Chinese medicine practitioner in Scarborough/Markham

[Elisa.woods]

I want to try some Chinese medicine. I see a lot of Chinese medicine practitioners in this area. Anyone can recommend a good and reliable one?
Are those in Pacific Mall good?

[woodstock827]

In Pacific Mall, there's a Chinese herbs store right at the Kennedy Road entrance (the entrance without stairs). The practitioner there is old and is suppose to be one of the best even in China.
But be warned that he's only in Canada for a few months at a time, and when he's there, it's PACKED and you need book appointments way before hand... His name is "Wong Choi Man" or similar pronouciation.

And please also note that people talk about "matching" with their Chinese doctors, or being compatible. A Chinese doctor might work really well with one patient, but doesn't work as well with another. Therefore, you really should try another one if you feel one doctor's medicine is not helping you much.

[vladislav]

And please also note that people talk about "matching" with their Chinese doctors, or being compatible. A Chinese doctor might work really well with one patient, but doesn't work as well with another. Therefore, you really should try another one if you feel one doctor's medicine is not helping you much.

This kind of tells you everything you need to know about their 'healing' ability. Good luck and don't spend too much money.

[JAGpilot]

Save your money. Your not going to cure anything by drinking teas and eating dried plants.

[Menace]

I agree. A lot of these "doctors" are crooks. You may be better off by reading some books on Chinese medicine.

Save your money. Your not going to cure anything by drinking teas and eating dried plants.

[woodstock827]

or Chinese medicine just works different than western medicine.. Not saying there aren't crooks in the field, but it's just disrespectful to say all of them are crooks or Chinese medicine doesn't work..

It's not as quick as western medicine, but I'm sure it's better for you than your antibiotics. And I wouldn't exactly call the medicine "tea"...

[vladislav]

Well, talking from experience here. Two members of my family went to the same guy who seemed very legit with a place full of different animals/roots/leafs/etc. They got to drink the nastiest smelling/tasting stuff for a long time, neither one got any results but they sure spent a penny. The reason they went there in the first place was because western medicine couldn't do anything for them either (heart and kidney problems). I guess the difference is that one is at least covered by OHIP.

[ephemera]

Snake oil always worked for me.

[Kranberry]

Well, talking from experience here. Two members of my family went to the same guy who seemed very legit with a place full of different animals/roots/leafs/etc. They got to drink the nastiest smelling/tasting stuff for a long time, neither one got any results but they sure spent a penny. The reason they went there in the first place was because western medicine couldn't do anything for them either (heart and kidney problems). I guess the difference is that one is at least covered by OHIP.

Not saying Chinese medicine works or doesn't, but by your own logic, then western medicine we should stay away from too. I mean, they certainly didn't work for the two members of your family. Heck we should all join the Church of Scientology and use faith healing then! :lol:

Just because there wasn't a cure for that particular malady does not necessarily equate to the fact that there could be legitimate uses for alternative medicines including Chinese medicine.

[Menace]

I also heard Tiger dicks work well too ;)

Snake oil always worked for me.

[getmail99]

Well, talking from experience here. Two members of my family went to the same guy who seemed very legit with a place full of different animals/roots/leafs/etc. They got to drink the nastiest smelling/tasting stuff for a long time, neither one got any results but they sure spent a penny. The reason they went there in the first place was because western medicine couldn't do anything for them either (heart and kidney problems). I guess the difference is that one is at least covered by OHIP.

Ha ha, my experience is always the other way around. Most of the western medicine does not work and Chinese medicine works.

For example, see this thread.
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480239&highlight=chinese+medicine

[rfdrfd]

There is nothing wrong with trying out different types of healing. If one type doesn't work, definitely go to another. Unless you don't care about your own health and can just live with it.

There has been many documented cases of Cancers that Western medicine could not cure, person told by MDs that they will die in 3 months, but they went to China and followed Chinese Medicinal Dr. and that guy's cancer has totally been cured. Guy living happily now. Western X-rays, tests, proves it. Google it.

I'm sure if you were born in older parts of China, your first Dr. would be practicing Chinese medicine. They you'd be saying "Amm... I heard about those Western Dr's... are they any good?" Reply: "No way man, they give you these strange hard pills, you get stomach ache, sometimes headaches, and sometimes even allergic reactions! Stay away"

If your "MD"'s advice does not help, I say go try: Naturalpathic Dr's, and Chinese Medicinal Dr. Whatever order you feel like it.

[whampoa]

Well, talking from experience here. Two members of my family went to the same guy who seemed very legit with a place full of different animals/roots/leafs/etc. They got to drink the nastiest smelling/tasting stuff for a long time, neither one got any results but they sure spent a penny. The reason they went there in the first place was because western medicine couldn't do anything for them either (heart and kidney problems). I guess the difference is that one is at least covered by OHIP.

I am in the same boat as you are!

A family member is diagnose with colon cancer. Conventional medicine, aka chemotherapy, blood transfusion, etc. only prolong his life for a few years before it catches up. Only giving months to live.

As a last resource, he tried Chinese medicine, the doctor promise to cure everything under the sun. He spent a small fortune, but eventually resigns to himself that he only have a few days to live.

[rdtx2002]

I agree. A lot of these "doctors" are crooks. You may be better off by reading some books on Chinese medicine.

that is a very ignorant statement. I'd like to see you read Chinese Medicine books and the Herbal books and see if you can mix and match the right types of medicine so that a person doesn't die.

Save your money. Your not going to cure anything by drinking teas and eating dried plants.

Chinese Medicine is not for everything. Just like how Western Medicine is not the end all and be all of medical care.

[Menace]

I usually see the difference between Chinese herbal remedies and the practice of Chinese medicine, and I found there are a lot bs in latter. There aren't enough scientific proof on what does work and what doesn't. If you strongly believe the practice of Chinese medicine will work for you, then it will surely make you feel better.

that is a very ignorant statement. I'd like to see you read Chinese Medicine books and the Herbal books and see if you can mix and match the right types of medicine so that a person doesn't die.



Chinese Medicine is not for everything. Just like how Western Medicine is not the end all and be all of medical care.

[vladislav]

Not saying Chinese medicine works or doesn't, but by your own logic, then western medicine we should stay away from too. I mean, they certainly didn't work for the two members of your family. Heck we should all join the Church of Scientology and use faith healing then! :lol:

Just because there wasn't a cure for that particular malady does not necessarily equate to the fact that there could be legitimate uses for alternative medicines including Chinese medicine.

The difference is that Chinese guy said he will cure everything just buy the concoctions and western medicine said we can't cure this, there is nothing we can really do short of heart surgery. That's my issue. As it stands now after years of trying different things (including nontraditional medicine) the heart surgery was performed and finally gave the result we were hoping for. Sadly, so far all I've seen from Chinese nontraditional/herbal/whatever medicine was at most the placebo effect.

Trust me, I would much rather eat/drink grass/roots of any sort than antibiotics or any other chemicals. I always give everything a chance but let's just say so far I was unimpressed by Chinese medicine.

[rdtx2002]

I usually see the difference between Chinese herbal remedies and the practice of Chinese medicine, and I found there are a lot bs in latter. There aren't enough scientific proof on what does work and what doesn't. If you strongly believe the practice of Chinese medicine will work for you, then it will surely make you feel better.

not everything has to be scientifically proven for it to be 'valid'

[Nakuruin]

In Pacific Mall, there's a Chinese herbs store right at the Kennedy Road entrance (the entrance without stairs). The practitioner there is old and is suppose to be one of the best even in China.
But be warned that he's only in Canada for a few months at a time, and when he's there, it's PACKED and you need book appointments way before hand... His name is "Wong Choi Man" or similar pronouciation.

And please also note that people talk about "matching" with their Chinese doctors, or being compatible. A Chinese doctor might work really well with one patient, but doesn't work as well with another. Therefore, you really should try another one if you feel one doctor's medicine is not helping you much.

I had to wait there for 2 hours even though I had an appointment. I didn't and still don't really believe this kinda of healing but i used to get really bad stomach pains. I went to my doctor and he couldn't prescribe anything to me besides painkillers... Due to my parent's insistence, i took the Chinese medicine and the pains are virtually gone but i get them maybe 1 every 6 months.

Might not heal completely, but it helped me quite a bit.

[elty]

Anyone has the phone number of that person?

[jayk]

A lot of western medicine doesn't work either. Most allergy medications are ******** and don't do much in terms of your symptoms even though you kinda think they're doing SOMETHING. And how much does Claritin cost? $25 for a 2 week supply?

[Bordello]

...i used to get really bad stomach pains. I went to my doctor and he couldn't prescribe anything to me besides painkillers...
If all your family doctor did was prescribe you painkillers for stomach pain, get a new family doctor quickly. That's just plain incompetence.

[Elisa.woods]

I had to wait there for 2 hours even though I had an appointment. I didn't and still don't really believe this kinda of healing but i used to get really bad stomach pains. I went to my doctor and he couldn't prescribe anything to me besides painkillers... Due to my parent's insistence, i took the Chinese medicine and the pains are virtually gone but i get them maybe 1 every 6 months.

Might not heal completely, but it helped me quite a bit.

I have bad stomach pains as well. How much medicine did you take before you feel better?

How much do they normally charge?

[Kranberry]

The difference is that Chinese guy said he will cure everything just buy the concoctions and western medicine said we can't cure this, there is nothing we can really do short of heart surgery. That's my issue. As it stands now after years of trying different things (including nontraditional medicine) the heart surgery was performed and finally gave the result we were hoping for. Sadly, so far all I've seen from Chinese nontraditional/herbal/whatever medicine was at most the placebo effect.

Trust me, I would much rather eat/drink grass/roots of any sort than antibiotics or any other chemicals. I always give everything a chance but let's just say so far I was unimpressed by Chinese medicine.

Ok, but then THAT particular practitioner is a crook. That doesn't mean the art of Chinese medicine is a crock. There's a history behind Chinese medicine, some of it good, some of it not so good. So your issue is basically with crooks and not with the medicine.

You have a history of medicine that goes back thousands of years, yes, like I said, some of it is not so good, but some of it has basis. It may not cure all ailments, but I'm sure there are some basic treatments that do work. Again not for all, but neither is western medicine good for everything. There is a place for both, and I think the only thing lacking is regulations. If Chinese practitioners were regulated like today's western physicians, I'm sure you would have a lot less crooks, not nil, but a lot less.

[Mochacha]

BTW, why do people think Chinese medicine "cure" diseases?
Unlike western medicine more focusing on "fighting" diseases, Chinese medication is more on "balancing" your body. It's more like when you are sick, it's because something goes off balance inside your body. Chinese medicine would put back your body to "balance" state. Well I'm no professional on Chinese medicine and that's all I can explain...

[Menace]

That is the problem. If you go to a different doctor, he would tell the different "balancing" act. There is no standard at all.


Unlike western medicine more focusing on "fighting" diseases, Chinese medication is more on "balancing" your body. .

[getmail99]

BTW, why do people think Chinese medicine "cure" diseases?
Unlike western medicine more focusing on "fighting" diseases, Chinese medication is more on "balancing" your body. It's more like when you are sick, it's because something goes off balance inside your body. Chinese medicine would put back your body to "balance" state. Well I'm no professional on Chinese medicine and that's all I can explain...

That is the problem. If you go to a different doctor, he would tell the different "balancing" act. There is no standard at all.

Yes, there is standard and university training in China.

[Munchos]

A fool and their money are easily seperated.

[rdtx2002]

Yes, there is standard and university training in China.

there is also TCM training and standards in BC and in the USA and soon in Ontario

[march9]

many chinese medicine also come in forms of pill now, so you don't have to drink those nasty or strange smelling stuff.
just thought you might want to know...

I have to say that chinese medicine is a hit and miss though, sometimes it works amazingly well, sometimes it just doesn't..well for one thing I don't think Chinese medicine has much negative effect, (not as much as western medicine, at least), so what's the worst it could happen? there is no harm in trying.

[getmail99]

there is also TCM training and standards in BC and in the USA and soon in Ontario

Yes, I thought about getting formal license in Toronto, I was self study. Probably too late and too lazy to change career now, lol :cheesygri

[Muncher]

It's a matter of knowing what to take when. I used to read about it and laugh about the astralagus, cordyceps, shark fin, ginkgo, goju, etc. Now guess what? All these things are appearing in the Western herbal stores in the forms of pills and everyone says they work "scientifically". Just like the different teas ...

I'm scared of acupuncture though, I reckon when you have pain in a place, they stick the needle into you and kill the nerve and that's why no more pain.

[blizzah]

www.chinesehealthway.com

[king_george]

not everything has to be scientifically proven for it to be 'valid'

Only for the gullible.

Give me evidence-based medicine anytime over promises and anecdotes. You however are free to gulp down all the snake oil you please. TCM has never once helped me or any of my family so we will not go there again.

If Chinese medicines work as well as you say it does, why are there very very few lab tests showing the veracity and effectiveness? OTOH, no western medicines are allowed to be prescribed to the public without extensive testing to show that it will work.

I wouldn't recommend anything alternative. BTW there are only two types of medicines...those that work and those that don't. Alternative medicine is a euphenism for "People tell us it helps but we can't prove it".

[Nakuruin]

I have bad stomach pains as well. How much medicine did you take before you feel better?

How much do they normally charge?

I haven't gone there in a long time, but it was like $10 for the appointment and $20 per pack of "medicine" I think. The prices have probably risen cause the doctor at Tin Hing in pmall is very popular.

I went every few months, and the pains were in between menstrual cycles, which is why the doctor couldn't really prescribe anything for it.

[getmail99]

If Chinese medicines work as well as you say it does, why are there very very few lab tests showing the veracity and effectiveness?


For example, here is one that shows Chinese medicine works.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=17036476&dopt=AbstractPlus

Clinical observation on therapeutic effect of electroacupuncture at Sanyinjiao (SP 6) on peri-menopausal syndrome


CONCLUSION: EA at Sanyinjiao (SP 6) is effective and safe for treatment of peri-menopausal syndrome.



OTOH, no western medicines are allowed to be prescribed to the public without extensive testing to show that it will work.


Although this is from wiki, it still shows that Thalidomide is a joke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide


The Grünenthal scientists could not find any antibiotic activity, or any other encouraging effects, in mice and rats. However, the new chemical seemed to be harmless; high doses did not kill rodents, rabbits, cats or dogs, nor show any other side effects.[3] The research team began to describe thalidomide as "nontoxic" and Grünenthal began to consider the lucrative prospects of their new find. Although no sedative or tranquilizing effects were observed in animals, Grünenthal management considered "a nonlethal sedative would have enormous market potential".[3]

With no teratogenicity tests (tests on pregnant animals), no clinical trial plans, and no scientific rationale, Grünenthal began distributing free samples of thalidomide to doctors in Switzerland and West Germany in 1955. It was first recommended for the prevention of seizures in patients with epilepsy; although no anticonvulsant effect was found, patients reported experiencing a deep sleep. Other patients said they felt calming and soothing effects. Some reported side effects, but they were not believed to be serious.[3] One author later said that "Thalidomide was introduced by the method of Russian Roulette. Practically nothing was known about the drug at the time of its marketing".

only starting from 1962, "they would have to show their new drugs were safe and effective."


More importantly, a controversial bill by U.S. Senator Estes Kefauver, of Tennessee, was resurrected and rewritten, passed by Congress, and signed by President John F. Kennedy on October 10, 1962. The Kefauver Harris Amendment strengthened the FDA's control of experimentation on humans and changed the way new drugs were approved and regulated. Before the thalidomide scandal, U.S. drug companies only had to show their new products were safe; for the first time, they would have to show their new drugs were safe and effective.[6] Informed consent was required of patients participating in clinical trials and adverse drug reactions were required to be reported to the FDA.

[rdtx2002]

Only for the gullible.

Give me evidence-based medicine anytime over promises and anecdotes. You however are free to gulp down all the snake oil you please. TCM has never once helped me or any of my family so we will not go there again.

fine that is your opinion. But you can't conclude that it is a 100% joke practice. I mean.. it's been in China for over a 1000 years and it works for the people there.

If Chinese medicines work as well as you say it does, why are there very very few lab tests showing the veracity and effectiveness? OTOH, no western medicines are allowed to be prescribed to the public without extensive testing to show that it will work.


see other guys quote, Western medicine is not as 'clean slate' as you may believe.

If Western medicine works and can be prescribed to patients.. why are there constant lawsuits against Pfizer? Don't tell me the Western media and science has clouded your judgment. But hey, believe what you want to believe. Based on all the answers and posts you have, you only have a one track mind anyways.

I wouldn't recommend anything alternative. BTW there are only two types of medicines...those that work and those that don't. Alternative medicine is a euphenism for "People tell us it helps but we can't prove it".

if it does not work for you, then don't use it. Many people on this forum and the billions of people overseas have used it and it works. If you can't accept this fact.. too bad.

I suppose old Indian Shamans in your opinion are a joke as well.

BTW my family doctor (Western), uses BOTH TCM and Western medicine in his practice. Sometimes it's better to have the best of both worlds

[king_george]

fine that is your opinion. But you can't conclude that it is a 100% joke practice. I mean.. it's been in China for over a 1000 years and it works for the people there.

Then where is the proof? If it works for so many people, why doesn't someone do a clinical trial and bring it into the mainstream? It won't fail a trial will it?



see other guys quote, Western medicine is not as 'clean slate' as you may believe.

Absolutely. No system of medicine is perfect. But western medicine is closer to perfect IMO.

If Western medicine works and can be prescribed to patients.. why are there constant lawsuits against Pfizer? Don't tell me the Western media and science has clouded your judgment. But hey, believe what you want to believe. Based on all the answers and posts you have, you only have a one track mind anyways.

I'm open to all evidence. I don't accept anything on belief. My mind is one track based on evidence, not faith or belief. There is none or extremely little evidence for alternative medicine. Western science has uncovered more about the human physiology than TCM has done in a thousand years.
Like I said, no system is perfect and of course with any medicine there will be unknown side effects. No drug test can cover all the variables and unfortunately crap sometimes happen. However if the tests were fraudulent or improperly conducted, then the company deserves all it gets.
Please concentrate on the subject. Insults add nothing to your argument.

if it does not work for you, then don't use it. Many people on this forum and the billions of people overseas have used it and it works. If you can't accept this fact.. too bad.

I suppose old Indian Shamans in your opinion are a joke as well.

Nope a joke is funny. These dudes aren't. Shamanism is for the gullible and superstitious.
Plus you're right, I'll never use it and never recommend it. Where is the evidence it works other than this billions of anecdotes? Where are the clinical trials? Show me a documented case where TCM has cured brain cancer. By documnted I don't mean someone claims to have done it, but something that shows TCM is directly responsible for the cure. I'll save you some time -- you can't. It's never happened.

BTW my family doctor (Western), uses BOTH TCM and Western medicine in his practice. Sometimes it's better to have the best of both worlds

Good. Use anything that works, but don't depend on snake oil. You may regret it one day.

[king_george]

For example, here is one that shows Chinese medicine works.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=17036476&dopt=AbstractPlus

Clinical observation on therapeutic effect of electroacupuncture at Sanyinjiao (SP 6) on peri-menopausal syndrome


Wrong. It shows one facet of TCM will probably work for a non-life threatening condition. I say might work simply because this is only one trial. When the trial is reproduced and shows the same effects then yes I can say this works. One complaint I have against this trial is the absence of placebo. Almost all drug and treatment trials use it. Plus it can say safe because acupuncture is safe in most situations. I'd be more impressed if they concentrated on the effectiveness. Otherwise, it looks like a good trial.

I've been involved in testing and I can tell you that nothing is accepted as fact until there have been many trials under all kinds of conditions using as many different types of people as possible.

It's expensive, time-consuming and usually gives a good overall picture of the veracity and side-effects of a medicine. Are you aware that it takes up to ten years of testing before it's allowed to be sold? Most of the time this will show any shortcomings, but not always as evidenced by the lawsuits against Pfizer and others. Thousands of compounds get rejected every year for each compound that shows promise.

But anyways, I'm sure that there are lots of studies showing some facets of TCM work or appear to work. You cannot say "TCM works" on the basis of a single pubmed article.



Although this is from wiki, it still shows that Thalidomide is a joke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide

only starting from 1962, "they would have to show their new drugs were safe and effective."
Yep thalidomide was a great criminal tragedy that happened 45 years ago. How is that relevant today?
Shall we possibly throw out all the good because of one criminal tragedy? Should we not use western medicine because of this one incident? I don't think so.

[getmail99]

Wrong. It shows one facet of TCM will probably work for a non-life threatening condition. I say might work simply because this is only one trial. When the trial is reproduced and shows the same effects then yes I can say this works. One complaint I have against this trial is the absence of placebo. Almost all drug and treatment trials use it. Plus it can say safe because acupuncture is safe in most situations. I'd be more impressed if they concentrated on the effectiveness. Otherwise, it looks like a good trial.

I've been involved in testing and I can tell you that nothing is accepted as fact until there have been many trials under all kinds of conditions using as many different types of people as possible.

It's expensive, time-consuming and usually gives a good overall picture of the veracity and side-effects of a medicine. Are you aware that it takes up to ten years of testing before it's allowed to be sold? Most of the time this will show any shortcomings, but not always as evidenced by the lawsuits against Pfizer and others. Thousands of compounds get rejected every year for each compound that shows promise.

But anyways, I'm sure that there are lots of studies showing some facets of TCM work or appear to work. You cannot say "TCM works" on the basis of a single pubmed article.

Yep thalidomide was a great criminal tragedy that happened 45 years ago. How is that relevant today?
Shall we possibly throw out all the good because of one criminal tragedy? Should we not use western medicine because of this one incident? I don't think so.

I am just showing some examples about TCM and western medicine. I did not bother to find some better examples. Believe it or not is up to you.

At least I fixed this problem by myself using TCM.

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480239

Of course you can say that the poster does not have the same problem.

---

I googled and found this one.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12045840&dopt=AbstractPlus

and this

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17378197&ordinalpos=14&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

This one with pseudo acupuncture and real acupuncture at Sanyinjiao (SP 6) but only six subjects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16491761&ordinalpos=27&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Just some examples.

[king_george]

I am just showing some examples about TCM and western medicine. I did not bother to find some better examples. Believe it or not is up to you.

At least I fixed this problem by myself using TCM.

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=480239

Of course you can say that the poster does not have the same problem.

---

I googled and found this one.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12045840&dopt=AbstractPlus

and this

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17378197&ordinalpos=14&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

This one with pseudo acupuncture and real acupuncture at Sanyinjiao (SP 6) but only six subjects.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=16491761&ordinalpos=27&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Just some examples.

Good examples too BTW. Again my only problem is that they are very basic types of research and do not use a subject pool big enough to get really good statistical results. Also again, no placebo was used and no description of the types of people used for trial is shown. The control group and the test group should contain equal proportionate types of people, otherwise the results get skewed, sometimes badly.

If something looks promising, then researchers need to use tried and true methods of medical research and statistical analysis. These one-off trials really don't prove anything, just provide indicators.

As for your problem, well I'm glad it got cleared up for whatever reason. I know some problems can be very difficult to live with and a cure for any reason is welcome to the sufferer. But your story is still an unprovable anecdote, something that alternative medicine is rife with. I've had tinnitus for 10 years now and nothing, western, TCM, naturpathy or voodoo hasn't helped one iota. At least the western doctors tried their best, failed and told me I have to live with it while the alternative medicine types wanted me to keep trying their medications for as long as my credit card is under the limit. :D I've learned to live with it.

Tinnitus for me is like having an ambulance siren going off beside your head 24/7/365. It never gets quiet and never, ever subsides. Sometimes the ambulance has a chain saw going too. :lol: I hear tires screeching a lot of nights while dropping off to sleep also. Interesting, but a pain the the butt.

WTF is pseudo-acupuncture? :lol: Did they pretend to insert needles?

ETA: Thanks for keeping it civil too BTW. Too many types who believe in alternative medicine get really really emotional and sometimes horribly insulting when someone like me challenges their beliefs. It's been a pleasure.

[Madchester]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowpox

Just because people don't understand the mechanism of how a treatment works... doesn't mean it's necessarily ineffective. This applies to all forms of medicine. In this example, the farmer just noticed that something worked by observation... but not why it did.

[masterhapposai]

You guys really have to read up.

Some examples:
-Ginseng, Astragalus, and "chi"/"yang" tonics made out of those items will raise your blood pressure and assist your adrenals (cortisol)

that's science, not shamanism. however, it's also very dangerous

you can kill yourself taking licorice

Anyone think it's hocus pocus, you decide if you want to try to mess around with this stuff. In the end western medicine can be more safe.

But, if you read up enough you can take in herbs when you can't find a suitable bioidentical pill in western medicine or something that doesn't have a lot of side effects.

[gordholio]

Medicine is a hard thing to measure in the sense of whether or not it is working.
Some voodoo witch doctor can make a preparation made out of spiders, etc. and if the patient believes it will work, then it just might.
Same with Western medicine or Chinese (or other) herbs. With Western drugs, you tend to have a lot of negative side effects; I don't know about how that works with Chinese herbs.

I'm not saying saying that I fall for everything, but I like the philosophy of the Chinese at least - treating the whole body as an interconnected system, rather than the Western philosophy of isolating only one problem in the body and working on that, without getting to the root of the problem.

Some of these Chinese herbs have been used for thousands of years with positive results, so that should be taken into account as well.
Big pharma is big business, so of course they're going to dismiss anything that would take away money from them (when people used Chinese or other herbs).
In any case, you are the one that makes the decision.

One thing that I think is a scam is "Bach Flower Remedies".

[king_george]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowpox

Just because people don't understand the mechanism of how a treatment works... doesn't mean it's necessarily ineffective. This applies to all forms of medicine. In this example, the farmer just noticed that something worked by observation... but not why it did.
My point is that if it is observed to have an effect or work, then it can be studied, understood, tested and possibly made more efficient. Alternative medicine usually doesn't do that.

Case in point is Aspirin. Acetylsalicylic acid occurs naturally in willow bark and yes that does work. Would you rather boil tree bark and take an impure drug of unknown strength or take a little pill that is known to be pure and effective? Assuming you had to take one of course.

[king_george]

Big pharma is big business, so of course they're going to dismiss anything that would take away money from them (when people used Chinese or other herbs).
In any case, you are the one that makes the decision.

One thing that I think is a scam is "Bach Flower Remedies".
Gord, I can tell you from experience that if a medicine works and appears to be profitable, the drug companies would be all over it. They would never in a million years turn down a chance at a big profit. The big difference is that unlike TCM and naturopaths, big pharma must operate by gov't rules. That means extensive testing and clinical trials. Alternative medicine uses anecdotes to show their products work. Read some naturopath labels and you'll see phrases like "might help this" or "might relieve that". Big pharma is not allowed to do that.
Still if someone believes, then they have every right to disregard whatever medicines they want. I happen to believe in evidence-based medicine.

Selling medicine that might not work is the job of the small independent natural cures type stores.


Bach Flowers (http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/remedies.htm) ....oh my what a complete loon:mad:

[gordholio]

Gord, I can tell you from experience that if a medicine works and appears to be profitable, the drug companies would be all over it. They would never in a million years turn down a chance at a big profit. The big difference is that unlike TCM and naturopaths, big pharma must operate by gov't rules. That means extensive testing and clinical trials. Alternative medicine uses anecdotes to show their products work. Read some naturopath labels and you'll see phrases like "might help this" or "might relieve that". Big pharma is not allowed to do that.
Still if someone believes, then they have every right to disregard whatever medicines they want. I happen to believe in evidence-based medicine.

Selling medicine that might not work is the job of the small independent natural cures type stores.


Bach Flowers (http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/remedies.htm) ....oh my what a complete loon:mad:

I'm not saying one or the other is better, but some Chinese (or other) herbs have been used for thousands of years with good results. To just dismiss this because it hasn't been put through an "official" testing is foolish IMHO.

What about all the mothers giving their children cod liver oil 40 or more years ago? There was no knowledge of Omega this or that, yet people knew it was good for you - through experience. Nowadays, people think that this is some new phenomenon - fish oil, but it's been around for decades even without any studies.

Yes, Bach Flower remedies is complete quackery.

Also, Stevia has been used in Asian (and other) regions for hundreds and hundreds of years with good results - for sweetening with no calories (natural). "Stevia is not recognized by the FDA as a sweetener, but it is allowed to be sold as a dietary supplement. Once you have purchased it as a dietary supplement, however, you are free to use it as a sweetener [at least they can't stop you from doing that]. Stevia cannot be marketed as an alternative to any other sweeteners, or even be marketed as “sweet”." (Gee, I wonder why it can't be marketed as a sweetener?)
Stevia has been used in Japan for years and in their diet soft drinks for years.
I've used it too.

" The Japanese have been using stevia to sweeten products since the 1970s, and plant extracts are now found in candy, ice cream, pickles, soft drinks, teas, and other foods. The herb also had great potential for use in this country a decade ago. Major food companies such as Thomas J. Lipton and Celestial Seasonings were developing products containing stevia. Those efforts screeched to a halt when the FDA temporarily banned the importation of stevia products in 1991.

In Canada, where stevia can be sold as an ingredient in tea but not as a sweetener, the government agency Agriculture Canada is researching stevia as a potential crop. Canadian and U.S. companies marketing stevia are finding a fast-growing Asian market for the extracts.

Stevia is also purported to do more than sweeten foods. It's touted as helping to fight tooth decay and gum disease by inhibiting bacterial growth. It has been investigated as a blood sugar regulator for people with diabetes and hypoglycemia. Because stevia contains virtually no calories, it could have potential for use in weight-loss diets. However, none of these uses has been approved in the U.S., and controversy surrounds them as well as stevia's potential role as a sugar substitute."

[masterhapposai]

My point is that if it is observed to have an effect or work, then it can be studied, understood, tested and possibly made more efficient. Alternative medicine usually doesn't do that.

Case in point is Aspirin. Acetylsalicylic acid occurs naturally in willow bark and yes that does work. Would you rather boil tree bark and take an impure drug of unknown strength or take a little pill that is known to be pure and effective? Assuming you had to take one of course.

as you pointed out, that acid occurs in the bark

That's why we all have to read up. Anyone with a disease going to a Doctor and taking whatever is given to them is plain crazy to me. The bark can kill you if not measured right, and aspirin can tear a hole in your stomach in general.

If one reads, then both paths are fine. I think the real argument is, Western Science and Medicine doesn't know all the uses of these barks, plants, etc..

With non-western remedies you are taking a risk listening to some man who was told by a man, where "broken telephone" may have occured causing you pain or the medicine to ultimately do nothing. Western Medicine of course puts an end to the "broken telephone" and watering down/random effectiveness of herbal/alternative care, but what's the better choice in the end if you're told to take antibiotics which can cause permanent damage?

Sometimes the choice is a crapshoot, sometimes it's clearly western medicine being the only effective treatment.

[king_george]

I'm not saying one or the other is better, but some Chinese (or other) herbs have been used for thousands of years with good results. To just dismiss this because it hasn't been put through an "official" testing is foolish IMHO.

Sorry I have to disagree. I choose to dismiss things that have never been tested or not tested properly. My opinion only remember. You're comitting a logical fallcy there Gord. Just because people have used it for thousands of years proves nothing. Without studying it further to see what the effect is and how it works, well to me that is simply not good practice and keeps the supposed cure in the alternative medicine category. If it works, it should be proven, studied and put into mainstream medicine.

What about all the mothers giving their children cod liver oil 40 or more years ago? There was no knowledge of Omega this or that, yet people knew it was good for you - through experience. Nowadays, people think that this is some new phenomenon - fish oil, but it's been around for decades even without any studies.

Exactly my point. Some good things were observed, it was studied, the mechanism and process was figured out and studied, then more knowledge was added to the medical world. That is the way it should work! Why isn't alternative medicine forced to do the same?

Yes, Bach Flower remedies is complete quackery.

To say the least!!

Also, Stevia has been used in Asian (and other) regions for hundreds and hundreds of years with good results - for sweetening with no calories (natural). "Stevia is not recognized by the FDA as a sweetener, but it is allowed to be sold as a dietary supplement. Once you have purchased it as a dietary supplement, however, you are free to use it as a sweetener [at least they can't stop you from that]. Stevia cannot be marketed as an alternative to any other sweeteners, or even be marketed as “sweet”." (Gee, I wonder why it can't be marketed as a sweetener?)
Stevia has been used in Japan for years and in their diet soft drinks for years.
Never heard of it but I will look it up. Any idea what Canada's stance on it is?

[king_george]

as you pointed out, that acid occurs in the bark

That's why we all have to read up. Anyone with a disease going to a Doctor and taking whatever is given to them is plain crazy to me. The bark can kill you if not measured right, and aspirin can tear a hole in your stomach in general.

If one reads, then both paths are fine. I think the real argument is, Western Science and Medicine doesn't know all the uses of these barks, plants, etc..

With non-western remedies you are taking a risk listening to some man who was told by a man, where "broken telephone" may have occured causing you pain or the medicine to ultimately do nothing. Western Medicine of course puts an end to the "broken telephone" and watering down/random effectiveness of herbal/alternative care, but what's the better choice in the end if you're told to take antibiotics which can cause permanent damage?

Sometimes the choice is a crapshoot, sometimes it's clearly western medicine being the only effective treatment.
Don't forget the other choice:
Sometimes there is no choice. Death or debilitation for sure without the drug or possible death or debilitation with the drug.

That's the type of choice where you need all the info possible. That's where you find out just how good your doctor is...

[gordholio]

king george...some info from Wikipedia on stevia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevia

[getmail99]

Good examples too BTW. Again my only problem is that they are very basic types of research and do not use a subject pool big enough to get really good statistical results. Also again, no placebo was used and no description of the types of people used for trial is shown. The control group and the test group should contain equal proportionate types of people, otherwise the results get skewed, sometimes badly.

If something looks promising, then researchers need to use tried and true methods of medical research and statistical analysis. These one-off trials really don't prove anything, just provide indicators.

As for your problem, well I'm glad it got cleared up for whatever reason. I know some problems can be very difficult to live with and a cure for any reason is welcome to the sufferer. But your story is still an unprovable anecdote, something that alternative medicine is rife with. I've had tinnitus for 10 years now and nothing, western, TCM, naturpathy or voodoo hasn't helped one iota. At least the western doctors tried their best, failed and told me I have to live with it while the alternative medicine types wanted me to keep trying their medications for as long as my credit card is under the limit. :D I've learned to live with it.

Tinnitus for me is like having an ambulance siren going off beside your head 24/7/365. It never gets quiet and never, ever subsides. Sometimes the ambulance has a chain saw going too. :lol: I hear tires screeching a lot of nights while dropping off to sleep also. Interesting, but a pain the the butt.

WTF is pseudo-acupuncture? :lol: Did they pretend to insert needles?

ETA: Thanks for keeping it civil too BTW. Too many types who believe in alternative medicine get really really emotional and sometimes horribly insulting when someone like me challenges their beliefs. It's been a pleasure.

There may be some better examples out there. For example, this one is done by Japan western medicine university, Tokyo Medical and Dental University.

Effects of acupressure on lower limb blood flow for the treatment of peripheral arterial occlusive diseases.
Li X, Hirokawa M, Inoue Y, Sugano N, Qian S, Iwai T.

Division of Vascular Surgery, Department of Surgery, Tokyo Medical and Dental University, 1-5-45 Yushima, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo, 113-8519, Japan.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17243026&ordinalpos=21&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

For the tinnitus, you can try the method as I suggested in the other thread. Of course, if you do it yourself, it is free of charge. :cheesygri

For life threatening condition, I guess stroke is life threatening. My mother-in-law had a stroke and half of the body cannot move. My sister-in-law performed a TCM 'release blood' method at certain locations and my mother-in-law started to move before the ambulance came.

Should I post the 'blood release' locations here? This is life saving but is not proven. I don't know if you would try it. :cheesygri

[getmail99]

king george...some info from Wikipedia on stevia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stevia

Conspiracy theory suggests that FDA did not allow stevia to compete with artificial sweetener :cheesygri .

[king_george]

There may be some better examples out there. For example, this one is done by Japan western medicine university, Tokyo Medical and Dental University.

Effects of acupressure on lower limb blood flow for the treatment of peripheral arterial occlusive diseases.
Li X, Hirokawa M, Inoue Y, Sugano N, Qian S, Iwai T.

Division of Vascular Surgery, Department of Surgery, Tokyo Medical and Dental University, 1-5-45 Yushima, Bunkyo-ku, Tokyo, 113-8519, Japan.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=17243026&ordinalpos=21&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

For the tinnitus, you can try the method as I suggested in the other thread. Of course, if you do it yourself, it is free of charge. :cheesygri

For life threatening condition, I guess stroke is life threatening. My mother-in-law had a stroke and half of the body cannot move. My sister-in-law performed a TCM 'release blood' method at certain locations and my mother-in-law started to move before the ambulance came.

Should I post the 'blood release' locations here? This is life saving but is not proven. I don't know if you would try it. :cheesygri


Nah too late now..I'm off to bed.

The tinnitus is permanent caused by trauma. Nothing as of today can help it at all.

In an emergency situation like that where the treatment won't hurt the patient, then fine go ahead. I'd object if that was all that was done and no ambulance was called.

My father had a stroke and actually was paralyzed for a few minutes. He got up and walked to the ambulance. He couldn't bear to let the neighbors see him being carried out..:| He recovered fully eventually and had to use a massage therapist for months (Not that he minded her of course).

As an aside, my father-in-law is 82 and had terrible indigestion problems causing him to take antacids 3 times a day. He wanted to lose weight and someone told him to take a mixture of apple juice and vinegar. He never lost weight, but the stomach acid problem disappeared. :lol: After a quick endoscopy, it was discovered that he had accidentally altered the ph level of his stomach acid to a more tolerable level (for him). His stomach lining of course isn't what it used to be. They had tried before to do this and were unsuccessful using juice concentrates and especially lemon juice. He got very lucky with his home-made brew. :D The downside is that he can't digest food as efficiently, but he will take that instead of the acid indigestion.
Now that's an anecdote, but I thought it was kinda funny.

[woodstock827]

BTW, why do people think Chinese medicine "cure" diseases?
Unlike western medicine more focusing on "fighting" diseases, Chinese medication is more on "balancing" your body. It's more like when you are sick, it's because something goes off balance inside your body. Chinese medicine would put back your body to "balance" state. Well I'm no professional on Chinese medicine and that's all I can explain...

Western medicine fight diseases? hardly. All it does is fight symptoms. Antibiotics may "fight" diseases but your body can do a much better job, and that's what Chinese medicine helps your body to do.

Not saying it works 100% for everyone, but don't dismiss just because it didn't work on you. Tylenol doesn't relief my pain, and coffee makes me sleepy, but they don't work on me doesn't mean they don't work for everyone else.

Some illness are better treated by western methods and others could be better with Chinese medicines, and some could even be combined. I thought it's quite generally accepted in the medical field that Chinese medicines do work and many universities are doing studies to try to explain it... It's gonna be difficult since there are so many different herbs, endless combinations, and even more chemicals in each herb combining into different chemicals.

[king_george]

Western medicine fight diseases? hardly. All it does is fight symptoms. Antibiotics may "fight" diseases but your body can do a much better job, and that's what Chinese medicine helps your body to do.

Sure for non-threaening conditions or problems. If you got a staph infection I'll wager you woulnd't call the nearest TCM practitioner. Antibiotics will most likely kill the bacteria. TCM won't work fast enough.
And yes, western medicines fight disease. TB, measles, rubella, smallpox as a small example. Can you demonstrate how TCM would treat TB?

Not saying it works 100% for everyone, but don't dismiss just because it didn't work on you. Tylenol doesn't relief my pain, and coffee makes me sleepy, but they don't work on me doesn't mean they don't work for everyone else.

Don't know about you, but I'd rather take medicine with a proven track record rather than gambling on a unproven treatment. But hey that's just me.

Some illness are better treated by western methods and others could be better with Chinese medicines, and some could even be combined. I thought it's quite generally accepted in the medical field that Chinese medicines do work and many universities are doing studies to try to explain it... It's gonna be difficult since there are so many different herbs, endless combinations, and even more chemicals in each herb combining into different chemicals.
Try next to impossible since with herbs and things there is no standard compound or dose or purity.
Any herb can cause a physiological reaction because it's adding a foreign chemical to the body. The big question is do they work as expected? That's what's being studied.
Until then I'll avoid any medicine that says "May Help..." on the label.

[woodstock827]

as I said before.. I agree that some things are better left for western medicals. Like if I have cancer, I'd definitely go with Western methods, and use Chinese as a supplement. But if I have allergy or asthma, even a common cold, Western medications aren't really much use other than controlling the symptoms, in which case Chinese medicines would make sense.

As for proven track record, I'm sure 1.3 billion people with over a thousand years of history is a pretty good prove, as opposed to clinical trial with a few dozen people in a few months.

also, FYI, all medicines, Chinese or Western, have "may help" on the label. I have yet to see any medications that guarantees cure/recovery.

[getmail99]

Sure for non-threaening conditions or problems. If you got a staph infection I'll wager you woulnd't call the nearest TCM practitioner. Antibiotics will most likely kill the bacteria. TCM won't work fast enough.


Who tell you TCM won't work faster enough? Many TCM have anti-bacteria or antiviral. Actually I may use TCM in this case. Qing Re Jie Du :cheesygri. The antibiotics may not work. "However, over 60 years of application of antibiotics leads to the development of antibiotic resistance of many bacterial pathogens"

Hey, this is from UCLA :cheesygri
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1169149


Inhibition of Growth of Streptococcus mutans, Methicillin-Resistant Staphylococcus aureus, and Vancomycin-Resistant Enterococci by Kurarinone, a Bioactive Flavonoid Isolated from Sophora flavescens

Li Chen,† Xiaofang Cheng, and Wenyuan Shi*
School of Dentistry and Dental Research Institute
Qingyi Lu, Vay Liang Go, and David Heber
UCLA Center for Human Nutrition
University of California
Los Angeles, CA 90095
Lili Ma
Department of Dermatology
Zhejiang Hospital of Chinese Medicine
Hangzhou, 310006, People's Republic of China

Infectious diseases caused by pathogenic bacteria have been the leading cause of morbidity and mortality in human history. The discovery of the antibacterial compound from the mold Penicillium notatum by Alexander Fleming led to the development of antibiotics, which are still the main weapons for combating the deadly bacterial infections at the present time. However, over 60 years of application of antibiotics leads to the development of antibiotic resistance of many bacterial pathogens. Consequently, bacterial infections have again become the most common and deadly causes of human diseases. Two of the most lethal hospital infections are caused by methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA) and vancomycin-resistant enterococci (VRE) (10). Furthermore, Streptococcus mutans-associated tooth decay is one of the most prevalent and costly infectious diseases in the United States (4, 11; http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/oralhealth/).

The emergence of both “new pathogens” and resistant strains from “old pathogens” demands new antibacterial compounds to deal with this crisis. Given the fact that most commonly used antibiotics are isolated from microorganisms, it is important to search for new antibacterial compounds from new bio-resources. Chinese medicinal herbs are logical choices due to their proven ability to treat microbial infections. In traditional Chinese medicine (TCM) practice, a group of herbs has been widely used for a specific therapeutic application defined as Qing Re Jie Du (http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1169149&blobname=zjm007055558gra1.jpg), or “alleviating heat and relieving the symptoms caused by toxins” (2, 3). Many herbs in this category have been found to have antimicrobial activities (2, 3). Recently, we conducted a systematic screen of herbs with Qing Re Jie Du function for the inhibitory activities against S. mutans, the primary etiological agent for dental caries and other pathogens (1), and found that the extract made from Sophora flavescens contains a potent bioactivity against S. mutans, MRSA, and VRE.

.........

In this study, a strong antibacterial activity of kurarinone was detected. Its MICs against S. mutans and multidrug-resistant strains (MRSA and VRE) are at the same level (2 μg/ml) (Table 1). Time- and dose-dependent bactericidal effects of kurarinone against S. mutans (Fig. 3B), MRSA, and VRE (data not shown) were also detected. These data suggested a potential application of kurarinone for the treatment of diseases or conditions associated with S. mutans, MRSA, and VRE.


Another article in Chinese
http://scholar.ilib.cn/Abstract.aspx?A=znmzxyxb-zrkx200504010


Don't know about you, but I'd rather take medicine with a proven track record rather than gambling on a unproven treatment. But hey that's just me.


I would use methods or model that can identify the illness and heal them, for example, Kidney Yin Deficiency, http://altmedicine.about.com/od/tcmpatterns/a/kidney_yin.htm
For this illness, conventional western medicine cannot even identify the illness. Yes, live with it for the rest of your life.


Try next to impossible since with herbs and things there is no standard compound or dose or purity.
Any herb can cause a physiological reaction because it's adding a foreign chemical to the body. The big question is do they work as expected? That's what's being studied.
Until then I'll avoid any medicine that says "May Help..." on the label.

If a patient has Kidney Yin Deficiency, just ask him/her to live with it, problem solved. Although a cure already exists and cannot be explained by the conventional western medicine model.

[king_george]

as I said before.. I agree that some things are better left for western medicals. Like if I have cancer, I'd definitely go with Western methods, and use Chinese as a supplement. But if I have allergy or asthma, even a common cold, Western medications aren't really much use other than controlling the symptoms, in which case Chinese medicines would make sense.

OK then. You really do have no idea how modern medicines work.

As for proven track record, I'm sure 1.3 billion people with over a thousand years of history is a pretty good prove, as opposed to clinical trial with a few dozen people in a few months.

Yikes, you have no idea how much money and time is put into testing. One test I was slightly involved in took 5 years, about 3 million USD and nearly 20,000 patients before it was certified for use. That was for an alternative to Codeine for pain control. You are simplying from lack of knowledge.
1.3 billion anecdotes is all they have. Anecdotes are not proof. If it's that effective, why not use clinical trials and show the world that it does work?

also, FYI, all medicines, Chinese or Western, have "may help" on the label. I have yet to see any medications that guarantees cure/recovery.

My pill bottle right here that I used for a bronchial infection says no such thing. It doesn't guarantee anything, but it sure details what will happen in the little booklet that came with it along with any possible side effects. There are no guarantees in life except death.

BTW these little antibiotic pills cleared everything up in 3 days. I highly doubt that TCM would fix it that fast or effectively. I am however willing to be proven wrong, it's just that I won't be the tester. :D

[king_george]

If a patient has Kidney Yin Deficiency, just ask him/her to live with it, problem solved. Although a cure already exists and cannot be explained by the conventional western medicine model.
GetMail, I have no doubt that if there is a cure for something, enough study will take that cure and make it better. You seem to be implying that nobody can explain this phenomena. Heck it may even be placebo effect without proper testing.
I'm saying that nobody has studied it enough obviously. All physical healing methods that use any type of chemical can be studied and defined. Remember herbs do have chemicals in them that may or may not affect the body in the prescribed way.
If it's so effective, all I ask is proof through trials. The problem is alt-med rarely use trials.
I took a look at an alt-med page and this deficiency is quite vague in regards to the symptoms. I'd be more comfortable with a definite diagnosis if I had anything like that.

Plus what the heck ya doing putting links in Chinese for this mono-language all Canadian white boy? :D

OOps just noticed this: When has nocturnal emissions ever been a problem? Hasn't just about every guy on earth had that happen at one time or another???:)

[getmail99]

Heck it may even be placebo effect without proper testing.

Placebo effect for a thousand year. .... This means it is working. :cheesygri


Plus what the heck ya doing putting links in Chinese for this mono-language all Canadian white boy? :D


Just googled and also came across this link shows that some research on Extracts from Rheum Officinal have been done.

[wetnose]

Elisa, I've personally gone to the school of traditional chinese medicine at 2040 Eglinton West. You're treated by senior students and they will advise you accordingly what you need.

I was feeling really fatigued and went there for 2 acupuncture treatments...felt great after 2 days. Definite improvement and I can recommend to anybody.

Might just be a placebo effect, but hey, if it works it works.

[getmail99]

Yes, if it works, who care about if it is placebo effect or not :cheesygri .

Acupuncture works for back pain: study

1,162 subjects were used in the study.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070924/acupuncture_study_070924/20070925/


Acupuncture works for back pain: study

Updated Tue. Sep. 25 2007 12:07 PM ET

CTV.ca News Staff

Acupuncture -- whether real or fake -- is more effective at relieving lower back pain than conventional methods, German researchers report in the Archives of Internal Medicine.

Their study found that almost half the patients treated with acupuncture felt relief after six months of treatment. And it mattered little whether the treatment was genuine and based on traditional Chinese medicine or not.

Dr. Michael Haake of the University of Regensburg in Germany looked at 1,162 patients who had experienced chronic low back pain for an average of eight years. They ruled out people with back pain caused by spinal fractures, tumours, scoliosis or pregnancy.

On third of the patients underwent twice a week 30-minute sessions of real acupuncture; another third received fake acupuncture; and the final third received conventional therapy.

The real acupuncture was based on Chinese medicine that targets traditional acupuncture points or meridians. In the fake acupuncture, the needles were not placed as deeply as the real thing and avoided meridian points. Those getting conventional therapy were prescribed a combination of medication, physical therapy and exercise.

After six months, patients were asked about their pain and functional ability. In the real acupuncture group, 47.6 per cent of patients said their condition improved. In the sham acupuncture group, 44.2 per cent did. In the conventional care group, 27.4 per cent described experiencing relief.

Those reporting relief from the acupuncture said the effects lasted long after they completed their treatment.

The study authors say their findings suggest an underlying mechanism inherent in acupuncture that may help to block pain signals or the processing of those signals.

It's also possible that the placebo effect could explain the findings, they note.

Whatever the reason, they say their study strongly suggests that acupuncture works.

"Acupuncture gives physicians a promising and effective treatment option for chronic low back pain, with few adverse effects or contraindications," the authors conclude.