Going to cort over a ticket.. Whats the point?

[IoannI]

What I fail to understand is why some of you people go to court over a ticket, even when its a small fine. Just pay the ticket. Honestly what the point? Lets put it into perspective, you miss a day of work including a days worth of pay over a ticket of 40 dollars. Your loosing money that way. Now what if the judge does not rule in your favor. You loose a days pay + the money it costs for the ticket.

Honestly I don't like tickets just like the next guy, but heck I would just pay them.

[Alvito]

each ticket you receive will make your insurance increase. although you may lose a days work of money. you will lose a lot more in the long run.

thats why ppl fight their tickets.

[yao416]

each ticket you receive will make your insurance increase. although you may lose a days work of money. you will lose a lot more in the long run.

thats why ppl fight their tickets.

Oh,

How about parking tickets?

[65505201]

What I fail to understand is why some of you people go to court over a ticket, even when its a small fine. Just pay the ticket. Honestly what the point? Lets put it into perspective, you miss a day of work including a days worth of pay over a ticket of 40 dollars. Your loosing money that way. Now what if the judge does not rule in your favor. You loose a days pay + the money it costs for the ticket.

Honestly I don't like tickets just like the next guy, but heck I would just pay them.

Since the government is using tickets as a method of revenue generation, I don't see a problem with booking a court date and "getting your money's worth." You don't actually have to go, just tie up the system.

[IoannI]

each ticket you receive will make your insurance increase. although you may lose a days work of money. you will lose a lot more in the long run.

thats why ppl fight their tickets.

Not every ticket will make your insurance go up and if it goes up it might not be right away it could be after the second ticket you get. You may lose a days worth of money and you could win so your only out whatever wages you lost. Now look at it from the other side, you may lose a days worth of money and you have to pay the ticket.

[deep]

Since the government is using tickets as a method of revenue generation, I don't see a problem with booking a court date and "getting your money's worth." You don't actually have to go, just tie up the system.
Wonderful thinking. Do you think the government looks at the loss and says "Hey, let's issue fewer tickets", or "Shat, we need to raise taxes because we wasted $300,000 on 65505201's ridiculous court dates."

*

[gilboman]

Wonderful thinking. Do you think the government looks at the loss and says "Hey, let's issue fewer tickets", or "Shat, we need to raise taxes because we wasted $300,000 on 65505201's ridiculous court dates."

*

its not about making the government issue less tickets or what not. its just making them earn it by using up some resources.

and excellent point about raising taxes..if they are raising taxes anyways, i want to know that i'm getting my share of services from it instead of being a complacent sheeple and just paying

[deep]

its not about making the government issue less tickets...
Good, because you'd be an idiot if you thought that might be the result of such an action.

...its just making them earn it by using up some resources.
Wrong. A connection between A and B doesn't compute for the government. They see output, they demand input. There is no "earning" going on here.

...if they are raising taxes anyways, i want to know that i'm getting my share of services from it instead of being a complacent sheeple and just paying
Egads. If that's actually the way you think, then you are contributing to the massive bureaucracies that consume our tax dollars at every level of the government. You "getting your share", especially in the instance, is the dumbest, most wasteful thing I've ever heard of.

When you're in the right, fight. When you're making court dates over tickets with no intention of showing up just to "get your share" (share of WHAT, *?) and "tie up the system" (yay, let's pay more taxes!), feel free to take a long walk off a short dock.

[Andro]

What I fail to understand is why some of you people go to court over a ticket, even when its a small fine. Just pay the ticket. Honestly what the point? Lets put it into perspective, you miss a day of work including a days worth of pay over a ticket of 40 dollars. Your loosing money that way. Now what if the judge does not rule in your favor. You loose a days pay + the money it costs for the ticket.

Honestly I don't like tickets just like the next guy, but heck I would just pay them.

obviously you never been to court.......the question is: "why would you not go to court?"

[TenzoR]

because you are innocent until proven guilty

[KTAPriest]

because you are innocent until proven guilty

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!in USA yes but in Canada you must prove your innocence

[65505201]

When you're in the right, fight. When you're making court dates over tickets with no intention of showing up just to "get your share" (share of WHAT, *?) and "tie up the system" (yay, let's pay more taxes!), feel free to take a long walk off a short dock.

And what exactly is right? Is it right when the government intentionally sets the limits too low so that they can have blitzes whenever they want to generate more income? Take a look around, traffic flows just fine by breaking the law every day.

Holiday blitzes? Sure, tag the drunks and the guys going 50+ over. However, when you hear of the 1000+ tickets, I wonder how many of those were just doing 110-130 on the highway, which is so :rolleyes: unsafe. Seatbelt blitzes? If they are dumb enough not to wear a seatbelt, let Darwinism take them out of the gene pool.

Calling me an ass and telling me to walk off a short dock is unnecessary. If you're fine with the government generating income in the name of safety, feel free to send in a cheque every time you go over the limit.

[65505201]

Wonderful thinking. Do you think the government looks at the loss and says "Hey, let's issue fewer tickets", or "Shat, we need to raise taxes because we wasted $300,000 on 65505201's ridiculous court dates."

*

Raising taxes is akin to political suicide. If they're dumb enough to do so because people are tying up the system, they will get voted out.

[IoannI]

The reason why they want to raise taxes is because Canada is in a huge debt and instead of paying it off they debt they choose to do other things with the money.

[weales]

:lol: @ this thread.

What's the point? Pretty simple, if the ticket in dangers me on having my insurance raise you're ****ing right I'll fight it. Perhaps you should rename the thread "Going to court over a $20 parking ticket...What's the point?".

By all means, if you don't wish to fight it, your choice :razz:

[gman]

Not every ticket will make your insurance go up and if it goes up it might not be right away it could be after the second ticket you get. You may lose a days worth of money and you could win so your only out whatever wages you lost. Now look at it from the other side, you may lose a days worth of money and you have to pay the ticket.

Almost every traffic ticket will affect your insurance rate. If your first ticket does not affect your current policy, it will affect your ability to switch insurance company to get a better rate or the current company to reduce your rate. When you get a quote, the agent asks how many traffic ticket you have in the past N years. They do not separate 0 point, 1 points, 3 points tickets.

I seldom stay in the same company after the policy is expired. I usually get a better rate as a 'new' customer vs the renewal rate.

[gman]

WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!in USA yes but in Canada you must prove your innocence

I have no idea where you get this idea or just a plain joke.
If in Canada you must prove your innocence, you will not be able to win in traffic court when the cop fails to appear.

[65505201]

I have no idea where you get this idea or just a plain joke.
If in Canada you must prove your innocence, you will not be able to win in traffic court when the cop fails to appear.

I think he is referring to when the cop DOES show up. For my appearance, I established that all the officer has to go on is undocumented evidence and that was insufficient to get me off.

[gman]

I think he is referring to when the cop DOES show up. For my appearance, I established that all the officer has to go on is undocumented evidence and that was insufficient to get me off.

If cop does show up, he provides his evidence to show you are guilty. You are innocent until proven guilty (based on evidence provided by this cop). Your job is to make the judge to believe your side of the story.

If Canada is "guilty before proven innocent" and if your charge is (say) speeding, that means you need to provide evidence you were not speeding and the cop does not need to go to the stand to provide anything to show you were speeding (including just saying you were speeding).

[gilboman]

. When you're making court dates over tickets with no intention of showing up just to "get your share" (share of WHAT, *?) and "tie up the system" (yay, let's pay more taxes!), feel free to take a long walk off a short dock.

to get my share of resources. if i'm going to pay a ticket, i want to get my money's worth; since i'm paying for it, i want to be served so that i get something back for the money i spent. Otherwise, the JOP's, clerks, prosecutors etc... i wouldnt be able to use eventhough i paid for it from the ticket

[65505201]

If cop does show up, he provides his evidence to show you are guilty. You are innocent until proven guilty (based on evidence provided by this cop). Your job is to make the judge to believe your side of the story.

If Canada is "guilty before proven innocent" and if your charge is (say) speeding, that means you need to provide evidence you were not speeding and the cop does not need to go to the stand to provide anything to show you were speeding (including just saying you were speeding).

That's just it. All the cop had was his word that the LIDAR was maintained correctly, his training was up to date, and that he had used it correctly. He needed nothing to back up his claims.

Sure, he needed to take the stand, but he could've said anything he wanted to. The onus was on me to provide evidence that I was not speeding.

[deep]

That's just it. All the cop had was his word that the LIDAR was maintained correctly, his training was up to date, and that he had used it correctly. He needed nothing to back up his claims.
That's it, eh? So if all these conditions were not in fact, met, then all the cop needed to do in order to make this incredibly important ticket stick to you was to commit perjury?

Gee, no wonder you're crying foul. :|

[65505201]

That's it, eh? So if all these conditions were not in fact, met, then all the cop needed to do in order to make this incredibly important ticket stick to you was to commit perjury?

Gee, no wonder you're crying foul. :|

There is no way the cop will be charged with perjury, since there is no paper trail to begin with. The cop said that all of the maintenance was done and he was properly trained. Where's the documentation? I requested them months ahead of time and got nothing back.

"Incredibly important ticket"? Please. Let's see how important the ticket is when it's a BS tax grab by the government, costing you thousands of dollars over several years.

[gman]

That's just it. All the cop had was his word that the LIDAR was maintained correctly, his training was up to date, and that he had used it correctly. He needed nothing to back up his claims.

Sure, he needed to take the stand, but he could've said anything he wanted to. The onus was on me to provide evidence that I was not speeding.

And you think there is a difference between US and Canada here? Remember that I was replying to this statement:
WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!in USA yes but in Canada you must prove your innocence

[65505201]

And you think there is a difference between US and Canada here? Remember that I was replying to this statement:

I haven't experienced the US system yet (knock on wood), but my personal experience in the Ontario court is that when it comes to traffic tickets, it is guilty until proven otherwise.

Yes, the cop does have to show up and yes, he has to provide evidence. However, the amount of documentation that is needed to substantiate that evidence is laughable at best. It may as well BE guilty until proven innocent.

When I was defending myself, I made it clear to everyone in the courtroom that the cop had nothing to substantiate his statements. He had no notes regarding my case, yet he was able to 'perfectly' remember everything that happened that day...just like how he was able to remember each of the thousands of tickets he writes each year.

I should add that he 'remembered' the details completely incorrectly. (My lane, traffic conditions, weather conditions, etc.)

Deep was saying that the cop wouldn't risk perjury...but it's next to impossible to nail him on it because, again, there is no documentation.



At around the same time, my dad got an unsafe right turn ticket. The cop pulled him over 4 blocks down the road and claimed that my dad had cut him off during the right turn. Believe what you will, but my dad was 100% sure that the officer was BSing. The cop car was no where near the intersection.

If the cop had showed up on the court day, how could my dad have defended himself?

Dad: The cop car was far enough away that it was not an unsafe lane change.
Cop: (Who was probably looking at his screen instead of the road) No. He cut me off.
Dad: Do you have video evidence?
Cop: No.

Judge: Doesn't matter. I believe the cop. Guilty as charged.


See why I have a problem with the traffic court system?


EDIT: Some of the you are probably saying, gee, it's just a ticket, just suck it up. Don't drive like an idiot and your record will be clean in 5 years. It is that attitude that enables insurance companies to rape consumers and cities to use traffic enforcement as a tool for generating revenue. My aunt who was doing 70 in a 60 will have to be unnecessarily diligent when she drives for the next 5 years. Ooooo...70 in a 60, think of the children!

Again, if you're ok with it, continue to send in your cheques. Just let the rest of us that have a problem with it impede the system.

[gman]

Sigh! I have no argument for what you said. However, you argued about something that have no bearing to my post that replied to another person.

My reply to another person was to point out that there is no difference between US and Canada. Both are innocent until proven guilty. He said only USA is 'innocent until proven guilty' and Canada is not.

You may argue that the 'proven guilty' portion is loose. However, that has nothing to do with my point. My point is USA and Canada is the same.

[masterballer]

I haven't experienced the US system yet (knock on wood), but my personal experience in the Ontario court is that when it comes to traffic tickets, it is guilty until proven otherwise.

Yes, the cop does have to show up and yes, he has to provide evidence. However, the amount of documentation that is needed to substantiate that evidence is laughable at best. It may as well BE guilty until proven innocent.

When I was defending myself, I made it clear to everyone in the courtroom that the cop had nothing to substantiate his statements. He had no notes regarding my case, yet he was able to 'perfectly' remember everything that happened that day...just like how he was able to remember each of the thousands of tickets he writes each year.

I should add that he 'remembered' the details completely incorrectly. (My lane, traffic conditions, weather conditions, etc.)

Deep was saying that the cop wouldn't risk perjury...but it's next to impossible to nail him on it because, again, there is no documentation.



At around the same time, my dad got an unsafe right turn ticket. The cop pulled him over 4 blocks down the road and claimed that my dad had cut him off during the right turn. Believe what you will, but my dad was 100% sure that the officer was BSing. The cop car was no where near the intersection.

If the cop had showed up on the court day, how could my dad have defended himself?

Dad: The cop car was far enough away that it was not an unsafe lane change.
Cop: (Who was probably looking at his screen instead of the road) No. He cut me off.
Dad: Do you have video evidence?
Cop: No.

Judge: Doesn't matter. I believe the cop. Guilty as charged.


See why I have a problem with the traffic court system?


EDIT: Some of the you are probably saying, gee, it's just a ticket, just suck it up. Don't drive like an idiot and your record will be clean in 5 years. It is that attitude that enables insurance companies to rape consumers and cities to use traffic enforcement as a tool for generating revenue. My aunt who was doing 70 in a 60 will have to be unnecessarily diligent when she drives for the next 5 years. Ooooo...70 in a 60, think of the children!

Again, if you're ok with it, continue to send in your cheques. Just let the rest of us that have a problem with it impede the system.


+ 100*10^9999999999

[deep]

"Incredibly important ticket"? Please.
Jesus H, you need to adjust your sarcasm meter....of COURSE your ticket isn't important, that was my point. Why would a cop bother to go to court and lie to a judge over your idiotic insignificant ticket? THAT was my point, but I guess I need to write it in very simple terms.

Let's see how important the ticket is when it's a BS tax grab by the government, costing you thousands of dollars over several years.
There are two ways to avoid this:
1. Follow the frickin rules. I know it's hard, but many people actually manage this feat over the course of their lives.
2. Get the rules changed. Screwing with the system is costing you MORE, not less. When the costs associated with tickets (manpower, court time, resources) continue to rise, the government is motivated to issue MORE, not less. This is my original point to this thread.

[65505201]

Jesus H, you need to adjust your sarcasm meter....of COURSE your ticket isn't important, that was my point. Why would a cop bother to go to court and lie to a judge over your idiotic insignificant ticket? THAT was my point, but I guess I need to write it in very simple terms.


There are two ways to avoid this:
1. Follow the frickin rules. I know it's hard, but many people actually manage this feat over the course of their lives.
2. Get the rules changed. Screwing with the system is costing you MORE, not less. When the costs associated with tickets (manpower, court time, resources) continue to rise, the government is motivated to issue MORE, not less. This is my original point to this thread.

I know you were being sarcastic. I was pointing out that when you are the one that gets the ticket and get raped by insurance, it WILL feel quite important to you. As for the cop lying, there's a slight difference between lying and ********ting. Lying is when you actually know something and say the contrary. BSing is when you have no idea of what you're talking about and spew some crap in your favor.

In this case, the cop is able to BS and get away with it.

As for your two options:
1. When the speed limit is set below the flow of traffic, you try following the rules. The *high and mighty* with no tickets usually just haven't been caught yet. They are just like every other driver.

2. Please - you think politicians will go through the massive expense of changing the speed limit AND take away a source of revenue? It's like the article that I read the other day, where downtown streets aren't designed to accomodate delivery guys to drop off their packages, leading to tons of tickets and revenue for the city. The city *could* reconfigure the road a bit to reduce the number of infractions. You think that's gonna happen? *snicker*

[65505201]

Sigh! I have no argument for what you said. However, you argued about something that have no bearing to my post that replied to another person.

My reply to another person was to point out that there is no difference between US and Canada. Both are innocent until proven guilty. He said only USA is 'innocent until proven guilty' and Canada is not.

You may argue that the 'proven guilty' portion is loose. However, that has nothing to do with my point. My point is USA and Canada is the same.

?

KTAPriest:
USA - Innocent until proven guilty
Canada - Guilty until proven innocent

Gman:
USA - Innocent until proven guilty
Canada - Innocent until proven guilty

65505201:
USA - Don't know
Canada - "Innocent until proven guilty" on paper only, not in practice

[corrupt123]

I'm going to agree with deep. 65505201, the point he is trying to make is in regards to when you said "book a court date, but never show up, just to get your money's worth !" which I will agree, is total ********. If you actually do this, your ticket should increased, if not doubled.

If you're booking a court date to legitimately show up and plead your case, I condone and support that, as I'm sure deep would as well. What you said however was that you would rather book the date and not show up, just to tie up the system. Even if you're in the wrong. This is idiotic, I can only compare it to ordering a pizza and never taking delivery, because "last time" you ordered a pizza they got the order wrong/were late/insert menial reason here. If you did that, you would be charged for the pizza. Same goes for court.

[65505201]

I'm going to agree with deep. 65505201, the point he is trying to make is in regards to when you said "book a court date, but never show up, just to get your money's worth !" which I will agree, is total ********. If you actually do this, your ticket should increased, if not doubled.

If you're booking a court date to legitimately show up and plead your case, I condone and support that, as I'm sure deep would as well. What you said however was that you would rather book the date and not show up, just to tie up the system. Even if you're in the wrong. This is idiotic, I can only compare it to ordering a pizza and never taking delivery, because "last time" you ordered a pizza they got the order wrong/were late/insert menial reason here. If you did that, you would be charged for the pizza. Same goes for court.

Using your analogy, you have to pay (fine+blemish on record) for the pizza whether you show up or not. Booking a court date simply reduces the cut the city/county receives, as they have to pay the officer to show up (and I'm all for paying cops more).

Considering that the majority of people automatically receive a reduced sentence/fine just for showing up, I don't think their 'profit margin' is that tight.

And deep, you're right, eventually the city/county will think, we're not making alot of money here. Should we:

A: Stop wasting our time on enforcing a law that doesn't make sense?
B: Increase enforcement and fines?

When 85%+ of the people get hit with B, politicians will be voted out of the office real quick.

[jeeva86]

Not to threadjack, but I booked a court date for my parking ticket, I haven't received the court date yet, but if I'm unable to attend the specified date for whatever reason, can I have it rescheduled? If not, can I just cancel the court date and pay my fine, without any additional costs?

[drewfar]

If you have a parking ticket date set for a Toronto ticket, expect to wait a year or 2 to hear anything, if ever. I scheduled for 2 tickets over a year and a half ago and still haven't heard anything.

[bobbings]

not everyone going to court will miss work. there are those who don't work because they're in school or those who can easily take a vacation day with pay to go to court. no one wants to have a conviction on their records as it may increase insurance costs. also, having that conviction would mean that you will have a hard time switching over to another insurance company. who wants to risk being blacklisted from the insurance companies' list. 1 conviction seems okay, but would you pay for another speeding ticket? one of the first things the cop would ask is your driving record. telling them you're clean can get you off the hook easier than to let them know you've gotten a couple of tickets. smart move to go to court.

[gman]

They also had night court. I don't know if they still have that though because I have not needed to go for a long while.

BTW, my record of "not guilty" is 5 over 6 tickets. I only lost the first one (when I was 17) which I should have won also (long story).

[iluvmikeharris]

If you have a parking ticket date set for a Toronto ticket, expect to wait a year or 2 to hear anything, if ever. I scheduled for 2 tickets over a year and a half ago and still haven't heard anything.

+1

When they discontinued the early payment option (reduced fine), they made the interest free (and likely forgiveable) loan the easy choice:lol:

Why on earth would you pay the fine on a parking ticket when at worst you'll be paying the same amount way later.

[IoannI]

Well what I am getting at is if the ticket is not going to have any impact on your insurance then what is the point. Like come on it makes no sense to go to court over it and loose money from your job just to save a bit of money. Whats also the point on going to court for a ticket you can't even prove like parking, speeding or even failing to stop at a stop sign. How can you prove that? You can't really. You can only prove a parking ticket if you go to a meter where you get the slip to put on your dashboard since it has the time printed on it.

[iluvmikeharris]

Well what I am getting at is if the ticket is not going to have any impact on your insurance then what is the point. Like come on it makes no sense to go to court over it and loose money from your job just to save a bit of money. Whats also the point on going to court for a ticket you can't even prove like parking, speeding or even failing to stop at a stop sign. How can you prove that? You can't really. You can only prove a parking ticket if you go to a meter where you get the slip to put on your dashboard since it has the time printed on it.

But with the parking court backlog in Toronto, your guaranteed at least a one year plus delay in paying the same fine. I'll take the interest free!

[65505201]

Well what I am getting at is if the ticket is not going to have any impact on your insurance then what is the point.

That's where you're wrong. EVERY ticket impacts your insurance. The question is whether the company will rape you when you get your 2nd ticket or when you try to change companies.

[slim_shady]

That's where you're wrong. EVERY ticket impacts your insurance.

Parking tickets don't affect your insurance.