Why is my tuition so expensive

[kt11]

I'm in an Engineering faculty, my tuition is 9k alone...my friend's tuition in Life Science is a joke...4.5k. I know it's de-regulated, but may I ask why? What's the reason behind this? Does the government want less Engineers? I don't we get that much access to labs than my friend in Life Science, I think he gets much more probably.

[skuric]

Not sure, I have the same tuition going into next year as an ECE frosh... It was $600 less last year :(

But then again, IIRC, engineers make the most money out of any undergrad program right after you graduate.

[CSR]

Does it have to do with supply and demand? Not sure...

[divx]

Are you on your school term right now? If you are, then you won't have time to worry about stuff like that. It's probably got to do with supply and demand, university is a business after all.

[kt11]

Not sure, I have the same tuition going into next year as an ECE frosh... It was $600 less last year :(

But then again, IIRC, engineers make the most money out of any undergrad program right after you graduate.

That's a moot point. Anyone can make alot of money out of any undergrad program. Business students should pay even more, they have a much greater earning potential.


What also pisses me off, is why do they have to make tuition so expensive for first year Engineers if they know that alot of them will fail. A, you failed; B, you owe us 15k.

[tritium4ever]

$9123.66 for all 2007 first year engineering programs at UofT, including tuition and all student society/ancillary fees. Yeah, ouch.

[Zenphic]

Afterall, University isn't meant for everyone :(

[skuric]

That's a moot point. Anyone can make alot of money out of any undergrad program. Business students should pay even more, they have a much greater earning potential.


What also pisses me off, is why do they have to make tuition so expensive for first year Engineers if they know that alot of them will fail. A, you failed; B, you owe us 15k.

True, but on average, the annual earning salary for an engineer right out of uni is somewhere around ~$40-50K (I think Chems and ECES are right up there in front of other eng disciplines), there was a chart a while ago about this.

But yeah, I got a $9123.xx tuition too :( It's funny because the actual program tuition is about $8K.

Edit: k11 and tritium4ever, are you guys going into 1st year at UofT?

[JLei2k]

Different department. All students from the faculty of Arts and Science (everyone but engineers) pay 4.5K first year. Commerce students since they have to qualify to get into the program by meeting course requirements pay 4.5K first year and then have it jump to 10K the year after and 12K the year after that and so on. Luckily I've got tuition waiver. Yay.

[dmdsoftware2]

Engineering will get you a job.

Taking Life Sciences won't get you a job - Everyone I know who took Life Sciences eventually ended up working in an unrelated field or were forced to pursue a higher level of education (Masters or some medical program).

[homesweetplanet]

Tuition for all engineering programs are massively high. A friend of mine at the UofT has the same problem, his tuition is like $10k a year.

I paid about $5k a year when I was in university. College these days is about $3k. I hope I get to go to college before it costs as much as university did!

[homesweetplanet]

Engineering will get you a job.

Taking Life Sciences won't get you a job - Everyone I know who took Life Sciences eventually ended up working in an unrelated field or were forced to pursue a higher level of education (Masters or some medical program).

It can only get you a job if you want to work in a laboratory. Which pays well, but is boring as heck.

I'm going back to college to supplement by BSc with Pharmacy Tech...

[tokajim]

True, but on average, the annual earning salary for an engineer right out of uni is somewhere around ~$40-50K (I think Chems and ECES are right up there in front of other eng disciplines), there was a chart a while ago about this.

But yeah, I got a $9123.xx tuition too :( It's funny because the actual program tuition is about $8K.

Edit: k11 and tritium4ever, are you guys going into 1st year at UofT?

that's what sucks you in. let me tell you from experience, don't choose engineering for the money, you'll be miserable.

you gotta really like engineering to make it through, otherwise when you're done you'll be wondering why you spent all that time to be someone else's b*tch. non-unionized, under-appreciated, stuck in consulting firms until you make it and land a real career-forwarding job.

plus it's just way too hard for all that grief. i assume you're going to waterloo or u of t. it's basically your life 24/7 to be an engineering student. i'm not sure it's all that impressive either if you don't get excellent grades. the main advantage you have is that you'll finish school debt free.

that's enough of the rant.

[Tofu Drift Shinji]

If you think about it that way... Arts students pay as much as Life Science students, and for what? Arts students don't have any labs. They only get tutorials and lectures, like everyone else. They are essentially paying 4.5k to have people talk to them, and grade their work. By your logic, Arts students are getting the least value for their money.

Yet, as an ex-Arts student and a soon-to-be law student, I'm not complaining. A university education costs big money; that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

You will not get parity in tuition cost because the market believes a university education (in whatever specialization you are in) costs/is worth whatever it is you pay per year.

I'm now paying 12k a year in tuition for law school. I still won't be getting any labs.

[bokep]

my engineering tuition is $3.4k a semester, but alas that is (i think) the highest tuition cost in my university.

maybe it's because engineering is a pretty specialized field.

[f00kie]

Engineering will get you a job.

Taking Life Sciences won't get you a job - Everyone I know who took Life Sciences eventually ended up working in an unrelated field or were forced to pursue a higher level of education (Masters or some medical program).

I am an engineering student, and while I've been lucky to have very good jobs so far, I think your first line there is not true.

There are plenty of engineers that, upon graduation, find themselves doing nothing. There are jobs available, but for the best students, who not only have the top marks but also the ability to communicate effectively, which is an ability that a lot of engineering students do not possess.

skuric, at the top, said engineers make the most money coming out of undergrad. While I probably thought the same when getting into engineering (its so hard, the reward must be good, right?), I think business/finance students earn more, plus they probably have a lot more room to grow.

Now, as a general tuition question, I think it's because of the more specialized labs, and the fact that there are all sorts of engineering writing centres that come as part of the tuition cost.

[kt11]

If you think about it that way... Arts students pay as much as Life Science students, and for what? Arts students don't have any labs. They only get tutorials and lectures, like everyone else. They are essentially paying 4.5k to have people talk to them, and grade their work. By your logic, Arts students are getting the least value for their money.

Yet, as an ex-Arts student and a soon-to-be law student, I'm not complaining. A university education costs big money; that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

You will not get parity in tuition cost because the market believes a university education (in whatever specialization you are in) costs/is worth whatever it is you pay per year.

I'm now paying 12k a year in tuition for law school. I still won't be getting any labs.



They have access to take pretty much any course, as an elective. They could do that to get their money's worth no? Although, that would be kind of wierd.:|

[skuric]

Hmm, I really wish I could locate that chart now haha. It makes sense that someone in a business-related field can earn more potentially, but is this true right after graduating?

Secondly, I'm not going into engineering for the money (although it doesn't hurt of course), my mom's an engineer and I know what kind of stress she has to deal with. I'm going into it next year because I like it, and because supposedly you don't close many doors. We'll see what happens.

[f00kie]

I'm going into it next year because I like it, and because supposedly you don't close many doors. We'll see what happens.

You are right about the not-closing doors thing though. You can go to Law school, do an MBA, probably become a doctor, or be "just a regular engineer".

Upon graduation, *I think* a lot of jobs start in the low 40's, unless you get hired by a company you previously worked for.

[gheart008]

TBusiness students should pay even more, they have a much greater earning potential.

Lol the most false statement of all time. Business students THINK they have a greater potential of earning more than others with dreams of becoming managers and such. Of 100 business students who graduate with an undergraduate degree, probably 10 actually achieve this dream.

I work in the financial industry, and trust me, undergraduate business students do NOT have a greater earning potential than other degrees.

I remember way back when I was back in university, first year, first day we had rallies for each department, and the science students would cheer something like "We got the brains", while the business students would chant "You'll work for us". I laughed back then, and I can only laugh now as I was from science and now I have business undergrads working for me. :lol:

[Pricyber]

Thats not that bad for engineering student, I assume your talking about UofT, I am paying 8.3k for a CS program, good thing is a program fee which means i can take more than 5 credit with the same price(ya right!)

[gman]

Thats not that bad for engineering student, I assume your talking about UofT, I am paying 8.3k for a CS program, good thing is a program fee which means i can take more than 5 credit with the same price(ya right!)

Not the first year though, right?

[solidxxx]

It has to do with professor salaries and labs. If you univ students think you are gauranteed a great career after you graduate you are mistaken sorry to say. You have to still go out and get an entry level low paying job and work your way up. Working your way up is different in each field, but to say that one program is easier than another is wishful thinking. This is real life, not university life and universities are a business so whuile your in there, they make you feel all special and make you feel that your going to have a great future and do something important. Engineering jobs and science jobs are the toughest because there is just too many students in those fields, and you have to be specialized in one particular area to really progress. Finance, because they are not only concentrated in one skill is easier becaus ethey are more flexible and their knowledge is more broad and there is more for them to so, which is why you see business students get jobs a lot quicker.

In life, you have a high salary because you can do something not a lot of people can. For example pilots, they drive planes, and the bigger the plane the easier, but why are they paid so much as opposed to a taxi driver which is really the same thing? Because not a lot of people know how to fly. Its all about supply and demand, and universities dont care, its a revolving door, they wont help you find a job they want you to get out so they can suck tuition from soemone else and use whatever they have left to renovate thier buildings. Too many engineers these days and the salary will just get lower and lower.

[skuric]

Engineering jobs and science jobs are the toughest because there is just too many students in those fields, and you have to be specialized in one particular area to really progress.

I was under the impression that HS grads are decreasingly choosing math and science fields such as engineering? I mean wouldn't that explain the lower admission averages and why math and science teachers get paid the most?

[dmdsoftware2]

I am an engineering student, and while I've been lucky to have very good jobs so far, I think your first line there is not true.

There are plenty of engineers that, upon graduation, find themselves doing nothing. There are jobs available, but for the best students, who not only have the top marks but also the ability to communicate effectively, which is an ability that a lot of engineering students do not possess.

skuric, at the top, said engineers make the most money coming out of undergrad. While I probably thought the same when getting into engineering (its so hard, the reward must be good, right?), I think business/finance students earn more, plus they probably have a lot more room to grow.

Now, as a general tuition question, I think it's because of the more specialized labs, and the fact that there are all sorts of engineering writing centres that come as part of the tuition cost.

What field of engineering are you in?

There are a lot of engineering jobs out there but some are better than others. I know one available at my parent's workplace (for a mechanical engineer), but the position doesn't pay well, so that's why they are having trouble filling it.

Also, for some reason, companies will also hire engineers for non-engineering jobs. A co-worker was hired for a Computer Science type job and he as a material engineering degree; two other co-workers for similar Computer Science type jobs have mechanical engineering jobs.

In general, engineering gives you an overall applied background which is suitable for going into the workforce right after graduation. A degree in life sciences is more apt for something to help you get into a further education. All my life science friends who graduated went on to furthering their education. The ones who are still on their way to earning their undergraduate degree, yes they are working in the lab for some cash, but they said there really isn't much work out there that pays anything good unless you take something else.

I give you respect since I know how hard engineering is compared to some of the sciences.

[Bazooka Joe]

Engineering is one of the few "professional" jobs that do not require post grauduate education. If you think their tuition is high, just compare it to law or med school.

Definitely high earning potential, depending on discipline. For example, if you take mining engineering, as long as you pass 4 years you are guaranteed a 50+k job right out of university(until the minerals market takes another downturn that is).

[SamInfinity]

I'm in an Engineering faculty, my tuition is 9k alone...my friend's tuition in Life Science is a joke...4.5k. I know it's de-regulated, but may I ask why? What's the reason behind this? Does the government want less Engineers? I don't we get that much access to labs than my friend in Life Science, I think he gets much more probably.

Um...mine is $11548.12 for tuition alone...

[kt11]

Um...mine is $11548.12 for tuition alone...

Which program, which school? :|

[kt11]

Engineering is one of the few "professional" jobs that do not require post grauduate education. If you think their tuition is high, just compare it to law or med school.

Definitely high earning potential, depending on discipline. For example, if you take mining engineering, as long as you pass 4 years you are guaranteed a 50+k job right out of university(until the minerals market takes another downturn that is).

Toju Drift Shinji is in Law School, he said it himself...he's paying $12k.

UofT Med School :
--------------------------------------------- 06-07 -- 07-08
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2004 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2005 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2006 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entering 2007 NA $16,862


It's about $7k more...a bit more, yes...alot more...no not really. If we're going to follow the idea that Engineers can pay off their debt more because they have higher salaries...well Doctors can pay off their tuition much, much, much faster...they make much, much, much more than the average Engineer. Notice how tuition hasn't increased either.

I'd do Law School, but I don't know what JD, LLM, etc are and what the difference is between them.

[gheart008]

Toju Drift Shinji is in Law School, he said it himself...he's paying $12k.

UofT Med School :
--------------------------------------------- 06-07 -- 07-08
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2004 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2005 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2006 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entering 2007 NA $16,862


It's about $7k more...a bit more, yes...alot more...no not really. If we're going to follow the idea that Engineers can pay off their debt more because they have higher salaries...well Doctors can pay off their tuition much, much, much faster...they make much, much, much more than the average Engineer. Notice how tuition hasn't increased either.

I'd do Law School, but I don't know what JD, LLM, etc are and what the difference is between them.

Even more, UBC dentistry, 45K/year and rising.

[SamInfinity]

Which program, which school? :|

UofT - a second-level entry program

Toju Drift Shinji is in Law School, he said it himself...he's paying $12k.

UofT Med School :
--------------------------------------------- 06-07 -- 07-08
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2004 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2005 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2006 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entering 2007 NA $16,862


It's about $7k more...a bit more, yes...alot more...no not really. If we're going to follow the idea that Engineers can pay off their debt more because they have higher salaries...well Doctors can pay off their tuition much, much, much faster...they make much, much, much more than the average Engineer. Notice how tuition hasn't increased either.

I'd do Law School, but I don't know what JD, LLM, etc are and what the difference is between them.

Yes, except they have MUCH MUCH MORE of that debt when they come out. Four years undergrad + 4 years Doctor of Medicine + residency is a LOT of money. At least over 100K, and may even reach 200K (easy to do a search). Don't forget any bank loans they take out that can further inflate that number.

[VivienM]

Toju Drift Shinji is in Law School, he said it himself...he's paying $12k.

Damn that's cheap compared to my $18K law school tuition bill...

I'd do Law School, but I don't know what JD, LLM, etc are and what the difference is between them.

JD = the basic 3 year law degree, as the Americans or U of T call it
L.L.B. = the traditional Anglo-Canadian name for the same thing as a J.D.
L.L.M. = graduate law degree

[Atheral]

Are we talking about JUST tuition? Or, the total cost including coop fees, student fees, etc.?

My annual tuition is pretty damn expensive for an undergraduate.

Tuition only: $5,616.00 x 2 = $11,232 per year
Including fees: $6,667 per term x 2 = $13,334 per year.

Factor in the costs for residence and... :(

[bokep]

Are we talking about JUST tuition? Or, the total cost including coop fees, student fees, etc.?

My annual tuition is pretty damn expensive for an undergraduate.

Tuition only: $5,616.00 x 2 = $11,232 per year
Including fees: $6,667 per term x 2 = $13,334 per year.

Factor in the costs for residence and... :(

wow

what school is this and what are you taking

[raptorsfever]

My tuition fees will cost me $11,801US tuition fees from September 2007 to May 2008. And $7,100US for room and board in the residence.

I'm planning to complete my Bachelor of Business Administration - Accounting in Northwood University in Michigan.

Yup, it's pretty expensive.

[tritium4ever]

Are we talking about JUST tuition? Or, the total cost including coop fees, student fees, etc.?

My annual tuition is pretty damn expensive for an undergraduate.

Tuition only: $5,616.00 x 2 = $11,232 per year
Including fees: $6,667 per term x 2 = $13,334 per year.

Factor in the costs for residence and... :(

I think people are including tuition and supplemental fees (student society, health plan, that kinda thing), but not residence and meal plan costs. Residence and food will typically double the overall cost of attending a university.

[cadave]

Are we talking about JUST tuition? Or, the total cost including coop fees, student fees, etc.?

My annual tuition is pretty damn expensive for an undergraduate.

Tuition only: $5,616.00 x 2 = $11,232 per year
Including fees: $6,667 per term x 2 = $13,334 per year.

Factor in the costs for residence and... :(

Are you in AFM at UW? The tuition cost is the exact same as mine... :lol:

[awestruck]

I have it the worse. I'm doing a double major and one of the fees for my majors (Comp Sci) is deregulated. Even though I am not taking any CS courses whatsoever this school year (already completed the requirements for the cs major), I still need to pay the program fee, which is around $3500~, so instead of paying $4500~, I have to pay around $8000~ this year just because the CS Major is listed as one of my subject posts.

Does anyone know if there's a way I can waive this fee? There has to be. If I was taking a CS course this year then I obviously have to pay the deregulated fee, but if I completed the requirements of the major already, then there must be some way I can be waived of this fee. I already talked to a counselor and they said there's no way to not pay despite the fact I won't be taking any CS courses, but if anyone here knows anything, let me know. Not having to pay this $3500 fee would be great.

[Truemana]

Wow, you guys are overpaying. I'm heading into term 3B of electrical engineering at the University of Victoria, and my tuition is $3170 for one semester. Thats 6 courses, 5 of which have labs. We have mandatory co-ops (just like Waterloo), and the coop program is the third largest in the country. Living expenses are cheap out here. Only problem is, we only have 4 engineering degrees (mech, elec, comp and software).

Engineering isn't about the money. It's about the responsibility. That iron ring means more than any other piece of paper. I think it should be pointed out that although business students may make more money out of the gate, they won't kill anyone by filing taxes wrong.

Maybe I have a bit of an engineering ego, but I have no problem making less money for a bit of piece of mind. I'm a pretty social guy and I get solid grades, so I find no shame in having an engineering degree with the "nerd" stigma, since I'm not like that. I pay more for tuition, but I'll never think for a second I slacked through.

[f00kie]

What field of engineering are you in?

There are a lot of engineering jobs out there but some are better than others. I know one available at my parent's workplace (for a mechanical engineer), but the position doesn't pay well, so that's why they are having trouble filling it.

Also, for some reason, companies will also hire engineers for non-engineering jobs. A co-worker was hired for a Computer Science type job and he as a material engineering degree; two other co-workers for similar Computer Science type jobs have mechanical engineering jobs.

In general, engineering gives you an overall applied background which is suitable for going into the workforce right after graduation. A degree in life sciences is more apt for something to help you get into a further education. All my life science friends who graduated went on to furthering their education. The ones who are still on their way to earning their undergraduate degree, yes they are working in the lab for some cash, but they said there really isn't much work out there that pays anything good unless you take something else.

I give you respect since I know how hard engineering is compared to some of the sciences.

I am in computer engineering, although I'm going to try to combine it with as much finance-related studies as possible.

While there might be jobs available, I am mostly talking about relevant jobs. Engineering is not IT, nor is it programming. A guy from work, who graduated from Industrial Engineering at U of T was telling me that most of his friends are unemployed, while he was busy programming in Java (and just got another full-time job programming in .NET). I don't think Industrial engineers are supposed to be programmers by nature.

[Atheral]

wow

what school is this and what are you taking

Are you in AFM at UW? The tuition cost is the exact same as mine... :lol:

Haha, yeah I just finished 2B AFM at UW. *tips hat to fellow AFMer

[weedb0y]

Tuition for all engineering programs are massively high. A friend of mine at the UofT has the same problem, his tuition is like $10k a year.

I paid about $5k a year when I was in university. College these days is about $3k. I hope I get to go to college before it costs as much as university did!

I actually paid the same for my Management program at UTM as well. DEM

de-regulated bullsh1t

[stanchua]

23k per year utsc mgmt, international student price, i really wish i could pay domestic fee

[Necrosis]

UofT Med School :
--------------------------------------------- 06-07 -- 07-08
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2004 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2005 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entered 2006 $16,531 $16,862
Doctor of Medicine, Entering 2007 NA $16,862



Wow I wish it was still that low. For 07/08 it's over 18K.

Yes, except they have MUCH MUCH MORE of that debt when they come out. Four years undergrad + 4 years Doctor of Medicine + residency is a LOT of money. At least over 100K, and may even reach 200K (easy to do a search). Don't forget any bank loans they take out that can further inflate that number.

Tuition + cost of equipment + housing + food + other expenses costs most med students probably around 30-35k/year. That's why the banks usually offer around 150k on their lines of credit. However, in residency, you actually do get a salary (around 45k) as opposed to paying tuition.

[bleeet]

I have it the worse. I'm doing a double major and one of the fees for my majors (Comp Sci) is deregulated. Even though I am not taking any CS courses whatsoever this school year (already completed the requirements for the cs major), I still need to pay the program fee, which is around $3500~, so instead of paying $4500~, I have to pay around $8000~ this year just because the CS Major is listed as one of my subject posts.

Does anyone know if there's a way I can waive this fee? There has to be. If I was taking a CS course this year then I obviously have to pay the deregulated fee, but if I completed the requirements of the major already, then there must be some way I can be waived of this fee. I already talked to a counselor and they said there's no way to not pay despite the fact I won't be taking any CS courses, but if anyone here knows anything, let me know. Not having to pay this $3500 fee would be great.

Nope you can't waive the fee

A friend of mine is in the CCIT program (which has the same fee as you) and is in the same situation as you. He couldn't waive the fee at all...once you are in the program you gotta pay the high fees

[Tofu Drift Shinji]

Damn that's cheap compared to my $18K law school tuition bill...

I believe the tuition for the College of Law at U Sask is around $7k. Although attending U Sask for Law could very well limit your employability to the Prairies and Western Canada.

Vivien, did you start law school before the tuition freeze ended? Or are you not studying in Ontario? I know Queen's is $10k, Western is $12k, Oz is $14k, and U of T is $20k.

[alv077]

Haha, yeah I just finished 2B AFM at UW. *tips hat to fellow AFMer

That makes 3 AFMers on RFD so far?

[khtm]

That's a moot point. Anyone can make alot of money out of any undergrad program. Business students should pay even more, they have a much greater earning potential.
Where do you get your "facts" from? Business students definitely do NOT have a higher earning potential than engineers, especially without any additional schooling. A B.Com won't get you that far. Maybe you should check out a few salary surveys ;)

[kt11]

Where do you get your "facts" from? Business students definitely do NOT have a higher earning potential than engineers, especially without any additional schooling. A B.Com won't get you that far. Maybe you should check out a few salary surveys ;)

To each their own...:|

[matkun]

UW 4th year Computational Science - Physics (not CS.. it's a Faculty of Science degree overseen by Fred McCourt, if anyone has ever had him...)

Tution + fees is ~3.2k per semeter.. started out at about ~2.9k when I started. Though $~500 of that is Co-op fee.

[khtm]

To each their own...:|
How about I add "When in Rome" or "We'll cross that bridge when we come to it".

[f00kie]

Where do you get your "facts" from? Business students definitely do NOT have a higher earning potential than engineers, especially without any additional schooling. A B.Com won't get you that far. Maybe you should check out a few salary surveys ;)

Do you know how much traders start at... because I have a rough idea, and most of them are just out of undergrad. Granted, they are highly skilled individuals.

And while we're at it, I think business students have a much higher earning potential in the long run than engineers (say 10 years from graduation). I think you need a Ph.D/MaSc in engineering to be able to earn 6 figures in an actual engineering job, while for business, you can work and get your degrees, like the MBA, or the CFA, or whatever else there is.

[khtm]

Do you know how much traders start at... because I have a rough idea, and most of them are just out of undergrad. Granted, they are highly skilled individuals.

And while we're at it, I think business students have a much higher earning potential in the long run than engineers (say 10 years from graduation). I think you need a Ph.D/MaSc in engineering to be able to earn 6 figures in an actual engineering job, while for business, you can work and get your degrees, like the MBA, or the CFA, or whatever else there is.
For the number of "traders" that make $500k there's 100 other B.Com grads that work at Enterprise Rent-A-Car making $30k. We're talking averages here, aren't we? Yes, on AVERAGE engineers will make more than B.Com graduates. Either 1 year, 5 years, or 20 years after graduating. That's a fact. My theory is that B.Com students are a cocky bunch, even worse than engineers, and if one of them gets a decent job, say doing investment banking, then he'll brag about it to everyone and cause everyone to think that ALL B.Com grads get jobs like that. Definitely not the case.

Here's an Alberta Salary Survey site if you're interested:
http://www.alis.gov.ab.ca/wageinfo/Content/RequestAction.asp?format=html&aspAction=GetWageSalarySearch&Page=SearchSalary

I'd be surprised if Ontario was that much off, other than the wages being lower, but perhaps engineers in Ontario are just getting the short end of the stick?

And no, you don't need a Ph.D or MaSc to earn 6 figures, many engineers in Alberta, less than 5 years out of university, with a P.Eng are already at that level.

[SCRawl]

I think you need a Ph.D/MaSc in engineering to be able to earn 6 figures in an actual engineering job, while for business, you can work and get your degrees, like the MBA, or the CFA, or whatever else there is.

I have a friend (this is not me, and not a theoretical entity) who works as an engineer. He has only a BASc, his P.Eng, and earns into the low six-figures. Mind you, he graduated in the mid-1990s, so he's been at it a while.

I have to shake my head at some of these tuition figures. I took a BSc in physics (at McMaster University), and graduated in 1993. My annual fees, everything in, started at a little over $1700 and ended a little over $2200. Engineering was only a little more expensive. Of course, my degree hasn't been worth much; if I'd had it to do over again, I'd go into engineering. I was 17 when I started, though, so it's not like I had much of an idea what I was doing.

[TurboRegal]

My tuition dropped from $6000 to $5000 (while adding the RIDICULOUS bus pass). :lol:

This is nano engineering at waterloo btw.

[f00kie]

For the number of "traders" that make $500k there's 100 other B.Com grads that work at Enterprise Rent-A-Car making $30k. We're talking averages here, aren't we? Yes, on AVERAGE engineers will make more than B.Com graduates. Either 1 year, 5 years, or 20 years after graduating. That's a fact. My theory is that B.Com students are a cocky bunch, even worse than engineers, and if one of them gets a decent job, say doing investment banking, then he'll brag about it to everyone and cause everyone to think that ALL B.Com grads get jobs like that. Definitely not the case.

Here's an Alberta Salary Survey site if you're interested:
http://www.alis.gov.ab.ca/wageinfo/Content/RequestAction.asp?format=html&aspAction=GetWageSalarySearch&Page=SearchSalary

I'd be surprised if Ontario was that much off, other than the wages being lower, but perhaps engineers in Ontario are just getting the short end of the stick?

And no, you don't need a Ph.D or MaSc to earn 6 figures, many engineers in Alberta, less than 5 years out of university, with a P.Eng are already at that level.

That's fine, but I'm sure there are a lot of engineers that are just completely unemployed too.

Anyway, I am not going to argue. I am in engineering, so if what you're saying is true, I am the one benefiting. It's just that I am working at a top 3 investment bank here in Toronto right now (as more or less a programmer with a certain business aspect), and my general impression of all the various things I've heard/seen/talked to people about is that it's a good place to work at, compensation-wise.

I do not think you can compare Alberta's engineering industry with Toronto's engineering industry though. Two opposite markets, two opposite engineering types. You cannot compare Alberta's finance industry with the one in Toronto either. Maybe this is a stereotype, but Alberta = oil, while Toronto (downtown) = finance.

[Sohjonn]

the more your tuition is the more you'll make after uni

[dubey]

the more your tuition is the more you'll make after uni
Not necessarily but that's the principle tuition costs are based on. Degregulated programs charge more because their grads generally make more out of school and throughout their careers.

[michaeljchan]

My tuition dropped from $6000 to $5000 (while adding the RIDICULOUS bus pass). :lol:

This is nano engineering at waterloo btw.

Ughh I have a car at Loo ... and i dont need this BUs pass :(...
Another thing to add onto the PDeng hate.

I guess its time to take the bus to go from the SLC to DC haha (3 minute walk)

[bromance]

the more your tuition is the more you'll make after uni

hahahahaha


Don’t believe in the crap excuses that UofT tells you. They raise the tuition fees because they want more money that is all. It is not because they want to build more buildings or any other crap excuse they pull. UofT makes a lot of money and a lot of it comes from interest believe it or not. These programs are deregulated because they are easier to deregulate then others since they can easily fool people into thinking that they are paying a lot because they supposedly will make a lot after. Not all deregulated programs give you guaranteed money/job after you graduate

Soon enough all programs will be 8+ grand and UofT will just make another excuse why they did that

If they all offered co-op then I would understand but they don’t which is the funny thing about it………

[michaeljchan]

Did you know :P this is an FYI

PDeng exists only because they wanted to get funding from the government to fund programs such as Nano Engineering.

I got this from a "reliable source". Previously, The university couldnt get funding from the government for students who are in co-op. Therefore, by apply a manditory "course", it makes them qualify for funding.

Yes, it does enrich students, yes it might be good in the long run .. but heck i could live without it :P.

[profguy]

I'm in an Engineering faculty, my tuition is 9k alone...my friend's tuition in Life Science is a joke...4.5k. I know it's de-regulated, but may I ask why? What's the reason behind this? Does the government want less Engineers? I don't we get that much access to labs than my friend in Life Science, I think he gets much more probably.

As an RFDer - the first rule should be don't go if you don't think it is worth the cost.

My thoughts are universities and collleges are very inefficient and heavy on adminstrative and staffing cost - they are a monoply onto themselves and can just pass on the cost to the students. They don't care about cost to student because the demand is there and some other student will want to attend and pay whatever the fee.

[Truemana]

Never, ever believe that where you get your degree gets you more money in the end.

A BEng in Canada is a BEng. It's not your degree that makes you money, it's what you did to get your PEng. Maybe if you lived in the states where they have no overseeing body like we do here (PEO, APEGBC), it matters but definitely not in Canada. Get your PEng in Canada, and you can work anywhere.

[koft]

9k for ENG = a better chance for a job

4.5k for life sci = more education for meds / dents (tuition ranges from 16 - 30k) or harder to find job.

[kt11]

Again, if we're going to follow that logic. We could say Political Science students should pay just as much, as they can become a MP, PM, etc. For business grads, the sky's the limit.

[VivienM]

Again, if we're going to follow that logic. We could say Political Science students should pay just as much, as they can become a MP, PM, etc.

Most political jobs pay horribly... especially if you're not at the federal level. I remember hearing that Dalton McGuinty is paid less as premier of Ontario than his brother (federal opposition MP).

And anyways, there aren't that many former political science majors in elected office. Lots of lawyers (though that's decreasing apparently), teachers, etc.

[Nukey]

9k? I'd take that. My tuition this year is $19,922.09 + $2200 mandatory course material fees + $900 books + $x for a laptop (required) + $x for business casual and business formal clothing I'll need.

My first two years were about 5k so that was pretty sweet. With my RESP and scholarships I didn't need any loans, but that isn't happening this year. Even with pretty good scholarships I needed a LoC.

So... 9k is looking pretty sweet about now lol.

Incase anyone was wondering... my school:
Richard Ivey School of Business (http://www.ivey.ca/hba/hba-ivey-cases.html) on University of Western Ontario Campus.

Aside from the fact that I'm going to be worked to death, I'm looking forward to it :)

[goobelygoop]

Most political jobs pay horribly... especially if you're not at the federal level. I remember hearing that Dalton McGuinty is paid less as premier of Ontario than his brother (federal opposition MP).


LOL wow! Is that really true?!

[VivienM]

LOL wow! Is that really true?!

You can look it up if you want... but given that I heard this from a member of the provincial Cabinet, I'd guess it's true. I didn't check, though.

[koft]

If you want to find out, all public servants and university prof who made more than $100,000 is listed with their salary each year.

[d1sc0veryy]

Incase anyone was wondering... my school:
Richard Ivey School of Business (http://www.ivey.ca/hba/hba-ivey-cases.html) on University of Western Ontario Campus.

Aside from the fact that I'm going to be worked to death, I'm looking forward to it :)

Nukey - Congrats. HBA? Ivey is fantastic school.

As for the rest of the whiners - are you children or young adults?
Money spent on an education is money well spent.
Quit whining.

I bet you dont whine about the money you spend on beer and weed.

Why do people today feel like they are entitled to everything being given to them on a silver platter? Hopefully if people pay they will at least study and pass rather than spending 6 years in university for undergrad.

[Nukey]

Hi d1sc0veryy,

Thanks! Yes, I'm going doing my HBA. Should be interesting :)

[mself084]

You can look it up if you want... but given that I heard this from a member of the provincial Cabinet, I'd guess it's true. I didn't check, though.

Might be true... but MPs and MPPs get expenses paid. Dalton's board in TO is completely paid for, as well as all flights to/from ottawa (his riding). I'm sure he gets many other perks.

[boo4842]

That's a moot point. Anyone can make alot of money out of any undergrad program.


Its not a moot point at all....

If engineers make more right out of university, it is reasonable to conclude then the value of the degree (education received) is higher for engineering. You know how much medicine or law degree costs? You don't think we need doctors?

If your earning potential is higher, you can more easily afford to pay it back. The whole student loan principal is based on the premise that you are getting personal value from an education, so you should be responsible for part of the payment. Even the 9k or whatever isn't even half of what it costs to teach you, the government subsidizes the rest. I don't have the exact stats, but not even half the costs of running a university are covered by tuition.

Business students should pay even more, they have a much greater earning potential.

You have any idea how much an MBA costs? I was quoted $70,000 for 12 months at Ivey School of Business at Western.

What also pisses me off, is why do they have to make tuition so expensive for first year Engineers if they know that alot of them will fail. A, you failed; B, you owe us 15k.

you know what the repayment rates are like for OSAP for programs where a high proportion of people drop out or don't finish? One program at Mowhawk college had something like a 50% default rate on loans.

I'm not unsympathetic with tuition costs though. I personally think they should make university much tougher to get into, have standardized entrance exams, and make tuition competely free for those who qualify. It would also increase competition and prestige of the degree.

Unfortunately the provincial government only has so much money to go around. 3rd level education simply isn't a big priority for them. So 50% of resources goes to health care, 5% goes to 3rd level education (one of the lowest rates in the developed world). Why???

Young people don't have a lot of political power and so education is not a priority. Seniors, baby boomers etc do have a LOT of power and they don't care about education... its all about their interests ie. Health Care.

Demographics have also indicated that there are simply less and less young people and in a few years, those over 65 will make up a greater proportion of the population for the first time ever than those under 15. SO not only do you have little power now, you will have less in the future.

I lived a number of years in Ireland, which has a much lower average age and demographic. Education, housing costs and first time buyers difficulty are the main items on the political agenda and were a much higher priority because of the makeup of the population and their political sway. 3rd level tuition is completely free there by the way.

[weedb0y]

Nope you can't waive the fee

A friend of mine is in the CCIT program (which has the same fee as you) and is in the same situation as you. He couldn't waive the fee at all...once you are in the program you gotta pay the high fees

imagine the backtrack they do! There was one year where my stupid dumba$$ had taken one CCIT course, ofcourse they backtracked it to that year.

[bleeet]

Its not a moot point at all....

If engineers make more right out of university, it is reasonable to conclude then the value of the degree (education received) is higher for engineering. You know how much medicine or law degree costs? You don't think we need doctors?

If your earning potential is higher, you can more easily afford to pay it back. The whole student loan principal is based on the premise that you are getting personal value from an education, so you should be responsible for part of the payment. Even the 9k or whatever isn't even half of what it costs to teach you, the government subsidizes the rest. I don't have the exact stats, but not even half the costs of running a university are covered by tuition.



what?.....

the whole point of deregulated fees isn't because the degrees supposedly give you "potential higher earnings". They were made so that they could drain more money from students and save themselves in case another tuition freeze happens.

Besides not all deregulated programs in UofT guarantee you good pay lol

[VivienM]

If your earning potential is higher, you can more easily afford to pay it back. The whole student loan principal is based on the premise that you are getting personal value from an education, so you should be responsible for part of the payment. Even the 9k or whatever isn't even half of what it costs to teach you, the government subsidizes the rest. I don't have the exact stats, but not even half the costs of running a university are covered by tuition.

No, the student loan principle is based on the idea that people who got an education subsidized by their parents' taxes are now entitled to a tax cut and that their own children should be forced to borrow money instead of getting a subsidized education.

Don't you think there's a problem with the fact that a successful lawyer/doctor with 20 years' experience paid cheap, regulated, subsidized tuition back in the day (in a day when taxes were higher, too), but now if you want to get into that industry, you have to pay for it yourself? So the people who are in those jobs now benefit twice: first, by getting the subsidized education, and second, by getting tax cuts instead of subsidizing the next generation's.

[matkun]

No, the student loan principle is based on the idea that people who got an education subsidized by their parents' taxes are now entitled to a tax cut and that their own children should be forced to borrow money instead of getting a subsidized education.

Don't you think there's a problem with the fact that a successful lawyer/doctor with 20 years' experience paid cheap, regulated, subsidized tuition back in the day (in a day when taxes were higher, too), but now if you want to get into that industry, you have to pay for it yourself? So the people who are in those jobs now benefit twice: first, by getting the subsidized education, and second, by getting tax cuts instead of subsidizing the next generation's.

Yeay for being part of the Baby Boom Echo generation. We get ****ed because the Baby Boomers run everything.

[Juice23]

lol you guys are crazy for whining about "expensive tuition" many of the top privates in the us have 30k+ tuition as standard. At nyu (stern school of business) where I will be going in a few weeks the tuition is 30k+ im not sure the exact figure but it sure is pricey

[bleeet]

lol you guys are crazy for whining about "expensive tuition" many of the top privates in the us have 30k+ tuition as standard. At nyu (stern school of business) where I will be going in a few weeks the tuition is 30k+ im not sure the exact figure but it sure is priceyyea true my brother paid a **** load to goto USC for his undergrad and for dental school there

but the thing is schools over here (UofT to be exact) use some foolish excuses as to why they have high prices.

[Cereal KiIIer]

Gotta love the province of quebec for that!

http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6725/123na8.png (http://imageshack.us)

[divx]

lol you guys are crazy for whining about "expensive tuition" many of the top privates in the us have 30k+ tuition as standard. At nyu (stern school of business) where I will be going in a few weeks the tuition is 30k+ im not sure the exact figure but it sure is pricey

Yes private schools are expensive, you can think of it as you pay for what you get, but then again, public schools are quite good too.

[tallshorty111]

I'm in an Engineering faculty, my tuition is 9k alone...my friend's tuition in Life Science is a joke...4.5k. I know it's de-regulated, but may I ask why? What's the reason behind this? Does the government want less Engineers? I don't we get that much access to labs than my friend in Life Science, I think he gets much more probably.

Heheh...you think that is expensive? My tuition is $45k/year!

[Necrosis]

Yes private schools are expensive, you can think of it as you pay for what you get, but then again, public schools are quite good too.

I disagree. While in some cases this may be true, I see it more like buying brand names - you pay a lot for the name and while the quality is very high, it's not necessarily better than other high quality alternatives.

[netriones]

University is a ripoff. If one can't afford it, don't go.>:(

Going university with a student loan is like gambling. Luckily I paid it off, otherwise, I am screwed for 10 years.

[divx]

University is a ripoff. If one can't afford it, don't go.>:(

Going university with a student loan is like gambling. Luckily I paid it off, otherwise, I am screwed for 10 years.

Life is a gamble, if you want to play it safe, then always bet on green chips, the thing with green chips is that they carry little risk but their pay off isn't so great either, so it is up to you to decide if you want to make decent amount of money in life or risk it to become very rich.

[netriones]

Life is a gamble, if you want to play it safe, then always bet on green chips, the thing with green chips is that they carry little risk but their pay off isn't so great either, so it is up to you to decide if you want to make decent amount of money in life or risk it to become very rich.

It doesn's matter how much you make. It's a matter of how much is left after your expenses and where you put that leftoever.

Mike Tyson is a good example. He makes a lot of money so what happened? He bankrupted.

Life itself is not a gamble. It's a game with certain rules or I should say laws.

[f00kie]

University is a ripoff. If one can't afford it, don't go.>:(

Going university with a student loan is like gambling. Luckily I paid it off, otherwise, I am screwed for 10 years.

I think this is the worst advice on this board.

It took you 10 years to pay your debt off? That raises two questions: how were you spending so much during your university life (undergrad is NOT expensive, and you can, quite easily, pay off your year's tuition through summer work); and why were you not able to pay it off within 1-2 years of graduating when, supposedly, you would have found a job, at least somewhere (i.e. McDonalds would still pay ~$25,000 a year).

[netriones]

I think this is the worst advice on this board.

It took you 10 years to pay your debt off? That raises two questions: how were you spending so much during your university life (undergrad is NOT expensive, and you can, quite easily, pay off your year's tuition through summer work); and why were you not able to pay it off within 1-2 years of graduating when, supposedly, you would have found a job, at least somewhere (i.e. McDonalds would still pay ~$25,000 a year).

No, I paid it off before graduation. When I told the mortgage specialist I already paid off the student loan. He's jaw-dropping.

I won't debate about how easy to pay off in lumsum or how easy to save money during university life.
But here's the STATS:
"The overall 2005 default rate for Ontario postsecondary institutions is 16.6%. The 2005 default rates for each sector range from 10.6% for universities, to 21.5% for colleges of applied arts and technology, to 22.2% for private career colleges and 10.3% for other private and publicly funded institutions." Quoted from OSAP website.
That means 1 out of 5 postsecondary graduates default on their loans. AND STUDENT LOANS IN CANADA ARE NOT DISCHARGED IN A BANKRUPTCY UNLESS THEY ARE OVER 10 YEARS OLD. MEANWHILE, THE COLLECTION AGENCY WILL KEEP YOU BUSY. Other than the defaulted people, the majority of people are struggling to make monthly payment ranging from $300 to $1000 depends on how far you go.

I am not against higher education but I just think borrowing to invest is risky.I said don't go if you can't afford. I should supplement that with: If you really want to go, try to make youself able to afford it using your own cash. If I knew what I know now, I would work hard first in highschool to save for tuition and then go to univerisity. I think starting a carreer without burden is a good way to start a life.

[van]

I'm in an Engineering faculty, my tuition is 9k alone...my friend's tuition in Life Science is a joke...4.5k. I know it's de-regulated, but may I ask why? What's the reason behind this? Does the government want less Engineers?

9K is really nothing compared to law or med school.

By the way, I think one reason why tuition fee's are on the rise could be due to the amount of students that don't pay back their student loans. Appearently there are many that default on their loans after graduating, and some that leave the country.

[White Comet]

2 years ago, first year engineering tuition @ UofT was 7K. If it is 9K now, I am really surprised at how fast rates have gone up.

[Frankie3s]

9K is really nothing compared to law or med school.

By the way, I think one reason why tuition fee's are on the rise could be due to the amount of students that don't pay back their student loans. Appearently there are many that default on their loans after graduating, and some that leave the country.

So true. And the schools aren't necessarily going to eat all of the losses so they will simply pass them on. Just like governmental debt, it's gets passed down from generation to generation. And you can also thank the unions too for your annual spanking.

[aaaaaa]

"For example pilots, they drive planes, and the bigger the plane the easier, but why are they paid so much as opposed to a taxi driver which is really the same thing?"
lol, geez... that's the worst comparison ever. Hopefully you have lots of school ahead of you.

Why do some dept's cost so much, well as mentioned, it doesn't have as much to do with job outcomes as it does with cost to run the program. Of course if they can get away with charging more they will, so taking your MBA isn't exactly cheap.

The real question is why ppl have to pay 10k or more for a year of school here, but in many countries in europe university is free.... do we not pay enough taxes?