Why did they build a Sheppard Subway line again?

[Frankie3s]

I was surprised to read in the press how under utilized the new Sheppard subway line is? Didn't they do surveys and studies to either make sure this wouldn't happen or to accurately predict when it will ever begin paying for itself?


http://www.thestar.com/images/assets/252960_3.JPG
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/238023

They're only now looking at mothballing it! Imagine the money that went into this?

[Rosico]

Two lines were proposed, eg and sheppard but the Tories came in and reduced spending and taxes. North York Mayor Mel was able to get sheppard done.

Good ol' wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheppard_%28TTC%29

[hooch]

I was surprised to read in the press how under utilized the new Sheppard subway line is? Didn't they do surveys and studies to either make sure this wouldn't happen or to accurately predict when it will ever begin paying for itself?
They're only now looking at mothballing it! Imagine the money that went into this?

Well, I think part of it was a catch 22 situation. There's a LOT of residential buildings going up along the Sheppard subway line right now, so I expect that the ridership for it would increase, but I doubt that those would've been built, or at least to that degree if the Sheppard line wasn't built. It's a matter of the traffic ramping up.

I don't know why they picked it though. There were lots of better lines they could've built, IMO. York University, closing the loop, etc.

[gman]

I was surprised to read in the press how under utilized the new Sheppard subway line is? Didn't they do surveys and studies to either make sure this wouldn't happen or to accurately predict when it will ever begin paying for itself?


They did do the survey. The major problem is it was not built to fit the original design which much much longer than the current Sheppard line because of not enough funding to do that right.

[UrbanPoet]

it cost under $1 billion to do the sheppard subway...
I wonder what would have happened if they spent all that money on LRT.

[KorruptioN]

If the line went west towards Downsview station, and east all the way to Scarborough Town Centre, I'm sure it would be utilized properly. But then again, that's a lot more money and a lot more construction.

[gr8dlr]

The Spadina line is also underutilized.

My recommended solution to TTC is to increase service times especially in the off peak times. Example: instead of running a train every 6 minutes, run it ever 8 or even 10 minutes. For a rider the worst case is his trip is only 4 minutes longer. This is also true for late night buses especially in the burbs where there are a lot fewer riders at night. Don't know how many times, I've seen a big bus with only one or two passengers on it at night.

Shutting down the line will result in even more riders abandoning the public transit system - they won't come back afterwards! As well there'll be less riders in total resulting in even less money to spend. I would think the incremental cost is not equal to the revenue they earn in which case it's a net loss to the TTC.

[Prometheus]

I was surprised to read in the press how under utilized the new Sheppard subway line is? Didn't they do surveys and studies to either make sure this wouldn't happen or to accurately predict when it will ever begin paying for itself?

They're only now looking at mothballing it! Imagine the money that went into this?

I thought it Mel Lastman's present to the people of North York... Ever wondered why it only went as far east to Fairview Mall? Any further and you're in Scarborough...

[MrDisco]

they can rent it out for movie shoots.

[hooch]

My recommended solution to TTC is to increase service times especially in the off peak times. Example: instead of running a train every 6 minutes, run it ever 8 or even 10 minutes. For a rider the worst case is his trip is only 4 minutes longer.

It's my understanding that they already do this. 2-3 minutes apart during rush hour (which some will say isn't even frequent enough) and ~5 minutes when not. It certainly feels longer than that most of the time though! :) I agree with you, at least in principle. I don't know how much further they could extend it without getting many moer complaints.

This is also true for late night buses especially in the burbs where there are a lot fewer riders at night. Don't know how many times, I've seen a big bus with only one or two passengers on it at night.

If you're talking about Blue Night, they usually have a schedule of every half hour.

[gei]

Sadly some people are very short-sighted. It's a situation of "if you build it they will come"

There is TREMENDOUS development going on along that corridor now.. just take a look at the new Cityplace development. None of that would be happening if it wasn't for the Sheppard line.

[hooch]

they can rent it out for movie shoots.

They already do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_%28TTC%29#Lower_Bay

Well, not the Sheppard line though.

[wilson_wu]

As for the Spadina Line, increasing service won't increase ridership.

Who was the idiot who decided to build a subway in the middle of a highway? lol

[gman]

As for the Spadina Line, increasing service won't increase ridership.


Increase service time means decrease service.

[Audiogenic]

They build the Sheppard line because they used "government" common sense.

[Jon Lai]

They did do the survey. The major problem is it was not built to fit the original design which much much longer than the current Sheppard line because of not enough funding to do that right.

Yea. The Sheppard line was supposed to close to loop by ending at Scarborough Town Center, connecting to the Scarborough RT, which, by the way, is very old. You know how much money TTC spends repairing the RT every year?

[Jon Lai]

I thought it Mel Lastman's present to the people of North York... Ever wondered why it only went as far east to Fairview Mall? Any further and you're in Scarborough...

No, it was supposed to go to Scarborough Town Center, but McGuinty held up funds to build it.

[KorruptioN]

No, it was supposed to go to Scarborough Town Center, but McGuinty held up funds to build it.

Harris cancelled the Eglinton West line altogether just after crews started construction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eglinton_West_subway

[Absolute]

They already do:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_%28TTC%29#Lower_Bay

Well, not the Sheppard line though.

Thanks for the link - it was amazing to see all the movies that were shot there!

[Jon Lai]

Harris cancelled the Eglinton West line altogether just after crews started construction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eglinton_West_subway

That's why we call him "Mike Harass".

[Prometheus]

That's why we call him "Mike Harass".

Wonder why Dalton McGuinty never restored all the funding that was slashed by "Mike Harass"...

[Prometheus]

No, it was supposed to go to Scarborough Town Center, but McGuinty held up funds to build it.

Wake Up McGuinty...

[UrbanPoet]

Wonder why Dalton McGuinty never restored all the funding that was slashed by "Mike Harass"...

yep... a FIBERAL!

[metro]

Alright here are the facts on this whole issue.

The Sheppard subway line was originally designed to link from Sheppard/Yonge to the STC. There was a Sheppard Ave Corridor study done in which there was enough population density, income levels, and types of employment which would make the subway line sustainable.

Bad Boy Mel Lastman was a former counselor in North York and to maintain favour there he really pushed the province to get the Sheppard subway built over other TTC projects. Eventually the funding ran out for the subway (budget over runs and taking longer than expected to build) hence why it only made it to Don Mills. Lastman was on his way out the door as mayor and wasnt seeking reelection so he lost his political willpower to push for the subway to extend into scarborough. He got his "home town" area of the city what they wanted and in turn making him look good where it mattered to him.

The sheppard line seems like a poor idea considering it is located in close proximity to highways and high income residential areas. However, had it made it to scarborough, it would have had a much larger ridership base.

There is currently a 3 phase study that is being conducted by a senior planner at the East District planning office (i cant give names). He/she is studying the current situation of the sheppard corridor where the subway has not been built yet. it has been found that the current density levels in the area are almost double of what is considered required for a sustainable subway line. In fact many of the proposed stops for the sheppard subway line actually have a higher sustainability rating than many stations on both the yonge and bloor lines.

Anyone want further information pm me.

I am not the he/she mentioned
I do not work for the city of toronto
I do not work for the TTC
I do not work for the province

[simms]

Imagine how awesome our TTC would be if we actually implemented all these proposed lines... it would actually be somewhere closer to being on-part with other beta-cities across the world.

[konfusion666]

Imagine how awesome our TTC would be if we actually implemented all these proposed lines... it would actually be somewhere closer to being on-part with other beta-cities across the world.

they'd probably also triple the fare