any tips on my website?

[s2kdarren]

i have had this website for a while and designed it myself does anyone feel i need a revamp or someone professional to design the site? anything missing? any info would help

Thanks in advance

http://www.drivegolan.com

[george benjamin]

Usually i dont criticize because i feel bad for the other person...

but your site looks like it was made in 1996.

Go here http://contests.sitepoint.com/ , offer 500-600 dollars, and get a nice site.

[lindmar]

Hey,

I would agree.. BUT, you have all the content down and on the hook.
Just needs to be prettied up a bit.

I am on my way out the door but I have a little more advice for you. I'll report back shortly.

[s2kdarren]

thanks :)

[van]

Content is adequate, and as mensioned probably needs a 2007 cosmetic update but I don't really think it's nessesary.

BTW, what's up with the S2000 in the bottom right-hand corner? Is that the car people will be training in? ;)

[s2kdarren]

lol good eye, that s2000 was my personal car but recently replaced for a 335 convertible :) students get the luxury of my acura 1.6el with sport package :P also known as a civic with a different badge :)

[Suresh]

Usually i dont criticize because i feel bad for the other person...

but your site looks like it was made in 1996.

Go here http://contests.sitepoint.com/ , offer 500-600 dollars, and get a nice site.

or you can go here, www.joomla.org and build one for your own site for free with numerous templates available.

[wheel]

Both your content (given a two second drive by) and your layout are absolutely fine. Don't be changing things!

Having people tell you that a site is dated and looks like it was made in the 90's is something you should take as a compliment, not a reason to change. There's some very good reasons for this:

People are looking for information. Not pleasing layouts. In.for.mation. Early sites before the web became a commercial hive did just that - they were ugly, built in Frontpage 1956. And they focused on information. Your site is focused on information, not layout. Consumers want this.

People also trust these sites. In fact, this is something totally bizarre about your site. It's what, 2 years old? And looks like it's 10 years old. You need to keep that look - it makes your business look trustworthy and like it's been around an awful long time. You've managed to take what's basically a new site and give it the look of an ancient site - many of the pro's I know try do do this and I don't know that they're even as successful as what you've stumbled on.

There might be some minor tweaks you could make to convert people more, or get people to call you a bit more, or to rank a bit better. But the basic 'redo the site layout from scratch' is not one I'd suggest you should do without a much stronger motivation. To some extent, this is like the movie business - the expert critics will pull an Arnold movie to bits, yet the general public lay down their money in droves. You want to please the knowledgeable critics or the public?

You know what I want my sites to look like? The personal web page of a university professor who personally maintains his web page, and hasn't touched it since 1999.

[Craig123]

I took a look at your site and the content is good. It does not look professional but thats not the problem. The problem is that your site is not currently ranked in google. The reason for this is that your page is not optimized properly. I am a student and I also run my own small online marketing firm. So here are a couple tips.

- Use a different geographic keyword. For example use "Thornhill Driving School". Put this keyword in your title tags <title>
-Use <h3> header tags at the top of your page with your keyword, as well as <h1> tags at the bottom. ex. <h1> Thorn Hill Driving School </h1>
- Bold your keyword and italicize it through out your page.
- redesign your navagational bar in simple html, use a table and a list.
- Generate more links to your website you can buy them or do link exchanges.

The whole point of these changes is to make your site visible to Google and narrow and define your products and services.

If you are still stuck here is an example of a website I have recenltly optimized. http://www.truenorthchev.com

[wheel]

I took a look at your site and the content is good. It does not look professional but thats not the problem. The problem is that your site is not currently ranked in google. The reason for this is that your page is not optimized properly. I am a student and I also run my own small online marketing firm. So here are a couple tips.

- Use a different geographic keyword. For example use "Thornhill Driving School". Put this keyword in your title tags <title>
-Use <h3> header tags at the top of your page with your keyword, as well as <h1> tags at the bottom. ex. <h1> Thorn Hill Driving School </h1>
- Bold your keyword and italicize it through out your page.
- redesign your navagational bar in simple html, use a table and a list.
- Generate more links to your website you can buy them or do link exchanges.

The whole point of these changes is to make your site visible to Google and narrow and define your products and services.

If you are still stuck here is an example of a website I have recenltly optimized. http://www.truenorthchev.com
+1 on that stuff generally. BUT - don't overdo it or you run the risk of getting penalized for overoptimizing. On a noncompetitve term you can probably get away with just putting the text on the page then getting 2 or three links to your site with that text.

I recently optimized a site for a similiar term. All I did was add the words on the page once, then I put 10 blog links to it using variations of those terms. That got the site ranked #1-#3 across a slew of secondary terms - which is likely what you're looking to do.

[s2kdarren]

+1 on that stuff generally. BUT - don't overdo it or you run the risk of getting penalized for overoptimizing. On a noncompetitve term you can probably get away with just putting the text on the page then getting 2 or three links to your site with that text.

I recently optimized a site for a similiar term. All I did was add the words on the page once, then I put 10 blog links to it using variations of those terms. That got the site ranked #1-#3 across a slew of secondary terms - which is likely what you're looking to do.

blog links to those words? like go to a blog site and do a fake blog and link directly to my website?

sorry im not good at this stuff :)

[wheel]

Fake? Hell no they're real, bought and paid for :).

www.blogsvertise.com. Get a half dozen bloggers to write a blog post about your site; you can suggest anchor text to the bloggers. I believe it'll cost $10-$20 a blog.

Again, be careful. This is in the category of 'easy links' and right now it works like a charm. I wouldn't normally do something as automated as that myself on my main sites. And right now when I do it, I only do so basically as 'background' links. However I think in your case you'll be fine. Just don't go buy 25 and get them all done in one day. Buy a half dozen and wait a couple of months, see how you do. You'll see something in the way of results; if it doesn't get you high enough buy another half dozen in a couple of months. Grow slowly and steadily, not all at once.

Caveat: I'm friends with the owner of that blog site; however I'd like to think that I only use that stuff based on it's own merits.

[setell]

Well not sure if I'm too mean but I really thought your site was just too plain and gross. I seriously wouldn't consider a driving school or any business if they can't spend a bit of money or time to build a decent site unless you had a steller reputation that will make me look pass the crappy site. Your usage of fonts and sizes isn't very appropriate at various places. That classroom pic is too grainy and doesn't have a high enough resolution because it looks like it was taken on a cheap older digital camera and you stretched the pic to make it bigger. Many of your pages seem a bit disorganized as well. The main page that have a lot of mistakes and need fixing badly is the contacts page. Anyhow that's just the comments I have from surfing the site for a bit. I could probably really pick apart your site but not sure if I'm going over board if I do that.

[s2kdarren]

its ok to be honest... thank goodness we have a reputation :)

[cdnNick]

I wouldn't suggest a total redesign of the site, maybe just some tweaking to it. Yeah the site might look a bit older but not everything needs to be 'web 2.0'. I'd move your phone number up to the top of the page, instead of having it down on the bottom left.

[ullyeus]

Both your content (given a two second drive by) and your layout are absolutely fine. Don't be changing things!

Having people tell you that a site is dated and looks like it was made in the 90's is something you should take as a compliment, not a reason to change. There's some very good reasons for this:

People are looking for information. Not pleasing layouts. In.for.mation. Early sites before the web became a commercial hive did just that - they were ugly, built in Frontpage 1956. And they focused on information. Your site is focused on information, not layout. Consumers want this.

People also trust these sites. In fact, this is something totally bizarre about your site. It's what, 2 years old? And looks like it's 10 years old. You need to keep that look - it makes your business look trustworthy and like it's been around an awful long time. You've managed to take what's basically a new site and give it the look of an ancient site - many of the pro's I know try do do this and I don't know that they're even as successful as what you've stumbled on.

There might be some minor tweaks you could make to convert people more, or get people to call you a bit more, or to rank a bit better. But the basic 'redo the site layout from scratch' is not one I'd suggest you should do without a much stronger motivation. To some extent, this is like the movie business - the expert critics will pull an Arnold movie to bits, yet the general public lay down their money in droves. You want to please the knowledgeable critics or the public?

You know what I want my sites to look like? The personal web page of a university professor who personally maintains his web page, and hasn't touched it since 1999.

No...consumers want information AND a professional looking site with a good layout...which his current site lacks.

I don't think your site is bad, shift the phone number and pick a san-serif font and I'd be much happier with it. Get some better quality pictures of the classroom too.

[stevelam]

You know what I want my sites to look like? The personal web page of a university professor who personally maintains his web page, and hasn't touched it since 1999.

err yah ok...someones a little too into that clown, jacob nielsen.

No...consumers want information AND a professional looking site with a good layout...which his current site lacks.

I don't think your site is bad, shift the phone number and pick a san-serif font and I'd be much happier with it. Get some better quality pictures of the classroom too.

agreed. i stay away from any website looking like this unless theres an established reputation beyond all doubt.

an example would be IMM modeling (http://www.michelesintl.com/). if it weren't for the fact its relatively known that supermodels like jessica stam started there, i don't see how any person could possibly trust such a site.

[wheel]

It's not jacob neilson. It's cash. Designers carry on about how consumers want pretty websites. Experience (and what other folks that I know say) says the opposite.

The designs on many of my pages are plain,basic, and 5 years old. And they have the top performing numbers in the industry.

Advising that sites that look old need to be prettied up IMO are either web designers (who don't make their money from the actual performance of a site) or inexperienced. Suggestions that 'I wouldn't use the site' are meaningless - we're not a representative sample. The general public disagrees, en masse.

[cdnNick]

Do these sites suffer because of their design?

www.craigslist.org
www.google.com <-- pretty plain and boring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

[testinz]

I think the site looks great. Simple, easy to use and informative.

The only thing I would change is to get all the mouse-over images loaded in advance and put the phone number on the top right instead of bottom left.

[hrmmm]

Consumers want a pretty layout for a driving school? For what???

I pretty much agree with most of what wheel said. The OP website isn't bad. In fact, I actually have no major complaints about it. The most important thing for me was that I could find the information I needed easily on the web site. For example, I could find the phone number/address from the "about" link which was easily located at first glance. You don't know how hard that is to find on some business web sites out there, but it wasn't a problem with this one.

[kingkao]

Its a website for a driving school. It doesn't need to WOW anyone off their seat. Just needs to have the adequate information. If anyone has tried to book a driver test off the ministry's website, you'll know what JUNK is. So this website is more then adequate for the job. Sure it looks dated, but, it is good.

The only constructive criticism I can give is, why such a modern/racing design for a logo. Should be out promoting safety, defensive driving, all the junk. This may attract teens, but the person fitting the bills for them are their parents.

[s2kdarren]

really appreciate all the feedback guys!

[stevelam]

Do these sites suffer because of their design?

www.craigslist.org
www.google.com <-- pretty plain and boring
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

these examples do not apply whatsoever. can a site be successful while looking ugly? obviously. but WHY are these sites successful?

1) they are free. users have absolutely nothing to lose when using them (well besides some trust/privacy issues with google. but this has already been circumvented due to their established reputation anyway)
2) they work very well and are arguably the best at what they do.
3) they've managed to grab ahold of their niche target area using amongst other things, the first two aforementioned points.
4) they rely on a community-driven mentality. its the only reason why such shite sites like myspace continue to thrive. are you going to get the same type of backing for a business site dealing with ontario driving lessons? hell no.

sites like google, wikipedia, etc clearly have no purpose in focusing on aesthetic design (which is not to say they aren't actually well designed for their purpose). they gain more from having good usability and functionality.

this isnt the same as a business-oriented site trying to gain your trust and money. when im at google.com or wikipedia.com i am not there to consider whether i want to use their service or not. i simply already am. of course content is the most important factor but things change when you are trying to actually sell a localised product/service in where presentation should obviously be a consideration.

so does google suffer from their design? no, they actually GAIN from their design. a simple, no-frills(at least visually), fast and functional search engine with a matching, simplistic look. its how i would expect it. now when im looking at sites trying to get me to spend money, they better be going all out (not to be confused with your typical 1999 all-flash site) to win me over.

[stevelam]

Its a website for a driving school. It doesn't need to WOW anyone off their seat. Just needs to have the adequate information. If anyone has tried to book a driver test off the ministry's website, you'll know what JUNK is. So this website is more then adequate for the job. Sure it looks dated, but, it is good.

this logic doesn't apply either. the ministry of transportation is not CONTENDING for your business. you HAVE to use the ministry site if you want to book a driver test online.

[cdnNick]

these examples do not apply whatsoever. can a site be successful while looking ugly? obviously. but WHY are these sites successful?


But discrediting a site just based on it's looks is silly. You have to think of the target market, yes the kids are the people using the service but the parents are the ones researching it and making the purchase. I know when I did driving school my mom looked for the best place, I had nothing to do with the decision making, not many parents out there would look at that site and say oh that's so 1999, I'm not sending my child there.

Now if he pulled up in a '70s rusted out Pinto for the lesson then I would have issues.

[hrmmm]

of course content is the most important factor but things change when you are trying to actually sell a localised product/service in where presentation should obviously be a consideration.

And why is presentation so important for a driving school web site? I still don't understand. If I were to pick a driving school, surely you are not telling me that the ultimate choice should be based on "pretty" web sites that was built using the latest and coolest Web 2.0 technologies. I don't really know how this help them get my money.

The most important factor, as you already mentioned, is reputation and word of mouth. For example, most recently I just dumped Rogers Hi-Speed and went with TekSavvy based on the reviews on this forum. Now I would never have done this without carefully examining what positive things people have to say about TekSavvy. Check out http://www.teksavvy.com/ WOW now thats the reason they got my money! (insert sarcasm smiley)

Now if I do shopping online, presentation actually matters because the whole entire experience matters to me. Think Amazon. But for a driving school, people ain't going to put their credit cards on there. They probably simply just want more information about accessibilty, scheduling, availability, costs, etc. and a phone number to contact if they have questions.

[ullyeus]

But discrediting a site just based on it's looks is silly.

But people would do it...hell even if its 5% of the people who would do it...wouldn't the couple of hundred dollars or a few hours or work be worth it to get that extra 5% ?

[stevelam]

And why is presentation so important for a driving school web site? I still don't understand. If I were to pick a driving school, surely you are not telling me that the ultimate choice should be based on "pretty" web sites that was built using the latest and coolest Web 2.0 technologies. I don't really know how this help them get my money.

The most important factor, as you already mentioned, is reputation and word of mouth. For example, most recently I just dumped Rogers Hi-Speed and went with TekSavvy based on the reviews on this forum. Now I would never have done this without carefully examining what positive things people have to say about TekSavvy. Check out http://www.teksavvy.com/ WOW now thats the reason they got my money! (insert sarcasm smiley)

Now if I do shopping online, presentation actually matters because the whole entire experience matters to me. Think Amazon. But for a driving school, people ain't going to put their credit cards on there. They probably simply just want more information about accessibilty, scheduling, availability, costs, etc. and a phone number to contact if they have questions.

good design has absolutely nothing to do with fancy ajax-driven web 2.0 design so i'm not sure why you're trying to push the argument in that direction. as for reputation, i've never even heard of this driving school before. so why should i choose them over another driving school? especially since we're on the web and 'drive-by' viewings could mean your business or not, are you seriously telling me presentation isn't taken into consideration when you have so many other options to choose from?

[ullyeus]

And why is presentation so important for a driving school web site? I still don't understand.

Presentation is important for any business that is selling things.

Whether its your building being painted every few years, keeping the lawn mowed, wearing nice clothes, having a good sign, having nice business cards, whatever.

Why ISN'T it important?

bottom line, for minimum work this business could be presented in a more professional manner, so why no do it? As in my other example if only 5% of the people think the site is amateurish and move on to your next competitor...wouldn't you want to save that 5%?

We aren't talking about thousands of dollars, or weeks of work, or a complete change in business here....a couple of hours or a few hundred dollars of a web designer would really make this site shine.

[stevelam]

But discrediting a site just based on it's looks is silly. You have to think of the target market, yes the kids are the people using the service but the parents are the ones researching it and making the purchase. I know when I did driving school my mom looked for the best place, I had nothing to do with the decision making, not many parents out there would look at that site and say oh that's so 1999, I'm not sending my child there.

Now if he pulled up in a '70s rusted out Pinto for the lesson then I would have issues.

i do fully agree that knowing your target market is key and maybe i've come across a bit harsh in this instance. i'm sure my wannabe-web designer eyes have much to do with it as well. still, the website in question is usable but it could definitely LOOK better and i dont mean in that fancy dancy web 2.0 nonsense kind of way. what can you stand to lose? everyone likes aesthetics. the business would look more professional.

I still like to cite my example of IMM model agency (http://www.michelesintl.com). a website that looks so ridiculous i highly doubt anyone would trust them solely because it just LOOKS untrustworthy (were it not for their relatively known reputation).

either way, i'd recommend the 'about us' page to at least have the same margin/padding of the text as the rest of the pages for consistency's sake.

[hrmmm]

As in my other example if only 5% of the people think the site is amateurish and move on to your next competitor...wouldn't you want to save that 5%?



That's pure speculation on your part. Do you have any evidence, backed by research data, that having an "amateurish" site affects the bottom-line for a driving school?

And you assume that any business have unlimited resources at their disposal? I mean, don't get me wrong. If you have the resources and time to make the web site look fantastic, then by all means go do it. But that means other operational areas of the business would need to suffer because, as we all know, it's about trade-offs. This is a driving school, not MySpace so lets get the priorities straight. The driving school is probably going to get most of their business through building a good reputation by hiring good instructors (thereby high pass rate), easy schedule, affordable and accessibility across many geographic areas. I would rather spend my money to focus improving those areas first.

[s2kdarren]

I must say most websites of other driving schools in my area are quite poor, I do get a lot of traffic and a lot of email inquiries to the school. but i do not disagree making the site look a little more professional for a few hundred dollars wont be a bad idea, however i am wondering how many more customers will actually care. sure some would care... could I lose some customers making it all fancy dancy? maybe.

[hrmmm]

I must say most websites of other driving schools in my area are quite poor, I do get a lot of traffic and a lot of email inquiries to the school.
Hmm... so you get a lot of traffic and email inquiries, I guess there's must be something wrong with your web site. ;) Just as I also thought--there aren't many driving school web sites out there. The fact that you actually build one that's at least decent looking gives you a competitive advantage.

Lets be real. Most of your visitors won't be returning to your web site as if it is a blog or news site. They are simply there to want one thing: information. Make it quick and easy for them to find. I bet most of your inquiries wasn't about how crappy your web site look. Probably more along the line of concerns related to the actual driving practice or something that's more specific.

[stevelam]

That's pure speculation on your part. Do you have any evidence, backed by research data, that having an "amateurish" site affects the bottom-line for a driving school?

And you assume that any business have unlimited resources at their disposal? I mean, don't get me wrong. If you have the resources and time to make the web site look fantastic, then by all means go do it. But that means other operational areas of the business would need to suffer because, as we all know, it's about trade-offs. This is a driving school, not MySpace so lets get the priorities straight. The driving school is probably going to get most of their business through building a good reputation by hiring good instructors (thereby high pass rate), easy schedule, affordable and accessibility across many geographic areas. I would rather spend my money to focus improving those areas first.

forehead slap. pretty much everything in this thread is going straight over your head. just move along and come back when you can actually lace your yammering with some actual substance. are you sure you're not purely speculating too? and what kind of example is your comment "this is a driving school, not myspace" supposed to reflect upon yourself other than the fact that it makes absolutely no sense? how does that even apply at all? are you saying myspace is well designed? or are you saying bad designs like myspace help it grow? please elaborate!

[hrmmm]

MySpace' success depends entirely on its user base. Its entire business is done over the web so you can make an argument that its web site layout/design needs to be carefully considered and designed to attract the masses. Same thing for YouTube, Amazon, Ebay, LinkedIn. Compare these kind of web sites to those of driving schools, you tell me if equal amount of consideration on web layout/design should be given to them. I say no for the reason that those users will most likely not be returning users so why waste precious resources on upgrading a layout/design that may or may not really help the bottom line?

I also understand why you seem so biased as to wanting a more professional layout since by judging the looks of your web site, you seem to know a thing or two about designing professional web sites. In your eyes, you probably wished that every web site to look like that of your own. Understandable.


forehead slap. pretty much everything in this thread is going straight over your head. just move along and come back when you can actually lace your yammering with some actual substance. are you sure you're not purely speculating too? and what kind of example is your comment "this is a driving school, not myspace" supposed to reflect upon yourself other than the fact that it makes absolutely no sense? how does that even apply at all? are you saying myspace is well designed? or are you saying bad designs like myspace help it grow? please elaborate!

[ullyeus]

hrmmm....I'm kinda of just at a loss for words with you.

[hrmmm]

ullyeus....that's okay. stay in school and pay more attention in class. You'll learn enough one day to be able to understand.

[stevelam]

MySpace' success depends entirely on its user base. Its entire business is done over the web so you can make an argument that its web site layout/design needs to be carefully considered and designed to attract the masses. Same thing for YouTube, Amazon, Ebay, LinkedIn. Compare these kind of web sites to those of driving schools, you tell me if equal amount of consideration on web layout/design should be given to them. I say no for the reason that those users will most likely not be returning users so why waste precious resources on upgrading a layout/design that may or may not really help the bottom line?


dear lord you do realize you have just COMPLETELY contradicted yourself right?