To or not to engine braking

[Avatar]

Some say engine braking will damage the clutch/flywheel etc.. I've been doing this and my first brake pad replaced at 160k. It's mainly about stability. More stable/controll when doing this.

Do you guys, when doing engine braking, half way depress the clutch or fully engage it? I found out engage half way stops faster (sound from engine and feel from the steering).

Do you engine brake using first gear? First gear engine brake at low speed allows me to bring it to a full stop.

Cons for engine braking - cause damage to clutch in the long run. Confuse rear cars when doing this as the brake light doesn't come on. I actually got rear end twice when stopping. First time was two months after I got the car.

But it's fun and more controll. Especially in winter or cornering.

[GoiNGPoSTaL]

Some say engine braking will damage the clutch/flywheel etc.. I've been doing this and my first brake pad replaced at 160k. It's mainly about stability. More stable/controll when doing this.

Do you guys, when doing engine braking, half way depress the clutch or fully engage it? I found out engage half way stops faster (sound from engine and feel from the steering).

Do you engine brake using first gear? First gear engine brake at low speed allows me to bring it to a full stop.

Cons for engine braking - cause damage to clutch in the long run. Confuse rear cars when doing this as the brake light doesn't come on. I actually got rear end twice when stopping. First time was two months after I got the car.

But it's fun and more controll. Especially in winter or cornering.

;)

[Asad_A203]

I think its alot cheaper to replace brake pads than a clutch. Engine braking is probably only needed for track racing and semi drivers where conventional braking just wont cut it, using it on the street car for day to day is a bit of an overkill. I know its fun and all, I just wouldnt engine brake all the time. I really some times want to do heel and toe too, just so I won't lock up my brakes but damn that ABS and not letting me do the extra work (haha).

Pros:
Saves gas
Saves brake pads

Cons:
Prematurely wears clutch/tranny
Idiots behind you won't know your braking

[phucyall]

Engine braking from time to time is a great idea, but you have to do it right. Engine braking requires you to release the clutch, downshift, match the revs and finally engage the clutch. Then you let go of the accelerator and let the engine slow the car down. This produces no more wear on the clutch then normal stopping.

Now what you guys are talking about seems more like what I call "clutch braking". This is where you literally use the clutch instead of the brake. Engine remains at idle rpm and you try to get the car and the engine to match rotation with the clutch alone. This is huge stress on the clutch, but it is more effective then what I described above. Most people do call both of these methods "engine breaking", but one of them uses only the engine while the other relies on the engine but uses the clutch mostly.

If you know heal-tow-downshift it makes for much better engine braking. I usually only do proper engine braking, and only when I need to slow down gradually. Like coming off the highway, when I hit the offramp I downshift to slow down gradually. When I need to brake harder I just use the brakes (or both brake and engine with the heal-tow-downshift).

[Action Jackson]

For me engine braking only on the track to establish car balance. I may do a bit of this in winter streetdriving too for the same reasons.

On the streets I use the brakes. Pads are way easier to replace esp. if I do it myself.

[bembem]

Some say engine braking will damage the clutch/flywheel etc.. I've been doing this and my first brake pad replaced at 160k. It's mainly about stability. More stable/controll when doing this.

Do you guys, when doing engine braking, half way depress the clutch or fully engage it? I found out engage half way stops faster (sound from engine and feel from the steering).

Do you engine brake using first gear? First gear engine brake at low speed allows me to bring it to a full stop.

Cons for engine braking - cause damage to clutch in the long run. Confuse rear cars when doing this as the brake light doesn't come on. I actually got rear end twice when stopping. First time was two months after I got the car.

But it's fun and more controll. Especially in winter or cornering.

Wow... had a long response but deleted it.

Please take some manual driving lessons as you are NOT a safe driver.

I will say one thing tho. WHY THE HELL ARE YOU SHIFTING IN TO FIRST GEAR AT 5-10KMPH JUST TO STOP? Use the damn brakes and stop causing accidents. /rant

[Sylvestre]

As someone else stated, once you match the revs properly on the downshift, there's no harm. And unfortunately you have to realize that the majority of drivers out there have never driven a manual as such, they have no idea how it works. You shouldn't rely on downshifting if it's not fully safe (i.e. the car behind you won't have time to realize you slowed down without the brake light going on as well as reversing on a downhill without the back-up lights going on).

[bembol]

I hate when drivers constantly tap their brakes, this what causes traffic/ripple effect! Learn how to control your car and take your foot off the gas whether it's Standard/Automatic.


I'm sure I'll get a few laughs, I do it but I also turn ON my lights. LOL So it's my fault that I get Rear Ended because the dipshit behind me doesn't know when to brake?

[Chr1s]

I can't believe you're asking if it's safe to keep doing this, considering you've been rear ended twice already:!:

You should be getting a ticket for doing this on the road (just like you do when your brake lights do not work). :evil: You want FUN, go to a track.

[afzan]

I'd rather replace my brakes than put more wear on my clutch/engine...

[chickenbones]

Like other have mentioned, if you rev match then there's no additional harm to the clutch.

Also if you rev match the car won't suddenly slow down either, it's more gradual.

[Avatar]

I can't believe you're asking if it's safe to keep doing this, considering you've been rear ended twice already:!:

You should be getting a ticket for doing this on the road (just like you do when your brake lights do not work). :evil: You want FUN, go to a track.

I didn't do it intentionally or shifting down abruptly which will hurt the tranny. So the problem was they are following too close (ticket). They all happend in broad daylight and not in night time. A skillful driver should look for the distance between the cars and not the light. I'm sorry but they have to go back to driving school.
Have you seen signs to leave 2 car spaces before yours on hwy before.

[JayTee1]

Should an automatic car engine be broken in as well?

[mrlooneytoon]

Should an automatic car engine be broken in as well?

LOL? :cheesygri

[bionicbadger]

Brakes are cheap to replace, a transmission is really expensive to fix/replace...

[afici0nad0]

Some say engine braking will damage the clutch/flywheel etc.. I've been doing this and my first brake pad replaced at 160k. It's mainly about stability. More stable/controll when doing this.

Do you guys, when doing engine braking, half way depress the clutch or fully engage it? I found out engage half way stops faster (sound from engine and feel from the steering).

Do you engine brake using first gear? First gear engine brake at low speed allows me to bring it to a full stop.

Cons for engine braking - cause damage to clutch in the long run. Confuse rear cars when doing this as the brake light doesn't come on. I actually got rear end twice when stopping. First time was two months after I got the car.

But it's fun and more controll. Especially in winter or cornering.

i'm not sure what you mean by depressing the clutch halfway? when i'm downshifting (or any shifting), i shift pressing the clutch all the way.

no, i don't engine break to 1st gear. coming to a full stop, 2nd gear will be the lowest, then it'll be N - full stop.

[thephenom]

First brake pads at 160k km!? Do you not use the brakes at all? Either that or you're the guy who's holding up all the traffic cruising to the red lights at 20km/h while being physically 50m away from the light.

[JayTee1]

LOL? :cheesygri

I'm serious.

[Action Jackson]

Should an automatic car engine be broken in as well?

No.

I toasted a civic auto tranny that way.

That's why I drive manual now.

[KevC]

I just leave it in gear till it falls below a certain RPM (round 1500 or so) then I shift into neutral. Of course using the brakes the whole time.

[CanAm]

Using engine braking will not wear the clutch unless it is slipping. A clutch is only used for starting and shifting, don't use it as another brake. Shift don and let the engine slow you.

[Ironballz]

Driving a manual transmission includes knowing how to brake with the engine properly. Like others have stated, you need to rev match. This is a must to prevent clutch wear.

Yes, engine braking can result in some idiot rear ending you because they're only paying attention to the lights of the car in front of them rather than traffic itself but one of the major benefits of engine braking is it ensures you are always in the right gear. Being in the right gear will allow you to take off quickly when needed, ex. to quickly take off when you see an idiot flying into your rear :razz:

You could also tap your brake lightly just enough to let the car behind you know you're coming to a stop and be prepared to stop.

Engine braking in the winter has definitely saved my butt at least a few times in the winter.

[corrupt123]

I think its alot cheaper to replace brake pads than a clutch. Engine braking is probably only needed for track racing and semi drivers where conventional braking just wont cut it, using it on the street car for day to day is a bit of an overkill. I know its fun and all, I just wouldnt engine brake all the time. I really some times want to do heel and toe too, just so I won't lock up my brakes but damn that ABS and not letting me do the extra work (haha).

Pros:
Saves gas
Saves brake pads

Cons:
Prematurely wears clutch/tranny
Idiots behind you won't know your braking

I'm sorry, but I have to call you out. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this wont actually save you gas. Unless the computer realizes what you're doing and shuts off the injectors (which might actually be the case in newer cars) then engine braking would actually use more gas, no? If you drop it in neutral and let the engine idle and use the brakes to stop, you're moving along with the engine @ 800 RPM. If you use the engine to brake, than your engine is revving up in the thousands, and slowly decreasing. More rev's = more gas consumed.

Secondly, the "idiots" behind you not knowing you're braking? While I agree people should pay attention and leave a safe amount of space, you can't possibly think that slowing down a significant amount, especially stopping, without turning on the brake lights is safe. Thats just... I cant even put into words how stupid it sounds. If the person does predict what you're doing (chance #1) and does leave enough space between you and them (chance #2) and does slam on their brakes before it's too late (chance #3) and does drive a light car/small car/have a recent brake job and thus has a car that can stop quickly (chance #4) then I'd say you're lucky to not be rear ended.

Honestly, the law says that if your break lights are burnt out or dont work, and you're rear ended, then you're at fault. That said, it should be 100% the same for engine braking. By all means, I totally condone engine braking, but how difficult is it to rest your foot on the brake pedal? Thats all it takes to switch the lights on...

And on another note... Bembol is also right, please people, use your brakes only when necessary! This occures mostly on the highway, but pressing your brakes 99% of the time leads to a ripple, because people see brake lights and slam on their own. Personally, I avoid pressing the brakes if someone ahead of me taps theirs just to stop this ripple effect. (I leave a lot of space ahead of me though, so I can afford it. Dont get in an accident following my advice...) So... Leave enough space between you and the car in front of you, and if someone changes lanes between the two of you, take your foot off the accelerator and put space between you and him that way. Dont slam the brakes!

[squireglig]

Engine braking from time to time is a great idea, but you have to do it right. Engine braking requires you to release the clutch, downshift, match the revs and finally engage the clutch. Then you let go of the accelerator and let the engine slow the car down. This produces no more wear on the clutch then normal stopping.

Now what you guys are talking about seems more like what I call "clutch braking". This is where you literally use the clutch instead of the brake. Engine remains at idle rpm and you try to get the car and the engine to match rotation with the clutch alone. This is huge stress on the clutch, but it is more effective then what I described above. Most people do call both of these methods "engine breaking", but one of them uses only the engine while the other relies on the engine but uses the clutch mostly.

If you know heal-tow-downshift it makes for much better engine braking. I usually only do proper engine braking, and only when I need to slow down gradually. Like coming off the highway, when I hit the offramp I downshift to slow down gradually. When I need to brake harder I just use the brakes (or both brake and engine with the heal-tow-downshift).

Yeah, it seems he isn't downshifting properly... get ready for some clutch slip!

I engine brake alot as well (never into first)... most commonly on an off-ramp... city driving IMO it's not worth it (60kph and under). I don't notice a difference in gas mileage, alot of that is affected by load, which you're not giving much of (revving in neutral), so i doubt it really makes a differnce.

Make sure you're engine braking correctly as described above (you might want to double-clutch as well, but that's a whole 'nother debate :) ).

//EDIT: I also dont engine brake when someone is right behind me... that leads to problems for sure. People should pay more attention, but even still..

[Asad_A203]

I'm sorry, but I have to call you out. I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that this wont actually save you gas. Unless the computer realizes what you're doing and shuts off the injectors (which might actually be the case in newer cars) then engine braking would actually use more gas, no? If you drop it in neutral and let the engine idle and use the brakes to stop, you're moving along with the engine @ 800 RPM. If you use the engine to brake, than your engine is revving up in the thousands, and slowly decreasing. More rev's = more gas consumed.

Secondly, the "idiots" behind you not knowing you're braking? While I agree people should pay attention and leave a safe amount of space, you can't possibly think that slowing down a significant amount, especially stopping, without turning on the brake lights is safe. Thats just... I cant even put into words how stupid it sounds. If the person does predict what you're doing (chance #1) and does leave enough space between you and them (chance #2) and does slam on their brakes before it's too late (chance #3) and does drive a light car/small car/have a recent brake job and thus has a car that can stop quickly (chance #4) then I'd say you're lucky to not be rear ended.

Honestly, the law says that if your break lights are burnt out or dont work, and you're rear ended, then you're at fault. That said, it should be 100% the same for engine braking. By all means, I totally condone engine braking, but how difficult is it to rest your foot on the brake pedal? Thats all it takes to switch the lights on...

And on another note... Bembol is also right, please people, use your brakes only when necessary! This occures mostly on the highway, but pressing your brakes 99% of the time leads to a ripple, because people see brake lights and slam on their own. Personally, I avoid pressing the brakes if someone ahead of me taps theirs just to stop this ripple effect. (I leave a lot of space ahead of me though, so I can afford it. Dont get in an accident following my advice...) So... Leave enough space between you and the car in front of you, and if someone changes lanes between the two of you, take your foot off the accelerator and put space between you and him that way. Dont slam the brakes!

When the car enters that higer rpm, you are not accelerating the car into that higher RPM ie. using gas, you are using the car momentum to enter the higher RPM. The extra RPM's are from the "road" if you can say that.

Taken from another guy so it makes more sense:

Say you have to push to jumpstart your car. What is happening? You push the car to get it going. When you pop the clutch the momentum of the car is transmitted to the pistons causing them to rise and fall (hopeful through the compression cycle and trip the spark plug). This isn’t using more gas and neither does engine braking.

Here is another similar example. In a hybrid, regenerative braking recharges the batteries, right? How does this work? It turns the kinetic energy of moving down the road back into electrical energy that is then restored to the battery, effect car slows down, and the battery is recharged. (According your “logic” regenerative braking would use MORE energy from the battery.)

Engine braking TAKES the energy of moving down the road and changes it to moving the pistons “up and down”. To put it very simply, it’s the energy it takes to move those pistons that works to slow the car down. Now instead of “making more gas” (as in the hybrid example) this work is lost to the engine as heat but it DOESN’T USE MORE GAS TO INCEASE THE RPMS caused by engine braking.

-Normal driving say is 2000 RPM. All from gas.
You accelerate (depress gas) 4000 RPM all from gas. (yes, this uses more gas than normal.)
- Engine braking: 4000 RPM. That’s 1000RPM from gas, 3000RPM from the car slowing.(net effect LESS GAS.) It’s less rather than the normal above because the computer in the car knows how much gas it needs and with engine braking it is senses it needs less.

Hope that explains it. But you are right on the subject of saving gas, it doesn't matter it will consume same amount. I was thinking about in terms of brakes still. For the issue of idiots behind you driving into your bumper, the car behind you should not be focused on the traffic signal but rather the car in front of them. I know that completely makes the brake light useless but a driver should be able to detect when a car is slowing down and they should still keep their distance accordingly.

[corrupt123]

I understand what you're saying, and you're right in terms of a hybrid... although it is a very bad comparison.

What I'm saying is that, even minimal, in theory it would use more gas unless the computer senses what you're doing and shuts off the injectors. Heres why.

If you're idling, the computer will only put out as much gas as necessary to keep the engine at 800 rpm. To make things easier, we'll say the car is idling at 1000 rpm.

So, say to idle, the computer puts out 50 mL of gas @ 1000 rpm.

If you engine brake, the engine is forced to speed up. Assume then, that the engine is revving to 3000 because you're slowing down. The computer doesn't feel an increased load, and so it continues to put out 50 mL of gas per 1000 RPM.

If you do the math, you will see that 50/1000 = 0.05 - That is to say, for every rotation of the crankshaft, 0.05 mL of cas is consumed. Since the engine is MECHANICAL and thus the components are LOCKED TOGETHER then more rotations of the crankshaft will result in more rotations of the camshaft. Thus, the valves will open more often, and gas will be consumed more oftan. Even if this gas is not being fired or used to produce energy, it is cycling through the engine because thats how engines are built. More engine rotation = more fuel flow, unless the flow is manually restricted by something like the computer...

So, like I said already, I'm pretty sure you'd actually end up consuming more gas. It wouldn't be a significant amount, probably not noticable, but definitly more than just braking with the engine at minimum RPM. The exception would be if the computer realizes what you're doing, and adjusts the cam timing and/or shuts off the injectors, as I already mentioned.

[BartBandy]

Secondly, the "idiots" behind you not knowing you're braking? While I agree people should pay attention and leave a safe amount of space, you can't possibly think that slowing down a significant amount, especially stopping, without turning on the brake lights is safe. Thats just... I cant even put into words how stupid it sounds. If the person does predict what you're doing (chance #1) and does leave enough space between you and them (chance #2) and does slam on their brakes before it's too late (chance #3) and does drive a light car/small car/have a recent brake job and thus has a car that can stop quickly (chance #4) then I'd say you're lucky to not be rear ended.

Honestly, the law says that if your break lights are burnt out or dont work, and you're rear ended, then you're at fault. That said, it should be 100% the same for engine braking. By all means, I totally condone engine braking, but how difficult is it to rest your foot on the brake pedal? Thats all it takes to switch the lights on...

My sentiments exactly.

[grant]

You could also tap your brake lightly just enough to let the car behind you know you're coming to a stop and be prepared to stop.
An excellent idea even with regular braking, when you suspect the driver behind you isn't paying attention.

For me engine braking only on the track to establish car balance. I may do a bit of this in winter streetdriving too for the same reasons.
What does 'establish car balance' mean in winter driving?

....
On public roads I cannot understand any value in engine braking except to prevent your brakes from overheating when rolling down a very long hill. (And this car balance issue which i'm confident will make sense)

[squireglig]

What does 'establish car balance' mean in winter driving?

I imagine he means engine braking is a safe way to help slow down the car without upsetting the balance / control. You wont lock up the wheels (if you don't have ABS), and it can help slow the car down faster without affecting handling too much. This is all, of course, with the disclaimer that you do it properly.... not rev matching / double clutching on the downshift can lead to very bad things, mainly loss of control (especially with RWD).

[russfest]

I think the OP is doing it wrong as well.. showing no brake lights and halfway engaging the clutch which means to me clutch slippage.

When I 'engine brake' I tend to down shift only once from the gear im in (unless Im going pretty fast) using the as required at the same time until Ive slowed down and I shift into neutral and use the brakes the rest of the way.

I however agree where others have said that the onus to notice the speed of traffic and slow/down, leave enough space to the person in front of you without brake lights.

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

Just get an auto. You can still engine brake, but no clutch to confuse you. :lol:

[chickenbones]

Just get an auto. You can still engine brake, but no clutch to confuse you. :lol:

Autos have clutch too. If you meant engine breaking by down shifting from D to 2 or 3 then you are doing even more harm to the tranny than if you had a manual.

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

1st gear on my car is labeled "B", for "engine Brake". :lol:

but yeah, probably not good for the tranny.

[KelticSlob]

What I'm saying is that, even minimal, in theory it would use more gas unless the computer senses what you're doing and shuts off the injectors. Heres why.


Wrong.

In modern cars, if you're traveling along in gear and take your foot off the gas, the car uses ZERO gasoline. The cars momentum is spinning the wheels, which feeds back through the drivetrain, keeping the engine at a high enough RPM not to stall. Also, I think you're assuming that engines use fuel based on how fast the RPM's are. This isn't true. If you're going up a hill at 3000rpm, you have to push the gas harder to go just as fast as if you were going down the hill at 3000rpm. This is called the 'load' the engine is under.

Think of the gas pedal as, quite literally, how much gas is sprayed into the engine. When the gas isn't being pushed, no gas is used EXCEPT at idle, when the cars ECU realizes that the engine is about to stall so it sprays a tiny bit of fuel into the cylinders to keep the engine idling.

As for the thread question, learn to heel-toe and theres no wear on clutch or brakes.

[Action Jackson]

What does 'establish car balance' mean in winter driving?

If either end of the car loses grip (due to road conditions, etc...) I use the throttle to control the car's balance.

[afzan]

Wrong.

In modern cars, if you're traveling along in gear and take your foot off the gas, the car uses ZERO gasoline. The cars momentum is spinning the wheels, which feeds back through the drivetrain, keeping the engine at a high enough RPM not to stall. Also, I think you're assuming that engines use fuel based on how fast the RPM's are. This isn't true. If you're going up a hill at 3000rpm, you have to push the gas harder to go just as fast as if you were going down the hill at 3000rpm. This is called the 'load' the engine is under.

Think of the gas pedal as, quite literally, how much gas is sprayed into the engine. When the gas isn't being pushed, no gas is used EXCEPT at idle, when the cars ECU realizes that the engine is about to stall so it sprays a tiny bit of fuel into the cylinders to keep the engine idling.

As for the thread question, learn to heel-toe and theres no wear on clutch or brakes.

my sentiments exactly.. with the car in gear and your foot off the gas, you use NO GAS.

[Avatar]

What I'm saying is that, even minimal, in theory it would use more gas unless the computer senses what you're doing and shuts off the injectors.

It actually works the other way. The gas pedal will activate the gas pump to pump the gas to cylinders. Spark will then burn the gas and expand to push the valve to move the car. Well. Engine braking releases the gas padal hence no gas wasted.
It's actually the momentum of the car forces the valves to move without burning gas in engine hence slow down the car without the need of braking. That's the idea of engine braking and it should save gas. It makes the car more stable in winter or cornering with more traction.
A good example is going downhill. RPM goes up but not consuming gas because the gas pedal is not depressed. When I say not consuming gas doesn't mean zero gas consumption but a little bit of gas to keep the engine from stalling as in idle.

[grant]

If either end of the car loses grip (due to road conditions, etc...) I use the throttle to control the car's balance.
So because your front wheels do not have traction, you must use only the rear wheels to slow your car. This is best done with engine braking on a RWD car. Am I correct?

[grant]

I imagine he means engine braking is a safe way to help slow down the car without upsetting the balance / control. You wont lock up the wheels..
Actually I know you can essentially lock up the drive wheels with engine braking (having frequently done so on my motorbike, which is easier because of the low weight + high compression engine)

But I do understand it's a useful method to bias your braking power to the rear wheels.

[Action Jackson]

So because your front wheels do not have traction, you must use only the rear wheels to slow your car. This is best done with engine braking on a RWD car. Am I correct?

No.

By either using more or less throttle I can vary the balance of the car, and the traction of the tires. This can be done regardless of which wheels do the driving.

[jdmkidd]

I dont engine break but on a turn I do the ritual 3rd to second with the revs matched.

[trucanuck]

I hate when drivers constantly tap their brakes, this what causes traffic/ripple effect! Learn how to control your car and take your foot off the gas whether it's Standard/Automatic.


No kidding, I see this every day on the 401, it kills me.... I just moved from Montreal and the drivers there DID NOT do this. I think it is because most cars in QC have their brake pedals removed.

[notanexpert]

I understand what you're saying, and you're right in terms of a hybrid... although it is a very bad comparison.

What I'm saying is that, even minimal, in theory it would use more gas unless the computer senses what you're doing and shuts off the injectors. Heres why.

If you're idling, the computer will only put out as much gas as necessary to keep the engine at 800 rpm. To make things easier, we'll say the car is idling at 1000 rpm.

So, say to idle, the computer puts out 50 mL of gas @ 1000 rpm.

If you engine brake, the engine is forced to speed up. Assume then, that the engine is revving to 3000 because you're slowing down. The computer doesn't feel an increased load, and so it continues to put out 50 mL of gas per 1000 RPM.

If you do the math, you will see that 50/1000 = 0.05 - That is to say, for every rotation of the crankshaft, 0.05 mL of cas is consumed. Since the engine is MECHANICAL and thus the components are LOCKED TOGETHER then more rotations of the crankshaft will result in more rotations of the camshaft. Thus, the valves will open more often, and gas will be consumed more oftan. Even if this gas is not being fired or used to produce energy, it is cycling through the engine because thats how engines are built. More engine rotation = more fuel flow, unless the flow is manually restricted by something like the computer...

So, like I said already, I'm pretty sure you'd actually end up consuming more gas. It wouldn't be a significant amount, probably not noticable, but definitly more than just braking with the engine at minimum RPM. The exception would be if the computer realizes what you're doing, and adjusts the cam timing and/or shuts off the injectors, as I already mentioned.

Absolutely you will consume slightly LESS gas when engine braking.
ALL cars since fuel injection was made standard shut off fuel to the engine COMPLETELY when the rpm is above roughly 1500 (it varies from car to car), and your foot is off the gas.
Therefore at the moment you're engine braking and the enigne is spinning above 1500 rpm, you will be consuming exactly 0 gas. Normal idle level fueling is restored when the engine spins down to below 1500, you can usually feel it when you're braking in low gears, for example in second. As the engine spins down you should notice a slight loss of braking effect as the rpm's go below 1500 when fueling is restored. Again, I stress that it is not 1500 rpm for all cars, some its 1200, some its 1700, but it is in that range.
Back in the carburator age, it was different, and engines did in fact consume a bit more gas under braking than under idle speed because the manifold vacuum was higher under braking, in effect sucking in a bit more fuel.

[corrupt123]

Yeah, so it's exactly what I said. Assuming the ECU doesn't shut off the injectors, you will consume more gas. As I suspected though, the ECU does infact shut off the injectors. Zero injection means zero consumption. Zero consumption = better fuel economy.

[Alvito]

Some say engine braking will damage the clutch/flywheel etc.. I've been doing this and my first brake pad replaced at 160k. It's mainly about stability. More stable/controll when doing this.

Do you guys, when doing engine braking, half way depress the clutch or fully engage it? I found out engage half way stops faster (sound from engine and feel from the steering).

Do you engine brake using first gear? First gear engine brake at low speed allows me to bring it to a full stop.

Cons for engine braking - cause damage to clutch in the long run. Confuse rear cars when doing this as the brake light doesn't come on. I actually got rear end twice when stopping. First time was two months after I got the car.

But it's fun and more controll. Especially in winter or cornering.

thats a good reason not to do it.

[Desolatax]

This thread makes me miss driving standard...

[JAGpilot]

Idiots behind you won't know your braking

So if some cheap-ass wants to try and save a few bucks by engine braking and I rear end him because I didn't see brake lights go on I'm an idiot?

[grant]

So if some cheap-ass wants to try and save a few bucks by engine braking and I rear end him because I didn't see brake lights go on I'm an idiot?
not necessarily an idiot... but a bad driver, because you are tailgating too close and/or not paying attention.

[trueno92]

Some say engine braking will damage the clutch/flywheel etc.. I've been doing this and my first brake pad replaced at 160k. It's mainly about stability. More stable/controll when doing this.


it wears out the clutch faster since the fibers of the clutch are used to being 'pulled' with the engine pushing the clutch clockwise (for arguments sake), however when ur loading the transmission and pushing on the flywheel, ur clutch fibers are being torn in the opposite direction, accelerating wear - even at full engagement. the entire assembly is still rotating in the same direction, but the clutch is suddenly pushing the flywheel, not the otherway around. Not to mention your clutch system is being loaded more frequently since you are using it to brake (instead of your, brakes)


Do you guys, when doing engine braking, half way depress the clutch or fully engage it? I found out engage half way stops faster (sound from engine and feel from the steering).


ur doing this totally wrong. by you holding ur clutch halfway, ur tearing away at your clutch and frying your flywheel/pressureplate from all the friction. ur basically using your $1000-to-replace clutch, instead of $100-to-replace brakes, to slow down.


Do you engine brake using first gear? First gear engine brake at low speed allows me to bring it to a full stop.


if ur engine braking into first gear, prepare for accelerated clutch wear. this is totally not required in today's cars. Instead, you are coming to a completely uncontrolled stop. and no, you cannot modulate this gear on deaccerlation as well as you could say, your brakes. i wouldnt' be surprised if you did this, your car suddenly nose-dived and the guy behind you hit you.


Cons for engine braking - cause damage to clutch in the long run. Confuse rear cars when doing this as the brake light doesn't come on. I actually got rear end twice when stopping. First time was two months after I got the car.

But it's fun and more controll. Especially in winter or cornering.

No, you cannot modulate this gear on deaccerlation as well as you could say, your brakes. i wouldnt' be surprised if you did this, your car suddenly nose-dived and the guy behind you hit you since he had no idea why you were suddenly coming to an emergency stop 10ft away from a stopsign.

the only time u should need to engine brake is to just be in the correct gear to accelerate out of a corner or whereever you are slowing down for.

and btw its worst on fuel economy. why? well if you are downshifting correctly, u'd blip the throttle to rev-match. that blip is a temporary rich condition, and its gas you would not otherwise use if you pressed on that pedal to the LEFT of your gas.

courtesy of SHIFTERS.CA

Q: Should I downshift when I stop my car?

A: No.

In the old days of four-wheel drum brakes, cars were difficult to stop, so downshifting while braking was common to help brake and equalize the load to all wheels. Gearing down also helped reduce “brake fading.”

Today’s braking technology is highly advanced. Many vehicles have anti-lock systems with well-ventilated discs on all four wheels that require no assistance from the powertrain.

Braking causes your vehicle’s weight to shift forward, making it front-end heavy. As a result your front wheels may be doing 60% - 70% of the braking—almost twice as much as the rear wheels! Since most of today’s vehicles are front-wheel-drive, downshifting will distort the braking balance by shifting even more weight to the front.

CAUTION: Using gears instead of the brakes to slow your vehicle may cause severe damage to your powertrain. Braking with brakes is not only more effective, it’s a lot smarter…and cheaper!



OP, pls go to shifters.ca and learn to properly drive a manual transmission vehicle. takumi you are not.

[rchong]

In short,
engine = go
brakes = stop

When you engine brake, 100% of the braking force is on the driving wheels and cannot be modulated.

Improper downshifts/upshifts will cause excessive wear on the synchronizers so never force the shifter into gear.

The only example I can think of that engine braking is useful is when going downhill.

[Avatar]

courtesy of SHIFTERS.CA



Thanks for the info. First of all I've been driving stick for more than 15 years. And I don't shift from 5 to 2 or even 1. That for sure will hurt the clutch and cause the nose to dive. I rerely shift to 1st gear and occasionally just do it for fun at 10 or 15km/h only.
Lots of ppl know that engine braking makes the car more stable especially in winter time. I'm surprise that shifters.ca says not to use engine brake to stop the car. I feel more control and stable on snow to stop car using engine. So I'm kind of doubt about that.

[DragonZealot]

Using engine braking may make the driver feel more stable but actually it is a more unstable slow down because you are braking on 2 wheels only. You get much less traction compared if you use the brakes to slow down which can use the traction from all 4 wheels.

When you press your brake, the front wheels and rear wheels will get different porportion of the total braking force based on weight distribution and geometry of the suspension of the car. For front wheel drive cars the front wheels get quite a bit more. Because the brake force is balanced between the front and rear wheels, maximum traction is available from each of the 4 wheels. This provides the maximum stopping power and reduce the tendency that some wheels will lock up sooner.

If you press the brake hard enough while using engine braking, the driving wheels will start to lock up (pedal braking force + engine braking force > available traction) before the non-driving wheels. It will do the same thing if you shift to a low gear and release the clutch suddenly. This is where the instability is.

My friend at once downshifted on a wet downhill road and his car ended up spinning 180 degree, quite a scary experience. He said he released the clutch too fast and the car then spun.

If you still insist engine braking helps please make sure you do the rev match thing or release the clutch slowly.

For me I would do engine braking on a long decent to prvent brake overheating. I did this in the Rockies. However, I have not found a place in To that I need to do this though.

[buddhaboy12]

Hey guys, I learned how to drive standard yesterday. I sometimes use engine braking just to experience it... I like it, but might not do it when I'm driving in traffic. This is OT, but I was wondering if you are suppose to press the clutch with the brakes on a turn? I know I am suppose to slow down ad much as possible before the turn and accelerate through it, but sometimes I just don't slow down enough (my racing instincts ;)). So I was wondering if this is the proper way because I don't want to make a habit of it.
Also, I drive an RSX and shift at 3500 rev, but is it true that 3000 is the most economical? 3500 just feels more smooth.

Any help would be appreciated :).

[Action Jackson]

Hey guys, I learned how to drive standard yesterday. I sometimes use engine braking just to experience it... I like it, but might not do it when I'm driving in traffic. This is OT, but I was wondering if you are suppose to press the clutch with the brakes on a turn? I know I am suppose to slow down ad much as possible before the turn and accelerate through it, but sometimes I just don't slow down enough (my racing instincts ;)). So I was wondering if this is the proper way because I don't want to make a habit of it.
Also, I drive an RSX and shift at 3500 rev, but is it true that 3000 is the most economical? 3500 just feels more smooth.

Any help would be appreciated :).

Look up "Heel and Toe" and that's the reason to have the clutch in while braking. It's usually for slowing the car down and downshifting simultaneously.

Depending on the corner you are supposed to do as much braking in a straight line. Otherwise it's called trail braking if you do some braking in a turn.

It's not a good idea to downshift in the middle of the turn because you're upsetting the balance of the car, although in motorsports some people can get away with this if they know what they're doing.

[VorteC]

Keep in mind you can do this with cars that have an AT but with manumatic mode.

[Asad_A203]

Keep in mind you can do this with cars that have an AT but with manumatic mode.

I am not 100% on that, since most manumatics don't have downshift rev matching. Most just limit the top gear, but all gears below are still accessible. Some automotive makers have started including this including Acura/Lexus/BMW/Infiniti but it is still not widespread to all manumatics.

[Action Jackson]

Keep in mind you can do this with cars that have an AT but with manumatic mode.

I used to heel and toe on a "regular" auto. That's probably why that tranny is toast.

[Dough]

i do it in my 1999 Honduuhhhh Civic (auto) for fun.... doing 60 km/h in D4, drop it down into "2" and it locks it in 2nd gear.... slows down, bit of a jerk, but i am sure the fluid device/torque converter is good with this, because it is essentially a downshift... maybe a double downshift...

I do not have the option of locking the tranny into first gear and thus end up braking below 30 as it takes for ever to go from 30 to 0....

[TurboRegal]

I used to heel and toe on a "regular" auto. That's probably why that tranny is toast.

What? How can you heel-toe an automatic transmission?

[mudmojo]

If you press the brake hard enough while using engine braking, the driving wheels will start to lock up (pedal braking force + engine braking force > available traction) before the non-driving wheels. It will do the same thing if you shift to a low gear and release the clutch suddenly. This is where the instability is.

My friend at once downshifted on a wet downhill road and his car ended up spinning 180 degree, quite a scary experience. He said he released the clutch too fast and the car then spun.



This instability that you speak of is a bad thing on public roads. For some in motorsport circles, "weight shift" is dynamic friction's chief catalyst but for Joe Commuter on public roads... it's bad news if Joe has no idea how his car is going to react when he performs certain inputs.

So the story here... yet again... is driver training or lack of. Spend thousands if you need to but get a clue Joe.

And downshifting on a wet road, what does that have to do with the topic of this thread... nothing. Save that for the "I have no idea how to revmatch" thread please. ;)

[Action Jackson]

What? How can you heel-toe an automatic transmission?

Brake, blip throttle while still on brake, downshift.

The 94 civic had access to all the gears and in a straight gated shift pattern.

[TurboRegal]

Brake, blip throttle while still on brake, downshift.

The 94 civic had access to all the gears and in a straight gated shift pattern.

I still don't understand how a throttle blip would help if the gear is still engaged though?

It also shouldn't be heel toe on an automatic, left foot braking would be a better option.

[monkeyball]

ya i stll dont understand how you can heel toe in an AT.. i mean it shifts automatically whether its up or down so "blippin" will just shoot your car forward and just cause excessive wear on your brakes since youre on them. unless youre blipping in neutral then throwing it back into "D" lol, tell me how that goes, it sounds fancy

[sixer]

From Edmunds' editor in chief:

Myth #3: Use the clutch to save your brakes.

The clutch can theoretically be used as a braking device when slowing down, but this is more trouble than it's worth. First, if you're using the clutch to slow a car to "save your brakes" you better be really good with the clutch. If you're not smooth in your downshifting you'll be putting extra wear on the clutch.

Anyone want to guess which components cost more to replace — brake pads or a clutch plate? You're better off just pushing the clutch pedal in and leaving it in, and/or shifting to neutral, when slowing down in a manual-shift vehicle — especially if you aren't extremely smooth at downshifting. If you are smooth at downshifting and you feel like going through the trouble, you can constantly downshift and release the clutch as you slow down. But even doing that action smoothly won't make your brakes last appreciably longer.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/youngdrivers/articles/116920/article.html

[monkeyball]

well.. you can always engine brake in the gear that youre already in, and throw it into neutral when your revs drop like below ~800rpm (which im sure most people do) cause youer gonna slow down faster than if youre in neutral, no matter what gear your in. Obviously lower gear = slow down faster but you still get some engine braking in high gears. Save clutch, save brakes, save gas. It's probably the best compromise

[monkeyball]

Hey guys, I learned how to drive standard yesterday. I sometimes use engine braking just to experience it... I like it, but might not do it when I'm driving in traffic. This is OT, but I was wondering if you are suppose to press the clutch with the brakes on a turn? I know I am suppose to slow down ad much as possible before the turn and accelerate through it, but sometimes I just don't slow down enough (my racing instincts ;)). So I was wondering if this is the proper way because I don't want to make a habit of it.
Also, I drive an RSX and shift at 3500 rev, but is it true that 3000 is the most economical? 3500 just feels more smooth.

Any help would be appreciated :).

you can depress the clutch with the brakes down no problem, but it wouldnt make you get through the turn any faster unless youre heel toe-ing. If youre not you should either downshift before the turn, use some of your engine braking and go through the turn or downshift after youve completed the turn.. youre not really trying to shave milliseconds off your laptime so its best to just downshift before or after the turn.

As for your second question, in general the faster your engine spins the more gas it uses. Unless of course youre not stepping on the gas pedal in which case modern fuel injection uses no gas.

oh also, its not recommended to step on the clutch pedal and just hold its for extended periods of time, that just puts excess wear on your throwout bearings

btw it seems like some people are getting confused as to what engine braking is.. engine braking is not using the clutch to slow you down.. but rather the compression of the engine, so theoretically if you can do a perfect rev match you dont put any wear on your clutch. But its almost impossible to do a perfect rev match so youe gonna be putting a little wear on your clutch and a tiny bit more wear on your engine since you gotta up the revs.

As for the OP to engine brake or not? id say it depends on the situation/ your mood lol..

[squireglig]

i just had this thought...

if you were in a 4-spd auto on the highway and punched the gas (thereby downshifting for power), THEN shifted it into "3", limiting the car from going back into the 4th gear, and let off the gas.. would this be a possible downshift without damaging the automatic transmission?

I have no idea how autos work and have always driven manual.. but i'm curious to know.

[Lauzy]

i just had this thought...

if you were in a 4-spd auto on the highway and punched the gas (thereby downshifting for power), THEN shifted it into "3", limiting the car from going back into the 4th gear, and let off the gas.. would this be a possible downshift without damaging the automatic transmission?

I have no idea how autos work and have always driven manual.. but i'm curious to know.

Yeah, you can do this as long as your timing is right, or even better you can downshift into 3, and as soon as you do that, punch it while the tranmission is shifting and it will accelerate and hold in 3rd.

[monkeyball]

Yeah, you can do this as long as your timing is right, or even better you can downshift into 3, and as soon as you do that, punch it while the tranmission is shifting and it will accelerate and hold in 3rd.

all sounds kind of unnecessary but good to know lol