Contractor quit, how to get money back

[PurpleTiger]

So here is my situation. Based on our neighbour recommending this contractor for the addition they had put on their house, at the beginning of July we hire a contractor to renovate our basement bathroom and main bathroom. We agree on the price for both ($10,000), and sign a contract with specifics on what needs to be done, and a payment schedule based on completed work.
I paid him $1500 after signing the contract, and $1000 on the day he started the work. After about 1 week, we asked him if he could also do some additional finishing of our basement: frame a partition wall in the main room of the basement, and drywall the two rooms plus two doors for an additional $1500. This additional work did not include any electrical work, simply a framed 10'X8' wall with a door opening. He agreed to do this work, and we just verbally agreed on it, did not amend the original contract. I pay him another $1000 once he started on that. It took him about 2 hours to build the wall. When I saw the wall I was quite surprised at the crap job it was. He obviously measured the studs wrong, as most of them ended up 1-2 inches short at the top, so there were just the nails in the gaps. The studs were very loose. I pointed this out, and he got upset, and said the drywall would cover this up. :| After arguing some more, eventually agreed to put some metal plates to reinforce them. That was as far as that part progressed.

Over the next 3 weeks, work progresses extremely slowly on the basement bathroom. He shows up every 2-3 days, and does maybe 1-2 hours work each time. He and another guy demo'd the existing bathroom, and also had to put in a rough opening for an additional door through cinderblock (took about 8 hours for that). He had to get a plumber in to put in a new drain for the bathtub, and cap the supply lines. He also got in a duct guy to re-route some ceiling vents (about 4 hours).

He starts framing the new bathroom wall (expanding the existing bathroom), and the walls are very crooked. Over a 2 foot section of wall, it is out by 1 inch. The other wall section (about 4 feet) is not level at all. He had already nailed these walls into the concrete floor, and to the existing outside wall studs before we noticed.

So the next morning when he shows up, my wife points out that the walls aren't straight at all, and he gets angry and defensive. He tries to show her that it is straight (while measuring, he was very obviously putting the tape measure crooked). After some back and forth, he said he is done and walks out. I phone him and he said that he doesn't want to do anymore work and blames everything on my wife.

Over the next few days I phone him everyday to agree on the amount he owes us, since at this point we had already paid him $3500, and the work completed was not worth that much IMO.

Eventually (about 1 week later) we agree that for the demolition of the existing bathroom, putting in an opening for a new door, the plumbing and duct work, taking the garbage away, and framing the walls is worth $1500. He also had ordered 30 sheets of drywall, plaster and take, which were delivered. We agreed this was worth $500. So $2000 total, and he owed $1500.

Over the next two weeks I try to get him to tell me when he will pay me. Every excuse comes out, and still no money. Today I spoke with him, and he said he changed his mind. He doesn't owe me $1500. He needs to check his bills again, and will call me back in 30 mins. Of course no call, and he hasn't returned my voicemails yet.

So what are my options...I can sue him in small claims court. I would have paid him $2000, but now I'm thinking the work he did was so shoddy that I don't want to pay him for anything except the plumbing, duct, and the hole in the wall and materials.

Plumbing 4 hrs @ $60?
Duct 4 hrs @ $60?
demolition 8 hours @ $15?

Do these rates seem reasonable? How do I go about getting everything ready for court - get estimates of the work completed, or estimates for getting the bathroom renovated from here on. Get pictures of all work.


Any other ideas??? I won't mention the company name yet, and I do have pictures of the work.

[Bytown]

It would be along hard battle to sue him.

[enko]

Small claims, put on your reading glasses, lots to read up on, Consumer Protection Act.

Sue him for everything you paid, plus the work that a 2nd contractor will do to get your basement back proper.

Not only has he failed to complete the work, he's left your basement in worse shape. You've lost faith in his capacity as a contractor.

You're under no obligation to allow him to fix what he's messed up. You hired him to perform a job, he was incapable. Get an expert opinion (3rd party to this) who will back you up. This expert cannot be the contractor you hire in the future I believe.

[enko]

It would be along hard battle to sue him.

It would be long (around 8 months) but it's a walk in the park.

60% chance when you file against him, he coughs up the money.

Otherwise he'd have to file a defense, and HE'D have to hire a 3rd party expert to go inspect your house to prove the work he did was fine. I'm assuming OP is competent and accurate in saying the walls weren't straight and the framing was ****** and too short.

[butter]

Check with your city/town that he didn't put a lean on your house.

and

Make sure he doesn't inform the city/town that you didn't have a permit (cuz you didn't mention that you had one)

[Drthorne]

was a permit required for any work? I think the only permit needed would be for cutting the cinder block wall if it was a structural support

[Firebot]

Take a lot of pictures. Get an estimate from a 3rd party for how much it would cost to repair the shoddy work that was done, and have the cost deducted from the 2000$ you agreed you owed him. If you can convince the judge that the work he performed was subpar to the point of being unprofessional, you will have a much easier case to get most of your money back.

[mlc2000]

And if you win in small claims court, you still have to chase him for the money.

The court doesn't enforce collection.

[Bytown]

Take a lot of pictures. Get an estimate from a 3rd party for how much it would cost to repair the shoddy work that was done, and have the cost deducted from the 2000$ you agreed you owed him. If you can convince the judge that the work he performed was subpar to the point of being unprofessional, you will have a much easier case to get most of your money back.

He would have a easer time of winning not getting the money.Even if you win that does not mean you will get the money that day.

[Drthorne]

wonder if he did a crap job on your neighbours house too? they probably didn't monitor his work like you did. post the company name and see if gets some action

[butter]

was a permit required for any work? I think the only permit needed would be for cutting the cinder block wall if it was a structural support

City of Toronto permit information can be found here: http://www.toronto.ca/building/building_permits.htm

You need a building permit if you plan to:

* construct a new building
* renovate, repair or add to a building
* demolish or remove all or a portion of a building
* change a building's use
* install, change or remove partitions and load-bearing walls
* make new openings for, or change the size of, doors and windows
* build a garage, balcony or deck
* excavate a basement or construct a foundation
* install or modify heating, plumbing, air conditioning systems or fireplaces
* reconstruct a chimney.

You do not need a building permit to:

* replace existing, same-size doors and windows, subject to distance from property lines
* install siding on small residential buildings, subject to distance from property lines
* build a roofless deck under two feet (0.61 metres) that is not attached to a building
* build a utility shed under 100 ft2 (9.29 m2)
* reshingle a roof, provided there is no structural work
* install eavestroughs, provided that drainage is contained on your property
* replace or increase insulation, dry-wall or plaster
* damp-proof basements
* paint or decorate
* install kitchen or bathroom cupboards without plumbing
* erect a fence (except for swimming pools * outside pools require permits)
* electrical work (the Electrical Safety Authority, however, must inspect electrical installations)

[butter]

OP - I'd cut your losses and chalk it up to a lesson learned.

If you do get a new contractor, ask for references and then check those references. See some examples of their work if possible.

Also get multiple quotes from multiple contractors and get their references as well, etc.

Ask if permits are needed. If they say no, then they obviously are looking to cut corners. You need a permit if you're doing plumbing.

[Drthorne]

City of Toronto permit information can be found here: http://www.toronto.ca/building/building_permits.htm

He's in Mississauga

[hagbard]

This is why I tend to do all such work myself, with hired handimen. My brother-in-law got ripped off this way to the tune of almost $20k.

[butter]

He's in Mississauga

City of Mississauga permit information: http://www.mississauga.ca/portal/residents/permits

Residential Building Permit Guide - April 2007:
http://www.mississauga.ca/file/COM/Residential_Building_Permit_Guide_PDF.pdf

Page 4 indicates when a permit is required.

[PurpleTiger]

Check with your city/town that he didn't put a lean on your house.
Hmmm...not sure. How can he put a lean on my property. He walked out on the contract we had, and has more money from me than the work is worth. The contract didn't stipulate anymore payment until the basement bathroom was completed. It's only about 20% completed.


Make sure he doesn't inform the city/town that you didn't have a permit (cuz you didn't mention that you had one)
I think the breaking of the cinder block probably needed a permit. I didn't get one, and he didn't ask me about one. If he reports to the city, can I report him for doing the work?

[Pete_Coach]

OP - I'd cut your losses and chalk it up to a lesson learned.
.

Exactly. All the rest is water under the bridge. You will not get money.
The permit stuff is all moot as this needs to be done by the new contractor when you get one. If the contractor is willing to get permits and all prior to doing the work, chances are that he is legit.

[butter]

Hmmm...not sure. How can he put a lean on my property. He walked out on the contract we had, and has more money from me than the work is worth. The contract didn't stipulate anymore payment until the basement bathroom was completed. It's only about 20% completed.
It's your word vs. his. Did you pay cash or did you pay by cheque? Did he provide any receipts? Chances are this is very unlikely. He could say he finished the work and you tore it down afterwards, etc.. It doesn't hurt to check with the city.

I think the breaking of the cinder block probably needed a permit. I didn't get one, and he didn't ask me about one. If he reports to the city, can I report him for doing the work?
I believe the responsibility of the permit is with the homeowner. Essentially only the Owner can apply for a permit, or a person authorized in writing by the Owner.

[j27lee]

Plumbing 4 hrs @ $60?
Duct 4 hrs @ $60?
demolition 8 hours @ $15?

Do these rates seem reasonable?

demo at $15? Remember that you are hiring a person to do the job. He's billing time... doesn't matter what he's doing in that time, you're paying him for the time. I do computer contracts and whether I'm programming or doing support or blowing dust out of someone's computer, i still charge the same amount.

[PurpleTiger]

demo at $15? Remember that you are hiring a person to do the job. He's billing time... doesn't matter what he's doing in that time, you're paying him for the time. I do computer contracts and whether I'm programming or doing support or blowing dust out of someone's computer, i still charge the same amount.

Well for this demo job he hired some young guy to do it. I'm sure he was not paying him very much.

The problem seems to be that for the neighbours addition job ($100k), he was just the general contractor and didn't actually do any of the work. He had competent people working. I assumed that it would be the same for this job. $10k for two small bathrooms (6'x8') with nothing fancy (no tiling even, as we were going to do that ourselves) would mean he could hire professional subcontractors. Instead, he kept complaining that we weren't paying enough for the job.

I don't mind paying for good work. I would do the work myself, but am too busy. What I don't like is paying for crap work that needs to be redone. If this contract wasn't worth for him to do, he should not have agreed to do it. I think he got greedy and wanted to save money by doing most of the work himself. Maybe he thought we wouldn't notice.

[BuildingHomes]

Instead, he kept complaining that we weren't paying enough for the job.

I don't mind paying for good work. I would do the work myself, but am too busy. What I don't like is paying for crap work that needs to be redone. If this contract wasn't worth for him to do, he should not have agreed to do it. I think he got greedy and wanted to save money by doing most of the work himself. Maybe he thought we wouldn't notice.

If he gave you a price and both parties agreed to it, then he cannot complain about how much you were paying for the job. That just means he didn't quote properly and took a Wild Ass Guess.

I quote on jobs all the time. I work out how long it will take to complete each task, add up all the hours and multiply it by my hourly rate. Then add the materials and provide the total to the client. If he didn't even do that, then he's a moron and needs to learn how to quote his jobs properly so he doesn't A) get in this situation, or B) go out of business because he quotes too low

[nalababe]

you will not win in small claims court. You would have to prove maliciousness. If he was actually performing the work, despite not being up to your standards, the court will not side with you.

Seem to remember a holmes on homes, they had a police office and someone else in the judicial system pretty much say that in such cases you our out of luck.

Again chalk it up to a learning experience.

[hagbard]

If he gave you a price and both parties agreed to it, then he cannot complain about how much you were paying for the job. That just means he didn't quote properly and took a Wild Ass Guess.

I quote on jobs all the time. I work out how long it will take to complete each task, add up all the hours and multiply it by my hourly rate. Then add the materials and provide the total to the client. If he didn't even do that, then he's a moron and needs to learn how to quote his jobs properly so he doesn't A) get in this situation, or B) go out of business because he quotes too low

C) keep doing it. Seems like a pretty lucrative way to make money. And they almost always get away with it. Just look at all those contractors that work for Home Depot, they're not even worried about losing their reputation, and we already know the courts won't help.

[UncleSteve]

Seem to remember a holmes on homes, they had a police office and someone else in the judicial system pretty much say that in such cases you our out of luck.

If that's the same episode I'm thinking of, the contractor did a crap job and never completed it. The couple fired him. He then proceeded to place a lien on their house, and also reported them to the city for not having a permit, despite the fact that he told them none was needed.

[mself084]

I wouldn't bother with small claims - you pretty much lost your money. I'd keep calling him about the money, perhaps threaten legal action, see what comes from it. If nothing, make sure none of your friends hire him and be thankful you didn't lose the whole 10k.

For newbies to contracting, what SHOULD have the OP done? Lots of research, asked for references/pics, etc? What about the payment plan...is this standard?

[regrus]

My opinion of what the OP should have done is that the OP hired the contractor by contract to do a job. He did not hire him at an hourly rate. Now the OP is trying to break it down to a by the hour job.

You take your car to a autobody shop you leave it there and come and get it when it's done. Same thing here, the contractor did not contract with the OP for the OP to also be the job quality control inspector and to judge the quality of every nail installed.

The finished job would most likely have been fine if the OP had just waited for the final outcome. Never buy a new house if your worried about a wall being an inch out.

[Drthorne]

For newbies to contracting, what SHOULD have the OP done? Lots of research, asked for references/pics, etc? What about the payment plan...is this standard?

I think that's the best he could of done, watch the quailty of the work being done everyday and say something if you don't like it or think there's something wrong. If the conractor gets pissy and leaves then that's a good thing for you... I actually encourage my customers to do this to my work

[CharmyPoo]

I saw that episode too!

Maybe you can sign up for the TV show. I would love for Mike Holmes to do work for me :P

If that's the same episode I'm thinking of, the contractor did a crap job and never completed it. The couple fired him. He then proceeded to place a lien on their house, and also reported them to the city for not having a permit, despite the fact that he told them none was needed.