median amount would be nice to know as well.

Although, I'm sure there are a lot more people working part-time at minimum wage jobs than there are people with million dollar plus salaries.

median salaries:

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Country=Canada/Salary

[Krox]

median salaries:

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Country=Canada/Salary

I question some of the stats on this site. I do not know where they get their numbers from but here:

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Country=Canada/Salary/by_Age

They say the median salary for under 18 is almost $44k. These have to be some very rich teenagers.

[canadiandollars]

I question some of the stats on this site. I do not know where they get their numbers from but here:

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Country=Canada/Salary/by_Age

They say the median salary for under 18 is almost $44k. These have to be some very rich teenagers.

i wasn't even making 1/10 of that when i was under 18. Maybe a lot of these teenagers are 'employed' by their self employed parents. I know of a doctor who employs his kids to shovel the snow in his driveway. I heard he pays them $20K a year for this just so he can lower his taxes. I'm sure there's something wrong with doing this though!

[seadog83]

Yah payscale seems skewed. Look at the job titles you can narrow your search by: "Software Engineer / Developer / Programmer, Administrative Assistant, Sr. Software Engineer / Developer / Programmer, Project Manager, IT, Executive Assistant, Administrative / Office Manager, Operations Manager" They have production supervisor, production manager, but no production laborer. This site exists to give people an idea of salary where theres some variability in salary, and hence a more white collar or educated crowd. One positive thing about working at Tim's is you can be pretty sure you're not gonna get shortchanged on pay compared to your teammates because of poor negotiating skills.

I found this at statscan from census data: http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/famil105a.htm

Data only goes to 2005 but median income then was 25,400.

[Bullseye]

i wasn't even making 1/10 of that when i was under 18. Maybe a lot of these teenagers are 'employed' by their self employed parents. I know of a doctor who employs his kids to shovel the snow in his driveway. I heard he pays them $20K a year for this just so he can lower his taxes. I'm sure there's something wrong with doing this though!

I'll bet your guess is correct, at least to some degree.

And no, there is nothing wrong with what the doctor is doing, as long as he is paying his kids reasonable compensation. If he says he is paying $20k per year for 'annual landscape maintenance', that might be reasonable depending on the size of his property.

Of course, it may save him on taxes, but that money is still gone out of his pocket, unless he is paying it to his kids then taking it back for himself! Most likely, it goes to a school fund or something like that.

[qster]

I question some of the stats on this site. I do not know where they get their numbers from but here:

http://www.payscale.com/research/CA/Country=Canada/Salary/by_Age

They say the median salary for under 18 is almost $44k. These have to be some very rich teenagers.

The problem with this site is that they only took a ramdom sample of 10 people in the "under 18" category and they did not specify where these people were in Ontario and Alberta. It might be accurate for the 10 people they sampled but not for the majority. They had a 6 male avg. of $54K and 3 female avg. of only $15K. So either there are some rich teens making money via the internet or some tech startup or there are some BS'ers.

[ultra_nYo]

Wow I knew the cost of living was higher in some parts of Canada but damn its pretty crazy in places like TO and what not.

Combined with my girlfriend we make about $2400 a month. Which some of you people seem to think is pretty pathetic. We live in a pretty nice apartment in a nice part of town. We have a car, have plenty of food in the fridge, and we live pretty comfortably, we're also able to save a good amount of money each month. Of course we live in Winnipeg where the cost of living is pretty low here. I know that kind of money would mean we'd be struggling in other parts of Canada but here we live really well.

[qster]

Combined with my girlfriend we make about $2400 a month.

You guys are probably younger, but good for you guys for sticking to a budget and living within your means.

I'm in a two income earner situation with a third on the way and that amount would only put a dent into our monthly budget. Granted that our family income net after taxes is greater, but you know the saying... the more you make, the more you spend on luxury items...


Toronto isn't that much different on the low end. Halifax where I live is pretty well identical. Food's about the same, its very walkable/bikable, and if you look you can find a room for ~$300. Glancing at craigslist for 7 seconds I saw a few rooms for rent below $400 in Toronto. You don't 'need' a car. Hell you should be able to get by without even a transit pass in a city as dense as Toronto. But even still add $100 to rent for TO, add $60 more for a transit pass, another $50 for more expensive food and whatever else, and you'll still come in at under $750.

What are you smoking??? Toronto and Halifax are two different worlds.
Big City... a $300-400 place in Toronto would probably be some sty or in a seedy area of the city.

[B0000rt]

Wow I knew the cost of living was higher in some parts of Canada but damn its pretty crazy in places like TO and what not.

Combined with my girlfriend we make about $2400 a month. Which some of you people seem to think is pretty pathetic. We live in a pretty nice apartment in a nice part of town. We have a car, have plenty of food in the fridge, and we live pretty comfortably, we're also able to save a good amount of money each month. Of course we live in Winnipeg where the cost of living is pretty low here. I know that kind of money would mean we'd be struggling in other parts of Canada but here we live really well.
With that amount of money, how much do you actually save from it though? I safely say I save more than 50% of my income a month....

[shaolinmonk]

You are right, you really don't have much luxury for what you are spending. That is what everyone is so amazed about. It is pretty sad. Lets pretend that I'm single and bring home $3400/month, I would probably choose to spend it something like this:

$900 rent - including utilities, this doesn't sound bad for a small one bedroom apartment (condos are always more expensive to rent) in the inner city. As I am living inner city, I don't need a car that means:
$100 transit pass
$200 groceries
$100 phone/internet/cable
$100/month clothes
$300/month entertainment and eating out
$100 misc
TOTAL $1800

Now that leaves me with $1600/month!! What will I do with all that cash?? Lets say I save $600/month towards a downpayment on a house. That leaves me with $1000/month to up my lifestyle to be a bit more "luxurious". I could put away a couple of hundred a month for a vacation. I could spend a couple hundred on "toys", I could spend a couple hundred on a fancy pair of jeans. I could take a weekend to go skiing, etc etc. All this sounds way more exciting than having a starbucks everymorning and a beer at a bar each night.

once you add in rsp's, mutual funds, and other investments .. it disappears fast.. but i agree.. $3400 a month is pretty comfortable...

[speeeeee]

i live in richmond hill and take the go train to work... $160 a month in GO TRAIN FEEES + I still go through atleast 2-3 tankes of gas on my suburar impreza which is 60 a tank....+190 a month insurance... luckly my cars paid for .. or id also be in trouble.

AND YES I COMMUTE 3 hours a fckin day... reaks big time:evil:

[ultra_nYo]

With that amount of money, how much do you actually save from it though? I safely say I save more than 50% of my income a month....

We don't save a ton but every little bit counts. Our living expenses not including entertainment would probably come out to about $1000 a month. Changes from month to month depending on other expenses. Such as car insurance and the junk. We could potentially save about 50% if we didn't spend on entertainment but that'd be boring so we could save around $600 or so a month. We are fairly young though so its a decent amount I think.

[bcbgboy13]

http://finance.sympatico.msn.ca/Investing/CanadianBusiness/Article.aspx?cp-documentid=5957256

[UrbanPoet]

I think a single person can live comfortably in Toronto on $35k/yr

[coolspot]

I think a single person can live comfortably in Toronto on $35k/yr

It's all relative... 35K you won't strave, but it's by no means lavish. I might even quantify "comfortable"... because with 35K you're still quite limited in what you can do. For example, buying a house may be out of reach. Supporting a family is pretty tough on that salary. Yearly vacations ... may or may not be possible. Dining out weekly (or more than once weekly) may stretch the budget.

However, I think a lot of people on RFD come from well off families... so I guess our viewpoint is quite bias.

[unleashed]

It's all relative... 35K you won't strave, but it's by no means lavish. I might even quantify "comfortable"... because with 35K you're still quite limited in what you can do. For example, buying a house may be out of reach. Supporting a family is pretty tough on that salary. Yearly vacations ... may or may not be possible. Dining out weekly (or more than once weekly) may stretch the budget.

However, I think a lot of people on RFD come from well off families... so I guess our viewpoint is quite bias.

Wouldn't a person making 40K/ year starting off take home around 33k after taxes anyways?.

[gilboman]

Wouldn't a person making 40K/ year starting off take home around 33k after taxes anyways?.

NOOO....you need to be making about 50k a year to take home 33k net

[7cal]

I'm living in Edmonton and 35k / year would be almost undoable.

My advice to high school kids or people still not heavily into a career: if you have computer aptitutde, do a 2-year program at a reputable local technology school. I went to NAIT here in Edmonton when I was 27, graduated at 29, and 6 years later am doing quite well (salary not at 6 figures but not far away).

Granted not everyone will be lucky enough to land a good job that pays quite that well right away, but again in Alberta it is definitely not a pipe dream. Put in your two years in focusing on software side. Don't bother with hardware / networking- the salaries are going to be way lower than if you are a systems / business analyst.

Also as an alaternative, if you are out of high school and want to just travel, have fun, and earn some coin, go teach English in Japan. I did that for 7 years during the 90s. Great times, good money (although the dollar was weaker back then, making the money you earned in Yen worth more), and a total blast. As a Canadian you can get a working holiday visa which allows you to work in the country, and you need no qualifications to teach as it is basically 'conversational English'- just be a native English speaker. Anyways food for thought- especially if you're a high school kid thinking 25 k / year is a lot of money, you could make way more than that with no trouble in Japan.

[Embolus]

I'm living in Edmonton and 35k / year would be almost undoable.

My advice to high school kids or people still not heavily into a career: if you have computer aptitutde, do a 2-year program at a reputable local technology school. I went to NAIT here in Edmonton when I was 27, graduated at 29, and 6 years later am doing quite well (salary not at 6 figures but not far away).

Granted not everyone will be lucky enough to land a good job that pays quite that well right away, but again in Alberta it is definitely not a pipe dream. Put in your two years in focusing on software side. Don't bother with hardware / networking- the salaries are going to be way lower than if you are a systems / business analyst.

Also as an alaternative, if you are out of high school and want to just travel, have fun, and earn some coin, go teach English in Japan. I did that for 7 years during the 90s. Great times, good money (although the dollar was weaker back then, making the money you earned in Yen worth more), and a total blast. As a Canadian you can get a working holiday visa which allows you to work in the country, and you need no qualifications to teach as it is basically 'conversational English'- just be a native English speaker. Anyways food for thought- especially if you're a high school kid thinking 25 k / year is a lot of money, you could make way more than that with no trouble in Japan.

It seems as if everyone and their mother's backup plan is just to go teach English in another country these days........

Im sure there are people who genuinely want to do it and put a lot of effort to do their best in working with the children,,,,,but then again, I'm sure there are ppl that just do it for the sake of doing it b/c its the "cool" thing to do. As was said, the qualifications arn't very stringent, which concerns me since you are teaching children at a young age, I'm sure their experience at such a age can influence their language development in the future. If they just get some "average joe" teaching it b/c it's cool, and not really committing themselves to it long term......:confused:

[7cal]

It seems as if everyone and their mother's backup plan is just to go teach English in another country these days........

Im sure there are people who genuinely want to do it and put a lot of effort to do their best in working with the children,,,,,but then again, I'm sure there are ppl that just do it for the sake of doing it b/c its the "cool" thing to do. As was said, the qualifications arn't very stringent, which concerns me since you are teaching children at a young age, I'm sure their experience at such a age can influence their language development in the future. If they just get some "average joe" teaching it b/c it's cool, and not really committing themselves to it long term......:confused:

Actually, you're not teaching children. 90% of the average English teacher's students are adults- unless you actually go to teach at a junior high or high school, in which case the requirements are more stringent.

Teaching conversational English is just that- you're teaching conversational skills. What that means for the average student in Japan is that they've had 6 years of English in junior high and high school, and their vocabulary and grammar may be just fine. But they've never had the opportunity to talk to a native speaker. What they need is: listening practice (ie "real" English, not the measured cadence of a school-room ESL teacher), and a chance to practice using their English. Of course, they do learn grammar and vocabulary in most lessons, but that's not the main attraction of going to these schools.

Furthermore, for a lot of students there, English is a "hobby". It's something fun for housewives to do, to get out of the house a few afternoons a week, and meet new people. And by new people, not necessarily their instructors, but other Japanese students in the class. For some businessmen who come at night, it's again a way to enjoy themselves in a social setting, in a way they get neither at work nor at home. Most English schools have 'lounges' which are informal rooms with a few sofas, loveseats, etc, where students can just come and hang out, chat in English, play some board games or cards, etc. They're not there for the strict grammatical lessons that come from a licensed school-marm type pro. They want to hang out and practice English.

All that said, of course there are students there who want a more formalized approach, and depending on the school, some focus on that more than others. But by and large, the ESL industry in Japan is very 'conversation' focused. No need to get bent out of shape about affecting the language development of a nation's youth.

[Bullseye]

NOOO....you need to be making about 50k a year to take home 33k net

No, the other poster is much closer to being correct. In Ontario, at least, $40k would net you nearly 33k. $50k would net you almost $40k.

If you're really interested, I can pull up some returns I've done for people and get exact numbers.

[R8247]

No, the other poster is much closer to being correct. In Ontario, at least, $40k would net you nearly 33k. $50k would net you almost $40k.

If you're really interested, I can pull up some returns I've done for people and get exact numbers.

^^^^

What he said. Don't forget to adjust for pension, EI, union, and all that fun stuff ..... :mad:

http://www.ey.com/GLOBAL/content.nsf/Canada/Tax_-_Calculators_-_2007_Personal_Tax

[gilboman]

No, the other poster is much closer to being correct. In Ontario, at least, $40k would net you nearly 33k. $50k would net you almost $40k.

If you're really interested, I can pull up some returns I've done for people and get exact numbers.

i guess i need to say after EI/CPP too.

[Bullseye]

i guess i need to say after EI/CPP too.

EI and CPP combined max out at around $2500 per year, so would still not turn your $50k into anything nearly as low as $33k.

Checking my file here, looks like $40k will mean $6500 in Fed/ON taxes, $1,800 in CPP, and $800 in EI, for a net of almost exactly $31k.

[lip]

[QUOTE=tomincanada;6238683]TO has a good subway systemQUOTE]

You are joking, yes?

TO has probably one of the worst subway systems in the world...

LIP

[tomincanada]

You are joking, yes?
TO has probably one of the worst subway systems in the world...
LIP

Good might not be the best term but it's functional at least. I know people who don't have cars in TO and manage ok.

It's better than the subway system in London.. I'll tell you that much.

[hyoo82]

http://www.ey.com/GLOBAL/content.nsf/Canada/Tax_-_Calculators_-_2007_Personal_Tax

cool, im not payin that much tax, after I enter my salary for this year. haha.. i am paying almost x2 what I paid last year, which would make sense, since I earn almost double that I made last year :P

[coolspot]

It's better than the subway system in London.. I'll tell you that much.

London's underground goes everywhere!

[tomincanada]

London's underground goes everywhere!

Not the london I was talking about :cheesygri

[UrbanPoet]

It's all relative... 35K you won't strave, but it's by no means lavish. I might even quantify "comfortable"... because with 35K you're still quite limited in what you can do. For example, buying a house may be out of reach. Supporting a family is pretty tough on that salary. Yearly vacations ... may or may not be possible. Dining out weekly (or more than once weekly) may stretch the budget.

However, I think a lot of people on RFD come from well off families... so I guess our viewpoint is quite bias.

$35k/yr can get you an apartment, food, spending money, and an economy car with a small amount of savings.

[Dr_luv]

I made $48,000 plus a few hundred here or there in 2007 and I only worked 7 months.

I shudder to think what would happen to me if I made average income, I would not be able to pull off what I just did.

How is the move back to Engineering school going? By the way, I wanted to thank you for some advise a while back. You advised me to move out west and PMed me a list of companies to send my resume too. I got an entry level job soon after and moved out to Calgary, six months later got the exact job I wanted in the same company, the only thing was that I hate the weather and would prefer to be closer to all my friends. Guess what? I was just offered a transfer with a raise to TO.....

Thanks again bud! Good luck getting the ring, but with the determination you have show I don't think it will be a problem.

[SizzleChest]

a few days ago (friday i believe) on the front page of the province newspaper, there was the results of a study of average incomes per person in BC. it was $41,xxx compared to a whopping $53 less in 1983. people around here live they have an extra zero on the end of their annual income.

[DBOi]

I like to know, some of the replies were 40k - 50k
but are these new grads or people with 10-20+ yrs of experience?

Thanks

I guess it'd probably differ depending on your career path

[pitz]

a few days ago (friday i believe) on the front page of the province newspaper, there was the results of a study of average incomes per person in BC. it was $41,xxx compared to a whopping $53 less in 1983. people around here live they have an extra zero on the end of their annual income.

Yes, its true that real (inflation-adjusted) incomes in Canada haven't grown.

For many groups, they've actually gone down. For instance, in another thread, I posted that, over the past 20 years, engineering salaries in at least one province in Canada have shrunk by 5% since 1987.

[dairymandip]

I like to know, some of the replies were 40k - 50k
but are these new grads or people with 10-20+ yrs of experience?

Thanks

I guess it'd probably differ depending on your career path

could be, most work places give you a salary increase yearly so even if its just a 1,000 over the years it adds up.

[xcentric]

bump. interesting thread. im pretty much just into travelling, and automotives. im quite cheap in other areas, which isnt a wise investment. but anyways,

how about people that can afford 60k bmw 335s, or almost 200k audi r8s, AMGs, porsches, etc?

i believe housing and/or your means of transportation perhaps should not exceed a 3rd of your gross/net income?

[coolspot]

how about people that can afford 60k bmw 335s, or almost 200k audi r8s, AMGs, porsches, etc?

i believe housing and/or your means of transportation perhaps should not exceed a 3rd of your gross/net income?

They:

1. Lease the car
2. Don't save any money

Say you make 60 - 70K year, that means a monthly salary of 3 - 4K. Leasing one of these cars cost ~1500 - 2000 a month, so that still leaves 1000- 2000 for other expenses. So you could have a place, go out, and drive a nice car, it just means you're not saving money.

[a2shuzy]

All I can say is..
I pay 1k~1.5k for the gas. (08 Accord)
I am not going to say bye bye to my parents until I buy a smart car!!!
They are my insurance policy.

[bacid1]

They:

1. Lease the car
2. Don't save any money

Say you make 60 - 70K year, that means a monthly salary of 3 - 4K. Leasing one of these cars cost ~1500 - 2000 a month, so that still leaves 1000- 2000 for other expenses. So you could have a place, go out, and drive a nice car, it just means you're not saving money.



That's right.. pretty much all expensive cars are leased.

Ex. a 2008 BMW 550 leased is slightly around 1.2-1.5k depending on options

[airodus]

They:

1. Lease the car
2. Don't save any money



What about rich people?

[v1etnammer]

What combined yearly salary would qualify you as "middle-classed" if you were to live in the GTA (say, Mississauga)? Middle-classed as in semi-detached/single home, two economic cars, travelling once a year for vacation etc etc. Also, what would you consider the cut-offs between low-income/middle-class/well-off/rich for those living in the GTA in terms of yearly salary for married couples without kids and with kids?

[Bullseye]

What combined yearly salary would qualify you as "middle-classed" if you were to live in the GTA (say, Mississauga)? Middle-classed as in semi-detached/single home, two economic cars, travelling once a year for vacation etc etc. Also, what would you consider the cut-offs between low-income/middle-class/well-off/rich for those living in the GTA in terms of yearly salary for married couples without kids and with kids?

I'd say it depends a lot on when they bought their house. When we bought seven years ago, houses were relatively cheap, so we live a middle class lifestyle for cheaper than someone just buying now.

For a young couple just starting out, buying an average 'middle class' house for $400k, with 5% down, would require a combined income of $100k to qualify at the standard 32% max GDSR.

[coolspot]

What about rich people?

Depends, but I would say their company pays for the car, so it would be leased.

Otherwise they would lease on their own like everyone else or pay cash for the car to reduce interest payments if they plan on keeping the car.

Rich people don't spend too much on their cars proportionately speaking. They may drive a nice car, but % of income, it's much less than the average person. Rich people save their money and spend it on more important things like investments, real estate, etc. That's how they build their wealth.

What combined yearly salary would qualify you as "middle-classed" if you were to live in the GTA (say, Mississauga)? Middle-classed as in semi-detached/single home, two economic cars, travelling once a year for vacation etc etc. Also, what would you consider the cut-offs between low-income/middle-class/well-off/rich for those living in the GTA in terms of yearly salary for married couples without kids and with kids?

I would guess middle-class in GTA would be 100 - 250K a year. Upper-middle class, maybe 250K+.

You could get by OK with 80K a year in the GTA, but it'll be tight with 2 cars + house + vacation + savings.

[lasallejai]

You could get by OK with 80K a year in the GTA, but it'll be tight with 2 cars + house + vacation + savings.

Well, my wife and I both work and our combined income is around $150,000, but after tax we still find our cash flow a bit wanting for a family of three living in Toronto. We contribute max to our RRSP's and to our son's RESP each year, and our son's pre-school tuition fee is about $11,000 a year. We have two cars and one is paid off. Mortgage is not hugh but it is there. Condo fee is outrageous going up every year and is now at $610 a month. Property tax seems to go up every year too. Our auto insurance premium is super crazy at around $6,000 a year, not because we are bad drivers with terrible driving records, but due to the fact that my wife did not get her driver's license until a few years ago with no previous insurance experience. We live very modestly, but we can hardly set aside a fixed portion of our take home income on a steady basis. I really do not know how people can afford leasing those expansive cars for over a thousand dollars a month, because my car payment is about $500 a month for 6 years, and I already feel it is quite a bit. Current gasoline cost does not help either when we still have to spend over $300 a month after cutting all weekend day trips we used to do almost every weekend when weather permitted. I really do not know where else to cut for saving that extra % of our take home income monthly. By the way, I am self-employed and my wife's emploer has not got her any group benefits yet so we are paying for privately owned health and dental plan through Manulife and it costs about $350 a month for three of us. We also pay for privately owned life and disability insurance too. They all add up and before we know, after our fixed expanses, our disposable income is quite minute when compared to our gross.>:(

[airodus]

Well, my wife and I both work and our combined income is around $150,000, but after tax we still find our cash flow a bit wanting for a family of three living in Toronto. We contribute max to our RRSP's and to our son's RESP each year, and our son's pre-school tuition fee is about $11,000 a year. We have two cars and one is paid off. Mortgage is not hugh but it is there. Condo fee is outrageous going up every year and is now at $610 a month. Property tax seems to go up every year too. Our auto insurance premium is super crazy at around $6,000 a year, not because we are bad drivers with terrible driving records, but due to the fact that my wife did not get her driver's license until a few years ago with no previous insurance experience. We live very modestly, but we can hardly set aside a fixed portion of our take home income on a steady basis. I really do not know how people can afford leasing those expansive cars for over a thousand dollars a month, because my car payment is about $500 a month for 6 years, and I already feel it is quite a bit. Current gasoline cost does not help either when we still have to spend over $300 a month after cutting all weekend day trips we used to do almost every weekend when weather permitted. I really do not know where else to cut for saving that extra % of our take home income monthly. By the way, I am self-employed and my wife's emploer has not got her any group benefits yet so we are paying for privately owned health and dental plan through Manulife and it costs about $350 a month for three of us. We also pay for privately owned life and disability insurance too. They all add up and before we know, after our fixed expanses, our disposable income is quite minute when compared to our gross.>:(

Seems pretty easy to fix, it's whether you're willing to or not. Judging by the nature of your post, and the information you divulged, I think that deep down you will agree with the following points. I hope that you are just looking for some positive reinforcement, so I'll be pretty frank.

- get rid of the 2nd car (saves payments, maintenance, gas and parking)
- wife should carpool or take public transit, and get insurance as a secondary driver on your other car (this will cheaply build her insurance history so that she can be primary in a few years without a huge premium, and she can still drive)
- think about moving condos because your condo fees are very high. this may or may not be realistic depending on your situation
- $11,000 is too much for pre-school. that is equivalent to university tuition if not more. pre-school is not a necessity nor is private school when he gets to that age (tho there is an argument for private school, public school in Canada is actually very good)

The crux of the matter is that because you can afford to, you are making some economically unsound decisions. If you could not afford to, you would not be doing these. Just because you can afford to, doesn't mean you should.

The only way to save up is to live below your means (LBYM). Once you do that, your means will start to grow and you can do more and more while still LBYM (a multi-millionaire can live quite extravagantly below his means).

It's possible too, once you set your priorities. I make an enormous amount of money, but live middle class (lifestyle requires an average salary to sustain). I save and invest 90% of what I make and it grows very quickly (the more money you have, the more lucrative your opportunities will be). I am happy with my car and house and buy whatever I need. But I am careful to separate wants from needs (I might want a Ferrari, but don't need one. I might want a mansion, but don't need one. I might want designer clothes, but don't need them). And once I accepted that, I have been quite happy living an average life, not ever worrying about money, security or employment, and actually take great pride and pleasure watching my money grow. I grew up lower-middle class, and grew up quite happy. So I know that throwing away money is not gonna make me any happier and also that sacrifice makes you stronger.

I'm 27 and can retire wealthy on passive income right now. That feeling is worth more to me than any amount of conspicuous consumption ever would.

[aznangel]

wow....27 ...
i'm only 20

this makes me want to start saving extensively...
but i completely agree with your wants and needs thing

also
i would highly recommend cutting out the 11000 schooling...that really is uni equivalent in terms of pricing

you really don't need that kind of "high class" education until they hit their upper years, so late middle school or high school....

[nalababe]

Seems pretty easy to fix, it's whether you're willing to or not. Judging by the nature of your post, and the information you divulged, I think that deep down you will agree with the following points. I hope that you are just looking for some positive reinforcement, so I'll be pretty frank.

- get rid of the 2nd car (saves payments, maintenance, gas and parking)
- wife should carpool or take public transit, and get insurance as a secondary driver on your other car (this will cheaply build her insurance history so that she can be primary in a few years without a huge premium, and she can still drive)
- think about moving condos because your condo fees are very high. this may or may not be realistic depending on your situation
- $11,000 is too much for pre-school. that is equivalent to university tuition if not more. pre-school is not a necessity nor is private school when he gets to that age (tho there is an argument for private school, public school in Canada is actually very good)

The crux of the matter is that because you can afford to, you are making some economically unsound decisions. If you could not afford to, you would not be doing these. Just because you can afford to, doesn't mean you should.

The only way to save up is to live below your means (LBYM). Once you do that, your means will start to grow and you can do more and more while still LBYM (a multi-millionaire can live quite extravagantly below his means).

It's possible too, once you set your priorities. I make an enormous amount of money, but live middle class (lifestyle requires an average salary to sustain). I save and invest 90% of what I make and it grows very quickly (the more money you have, the more lucrative your opportunities will be). I am happy with my car and house and buy whatever I need. But I am careful to separate wants from needs (I might want a Ferrari, but don't need one. I might want a mansion, but don't need one. I might want designer clothes, but don't need them). And once I accepted that, I have been quite happy living an average life, not ever worrying about money, security or employment, and actually take great pride and pleasure watching my money grow. I grew up lower-middle class, and grew up quite happy. So I know that throwing away money is not gonna make me any happier and also that sacrifice makes you stronger.

I'm 27 and can retire wealthy on passive income right now. That feeling is worth more to me than any amount of conspicuous consumption ever would.



If the Preschool includes looking after the kid from 7:30 am until 6:00 pm (our preschool was daycare/preschool) then this is cheap. Standard daycare is 1300 for a toddler a month for an average daycare facility in mid-Toronto, down to 1000 or so when in preschool. A montesorri or specialty facility would cost more. Even at this rate there can be up to a one year waiting list.
have a lot left over for non-necessities.

[lasallejai]

If the Preschool includes looking after the kid from 7:30 am until 6:00 pm (our preschool was daycare/preschool) then this is cheap. Standard daycare is 1300 for a toddler a month for an average daycare facility in mid-Toronto, down to 1000 or so when in preschool. A montesorri or specialty facility would cost more. Even at this rate there can be up to a one year waiting list.
have a lot left over for non-necessities.

Yes, the day care close to my office actually costs $1,020 a month for my three years old son, and that is why we have decided to send him to pre-school instead for about $900 a month. I can drop him off any time after 7:30AM but have to pick him up before 5PM. 6PM is possible but an additional $60 a month is required and we opt out of that since I work close by.

[lasallejai]

Seems pretty easy to fix, it's whether you're willing to or not. Judging by the nature of your post, and the information you divulged, I think that deep down you will agree with the following points. I hope that you are just looking for some positive reinforcement, so I'll be pretty frank.

- get rid of the 2nd car (saves payments, maintenance, gas and parking)
- wife should carpool or take public transit, and get insurance as a secondary driver on your other car (this will cheaply build her insurance history so that she can be primary in a few years without a huge premium, and she can still drive)
- think about moving condos because your condo fees are very high. this may or may not be realistic depending on your situation
- $11,000 is too much for pre-school. that is equivalent to university tuition if not more. pre-school is not a necessity nor is private school when he gets to that age (tho there is an argument for private school, public school in Canada is actually very good)

The crux of the matter is that because you can afford to, you are making some economically unsound decisions. If you could not afford to, you would not be doing these. Just because you can afford to, doesn't mean you should.

The only way to save up is to live below your means (LBYM). Once you do that, your means will start to grow and you can do more and more while still LBYM (a multi-millionaire can live quite extravagantly below his means).

It's possible too, once you set your priorities. I make an enormous amount of money, but live middle class (lifestyle requires an average salary to sustain). I save and invest 90% of what I make and it grows very quickly (the more money you have, the more lucrative your opportunities will be). I am happy with my car and house and buy whatever I need. But I am careful to separate wants from needs (I might want a Ferrari, but don't need one. I might want a mansion, but don't need one. I might want designer clothes, but don't need them). And once I accepted that, I have been quite happy living an average life, not ever worrying about money, security or employment, and actually take great pride and pleasure watching my money grow. I grew up lower-middle class, and grew up quite happy. So I know that throwing away money is not gonna make me any happier and also that sacrifice makes you stronger.

I'm 27 and can retire wealthy on passive income right now. That feeling is worth more to me than any amount of conspicuous consumption ever would.

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions! Please allow me to elaborate a little more here.

The second car is a fairly old car I have driven mostly in winter time in the past due to its all wheel drive ability and it is almost 11 years old. Getting rid of it does not really make a hugh difference in term of premium cost. My wife drives the newer car(2 years old), because I want her to have a more reliable car when she drives by herself, or with our son. It is not a fancy car, by any means, but a mid size family four door front wheel drive. My wife does take the TTC to work in down town, or our gasoline bill won't be around $300, and she would have to pay for hefty parking down there too. I have to drive though, because I need the car to see and service my clients frequently on a daily basis. The main reason we keep two cars is because when I am out working she is still able to go out for errand runs with our 3 years old son, and occasionally visit my mother and drive her around(she is 83 years old). I do not work 9 to 5 so for many evenings I am out with my car. We do not live on the subway line so it would be rather hard for her to take TTC with our son tagging along shopping bags and the stroller, especially in winter time when it snows.

We are indeed thinking about moving since our mortgage will be paid off in a few more years, but for now we are waiting till the real estate market to correct a bit, which is very likely in the next year or so.

The pre-school part, if you read my previous post, then you would understand that we do it because it is actually cheaper than sending him to a day care facility. My mother is 83 years old and she just does not have the ability to look after our son. My wife's parents are in Hong Kong so no other person can look after our son while we are at work. That is the very reason why our son is in pre-school. Day care actually costs more!:confused:

[airodus]

Thanks for the ideas and suggestions! Please allow me to elaborate a little more here.

The second car is a fairly old car I have driven mostly in winter time in the past due to its all wheel drive ability and it is almost 11 years old. Getting rid of it does not really make a hugh difference in term of premium cost. My wife drives the newer car(2 years old), because I want her to have a more reliable car when she drives by herself, or with our son. It is not a fancy car, by any means, but a mid size family four door front wheel drive. My wife does take the TTC to work in down town, or our gasoline bill won't be around $300, and she would have to pay for hefty parking down there too. I have to drive though, because I need the car to see and service my clients frequently on a daily basis. The main reason we keep two cars is because when I am out working she is still able to go out for errand runs with our 3 years old son, and occasionally visit my mother and drive her around(she is 83 years old). I do not work 9 to 5 so for many evenings I am out with my car. We do not live on the subway line so it would be rather hard for her to take TTC with our son tagging along shopping bags and the stroller, especially in winter time when it snows.


OK, I understand the child care costs and don't have much experience with that. The only suggestion I can think of is to pay another stay at home mom to take care of your son for you (I know of a few moms who run a mini day care service for friends and family for very reasonable rates). Housing you are already looking into (look into moving along the subway to make the TTC more accessible).

I still think the car is an issue. It seems like you should be able to find a way to make it work with 1 car, since it sounds like your wife does not need to drive everyday. You will actually need to think really hard here because the way I see it, you will save 6k on leasing and thousands more on insurance and incidentals (check the difference between insuring her as a secondary driver on your older car vs what she is paying now).

She already makes good use of the TTC. When the TTC is not feasible, she can always get a cab or use an autosharing service (for example http://www.autoshare.com/ ). When you think about it, saving 10k on car costs will more than pay for any incidental car rentals and cab fares for the year.

I also assume that being self employed, you are writing off a portion of your mortgage, condo fees and utilities as a home office expense? Also, the newer car would be better under your name since you can write off lease payment, insurance and driving costs as well.

I've lived in Toronto with a modest income (40k) and know many other people who do as well. So I am very confident that your family should be able to survive and then some on a $150,000 income. You can consider your RRSP, RESP and mortgage payments as a form of saving, but I'm sure more can be done.

There's a very famous strategy called "Pay yourself first". What this means is that you allocate a portion of your income to personal savings BEFORE expenses. So for example, say you decide to pay yourself 10% of your income first. Take $1250 a month (or whatever it is after tax) and stick it in the bank (or some investment). That money is now inaccessible. Now put money into your RRSP, RESP, mortgage, condo fees, car payments, insurance, preschool, gas, food, etc. Then spend whatever is left over and see if you notice a big difference in life. Most of the time people don't even notice the 10% they put away. It sounds infeasible, but it really does work.

The difference is kind of like this:

You are bored and have an extra $50 in your wallet. So you decide to take the family out to a movie, get some popcorn, etc.

You are bored and have an extra $10 in your wallet. So you decide to go to Blockbuster, rent a movie, get some microwave popcorn, etc.

At the end of the day, you haven't really given up anything. And this is an illustration of, just because you can doesn't mean you should.

[airodus]

Here is an actual article on pay yourself first. It was the first on a google search, so there might be better out there.

http://beginnersinvest.about.com/cs/personalfinance1/a/051701a.htm

[lasallejai]

OK, I understand the child care costs and don't have much experience with that. The only suggestion I can think of is to pay another stay at home mom to take care of your son for you (I know of a few moms who run a mini day care service for friends and family for very reasonable rates). Housing you are already looking into (look into moving along the subway to make the TTC more accessible).

I still think the car is an issue. It seems like you should be able to find a way to make it work with 1 car, since it sounds like your wife does not need to drive everyday. You will actually need to think really hard here because the way I see it, you will save 6k on leasing and thousands more on insurance and incidentals (check the difference between insuring her as a secondary driver on your older car vs what she is paying now).

She already makes good use of the TTC. When the TTC is not feasible, she can always get a cab or use an autosharing service (for example http://www.autoshare.com/ ). When you think about it, saving 10k on car costs will more than pay for any incidental car rentals and cab fares for the year.

I also assume that being self employed, you are writing off a portion of your mortgage, condo fees and utilities as a home office expense? Also, the newer car would be better under your name since you can write off lease payment, insurance and driving costs as well.

I've lived in Toronto with a modest income (40k) and know many other people who do as well. So I am very confident that your family should be able to survive and then some on a $150,000 income. You can consider your RRSP, RESP and mortgage payments as a form of saving, but I'm sure more can be done.

There's a very famous strategy called "Pay yourself first". What this means is that you allocate a portion of your income to personal savings BEFORE expenses. So for example, say you decide to pay yourself 10% of your income first. Take $1250 a month (or whatever it is after tax) and stick it in the bank (or some investment). That money is now inaccessible. Now put money into your RRSP, RESP, mortgage, condo fees, car payments, insurance, preschool, gas, food, etc. Then spend whatever is left over and see if you notice a big difference in life. Most of the time people don't even notice the 10% they put away. It sounds infeasible, but it really does work.

The difference is kind of like this:

You are bored and have an extra $50 in your wallet. So you decide to take the family out to a movie, get some popcorn, etc.

You are bored and have an extra $10 in your wallet. So you decide to go to Blockbuster, rent a movie, get some microwave popcorn, etc.

At the end of the day, you haven't really given up anything. And this is an illustration of, just because you can doesn't mean you should.


Nope, if I had to get rid of one car it would be the older car for two reasons: (1) I do not know how long my older car will last, because more and more minor problems surface after 10 years of good labour on his part. (2) My wife does not know how to drive standard and my older car is a standard transy one. That is why I said the insurance premium won't change much, because as my wife would be the secondary driver for a discount I would have to claim the newer car as my car for business so they kind of offset each other as it costs a lot more for being used for business. Insuring an almost 11 years old car definitely costs a lot more than insuring a 2 years old one, most of the time.

My mom lives 22 KM from us so calling a cab is out of the question. I did think about Autoshare, but after browsing their website I realized that the closest location to our place is about 11KM on Danforth Avenue close to Woodbine. I really do not think it will work for us. Therefore, the car payments we have to keep any way, and at most we can save $1,000 to $1,500 in car insurance premium.

No, I do not write off anything at home as home office expanses, because I have a physical office I go to daily. I cannot work at home any way since I see clients at the office on a regular basis.

RRSP's, RESP do take a chunk off our income, because before deuction they represent about 20% of our gross income, not to mention that I have to pay 10% for CPP on my first $40,000 of income since I am self employed. My wife pays 5% CPP plus another 2.5% for EI. Marginal income tax rate is about 25% for my wife and 35% for me. Seriously, I understand the importance of "pay yourself first", and I do endeavour to put it into practice, but we really do not have extra 10% to put away monthly. We are trying 7% after tax right now, and it is already an extremely difficult task---we have not gone to a movie in years, except for the ones that were free. :o

[airodus]

The idea behind pay yourself first is to treat it like a bill. You cannot choose not to do it, you just do it. If you run out of money at the end of the month, you have to find some other way to cope with it (you will find a way). It's simple logic. If people can live on less income than you do, then you can as well.

Frankly it sounds like you are a very conscientious spender and are actually saving a good deal of money through RRSP and RESP. You should be proud of this and even prouder that you are searching for a way to do more. I would really just give the Pay Yourself First a shot. Don't think about how it can be done, just do it. Once you commit to it, you will start to see where you can afford to tighten things up or what to give up.

Back to the car, I really think more can be done there. Judging on your $500/month payment, I am guesstimating it is a roughly $40,000 MSRP car (please correct me if this is wrong). I know it's not easy to break a lease, but it can be done (leasebusters.com comes to mind). Now a $40,000 new car is never a necessity. You can always choose either a cheaper model or a used car (or both!). Also, the used/old car stigma is usually irrational. Yes, used/old cars may cost more to maintain, but consider that you will usually save a whackload on the initial purchase price and suffer less depreciation (or interest payments). This is balanced against the possibility of higher maintenance costs. Really the new car vs used car maintenance argument is really no different than buying extended warranty (spend money now instead of maybe spending money later).

Generally speaking, cars are pretty much the worst big purchase (or lease) you can make. You should really strive to minimize your transportation costs. If that means you have to pack things a little tighter, or have a little less power for passing, you just make it work. At the end of the day, you just need to get from point A to B.

Also, you should not dismiss having your wife learn to drive standard. It really only takes a couple hours to learn, a few days to perfect and then that opens you up to many $$$ saving possibilities (1-2k on the auto tranny for every car you will ever buy, better gas consumption, she can drive your old car).

But yah, really do the pay yourself first thing and commit to it. Your lifestyle may or may not change. However, you will definitely be saving.

I started to pay myself first when I was making average money (40k). I actually went hardcore and put away 25% of my income pre tax (~1/3 after tax)!!! I ran out of money in my first month. So I cut some expenses and worked a second job. Life changing? Yes. Life stopping? Nope.

And don't think that your savings have to be tucked away compounding at 4% a year or something silly. You can be very active with it and get some enjoyment and experience out of growing it. In Alberta, we recently had a real estate boom. Those that had saved and invested made out like bandits (you could buy a place with as little as 7k down 2.5 years ago and have it appreciate 100k by the time it was ready to close, and this is conservative). Those that did not actually saw housing prices skyrocket outside of their reach (meaning the boom actually hurt them).

Now housing has dropped 10% in Alberta the last year, so I've been applying the same principle to Saskatchewan and it is looking just as lucrative as Alberta did. Even in a poor economy like we have today, there are always opportunities to make money.

The point of this tangent is to excite you as to the possibilities of what paying yourself first can do for you. You can consider every sacrifice you make as paying yourself. Saving money on a 2nd car is like paying yourself to take the bus. Saving money on condo fees is like paying yourself to move. Using one-ply over 2-ply is like paying yourself to scratch your ass. Don't know where that came from, I think I've been typing too long.

[airodus]

No, I do not write off anything at home as home office expanses, because I have a physical office I go to daily. I cannot work at home any way since I see clients at the office on a regular basis.


Talk to your accountant. If you do ANY business from home, whether it be writing emails or talking on the phone, you are eligible to write off home office expenses. There is obviously a huge grey area here that can be abused, but that is for you to decide. However, get some professional advice here before dismissing it out of hand because you might be surprised at what your accountant says.

If you don't have an accountant, get one. Paying for good advice is always a wise investment.

[koft]

Hmm, I think you should switch the ownership of your wife's car to you and the older car to your wife, it might change the premium a bit. As well, you should look at the minor details in life. For example, grocery shopping habits, coffee drinking, dining out habit? Sometimes these minor changes can make a big differences in your bottom line.

[deeplove]

to live in toronto and be single, i'll say you need to net around 3.5-4k a month atleast.

car/insurance/gas/maintaince is 800 a month easy

roof over your head is around 1100 (rent a condo with utilities included)
Phone/Internet/Gym/misc 100
Food 800
Entertainment/clothes 400
others/emergency/etc 200

that adds up to 3400 already and that is just to really "exist"

$800 food per month..that is way way way inflated

[knapper]

Well, my wife and I both work and our combined income is around $150,000, but after tax we still find our cash flow a bit wanting for a family of three living in Toronto. We contribute max to our RRSP's and to our son's RESP each year, and our son's pre-school tuition fee is about $11,000 a year. We have two cars and one is paid off. Mortgage is not hugh but it is there. Condo fee is outrageous going up every year and is now at $610 a month. Property tax seems to go up every year too. Our auto insurance premium is super crazy at around $6,000 a year, not because we are bad drivers with terrible driving records, but due to the fact that my wife did not get her driver's license until a few years ago with no previous insurance experience. We live very modestly, but we can hardly set aside a fixed portion of our take home income on a steady basis. I really do not know how people can afford leasing those expansive cars for over a thousand dollars a month, because my car payment is about $500 a month for 6 years, and I already feel it is quite a bit. Current gasoline cost does not help either when we still have to spend over $300 a month after cutting all weekend day trips we used to do almost every weekend when weather permitted. I really do not know where else to cut for saving that extra % of our take home income monthly. By the way, I am self-employed and my wife's emploer has not got her any group benefits yet so we are paying for privately owned health and dental plan through Manulife and it costs about $350 a month for three of us. We also pay for privately owned life and disability insurance too. They all add up and before we know, after our fixed expanses, our disposable income is quite minute when compared to our gross.>:(

You are maxing out RRSP/RESP, you mortgage is almost paid, insurance will decrease with time, and the daycare expenses will be gone in a little while (unless you choose to go with private school). Things may seem tight, but I'd say you are doing fine.

[lasallejai]

You are maxing out RRSP/RESP, you mortgage is almost paid, insurance will decrease with time, and the daycare expenses will be gone in a little while (unless you choose to go with private school). Things may seem tight, but I'd say you are doing fine.

Yeah, we are hoping that the government can provide full day kindergarten soon so that our son can attend next year when he turns 4. Otherwise, we would have to keep him at pre-school until grade 1 and spend that $900 a month. We have no intention to send him to private grade school.

[lasallejai]

Hmm, I think you should switch the ownership of your wife's car to you and the older car to your wife, it might change the premium a bit. As well, you should look at the minor details in life. For example, grocery shopping habits, coffee drinking, dining out habit? Sometimes these minor changes can make a big differences in your bottom line.

I am the owner of both cars, except my wife is the primary driver of the newer car for insurance purposes. We spend prudently for groceries; we do not drink coffee, and when we go out we bring our onw water or drinks in bottles; we only dine out twice a week: every saturday night with my mom so that she can get to see her grandchild, and every sunday after church service since it is a bit late for us to go home to cook.:o

[TnT_Tyler]

I don't post too often but one job I think people overlook especially in today's market is the Railroad. I hired on with CP Rail last fall and completed my training this past April. You've probably heard the hours are rough, and yes I won't deny that they are pretty rotten sometimes HOWEVER they do pay you quite well. Unlike the oil rigs where you can make 100K a year as I constantly hear, the RR consists of very little manual labor at all.

The give you paid training (which works out to 38K a year although training is only 5 months) and once your qualified you start @ 85% of the top wage, now the the pay scales on the RR are straight forward, how they pay you is complicated and I won't take the time to explain it, however the Bare minimum you would make a year as a Conductor starting out at 85% is 46k once at 100% its around 53K, once again this is the least amount possible (which you would never make, it would always be more)

If your interested in working in the yard which = 40 hour work week 2 days off, a "normal" schedule then you take a bit of a hit in pay but not that much, it works out to being about $26/H, so almost 50K a year for a job which consists of walking around (very easy)

Factor in a very strong pension program, share purchase program where the company give you 33 cents on your dollar and its very easy to make a GOOD living at the slight expense of messed up hours (something i'm willing to deal with)

So while i'm super biased becasue I do love my job, it is one of the easier and better paying jobs out there, I won't even get into the engineers (guys who drive the trains) who make over 80K a year easy.

[Acuratl]

Alot of people get mediocre jobs get settled and don't look elsewhere primarily because they need the money to support their families etc.. I think 30k is pretty pitiful, me as a student i make 36,000 / year IF i worked FT but i work PT so its much less, but it was not hard to get this job mind you i'm in Alberta.

[arias86]

Seems pretty easy to fix, it's whether you're willing to or not. Judging by the nature of your post, and the information you divulged, I think that deep down you will agree with the following points. I hope that you are just looking for some positive reinforcement, so I'll be pretty frank.

- get rid of the 2nd car (saves payments, maintenance, gas and parking)
- wife should carpool or take public transit, and get insurance as a secondary driver on your other car (this will cheaply build her insurance history so that she can be primary in a few years without a huge premium, and she can still drive)
- think about moving condos because your condo fees are very high. this may or may not be realistic depending on your situation
- $11,000 is too much for pre-school. that is equivalent to university tuition if not more. pre-school is not a necessity nor is private school when he gets to that age (tho there is an argument for private school, public school in Canada is actually very good)

The crux of the matter is that because you can afford to, you are making some economically unsound decisions. If you could not afford to, you would not be doing these. Just because you can afford to, doesn't mean you should.

The only way to save up is to live below your means (LBYM). Once you do that, your means will start to grow and you can do more and more while still LBYM (a multi-millionaire can live quite extravagantly below his means).

It's possible too, once you set your priorities. I make an enormous amount of money, but live middle class (lifestyle requires an average salary to sustain). I save and invest 90% of what I make and it grows very quickly (the more money you have, the more lucrative your opportunities will be). I am happy with my car and house and buy whatever I need. But I am careful to separate wants from needs (I might want a Ferrari, but don't need one. I might want a mansion, but don't need one. I might want designer clothes, but don't need them). And once I accepted that, I have been quite happy living an average life, not ever worrying about money, security or employment, and actually take great pride and pleasure watching my money grow. I grew up lower-middle class, and grew up quite happy. So I know that throwing away money is not gonna make me any happier and also that sacrifice makes you stronger.

I'm 27 and can retire wealthy on passive income right now. That feeling is worth more to me than any amount of conspicuous consumption ever would.

Great advice, thanks.

[projectmoonlightcafe]

Not sure if anyone posted this in the pages prior, but as per StatsCan the median income in Canada is about $52000 and I believe in Toronto it's about $54000. Don't remember the exact numbers, but this should be correct.

[DeimosBeros]

Not sure if anyone posted this in the pages prior, but as per StatsCan the median income in Canada is about $52000 and I believe in Toronto it's about $54000. Don't remember the exact numbers, but this should be correct.

Smells like BS to me.

[MichaelKnight]

Using one-ply over 2-ply is like paying yourself to scratch your ass.

Lol. I usually lurk, but I had to log on just to thank you for the laugh. Absolute classic.

[jaysellman]

[QUOTE=airodus;7110360] I make an enormous amount of money, QUOTE]

If I can ask. How much would that be? In my book thats anything over 20k :cheesygri

[BlueHurley]

i have to agree, the average salary on rdf is 100k.

[jaysellman]

i have to agree, the average salary on rdf is 100k.

I'm not sure, what is your source ?

[sammamouth]

The average income in Canada is approximately $38 000. I read this in the National Post a few months back....

[rocketdan9]

Imo there is two type of average income classes.

1. (simple) is in the range of 18-24k after taxes. I calculated that if you don't have high standards of living, don't drive, buy groceries usually, pay rent (about 600-900 a month) while still able to down some bruskies in the weekends this figure is possible for a single person. (paycheque to paycheque living and hoping after so many years of service canadas pension will help with your retirement)

2. (extra) is in the range of 25-32 after taxes. You could live the way i mentioned above and buy yourself a car(like a civic) or instead eat out more, get a slightly better place to rent etc.

Most people if they had to choose of course would want #2, but how about if you work say at walmart or starbucks and love your job for whatever reason then maybe a little bit better pay really inst a factor for you if you can handle living a simple life.

The good part though is that there is something called marriage or living together with someone that can make living a heck lot easier in terms utlizing your income. You can have a #1 and #2 combine income and rent out a real decent 1br for 1200 a month or possibly save up for a bit and manage to get decently priced condo.

I aint no expert or work for stats can but i think class 1 and 2 make up at least 65 percent of the population with 25 percent making 35 + after taxes(gross like 42 a year?)

[Zug_Zwang]

The good part though is that there is something called marriage or living together with someone that can make living a heck lot easier in terms utlizing your income.

Wishful thinking, though I take it you've never met my wife:lol:

[Happy13178]

I am the owner of both cars, except my wife is the primary driver of the newer car for insurance purposes. We spend prudently for groceries; we do not drink coffee, and when we go out we bring our onw water or drinks in bottles; we only dine out twice a week: every saturday night with my mom so that she can get to see her grandchild, and every sunday after church service since it is a bit late for us to go home to cook.:o

Do you call dining out going to a friends place for dinner, or going to a restaurant? Maybe its just me, but twice a week seems like a lot for ppl on a budget.

[adamtheman]

Working smarter not harder is the key. Anyone can get a job at $25 an hour if they work 50 hours a week, but finding a job at $35 an hour working 35 hours a week is not as easy......


$70,000 a year working 50 hours a week, I'd rather make $70,000 working 35 hours a week

[Justine]

Nah, it's about 20-25k before taxes. For instance, if you work at walmart full time, 40 hours a week at $9/hr, that's only $18,000 and with profit sharing and vacation pay it becomes around $20,000. If you make $10/hr or work overtime it will go up to the $25k area.

That's comfortable living, not amazing, but decent. Bills will be roughly 10-12k for a decent sized apartment. If you have a roommate, the total income doubles. Which is why any college job is totally worth pursuing. Working in a factory you can easily make 50-60k a year but you have to work in a factory! eww. Any full time job other then walmart can make 30-35k. A decent college career can make 45k average starting with benefits and up to 90k if you're good. Plus you get to do what you want.

Depends on what kind of factory, rim in waterloo pays assembly line workers 10.5.hr.

[tommy123]

You're assuming this imaginary person has nothing, though, and never has. True for people just starting out, but not for the majority of families. If a couple in Toronto bought 5-6 years ago, they might have a mortgage of only $1,000/month. In the city, they might not even need a car, or certainly not need one that will cost them $800/month to keep. A $10k used Civic just for occasional trips won't cost much in gas or insurance. Internet and gym are luxuries, a basic phone costs $20/month.

Finally, your food number is insane. My food cost for a family of four per month is about $600, and we eat very well.

Are we talking about 1999 or 2009? Last time I checked, the internet is not a luxury.

[coolspot]

Are we talking about 1999 or 2009? Last time I checked, the internet is not a luxury.

Internet IS a luxury... you can survive quite well without a computer, and there's free access at the public library.

[cheeseshredder]

Internet IS a luxury... you can survive quite well without a computer, and there's free access at the public library.

A few years ago yeah, not now though. If you're in school, particularly University without a computer, you're at a severe disadvantage.

[coolspot]

A few years ago yeah, not now though. If you're in school, particularly University without a computer, you're at a severe disadvantage.

Being at a disadvantage doesn't make it a necessity... there are few necessities in life, those would be food, clothing, and shelter. The Internet is compromisable... you can always get access at the library, school, work... etc.

And what if you did not have a computer or internet? What would happen to your life? I suspect not much - people still have other ways of reaching you :)

[smolek]

A few years ago yeah, not now though. If you're in school, particularly University without a computer, you're at a severe disadvantage.Not really, university libraries have 100's of computers with internet access one can use, so its not 100% necessary to have it at home (I survived quite fine for a few months without it).

[zyphere]

The internet is a necessity because without regular access at home we can't access RFD regularly enough to jump on deals the second they're known, in order to save hundreds of dollars. :twisted:

[rocketdan9]

The internet imo is borderline luxury/necessity. You won't die without it(maybe i would) like food , but in this technological age everything is done through it(banking, map travel, applying for jobs etc) that it would tough living without it.

But remember also there still some folks that even have money living in rural areas that can't even get internet access and survive with their day to day lives. (though i'm hearing access is reaching to these places more and more)

[drey2k]

I highly doubt the average salary is that low.. 25k/yr is ridiculously low.

I'm a new grad and I made way more than that.

I think it's somewhere around maybe 40k in Canada. Here in Vancouver I think it's like 50k.

[rocketdan9]

I highly doubt the average salary is that low.. 25k/yr is ridiculously low.

I'm a new grad and I made way more than that.

I think it's somewhere around maybe 40k in Canada. Here in Vancouver I think it's like 50k.

but do you mean 25k/yr after taxes or before??

Before is kind of low but like i stated if one works at like walmart, doesn't mind living a simple life, than they can live on 18 k/yr after taxes until they retire even

As for the avg income being 50k yr (before or after) in vancouver, thats really hard to believe. Toronto and gta in theory should then have a higher avg income and it doesnt.

[drey2k]

Well I was talking about before taxes. But even after taxes it seems low.

[rocketdan9]

25 k before taxes is approx 14 dollars an hour full time. After taxes approx 18-20k. A huge chunk of people working at walmart, restaurants, retail, custodian jobs, construction, factory don't even make 14 an hour i don't think

honestly i couldn't live on 14 per hour all my life but some single people can. Hopefully happily if they have no other choice

[coolspot]

I highly doubt the average salary is that low.. 25k/yr is ridiculously low.

I'm a new grad and I made way more than that.

I think it's somewhere around maybe 40k in Canada. Here in Vancouver I think it's like 50k.

Average income can be quite low, if the numbers were averaged across Male/Female. But the fact you're a new grad (university?) already places you into an "elite" category...

http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/labor01a-eng.htm

I would say 35 - 38K is a realistic average income figure for Canada...

Family Income: http://www40.statcan.gc.ca/l01/cst01/famil21a-eng.htm

[drey2k]

Well I'm a grad from UBC.

I make 43k/yr, but I by no means feel "elite" or "rich".

If those figures are actually true I feel really sorry for those people then.. 25k/yr or even 30k/yr is such low income to live on. Maybe they live in areas where life costs are very low, because it is unimaginable to live here in Vancouver on that kind of salary.

[rocketdan9]

nice links coolspot. I spoke with a buddy today who majored in stats/sociology and he stated earning classes fall into these catergories for canada in his opinion if its any of interest to you

1500-2000 a month and up to 2600 (which is 18-24k) after taxes is the bare min one prob need to be able to live alone in canada. (40 percent of pop)

3000 a month range(which is 36k) after taxes is where alot of the service government workers, ttc, people that have jobs thanks for their post secondary education/specialized skills. One can afford after saving up a few years a condo, new car(corolla) etc (25 percent)

4000 a month range(which is 48k) after taxes is considered above average income and usually people that have risky public jobs (police), junior accountants/analysts, executive assistants, managers at small companies make this amount. One could be the sole money maker with such amount and their spouse doesn't have to work. (15 percent)

5000 a month range (which is 60k) after taxes is considered elite income and usually are made by people with senior titles, jr executives, 1st jobs after your mba or masters grad. One can raise a family having 1-2 children on their own without struggling. (10 percent)

6000 a month range + (which is 72k) after taxes is considered wealthy income and usually made by executives(vice presidents), contruction managers, professional athletes, pilots, doctors, politicians, lawyers, people who have phd's and are professors for example etc. Usually own penthouses on condos, live in nice neighbourhoods, country club membership etc (1-2 percent)

with approx 5-10 percent of the population in canada making less than 1500 a month. (not factoring in student jobs)

[Faeton]

Nice breakdown rocketdan9.

I would argue that even at 6k a month, is not really "wealthy". It's definitely comfortable and upper-middle class, but by no means would I consider that to be "rich". To me, rich would be about $15k a month, in which you could buy anything under $1k and not have to worry about it (my strange-way of seeing how rich someone is).

For a family making 6k a month, it can be broken down this way:
3k for mortgage/property tax/utilities/house insurance
1k for retirement/savings
800 for cars/insurance/gas/maintenance (assuming 2 average cars)
500 for vacation savings (2x a year)
500 for groceries, eating out
200 for misc.

It's very rough estimate, but I wouldn't consider that a rich nor wealthy lifestyle at all.

Either way, this is a pretty interesting thread. I think the moral that can be taken out of it is this: Don't spend more than you make!

[rocketdan9]

Nice breakdown rocketdan9.

I would argue that even at 6k a month, is not really "wealthy". It's definitely comfortable and upper-middle class, but by no means would I consider that to be "rich". To me, rich would be about $15k a month, in which you could buy anything under $1k and not have to worry about it (my strange-way of seeing how rich someone is).

For a family making 6k a month, it can be broken down this way:
3k for mortgage/property tax/utilities/house insurance
1k for retirement/savings
800 for cars/insurance/gas/maintenance (assuming 2 average cars)
500 for vacation savings (2x a year)
500 for groceries, eating out
200 for misc.

It's very rough estimate, but I wouldn't consider that a rich nor wealthy lifestyle at all.

Either way, this is a pretty interesting thread. I think the moral that can be taken out of it is this: Don't spend more than you make!

15k a month after taxes would be in another category called filthy rich.

I agree with the way a 6000 income could be spent monthly, its not super rich(like 500 k a year salary) but its close to 3 figures a year gross. Its a good, comfortable life for most people who can make near that

Also in this modern era both spouses usually work. Even if your spouse has a 2000 a month after tax job, that is a whopping 8 thousand dollars a month spending power.

[rborek]

In this modern era both spouses usually work. Even if your spouse has a 2000 a month after tax job, that is a whopping 8 thousand dollars a month spending power.

I agree with the way a 6000 income could be spent monthly, its not super rich(like 500 k a year salary) but its close to 3 figures a year gross. Its a good, comfortable life for most people who can make near that

6000 a month after tax is well into the six figure salary range (gross). 100k a year is around 5100-5200 a month net.

[drey2k]

I think what sucks about a 6 figure salary is that most people who make it need to work at least 50 hours per week.

Suddenly life ain't that great.

[rocketdan9]

I think what sucks about a 6 figure salary is that most people who make it need to work at least 50 hours per week.

Suddenly life ain't that great.

imo it sort of is great. you can work 40 hours make lower pay than 6 figures, have a boss who has a boss etc and can't really act indepently, have to work 5 to 10 more years in comparison

So to me working 10 more hours a week instead , getting paid more, retiring earlier, doesn't sound too shabby

[Justine]

When I was working, I've been unemployed for a few weeks, half of my income went to rent. That's too much, and not a good way to live.

[drey2k]

Salaries here in Vancouver are too low for the cost of living. The rent is absolutely insane...

[Faeton]

Salaries here in Vancouver are too low for the cost of living. The rent is absolutely insane...

The rent isn't really that bad compared to the (overinflated) real estate prices. $2k/month for a 2-bedroom condo looks to be expensive until you realize that it would "cost" $750k+ to buy the condo. Then you realize you're getting a pretty good "deal" =p

[alanbrenton]

For Oriental children even in their late 20's, parents usually don't ask them to leave the household and find a place of their own. I know that I won't be asking my daughter to leave when she reaches the age of majority; I will leave it up to her whether she wants to stay or not. There's no point wasting money on rent when a house may be big enough to accommodate the children and when family members live amicably. I know I nag right now but it's about discipline in completing homeworks and studying.

I read on the National Post year or two ago that a lot of Canadians have gone back to live with their parents. I think it's the smart thing to do especially when parents give a lot of leeway anyway.

[airodus]

For Oriental children even in their late 20's, parents usually don't ask them to leave the household and find a place of their own. I know that I won't be asking my daughter to leave when she reaches the age of majority; I will leave it up to her whether she wants to stay or not. There's no point wasting money on rent when a house may be big enough to accommodate the children and when family members live amicably. I know I nag right now but it's about discipline in completing homeworks and studying.

I read on the National Post year or two ago that a lot of Canadians have gone back to live with their parents. I think it's the smart thing to do especially when parents give a lot of leeway anyway.

Well it makes sense financially and from a cultural perspective. However, it will also stunt the growth and independence of your daughter and may expose her to ridicule. I too know many asian people in their late 20's living at home. The general consensus among peers is that they are still too immature and dependent to live on their own (definitely a catch 22). They also do not do well at work or socially.

So although you have the best of intentions, you might want to rethink that idea. If I were to raise a child, I would not give them the choice to stay at home after they are able to be self sufficient (unless under extenuating circumstances).

[Bazooka Joe]

I don't know if anyone has posted this yet (too lazy to look), but the median salary in Canada in 2006 was $26,300

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/my_money/planning/article.jsp?content=20071127_094158_5856

[shop_girl]

6000 a month range + (which is 72k) after taxes is considered wealthy income and usually made by executives(vice presidents), contruction managers, professional athletes, pilots, doctors, politicians, lawyers, people who have phd's and are professors for example etc. Usually own penthouses on condos, live in nice neighbourhoods, country club membership etc (1-2 percent)


My husband and I bring home over $6000/month and we're not living a "country club" lifestyle. Not even close.

[ullyeus]

Being at a disadvantage doesn't make it a necessity... there are few necessities in life, those would be food, clothing, and shelter. The Internet is compromisable... you can always get access at the library, school, work... etc.

And what if you did not have a computer or internet? What would happen to your life? I suspect not much - people still have other ways of reaching you :)

would you consider a phone a luxury?

[ullyeus]

My husband and I bring home over $6000/month and we're not living a "country club" lifestyle. Not even close.

It's all relative but at the end of the day you are doing quite well.

[rainmaker]

My husband and I bring home over $6000/month and we're not living a "country club" lifestyle. Not even close.

Do you each bring home over $6 000 per month? If so, that's more than (6 000 x 12 x 2) = 144 000, which is pretty high up there in the income stratosphere.

[ullyeus]

I think what sucks about a 6 figure salary is that most people who make it need to work at least 50 hours per week.

Suddenly life ain't that great.

I wonder if this is true...I know way more minimum wage type people that are desperate and work significant overtime compared to the people I know who make 75k+.....

[nalababe]

I wonder if this is true...I know way more minimum wage type people that are desperate and work significant overtime compared to the people I know who make 75k+.....

Very true. I could care less about working crazy hours. I try and stay around 40 hours. And when I do go above (like tonight), it is mainly at home doing a few spreadsheets or email while watching TV....

Could I get more money working longer....probably. But the effort to get from 105% to 110% of budget is far far far greater than getting from 100 to 105% of budget.

[rupert]

Nice breakdown rocketdan9.

I would argue that even at 6k a month, is not really "wealthy". It's definitely comfortable and upper-middle class, but by no means would I consider that to be "rich". To me, rich would be about $15k a month, in which you could buy anything under $1k and not have to worry about it (my strange-way of seeing how rich someone is).



I agree with this totally. At $6k a month one cannot even really afford a nice car (which easily goes for 100k). And when you are making $6k a month everyone around you will also be making similar incomes. If all your friends/coworkers go out for lunch+dinner everyday (easy 40$ a day) it adds up very quickly. Unless you totally become antisocial I don't know how to avoid this.

[airodus]

I agree with this totally. At $6k a month one cannot even really afford a nice car (which easily goes for 100k). And when you are making $6k a month everyone around you will also be making similar incomes. If all your friends/coworkers go out for lunch+dinner everyday (easy 40$ a day) it adds up very quickly. Unless you totally become antisocial I don't know how to avoid this.

Got some high standards there.

[rupert]

Got some high standards there.

If you walk into any Mercedes or BMW dealership suddently 100K doesn't buy you much of anything.

[airodus]

If you walk into any Mercedes or BMW dealership suddently 100K doesn't buy you much of anything.

Huh? Have you ever walked into a BMW or Mercedes dealership? They start at 40k and only the very top models are over 100k. Look it up.

[rupert]

Huh? Have you ever walked into a BMW or Mercedes dealership? They start at 40k and only the very top models are over 100k. Look it up.

Yes 40K is the price of a barebone no-options lowest class/series model, which I don't even think is available on the lot for purchase.

Start going through the options and you will feel the 40K price tag was missleading and ends up to just under 60K after options/taxes/fees. This is for a C class or 3 series. And bare in mind this is only after a recent aggressive price slashing. Owning one of these is by no means 'rich' by any standards. Thats my point.

Once you hit their mid-range models they easily get to 100k when it's all said and done.

[Justine]

K, we are talking about average incomes here, I don't think the average person drives a mercedes or bmw. More like a hyundai.
$100,000 for a car is not something I see myself ever spending, nevermind making that in a year.

[B0000rt]

If you walk into any Mercedes or BMW dealership suddently 100K doesn't buy you much of anything.
What smart fairly wealthy person ever outright buys a vehicle with cash?

Hello leasing.

[rupert]

K, we are talking about average incomes here, I don't think the average person drives a mercedes or bmw. More like a hyundai.
$100,000 for a car is not something I see myself ever spending, nevermind making that in a year.

No, I am not saying an average person is spending 100k on a car. I was just making a point that even making $6k a month isn't considered very wealthy or rich. My example is that even at $6k a month, one cannot even truly afford a midrange luxury car.

What smart fairly wealthy person ever outright buys a vehicle with cash?

Hello leasing.

Never have I said you buy the car with cash, being able to lease it doesn't make it suddently 'affordable' by any means. Anyway a lease on a 100k car will tie up half of a $6k/mth income.

[ullyeus]

Yes 40K is the price of a barebone no-options lowest class/series model, which I don't even think is available on the lot for purchase.

Start going through the options and you will feel the 40K price tag was missleading and ends up to just under 60K after options/taxes/fees. This is for a C class or 3 series. And bare in mind this is only after a recent aggressive price slashing. Owning one of these is by no means 'rich' by any standards. Thats my point.

Once you hit their mid-range models they easily get to 100k when it's all said and done.

so you agree you have high standards then...


Why don't people seem to realize that they have high standards and instead seem to be defensive that making 2-3 times the stanard "isn't actually high"...this isn't an opinion we are debating here...it's a FACT. I you clear 6000 a month you are doing very well for yourself.


I make considerably more than 6k a month and still scrape by paycheque to paycheque and would love to make more...but I am not going to start bitching about how I don't make enough and how 10k a month isn't really a lot of money.

[xcentric]

many of those cars can be written off as a business expense....
6k a month, if you want a nice home, easily takes half, and then some....

btw, how much do you think one needs to make, in order to fully purchase cars like an R8, Aston Martin, Bentley etc =)

[xcentric]

No, I am not saying an average person is spending 100k on a car. I was just making a point that even making $6k a month isn't considered very wealthy or rich. My example is that even at $6k a month, one cannot even truly afford a midrange luxury car.

Never have I said you buy the car with cash, being able to lease it doesn't make it suddently 'affordable' by any means. Anyway a lease on a 100k car will tie up half of a $6k/mth income.

i would say 2600-3200/net a month is average for one income. so 40-50k gross give or take
if u can clear more than a grand a week, or 4k a month, youre better off than the majority. 4k/net/mthly = around 65-70000 gross yrly.

however, the point of this thread is, even at 5k-6k/mth, 80-100grand a yr gross, at the end of the day, its still middle upper class... dependin on your house as well. usually its combined...
but if one can make say 85k and wife doesnt need to stay home for kids, and makes another 55k, thats decent living.

to really see the contrast and live much more comfortably, 5figures a month would be ideal. 10k + net

[B0000rt]

Never have I said you buy the car with cash, being able to lease it doesn't make it suddently 'affordable' by any means. Anyway a lease on a 100k car will tie up half of a $6k/mth income.

Says who?

I just did a quick configuration on mb.ca:
SL550
Total Cost $125,000.00
Downpayment/Trade-In Amount $10,000.00
Length of Contract 48 Months
Annual Kilometres 24,000 km/year
Monthly Payment* $1,846.83

A modest $200 in gas, and $300 in insurance ;)

< $2500! :D

Not only that, those are are in the business are generally ones who can write this expense off, so $2500 - 30% average tax rate = 1750

[TakumiDC5]

Never have I said you buy the car with cash, being able to lease it doesn't make it suddently 'affordable' by any means. Anyway a lease on a 100k car will tie up half of a $6k/mth income.

Incorrect. A friend of mine leased a Mercedes CLS550, $0 down, $1100-ish a month. That was about 6 months ago, when dealers here were giving crazy incentives. I think the retail on that car is well over $100k.

[Si98]

Incorrect. A friend of mine leased a Mercedes CLS550, $0 down, $1100-ish a month. That was about 6 months ago, when dealers here were giving crazy incentives. I think the retail on that car is well over $100k.


$1100????? That's like someones mortgage payment. :confused:

[rupert]

Says who?

I just did a quick configuration on mb.ca:
SL550
Total Cost $125,000.00
Downpayment/Trade-In Amount $10,000.00
Length of Contract 48 Months
Annual Kilometres 24,000 km/year
Monthly Payment* $1,846.83

A modest $200 in gas, and $300 in insurance ;)

< $2500! :D

Not only that, those are are in the business are generally ones who can write this expense off, so $2500 - 30% average tax rate = 1750

That is because you put $10K down. Try 0$ down. The payment would be zero if I put 130K down, thats not the point. Read the fine print, that figure also does not include applicable taxes and freight/pdi.

[rupert]

Incorrect. A friend of mine leased a Mercedes CLS550, $0 down, $1100-ish a month. That was about 6 months ago, when dealers here were giving crazy incentives. I think the retail on that car is well over $100k.

Key in point. I could be going strapped for cash and need to sell my SL for 20k tomorrow, what all of a sudden this means everybody can get one for 20k?

[TakumiDC5]

Key in point. I could be going strapped for cash and need to sell my SL for 20k tomorrow, what all of a sudden this means everybody can get one for 20k?

Yeah that's a real good comparison... :rolleyes:

All dealers were offering great incentives at that time (and many still are), so yes everyone could have gotten that deal

I'm just pointing out that the lease alone will not 'eat up half of your 6k income' as you would presume, unless you sign a really bad deal...

[superping]

I read this so long ago that I can't remember if they actually stated an average - but it looks like the middle 20% of individual Canadians make 20K - 33K.

The article below is a good read. I in their top 20% in terms of salary and I feel so damn poor (student debt, mortgage, etc.). It kinda made me feel better. :lol:

http://www.canadianbusiness.com/my_money/investing/article.jsp?content=20071127_094158_5856



The median annual paycheque in Canada is $26,300.
INCOME RANK TOTAL INCOME IN 2006
Lowest paid 20% Less than $9,600
Next 20% $9,600 to $19,100
Middle 20% $19,100 to $33,300
Next 20% $33,300 to $56,500
Best paid 20% More than $56,500



Interesting... always thought I'm underpaid, got to change my way of thinking. Doing much better than the 'average' people.

[SizzleChest]

Interesting... always thought I'm underpaid, got to change my way of thinking. Doing much better than the 'average' people.
i have a very hard time believing that 20% of canada's population makes less than $9,600 annually. $26,300 is the average individual income??? that's like 12 bucks an hour at 40 hours a week.

[zyphere]

i have a very hard time believing that 20% of canada's population makes less than $9,600 annually. $26,300 is the average individual income??? that's like 12 bucks an hour at 40 hours a week.

Not sure the sample that the article used. Could have included students (most high school and post-sec students make less than $10K, because they only have jobs during the summer.. some have PT jobs too but who knows). Could also include some people that only do part-time work (and spend the rest of the time taking care of kids or the home).

Yeah, $12/hour does seem pretty little. $26K does seem really low too. I was expecting it to be in the mid-30's at least. $12/hour is what the average factory worker/general labour kinda person makes. I don't think there are so many of them though that they pretty much constitute the average...

[Muncher]

There seems to be lots of jobs paying $10-12/hr (maybe it's only for people just starting off). I was scanning thru this website and was wondering how workers stay alive ...

http://www.jobfutures.ca/noc/browse-occupations-alphabet.shtml

[neltron3030]

...here are my points that not a lot of people seem to understand....

1) Not everyone lives in Toronto or Vancouver. Someone making $12/hour here is struggling, but that same $12 in Quispamsis, NB probably isn't that bad. Hell, I grew up in Barrie (top 20 in population in Canada) and there are a tonne of people who work lower paying jobs.

2) If you are educated (college or university), are automatically considered elite compared with the rest of the population so you can't say that you only make $43K out of school so everyone must be making more than me. You can't compare what you and your college buddies make with the rest of the regular population.

3) It is expensive as **** to live comfortably in the city. I take home about $3,200-$3,400 a month and find it difficult to carry a small mortgage, drive a used car, pay for parking, entertain, etc. Granted I don't live on the cheap (I like eating out, play sports, etc.) -- but those are necessities IMO to keep sanity.

Neil

[icedtee]

I'm not entirely sure who they count in to take the average but there are a lot of stay at home moms and unemployed people that would effectively weigh the average down....unless the average was of employed people...

[ghostryder]

Says who?

I just did a quick configuration on mb.ca:
SL550
Total Cost $125,000.00
Downpayment/Trade-In Amount $10,000.00
Length of Contract 48 Months
Annual Kilometres 24,000 km/year
Monthly Payment* $1,846.83

A modest $200 in gas, and $300 in insurance ;)

< $2500! :D

Not only that, those are are in the business are generally ones who can write this expense off, so $2500 - 30% average tax rate = 1750


Except that there are limits as to how much you can deduct as an expense, so of that $1846 lease payment less than 600 could be expensed, and then that would then be further pro-rated based on your actual business mileage.

[SpillOnAisle9]

Says who?
Not only that, those are are in the business are generally ones who can write this expense off, so $2500 - 30% average tax rate = 1750

You're not allowed to write the entire $1750 off...there's a maximum that used
to be about $750, but it's nowhere near the $1750.

[SpillOnAisle9]

Key in point. I could be going strapped for cash and need to sell my SL for 20k tomorrow, what all of a sudden this means everybody can get one for 20k?


You're mixing metaphors here. If you lease it you won't be turning around
and selling it if you're cash-strapped because you don't own it. MB
Finance does. Which is partly why I bought mine. Even with the massive
depreciation it's still worth more than the note on it. Because it was bought
I didn't write it off either...saved that for the lease on the winter car