Losing an Edge, Japanese Envy India’s Schools

[alanbrenton]

An interesting read. How does Canada's public system education stack up?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/02/business/worldbusiness/02japan.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5087&em&en=6a24bd9e75389e18&ex=1199422800

[matkun]

North America's education system is crap compared to Europe/Asia and has been for a long time.

I came here from Poland.. I had finished Grade 2 there (equivalent to Grade 3 here in terms of years in school) and pretty much was reviewing everything I had learned in terms of Math/Science for 2 years. Got a nice head start and got put into Gifted classes.

When classes are taught at a level so that the dumbest kids can learn.. Well, you end up with the smart kids at the level of the dumb kids.

[eejikes]

A successful education goes far beyond grade school I'm sure you'll agree, how do other levels of education in poland fare against those in Canada:?:

[mjl_toronto]

A successful education goes far beyond grade school I'm sure you'll agree, how do other levels of education in poland fare against those in Canada:?:

I think it does go far beyond grade school and matkun's experience just shows how early it starts. I was in a gifted math program and had even skipped a grade of highschool math when I was younger. Then a friend of mine came from Korea who was two years younger than me but was already doing university level math. I was blown away. He even tells me that he wasn't very smart in Korea which was why his parents wanted him to come to Canada (slap in face).

Of course, the same can't be said for all foreign education systems or even all students but it's still amazing how far ahead they are. At least I can say I'm more well-rounded :cheesygri

[firetrainer]

I remember when I went to India in grade 7 and brought along my math textbook so I can keep up with the class while I was away. My aunt, who teaches a grade 3 class in India, took a look at my textbook and was shocked. She asked my mom if I was in the "special" class cause she was teaching this stuff already to kids in the third grade. My mom just laughed and told her how far behind the Canadian public education system is when it comes to math and a few other subjects.

[rey1867]

The Canadian school system is heavily flawed. The main problem is that the jumps in difficulty are too much to handle for a lot of students. Grade 8 to 9 is a big jump and so is the jump from grade 12 to uni.

The Indian school system is very demanding. There is a lot of memorization in courses like English which is unfortunate as there really is no creativity. For example, most of the time there is one predefined answer for the meaning of a poem. Students generally memorize the meaning without really understanding it.

However for science/math, Indian students are miles ahead of their Canadian counterparts. That's one of the reasons that international students kill technical courses at university.

Also, Indian families place a heavy emphasis on education. This is not really evident in Canada imo. Lastly, the content is extremely challenging and there's a lot of it. So, you either run with the pace or fall down.

[cheeseshredder]

The Canadian school system is heavily flawed. The main problem is that the jumps in difficulty are too much to handle for a lot of students. Grade 8 to 9 is a big jump and so is the jump from grade 12 to uni.

The Indian school system is very demanding. There is a lot of memorization in courses like English which is unfortunate as there really is no creativity. For example, most of the time there is one predefined answer for the meaning of a poem. Students generally memorize the meaning without really understanding it.

However for science/math, Indian students are miles ahead of their Canadian counterparts. That's one of the reasons that international students kill technical courses at university.

Also, Indian families place a heavy emphasis on education. This is not really evident in Canada imo. Lastly, the content is extremely challenging and there's a lot of it. So, you either run with the pace or fall down.

Grade 12 to Uni... Not so much. Just different style of learning. Material wise, it's not that big a jump.

I think the difference in the Canadian education system is that learning from K-Grade 10 even is very general so you don't feel like you're "learning" exactly. It's only Grade 11/12 that you really learn any precise science/math (if you choose to do those courses that is).

So I guess you could say, we spend a lot of time dicking around, learning more "creatively" and "generally" as opposed to hitting the books early on.

[rey1867]

Grade 12 to Uni... Not so much. Just different style of learning. Material wise, it's not that big a jump.

I think the difference in the Canadian education system is that learning from K-Grade 10 even is very general so you don't feel like you're "learning" exactly. It's only Grade 11/12 that you really learn any precise science/math (if you choose to do those courses that is).

So I guess you could say, we spend a lot of time dicking around, learning more "creatively" and "generally" as opposed to hitting the books early on.

imo grade 12 to uni is a big jump for a lot of people. primarily because you have to learn a lot on your own and the content also dramatically increases in difficulty.

[NorthYorker]

"Inferior Canadian education" is among most favourite topics among immigrants and, as it happens with most stereotypes, it is only partially true. There's very serious emphasize on creativity in Canadian system, as opposed to "German" educational system (imposed on all Eastern Europe, more or less) with it's tradition of memorizing high amount of data. It leads to math and science programs lagging 1-3 years behind overseas counterparts, but Social Studies being infinitely ahead. Canadian programs pick up a lot in high school, so Canadian graduate who took academic math usually is as competent in math as European graduate.

Another facet of the problem usually not taken into account in comparison between "back home" and "Canadian" education is social. People who move here typically drop from middle- to upper half of social ladder to very bottom of it, and let's be blunt about it, school for "low-born" are, ahem, different from schools for "the cream of the crop" in any country. And, if matkun had been average or slightly above in his good school back in Poland, it is only natural he came on top in some Toronto urban ghetto school.

OP article is incredibly lame. Drawing a broad conclusion based on experience of 100 school kids in 100 mln. strong country. That's to "sloppy journalism" what an "ocean" is to "wet and salty". Practically defines the term.

[rey1867]

"Inferior Canadian education" is among most favourite topics among immigrants and, as it happens with most stereotypes, it is only partially true. There's very serious emphasize on creativity in Canadian system, as opposed to "German" educational system (imposed on all Eastern Europe, more or less) with it's tradition of memorizing high amount of data. It leads to math and science programs lagging 1-3 years behind overseas counterparts, but Social Studies being infinitely ahead. Canadian programs pick up a lot in high school, so Canadian graduate who took academic math usually is as competent in math as European graduate.

Another facet of the problem usually not taken into account in comparison between "back home" and "Canadian" education is social. People who move here typically drop from middle- to upper half of social ladder to very bottom of it, and let's be blunt about it, school for "low-born" are, ahem, different from schools for "the cream of the crop" in any country. And, if matkun had been average or slightly above in his good school back in Poland, it is only natural he came on top in some Toronto urban ghetto school.

OP article is incredibly lame. Drawing a broad conclusion based on experience of 100 school kids in 100 mln. strong country. That's to "sloppy journalism" what an "ocean" is to "wet and salty". Practically defines the term.

I wouldn't say that the Canadian education is bad because it does have its positives. As you mentioned, the Canadian school system wants kids to be creative/unique. Both systems have their positives and negatives.

[dekay]

Came over from Hong Kong to Canada at age 6 (grade 1). I was at least 2 years ahead in terms of math skills.

But honestly, did better math or science skills really make a difference in terms of my/your career choice? For me, I doubt it.

[cheeseshredder]

imo grade 12 to uni is a big jump for a lot of people. primarily because you have to learn a lot on your own and the content also dramatically increases in difficulty.

Well I'm in my first year undergrad right now, and it wasn't a big a jump as everybody made it out to me. It's about the same I would say. Perhaps I went to a highschool (public) that prepped me well.

[fenrus]

I think people who say the Canadian system "encourages creativity", "nourishes free thought" is a bunch of crap. Our system just sucks, period. As stated, everything is taught at the lowest common denominator, ie. dumb.

We aren't taught no more creativity than anyone else. We are told how things work. We are told to memorize formulas and apply them. Even with writing essays, we are told how to write them and if we didn't follow their guidelines, we'd get a bad mark. Every teacher has a certain style, and if you don't conform or can't figure it out, you get screwed over.

And you can't keep blaming immigrants for have poorer social skills, you do realize that English isn't their first language right? I mean, these people need to think in their native language, and speak in their 2nd language (English). Same thing with me speaking Chinese, I think in English and translate to my mouth to Chinese (which turns out badly usually). And there are many people who have poor social skills, it hardly is a trait solely belonging to immigrants.

[Rehan]

Aren't there options available within the public education system for parents who want to put their kids in a more rigorous program? At my high school (many moons ago), we had three levels for most subjects -- regular, advanced, and IB. At least that resolves the issue of teaching the "smart" kids at the same pace as the "dumb" kids.

[mjl_toronto]

Aren't there options available within the public education system for parents who want to put their kids in a more rigorous program? At my high school (many moons ago), we had three levels for most subjects -- regular, advanced, and IB. At least that resolves the issue of teaching the "smart" kids at the same pace as the "dumb" kids.

Yeah, but those higher 'options' still fall very short of the level of education in some other countries.

[Rehan]

Yeah, but those higher 'options' still fall very short of the level of education in some other countries. But we also don't have the immense pressure faced by some kids in those countries, thank goodness. I'm sure you're aware of students in Japan committing suicide because of school problems (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ed20070615a2.html). (Stats in South Korea are similar.)

The IB program is about as tough/advanced as any high school program should be, IMO. And even then, it's only suitable for a very small percentage of students.

[bionicbadger]

But we also don't have the immense pressure faced by some kids in those countries, thank goodness. I'm sure you're aware of students in Japan committing suicide because of school problems (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ed20070615a2.html). (Stats in South Korea are similar.)


Thats because in Japan once you make it into a good university you are pretty much set. The entrance exams are far more difficult than anything else. You know that they have entrance exams in Japan for kindergarten? If your kid can get into the right schools they will have a good life because of the social aspect more than the education aspect. Companies in Japan often tend to recruit only from certain schools and you need the alumni status get an in.

[mjl_toronto]

But we also don't have the immense pressure faced by some kids in those countries, thank goodness. I'm sure you're aware of students in Japan committing suicide because of school problems (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/ed20070615a2.html). (Stats in South Korea are similar.)

The IB program is about as tough/advanced as any high school program should be, IMO. And even then, it's only suitable for a very small percentage of students.

I don't disagree.

But we are talking about level of education, which still falls short to some foreign systems.

[NorthYorker]

I think people who say the Canadian system "encourages creativity", "nourishes free thought" is a bunch of crap. Our system just sucks, period... We aren't taught no more creativity than anyone else. From my very own and personal experience overseas and here (latter is through participationin my kids' ed) I'd say that Canadian school encourages creativity better than my overseas school, although it doesn't do a perfect job.

And you can't keep blaming immigrants for have poorer social skills It is not social skills so much we were talking about, it is way of thinking.