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View Full Version : Skytrain(subway/rapid transit) in Vancouver to finally get turnstiles


st7860
Nov 9th, 2007, 09:56 AM
for those of you back east that didn't already know, the subway/rapid transit(skytrain) in Vancouver has no drivers, and stations are NOT staffed except for roving transit police, and there are currently NO turnstiles or barriers, so people ranging from bums, criminals, sometimes normal people, frequently don't pay for tickets.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=9715e3e2-3cee-47cb-88fc-8ee41cd8af76&k=58523

The B.C. government wants to take the crime train out of SkyTrain.

Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon unveiled ideas yesterday to radically overhaul the transit system to make it a safer ride -- and to stop fare evaders in their tracks.

His sweeping plans include:


Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon wants to install electronic turnstiles and prosecute cheaters criminally as part of a sweeping plan to make SkyTrain safer.
Ric Ernst - The Province

Installing electronic turnstiles at every SkyTrain and Canada Line station before the 2010 Olympics, along with more closed-circuit cameras.

- Launching a smart-card system to be used on trains and buses, which can be recharged at vending machines or on the Internet.

- Pursuing fare evaders with criminal prosecutions and on-the-spot fines.

- Boosting security outside SkyTrain stations.

- Improving safety for bus drivers.

Falcon said he was impressed by the London Underground and the Dutch Metro system in Rotterdam during a trip to Europe in September.

After talking with senior security officials in London, he became convinced SkyTrain needs to install turnstiles and more closed-circuit TV.

"The personal safety of commuters improves dramatically in a closed system," he told The Province.

"Women, in particular, feel safer and are safer. It's a controlled area and criminals generally stay out."

Falcon said turnstiles weed out the hang-arounds and reduce the chance of an act of terrorism.

The head of the Dutch transit system told Falcon that prior to installing its gated system, 60 per cent of all violence and assaults were caused by people who didn't pay fares.

After the turnstiles went in, fare evasion fell from 20 per cent to two per cent and ridership rose by almost 30 per cent.

Turnstiles have been priced at $100 million plus, but Falcon hopes to find a private partner to build and operate the system on a revenue-sharing basis.

A smart-card system would allow passengers to pay as they go by touching their card on an electronic reader. The card automatically debits the fare and can be topped up at stations or on the Internet.

"It's very easy to use," said Falcon. "It actually grows your ridership dramatically. It's really convenient."

Falcon called current fare-evasion enforcement in B.C. "a joke," with evaders giving bogus names and refusing to pay $173 fines.

Transit cops in London criminally charge evaders if they give wrong names and levy on-the-spot fines. Falcon wants a similar system here.

"Your fare-evasion figures drop to single figures overnight," he said. "The fact is, it's too easy for people not to pay today. It has a corrosive effect on the honest people."

Fare-evaders cost TransLink up to $7 million a year.

Falcon said he's also relying on municipalities to increase police presence around SkyTrain stations.

TransLink chairman Malcolm Brodie welcomed the turnstiles, smart-card system and toughening the fare-evasion regimen.

"I believe it's a matter of safety and security," he said. "And the perception and the reality of security will increase with the gated system."

Brodie said smart cards are "inevitable."

"Not only will the smart-card system support the turnstile system, I believe it will result in greater fare collection, and it will result in greater convenience to the public."

Meanwhile, commuters at the Waterfront SkyTrain station yesterday said the proposals make sense.

"I think turnstiles are a good idea," said SkyTrain rider Sharon Farrar, 50, of Port Coquitlam.

"Too many people are getting a free ride," she added.

Farrar also said more security cameras and more transit cops are welcome.

"There's no problem with more security if you aren't doing anything wrong," she said.

Jason Beck, 26, uses the SkyTrain regularly and wonders if fare cheats will be stopped by turnstiles.

"I think a lot of people will jump over the turnstiles," he said.

And he said he has more safety concerns when on buses.

"I think buses are worse than SkyTrains," he said.

"The stations are secure and most of the attacks are happening outside of the SkyTrain stations," he pointed out.

Summerland resident Krista Plomish, 35, in Vancouver on business, said she prefers to use the SkyTrain rather than her car.

She likes the system but knows ugly incidents happen.

"I have concerns about taking the SkyTrain at certain hours. More security is a good idea."

Falcon said he doesn't know the final cost of the security measures but will make sure TransLink gets the money to pull it off.

- Falcon also said he is thinking of starting random checks of vehicles and passengers prior to boarding B.C. Ferries to thwart terrorists.

"You can't check every vehicle and car," he said. "But there are random checks that could be undertaken. There are different ways you could approach it, that create real nervousness amongst people that have nefarious intentions."

jbermingham@png.canwest.com

Narci
Nov 9th, 2007, 12:18 PM
Finally..I've only been on the skytrain once since I moved here..they need the turnstyles. It'll cut down on vagrants reaching to all parts of the city for free.

Impossibles
Nov 9th, 2007, 12:42 PM
Unfortunately all this will result in is higher fares. But it should make for a safer transit system.

GangStarr
Nov 9th, 2007, 01:11 PM
crack heads will still jump the turnstiles. Perhaps that will be an olympic sport in 2010?

st7860
Nov 9th, 2007, 01:15 PM
what the article doesnt say (but many previous articles have said) is that most of the skytrain stations built before the year 1999(in other words, half of them) are not easily designed to have turnstiles, and as such will require tons of money to renovate.

the money would be better spent on increasing the numbers of attendants and transit police.

right now, the transit police spend too much time on funny things like stopping buses at a zone boundary---not to catch bums and evaders but to catch people that don't pay a 2 zone fare.

stuff352
Nov 9th, 2007, 02:18 PM
why not just hire some fare collectors, technology is not the solution to everthing.

Impossibles
Nov 9th, 2007, 02:29 PM
why not just hire some fare collectors, technology is not the solution to everthing.

I couldn't think of a worse system than having somebody manually taking your fares at each station.

30 stations x 4 cashiers (minimum average) x 20 hours/day x $15/hr average wage x 365 days a year = over $13 million annually.

HBP
Nov 9th, 2007, 02:44 PM
I couldn't think of a worse system than having somebody manually taking your fares at each station.

30 stations x 4 cashiers (minimum average) x 20 hours/day x $15/hr average wage x 365 days a year = over $13 million annually.

That's why we love the TTC.

Narci
Nov 9th, 2007, 02:51 PM
Ok..you want a faster payment system by having no attendants yet you want a safer station by adding attendents?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having 1 attendant at each station.

The attendant is a presence where people can ask for help or monitor the station should the need arise to call 911.

It won't be a slower payment system because of an attendant. You buy your fare card as normal, approach turnstiles and insert the card into the turnstile and enter the station.

The attendant is an alternative to buy fare other then using the self help box.

Eventually, i hope the system becomes much like HK where the fare card can be used as a debit card to buy transit fare and use at the 7-11 store etc.

The TTC is another beast. I've taken the TTC for over 25 years...the skytrain and the TTC are complete polar opposites of each other.

Impossibles
Nov 9th, 2007, 03:05 PM
Ok..you want a faster payment system by having no attendants yet you want a safer station by adding attendents?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having 1 attendant at each station.

The attendant is a presence where people can ask for help or monitor the station should the need arise to call 911.

It won't be a slower payment system because of an attendant. You buy your fare card as normal, approach turnstiles and insert the card into the turnstile and enter the station.

The attendant is an alternative to buy fare other then using the self help box.

Eventually, i hope the system becomes much like HK where the fare card can be used as a debit card to buy transit fare and use at the 7-11 store etc.

The TTC is another beast. I've taken the TTC for over 25 years...the skytrain and the TTC are complete polar opposites of each other.

Who are you arguing with?

majesus
Nov 9th, 2007, 03:16 PM
Is it going forward? Or are they "planning" as in they are thinking about it?

BTW, does it really help?

If someone doesn't want to pay, oh look turnstiles, *jump*

dhamilton
Nov 9th, 2007, 03:22 PM
Is it going forward? Or are they "planning" as in they are thinking about it?

BTW, does it really help?

If someone doesn't want to pay, oh look turnstiles, *jump*


For the stations in TO that don't have an operator, they have different turnstyles that go from floor to ceiling to prevent people from jumping the turnstyle. I doubt they'd put in a system that's as easy to abuse as that...if they did they're ******** :lol:

Narci
Nov 9th, 2007, 04:38 PM
Who are you arguing with?

Not arguing with anyone..just pointed out the different opnions so far.

majesus
Nov 9th, 2007, 04:43 PM
For the stations in TO that don't have an operator, they have different turnstyles that go from floor to ceiling to prevent people from jumping the turnstyle.

I see what you mean
http://www.alamedaphoto.org/Gallery/PrintMonth/PAAA~Turnstyle~Jan-DeLano!AL.jpg


I doubt they'd put in a system that's as easy to abuse as that...if they did they're ******** :lol:
It wouldn't surprise me.

d_jedi
Nov 9th, 2007, 07:02 PM
They should make it a criminal offense for repeat offenses of fare evasion..

st7860
Nov 9th, 2007, 07:05 PM
it was only recently that the fine for fare evasion was increased to $170. for many years it was just $40.

stuff352
Nov 9th, 2007, 07:32 PM
I couldn't think of a worse system than having somebody manually taking your fares at each station.

30 stations x 4 cashiers (minimum average) x 20 hours/day x $15/hr average wage x 365 days a year = over $13 million annually.

Remember that camera cost money and you need someone to watch the camera. Further you need someone to maintain the system (an crew of IT guys will charger much more than 15 bucks an hour).

Further actual people can serve many purpose not just look from behind a camera

1. Perform first aid - i have seen this on the TTC
2. Provide directions and other info
3.Can assess situations in real time
4. Have more scope and range than a camera - can easily look around and are mobile unlike cameras
5. It gives a more personal approach - the person is right infront of you not behind a camera it might result in more deterence

It cost more but provides extra value.


3.

wilson_wu
Nov 9th, 2007, 09:35 PM
it was only recently that the fine for fare evasion was increased to $170. for many years it was just $40.

Does it really matter?

Apprently, only less than 10% of the people fined pay up. So the system isn't deterring people from evading fares.

TenzoR
Nov 9th, 2007, 09:36 PM
why not just hire some fare collectors, technology is not the solution to everthing.

Look at TTC ;)

MilkyWind
Nov 9th, 2007, 09:39 PM
getting into the skytrain themselves are already as slow as they could be without the gates. adding gates would make traffic come to a standstill =(

anyways, here's another article that just came out on the same subject about it being too costly to implement:

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=8ee88cc5-17c1-4d44-8ddd-490e50e6c75e&k=29751

LonesomeDove
Nov 9th, 2007, 10:48 PM
It is about time, some sort of turnstyle is installed. Most, if not all of the mass transit systems in the world have turnstyles.

About this stupid question of jumping the turnstyles. How do London, New York, Toronto, Montreal, San Franciso, Paris, Hong Kong deal with this problem? Do they have a massive problem of people jumping turnstyles? I have never been to NY but on L&O on tv I see they have floor to ceiling tunstyles. How about other major cities in the world. Any world travellers out there?

And other cities have more population than Vancouver, are they slowed by turnstyles?

manixc
Nov 9th, 2007, 11:31 PM
Definitely a good idea, but knowing Translink they will probably botch it up somehow.

LonesomeDove
Nov 11th, 2007, 10:04 AM
And for those people worry about turnstyle jumpers, don't worry because I read in the newpaper there will be attendents.

And for those who think turnstyles will slow people down, it won't because there will not be a single turnstyle. It will likely be banks of gates/turnstyles for 10 to 20 people at a time. If it can be done in major cities like London, Paris, Hong Kong, it can be done in a medium size city like Vancouver.

st7860
Nov 11th, 2007, 10:08 AM
Definitely a good idea, but knowing Translink they will probably botch it up somehow.

the stations built in 2000(about 10 of them) were designed to more easily have turnstiles.

the stations built in 1986(about 12 of them) were not designed to more easily have turnstiles.

that means they have to rip out a lot of stuff.

konfusion666
Nov 11th, 2007, 01:27 PM
How do London, New York, Toronto, Montreal, San Franciso, Paris, Hong Kong deal with this problem? Do they have a massive problem of people jumping turnstyles? I have never been to NY but on L&O on tv I see they have floor to ceiling tunstyles. How about other major cities in the world. Any world travellers out there?

And other cities have more population than Vancouver, are they slowed by turnstyles?

I was in London & Paris in the summer. Paris had floor to ceiling "gateways" and there were always at least 3 beside each other (to prevent slowdowns) - not much chance for "jumping".
London had similar gateways but they weren't floor to ceiling. Most stations seemed to always have an attendant standing around near the row of barriers anyways.
Both cities' systems don't use TTC-style manual turnstyles but rather had these door-like things which would rapidly slam open and closed as people walked through them.
fares in London were expensive, double Toronto - but Paris was cheap, less than Toronto.

Narci
Nov 13th, 2007, 12:18 PM
For those who have never visited mass transit outside of vancouver..here's what a floor to ceiling turnstile looks like...

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/images/subway-5305-08.jpg

... try jumping that hehehe

gmark2000
Nov 13th, 2007, 12:31 PM
So the heroin addicts who break into your car/home now have to pay a fare to go the Vancouver Flea Market to fence your property now?