TTC Budget Shortfalls..Sheppard Subway station may close + surface route cuts...

[wasserkool]

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/237779

"The Sheppard subway could be closed entirely by the end of this year or the beginning of next year, Giambrone said. "

WTF...i mean WTF

[UrbanPoet]

thats terrible........

[jeeva86]

It's the gov't, what you expect? I know a friend who works for the TTC and he says how the workers just add in hours for which they dont work for. Nobody gives a **** down there.

[BaconMunch]

That is the stupidest thing I've heard, either they have pylons as planners or who knows.

How many million did they spend making the subway extension (in a not very useful location mind you) and now they want to close the subway station that connects both? I don't see this one happening.

[Mulder and Scully]

Toronto City Council should open up their f***ing books to the public because I want to see where every single dollar in their budget is going. This is f***ing ridiculous. There's no accountability with the city council and if this were a company you can bet heads would be rolling.

[UrbanPoet]

You should see Bassarion station. Its like a deserted wasteland!
I think they should find ways AROUND the problem...
Why not promote housing and condo development along the Sheppard subway line? Im sure about a few dozen more condos will help add to the population density in the area and help facilitate ridership.

[Shaner]

Just another reason why I would never even consider moving to Toronto. If I did live there, I would definitely move out.

There's just no benefits to living in Toronto like there is with other large cities across the world. The benefits are all outside of Toronto.

Toronto is easily the most mis-managed city in the entire world. What a disgrace.

[MrWizard]

Do I smell a fare hike coming?

[go leafs]

You should see Bassarion station. Its like a deserted wasteland!
I think they should find ways AROUND the problem...
Why not promote housing and condo development along the Sheppard subway line? Im sure about a few dozen more condos will help add to the population density in the area and help facilitate ridership.

Concord Park Place is going in that area - 20 highrises, 10,000 new people
http://photos.newswire.ca/cnw-bin/image_preview.cgi?id=200705150008-Concord-EN.jpg

http://www.concordadex.com/parkplace/

I think this announcement is just a political scare-tactic after the new taxes weren't passed.

[dx1997]

I demand they release thee routes that might be cancelled. Just a heads up.

[Narci]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/07/19/ttc-cuts.html

$0.25 fare hike

close shappard line

remove Pharmacy and Dupont bus routes.

Very sad.

If montreal can have a good transit system, why can't Toronto?

[izzyzz]

Just wondering, does anyone know when (or if ever) was the last time that an independent audit was conducted on the TTC? It seems that they could do a much better job running the corp.

And it's about time they designated TTC as an "essential service", so we wouldn't have to deal with these mothers taking entire city hostage with their ridiculous salary hike demands every 3-4 years.

[konfusion666]

I think this announcement is just a political scare-tactic after the new taxes weren't passed.

+1

Edit: Also, just wondering, why are pay cuts/benefits cuts absolutely NEVER on the list of "possible courses of action" when Cities and Municipalities need to deal with a smaller budget?

[dx1997]

Since we're on the topic of the TTC, where does the money from the TTC auctions go?

In their pockets? Back into the TTC? Anyone?

[rdtx2002]

I have ALWAYS said that the TTC is FILLED with too many Upper Management buffoons.. which were probably all hired by that ******* Howard Moscoe.

The city has been FALLING apart since Mayor Tax Grab Miller came on board.

[KorruptioN]

The Sheppard line is the main route I take to and from school everyday. Bessarion station is indeed deserted, but most people on the train are going from Sheppard-Yonge all the way to Don Mills, then further east after that. I'm not going to be happy if they take that line away.

Taking away the 120 Calvington is a bad idea too - there are lots of people living deep within those neighbourhoods, too far of a walk to Jane, Keele, or Wilson. Only one bus runs this route anyway.

[Narci]

+1

Edit: Also, just wondering, why are pay cuts/benefits cuts absolutely NEVER on the list of "possible courses of action" when Cities and Municipalities need to deal with a smaller budget?

I agree. They need to open up the book to the public. I want to see what % of thier cost is labour cost.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2007/07/19/ttc-cuts.html

All transit expansion plans will also be put on hold, new buses will be mothballed and layoffs are under consideration.

[Blunt]

I blame MEL LASTMAN for this fiasco. The Sheppard line was his pet project.
The Line should have been built on EGLINGTON!!!!

[gei]

I think the kids on the forum don't understand what's really going on here.

Long story short, Toronto is under-funded. The province has dumped hundreds of millions of dollars of social services costs onto toronto which are LEGALLY required to be paid by the province.

Toronto for decades has been the economic power-house of Toronto. The vast majority of the federal budget comes from TORONTO, and the vast majority of the Ontario provincial budget comes from Toronto. However we are given a pittance back to spend on our own services. Toronto is literally in a financial straight-jacket... and of course the ROC (rest of canada) complains as soon as the province tries to make things a bit more fair towards us.

For those of you wanting Toronto to "open the books", go online and search. Toronto has been ranked as the MOST economically efficient municipality in Canada by many independant and government audits. If you compare the amount of money per capital that toronto gets vs other canadian cities, you'll be amazed at how we have survived so long.

Anyway I highly doubt any of these things will happen, the city is just stirring the pot so that torontonians will WAKE UP and realize what will happen if this city is not properly funded. Miller tried his one-cent campaign, but no one in toronto seemed to care enough. Perhaps this will wake some people up in time for the provincial elections coming up (which is obviously the whole point of these threats).

Toronto is the most important city in canada and such be recognized financially as such. We need to start complaining to HIGHER levels of government instead of ingorantly blaming everything on miller.

[Narci]

I think the kids on the forum don't understand what's really going on here.

Long story short, Toronto is under-funded. The province has dumped hundreds of millions of dollars of social services costs onto toronto which are LEGALLY required to be paid by the province.

Toronto for decades has been the economic power-house of Toronto. The vast majority of the federal budget comes from TORONTO, and the vast majority of the Ontario provincial budget comes from Toronto. However we are given a pittance back to spend on our own services. Toronto is literally in a financial straight-jacket... and of course the ROC (rest of canada) complains as soon as the province tries to make things a bit more fair towards us.

For those of you wanting Toronto to "open the books", go online and search. Toronto has been ranked as the MOST economically efficient municipality in Canada by many independant and government audits. If you compare the amount of money per capital that toronto gets vs other canadian cities, you'll be amazed at how we have survived so long.

Anyway I highly doubt any of these things will happen, the city is just stirring the pot so that torontonians will WAKE UP and realize what will happen if this city is not properly funded. Miller tried his one-cent campaign, but no one in toronto seemed to care enough. Perhaps this will wake some people up in time for the provincial elections coming up (which is obviously the whole point of these threats).

Toronto is the most important city in canada and such be recognized financially as such. We need to start complaining to HIGHER levels of government instead of ingorantly blaming everything on miller.

People in this thread are asking for the TTC's books to be open, not the city of Toronto. The public wants to know how the TTC is spending thier tight budget or if funds are being misappropriated.

[KorruptioN]

<snip>

Good post.

[najibs]

THis is exactly why TTC needs to be privatized in order to survive. That, and get rid of the damn union, which simply creates a bunch of lazy, careless, rude, and over paid workers.

The TTC is run like a friggin circus.

[jokaz]

They probably just talking, though I do agree that the Sheppard line is somehow useless. I found myself using it several times while it was empty and I was commuting in certain hours of the day.

[gei]

People in this thread are asking for the TTC's books to be open, not the city of Toronto. The public wants to know how the TTC is spending thier tight budget or if funds are being misappropriated.

The ttc IS run by the city of toronto. Their budget comes out of our budget. The city being underfunded means that the TTC is also underfunded.

Go and compare the operating budget of any comparably sized municipal transit system with the TTC, and again, you will be very surprised at how well run (financially anyway) the ttc really is.

[Rosico]

This is all positioning on Adam's part - he is one of Miller's closest allies.

TTC gets press, so they put this story out first. Don't worry - a lot of stories are going to be coming out re: service cuts.

And yes, there will be a fare hike because there is growth that isn't being financed. The TTC loses money because fares are subsidized to encourage use/equality.

[N_Raged]

The Sheppard line though not totally useless, shouldn't be shut down.

How dumb is this? They spend millions to renovate Union station and now they're running out of money.

[Atheral]

I think the kids on the forum don't understand what's really going on here.

Long story short, Toronto is under-funded. The province has dumped hundreds of millions of dollars of social services costs onto toronto which are LEGALLY required to be paid by the province.

Toronto for decades has been the economic power-house of Ontario. The vast majority of the federal budget comes from TORONTO, and the vast majority of the Ontario provincial budget comes from Toronto. However we are given a pittance back to spend on our own services. Toronto is literally in a financial straight-jacket... and of course the ROC (rest of canada) complains as soon as the province tries to make things a bit more fair towards us.

For those of you wanting Toronto to "open the books", go online and search. Toronto has been ranked as the MOST economically efficient municipality in Canada by many independant and government audits. If you compare the amount of money per capital that toronto gets vs other canadian cities, you'll be amazed at how we have survived so long.

Anyway I highly doubt any of these things will happen, the city is just stirring the pot so that torontonians will WAKE UP and realize what will happen if this city is not properly funded. Miller tried his one-cent campaign, but no one in toronto seemed to care enough. Perhaps this will wake some people up in time for the provincial elections coming up (which is obviously the whole point of these threats).

Toronto is the most important city in canada and such be recognized financially as such. We need to start complaining to HIGHER levels of government instead of ingorantly blaming everything on miller.

+1

[Talamasca]

THis is exactly why TTC needs to be privatized in order to survive. That, and get rid of the damn union, which simply creates a bunch of lazy, careless, rude, and over paid workers.

The TTC is run like a friggin circus.

I couldn't agree more. Has an organization ever gone from being unionized to non-unionized though?

[gei]

I couldn't agree more. Has an organization ever gone from being unionized to non-unionized though?

The unions are all about solidarity. You can't simply fire a couple of people... you would have to literally get rid of almost everyone and re-hire from scratch. It's never been done on such a large scale, and would almost certainly bring transit to a complete halt in Toronto for years while they re-hire and re-train people.

[UrbanPoet]

The unions are all about solidarity. You can't simply fire a couple of people... you would have to literally get rid of almost everyone and re-hire from scratch. It's never been done on such a large scale, and would almost certainly bring transit to a complete halt in Toronto for years while they re-hire and re-train people.

They should do it anyways!!! itll benifit us in the future.

[dx1997]

The entire Sheppard subway line, which opened in 2002, will be shut down in January 2008 if the cuts go through. Poor-performing streetcar and bus routes, 21 of them in all, will also be stopped as the TTC scrambles to make up for the city's shortfall.

"What this does, and it's dramatic and draconian, but it minimalizes - not to say that there will be minimal effect, but it's a best-case scenario in a horrible situation," says Giambrone.

This will mean increased costs for commuters in Toronto, upwards of $0.25 per fare or an extra $10-$15 a month for a metro pass.


$10 to $15? That is an insane jump right there. So basically we gotta get use to a $115 to $120 metropass?

[d_jedi]

The unions are all about solidarity. You can't simply fire a couple of people... you would have to literally get rid of almost everyone and re-hire from scratch. It's never been done on such a large scale, and would almost certainly bring transit to a complete halt in Toronto for years while they re-hire and re-train people.
Worked for Ronald Reagan, did it not?

[d_jedi]

David Miller is a terrible mayor. How is it that Mel Lastman was able to run the city reasonably well under the same sort of conditions (ie. financial constraints), and Miller absolutely cannot?

While city counsellors seem more than willing to cut TTC routes, they seem absolutely unwilling to cut their salary for the good of the city (what kind of pigs at the trough do they have to be to vote themselves a pay increase when the city is in apparent dire financial straits?).

Either the people running the city and the TTC are incompetant morons, or they're playing politics here.. fcuking around with the public. Either way, I'm bloody well sick and tired of it.

What a complete, utter disgrace.

Time to dump Miller.

[MasterAvatar]

I think this is mostly just posturing. The city wants the province and/or feds to contribute some operating cash.

[KorruptioN]

David Miller is a terrible mayor. How is it that Mel Lastman was able to run the city reasonably well under the same sort of conditions (ie. financial constraints), and Miller absolutely cannot?

They're not the same conditions.

[CSR]

This is going to suck for the people who go to Sir John A Macdonald CI. .. its on Pharmacy ave.

[d_jedi]

They're not the same conditions.
They're blaming all of the provincial downloading from the Harris era. Tell me, what new costs have been downloaded to the city since? They've received plenty of extra funds (ex. from the gas tax, raising property taxes, etc.).. so how is the city so much worse off?

[antime1]

i blame dalton mcgee

[Waiwai]

David Miller is a terrible mayor. How is it that Mel Lastman was able to run the city reasonably well under the same sort of conditions (ie. financial constraints), and Miller absolutely cannot?

While city counsellors seem more than willing to cut TTC routes, they seem absolutely unwilling to cut their salary for the good of the city (what kind of pigs at the trough do they have to be to vote themselves a pay increase when the city is in apparent dire financial straits?).

Either the people running the city and the TTC are incompetant morons, or they're playing politics here.. fcuking around with the public. Either way, I'm bloody well sick and tired of it.

What a complete, utter disgrace.

Time to dump Miller.
I remember seeing an article in the paper about them voting to withhold the pay raise but it was voted against (of course, they could just be saying that they did).

I don't think anything will be done about things regarding the TTC union. Like gei said, it would take a lot of time to recover and we all know how bad it is just to have TTC shut down for a day.

[MrDisco]

i blame dalton mcgee

I blame American McGee
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/160/421867037_401a6da4c2.jpg

Look at him sitting all smug. "ooooh I made Alice ooooh look at meeee"

[stuff352]

Blame the harris regime ... they are the ones that dumped the cities with huge expenditures while it showed that its books were balanced. Further toronto not only has to deal with its own problems but the ones of the municipalities around it. People come to toronto when they are in trouble because all the services are here and are well established. (a good example is the homeless).

[Sohjonn]

The Sheppard subway could be mothballed and Toronto Transit Commission riders hit with a 25-cent fare increase because of budget cuts at city hall, TTC chair Adam Giambrone said today.

$3/trip [$6/round trip]? Unbelievable. I drive, but even i can feel their pain.

[d_jedi]

TTC = take the car!

[d_jedi]

I remember seeing an article in the paper about them voting to withhold the pay raise but it was voted against (of course, they could just be saying that they did).
They did vote on it.. but I guess they decided that the city's not in too much trouble, because the pay hike stays. And all of their perks.

[stuff352]

THis is exactly why TTC needs to be privatized in order to survive. That, and get rid of the damn union, which simply creates a bunch of lazy, careless, rude, and over paid workers.

The TTC is run like a friggin circus.

You cant be serious. If the TTC was ever privatized we would have even less service ... the golden rule of business is if it does not generate a profit there is no point in doing it. It is called public transit for a reason ... no business in their right mind would create such a massive and accessible system because it would not be profitable.

[gqbluez]

I agree that the city of Toronto is very poorly managed. David Miller will not get my vote. Hes certainly a tax happy spend happy politician. I'm tired of his tax and tax and tax and raising city councellors wages... oh and lets not forget his million dollar office renovation. Even though he put that on hold I wonder how much it cost to plan out what they would like to do to his office. He should be sitting in a cardboard box not lavishing himself with higher pay and a newer office. Honestly with the way Toronto is managed its so tempting to step over to the 905. From my Condo I can see the 905 and its looking a lot better every day.

[d_jedi]

Councillor Denzil Minnan-Wong, who opposed the taxes, pointed out that even in the council session that ended Wednesday, councillors approved $1-million to buy an ailing local theatre — even as bureaucrats were scrambling to draw up cost-cutting plans.
Good grief.

[babysham]

Absurd. This better just be a scare tactic. Closing down the Sheppard line is ridiculous.

[wolf30]

These damn city councilors should have had a pay reduction. They city is strapped for funds and in the midst of all this this asses vote to have a pay increase while doing a poor ass job. Well none of them are getting my vote in the future.

quote from CTV.ca News Staff
A factor that could come into play are perks councillors receive that are not added onto their pay package.
The incentives include passes to the city's golf courses, the Toronto Zoo and the CNE, as well as a Metropass and parking at green P municipal lots.

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20060725/council_raise_060725?hub=TorontoHome

wtf. Same goes for the fuc&*(^ ttc uniion. Those guys should have a pay reduction.

[dazz]

You guys are wondering where your taxes go??

Look,every time there's a government meeting,a french translation has be done. A booth with 2-3 people+audio/video equipment. You are looking at $2-3K.
It doesn't matter if everyone speaks perfect english!!!
Now,look at the numbers of meetings. They happen every day everywhere in Toronto. Many many of them each day!!
You are looking at millions of $$ wasted.

Some TTC positioins are overpaid. As stated before,there are many people who abuse the system. As it always happen with government projects-things are done bad,because nobody gives a rats @ss

[Atheral]

You cant be serious. If the TTC was ever privatized we would have even less service ... the golden rule of business is if it does not generate a profit there is no point in doing it. It is called public transit for a reason ... no business in their right mind would create such a massive and accessible system because it would not be profitable.

Didn't London privatize their public transit system? They split it up into sections and sold off each one.

[gei]

You guys are wondering where your taxes go??

Look,every time there's a government meeting,a french translation has be done. A booth with 2-3 people+audio/video equipment. You are looking at $2-3K.
It doesn't matter if everyone speaks perfect english!!!
Now,look at the numbers of meetings. They happen every day everywhere in Toronto. Many many of them each day!!
You are looking at millions of $$ wasted.

Some TTC positioins are overpaid. As stated before,there are many people who abuse the system. As it always happen with government projects-things are done bad,because nobody gives a rats @ss

That isn't the case with municipal meetings... stop posting garbage.

All the people complaining about the pay raise probably just read the newspaper headlines and have no clue about the real issues. The pay raises are costing a grand total of $300,000 per year. The city is facing a deficit of $600,000,000+. The salary issue is completely meaningless... and yet people still use it as an argument.

It's reasonable for wages to go up in line with inflation. Yes it's a big one-time increase, but it had been steady for years... it's nothing ridiculous.

Assume they voted against the pay raise, then what would you people be complaining about?

[Jon Lai]

Blame the harris regime ... they are the ones that dumped the cities with huge expenditures while it showed that its books were balanced. Further toronto not only has to deal with its own problems but the ones of the municipalities around it. People come to toronto when they are in trouble because all the services are here and are well established. (a good example is the homeless).

+1

Screw Mike "Harass" and the Conservatives.

[Jon Lai]

+1

Edit: Also, just wondering, why are pay cuts/benefits cuts absolutely NEVER on the list of "possible courses of action" when Cities and Municipalities need to deal with a smaller budget?

They're already working on minimum wage :lol: :lol: :lol:

And this, guys, is why the recent taxes proposed by Miller should have been passed instead of deferred til October. The city is in heavy defecit, and it needs extra funds and taxes to support it. You guys told Miller to cut services instead of raise taxes, and, well, that's exactly what's he's doing with first cutting TTC funding, which lead to this.

I have a feeling you guys will soon need to pay to use the Swimming Pools too ;)

[d_jedi]

They're already working on minimum wage :lol: :lol: :lol:

And this, guys, is why the recent taxes proposed by Miller should have been passed instead of deferred til October. The city is in heavy defecit, and it needs extra funds and taxes to support it. You guys told Miller to cut services instead of raise taxes, and, well, that's exactly what's he's doing with first cutting TTC funding, which lead to this.
No, they need to cut government waste (of which there is plenty.. and it's definately increased under Miller!). It really doesn't make sense to cut TTC service - it's shortsighted and will hurt more in the long run (ex. property values along the Sheppard line will not increase/go down.. and there won't be much new development w/o a subway there.. so the $1B+ invested in that line would be wasted before it starts to really bear fruit). How will business and entertainment venues get by if employees/customers can't get to them?

How are we going to cut GHGs (as Miller has committed TO to do), if this move drives many, many more people to drive cars on our already overcongested streets?

Cutting funding from TTC service (some room to cut from administration) doesn't make much sense. There are plenty of other areas for cost savings, including:

City councillors pay and perks
renovations to mayor's office/nathan phillip's square
contracting out services (such as garbage pickup)


etc.

[ephemera]

Miller stinks!

[george benjamin]

You should see Bassarion station. Its like a deserted wasteland!
I think they should find ways AROUND the problem...
Why not promote housing and condo development along the Sheppard subway line? Im sure about a few dozen more condos will help add to the population density in the area and help facilitate ridership.

Hello UrbanPoet,

Im loving this thread, becuase i cant beleive people think like me.

The ****ing shep line is the most bogus **** i've ever seen.

Lets not start talking about the 100 steps of stairs in those stations.

[aquariaguy]

You should see Bassarion station. Its like a deserted wasteland!
I think they should find ways AROUND the problem...
Why not promote housing and condo development along the Sheppard subway line? Im sure about a few dozen more condos will help add to the population density in the area and help facilitate ridership.


I saw the plans by Concord development, and I counted 22 condos going up in the Ikea/Canadian Tire area. That whole complex is gonna be sick. There's gonna be a school too.

[d_jedi]

And why are they wasting $$ "modernizing" stations? Please tell me that was cut before cutting service..

[tsehou]

No, they need to cut government waste (of which there is plenty.. and it's definately increased under Miller!). It really doesn't make sense to cut TTC service - it's shortsighted and will hurt more in the long run (ex. property values along the Sheppard line will not increase/go down.. and there won't be much new development w/o a subway there.. so the $1B+ invested in that line would be wasted before it starts to really bear fruit). How will business and entertainment venues get by if employees/customers can't get to them?

How are we going to cut GHGs (as Miller has committed TO to do), if this move drives many, many more people to drive cars on our already overcongested streets?

Cutting funding from TTC service (some room to cut from administration) doesn't make much sense. There are plenty of other areas for cost savings, including:

City councillors pay and perks
renovations to mayor's office/nathan phillip's square
contracting out services (such as garbage pickup)


etc.

The Mayor already cancelled his reno, so about a few thousand dollars were saved. What do you propose they cut then?

Community Centre Programs?
Social Housing?
Transportation (mabye they should repair less roads)?

The city is really strapped for cash, and they already provide and pay for more services than a comparable city in the US. In the US the federal government pays a large percentage of the cost for the cost of public transportation, while in Ontario the city is to pay for it all.

In any large organization there will always be some inefficiencies. But I'd doubt even if we get rid of all the inefficiencies we would make a dent in the budget shortfall.

[UrbanPoet]

Hello UrbanPoet,

Im loving this thread, becuase i cant beleive people think like me.

The ****ing shep line is the most bogus **** i've ever seen.

Lets not start talking about the 100 steps of stairs in those stations.

the subways already there... you cant do much about it.
It'd be nice if there was enough ridership to support it and make it profitable.

I think dedicated street car lines are great. I hear that the most profitable line is the Spadina Street car... FAster then waiting for a subway.

[twotterdhc6]

That isn't the case with municipal meetings... stop posting garbage.

All the people complaining about the pay raise probably just read the newspaper headlines and have no clue about the real issues. The pay raises are costing a grand total of $300,000 per year. The city is facing a deficit of $600,000,000+. The salary issue is completely meaningless... and yet people still use it as an argument.

It's reasonable for wages to go up in line with inflation. Yes it's a big one-time increase, but it had been steady for years... it's nothing ridiculous.

Assume they voted against the pay raise, then what would you people be complaining about?

That is true, but you'd think they are smart enough to vote for it as a symbolic move, to get people on their side? Now they give people the impression they are fat pigs.

From the star:
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/237579
On Tuesday, Miller said deferring meant he had no choice but to seek immediate ways to trim the $7.8 billion operating budget.

Miller said that could mean laying off seasonal workers such as litter-pickers.
How much money would they really save by firing some high school kids picking garbage for the summer?

[aquariaguy]

http://www.unions-suck.com/images/company_logo.gif

[twotterdhc6]

People are so quick to blame the unions. Yes, they are not helping their cause with their apparent reputation for laziness and wastefulness, but they are not the root causes here.

[trixstar]

WTF.. this is PURE BS.... We pay more and more for transportation every year.. they get pay raises and strike whenever they need more money.. and look whats happening.. cutting down service? hell no....

[wolf30]

We pay more and more for fares and taxes every year while services continue to decrease wtf while their paycheques go up.

[PCDawg]

Concord Park Place is going in that area - 20 highrises, 10,000 new people
http://photos.newswire.ca/cnw-bin/image_preview.cgi?id=200705150008-Concord-EN.jpg

http://www.concordadex.com/parkplace/

I think this announcement is just a political scare-tactic after the new taxes weren't passed.

That complex sold out quick. For those that brought to flip will not gain much since it was right on the subway line.

Its known that the TTC is always losing money and they had no choice but to shut down the Sheppard line as it did not generate as much traffic as it thought it would.

[DaVibe]

The TTC see's that ridership is up ... ridership is up because gas is up and service is moving (sometimes) ...
If you REDUCE SERVICE and INCREASE FEES, I think they're cutting their own throats this time around ... $6 a day just to head to work on public transit?

Sorry, my gas in my V6 Alero doesn't cost that much, wherever I'm going ... and it's not sweaty, smelly and loud and has inconsistant service like the you-know-what.

And how about KILLING the York University line, maintaining what we have and stop investing in new projects. Work with what we have first.
You kill my Sheppard line, I swear it's going to get so vandalized they won't even know what it is anymore by all the kids in the area.

[DaVibe]

Cutting funding from TTC service (some room to cut from administration) doesn't make much sense. There are plenty of other areas for cost savings, including:

City councillors pay and perks
renovations to mayor's office/nathan phillip's square
contracting out services (such as garbage pickup)


etc.

So true. So, so true.

[dx1997]

I read somewhere, can't remember which news source, since I've read so many on this topic.

Anyways, it said it planned to cut the routes to save money, BUT, no jobs were being lost? I thought by cutting routes, you cut staff, you save money?

How do you save money then? And what will these employees do? Won't the TTC be overstaffed then? Or is it they really stretch whatever staff they have to the core, so everything will be balanced out?

[LuuC]

This is f***ing ridiculous. There's no accountability with the city council and if this were a company you can bet heads would be rolling.

MMMHHHMMM!

My sister was telling me how the city councillors refuse to cut their salary. I'm thinking that they make more than 40 000 a year right? My mom makes almost half that amount and these people just seem to sit on their asses for their salary.

This closing of routes and Sheppard seems like such a narrow idea.
By doing this, we're not making Toronto a greener city. Not everyone drives, and the closures would force people to use cars as the alternate mode of transportation, wouldn't they? :|

[webdoctors]

MMMHHHMMM!

My sister was telling me how the city councillors refuse to cut their salary. I'm thinking that they make more than 40 000 a year right? My mom makes almost half that amount and these people just seem to sit on their asses for their salary.

This closing of routes and Sheppard seems like such a narrow idea.
By doing this, we're not making Toronto a greener city. Not everyone drives, and the closures would force people to use cars as the alternate mode of transportation, wouldn't they? :|

according to newspapers, couincillorsw in Toronto make $95K (from their previous $88K) after the raise.

[Atheral]

according to newspapers, couincillorsw in Toronto make $95K (from their previous $88K) after the raise.

Yeah. There's more info here http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/237579.

Councillor Michael Walker rose yesterday and made a stab at persuading politicians to roll back the 9 per cent salary hike they gave themselves last year. He was ruled out of order by the deputy speaker and councillors voted 22-9 to uphold that ruling, leaving Walker fuming.

"We say there's a crisis and we all agree, but nobody's prepared to start making a sacrifice in their own home or their own pocket," said Walker (Ward 22, St. Paul's).

Walker said it was an important, symbolic vote and that a decision to trim their own salaries would put council in a stronger bargaining position when it asks Queen's Park to ease the city's financial dilemma.

I like this Michael Walker guy.

[express.items]

Yeah. There's more info here http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/237579.



I like this Michael Walker guy.

+1

[rdtx2002]

That isn't the case with municipal meetings... stop posting garbage.

All the people complaining about the pay raise probably just read the newspaper headlines and have no clue about the real issues. The pay raises are costing a grand total of $300,000 per year. The city is facing a deficit of $600,000,000+. The salary issue is completely meaningless... and yet people still use it as an argument.

It's reasonable for wages to go up in line with inflation. Yes it's a big one-time increase, but it had been steady for years... it's nothing ridiculous.

Assume they voted against the pay raise, then what would you people be complaining about?

so does that give the right for the Mayor to buy a 1.2 million dollar useless theatre?

what about the 55k TAX FREE spending account for the council members? how about cutting that?

Renovations to the Mayor's office while CRYING for more money?

[yyz2hkg]

Miller stinks!

IIRC, what happened to all the money that was suppose to go to the TTC from the government a few months ago. I also agree with the terrible way the city is being run with David Miller behind the wheel. IT IS A DISGRACE!

[mlc2000]

You cant be serious. If the TTC was ever privatized we would have even less service ... the golden rule of business is if it does not generate a profit there is no point in doing it. It is called public transit for a reason ... no business in their right mind would create such a massive and accessible system because it would not be profitable.

+1

They privatized the 407.
Nuff said.

[mlc2000]

That isn't the case with municipal meetings... stop posting garbage.

All the people complaining about the pay raise probably just read the newspaper headlines and have no clue about the real issues. The pay raises are costing a grand total of $300,000 per year. The city is facing a deficit of $600,000,000+. The salary issue is completely meaningless... and yet people still use it as an argument.

It's reasonable for wages to go up in line with inflation. Yes it's a big one-time increase, but it had been steady for years... it's nothing ridiculous.

Assume they voted against the pay raise, then what would you people be complaining about?

They should read Lee Iaccoca's book.
Take a $1 salary until its fixed.

Its all about optics. All politicians know this.
Except the left wing nutcases at Toronto City Hall

[Jon Lai]

There are plenty of other areas for cost savings, including:

City councillors pay and perks
renovations to mayor's office/nathan phillip's square
contracting out services (such as garbage pickup)


etc.

Councillor's pay raise paid a bill of $300K. That's nothing compared to the $600M defecit the city is in. Miller's already cancelled his project to renovate his office, and I don't see exactly how contracting out garbage pickup will save the city any money. Please advice.

The only thing that Toronto can bring themselves back from defecit is if McGuinty funds them. No way can Toronto itself find $600M.

[Jon Lai]

The TTC see's that ridership is up ... ridership is up because gas is up and service is moving (sometimes) ...
If you REDUCE SERVICE and INCREASE FEES, I think they're cutting their own throats this time around ... $6 a day just to head to work on public transit?

Sorry, my gas in my V6 Alero doesn't cost that much, wherever I'm going ... and it's not sweaty, smelly and loud and has inconsistant service like the you-know-what.

And how about KILLING the York University line, maintaining what we have and stop investing in new projects. Work with what we have first.
You kill my Sheppard line, I swear it's going to get so vandalized they won't even know what it is anymore by all the kids in the area.

But there are still not enough people to cover costs, obviosuly. And the York University line is far from becoming reality.

[Rosico]

Doesn't anyone find it interesting that the federal gov't has whopping billion dollar surpluses year after year while the Ontario and municipal gov'ts tread very carefully from surplus to deficit?

I don't think it has to do with the the Fed's being efficient ;) it has to do with tax powers and sources. There is only one tax payer but the distribution of those taxes is outdated.

[icecold2021]

theres so much id love to input to this discussion... maybe from home ;)

btw a PDF with all the ttc/ct employees(actually all ontario govt employees) who make 100k+ is available online to the public. even some ttc "operators" make 100k+.


easily put, the citys situation is the fault of all three levels of govt so blaming just one is an uneducated view.

[Rosico]

people who are really interested in TTC policy and politics should check out this guy's blog: really informative (and yes, he supports public transit)

http://www.stevemunro.ca/

[mlc2000]

Councillor's pay raise paid a bill of $300K. That's nothing compared to the $600M defecit the city is in. Miller's already cancelled his project to renovate his office, and I don't see exactly how contracting out garbage pickup will save the city any money. Please advice.

The only thing that Toronto can bring themselves back from defecit is if McGuinty funds them. No way can Toronto itself find $600M.

They've been contracting out garbage pickup in Etobicoke for years, for far less than CUPE.

Miller wanted to buy out the contracts for $4.5M to bring garbage collection back in house.

[mlc2000]

THis is exactly why TTC needs to be privatized in order to survive. That, and get rid of the damn union, which simply creates a bunch of lazy, careless, rude, and over paid workers.

The TTC is run like a friggin circus.

I guess you don't know anything about unions.

If a unionized company is closed, and another one opens in its place, doing the exact same work, by law, the union has 5 years to legally grieve the work being done by non-union workers and the new company would be forced to re-hire the unionized workers.

I know. Our company was unionized. When my family bought it out, we all fell a collective sigh of relief on the 5th anniversary of our purchase date, as no union workers came back expecxting their old jobs back.

Hehe, one of them actually went to work for the TTC.

[rilhouse]

i think it's just fear-mongering to reverse or minimize the TTC budget cuts.

closing the sheppard subway doesn't make sense, maybe they should just close all stations except sheppard/yonge & donmills? most people only use those 2 stations on the line. and raising fares AGAIN? that is BS, LESS service and MORE money? that should be the TTC slogan, WTF.

[rdtx2002]

The government should do what they do in Hong Kong. Create a seperate corporation (government-owned) and have that corporation trade on the stock market.

yes, i'm saying privatization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR_Corporation_Limited

[Jon Lai]

The government should do what they do in Hong Kong. Create a seperate corporation (government-owned) and have that corporation trade on the stock market.

yes, i'm saying privatization

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTR_Corporation_Limited

That means the company is free to charge whatever fees they like to. Take the 407, they increase rates without the provincial government's consent at many times.

And Hong Kong's fares are more or less more expensive than here in Canada. I don't know how it will work here. Hong Kong has a much more clustered population, cars are extremely expensive because most people don't have one, and so people give into the higher subway fares.

[rdtx2002]

That means the company is free to charge whatever fees they like to. Take the 407, they increase rates without the provincial government's consent at many times.

And Hong Kong's fares are more or less more expensive than here in Canada. I don't know how it will work here. Hong Kong has a much more clustered population, cars are extremely expensive because most people don't have one, and so people give into the higher subway fares.

Hong Kong subway uses pay by the distance you travel, it can most certainly work in Toronto.

HK's rates are quite reasonable imo. It costs only 7HKD to go from one side of HK to another side. that is like 1 dollar CDN. Most expensive fare is 13HKD. Have an express route to the airport for 100HKD.

I understand that population difference but i'm sure there is a way they could do this 'reasonably'

[mlc2000]

Do I smell a fare hike coming?

Fare hikes do not equate to a drop in ridership.

Its still cheaper than the car, and its more comfortable than a bicycle.

[pintobean]

+1 for privatization
+1 for a fare hike (and yes I do use the TTC)
+1 for service cuts (and I'm not just talking about the TTC)

The City of Toronto is far too socialist. This is what happens when the people bring in a socialist mayor who wants to spend, spend, spend on services but at the same time won't allow him to raise taxes. You can't have your cake and eat it too people. Either you let the guy raise taxes or you let him cut services. I vote for cutting services...tax hikes will simply perpetuate the cycle of poor fiscal responsibility. If everything is cut down to the bare bones, privatized and then restarted, we'd all be amazed at the efficiency.

Flame away.

[cheukiecfu]

Hong Kong subway uses pay by the distance you travel, it can most certainly work in Toronto.

HK's rates are quite reasonable imo. It costs only 7HKD to go from one side of HK to another side. that is like 1 dollar CDN. Most expensive fare is 13HKD. Have an express route to the airport for 100HKD.

I understand that population difference but i'm sure there is a way they could do this 'reasonably'
but don't forget HK living expense is actually quite cheap. (not including housing expense)
in fact, transportation expense takes up a huge chunk of living expense
buying a meal in HK only costs $20-30HKD
clothes costs like $100HKD

[tsehou]

Hong Kong subway uses pay by the distance you travel, it can most certainly work in Toronto.

HK's rates are quite reasonable imo. It costs only 7HKD to go from one side of HK to another side. that is like 1 dollar CDN. Most expensive fare is 13HKD. Have an express route to the airport for 100HKD.

I understand that population difference but i'm sure there is a way they could do this 'reasonably'

HK's transit system also plays in the real estate market, which is probably where a lot of its income comes from.

[UrbanPoet]

Toronto should be its own province.

[bugmenot]

Toronto should be its own province.

or its own country

[vrus]

here's an interesting question, if Toronto was governed like HK, how much better or worse would it be?

[Stunt_101]

THis is exactly why TTC needs to be privatized in order to survive. That, and get rid of the damn union, which simply creates a bunch of lazy, careless, rude, and over paid workers.

The TTC is run like a friggin circus.

i'm totally with u on this one,

the bus drivers are always rude and careless to passengers.
the are overpaid because of the stupid union
the ttc is infact a circus

once i graduate and get a real job, i'm buying a car.

[mlc2000]

here's an interesting question, if Toronto was governed like HK, how much better or worse would it be?

Do I have to learn the language?

[mlc2000]

i'm totally with u on this one,

the bus drivers are always rude and careless to passengers.
the are overpaid because of the stupid union
the ttc is infact a circus

once i graduate and get a real job, i'm buying a car.

Wow....pretty worldly aspirations...;)

[DaVibe]

But there are still not enough people to cover costs, obviosuly. And the York University line is far from becoming reality.

But is the TTC going to reinvest in all those buses? Before the subway line, the Sheppard line was the busiest line the TTC had and had buses running every 1-2 minutes if I'm not mistaken.
So, take the subway away and reinvest in the needed buses? I doubt it.

I don't think the Sheppard line is there problem and anyone who's ever been on the Sheppard line and watches how people use it to connect their travels (whether it be East on Sheppard, Westbound) will know that it's been a push for people to use the TTC.
Take it away, metropasses will be less, less fairs and less money coming in.

They're nuts. I guess they'll go the provincial health way, fire the old and hire new students for less?

[Jon Lai]

Hong Kong subway uses pay by the distance you travel, it can most certainly work in Toronto.

HK's rates are quite reasonable imo. It costs only 7HKD to go from one side of HK to another side. that is like 1 dollar CDN. Most expensive fare is 13HKD. Have an express route to the airport for 100HKD.

I understand that population difference but i'm sure there is a way they could do this 'reasonably'

I don't know where in Hong Kong you lived. 7HK will probably take you 2-3 stations. If I was to travel from Chai Wan to Tsuen Wan, it would easily cost $50+HK = ~$7CAD. Anytime you go across the Victoria strait, it costs $15HK more.

And yes, a per distance pay could work in Toronto, but we don't have the Octopus transit debit card system like they do. GO Trains are getting it here first, and are slated for 08-09, so imagine when the subways, buses, and convenience stores will get it here :P

By the way, most people who ride the subways here ride from Finch to downtown, which is easily 10+ stations. Almost nobody here rides just a few stations, therefore, for most riders, it means they will be paying MORE than $2.75 or $3 per ride for TTC to retain the same earnings. I think our Metropass system is adequite for Toronto right now, because of how our riders ride. Notice HK doesn't have a monthly flat-fee pass.

[Jon Lai]

here's an interesting question, if Toronto was governed like HK, how much better or worse would it be?

It'll be worst. Our economy is nowhere near as strong as HK to sustain the costs. Plus, HK's government is socialist, I don't think many people here enjoy that type of political ideology.

[Jon Lai]

But is the TTC going to reinvest in all those buses? Before the subway line, the Sheppard line was the busiest line the TTC had and had buses running every 1-2 minutes if I'm not mistaken.
So, take the subway away and reinvest in the needed buses? I doubt it.

I don't think the Sheppard line is there problem and anyone who's ever been on the Sheppard line and watches how people use it to connect their travels (whether it be East on Sheppard, Westbound) will know that it's been a push for people to use the TTC.
Take it away, metropasses will be less, less fairs and less money coming in.

They're nuts. I guess they'll go the provincial health way, fire the old and hire new students for less?

The problem with the Sheppard line is that it's not long enough. People in Scarborough still have to drive, and the parking lot at Fairview Mall costs $3 to park - the metropass doesn't cover that lot. I'm sure most people would rather drive a few blocks more and park at Finch, where the parking is free with a metropass.

Blame the provincial government for cutting funding on the Sheppard line - it was supposed to go all the way to the Scarborough RT.

[BaconMunch]

Blame the provincial government for cutting funding on the Sheppard line - it was supposed to go all the way to the Scarborough RT.

The one problem I see is that it took almost 1 billion dollars to build those 4 or so stops? to extend it to scarborough, let's double the cost to 2 billion dollars. I would love to see if they even spent their money efficiently in that regards. TTC is long overdue for an audit. Yes as a city we depend on it, but we depend on it to be run properly. TTC is one of the biggest embarassments on a world scale and something we cannot boast about. I'd one day love to be proud of the TTC, but until things are done, I'll always hate the TTC and i've been taking it for over 12 years now.

[rdtx2002]

I don't know where in Hong Kong you lived. 7HK will probably take you 2-3 stations. If I was to travel from Chai Wan to Tsuen Wan, it would easily cost $50+HK = ~$7CAD. Anytime you go across the Victoria strait, it costs $15HK more.

you need to update yourself man!

Chai Wan to Sheung Wan

Octopus Single Journey Fare
Adult Concessionary Adult Concessionary
HK$ 6.8 HK$ 3.4 HK$ 7.5 HK$ 4

Min. Travelling Time 26 min.
Interchange Stations No Interchange Station

Chai Wan to Tsuen Wan
Octopus Single Journey Fare
Adult Concessionary Adult Concessionary
HK$ 11.8 HK$ 5.7 HK$ 13 HK$ 6

Min. Travelling Time 51 min.
Interchange Stations Admiralty

The most expensive fare on the MTR is from DisneyLand to SheungWan.. and that is only 26HKD

I have NO IDEA where you are getting this 50HKD from... maybe you are taking a taxi :lol:

And yes, a per distance pay could work in Toronto, but we don't have the Octopus transit debit card system like they do. GO Trains are getting it here first, and are slated for 08-09, so imagine when the subways, buses, and convenience stores will get it here :P

then MAKE an Octopus card system come sooner ;)

[Homer88]

I don't know where in Hong Kong you lived. 7HK will probably take you 2-3 stations. If I was to travel from Chai Wan to Tsuen Wan, it would easily cost $50+HK = ~$7CAD. Anytime you go across the Victoria strait, it costs $15HK more.

And yes, a per distance pay could work in Toronto, but we don't have the Octopus transit debit card system like they do. GO Trains are getting it here first, and are slated for 08-09, so imagine when the subways, buses, and convenience stores will get it here :P

By the way, most people who ride the subways here ride from Finch to downtown, which is easily 10+ stations. Almost nobody here rides just a few stations, therefore, for most riders, it means they will be paying MORE than $2.75 or $3 per ride for TTC to retain the same earnings. I think our Metropass system is adequite for Toronto right now, because of how our riders ride. Notice HK doesn't have a monthly flat-fee pass.

LOL, you're full of crap. Last time it was $8.8 from Central to TST, I don't know what you're smoking. And NO MTR fares will cost more than 50HKD, except to the Airport. The fares on the MTR is around 17-18 at most and that's from Chai Wan to Tsuen Wan, or a bit more to DisneyLand.

I don't know where in HK you live either, its 4.8HKD for 3-4 stops. Not 7HKD.

Oh... and don't give an excuse for your figures being non-octopus prices. Anyone who lives in Hong Kong should have an Octopus unless they're... well... not all that smart.

[d_jedi]

Councillor's pay raise paid a bill of $300K. That's nothing compared to the $600M defecit the city is in. Miller's already cancelled his project to renovate his office, and I don't see exactly how contracting out garbage pickup will save the city any money. Please advice.

The only thing that Toronto can bring themselves back from defecit is if McGuinty funds them. No way can Toronto itself find $600M.
The point is, until the city cuts all of it's extravagant and unnecessary spending and brings costs down as much as possible (without going to extreme, poorly thought out measures.. like closing the subway) - even if this only makes a small dent in the shortfall - there will not be a lot of sympathy for TO' s cause. People outside of TO will ask (rightly so), how much trouble could TO be in - and why should they get more $$ - when other towns/cities can do just fine with the money they have and - in spite of a financial crisis - counsellors decide to up their salaries?

There is certainly some room within the TTC for cost savings. But this should be done by reducing administrative expenses, contracting out services that can be performed better/cheaper by the private sector, etc. Only once they trim the fat, so to speak, (and the TTC union is a big source of this, to be sure!) should they consider service cuts, if more savings are needed.

[wilson_wu]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2006/munic06.html

City of Toronto - Toronto Transit Comm.
DAMJI NAIFEER
Station Collector
Salary Paid $115,387.80
Taxable Benefits $1,246.24

Although there's only one Station Collector making above $100K.
How the hell does a station collector make 100K. :-0

[akito925]

you need to update yourself man!

Chai Wan to Sheung Wan

Octopus Single Journey Fare
Adult Concessionary Adult Concessionary
HK$ 6.8 HK$ 3.4 HK$ 7.5 HK$ 4

Min. Travelling Time 26 min.
Interchange Stations No Interchange Station

Chai Wan to Tsuen Wan
Octopus Single Journey Fare
Adult Concessionary Adult Concessionary
HK$ 11.8 HK$ 5.7 HK$ 13 HK$ 6

Min. Travelling Time 51 min.
Interchange Stations Admiralty

The most expensive fare on the MTR is from DisneyLand to SheungWan.. and that is only 26HKD

I have NO IDEA where you are getting this 50HKD from... maybe you are taking a taxi :lol:



then MAKE an Octopus card system come sooner ;)

they better do that soon, use fare zones like go transit, ttc will make more money also. but ttc is growing too fat and greeedy for money.

[d_jedi]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2006/munic06.html

City of Toronto - Toronto Transit Comm.
DAMJI NAIFEER
Station Collector
Salary Paid $115,387.80
Taxable Benefits $1,246.24

Although there's only one Station Collector making above $100K.
How the hell does a station collector make 100K. :-0
Wow.. nice work, if you can get it.

[KorruptioN]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2006/munic06.html

City of Toronto - Toronto Transit Comm.
DAMJI NAIFEER
Station Collector
Salary Paid $115,387.80
Taxable Benefits $1,246.24

Although there's only one Station Collector making above $100K.
How the hell does a station collector make 100K. :-0

Work for the system for 20+ years.

[Jon Lai]

you need to update yourself man!

Chai Wan to Sheung Wan

Octopus Single Journey Fare
Adult Concessionary Adult Concessionary
HK$ 6.8 HK$ 3.4 HK$ 7.5 HK$ 4

Min. Travelling Time 26 min.
Interchange Stations No Interchange Station

Chai Wan to Tsuen Wan
Octopus Single Journey Fare
Adult Concessionary Adult Concessionary
HK$ 11.8 HK$ 5.7 HK$ 13 HK$ 6

Min. Travelling Time 51 min.
Interchange Stations Admiralty

The most expensive fare on the MTR is from DisneyLand to SheungWan.. and that is only 26HKD

I have NO IDEA where you are getting this 50HKD from... maybe you are taking a taxi :lol:



then MAKE an Octopus card system come sooner ;)

Last time I went back was in 2005, perhaps rates went down from then. I think the rates I remembered were two-way trips though :( But for sure, I remember I paid more than 26HK to go to Disneyland, but when I went, Disneyland didn't open yet (I went the summer before it opened) XD

But Chai Wan to Tsuen Wan seems REALLY LOW.. For sure, I remembered it was at least $8-10HK more just to pass the tunnel, I don't know what happened now..

[rekearb]

toronto is nowhere as crowded as hk so the octopus system might not work. comparing toronto and hk is not that great, they are pretty different.

[spn]

Last time I went back was in 2005, perhaps rates went down from then. I think the rates I remembered were two-way trips though :( But for sure, I remember I paid more than 26HK to go to Disneyland, but when I went, Disneyland didn't open yet (I went the summer before it opened) XD

But Chai Wan to Tsuen Wan seems REALLY LOW.. For sure, I remembered it was at least $8-10HK more just to pass the tunnel, I don't know what happened now..
It's been $11.80 from one end to the other (not including Disneyland, Airport, Tung Chung, etc) with an Octopus card for YEARS.

And don't forget about the $2 fare savers (http://www.mtr.com.hk/eng/whatsnew/faresaver/faresaver_e.htm) located all over the place

[tsehou]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/english/publications/salarydisclosure/2006/munic06.html

City of Toronto - Toronto Transit Comm.
DAMJI NAIFEER
Station Collector
Salary Paid $115,387.80
Taxable Benefits $1,246.24

Although there's only one Station Collector making above $100K.
How the hell does a station collector make 100K. :-0

Seniority and lots of overtime.

[bugmenot]

Cut-backs protest

http://www.eyeweekly.com/daily/?p=665

[konfusion666]

Should the province take over the TTC??

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/239548


I can't see the city letting it go, though... they'll fight to keep it, for political reasons...

[Firebot]

Should the province take over the TTC??

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/239548


I can't see the city letting it go, though... they'll fight to keep it, for political reasons...

If Toronto loses the TTC, it would pretty much solidify David Miller as the worst mayor ever for Toronto regardless of what happens in the future. Then again, I don't see the province taking over as a bad thing, considering they should be subsidizing it in the first place like happens in every other world class city in the world. The city shouldn't be taking the whole brunt of the TTC costs.

Maybe the province would kick those union guys at the TTC back into shape. Not holding my breath though.

[Dragon120]

Totally unrelated to the TTC...

(from the salary website)
City of Timmins WALSH DESMOND Dep. Chief of Police $110,337.28 $1,381.03
City of Timmins WATSON ROBERT J. City Clerk $139,976.10 $3,302.89

How does a City Clerk make more money than a Chief of Police??????

[kiasu]

David Miller is just a POS and a f****** a******...

I dont understand why was he elected again during the election...

No money?! Why not deduct from all the TO councillor's salary?! Each reduce by 5% to 10%. I remembered they were raised 25% last year!

The TTC manager...another POS...no $$$ to implement the 'one card system' (whatever it called)??? That's bs...show us all the money where you spent....

Screw them all......

[danfromwaterloo]

Want to dial back TTC costs?

1) Make all the trains run on computer instead of using real people.
2) Make all stations automated - get rid of collectors.
3) Cut back cleaning staff by 50% (reduce cleaning schedules by 50%)
4) Outsource train maintenance to Bombardier.
5) Outsource track maintenance to CP/CN
6) Clearcut all management.
7) Freeze salaries of all bus drivers/streetcar drivers until debt is cleared.

It's NOT that hard...but nobody wants to take on the unions. It's not that different than taking on the NHLPA...but the TTC is needed more. Declare the TTC a required service and compel them to go back to work.

God. I'd love to be the one to do this. These fat cats have been sucking the teets of the public coffers for too long. It's ridiculous.

[kiasu]

Want to dial back TTC costs?

1) Make all the trains run on computer instead of using real people.
2) Make all stations automated - get rid of collectors.
3) Cut back cleaning staff by 50% (reduce cleaning schedules by 50%)
4) Outsource train maintenance to Bombardier.
5) Outsource track maintenance to CP/CN
6) Clearcut all management.
7) Freeze salaries of all bus drivers/streetcar drivers until debt is cleared.

It's NOT that hard...but nobody wants to take on the unions. It's not that different than taking on the NHLPA...but the TTC is needed more. Declare the TTC a required service and compel them to go back to work.

God. I'd love to be the one to do this. These fat cats have been sucking the teets of the public coffers for too long. It's ridiculous.


Good points..I totally agree with that....

No wonder TO never catches up to the standard like London but it tries to pretend like a 'World class' city? Dream of it Mr David Miller!

[danfromwaterloo]

Good points..I totally agree with that....

No wonder TO never catches up to the standard like London but it tries to pretend like a 'World class' city? Dream of it Mr David Miller!

Toronto wants to leap into "world-class" city status. It doesn't happen that way. It takes decades to become a world-class city.

The fiscal irresponsibilty is astounding with not only the TTC but the government as a whole.

My idea? Make the Auditor-General report to the Leader of the Opposition. The government won't be so free to spend money so "liberally" if they know the opposition can reveal all their spending splurges. Who benefits more from showing lax spending protocols than the Opposition?

[CSAgent]

World class city my butt, the smells of any given TTC station is foul as it is. Not to mention the garbage and the condition of the tracks.

I have never taken the Sheppard line, maybe I should just to see how it is before it goes the way of the dinosaur.

[alv077]

Want to dial back TTC costs?

1) Make all the trains run on computer instead of using real people.
2) Make all stations automated - get rid of collectors.
3) Cut back cleaning staff by 50% (reduce cleaning schedules by 50%)
4) Outsource train maintenance to Bombardier.
5) Outsource track maintenance to CP/CN
6) Clearcut all management.
7) Freeze salaries of all bus drivers/streetcar drivers until debt is cleared.

It's NOT that hard...but nobody wants to take on the unions. It's not that different than taking on the NHLPA...but the TTC is needed more. Declare the TTC a required service and compel them to go back to work.

God. I'd love to be the one to do this. These fat cats have been sucking the teets of the public coffers for too long. It's ridiculous.

I like you :)

[gilboman]

Want to dial back TTC costs?

1) Make all the trains run on computer instead of using real people.
2) Make all stations automated - get rid of collectors.
3) Cut back cleaning staff by 50% (reduce cleaning schedules by 50%)
4) Outsource train maintenance to Bombardier.
5) Outsource track maintenance to CP/CN
6) Clearcut all management.
7) Freeze salaries of all bus drivers/streetcar drivers until debt is cleared.

It's NOT that hard...but nobody wants to take on the unions. It's not that different than taking on the NHLPA...but the TTC is needed more. Declare the TTC a required service and compel them to go back to work.

God. I'd love to be the one to do this. These fat cats have been sucking the teets of the public coffers for too long. It's ridiculous.

1. and how will they pay for the huge initial start up costs of such system and the resulting severence packages that have to be handed out? And what happens when a computer glitch happens and we wait perhaps hours/days for trains to run again as engineers fix the gltich? as much as i think TTC has labour cost issues, you cant just fire people when they are not needed anymore without adequate compensation. Nor can you disregard existing agreement on termination.

2. Agreed. Again costs associated with start up and severance not to mention the huge consultation costs to get a system in place and up and running and maintaince

3. TTC is dirty enough as it is, I don’t think cutting cleaning by 50% is something anybody wants

4&5) not sure until costly consultations are done to analyze the cost savings if any they will entail; but in the meantime, it will only add to escalating costs at TTC

6) Agreed

7) why not cut salaries to min wage while we are at it?

As fashionable it is to bash unions and call TTC workers overpaid/poorly managed (perhaps/perhaps not), your suggestions aren’t really feasible and will only add to the immediate costs/deficit of the TTC. Spending gazillions of dollars on feasibility studies, analysis of all your suggestions will make the situation even worse.

The easiest and remotely accomplishable way to cut costs at the TTC is to CUT SERVICES AND RAISE PRICES. This is the only way and run the TTC like a business, if you don’t like it. Don’t ride it and buy a car or walk. Cut all services by 9pm and decrease bus frequency during non peak hours of travel even more. don't build any bus shelters and do not maintain/upkeep existing ones. It would suck for TTC riders but so what? If you want to cut costs that is the way to do it. Not make massive changes at the TTC that no one knows the benefits (how much and when) but for sure will add huge amount to the current operating budget.

your points are not that hard, but not really workable... mine may be unpopular but they will get the required results fast and cheap

[danfromwaterloo]

1. and how will they pay for the huge initial start up costs of such system and the resulting severence packages that have to be handed out? And what happens when a computer glitch happens and we wait perhaps hours/days for trains to run again as engineers fix the gltich? as much as i think TTC has labour cost issues, you cant just fire people when they are not needed anymore without adequate compensation. Nor can you disregard existing agreement on termination.

Yes, you can. They're called layoffs. Yes, you pay for severance, but in the long run, you save money. And yes, you will go in debt, but for the TTC, there's NO other choice.

And as for reliability - there's a TON of fully automated subways the world over. Not only are they MORE efficient, but they don't cost hardly anything to operate.

2. Agreed. Again costs associated with start up and severance not to mention the huge consultation costs to get a system in place and up and running and maintaince

Yes, again, severance is a small price to pay, over the long run of the TTC.

3. TTC is dirty enough as it is, I don’t think cutting cleaning by 50% is something anybody wants

Depends on how much it saves.

4&5) not sure until costly consultations are done to analyze the cost savings if any they will entail; but in the meantime, it will only add to escalating costs at TTC

I've had friends that work for the TTC and they say that the money wasted is unimaginable. I find it hard to believe that outsourcing these things would result in HIGHER overall costs.

7) why not cut salaries to min wage while we are at it?

You are aware that many of the jobs that the TTC employs (save the trades required to repair the subways and buses) are skillless jobs? Why should drivers be paid 65K a year? Or more? Want a better paying job? Get educated and move up into management. A well-paying job is not an entitlement of hard work. A bus driver is a bus driver, and there's only so much salary that a bus driver should be able command.


As fashionable it is to bash unions and call TTC workers overpaid/poorly managed (perhaps/perhaps not), your suggestions aren’t really feasible and will only add to the immediate costs/deficit of the TTC. Spending gazillions of dollars on feasibility studies, analysis of all your suggestions will make the situation even worse.

Maybe if you want to be myopic and only look at the next 2-3 years. Over the course of the next 10 years, these suggestions would save billions. Literally billions.


The easiest and remotely accomplishable way to cut costs at the TTC is to CUT SERVICES AND RAISE PRICES. This is the only way and run the TTC like a business, if you don’t like it. Don’t ride it and buy a car or walk. Cut all services by 9pm and decrease bus frequency during non peak hours of travel even more. don't build any bus shelters and do not maintain/upkeep existing ones. It would suck for TTC riders but so what? If you want to cut costs that is the way to do it. Not make massive changes at the TTC that no one knows the benefits (how much and when) but for sure will add huge amount to the current operating budget.

Wicked. So, instead of tackling the disease, we're going to adjust our lifestyle to fit the symptoms. No, city hall needs to say enough is enough. Let me ask you this question: where does the money go from the raised prices and the cut services? Where does it go? Nobody knows. Not even the fatcats at city hall. They throw it into a coffer and that's the end of it. There's no accountability and there's no system in place to determine if the money the union is being paid is even fair. For God's sake, there's a ticket collector that's making over 100K! And you want to raise ticket prices to facilitate a system that allows that to happen?

No, not one more dime until they get their sh*t together.

your points are not that hard, but not really workable... mine may be unpopular but they will get the required results fast and cheap

Required results for whom? They're workable but unpopular with the people who have been abusing the system from the inside. How would the union react to having their staff cut in third? Probably not very well.

[wilson_wu]

How about getting rid of the subway door guard?

They have one person to drive the train.
They have another person to poke their head out + open/close the doors.

I mean...can't the driver open/close the doors like they do in Montreal?

[dx1997]

Want to dial back TTC costs?

1) Make all the trains run on computer instead of using real people.
2) Make all stations automated - get rid of collectors.
3) Cut back cleaning staff by 50% (reduce cleaning schedules by 50%)
4) Outsource train maintenance to Bombardier.
5) Outsource track maintenance to CP/CN
6) Clearcut all management.
7) Freeze salaries of all bus drivers/streetcar drivers until debt is cleared.

It's NOT that hard...but nobody wants to take on the unions. It's not that different than taking on the NHLPA...but the TTC is needed more. Declare the TTC a required service and compel them to go back to work.

God. I'd love to be the one to do this. These fat cats have been sucking the teets of the public coffers for too long. It's ridiculous.

Only issue I have is #3. There are just so many pigs on the system it's amazing. From spllied starbucks to Tim Horton drinks, to McDonalds, to Cinnabon boxes, people will eat in front of you and then just litter the box or paper bag in a little corner somewhere. That along with feet on seats, gum on the ground, and the smell of alcohol on certain nights, does not make it a good system to ride at all. And lets not forget about all the newspapers as well.

[gimz]

lucky that i live dt and rarely use the sheppard subway line... but wow thta sucks

[kiasu]

After reading gilboman's replied, I am still strongly agree with danfromwaterloo's point. Enough is enough! TTC! They are freaking rude! Not that I said all but most of them. They think they are getting higher paid, but the services are not improving at all. I dont give a damn or respect to TTC employees if one day they get in trouble or bankrupcy. I have heard a lot of bad cases about how rude the TTC employees are. Even my self I did experience too. Mind you, I didnt say ALL employees but most of them!

[gilboman]

After reading gilboman's replied, I am still strongly agree with danfromwaterloo's point. Enough is enough! TTC! They are freaking rude! Not that I said all but most of them. They think they are getting higher paid, but the services are not improving at all. I dont give a damn or respect to TTC employees if one day they get in trouble or bankrupcy. I have heard a lot of bad cases about how rude the TTC employees are. Even my self I did experience too. Mind you, I didnt say ALL employees but most of them!

then stop riding them;) but if you cant afford to cab it or buy a car, tough luck:twisted:

[alv077]

Only issue I have is #3. There are just so many pigs on the system it's amazing. From spllied starbucks to Tim Horton drinks, to McDonalds, to Cinnabon boxes, people will eat in front of you and then just litter the box or paper bag in a little corner somewhere. That along with feet on seats, gum on the ground, and the smell of alcohol on certain nights, does not make it a good system to ride at all. And lets not forget about all the newspapers as well.

I would imagine that if they added garbage cans to the subway cars it would alleviate this problem.

For the people that are so against salary cutbacks, the average person in ontario makes $40664 a year. (http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/labr79.htm)

Also, the subway cars that the TTC bought have the auto functionality built into it - they just decided not to use it. Zero implementation cost.

Powerful unions are evil.

[Ogata]

I think making them run by computers is a bad idea. What if someone hacks into the system? And if there is a power failure usually the driver leads the people to safety since its pitch black and god knows especially if your stuck on the DVP bridge. Again...City government is stupid.. just like the sidewalk tax.

[shervin2]

They should charge more for advertising on their subways, buses, and streetcars.

Instead of expanding to accommodate the expanding GTA, they are cutting back, what a bunch of batshit retards.

[danfromwaterloo]

I think making them run by computers is a bad idea. What if someone hacks into the system? And if there is a power failure usually the driver leads the people to safety since its pitch black and god knows especially if your stuck on the DVP bridge. Again...City government is stupid.. just like the sidewalk tax.

You are aware that far more vital systems in the world are run by computer and are not hacked (ie. banks, stock exchanges, most of the internet, national secrets - CIA, FBI, NSA, CSIS, not to mention all the federal tax systems). If implemented properly, hacking is a non-issue.

[perplexed_one]

Want to dial back TTC costs?

1) Make all the trains run on computer instead of using real people.
2) Make all stations automated - get rid of collectors.
3) Cut back cleaning staff by 50% (reduce cleaning schedules by 50%)
4) Outsource train maintenance to Bombardier.
5) Outsource track maintenance to CP/CN
6) Clearcut all management.
7) Freeze salaries of all bus drivers/streetcar drivers until debt is cleared.

It's NOT that hard...but nobody wants to take on the unions. It's not that different than taking on the NHLPA...but the TTC is needed more. Declare the TTC a required service and compel them to go back to work.

God. I'd love to be the one to do this. These fat cats have been sucking the teets of the public coffers for too long. It's ridiculous.

i agree with what you say for the most part.

but to clarify something, bus drivers dont make that much, at least thats what i got from this blog http://www.stevemunro.ca/?p=456

as for unions, i think they are a necessary tool to protect those who are the underrated, undervalued and constantly get sh*t on by the public. hell w/o them, hospitals would overload, mountains of garbage would engulf the city, criminals would be shooting up more innocents, etc...

[danfromwaterloo]

i agree with what you say for the most part.

but to clarify something, bus drivers dont make that much, at least thats what i got from this blog http://www.stevemunro.ca/?p=456

as for unions, i think they are a necessary tool to protect those who are the underrated, undervalued and constantly get sh*t on by the public. hell w/o them, hospitals would overload, mountains of garbage would engulf the city, criminals would be shooting up more innocents, etc...

Just so we're clear - bus drivers earn $26.58 PLUS full benefits PLUS pension. For a job that might require a high school education at best. It's completely out of whack. For less than three years on the job. That's more than I make as a Programmer Analyst which required me to go to University for four years AND put in 6 years of experience so far.

Let me emphasize one important point: the salary associated with a position is dependent on a number of factors, but first and foremost is replaceability. If you're replaceable (ie. McDonald's Employee) your salary is low. If you're not, you're not. Are bus drivers really as irreplaceable as their salary dictates?

And lets not even use the pitiful excuse for an argument that "Oh, it's a hard job". There's far worse jobs than being a bus driver.

[icecold2021]

i think the solution is everyone should apply to be a ttc employee.

[danfromwaterloo]

i think the solution is everyone should apply to be a ttc employee.

Let me tell you, if I could, I'd be one in a minute. Not only would I likely get a 100% raise, but my benefits and pension would be insane and I'd be unable to be fired *cough* union *cough*

[gilboman]

Just so we're clear - bus drivers earn $26.58 PLUS full benefits PLUS pension. For a job that might require a high school education at best. It's completely out of whack. For less than three years on the job. That's more than I make as a Programmer Analyst which required me to go to University for four years AND put in 6 years of experience so far.

Let me emphasize one important point: the salary associated with a position is dependent on a number of factors, but first and foremost is replaceability. If you're replaceable (ie. McDonald's Employee) your salary is low. If you're not, you're not. Are bus drivers really as irreplaceable as their salary dictates?

And lets not even use the pitiful excuse for an argument that "Oh, it's a hard job". There's far worse jobs than being a bus driver.

its much easier to hire a programmer analyst than a licneced bus driver who can drive the bus/routes though that's the thing.

university grads are a dime a dozen in most discplines and easy to hire unless you need some professional designation. i'll venture to say you will get more applicants for a programmer analyst who are qualified than a TTC bus driver.

and it may suck but going to university/more educated doesnt always mean you will make more than somebody who didn't although that is not the norm or so the stats tell us.

[mself084]

Let me tell you, if I could, I'd be one in a minute.

Why can't you be a TTC employee?

[danfromwaterloo]

its much easier to hire a programmer analyst than a licneced bus driver who can drive the bus/routes though that's the thing.

university grads are a dime a dozen in most discplines and easy to hire unless you need some professional designation. i'll venture to say you will get more applicants for a programmer analyst who are qualified than a TTC bus driver.

and it may suck but going to university/more educated doesnt always mean you will make more than somebody who didn't although that is not the norm or so the stats tell us.

Please read:

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/jobopps_operators.htm

You don't even need your bus licence - they likely help you get that in your on-the-job training (where you also learn how to drive the routes).

And they pay you while you get trained.

Why should we continue to allow bus drivers to make as much as they do? Or subway operators? Or ticket collectors? On the public dime?

Do you think that a bus driver should make as much as they do? That tons of other people, more educated, harder working, in more dangerous and more critical areas, earn LESS?

[danfromwaterloo]

Why can't you be a TTC employee?

I've applied. Never got a call.

[nopn]

Holy. this would just make traffic in GTA even worst.

[mself084]

I've applied. Never got a call.

Ok - so you applied for a meaningless, crappy job where no education is required....and you didn't get it. You then turn around and rant about how the job is a joke, everyone is paid too much, and how layoffs/reduced salaries are needed. This sounds like sour grapes, buddy.

While I agree employees in transit unions enjoy alot of benefits, I'd put the blame more to the managers who are afraid to enforce contractual agreements. Here in Ottawa there is a big stir because bus drivers won't call out the stops, even though it has been in the collective agreement for years.

Anyways, back on topic. Any updates from TO?

[dx1997]

Picture the City of Toronto with fewer police officers patrolling the streets, reduced garbage collection days and weeds running rampant in the parks. Not a pretty picture? It could be the one coming into focus, as Toronto City Council contemplates making drastic cuts to compensate for the tax hikes that failed to go through in last month's big budget vote.

Those in charge are bracing for a coming report outlining which services could be gored as the "billfighters" at City Hall take drastic measures to keep T.O. from going broke. "You name it, you'll see less of it," warns Councillor Adam Vaughan. "Parks. Lighting in the streets. Action on crackhouses. Action on daycare centres. School pools. All of it is at risk. Every single thing is at risk!"

The worst case scenario ranges from cutting the number of police to stopping some bus and subway service. The best outcome - there could be fewer flowers planted around town, reductions to trash pickups, shorter hours at pools, and cutbacks to snow clearing. Councillors are worried about just what's on the chopping block. "It's like death by a thousand cuts, and that's what I'm really concerned of," admits Etobicoke Centre's Gloria Lindsay-Luby.

The mayor's not looking forward to the bad news, either. "It's very, very regrettable, you know," David Miller emotes, after losing a battle to impose land transfer and motor vehicle levies. "We need to invest in this city, not cut. It needs investment. But at the moment we have no choice."

Miller blames the province for not contributing its fair share and urges voters to make it a campaign issue in the October election. Still, not everyone's buying the 'gloom and doom-it's not our fault' scenario. "Complete fear mongering to threaten to close a subway, to close a park and to close the libraries," fumes Councillor Karen Stintz. "Those aren't the kind of thoughtful strategies that this public is looking for."

She believes blaming Queen's Park is just a deflection of the real problem - profligate and out of control spending at City Hall. But the mayor has his own warning for residents - things will get a lot worse until Ontario pays up. And so far, the powers that be have shown no intention of doing anything close to that.



From citynews.ca

Yay, more garbage from City Hall!

[konfusion666]

I've applied. Never got a call.

they probably didn't need any Philosophy majors with UW degrees?

[rilhouse]

Just so we're clear - bus drivers earn $26.58 PLUS full benefits PLUS pension. For a job that might require a high school education at best. It's completely out of whack. For less than three years on the job. That's more than I make as a Programmer Analyst which required me to go to University for four years AND put in 6 years of experience so far.


if your making <26.58$ plus benefits & pension after a 4 year degree & 6 years experience you are getting screwed big time. find another job.

as for TTC salaries, i don't think they are that over paid, i could be wrong but i think the mean income in the GTA is 55K? also you have to pay better then average for a job for which you are responsible for the safety of others. bus drivers hold the lives of dozens of people in there hands, they have to be paid well to take the job seriously.

[danfromwaterloo]

Ok - so you applied for a meaningless, crappy job where no education is required....and you didn't get it. You then turn around and rant about how the job is a joke, everyone is paid too much, and how layoffs/reduced salaries are needed. This sounds like sour grapes, buddy.

While I agree employees in transit unions enjoy alot of benefits, I'd put the blame more to the managers who are afraid to enforce contractual agreements. Here in Ottawa there is a big stir because bus drivers won't call out the stops, even though it has been in the collective agreement for years.

Anyways, back on topic. Any updates from TO?

I'm happy in my current job, and have no desire now to do something like that, but a few years ago, when I felt like I was in a dead end spot - I did apply. Never got a call back. No harm, no foul, and I don't hold a grudge. My disdain for the TTC's excessive salary is the EXACT reason why I applied in the first place. I figured "Hey, might as well cash in if they're going to pay a ton for stuff like driving a bus". But you have a point - the same reason why I hate unions is the same reason why I (and most other people) would want to be in one. It inflates salary to the point where the end products suffer. There's countless examples of companies that have died because of unionism.

My goal - specifically for the TTC - is easy, fast, and cheap transportation. The only barrier to that is the union. It's killing effective public transit in this city - essentially - out of greed.

[whampoa]

Didn't Shelley Carroll, city budget chief, is quoted in saying:

"If the tax hike budget were approved. Toronto will be the first city in Canada to have a land transfer tax and motor vehicle registering fee. But not the first world class city to do so."

People we have this kind of mindset in city hall this day. No wonder Toronto is figuratively and literally drowning in deficit, .

[danfromwaterloo]

they probably didn't need any Philosophy majors with UW degrees?

Even with my "easy" major, I somehow doubt I'm underqualified. If anything, my ability to talk ad nauseum about debatable issues would be highly covetted on those many union breaks....

[danfromwaterloo]

if your making <26.58$ plus benefits & pension after a 4 year degree & 6 years experience you are getting screwed big time. find another job.

Work it out - assuming a 2000 hour, and also assuming that benefits equates to $1500 extra, and the pension equates to another 5000K a year, that works out to over 60K a year.


as for TTC salaries, i don't think they are that over paid, i could be wrong but i think the mean income in the GTA is 55K? also you have to pay better then average for a job for which you are responsible for the safety of others. bus drivers hold the lives of dozens of people in there hands, they have to be paid well to take the job seriously.

Where do you get the 55K average salary from?

And there's plenty of jobs where people's safety is involved that pay significantly less than 55K a year (ie. McDonald's "cook", kindergarden teachers, nannies, babysitters, etc I can't think of anymore as I write this).

If people are unwilling to accept the fact that TTC workers are overpaid, then they have to accept the fact that the TTC fares are going to continue to skyrocket with no upgrades in service. All the extra money that will go into the TTC coffers will just end up going to raises for the TTC brass.

[rilhouse]

Where do you get the 55K average salary from?

And there's plenty of jobs where people's safety is involved that pay significantly less than 55K a year (ie. McDonald's "cook", kindergarden teachers, nannies, babysitters, etc I can't think of anymore as I write this).



i could be wrong about the 55k$, i think i remember reading that but i'm not about to dig through stats canada to prove anything.

are you seriously comparing the level of responsibility of a macdonalds "cook" to that of a bus driver? get serious.

[alv077]

i could be wrong about the 55k$, i think i remember reading that but i'm not about to dig through stats canada to prove anything.

are you seriously comparing the level of responsibility of a macdonalds "cook" to that of a bus driver? get serious.

http://www40.statcan.ca/l01/cst01/labr79.htm?sdi=earnings

The average is $40664 if you work 52 weeks a year. Sick, huh?

What about the level of responsibility of a lifeguard to a bus driver? They both have to put up with ****** customers and have customers mouth them off. What about those kids at summer camps? They have to watch over damn children that run around, kick people, misbehave, and make sure they don't get killed by cars or kidnappers. Oh no, why are these "student-jobs" being paid so poorly in comparison?

The word stress is just being used to try to justify gross overpayment. Almost all work is stressful.

[gilboman]

Please read:

http://www.toronto.ca/ttc/jobopps_operators.htm

You don't even need your bus licence - they likely help you get that in your on-the-job training (where you also learn how to drive the routes).

And they pay you while you get trained.

Why should we continue to allow bus drivers to make as much as they do? Or subway operators? Or ticket collectors? On the public dime?

Do you think that a bus driver should make as much as they do? That tons of other people, more educated, harder working, in more dangerous and more critical areas, earn LESS?

i don't see anything excessive about 19/hr and then 25/hr after 2.5yrs:confused:

[gilboman]

My goal - specifically for the TTC - is easy, fast, and cheap transportation. The only barrier to that is the union. It's killing effective public transit in this city - essentially - out of greed.

there is no easy, fast and cheap transportation especially in a city as big as toronto but scattered ridership. most public transit is subsidized in major cities in N.America, I think TTC should hike fares so that the city of toronto don't have to subsidize it. TTC should be run like a business instead of recieving handouts from the government. if you ride the TTC, pay the real cost and not subsidized cost.

if you think the union is what is stoping cheap,fast,easy public transit, you are sadly mistaken. because such a thing does not exist and is not achievable without handouts. its time the city cut all subsidies to the TTC

[stillmatic11]

I can't say I have a solution to the problem, but there definitely is a problem with the way the TTC is run. The behaviour I have to encounter from bus drivers is rediculous, it's as though it's a privilage just to ride the bus. When we the customers are in fact paying their salaries, I feel like we should be getting treated better. Instead, most of the time I get a dirty look from the driver for not even doing anything. Then you also have the drivers that conveniently take a break to get coffee and donuts right in the middle of rush hour with a crowded bus in a busy intersection, is that really neccessary?

Regarding the salaries of TTC employees, one thing that is interesting is that despite what they get paid, I'm not sure many people want to be a Bus Driver. Driving a bus isn't exactly the most fulfilling job in the world in my opinion and not something I would want to do. People may look at it as like wow someone is getting paid $52k a year plus benefits for driving a bus, but how many people actually want to drive a bus for a living? I can't imagine many people would want to really. For this reason, I think you get many people that hate driving buses driving them and doing it strictly for the money and as a result, we get poor service.

[danfromwaterloo]

i don't see anything excessive about 19/hr and then 25/hr after 2.5yrs:confused:

Pay and Benefits:

The TTC offers competitive wages and benefits including: Healthcare and Dental plans, Group Life Insurance and a Pension Plan. As per the Local 113 ATU Collective Agreement, the hourly wage rate for this opportunity is $19.43 (rate after training) to $25.74 (rate after 30 months).

[danfromwaterloo]

i could be wrong about the 55k$, i think i remember reading that but i'm not about to dig through stats canada to prove anything.

are you seriously comparing the level of responsibility of a macdonalds "cook" to that of a bus driver? get serious.

Obviously I was exaggerating there - but in terms of public "safety" they too are responsible for ensuring the "safety" of their food. Improperly cooked food (especially the garbage McDicks serves) is dangerous too.

And as mentioned as well, lifeguards get paid FAR less than this.

My big question is where does all the money go? I'd love to see a breakdown of where all the expenses that the TTC incurs goes. They get something like a third of the city budget. Where does that go?

[mself084]

Not sure who said it, but I can imagine driving a bus is not the most rewarding career choice. You get crappy shifts (at least at the beginning until you build seniority, and even then), have to deal with terrible people (ie drunks, people yelling at you, people threatening physical and emotional harm), not to mention you're sitting in traffic most of the day with bad drivers all around you, and babies screaming on your bus. If it takes $25/hour for one of these guys to get me to and from work everyday, with most saying "have a good day/evening, sir", then it is money well spent.

As for days off, pension and healthcare plans, I'd need to see specifics to comment.

[alv077]

Not sure who said it, but I can imagine driving a bus is not the most rewarding career choice. You get crappy shifts (at least at the beginning until you build seniority, and even then), have to deal with terrible people (ie drunks, people yelling at you, people threatening physical and emotional harm), not to mention you're sitting in traffic most of the day with bad drivers all around you, and babies screaming on your bus. If it takes $25/hour for one of these guys to get me to and from work everyday, with most saying "have a good day/evening, sir", then it is money well spent.

As for days off, pension and healthcare plans, I'd need to see specifics to comment.

Most do NOT say, "have a good day/evening". The only time any ttc driver has ever said that was this really young driver at late night shift. Probably making 2x pay.

Everything in bold, I have put up with at my old crappy job. At least on the ttc, you have a bus-load of people that will help you if anyone did anything to really harm you. At my old ****** job, it was more likely I'd be swarmed by the rest of them.

I don't know how often these things even happen to bus drivers - I know it happens more than once a day in crappy lifeguard jobs though. I've never seen anyone abuse a bus driver - ever.

[KorruptioN]

At least on the ttc, you have a bus-load of people that will help you if anyone did anything to really harm you.

Don't be too quick to make that assumption...

[mself084]

Most do NOT say, "have a good day/evening". The only time any ttc driver has ever said that was this really young driver at late night shift. Probably making 2x pay.

Everything in bold, I have put up with at my old crappy job. At least on the ttc, you have a bus-load of people that will help you if anyone did anything to really harm you. At my old ****** job, it was more likely I'd be swarmed by the rest of them.

I don't know how often these things even happen to bus drivers - I know it happens more than once a day in crappy lifeguard jobs though. I've never seen anyone abuse a bus driver - ever.

OK - you have put up with those things at your old job... good for you? Don't understand your point.

If you show a driver respect, you should get it back. I get the "have a good evening" when i thank the driver for the busride home. Karma, I guess.

[gilboman]

Pay and Benefits:

The TTC offers competitive wages and benefits including: Healthcare and Dental plans, Group Life Insurance and a Pension Plan. As per the Local 113 ATU Collective Agreement, the hourly wage rate for this opportunity is $19.43 (rate after training) to $25.74 (rate after 30 months).

again, what's so unreasonable about the wages (they seem fair and not that high) or are you saying fulltime employees shouldn't get benefits or pension:confused:

[danfromwaterloo]

again, what's so unreasonable about the wages (they seem fair and not that high) or are you saying fulltime employees shouldn't get benefits or pension:confused:

First, I think bus drivers are overpaid. That's an arbitrary judgement I've made, that I feel that driving a bus shouldn't entitle you to 60K a year. It's an unskilled labour job. But that's just me.

Second, I think all the people who are ticket collectors, subway drivers, and conductors that work for the TTC are complete wastes of money, as it can all be automated efficiently. Every station has at least one ticket collector working all the time. Every train has one conductor and one driver. Lets say (because I'm too lazy to look) that the TTC has 25 subway stops. Lets also say, for brevity, that it has one train per station in operation. Lets also say that they make $26 a hour (what the bus drivers make). All these numbers seem reasonable if maybe off a little bit. That would mean that the TTC wastes $26 * 3 * 25 = $1950 an hour, doing jobs that a computer could do.

If you say that implementing automated cars and automated ticketing would cost, say $100 million dollars, the TTC would recoup that loss in 50,000 hours (that's 5 years).

[Mr D J]

First, I think bus drivers are overpaid. That's an arbitrary judgement I've made, that I feel that driving a bus shouldn't entitle you to 60K a year. It's an unskilled labour job. But that's just me.

Second, I think all the people who are ticket collectors, subway drivers, and conductors that work for the TTC are complete wastes of money, as it can all be automated efficiently. Every station has at least one ticket collector working all the time. Every train has one conductor and one driver. Lets say (because I'm too lazy to look) that the TTC has 25 subway stops. Lets also say, for brevity, that it has one train per station in operation. Lets also say that they make $26 a hour (what the bus drivers make). All these numbers seem reasonable if maybe off a little bit. That would mean that the TTC wastes $26 * 3 * 25 = $1950 an hour, doing jobs that a computer could do.

If you say that implementing automated cars and automated ticketing would cost, say $100 million dollars, the TTC would recoup that loss in 50,000 hours (that's 5 years).


Ok, now think about all the people they would have to fire and pay them for getting fired because of EI. Also, with that many unemployed people, think about the overall economy of the municipality...

And if there are no collectors, nobody is watching the cameras. TTC will become the crime paradise that way. Now, imagine the computer on a certain train failing (don't tell me that there are perfect computers... they all crash every once in a while). Subway accidents are lethal. Imagine you riding a train one day and it crashes into the train in front of it because of the "automated system". Heck, why don't we just make everything automated... like for example, why do we still need pilots for the planes? Planes should fly themselves. I am not meaning to sound like a troll or anything but I don't see how your plan is realistic.

[mself084]

danfromwaterloo - so what ARE you saying about salaries? are you saying they should be capped at a limit (if so, what)?

[Rosico]

While I do believe I get okay value from the TTC, I can't believe that there are no improvements that could be made.

Other cities have an automated system for collecting fees (New York comes to mind). If safety is your concern, then hire security guards or implement a blue light system as I don't think TTC coin collectors are really trained to handle security matters anyways.

The amount of time they must idle away must be mind-numbing.

And don't lay them off. Just stop hiring these people and train and reassign them to other parts. It's called attrition.

[Mr D J]

I don't think TTC coin collectors are really trained to handle security matters anyways.


I believe you are correct, but the fact that there are cameras at the stations and people in the booth are able to see what's going on makes the criminals way more paranoid. Cameras are mostly there to make sure people behave because they realize they are being watched and whoever is watching them is only a few meters away from them. And what's the point of firing the collectors if you are going to hire security guys and pay them? I do support the automated fare system but how would it work for people with discounts (students, seniors) and people who are able to ride the TTC for free (people with disabilities, etc.).

[GangStarr]

Just another scare tactic to get more money from the government. The sheppard line isn't closing. The day it does the first person to pm me gets $5 paypaled to them.

I mean it!

[perplexed_one]

And if there are no collectors, nobody is watching the cameras. TTC will become the crime paradise that way. Now, imagine the computer on a certain train failing (don't tell me that there are perfect computers... they all crash every once in a while). Subway accidents are lethal. Imagine you riding a train one day and it crashes into the train in front of it because of the "automated system". Heck, why don't we just make everything automated... like for example, why do we still need pilots for the planes? Planes should fly themselves. I am not meaning to sound like a troll or anything but I don't see how your plan is realistic.

that airplane analogy is stretching it a bit dont you think? up in the sky conditions can change very easily, compare that to a subway... the stakes are higher in the sky.

but i agree with you, we do need humans bcuz they are capable reacting to unique situations. i dont think you can program enuf algorithms into a computer in order to solve/prevent an accident. intuition and creativity cannot be programmed.

[Evil Baby]

Totally unrelated to the TTC...

(from the salary website)
City of Timmins WALSH DESMOND Dep. Chief of Police $110,337.28 $1,381.03
City of Timmins WATSON ROBERT J. City Clerk $139,976.10 $3,302.89

How does a City Clerk make more money than a Chief of Police??????

I'm not sure if the city Clerty in Timmins is part of the finance team but I imagine he is and if so it's probably a hefty bonus because if I'm not mistaken Timmins is the on city in Ontario that has no debt. Also, have you been to Timmins before? It's not like there is a lot of crime in the city. It really doesn't seem like Cheif of Police would have a lot to do on a normal day

[Evil Baby]

As for the city budgets, we really need to what the city is spending their money on.


From your property taxes

TTC - 204.72
Social Services - 185.44
Shelter, support & housing admin - 184.26

Those numbers don't seem too far apart. As far as the good of the city goes it would make more sense to drop money from Social Services and Shelter... and tell the Province/Feds to pick up the bill like they should be.

Perhaps start tolling the DVP/Gardner. like 10 cents a get on or something stupid like that(this idea scares me because I don't think the city of Toronto would actually keep the tolls cheap but if they could just leave it at 10 cents I'd be fine with it personally)


Build a recycling/garbage facilty by the nearest federal prison and have all of Toronto's trash transported to that facilty. Make the criminals sort through all the garbage and recycle absolutely everything. That should cut done immensly on our garbage bill.

Get rid of the stupid fair wage policy and start out sourcing some jobs. Contracts can't even bid on certain projects because they are forced by they city to pay such a crazy high rate to thier employees.

One of the talk show hosts on 1010 was talking about some new spending the city just announced not too long ago with crazy high price tags. Dont' have the exact figures but 45 million for new recyleing bins, 12 million for maitenace of those bins, 30 million for new trees and of couse 1.2 million for that theatre. Personally I think that 1.2 million could be much better spent keeping the libraryies open longer(perhaps then I could learn how to spell).


Lower the taxes on big events and do a better job at attracting them. Many large rock concerts don't even come to Toronto anymore, not sure if it is boarder issues or the insanly high taxes Toronto charges them. I'm sure it's not just rock concerts that are affected by this.

[Evil Baby]

And if there are no collectors, nobody is watching the cameras. TTC will become the crime paradise that way. Now, imagine the computer on a certain train failing (don't tell me that there are perfect computers... they all crash every once in a while). Subway accidents are lethal. Imagine you riding a train one day and it crashes into the train in front of it because of the "automated system". Heck, why don't we just make everything automated... like for example, why do we still need pilots for the planes? Planes should fly themselves. I am not meaning to sound like a troll or anything but I don't see how your plan is realistic.

There is a reason you have many failsafes including somebody in the camera room who can cut the power to the tracks and warn any other trains in the area. There would still be people around just no need for so many of them. Proper failsafes would more than do the job.

[tsehou]

The TTC already has one route that is almost fully automated, but it has many many problems. It gets maintenance every year.

Yet the same system working in Vancouver runs generally very well, with little disruptions.

Just so you know I'm talking about the Scarborough RT. It's manned, but that person just closes the doors, the computers drive the trains.

Same system is fully automated in Vancouver as the Sky Train.

Most people blame the problems due to our severe weather which causes problems.

[ferkel]

we need a new mayor .. a mayor for the people!

[Firebot]

The TTC already has one route that is almost fully automated, but it has many many problems. It gets maintenance every year.

Yet the same system working in Vancouver runs generally very well, with little disruptions.

Just so you know I'm talking about the Scarborough RT. It's manned, but that person just closes the doors, the computers drive the trains.

Same system is fully automated in Vancouver as the Sky Train.

Most people blame the problems due to our severe weather which causes problems.

The Scarborough RT is manned only because the union requires it to be. The whole line can be fully automated, but the city needs to waste money on union workers.

[dx1997]

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but I found it on that pamphlet that is on TTC vehicles.

Here are the confirmed routes that may be cancelled COMPLETELY:

5 AVENUE RD
160 BATHURST NORTH
8 BROADVIEW
120 CALVINGTON
42A CUMMER – East of Kennedy Road
127 DAVENPORT
105 DUFFERIN NORTH
26 DUPONT
32D EGLINTON WEST – On Emmett Avenue
139 FINCH EAST
33 FOREST HILL
135 GERRARD
14 GLENCAIRN
169 HUNTINGWOOD
107 KEELE NORTH (C/D/F) – Via Bakersfield Street
30 LAMBTON – On High Park Avenue
52C LAWRENCE WEST – Via Benton Road/Culford Road
162 LAWRENCE-DONWAY
59C MAPLE LEAF – Via Benton Road/Culford Road
132 MILNER
74 MT PLEASANT
167 PHARMACY NORTH
80 QUEENSWAY – East of Humber Loop
109 RANEE – North of Lawrence West Station
73B ROYAL YORK – On LaRose Avenue
76B ROYAL YORK SOUTH – On Grand Avenue
86D SCARBOROUGH – Via Beechgrove Drive
85 SHEPPARD EAST – Between Don Mills and Sheppard-Yonge stations
115 SILVER HILLS
10 VAN HORNE
224 VICTORIA PARK NORTH
69 WARDEN SOUTH – Clockwise via Birchmount Road
55 WARREN PARK
90 VAUGHAN – West of Oakwood Avenue
98 WILLOWDALE-SENLAC
96C WILSON – On Thistledown Boulevard and Tandridge Crescent
97 YONGE

Here are the routes that will be cut back:

61 AVENUE RD NORTH – No service after 7 p.m. Monday-Friday. No service Saturday/Sunday/holiday.


11 BAYVIEW – No off-peak service north of Sheppard Ave. No service north of Sunnybrook after 10 p.m. Monday-Friday or after 7 p.m. Saturday/Sunday/holiday.


83 JONES – No service after 7 p.m.


52 LAWRENCE WEST – No service west of Scarlett Rd after 10 p.m. Saturday/Sunday/holiday.


130 MIDDLEFIELD – No service 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. Monday-Friday. No service Sundays.


62 MORTIMER – No off-peak service. Would operate Monday-Friday rush hours only.


103 MT PLEASANT NORTH – No off-peak service. Would operate Monday-Friday rush hours only.


65 PARLIAMENT – No service after 7 p.m.


67 PHARMACY – No service after 7 p.m. Saturdays. No service Sunday/holiday.


48 RATHBURN – No service after 7 p.m.


82 ROSEDALE – No off-peak service.
Would operate Monday-Friday rush hours only.


78 ST ANDREWS – No off-peak service.
Would operate Monday-Friday rush hours only.


24A VICTORIA PARK – No service west of Consumers Rd 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. Monday-Friday.


112C WEST MALL – No service north of Eglinton Ave 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. Monday-Friday.


165 WESTON RD NORTH – No service north of Finch Ave after 7 p.m. Sunday/holiday.


91 WOODBINE – No service north of St. Clair Avenue after 7 p.m. Monday-Friday or Saturday/Sunday/holiday.

Enjoy!

[Evil Baby]

If the TTc can't afford it then it's something that has to be looked at. My concern is, with all this cutting back of shifts are they actually going to lay anybody off. From the impression I got, nobody would loose thier job. If that's the case, then what is the point?

[woodstock827]

The government really have to completely dissolve the TTC and restructure from the ground up... TTC workers get ridiculously high wages for doing minimal work and the Union isn't exactly helping the whole TTC.... they just help keep the slackers in TTC... Fresh grad engineer gets over $60k for the first year or so, then jumps to like $80k... what kind of company pays that?

Until the current TTC is restructured, it'll never get enough money no matter how much they up the price and how much the government gives them... sadly I don't see it happening anytime soon though...

[gilboman]

If the TTc can't afford it then it's something that has to be looked at. My concern is, with all this cutting back of shifts are they actually going to lay anybody off. From the impression I got, nobody would loose thier job. If that's the case, then what is the point?

ummm...to cut labor hours? most TTC workers are paid by hour, if you cut back shifts, then you pay less in labor hours:lol:

[YnD]

We shouldn't be complaining...

In NY/NJ...its $10-$15 to use their train one way.

[The_Professor]

We shouldn't be complaining...

In NY/NJ...its $10-$15 to use their train one way.


Perhaps, but at least their subway system isn't a joke.

[Shaner]

We shouldn't be complaining...

In NY/NJ...its $10-$15 to use their train one way.

Not the Subways it's not. The Subways are $7 for an unlimited day pass in all of NYC. Considering there's few places in the city that the Subway doesn't go, it's a great deal.

[charliebrown]

better get ur tokens folks!


TRANSPORTATION REPORTER
TTC commissioners today voted a 15-cent hike on a single fare or token and $3 a month for a Metropass in an effort to avoid the longstanding pain of more overcrowding on its already over-capacity routes.
The increase will take place Nov. 4 and will bring the price of a ticket or token bought in bulk to $2.25.

The cost of a monthly Metropass will go up to $109.


http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/255880

[YnD]

Not the Subways it's not. The Subways are $7 for an unlimited day pass in all of NYC. Considering there's few places in the city that the Subway doesn't go, it's a great deal.

I know I was referring to the train...specifically from NJ to NY. But dam...there train goes from NJ to NY or even to Philly, Boston... its a dam good system...

The stations... Port Authority and Penn are run like airports... crazy transit system... very well organized... gets you where you want to go...and on time....