Honda Fit vs Pontiac Wave vs Suzuki Swift vs Nissa Versa vs other small hatches

[JetLi]

Hi Everyone,

I need some input - I don't know much about any of these cars - so I thought I could get some input from everyone.

So my girlfriend's lease on her Sunfire is up and she is considering the buyout or getting a new car. If she gets a new car, the price is a factor as we're saving for a place of our own and of course insurance will help that factor. She loves the little hatchbacks: Versa, Fit, Yaris, Swift, Wave, etc...I already drive a recently purchased Protege 5, but she wanted the Echo Hatchback when she got the sunfire, but it was out of her price range, I think all of these might be okay in the 4-5 year lease range, but I'm not too familiar with any of them. We figure we want to keep the car lease price in the $200-250/month - the lower the better, but performance, maintenance all plays a factor. For example, the Versa apparently has 12,000km maintenance checks.

She has to have an automatic, A/C and power windows and locks would be nice. CD player is a bonus, but not a necessity - which of the smaller hatchback cars do you think is best and why? Mileage isn't a big deal since she only lives 7km away from her office and we drive my P5 most of the time on the weekends.

If anyone has a cost perspective or know where to get a good price, I'd be interested in talking and getting more information. Thanks in advance.

[onecoolloser]

Hi Everyone,

I need some input - I don't know much about any of these cars - so I thought I could get some input from everyone.

So my girlfriend's lease on her Sunfire is up and she is considering the buyout or getting a new car. If she gets a new car, the price is a factor as we're saving for a place of our own and of course insurance will help that factor. She loves the little hatchbacks: Versa, Fit, Yaris, Swift, Wave, etc...I already drive a recently purchased Protege 5, but she wanted the Echo Hatchback when she got the sunfire, but it was out of her price range, I think all of these might be okay in the 4-5 year lease range, but I'm not too familiar with any of them. We figure we want to keep the car lease price in the $200-250/month - the lower the better, but performance, maintenance all plays a factor. For example, the Versa apparently has 12,000km maintenance checks.

She has to have an automatic, A/C and power windows and locks would be nice. CD player is a bonus, but not a necessity - which of the smaller hatchback cars do you think is best and why? Mileage isn't a big deal since she only lives 7km away from her office and we drive my P5 most of the time on the weekends.

If anyone has a cost perspective or know where to get a good price, I'd be interested in talking and getting more information. Thanks in advance.

I would say Honda Fit or Nissan Versa. Japanese reliability.

I've been hearing many good things about the Fit and the Versa. Apparently they're both fun to drive and good on mileage.

Personally, i'd drive those two cars and choose.

[JetLi]

I like Japanese reliability too, but I been hearing a lot of good things about the Wave/Swift (same car apparently?) - and I'd like to have my homework done (which is where this whole RFD community comes into play) before we go test drive them all this weekend.

One more thing - Finance/lease rate will also come into play as a factor here - keep in mind that Price is a factor. Thanks again everyone!

[Jayhoo]

Don't take my opinion for anything more than face value, heck it may even be incorrect. As far as the swift+ and the wave, I believe they're the same car if not for a few visual stylings. I have 2 friends who actually own '05 swifts, and haven't really had too many issues with them. I don't think this would be an issue for your gf, but if she plans to mod the car, good luck. I spent hours struggling with parts that are GLUED together, where clamps should have been.

The Fit has been getting some pretty good reviews in regards to its fuel economy, handling. Haven't heard too much more about it, but I actually wanted to check this car out myself.

The Versa, along with the Yaris were recently tested for braking distance and handling in wet and dry conditions - I need to find that article again. Anyway, the Versa did ok in the tests but ranks poorly amongst other cars in it's class for fuel efficiency. The Yaris on the other hand scored poorly in all three tests, but is good on gas.

Of the lot, I believe only the Versa and the Fit (naturally the largest/boxiest of the group) scored "adequate" or higher in side and frontal impact testing. Again, this is all off the top of my head, and lord knows I need some coffee in me still.

[rfdrfd]

If price is a factor, then don't even bother going Japanese. But be aware that you may get more problems later, because Pontiac isn't known for its reliability factor there.

How much is insurance for all of these models ? Ask and post it.

[JetLi]

One last thing - I left it open with "other small hatchbacks" in case anyone knows of any other models that we should be considering, your input is all valuable to us. Anyone who owns one, I'd love to hear your opinions on your experiences with your car -- especially if it's within the last few years!

[VivienM]

If price is a factor, then don't even bother going Japanese. But be aware that you may get more problems later, because Pontiac isn't known for its reliability factor there.

Keep in mind the Wave is a fake Pontiac. It's designed and built in Korea by GM Daewoo, just like the Aveo.

Whether that makes it more or less reliable than a true North American-designed and built GM car is a good question.

[onecoolloser]

++ you also might like the stereo of the Fit. It's pretty slick and modern.

[bionicbadger]

city golf? with automatic and AC still under $20K

[JetLi]

RFDRFD: While price is a factor, as long as it's within the budget, we can deal with it. To update everyone with some insurance quotes, I've put in a call and got the following numbers.

Things to note: I'm a little older than my gf (3.5 years) - so while we're both 6 stars, I have a longer clean track record, no tickets, no accidents in 12 years for me - I guess about 7-8 years for her. She's got her own insurance and lives downtown Toronto, I live in Brampton, so I expect her rates to be about double mine by the time you factor everything in location and age, etc.... These quotes are for me and assuming that I add a 2nd car to my name (meaning, I also get a 5% discount for multiple cars)

To the quotes:

Honda Fit LX - $1324/yr
Nissan Versa S - 5 Door - $1324/yr
Pontiac Wave - $1361/yr
Suzuki Swift S - $1414/yr.

These quotes are with TD Meloche Monnex and with a group rate (my University Alumni has a deal with them). For the arguments sake, I have gone with the following insurance items.

$500 deductible for Collision
$1,000,000 liability
Estimated car values - $18,000 + tax (I started with the fit and she just assumed they were all the same price) - Not sure how much of a difference that makes.

We figure if her insurance and and car payments are about $500/month combined, we'd be okay with that. Thanks again.

[onecoolloser]

city golf? with automatic and AC still under $20K

Don't VW's have electrical problems?-

[thephenom]

Fit gets my vote, drove one before, and quite impressed with the drive, interior was nicely put together and very roomy.

[rfdrfd]

Thanx for the quotes.

Wow, the Jap ones are cheaper even. So then I'd definitely say, save up and go for the Fit. Or Versa. Personally, Honda is above Nissan in my books, (I drove a Honda and Acura, so take my opinion as biased). My famly has owned many Corollas and Camry's before as well.

I say go for the Fit. Reliability, Honda Engine, re-sale value.

[ashhabib]

Go for either a Honda Fit or a Ford Focus. They're the most reliable, the most fun to drive, and are the only 2 to be recommended by Consumer Reports

[nofear_102]

Did you look at the Rio5 from Kia? Slick little cars and priced well. Don't let the name fool you, the Kia looked much sturdier then its american counterparts (Wave / Optra 5)

[SkiD]

Hatchback review

http://drivingtelevision.com/index.php?epID=403

[bionicbadger]

Don't VW's have electrical problems?-

Its brand new, under warranty for 4 years.

[JetLi]

SkiD - The video item #403 - 2007 Subcompact Review sure opened up some other options....I'll have to talk to her about the Kia Rio5 as well! We'll have to go test drive that one too!

http://drivingtelevision.com/index.php?epID=403

Anyone own a Honda Fit, Kia Rio5 have any input compared to this video? I was surprised to see Yaris rank so poorly!

[ItemFinder]

By the way, I love Driving Television.

[notanexpert]

I definitely vote for the Fit. Resale value will be better than any of the others. Avoid the Swift/Aveo/Wave. They are Korean junk, all will most likely be well for the first 5-8 years and after that they can't hold a candle to a Honda or Toyota. That's why there is a drastic deifference in resale values at that age.

[afong56]

yaris hb

ce model with c package and auto will fit your requirements

[Narci]

I just had a chance to drive a Versa (rental) for a week in Toronto and to Montreal. Here's my take on the car.

First off, it's a 2007 Versa with 15,000 km on it. Looks like the only options on it was automatic (unless AC, CD, power windows and doors is an option).

The car seem to have power until you turn on the AC but that's the case with any car in this category and small engine.

The car seems pretty solid, no rattles and the suspension was good on comfort and sportiness.

Took 1 tank of gas driving from TO to Montreal with the AC on travelling avg speed of 140 km/hr. I'm not sure the specs but i'm sure it's a small tank since it only takes abour $37-$40 to fill the tank on regular.

My only gripes about the car is that it's unstable on the highways if there are crosswinds. Could be because the car is pretty tall. It also has no center arm rest, maybe it's an option. Also hate the way the reclining seat latch is on the right side of the drive (left side for the passenger).

Other then that....decent rental car.

[JetLi]

Narci: That's the kind of input I am looking for. Just a quick question, since Toronto and Montreal are both so big, can you be a little more precise on the appproximate distance? I know the drive up to Montreal is about 580km, but depending on which side of Toronto and which side of Montreal you visit, that can go down to about 520km or up to 650km, big difference on a 40L tank of gas!

Some how, I suspect that 140km/hr with AC might be pushing the limits of the car with respect to the power, how was the acceleration from 60 to 110? Was it smooth and did it feel okay with the AC going? If that's smooth, that is important to know for me.

[Narci]

Narci: That's the kind of input I am looking for. Just a quick question, since Toronto and Montreal are both so big, can you be a little more precise on the appproximate distance? I know the drive up to Montreal is about 580km, but depending on which side of Toronto and which side of Montreal you visit, that can go down to about 520km or up to 650km, big difference on a 40L tank of gas!

Some how, I suspect that 140km/hr with AC might be pushing the limits of the car with respect to the power, how was the acceleration from 60 to 110? Was it smooth and did it feel okay with the AC going? If that's smooth, that is important to know for me.

I filled up at Markham Road, just north of the 401, Petro canada i think. Then I had to refill just 20 minutes outside of downtown Montreal.

Power wise, it's sluggish 60-110 with the AC on. It's decent without the AC but you can't expect much from this class of car.

The bad thing is that the car is tall and you can feel crosswinds pushing the car left and right...almost like driving my parents Sienna.

[onecoolloser]

I filled up at Markham Road, just north of the 401, Petro canada i think. Then I had to refill just 20 minutes outside of downtown Montreal.

Power wise, it's sluggish 60-110 with the AC on. It's decent without the AC but you can't expect much from this class of car.

The bad thing is that the car is tall and you can feel crosswinds pushing the car left and right...almost like driving my parents Sienna.

And remember...this is from a guy who used to own a Mercedes-Benz C36 AMG... lol =)

But it probably was sluggish, small engine..

BTW, What car do you drive now Narci?

[Wall Man]

I ended up buying a Fit for my wife. Here were my thoughts when we were deciding on the car....

We drove the Honda Fit first, so everything else had to match up. This might have been good or bad, depending on your view. We actually looked at the VW Rabbit and the City Golf. The City Golf is essentially the old Golf and my wife didn't really want to get the same car. The Rabbit is a bit bigger and that was a concern. There was a big wait list as well and no test drive.

The Fit was next. We jumped around playing with the folding seats which was really great. Plus the test drive pretty much sold us. I thought the car was smooth, maybe a bit buzzy, but what can you expect in an entry level. The stereo was good with a built in CD player with an Aux input jack. The 5 speed auto box is a big plus. My wife really liked how it drove and it had enough pep for her.

Next we looked at the Toyota Yaris. We took out a 2 dr. The first thing we noticed was fit and finish. The Honda was put together better, the interior was roomy and looked good. The Yaris looked very cheap. All these cars have plastic but I'm amazed at how some plastic seems richer than others. The driving capabilities of the Yaris was poor. It seemed to always hunt for a gear, this is the auto, and the noise level was louder than the Honda. Or it could have been just more annoying. Overall for a car that is priced about the same as the Honda it was no contest in our eyes.

Next we looked at the Nissan Versa. We did not take this one out for a test drive, although it was very tempting. In terms of equipment this car had it all. The interior was more upscale than all the other cars that we looked at. The one thing that stopped us from going further was the layout of the rear. The back seats do not fold down flat. When they are down there is a huge lip that reduces the overall hatch usage. As someone who truely appreciates the functionality of a hatchback this is a glaring design fault. I would love to fire someone over it.

The final car we looked at was the SX4. We took this out for a drive. I have to say it was well put together, lots of power, I do believe more than the fit. Again we took the auto, which really isn't that great. I bet the 5 speed manual would be the better choice. I think the main reason we didn't pick this car was the gear box. My wife liked the Honda drive and feel better.

So in my mind our rankings were the Fit then the SX4 then the rest. The Fit provided the best all around package. Excellent make for lower than average depreciation, higher than average reliability. Great driveability, very versitile seating arrangements and storage options. Plus it is the only one with a 5 spd auto box. So this fit the bill perfectly. As I mentioned before I wish I could have upsold my wife into the Sport model. It comes with a few more extras that would be good to have and I think the extra price would have been worth it. My wife is quite happy with her car, she's not too keen on the paddle shifters, doesn't care about 15" alloys or fog lights.

Now that we have owned the car since Janaury, I can provide some addtional insights. Just for the record, we bought the Fit LX with automatic transmition. (the LX now also includes cruise control which is not listed on the website) This model comes with power windows, A/C and power locks. I added the keyless entry and the cargo cover as an option. So be warned that the cargo cover is an additional $242 cost item. Pretty lame if you ask me.

The versatility is amazing. On one trip we purchased 2 folding chairs and a table plus some bedding and other items from IKEA and I bought a 32" LCD TV and easily put it all in the Fit.

I don't like the gas mileage. We do pretty much 95% city driving and that is a lot of idling plus quick start and stops. I'm happy if I can hit 10l/100 km. So this is far worse than the quoted mileage. Again I think it is our driving style that has the greatest effect as we owned a Civic before and the mileage was about the same. When there has been some longer trips on the freeway, gas mileage improves dramatically. My wife has no problems when she takes it for long drives and finds the power adequate.

I would buy another one and have no regrets on my choice. An improvement would be to have the ability to turn off the A/C unit when the ventelation is set to defog.

[Narci]

And remember...this is from a guy who used to own a Mercedes-Benz C36 AMG... lol =)

But it probably was sluggish, small engine..

BTW, What car do you drive now Narci?


Hahah yeah I know..But i use to work at a garage so I use to drive all sorts of cars from Yugos to Rolls Royce.

I have a NAVI TSX now. I Totalled the C36 in the winter a few years back. It could have been my savior as the C36's maintenence bills were racking up. The TSX was a perfect car for me...semi luxurious...gas saving (sorta)...and no problems after 2 years (knock on wood).

The Versa is on par with cars similiar to ir's class. Little sub 2.0 litre NA engines and AC don't go well together but what do you expect for that price?

[ES_Revenge]

The Pontiac Wave is a Suzuki Swift and the car is neither a Pontiac or a Suzuki, LOL. It's a Daweoo POS.

In fact all the cars on this list are POS, LOL.

So my "vote" is none of the above...

[ES_Revenge]

If price is a factor, then don't even bother going Japanese. But be aware that you may get more problems later, because Pontiac isn't known for its reliability factor there.
:rolleyes:

[taro-chan]

The Pontiac Wave is a Suzuki Swift and the car is neither a Pontiac or a Suzuki, LOL. It's a Daweoo POS.

In fact all the cars on this list are POS, LOL.

So my "vote" is none of the above...
My vote goes for Mini S =P
It's a small hatch..

[gzajay]

I've owned a Swift+ for about 18 months now and I still love it. Price was the the biggest plus for me... $16000 off the lot. AC/AT, all fees and taxes included .

I did Markham to Ottawa..within Ottawa for 3 days and back for $100 in gas (if that helps in anyway) but more recently I'm getting about 350km a tank (~$35)

It's not the most powerful car around, but I find it passes on the highway fairly well and rides smooth at high speeds.

Downsides --- wish I put in power locks and windows, but no biggy. I find the seats hard to clean due to the textured fabric.

Other than that...drives and looks just like a brand new car.

[march9]

I wish they have the European/Asian Suzuki Swift, much better than the Daewoo junk we are getting in NA lol.

http://www.nextcar.com.au/rt.i.suzuki.swift.silver.hawkesbury.JPG


Or you can wait for the Nissan Cube.It is so cute
http://www.conceptnissan.com/2000/2003_cube3-03.jpg

from your list I would go with Versa. It is essentially a Renault and sells very well in Europe. Second choice would be Fit. Does Fit have ESP? I would be concerned with a car that has high centre of gravity like Fit if it is not equipped with ESP.

[Samir]

Honda Fit is the best in class at everything except interior room (Versa) and mileage (Yaris). The Fit makes better use of its interior room though, and is genuinely the most fun car to drive in this segment. For me, it's Fit all the way.

If you want a bit more sporty but less practical, consider a Mazda3 hatch. Best looking car of the bunch and the best handler imho.

If you're looking @ Suzuki, forget the Swift it's a Korean POS. Their SX4 model is much more interesting and has optional AWD, a unique feature in this class among cheaper vehicles (at least until the new Impreza hatch arrives).

[aromo]

I'm in the market for a small car also, but I have a kid and I read somewhere that these cars are very unsafe for rear occupants on rear crashes (i.e. rear seat destroyed upon SUV crashing the back of the car). Any input on safety?

[JetLi]

Update: We test drove the Wave today, it was like driving a cement block, as soon as we left the lot (I was in the passenger seat) I felt like that 1-2" drop was like dropping 5 feet. My back felt it and my neck went twang! But I didn't say anything, it's my gf's car and as long as she likes it, it's all good. She drove about 2km, made a few turns and was like "Can we go back now?" I knew she hated it already, so we went back, listened and got the numbers, etc...the salesman didn't know jack about the car and I had to show him how to open the trunk. We left in a hurry and scratched it off the list without a thought.

Next we went to the Honda fit - the sales guy was so genuine, he told us the pros and cons, his biggest thing was no arm rest in the centre and that even at his height, 6'2", he had trouble seeing over the rear head rest in the blind spot. My gf, who's about 5'4 had no issues, she looked under it. I thought the engineering and the minor things, like the pen holder, the use of space was amazing, but again, it's up to my gf. She loved the ride, the handling and pickup - obviously it was nothing compared to her Sunfire, but she was happy.

Lastly, we tried to hit up Nissan for a Versa test run, but they were super unprofessional and the sales guy through us some papers with numbers while he was working on closing a deal for a 2008 Altima 2.5Z. I was so pissed off, he asked for our number and to schedule a test drive, but I am not going back to that one. We're off to try the Yaris and the Versa tomorrow, but I think she is set on the Fit - but we'll have to work on the numbers to see how we can fit it into our budget - she went from the LX to the Sport model preference. I'll keep everyone up to date.

[brendonp]

I did Markham to Ottawa..within Ottawa for 3 days and back for $100 in gas (if that helps in anyway) but more recently I'm getting about 350km a tank (~$35)

That sounds like crazy bad gas mileage for such a small car!!! I'm getting roughly 680-720 a tank (in a larger BMW with obviously with a much larger tank) - but a full tank of premium is ~$65 when I fill from empty... While my mileage isn't much better then yours, the vehicles are a far cry in size/weight & power....

EDIT: BTW, I vote for a Mini Cooper S as well - obviously not one of your targets, but they are a blast to drive! Having spoken with several other Mini drivers, they all mentioned that the 5-spd Fit has the best handling and "driving enjoyment" in the class - for what it's worth....

[onecoolloser]

.... She loved the ride, the handling and pickup - obviously it was nothing compared to her Sunfire, but she was happy.



So you're saying that her old Sunfire is better than the Fit?

[JetLi]

Sorry, let me reword that. The pickup in the Fit was not comparable to the Sunfire (109hp to 155hp), but she loved the rest - especially the door sizes! (She has a 2 door and it's like opening a vault, you need a lot of space, and it's heavy with the bucket seats!)

[Jon Lai]

If price is a factor, then don't even bother going Japanese. But be aware that you may get more problems later, because Pontiac isn't known for its reliability factor there.

How much is insurance for all of these models ? Ask and post it.

Why not Japanese? A Toyota Yaris starts at only $12995!! Great price for a NEW Japanese car that's highly reliable and most likely will not require anything but oil changes every 5000km and a new set of tires after you run it for 60-70K km...

Toyota cars are the most reliable brand available. I've yet to drive a car that only needs oil changes and rotations, and it happened with my Camry. Even if they cost more, it's worth it for the fact that I don't spend thousands of dollars fixing it like our 10 year old Mercury.

[danipet]

There's a lot of opinions about how much fun a car is to drive (i.e. Mini Cooper or Honda Fit), but if your girlfriend is like the majority of the women, including my wife, they don't care about that. All they care about is to have a 'cute' car that doesn't let them down and is safe. It doesn't hurt to be good on gas and have low insurance either.
Since your main deciding factor is price, Nissan Versa may be a good choice with the promotions that Nissan is having now. The Versa has a lease rate of 3.5% as opposed to the Fit with 6.9% for 5 years.
Check out the crash test ratings:
http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr121906.html
Versa earned good ratings in front, side and rear crash tests. The latter is where the other small cars have problems.
We bought our Versa late February and drove it for 9500km since then. I had the Service Engine Soon light come on once, but that was because I haven't tightened the gas cap enough. It went away quickly after I adjusted the gas cap. No problems at all with it.
We compared it with the Honda Fit, as many did, but my biggest problems with the Fit was no armrest available at all and no dead pedal to rest your left foot on. The interior passenger space in the Versa is incredible and biggest out of all the cars you are comparing. The quality of the interior materials is very good. We bought the SL hatchback with the technology package and has leather steering wheel with controls for radio, cruise control and Bluetooth telephone, leather center and door armrest. The quality of the fabric on the seats is really good, much better than the suede like material on the S version and the seats are very comfortable, having some kind of memory foam in them. By the way, the technology package includes speed sensitive volume control for the radio, which is really neat, once you experience it. No overly loud radio when you stop at a traffic light.
As others said, the engine power is adequate, it is actually very peppy when taking off from standstill. Where you have problems is when you are moving and want to accelerate. It is sluggish, especially if you have the AC on, but that is to be expected. The auto in the SL version is the CVT type, which doesn't have instant reactions, if this is what you are used to, but I got used to it. It is amazingly quiet, at least for a car in this category. Other reviewers had said the Fit and the Yaris are much louder.
Mileage is good, not excellent and Yaris like, but in stop and go city traffic I average about 8.3 l/100km. The tank has about 45 liters, for your girfriend with her 7km one way trips would be enough for more than 5-6 weeks between fill ups. From women's perspective, both the Versa and the Fit are cute, but I think in comparable trim, the Versa has better leasing rates. I wouldn't know because we financed it with $3000 down and $3000 trade in, we took their financing for 1% for 4 years.
Maintenance wise, oil changes are required every 6000km, but I negotiated in my deal 3 free oil changes with Alta Nissan. If you really don't get anywhere at any other dealerships, I could recommend the sales manager at this Woodbridge one.
That's all I can think of right now, ask away if you want.

[new_vr]

Why not Japanese? A Toyota Yaris starts at only $12995!! Great price for a NEW Japanese car that's highly reliable and most likely will not require anything but oil changes every 5000km and a new set of tires after you run it for 60-70K km...

Toyota cars are the most reliable brand available. I've yet to drive a car that only needs oil changes and rotations, and it happened with my Camry. Even if they cost more, it's worth it for the fact that I don't spend thousands of dollars fixing it like our 10 year old Mercury.
Yup, Japanese cars never need new brakes or anything like that.
I wish I could find one of these maintenance free cars. I have had a few toyotas, and while they weren't bad cars, they weren't problem free. What do you expect when you put that many moving parts together?

[SkiD]

Check out the crash test ratings:


I am guessing that the Versa is really more of a "compact" car and Fit/Yaris/Korean's are "sub-compacts", which would mean it is safer but would have a little less fuel economy because of the physics involved with the extra size/weight.

[SkiD]

Why not Japanese? A Toyota Yaris starts at only $12995!! Great price for a NEW Japanese car that's highly reliable and most likely will not require anything but oil changes every 5000km and a new set of tires after you run it for 60-70K km...

Toyota cars are the most reliable brand available. I've yet to drive a car that only needs oil changes and rotations, and it happened with my Camry. Even if they cost more, it's worth it for the fact that I don't spend thousands of dollars fixing it like our 10 year old Mercury.

Boy I would sure hate to buy your used vehicles.

[VivienM]

Why not Japanese? A Toyota Yaris starts at only $12995!! Great price for a NEW Japanese car that's highly reliable and most likely will not require anything but oil changes every 5000km and a new set of tires after you run it for 60-70K km...

Toyota cars are the most reliable brand available. I've yet to drive a car that only needs oil changes and rotations, and it happened with my Camry. Even if they cost more, it's worth it for the fact that I don't spend thousands of dollars fixing it like our 10 year old Mercury.

So let me get this straight?

Your Toyota never needs
- brake pads
- tires (they can be rotated forever? wow)
- wiper blades
- coolant
- automatic transmission fluid (if applicable)
- air & fuel filters
- windshield washer fluid
- light bulbs
- timing belts (the older Toyotas use belts, don't they?)
or any other wear item other than oil?

I didn't know Toyota had repealed the laws of automotive physics. No wonder their resale value is so high.

[Narci]

That sounds like crazy bad gas mileage for such a small car!!! I'm getting roughly 680-720 a tank (in a larger BMW with obviously with a much larger tank) - but a full tank of premium is ~$65 when I fill from empty... While my mileage isn't much better then yours, the vehicles are a far cry in size/weight & power.

WOW,....which BMW is this that does 680-720km on a 55 liter tank?

My TSX only does 450-475 on a 55 liter tank on premium and I rarely go over 3.5K RPM.

[akito925]

I definitely vote for the Fit. Resale value will be better than any of the others. Avoid the Swift/Aveo/Wave. They are Korean junk, all will most likely be well for the first 5-8 years and after that they can't hold a candle to a Honda or Toyota. That's why there is a drastic deifference in resale values at that age.

the FIT gets my vote.. because I've been to hk and china.. everyone dirves fits, lots of neat little decals and minor things you can do to the car to make it look unique.. I'm waiting for someone's fit's lease to expire.. then it would be cheaper

[ES_Revenge]

So you're saying that her old Sunfire is better than the Fit?

Uh yeah that's a given no? Especially if it were a 95-00 Sunfire with a 2.4L TC--I'd take that any day over the econobox nonsense that is the Fit....

[ES_Revenge]

So let me get this straight?

Your Toyota never needs
- brake pads
- tires (they can be rotated forever? wow)
- wiper blades
- coolant
- automatic transmission fluid (if applicable)
- air & fuel filters
- windshield washer fluid
- light bulbs
- timing belts (the older Toyotas use belts, don't they?)
or any other wear item other than oil?

I didn't know Toyota had repealed the laws of automotive physics. No wonder their resale value is so high.

LMAO. And you can add a few more things to that list too...

Sounds like his Toyota wasn't so much "maintenance free" as it was "poorly maintained" LOL.

[Jon Lai]

So let me get this straight?

Your Toyota never needs
- brake pads
- tires (they can be rotated forever? wow)
- wiper blades
- coolant
- automatic transmission fluid (if applicable)
- air & fuel filters
- windshield washer fluid
- light bulbs
- timing belts (the older Toyotas use belts, don't they?)
or any other wear item other than oil?

I didn't know Toyota had repealed the laws of automotive physics. No wonder their resale value is so high.

I said tires until 60-70K, didn't I?
And the other things you listed are small things that don't even exceed $100. Windshield washer fluid? Come on, that's not part of the car. That's like saying you don't need to add more gas as its consumed.

[VivienM]

I said tires until 60-70K, didn't I?

You did, but you also said this: I've yet to drive a car that only needs oil changes and rotations, and it happened with my Camry.

That clearly suggests the thing doesn't need brake pads and that its tires can be rotated forever.

[notanexpert]

WOW,....which BMW is this that does 680-720km on a 55 liter tank?

My TSX only does 450-475 on a 55 liter tank on premium and I rarely go over 3.5K RPM.

My 318ti does about 650-750 depending on how much highway driving I do, on about 50 to 55 litres of premium gas. That is nothing out of the ordinary, a bit over 7.3 litres per 100km. The official Energuide rating for my car is 6.9 litres per 100km on the highway. The engine revs at about 3500 at 115km/h.
In the city I tend to stay below 4k rpm in normal driving.
On rare occasions I can get less than 600 on a tank if its a winter storm and/or I drive a lot in stop and go traffic.

[Madrid2k]

In the 2007 JD Power & Associates Automotive Study, Honda captured the most segment awards.

And yes, Honda Fit was voted best in its class.

In addition to JD Power, no other sub-compact on the market has won as many awards as the Fit. No other sub-compact has received as much critical acclaim.

In terms of utility, features, safety, fit and finish, the Honda Fit handily beats every other vehicle in its class. It has no peer when you factor everything in.

As well, the Fit EASILY has the best resale value as well.

Sure, you might save a couple of grand upfront if you buy a Wave etc, but you will lose more than half your value in a couple of years.

Good luck with your decision.

[smartcdn]

Madrid2k makes a good point.

A lot of people often make decisions on purchase price without considering the car as an 'investment'

No cars will gain in value (except maybe vintage ones), but the key is to find one that loses the least in value.

I remember reading an article that compared family sedans (Jap vs. Amercan ones) and predictably, the HONDA Accord/TOYOTA Camry handily beat out its American Big 3 counterparts by a wide margin.

Example: Accord retained somewhere around 54% after 4-5 years whereas American-branded cars (malibu, taurus) were looking at around 30-35% after the same time.

If the figures are even close, then you can guestimate the following:

Honda Fit: $18,000 --> $9,600 after 5 years
Wave: $14,000 ---> maybe $4,500 after 5 years

In this example, someone who 'thought' they saved $4,000 on buying a Wave would be looking at losing $5,100 later on.

Factor in the other posts and generally accepted fact that Japanese-branded cars are more reliable meaning less repairs/maintenance money, then the decision becomes so simple.

[Jay1234]

I would say Honda Fit or Nissan Versa. Japanese reliability.

I've been hearing many good things about the Fit and the Versa. Apparently they're both fun to drive and good on mileage.

Personally, i'd drive those two cars and choose.

Actually only the Fit and Yaris are actually made in Japan. The versa is made in Mexico.

My wife bought a fit in November, it is a very good little car and fun to drive. If you want a 5 spd, be prepared to wait, there is a big shortage in 5 spd, we had to wait several months for ours. When we drove the 5spd compared to the auto, there is a HUGE difference, 5 spd is definately more fun to drive and more zippy.

Jay

[notanexpert]

Actually only the Fit and Yaris are actually made in Japan. The versa is made in Mexico.

My wife bought a fit in November, it is a very good little car and fun to drive. If you want a 5 spd, be prepared to wait, there is a big shortage in 5 spd, we had to wait several months for ours. When we drove the 5spd compared to the auto, there is a HUGE difference, 5 spd is definately more fun to drive and more zippy.

Jay

A friend of mine bought a 5-speed Fit a month ago, got one right off the lot, no waiting involved. This was in west-end TO.

[brendonp]

WOW,....which BMW is this that does 680-720km on a 55 liter tank?

My TSX only does 450-475 on a 55 liter tank on premium and I rarely go over 3.5K RPM.

'01 330 Coupe (m/t) - I think the tank is actually 60L, though I seldom drive it right down to empty.... I've kept it properly maintained over the years which probably helps a bit, but I know a few people who get better mileage. I also live fairly close to the 401 so probably do 75% highway, however I'm also pretty heavy on the gas around town (acceleration, not top speed ;)). Best recorded mileage to date was 785 kms on one tank (running on fumes at the end I'm sure!), almost all highway mileage. My highway mileage generally sits a bit below 8L / 100km, and overall average is a bit below 9L/100km, unless I only drive around town - then I'm up around 10! ....

As odd as it sounds, the 3L I6 BMW engines typically get much better mileage then their 2.5L I6s (ie 330 vs 325). I suspect the extra torque is more efficient at moving the vehicle up to speed; quite possibly the problem (if you want to call it that) that your TSX has... I had a 5th gen Honda Prelude (ie high revving i4) and noticed virtually no change in overall gas consumption moving to the BMW....

[Codegen]

Yeah, IMO, the Swifts/Waves/Aveos don't have the best reliability. I think we've had to bring our '05 Aveo in for warranty work at least twice. Mind you, I believe it has about 60000km on it, but still.

Our 2001 pisspot Swift, sure it's small, but it sure does seem to put up a fight. Hell, it survived driving out of the garage without oil in it (CT ****up). It has about 165000km on it, and we've had to replace the tranny, alternator, and a belt, and of course the regular crap, too.

[SkiD]

Madrid2k makes a good point.

A lot of people often make decisions on purchase price without considering the car as an 'investment'

No cars will gain in value (except maybe vintage ones), but the key is to find one that loses the least in value.

I remember reading an article that compared family sedans (Jap vs. Amercan ones) and predictably, the HONDA Accord/TOYOTA Camry handily beat out its American Big 3 counterparts by a wide margin.

Example: Accord retained somewhere around 54% after 4-5 years whereas American-branded cars (malibu, taurus) were looking at around 30-35% after the same time.

If the figures are even close, then you can guestimate the following:

Honda Fit: $18,000 --> $9,600 after 5 years
Wave: $14,000 ---> maybe $4,500 after 5 years

In this example, someone who 'thought' they saved $4,000 on buying a Wave would be looking at losing $5,100 later on.

Factor in the other posts and generally accepted fact that Japanese-branded cars are more reliable meaning less repairs/maintenance money, then the decision becomes so simple.

The problem with your example is you can't compare the resale of an Accord to a Fit or Wave to a Malibu/Taurus. Every car is different and there are many things that affect resale value.

That said, I would guess (without doing research) that the Fit would currently have good resale value because of the pent up demand for a new (to North America at least) model.

But if the OP leases the vehicle, resale value does not matter because it is included in the costs and the monthly payments can be directly compared between vehicles.

I think a lot of people would be suprised if they saw what the real values of some cars are after say 5 years (you can't just use a blanket statement).

[VivienM]

No cars will gain in value (except maybe vintage ones), but the key is to find one that loses the least in value.

I remember reading an article that compared family sedans (Jap vs. Amercan ones) and predictably, the HONDA Accord/TOYOTA Camry handily beat out its American Big 3 counterparts by a wide margin.

Example: Accord retained somewhere around 54% after 4-5 years whereas American-branded cars (malibu, taurus) were looking at around 30-35% after the same time.

If the figures are even close, then you can guestimate the following:

Honda Fit: $18,000 --> $9,600 after 5 years
Wave: $14,000 ---> maybe $4,500 after 5 years

In this example, someone who 'thought' they saved $4,000 on buying a Wave would be looking at losing $5,100 later on.

You're assuming financing costs are equal. If the interest rate is much lower on the car with the lower resale value (which it generally would be - Toyota and Honda charge high rates), then that narrows the gap substantially...

[JetLi]

Hi all - Updates 2:

So we went to test drive the Versa last night again and for the second Nissan dealership in a row - they didn't have one in stock and insisted we test drive the sedan as it is "exactly the same" - which is not 100% true since the parking and lane changing (blind spots) are different. Quite disappointed the seats don't fold down flat and actually had about a 8" hump because of the back seat bench. So, we went to a 3rd Nissan dealership, once again, it was small has heck and they seemed too busy to worry about us. They asked us if we were both in school still (Both of us graduated in 2002) - and I guess our younger looking ages, we just didn't seem like serious buyers. Unfortunately, due to the sales agents, we just had to cross off the Versa off our list. We didn't get to test drive one, we went to 3 dealerships and felt that none of the sales guys were competant, nor knowledgable. Which is too bad, because it was definitely our 2nd option (we'll conclude on the first in a moment).

We also visited 2 Toyota dealerships, the first one had an agent take the keys to the Yaris home so we couldn't test drive it, they were out of brochures, and we didn't like how only the RS model (a $20,800 model) was the only one that had 60/40 seat splits. We also didn't like how the seats didn't fold down as flat and she didn't like how the console was in the middle. Of course, had she been able to test drive one, it may have changed her mind, so we headed to the 2nd Toyota dealership of the night, unfortunately they couldn't let us test drive the Yaris because it was too close to 9:00pm and their insurance only covered them to 9:00pm. We probably could have made it, if I didn't insist on stopping at another Honda dealership in the middle to see what the "Get up to $1500 in gas" promo was all about on the windows (yesterday was the first day of a new month) and I wanted to know if it applied to the Fit, too bad it didn't. The last thing was we saw that the Fit actually had a "fold up" back bench, which gave you a very deep space in the back seat area - great for a couple like us who are often buying small plants and such for gardening. It looked like a good 4' tree in a pot could stand in there.

Conclusion: She loves the Fit, unfortunately not being able to test drive the other cars was a drawback, but the Fit was engineered much better than the other cars. A lot of it was the little things, like the pen holder, the sliding forward seats so you don't have to take off the headrest when folding down the back seats, you could fold up the back seats, etc...etc...We wanted to finance the Fit, but we're going back to look at the numbers, she says she can see herself driving it for 8-10 years easily. I loved the Fit for the minor engineering additions in it. Personally, I didn't care much for the computer assisted maintenance items which has to be reset by Honda, but considering how much she drives, going back to the dealership 2 times a year, isn't too bad.

One more thing - car salesman seem to have gotten pretty bad these days. I met Jeff-theBiz - and if you're looking for a Mazda, the guy knows everything he needs to know about the Mazdas, and his upbeat and definitely seems to enjoy his job. 6 of the 7 sales guys we met, either gave us the slimeball feeling or couldn't speak proper english (I could have communicated in Chinese with 3 of them, but my gf is Caucasian and it's her car), or just didn't know enough about their products to convince me they had a superior product. The one guy that seemed like he loved his job and cars, happens to be from Honda (the first Honda dealership we went to 2 days ago) - and I think he's earned our trust to go back and talk numbers with him now. I'll provide my final feedback about it all after we get the car now. Hope our input/experience will help some of you other shoppers out there!

[xanatos]

I'm a Fit owner, got mine 7 months ago.

I compared with Versa (more room and cheaper) and Yaris (cheaper), and the Mazda 3 (sportier, more power).

I've been really really happy with the Fit, its a lot of fun to drive. I have the 5spd manual LX. I've driven in Winnipeg winters, Alberta hills, and just took it on its first road trip from Winnipeg->Calgary (12hrs).

Main selling features for me where:
-the magic seats! We used the long mode (passenger seat connects with 2nd row seat to create a long "dentist's chair" shaped seat. This was amazing on the road trip to stretch out your whole body. Also the Fit's rear seats fold completely flat (unlike Yaris and Versa), I've been able to fit a ton of stuff in the back)
-styling - I like the Fit's interior and exterior the most. Yaris' center console really turned me off. Versa was OK inside, but it wasn't fun.
-good on gas (better than Versa, a bit worse than the Yaris).
City I get 7L/100KM (summer), 7.5-8.0L/100KM (winter)
Highway I get 6L/100KM (going 115kmph), 7L/100KM (going 140kmph)

Things I don't like about the car:
-power can feel a bit lacking on uphills (manual transmission really helps here)
-no armrest or dead pedal (as mentioned), but over a 13 hr car ride it wasn't a big deal to me
-cargo cover should be included

Don't forget the $1000 rebate from Honda Canada to complete with the $1000 rebate the Yaris gets from the government.

In conclusion, really love the Fit, no complaints, its my first car and I love driving it.

-xan-

[maniacshopper]

my vote goes to the Fit.

Check the insurance, if there's a big difference then go for the Versa or yaris.
Insurance on Honda's tend to be more expensive.
Make sure the versa or yaris has abs.

Thing about Honda, is always lacking torque, manual compensates. I'd buy the base manual. ABS is not always needed. Good to have, but to level up, you've got to shell out another $1500. You'd get AC, pwr locks, alloys.

[myversa]

My versa has abs. The interior is big and you will feel confortable sitting inside of it. I have only had it for couple of months and no problem so far.

Of course I would vote for versa.

[Jon Lai]

Hi all - Updates 2:

So we went to test drive the Versa last night again and for the second Nissan dealership in a row - they didn't have one in stock and insisted we test drive the sedan as it is "exactly the same" - which is not 100% true since the parking and lane changing (blind spots) are different. Quite disappointed the seats don't fold down flat and actually had about a 8" hump because of the back seat bench. So, we went to a 3rd Nissan dealership, once again, it was small has heck and they seemed too busy to worry about us. They asked us if we were both in school still (Both of us graduated in 2002) - and I guess our younger looking ages, we just didn't seem like serious buyers. Unfortunately, due to the sales agents, we just had to cross off the Versa off our list. We didn't get to test drive one, we went to 3 dealerships and felt that none of the sales guys were competant, nor knowledgable. Which is too bad, because it was definitely our 2nd option (we'll conclude on the first in a moment).

We also visited 2 Toyota dealerships, the first one had an agent take the keys to the Yaris home so we couldn't test drive it, they were out of brochures, and we didn't like how only the RS model (a $20,800 model) was the only one that had 60/40 seat splits. We also didn't like how the seats didn't fold down as flat and she didn't like how the console was in the middle. Of course, had she been able to test drive one, it may have changed her mind, so we headed to the 2nd Toyota dealership of the night, unfortunately they couldn't let us test drive the Yaris because it was too close to 9:00pm and their insurance only covered them to 9:00pm. We probably could have made it, if I didn't insist on stopping at another Honda dealership in the middle to see what the "Get up to $1500 in gas" promo was all about on the windows (yesterday was the first day of a new month) and I wanted to know if it applied to the Fit, too bad it didn't. The last thing was we saw that the Fit actually had a "fold up" back bench, which gave you a very deep space in the back seat area - great for a couple like us who are often buying small plants and such for gardening. It looked like a good 4' tree in a pot could stand in there.

Conclusion: She loves the Fit, unfortunately not being able to test drive the other cars was a drawback, but the Fit was engineered much better than the other cars. A lot of it was the little things, like the pen holder, the sliding forward seats so you don't have to take off the headrest when folding down the back seats, you could fold up the back seats, etc...etc...We wanted to finance the Fit, but we're going back to look at the numbers, she says she can see herself driving it for 8-10 years easily. I loved the Fit for the minor engineering additions in it. Personally, I didn't care much for the computer assisted maintenance items which has to be reset by Honda, but considering how much she drives, going back to the dealership 2 times a year, isn't too bad.

One more thing - car salesman seem to have gotten pretty bad these days. I met Jeff-theBiz - and if you're looking for a Mazda, the guy knows everything he needs to know about the Mazdas, and his upbeat and definitely seems to enjoy his job. 6 of the 7 sales guys we met, either gave us the slimeball feeling or couldn't speak proper english (I could have communicated in Chinese with 3 of them, but my gf is Caucasian and it's her car), or just didn't know enough about their products to convince me they had a superior product. The one guy that seemed like he loved his job and cars, happens to be from Honda (the first Honda dealership we went to 2 days ago) - and I think he's earned our trust to go back and talk numbers with him now. I'll provide my final feedback about it all after we get the car now. Hope our input/experience will help some of you other shoppers out there!

I'm not going to try and sound biased here, but if you haven't even tried all the alternatives yet, don't set your minds up for the Fit *just yet*.

BTW, it sounds like you guys are looking for hatchbacks. Don't you think sedans look better? ;) We paid $1K more to get a Yaris sedan over a hatchback just because it looks nicer and is actually longer.

[JetLi]

We want to try all the alternatives if we can, but we're running out of time. Her lease ends in a week and we need to make a decision. Although we didn't get a chance to test drive everything, the engineering of the Fit definitely has my vote at this stage. We like the hatchbacks because of trunk space, both of us enjoy minor home renovations or more importantly gardening. We'll continue to post our input in the future to hopefully help other people in their search.

[Wall Man]

Hi all - Updates 2:

Personally, I didn't care much for the computer assisted maintenance items which has to be reset by Honda, but considering how much she drives, going back to the dealership 2 times a year, isn't too bad.



When I read the manual, the computer maintenance can be manually reset, so you shouldn't be tied to the dealership.

I knew she'd love the seats.

I concur with your assessment with car salesmen.

[Ironballz]

I like the looks of the Fit better but I think I'd buy the Versa just because Hiro Nakamura drives one :lol:

[gzajay]

When buying the Swift+ we didn't factor in resale value -- we figured we'd ride it out for a couple years and then let it rot :)

[JetLi]

One of the things we considered when looking was

1) Yaris and Fit are built in Japan, but the Versa is built in Mexico
2) Wave was just plain garbage
3) The resell value of the Fit, we anticipate to be higher than the Wave, Aveo, Swift and probably more than the Versa (since it's built in Mexico) while remaining comparable with the Yaris, if not also more.
4) Like I said before, my gf said that she can see herself driving it for 8-10 years, in which case, I prefered the Yaris or Fit from experience. We just have to take good care of the body and the engine will just keep on going. :cheesygri

[ES_Revenge]

One of the things we considered when looking was

1) Yaris and Fit are built in Japan, but the Versa is built in Mexico
2) Wave was just plain garbage
Actually all of them are just plain garbage, IMO. Econobox garbage.

3) The resell value of the Fit, we anticipate to be higher than the Wave, Aveo, Swift and probably more than the Versa (since it's built in Mexico) while remaining comparable with the Yaris, if not also more.
Yeah that's true and it's a good thing because if you have any passion for cars/driving at all you'll want to sell it after the first day. Resale value is a must!

4) Like I said before, my gf said that she can see herself driving it for 8-10 years, in which case,
Astonishing!!! I couldn't see myself driving a POS like that for more than 8-10 minutes LOL. Oh and as for the body, you'll probably get standard Honda rust-buckets effect well before those 10 years. Afterall, Honda galvanised-metal is apparently an oxymoron...

[isleepinadrawer]

how are those fits in the winter? im thinking they'll get bog down in the snow?

[new_vr]

[QUOTE=ES_Revenge;5305253]
Yeah that's true and it's a good thing because if you have any passion for cars/driving at all you'll want to sell it after the first day. Resale value is a must!
QUOTE]
I disagree. My friend had an echo, and it was great fun to drive. You had to push the car everywhere, and it was really easy to drive at the upper end of it's handling capabilities.

[ES_Revenge]

I disagree. My friend had an echo, and it was great fun to drive. You had to push the car everywhere, and it was really easy to drive at the upper end of it's handling capabilities.

Echo??? :rolleyes: :confused: C'mon now, give over... That's one of the worst cars on the road. Also, I don't know how pushing a car (instead of it moving under it's own power?) is "fun".

[VivienM]

Econobox garbage.

I hate to say it, my friend, but I think the two of us are the only ones LEFT in this world who are critical of econoboxes.

Everybody else is just running off to buy their $24000 fully-loaded sunroof-leather-whatever Civics/Corollas/Mazda3s... or their $18-19K Fits and Yarises.

[and or]

Main selling features for me where:
-the magic seats! We used the long mode (passenger seat connects with 2nd row seat to create a long "dentist's chair" shaped seat. This was amazing on the road trip to stretch out your whole body. Also the Fit's rear seats fold completely flat (unlike Yaris and Versa), I've been able to fit a ton of stuff in the back)

Even better is the way the rear seats easily fold up - the tall space is very useful.

[new_vr]

Echo??? :rolleyes: :confused: C'mon now, give over... That's one of the worst cars on the road. Also, I don't know how pushing a car (instead of it moving under it's own power?) is "fun".
Hey...this is coming from a guy who hates driving toyotas...
He's got a WRX now, and it drives better, but you can't use anywhere near it's capabilities on the roads

[notanexpert]

Hey...this is coming from a guy who hates driving toyotas...
He's got a WRX now, and it drives better, but you can't use anywhere near it's capabilities on the roads

I personally find the Japanese "econoboxes" a hell of a lot more fun to drive than anything mid-size from ANY manufacturer, especially the big 3. Ever tried a Century or Malibu versus an Echo? The GM's feel like a whale on a skateboard.
The big 3 mid-size sedans are easily the worst handling cars you can get for your money, I'll take a Yaris or a Fit any day over those, short trip or long, I still find the Japanese more responsive and fun to drive.

[BD006]

I personally find the Japanese "econoboxes" a hell of a lot more fun to drive than anything mid-size from ANY manufacturer, especially the big 3. Ever tried a Century or Malibu versus an Echo? The GM's feel like a whale on a skateboard.
The big 3 mid-size sedans are easily the worst handling cars you can get for your money, I'll take a Yaris or a Fit any day over those, short trip or long, I still find the Japanese more responsive and fun to drive.

I dunno, from what I've read, the Fusion is pretty good (since it's based on the Mazda6).

But then I guess that doesn't really make it a real NA car. :razz:

[googoo]

ES-revenge

Dude, buddy whatever, I am a car enthusiast and I drive a Civic, the car you drive means nothing about your knowledge or love of the automobile.

In this thread you are nothing but a useless troll!




OH, I'd feel the same way about buying a Versa if I were mistreated at a dealership too. We'll see how Saturn deals with me when they finally get the Astra in!

B

[VivienM]

I personally find the Japanese "econoboxes" a hell of a lot more fun to drive than anything mid-size from ANY manufacturer, especially the big 3. Ever tried a Century or Malibu versus an Echo? The GM's feel like a whale on a skateboard.
The big 3 mid-size sedans are easily the worst handling cars you can get for your money, I'll take a Yaris or a Fit any day over those, short trip or long, I still find the Japanese more responsive and fun to drive.

Perhaps I need to start driving some more econoboxes (I assume my dad's 2000 Mazda Protege with the 1.6L isn't experience enough? honestly, I'd rather drive a half-rusty 1996 Oldsmobile or Buick than that POS), but I just don't understand what's "fun to drive" about a car with firm, uncomfortable seats, an engine that won't let you pass on the highway or go up big hills unless you put your foot all the way down and make the transmission downshift, steering that's stiff when you're trying to park, etc. Not to mention the lack of power windows (okay, most people buy them now), auto climate control (which Hyundai offers on econoboxes now, but no one else seems to?), power seats, and all those niceties that make life EASIER for you.

I've noticed that "fun to drive" basically is a synonym for "masochistic to drive": the harsher the ride, the firmer the seats, the stiffer the steering, etc., the more "fun to drive" something is. No, I don't understand that. I guess screwdrivers are more fun than power drills, manual typewriters more fun than laser printers, etc in your world?

And the Century is probably THE floatiest, worst-handling car GM makes. Try a Regal, Grand Prix, or pre-2006 Impala LS, or the sportier versions of the G platform (Aurora, Seville STS, Lucerne CXS). Sure, they probably won't meet your expectations, but they won't be AS disappointing as the Century or LeSabre without the Gran Touring suspension.

[notanexpert]

I dunno, from what I've read, the Fusion is pretty good (since it's based on the Mazda6).

But then I guess that doesn't really make it a real NA car. :razz:

And both Ford and GM make excellent cars for other markets, I'll take any Euro Ford over the NA versions (ever compared a European Focus to the NA ones? the difference in feel and quality is like day and night!). The same goes for GM which makes perfectly nice cars for the European market and mostly junk for North America. Too bad that very few of their nice offerings are available here (yay to the upcoming Astra!), and very often when they do bring them here, they will tune out and decontent all the good stuff! Remember the very nice Mondeo that turned into Contour junk or the perfecty respectable Vectra that turned into Saturn LS junk?

[SkiD]

And both Ford and GM make excellent cars for other markets, I'll take any Euro Ford over the NA versions (ever compared a European Focus to the NA ones? the difference in feel and quality is like day and night!). The same goes for GM which makes perfectly nice cars for the European market and mostly junk for North America. Too bad that very few of their nice offerings are available here (yay to the upcoming Astra!), and very often when they do bring them here, they will tune out and decontent all the good stuff! Remember the very nice Mondeo that turned into Contour junk or the perfecty respectable Vectra that turned into Saturn LS junk?

Well I guess you will be in for a treat from GM then as they are finally taking a global approach to designing cars.

Within a few years Opel = Vauxhall = Saturn for almost all their models (basically only the badging will be different).

Daewoo will be responsible for the Gamma platform (subcompact FWD)
Holden in Australia will be responsible for the Zeta platform (mid/full RWD)
Brazilian arm of GM will most likely be responsible for the small truck platform
Opel/Saab will be take a lead role in the Epsilon II platform (mid FWD/AWD)

If Ford is smart, they will do the same with their Euro and Australian models.

[and or]

And both Ford and GM make excellent cars for other markets, I'll take any Euro Ford over the NA versions (ever compared a European Focus to the NA ones? the difference in feel and quality is like day and night!). The same goes for GM which makes perfectly nice cars for the European market and mostly junk for North America. Too bad that very few of their nice offerings are available here (yay to the upcoming Astra!), and very often when they do bring them here, they will tune out and decontent all the good stuff! Remember the very nice Mondeo that turned into Contour junk or the perfecty respectable Vectra that turned into Saturn LS junk?

Why would they bother doing that, when N. American customers slop up their rancid cars like pigs at a trough?

[VivienM]

Why would they bother doing that, when N. American customers slop up their rancid cars like pigs at a trough?

Because North American customers AREN'T buying GM's "rancid cars"? They're buying GM's trucks, SUVs, crossovers, etc., but a large part of their cars are sold to rental and other fleet customers.

Clearly you must not have seen the trend of GM sales. *sigh*

[googoo]

Vivien, is seems your idea of fun to drive is a lounger and a good remote control. Sure the creature comforts are fun to have, but none of it adds to the fun to drive factor, it doesn't make people want to be sitting in the drivers seat and drive around because they love being in their car.

Firm seats are part of any sporty drive, sure a Regal with a supercharged 3.8 will kill a civic or Mazda 3, but i'd much rather drive either of those because "I" find them more enjoyable to drive.

Being a car fan isn't about having the fastest best handling car, because you never will, it's about something that makes you'll feel good.

Brent

[Slippery_Pete]

Being a car fan isn't about having the fastest best handling car, because you never will, it's about something that makes you'll feel good.



I'm pretty sure Vivien feels the same way. He loves his W-bodies because he loves the ride, not because they are the fastest and the best handling for sure. You love the ride of a stiff higher revving ride, and he loves the ride of a smoother higher tourque ride. Me, I don't mind either.

[VivienM]

Vivien, is seems your idea of fun to drive is a lounger and a good remote control. Sure the creature comforts are fun to have, but none of it adds to the fun to drive factor, it doesn't make people want to be sitting in the drivers seat and drive around because they love being in their car.

Being a car fan isn't about having the fastest best handling car, because you never will, it's about something that makes you'll feel good.

What I'm looking for is something that's relaxing... or at least more relaxing than the alternatives (i.e. train, bus, etc.), especially for long distances (econoboxes are fine in the city, though some, e.g. Cobalt, just ride way too firm for me).

e.g. Last year, I went to Ottawa. Left Friday night on the train. This was the day of the derailment at Mimico. Spent an hour and a half standing around in Union Station wondering wtf was up. Finally made it to Ottawa, exhausted, at 10:30 or so, destroying my dinner plans. Total cost - $80 (at the student price).

Two days later, I came back driving my dad's Regal (not the supercharged one. I'm sure the L67 is great, but the L36 drink regular gas and is good enough for my dad). Sit down in comfy driver's seat, get on highway 416, set cruise control at 110, stay comfortably in the right lane. The thing will just eat up the kilometers like nothing, with the tach indicating a nice loafing 1900RPM... Slowpoke on the right lane? Hit turn signal, move to left lane, push gas pedal about 1/4 down, and watch slowpoke disappear into rear view mirror. 220ish lb-ft of torque @ 1900RPM is a wonderful thing. Radio station starts cutting out? Push your steering-wheel mounted seek button and find another. What else do you need to worry about?
It's RELAXING. I can tell you that when I got out of the car 450km later, I wasn't tired at all... Total cost, with gas at $1.25 or something (this was the weekend gas hits record high) - $44 (for three people, a trunk full of stuff, and A/C running). And FWIW, that $44 means the car exactly matched its U.S. government rating of 29 highway MPG. (Tell that to all the fools with Toyotas/Hondas/etc who forced the US government to change the rating procedure because they couldn't get the MPG the sticker said they should)

And you wonder why I'm starting threads about stealerships misadvertising used Regals? :) Ignoring any potential image issues (and I'm well aware that except maybe for the Grand Prix, the other Ws are not exactly the coolest-looking thing for a 24 year old dude), I'd be thrilled to have one of those for myself. (Someday I'll talk about how it's easier to do a 3 point turn in a Buick Regal than in a 1.6L Mazda Protege, oddly enough, but that's for another day. :))

If driving your "fun to drive" cheap econoboxy thing is more stressful than socialist forms of transportation (and I can assure you that I'd rather take a delayed train filled with caffeinated toddlers than drive a 1.6L Mazda Protege with no cruise control from Ottawa to Toronto), then why bother?

[taro-chan]

If driving your "fun to drive" cheap econoboxy thing is more stressful than socialist forms of transportation (and I can assure you that I'd rather take a delayed train filled with caffeinated toddlers than drive a 1.6L Mazda Protege with no cruise control from Ottawa to Toronto), then why bother?I personally don't like the "Econobox" cars. Tried all of them and if I had to pick on, I would pick the Fit unless you count the Mini Cooper as "Econobox". (not Mini Cooper S)

However, I am one of those people that don't like cruise control. I get sleepy when I use it. Seems like I am not doing anything. Other then that, I agree that the Regal isn't a bad car and it is a very smooth ride.

[Jon Lai]

I hate to say it, my friend, but I think the two of us are the only ones LEFT in this world who are critical of econoboxes.

Everybody else is just running off to buy their $24000 fully-loaded sunroof-leather-whatever Civics/Corollas/Mazda3s... or their $18-19K Fits and Yarises.

I'd love a fully loaded Corolla for $24K, lol...

And there's really nothing wrong with an Econobox. People are cheap, and with gas as high as they are nowadays, it makes sense to buy something that drinks less than what we can pay for.

[VivienM]

And there's really nothing wrong with an Econobox.

That's where we obviously disagree. :)

[googoo]

"That's where we obviously disagree."

Not really, for a little cruise to Ottawa a Regal might be a good choice, but 95% of my driving is done with just me in the car, it's plenty quick for the driving I do, and I enjoy the car.

Sure I guess I could have bought something like a Grand Prix when I got my civic in 2003, but I didn't like the size and I didn't need the power just to prove how big my ___ is or to beat other cars from stoplight to stoplight.

OH, I'll be driving my Civic to the East coast in August, I'll set the cruise at 110 and enjoy the sights AND get 43-45 MPG

G

[VivienM]

Sure I guess I could have bought something like a Grand Prix when I got my civic in 2003, but I didn't like the size and I didn't need the power just to prove how big my ___ is or to beat other cars from stoplight to stoplight.

But it's not about the power - sure, a L67 should be decently fast, but if you don't get the supercharger, you're talking about a car with a mid-8 second 0-100km/h time. Certainly adequate, but... nothing exciting. The 07 Civic isn't much slower than that, is it?

[ES_Revenge]

I hate to say it, my friend, but I think the two of us are the only ones LEFT in this world who are critical of econoboxes.

Perhaps the only two left in Canada, I wouldn't say the world, LOL! It seems that tons of Canadians have some kind of robosexual hard-on for cars the smaller and more econobox they become! :lol: Seriously, the best selling cars in Canada are always the lowest-end cars it seems. In the past it was the Sunfire/Cavy, Civic, Corolla, etc. These days they just make them smaller and more crappy and then those even smaller cars (e.g. Echo, Yaris, Fit, etc.) become all the rave of the constantly-whining-about-fuel-economy-Canadians :rolleyes: Meanwhile in the US the best sellers are traditionally mid-sized type cars--they seem to enjoy a higher "standard of driving" over there.

ES-revenge

Dude, buddy whatever, I am a car enthusiast and I drive a Civic, the car you drive means nothing about your knowledge or love of the automobile.

In this thread you are nothing but a useless troll!
Uhh thanks? :rolleyes: I mean that came out of nowhere no? Where did I say anything about knowledge or love of the automobile? Have you been smoking drugs? LOL. Okay I did mention if you have an Echo [as your only car anyway] you proabably have no passion for cars, which I stand by. At least the Civic isn't horrible. The Echo is. It's a POS IMO, plain and simple. It's a car, it goes from place to place, and that's about all it does. I'd rather not own a car than have an Echo/Yaris! Now certainly I don't drive anything spectacular... But you definitely don't need to be driving a Ferrari to enjoy cars, but c'mon an Echo? That's an excrutiating experience to drive one of those.

And I'd still like to know why "pushing" an Echo is fun :confused: I mean personally I prefer cars where you can just open the throttle and the engine propels it... I mean you have to be really really cheap on gas if you push your car around, LOL. Of course infinite miles per gallon is not bad, but you're probably expending a heck of a lot of energy pushing that car, and probably not going over 10km/h anyway--why not just walk?

[Jon Lai]

Perhaps the only two left in Canada, I wouldn't say the world, LOL! It seems that tons of Canadians have some kind of robosexual hard-on for cars the smaller and more econobox they become! :lol: Seriously, the best selling cars in Canada are always the lowest-end cars it seems. In the past it was the Sunfire/Cavy, Civic, Corolla, etc. These days they just make them smaller and more crappy and then those even smaller cars (e.g. Echo, Yaris, Fit, etc.) become all the rave of the constantly-whining-about-fuel-economy-Canadians :rolleyes: Meanwhile in the US the best sellers are traditionally mid-sized type cars--they seem to enjoy a higher "standard of driving" over there.

But the Corolla is still the worlds' best selling car, not Toyota's new Yaris or other econoboxes.

And despite the constant advertisements about econoboxes, it doesn't prove that it's what Canadians like and prefer. Go out on the streets or parking lot, and count how many in ten cars are Corollas. Usually I get at least 3 to 4, if not more. And it makes sense - Corollas are comfortable, affordable, and backed up by Toyota's great quality assurance, perhaps the best brand you can get to assue you minimal maintainence in the consumer sub $40K level.

By the way, what's wrong with being conservative with the limited supply of gasoline that we have on Earth? So instead of trying to pollute our atmosphere to a minimum, we should, like most stubborn Americans, drive the diesel-sucking big trailers around because it's "comfortable" and it makes me look "manly" or it "turns me on" because it's "exciting"? Puh-lease.

Plus, I would prefer a Corolla over any American car anyday. I wouldn't call American cars "higher level of driving". American cars sell for low prices and their heritage and American's loyalty to their country's makes, and not for quality like Japanese and European cars.

And it's not like Ford doesn't have their own econobox.

[greg123]

have you tried the smart car?
http://www.thesmart.ca/index.cfm?ID=4720

[march9]

But the Corolla is still the worlds' best selling car, not Toyota's new Yaris or other econoboxes.

And despite the constant advertisements about econoboxes, it doesn't prove that it's what Canadians like and prefer. Go out on the streets or parking lot, and count how many in ten cars are Corollas. Usually I get at least 3 to 4, if not more. And it makes sense - Corollas are comfortable, affordable, and backed up by Toyota's great quality assurance, perhaps the best brand you can get to assue you minimal maintainence in the consumer sub $40K level.

By the way, what's wrong with being conservative with the limited supply of gasoline that we have on Earth? So instead of trying to pollute our atmosphere to a minimum, we should, like most stubborn Americans, drive the diesel-sucking big trailers around because it's "comfortable" and it makes me look "manly" or it "turns me on" because it's "exciting"? Puh-lease.

Plus, I would prefer a Corolla over any American car anyday. I wouldn't call American cars "higher level of driving". American cars sell for low prices and their heritage and American's loyalty to their country's makes, and not for quality like Japanese and European cars.

And it's not like Ford doesn't have their own econobox.

typical toyota fanboy.
VW Polo BlueMotion(YES it's a DIESEL) owns Toyota Prius for carbon emission lol. (AND fuel economy)

German Engineering at its best.

http://www.carpages.ca/go/autonews/03192006,good_to_the_last_drop_of_diesel__vws_polo _bluemotion.aspx

Wait for VW's diesel-electric hybrid, Toyota and Honda will get OWNED so bad. So much hype and good for nothing.

[VivienM]

Plus, I would prefer a Corolla over any American car anyday. I wouldn't call American cars "higher level of driving". American cars sell for low prices and their heritage and American's loyalty to their country's makes, and not for quality like Japanese and European cars.

So, if Bob Lutz showed up at your front door tomorrow, and offered to exchange your Corolla for any of
- Corvette
- Cadillac CTS/STS, in either the normal or V variants
- Cadillac XLR
- Pontiac G8 (okay, that one is half Australian, but still... it's an American brand, so it counts)
- Cobalt SS supercharged
(I could list others, but I figure those are the ones people are most emotionally attracted to)
and also pay the additional gas and insurance costs, you'd slam the door on his face?

Because, well, that's what you're saying.

[ES_Revenge]

And despite the constant advertisements about econoboxes, it doesn't prove that it's what Canadians like and prefer.
I wasn't talking about ads, I was talking about sales. I can't say anything for the relatively new super econo cars, but it's quite true that compact economy cars are Canada's best sellers.

Go out on the streets or parking lot, and count how many in ten cars are Corollas. Usually I get at least 3 to 4, if not more. And it makes sense - Corollas are comfortable, affordable, and backed up by Toyota's great quality assurance, perhaps the best brand you can get to assue you minimal maintainence in the consumer sub $40K level.
:rolleyes: Sorry rolley eye guy had to make an appearance when you put in the "best brand you can get" bit :rolleyes: Oh there he was again, lol.

Corolla ain't all that comfortable either, and I've been in leather seating Corollas (LE or whatever). I don't know exactly what you mean by "Toyota's great quality assurance" but I would assume any quality assurance by any automaker is within it's warranty of which Toyota does not really have the best of in Canada. Unless you mean some other special something or other Toyota does that I'm not aware of?



By the way, what's wrong with being conservative with the limited supply of gasoline that we have on Earth?
LOL you're one of the ppl that buys into the "limited supply" nonsense eh? The reality is the issue of extracting the supply is probably more of an issue than the l"imitedness" of the supply will ever be for perhaps thousands of years.

So instead of trying to pollute our atmosphere to a minimum, we should, like most stubborn Americans, drive the diesel-sucking big trailers around because it's "comfortable" and it makes me look "manly" or it "turns me on" because it's "exciting"? Puh-lease.
Wait what? You're actually against diesel? Surprising but yeah so am I. Diesel stinks up the place that's for sure.

Plus, I would prefer a Corolla over any American car anyday.
LOL funny. The Corolla stinks. Perhaps you would prefer one over "any American car" but c'mon that's just fanboyism. That's just silly. If you'd seriously take a Corolla over a Vette, a Viper, any Chrysler SRT, a Ford GT, or actually a lot of other American cars for that matter, then your opinion becomes pretty low in my view. The Corolla is not the end all and be all of economy cars. It's quality is no better than many other cars, American and otherwise. It's amazing how you can take a plain, fall-asleep-while-driving boring, crappy interior and exterior, car and then stick the Toyota badge on it and have people thinking it's the best thing since sliced bread :rolleyes:

I wouldn't call American cars "higher level of driving". American cars sell for low prices and their heritage and American's loyalty to their country's makes, and not for quality like Japanese and European cars.
LOL again, you're funny. American cars don't have the quality of Japanese and European cars? LMAO. Total BS. Go ahead and stereotype that and have all the people that wouldn't know the difference between a crankshaft and a flywheel believe it too, but it's definitely not true.

Another annoying thing about Canadians (or is it just Torontonians?)... They won't even back their own economy, workers, and products. Let's all buy Japanese because it's "better" :rolleyes: At least American cars sell well in the US because Americans have the pride in their own people to back their own economy.

And as for you not calling American cars a higher level of driving, that's not what I said at all--you might want to pay attention before going nuts with the Toyota fanboy stuff :rolleyes: What I said was Americans seem to have a higher "standard of driving" and what I mean by that is their major sellers are cars that are at least one step above us. Whether you want to talk about import cars or American cars, it doesn't matter, by-and-large they drive better cars. Where everyone here drives Civics, Americans drive Accords. While people here love the Corolla (as you so admitted to yourself), there people buy the Camry. So it's not just Americans buying American-branded cars, it's Americans buying cars and not being cheap asses, LOL.

And it's not like Ford doesn't have their own econobox.
Okay yeah they do, but that's still not my point. My point was while Canadians will flock to the Focus, I'm willing to bet more American car buyers have their eye on the Fusion.

Do you get what I'm trying to say yet? People here whine about fuel economy, make crazy statements like Toyota being higher quality than everyone else that ever made a car :rolleyes:, and then buy the most bargain basement cars. Surely not everyone, that's clearly not what I mean. I'm just talking about the masses in general. Again, it's all in the sales numbers--the best selling cars in Canada are compact economy-type cars, and that's all there is to it. Now even if you compare to Europe where small cars are also popular, at least their small cars are cool cars, not junk like the Echo/Yaris and the like...

[VivienM]

Another annoying thing about Canadians (or is it just Torontonians?)... They won't even back their own economy, workers, and products. Let's all buy Japanese because it's "better" :rolleyes: At least American cars sell well in the US because Americans have the pride in their own people to back their own economy.

But... American cars don't sell well in the US anymore. Congress is about to kill the Big Three automakers with a massive increase in fuel economy standards. The auto industry has almost no friends left on Capitol Hill - the Democrats are pissed off at Detroit for not making "fuel efficient cars" and contributing to global warming, the Republicans are pissed off at Detroit for having well-paid, unionized workforces. At least in Canada, when we come up with a subsidy for fuel efficient cars, it excludes the Honda Fit and includes the Oshawa-built Chevy Impala, so people in Ottawa care somewhat about domestic auto production. :) When the Americans come up with new regulations, they make sure Honda is favoured.

And not only that, but I think the domestic manufacturers' market share is higher in Canada than in the US. It's certainly true of GM, and it wouldn't surprise me if it was true of the other two...

So no, Americans are WELL on their way to destroying their own auto industry. Every month for the past... 3+ years, domestic sales drop, Toyota/Honda sales rise. The only way to escape that trend is through costly gimmicks like employee pricing for everyone.

[march9]

I will take the Cobalt over Corolla, just because it has more interesting styling and personally I would hate to buy a car from a Japanese company.
http://www.pcauto.com.cn/news/hyxw/0504/pic/050112_honda_xin_500_01.jpg
http://www.moto8.net/moto8up/2006-2/20062261926831017.jpg
http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/11_qJ4mcXlRBpk2.jpg
http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/18_OpBcT4Yu4iC9.jpg
http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/12_XKX3I2EZcHB2.jpg
http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/16_soXBwVqwIubV.jpg
http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/20_LiNEwmLxICb7.jpg
http://www.hexun.com/Images/12/39/123970.jpg

[VivienM]

I will take the Cobalt over Corolla, just because it has more interesting styling and personally I would hate to buy a car from a Japanese company.

The coupe or the sedan?

I noticed today that from the side, the Cobalt coupe looks quite similar to an Acura RSX....

[march9]

sedan, coupe looks blah.

[and or]

I will take the Cobalt over Corolla, just because it has more interesting styling and personally I would hate to buy a car from a Japanese company.

[img]http://www.pcauto.com.cn/news/hyxw/0504/pic/050112_honda_xin_500_01.jpg[/img
[img]http://www.moto8.net/moto8up/2006-2/20062261926831017.jpg[/img
[IMG]http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/11_qJ4mcXlRBpk2.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/18_OpBcT4Yu4iC9.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/12_XKX3I2EZcHB2.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/16_soXBwVqwIubV.jpg[/IMG
[IMG]http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/20_LiNEwmLxICb7.jpg[/IMG

[IMG]http://www.hexun.com/Images/12/39/123970.jpg[/IMG


What's with all the Honda crash pics? That's a pretty sick way to "argue". Are American cars immune to collisions now?

[googoo]

"What's with all the Honda crash pics? That's a pretty sick way to "argue". Are American cars immune to collisions now?"

It looks like somebody was trying to win an argument with the pictures, what you're not seeing is the Srx's, suburbans and the like that hit these guys, and everybody walked away:) .....NO, I'm just guessing .

OH, while it's true that Canadians love small cars, being cheap isn't the reason we love them. Gas is more expensive, and cars are more expensive compared to the States. So what happens is that Canadians weigh the need for more power, creature comforts, VS the need to get places, add to the faCT THAT PEOPLE IN THE sTATES USE A VEHICLE as a way to show status and you'll see why we like smaller cars.

Also remember that small cars aren't what they used to be. In the mid eighties your average small car wouldn't have Air conditioning, cruise control, power windows,locks, keyless entry all of which are pretty much standard on anything but the absolute base economy car nowadays . we also get much safer cars that back then.

Also remember that cars have grown, my 03 Civic is about the same size as the late 80's Accords.
---------------------------------------------
"I will take the Cobalt over Corolla, just because it has more interesting styling and personally I would hate to buy a car from a Japanese company."

It took Chevy 15 years to catch up the the imports, and they finally did when the Cobalt came out. Too bad Honda was at the end of a product life cycle and quickly surpassed the Cobalt with the new 06 Civic. The cobalt is still at great value at the low end

---------------------------------------------


"LOL again, you're funny. American cars don't have the quality of Japanese and European cars? LMAO. Total BS. Go ahead and stereotype that and have all the people that wouldn't know the difference between a crankshaft and a flywheel believe it too, but it's definitely not true."

I agree, GM certainly has the ability to build some great cars. The problem is they only tend to build "good enough" cars. If it weren't for the imports coming to NA 25-30 years ago we'd still be driving 78 Monte Carlos with 305 V8s all the while getting 15 miles to the gallon, messing with the carb to keep the car running and deaLING with the rusty trunk every spring.


------------------------------------------------

"I mean that came out of nowhere no? Where did I say anything about knowledge or love of the automobile? Have you been smoking drugs? LOL. Okay I did mention if you have an Echo [as your only car anyway] you proabably have no passion for cars, which I stand by. At least the Civic isn't horrible"

Lots of other posts by you in this section of the forum(yes,I searched:))

Actually my next car may be smaller than my Civic, I may look at the Opel/Saturn Astra when it comes out.

I really won't argue that domestics put out some great engines, but I'll happily take a Civic with 200 000KMs over a Cavalier with 140 000 even if the Cav is better equipped, and I suspect that lots of open minded people would agree.

Brent

[taro-chan]

I will take the Cobalt over Corolla, just because it has more interesting styling and personally I would hate to buy a car from a Japanese company.
http://xhl.bato.cn/attachments/month_0508/16_soXBwVqwIubV.jpg
I think this picture isn't a fair one. There's no way that the roof could possibly come off on its own in an accident like that. I mean, look at the windshield. That straight of a cut in the front? Impossible. The roof damage has to be done when they were rescuing them out.

A few of the other pictures posted are also questionable as they seem to have rescuers take the car part. What's the point in posting post-jaws of life pictures? Every car would look like that regardless of company.

[VivienM]

I agree, GM certainly has the ability to build some great cars. The problem is they only tend to build "good enough" cars. If it weren't for the imports coming to NA 25-30 years ago we'd still be driving 78 Monte Carlos with 305 V8s all the while getting 15 miles to the gallon, messing with the carb to keep the car running and deaLING with the rusty trunk every spring.

Hmmm, no. GM stopped building those because of government regulations. First, the US fuel economy rules (CAFE) kill the 15MPG V8s. Second, it's been impossible to pass the emissions standards with a carb for a good... 15-20 years.

So, if you want to credit someone for that, credit the US Congress and the US Environmental Protection Agency, NOT Honda, Toyota, and co.

[march9]

I think this picture isn't a fair one. There's no way that the roof could possibly come off on its own in an accident like that. I mean, look at the windshield. That straight of a cut in the front? Impossible. The roof damage has to be done when they were rescuing them out.

A few of the other pictures posted are also questionable as they seem to have rescuers take the car part. What's the point in posting post-jaws of life pictures? Every car would look like that regardless of company.

so uh..why isn't the other half of the section located immediately near the car, but somewhere 5m away from it?
http://www.pcauto.com.cn/news/hyxw/0504/pic/050112_honda_xin_500_01.jpg


American cars are not immune to collision, but their roofs dont come off and they dont break in half, or airbag doesn't work when they are suppose to.The structural rigidity for Japanese cars just isn't there.

http://img.autohome.com.cn/album/2006/1/20/d005e871-1acc-45b9-9f38-808bd213e587.jpg


Let's compare Polo with Fit
http://img3.pcpop.com/upimg3/2005Bak/12/1/0000239797.jpg
http://img3.pcpop.com/upimg3/2005Bak/12/1/0000239799.jpg
http://img3.pcpop.com/upimg3/2005Bak/12/1/0000239805.jpg

Now Fit (it's country road, so the speed is not that high)
http://img.autohome.com.cn/album/2006/1/20/2bf3c979-5d89-4df4-95ee-a6843059915c.jpg
http://img.autohome.com.cn/album/2006/1/20/e0ef85da-ef6a-444f-a0f2-1e7ad261cffb.jpg

[googoo]

the point is that the dometics had no really need to improve the quality of the car when each of them shared all of the marketplace. It was not about the engine and the carb!

B

[new_vr]

I agree, GM certainly has the ability to build some great cars. The problem is they only tend to build "good enough" cars. If it weren't for the imports coming to NA 25-30 years ago we'd still be driving 78 Monte Carlos with 305 V8s all the while getting 15 miles to the gallon, messing with the carb to keep the car running and deaLING with the rusty trunk every spring.


I am assuming by the imports, you mean the Rabbit
My 87 corolla had a carb, so it's not like toyota started that wave...
And if you are going to talk about rust...well, it's time to step off the import bandwagon right there....

[danipet]

I am sure the OP valued everybody's opinion, but if you could limit your input to opinions on what he/she was asking for, that would be great.
Thank you.

[smartcdn]

I wasn't talking about ads, I was talking about sales. I can't say anything for the relatively new super econo cars, but it's quite true that compact economy cars are Canada's best sellers.

...

Another annoying thing about Canadians (or is it just Torontonians?)... They won't even back their own economy, workers, and products. Let's all buy Japanese because it's "better" :rolleyes: At least American cars sell well in the US because Americans have the pride in their own people to back their own economy.

...small cars are also popular, at least their small cars are cool cars, not junk like the Echo/Yaris and the like...

LOL LOL LOL - Looks like ES_Revenge is pretty ignorant as well

Fact: Honda's Civic has been the best-selling vehicle (yes, vehicle - not just compact car) in Canada for the last 8 or 9 years. WHere did you think it was built? Right in Ontario.

Loos like we are get the last laugh. Next time, check up your facts before you start LOL...

Canadians are just as proud of their car: Civic - (Civic Nation includes Canada)

[VivienM]

Fact: Honda's Civic has been the best-selling vehicle (yes, vehicle - not just compact car) in Canada for the last 8 or 9 years. WHere did you think it was built? Right in Ontario.

Where do you think the PROFITS go? straight over to Japan so that Honda R&D can make more sickening things like the Ridgeline.

[googoo]

"My 87 corolla had a carb, so it's not like toyota started that wave...
And if you are going to talk about rust...well, it's time to step off the import bandwagon right there...."

That NOT the point I was trying to make, and I suspect people are trying to nitpick my statements instead of getting the point.

Anyways, I agree, ME? I'd take the Fit, although I do like the Versa too. I just think the Fit is sportier.

B

[BD006]

Where do you think the PROFITS go? straight over to Japan so that Honda R&D can make more sickening things like the Ridgeline.

I'm pretty sure the workers at the Honda plant aren't volunteering their time and don't subsequently spend their earnings in Japan.

[afong56]

I'm pretty sure the workers at the Honda plant aren't volunteering their time and don't subsequently spend their earnings in Japan.

in the same vein, last time i checked the corporate headquarters of the big 3 weren't in canada either: dearborn, auburn hills and detroit are all in michigan.

i'm not rah rah japanese automakers, but the whole 'profits going to japan' thing is a specious argument, imho. buying big 3 equals profits leaving canada just the same

where changes need to be made are in two areas: ending the protectionism that japanese automakers enjoy in their domestic market, and improving the compensation for all workers in the auto sector--that's a direct influence upon our economy

[Narci]

Interesting article.

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/nov2006/gb20061116_992654.htm?chan=search

Toyota sold about 20,000 Chevy Cavaliers in Japan in a deal that was put in place to ease trade frictions, before the venture fizzled out. "Even with our stronger dealer network, we weren't able to sell the cars," says Mitsuo Kinoshita, a Toyota executive vice-president.

[gordholio]

Where do you think the PROFITS go? straight over to Japan so that Honda R&D can make more sickening things like the Ridgeline.

Where do you think the profits from GM, Ford and Chrysler plants in Canada go.
They go to a foreign country too - the United States!
Doesn't matter to me which foreign country the profits go to as long as Canadians are employed and I'm getting a quality product.
If the American car companies would wake up and make a good quality product, people would be running to buy them.
It's their own fault that they are doing so badly.

[VivienM]

If the American car companies would wake up and make a good quality product, people would be running to buy them.

No, they wouldn't. People would look at the badge, say "ewww, American" and go buy a Honda. That's what all of you people do. You just assume the American product is not "a good quality product." When's the last time you went to a Big Three stealership? Test drove a Big Three car (note: driving some elcheapo rental special doesn't count)?

[new_vr]

That NOT the point I was trying to make, and I suspect people are trying to nitpick my statements instead of getting the point.

Actually, I was thinking more like what has toyota done to improve the automobile? They have made them more reliable, but what else?

[VivienM]

Actually, I was thinking more like what has toyota done to improve the automobile? They have made them more reliable, but what else?

That's more than what Honda has done. Honda has perverted the truck. Honda has destroyed comfortable-riding family cars. Honda has led the industry away from low-end torque and towards absurdly high redlines. Etc.

Toyota may not have done much to "improve" the automobile, but Honda has a constant record of deteriorating the automobile...

[CingKrab]

Honda has perverted the truck.

I'm not a truck fan, so I'd like to know what you're referring to.

Honda has destroyed comfortable-riding family cars

I would think suspension stiffness would be a personal preference. It's fine if you like a softer suspension, but "sportiness" sells cars. Just look at BMW.

Honda has led the industry away from low-end torque and towards absurdly high redlines.

The Japanese displacement-based tax can be blamed for this. It's cheaper in terms of taxes to build a smaller engine that revs higher than a bigger engine.

[Slippery_Pete]

No, they wouldn't. People would look at the badge, say "ewww, American" and go buy a Honda. That's what all of you people do. You just assume the American product is not "a good quality product." When's the last time you went to a Big Three stealership? Test drove a Big Three car (note: driving some elcheapo rental special doesn't count)?

I agree with you....however most of the blame for that attitude rests on the shoulders of the Big 3. They really dropped the ball in the late 70's to mid 90's. Now they are like the old adage of women in the workplace. They have to do twice as well to earn the same pay as a man. Good enough just isn't good enough, especially when you have a huge image crisis on your hands.

[VivienM]

I'm not a truck fan, so I'd like to know what you're referring to.

A truck is supposed to be body on frame, V8, with a longitudinally-mounted engine powering the rear wheels (or all wheels). That's ALWAYS defined a truck... until Honda came up with a FWD V6 minivan with a bed on the back and had the audacity to call it a truck.

And since the magazines have always gobbled up what Honda serves up... well, suddenly it's the class leader. Please.

I would think suspension stiffness would be a personal preference. It's fine if you like a softer suspension, but "sportiness" sells cars. Just look at BMW.

That's what I thought... until riding around a bit in a friend's parents' 323i. The 323i handles minor road imperfections very well. The Accord (and the Chevy Cobalt, just so you don't think I'm biased - GM ought to be ashamed to sell that thing) transmit every little bump in the road to the occupants.

I'm not sure stiffness is the proper word, which may cause some of the confusion. My problem is with how the vibration from hitting cracks on the road is transmitted to the occupants. I used to think I had a problem with suspensions tuned for sportiness... until I was pleasantly surprised by a BMW. I have another friend who has had Saabs with the sport packages, and HIS cars have ridden fine, too. So there's something about Accords, Cobalts, and other such things that causes this problem, and I don't know what it is...

The Japanese displacement-based tax can be blamed for this. It's cheaper in terms of taxes to build a smaller engine that revs higher than a bigger engine.

European displacement taxes can be blamed for that, too... but it's funny how North America is a HUGE vehicle market and WE get inferior engines that are designed around other countries' regulatory practices.

[VivienM]

I agree with you....however most of the blame for that attitude rests on the shoulders of the Big 3. They really dropped the ball in the late 70's to mid 90's. Now they are like the old adage of women in the workplace. They have to do twice as well to earn the same pay as a man. Good enough just isn't good enough, especially when you have a huge image crisis on your hands.

And they CAN'T do twice as well (and keep doing it for a significant amount of time)... with the legacy costs, the US government about to screw them hard on fuel economy regulations, and everything else? Impossible.

[jappaswat]

And they CAN'T do twice as well (and keep doing it for a significant amount of time)... with the legacy costs, the US government about to screw them hard on fuel economy regulations, and everything else? Impossible.

i know you are saying in the big 3's pov, but it's just not convincing enough to beg for people to give a mediocore product a chance. im sure sayingtwice aswell is only a figure of speech.. they just need to be impressive rather than bribing customers (the "employee sales event" just aren't working!! it's killing the image and the company)

by the way, i think the whole argument on what country makes the best cars is pretty narrow minded. it is a myth japanese makes superior cars. however in consumer reports 2006, one of the most credible product magazine, did a issue on 2006 models. one section is on reliability issues. guess what, both toyota and honda goes neck to neck in terms of fewest car defects/break downs in 10 years, while the rest of auto makers fight for 3rd place (almost 2 times more frequent then toyota and honda). it's just happens these two company are doing so well and they are both from japan.

[googoo]

"A truck is supposed to be body on frame, V8, with a longitudinally-mounted engine powering the rear wheels (or all wheels). That's ALWAYS defined a truck..."

YEP, but Honda made a vehicle that suits the market PERFECTLY, other than a miss on the styling

See, you forgot the one aspect of what trucks are, and trucks were always used for work, not for hauling kids and grocery shopping back in the 70's and 80's, and when that changed so did the definition of "truck"

Let's hope the domestics can deal with their legacy costs. When that happens the extra $ should make for quite a fight.

Honeslty though I wish I was part of the legacy costs:) Some of the deals were fantastic.

B

[elty]

A truck is supposed to be body on frame, V8, with a longitudinally-mounted engine powering the rear wheels (or all wheels). That's ALWAYS defined a truck... until Honda came up with a FWD V6 minivan with a bed on the back and had the audacity to call it a truck.


We also never need more than 640 kb memory.

[and or]

Know why they call it the Pontiac Wave?

Cause when ya buy it, ya wave goodbye to your hard-earned dollars...





For the record, here's the alternate punchlines:

- Swiftly depreciates
- Sends you into a Fit
- Brings Ad-Versa-ty to your driving

[ES_Revenge]

LOL LOL LOL - Looks like ES_Revenge is pretty ignorant as well

Fact: Honda's Civic has been the best-selling vehicle (yes, vehicle - not just compact car) in Canada for the last 8 or 9 years. WHere did you think it was built? Right in Ontario.

Loos like we are get the last laugh. Next time, check up your facts before you start LOL...

Canadians are just as proud of their car: Civic - (Civic Nation includes Canada)

LOL wait, a few pages have gone by since I last checked and I can't be bothered to address everything I had comment on at this point, but before you go thinking I'm a dumbass (or ignorant LOL) ;) rest assured I would definitely rather buy an assembled-in-Canada Civic than one assembled in Japan. Plus, we have to think about parts content of course (how much actually comes from NA as opposed to overseas) but that's another story. But it's not uncommon to find people saying the exact opposite like "oh this Honda is built in Japan so it's better than this one built in Canada/US" :rolleyes: My whole point was that I actually don't think that's true at all (actually I know it's not true) and personally I would rather buy the made-in-Canada Honda product than the Made-in-Japan one. But again don't get me wrong about the Civic, LOL--I'm not really a fan of it anyway hahaha.

Also if you go back those "8 or 9 years" and combine the sales of the Cavy/Sunfire (since they are essentially the same car) the J-body outsold the Civic in most of those years, quite handily I believe ;) (You could even throw in the sales of the EL I think.)

I'll happily take a Civic with 200 000KMs over a Cavalier with 140 000 even if the Cav is better equipped, and I suspect that lots of open minded people would agree.

Brent
The irony of that is pretty hillarious if you ask me. Open minded? LMAO. I think you've got that backwards. My whole point was that people blindly accept "imports" as having higher quality as some kind of given (which is really not true) and based on that stereotype/misconception/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, they would make the decision you stated above; not because they have an "open mind" :rolleyes:

[googoo]

"Also if you go back those "8 or 9 years" and combine the sales of the Cavy/Sunfire (since they are essentially the same car) the J-body outsold the Civic in most of those years, quite handily I believe"

That is most definitely true, Cavaliers accounted for about 80% of Civic sales, and the sunfire another 55%, that's because of GMs ability to offer a $11 000 car with auto and air.

Even I'll admit that was a great deal. I even had a friends parents buy one as a beater so they wouldn't put lots of KMs on the MB's they owned at the time.

"The irony of that is pretty hillarious if you ask me. Open minded? LMAO. I think you've got that backwards. My whole point was that people blindly accept "imports" as having higher quality as some kind of given (which is really not true) and based on that stereotype/misconception/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, they would make the decision you stated above; not because they have an "open mind" "

It may seem hilarious, but if I walked up to somebody and asked them "see this 10 year old Civic lx, and this 10 year old z24, the Civic has 200 000, and the Cav has 140 000, both have been maintained properly. which would you drive?? I suspect the people that want all the toys would go for the Cav, and the people that want something reliable would go for the Civic.

I've honestly never seen somebody move from an import(Honda, Toyota) BACK to a domestic, unless there needs/pocketbook changes greatly. I'd happily buy a Pontiac Montana for $24 over the Odyssey(sp) for $45, but that comes with the perceived(;) ) lack of quality, but I expect that.

It's taken Honda/Toyota MANY years to build a reputation for building quality cars, and it took domestic fans many years to realize that the domestics builders weren't building up to the same standard. Although that has GM, Ford and chrysler have done a great job in improving the quality in the cars, it will still take a while(and good word of mouth) for the improvement to permeate the marketplace.

"Open minded? LMAO."

Yes, you still see lots of people buying domestics because they are a known quantity, history in the family, parents think they are supporting jobs in NA, crap like that.

Brent

[Hybrid88]

For those who have recently purchased either the Swift, Fit, Yaris, Versa and other small hatches, can you guys share your off the lot prices and the details of your vehicle in regards to trim, packages and options.

[gzajay]

2007 Swift+ -- AT/AC, $16000 off the lot price

[bpopd]

Nissan Versa got the worst ranking for braking. Couldnt stop if your life depended on it.

+1 for Honda fit.

[plucky duck]

'01 330 Coupe (m/t) - I think the tank is actually 60L, though I seldom drive it right down to empty.... I've kept it properly maintained over the years which probably helps a bit, but I know a few people who get better mileage. I also live fairly close to the 401 so probably do 75% highway, however I'm also pretty heavy on the gas around town (acceleration, not top speed ;)). Best recorded mileage to date was 785 kms on one tank (running on fumes at the end I'm sure!), almost all highway mileage. My highway mileage generally sits a bit below 8L / 100km, and overall average is a bit below 9L/100km, unless I only drive around town - then I'm up around 10! ....

As odd as it sounds, the 3L I6 BMW engines typically get much better mileage then their 2.5L I6s (ie 330 vs 325). I suspect the extra torque is more efficient at moving the vehicle up to speed; quite possibly the problem (if you want to call it that) that your TSX has... I had a 5th gen Honda Prelude (ie high revving i4) and noticed virtually no change in overall gas consumption moving to the BMW....

I share your view. I've driven my dad's 02 Oldsmobile Intrigue (V6 DOHC 3.5L) and my 01 Prelude (I4 DOHC 2.2L) and find that on the highway traveling the same destination point (Wpg to Calgary) the Prelude actually costs more on gas. The lack of torque is greatly evident and amplified after driving the Intrigue. No comparison. I had to revv the hell out of the Prelude, whereas in the Intrigue if I don't pay attention and hardly even trying I'm up to 160+ and not even noticing.

All the torque is at the lowend with the V6, without even having to push the engine you're already up and moving, whereas the smaller I4 engines you really have to push them to get anywhere. Maybe not for older Civics since they're so lightweight. But cars in general these days are turning into porkers :razz: :lol:

[hagbard]

have you tried the smart car?
http://www.thesmart.ca/index.cfm?ID=4720

Own one, its great. But you can't haul much in it. :lol:

[Asad_A203]

+1 for the Fit. Honda for the 08 model managed to squeeze out a few more MPG to make it eligible for the government rebate for the manual transmission but they have also been issuing their own rebate because of a dispute with the goverment. Their main argument was the Yaris lacked safety features which made it lighter thus more MPG.

I personally don't like the style of the Fit, reminds me of a baby Odessey Van, but the car is suppose to be alot of fun to drive.

Suzuki Swift shares the same platform with GM for the Geo Metro so I am assuming the Wave is just a rebadged Swift.

Wow, what a suprise to see a domestic vs imports again argument. I think it is best if people would just provide suggestions about the cars the OP cares about rather than arguing about why he isn't buying a domestic.

[Asad_A203]

A truck is supposed to be body on frame, V8, with a longitudinally-mounted engine powering the rear wheels (or all wheels). That's ALWAYS defined a truck... until Honda came up with a FWD V6 minivan with a bed on the back and had the audacity to call it a truck.

And since the magazines have always gobbled up what Honda serves up... well, suddenly it's the class leader. Please.



That's what I thought... until riding around a bit in a friend's parents' 323i. The 323i handles minor road imperfections very well. The Accord (and the Chevy Cobalt, just so you don't think I'm biased - GM ought to be ashamed to sell that thing) transmit every little bump in the road to the occupants.

I'm not sure stiffness is the proper word, which may cause some of the confusion. My problem is with how the vibration from hitting cracks on the road is transmitted to the occupants. I used to think I had a problem with suspensions tuned for sportiness... until I was pleasantly surprised by a BMW. I have another friend who has had Saabs with the sport packages, and HIS cars have ridden fine, too. So there's something about Accords, Cobalts, and other such things that causes this problem, and I don't know what it is...



European displacement taxes can be blamed for that, too... but it's funny how North America is a HUGE vehicle market and WE get inferior engines that are designed around other countries' regulatory practices.

To comment on the Saab and BMW; the Accord does not compete with any of those. A good comparision would be a Taurus or a Malibu. I have driven both and for a pretty good amount of time (Taurus was my training car) and can tell you the ride in the Taurus and Malibu is alot crappier than the the Accord; just from my experience. If you want to compare the Accord to a BMW or a Saab; compare the Acura TSX or the Euro Accord. You will see that it "ride" will be just as good (alot better than the Saab, and crappier than the BMW).

I know this post will be ironic to my other post about going off the topic; but who cares about the definition of a truck. I highly doubt people who buy a Ridgeline will be doing anything that would define it as such. I also highly doubt Ridgeline will be entering markets where actual trucks are needed so there should be no fear of Honda redefining the term “truck”. Honda is in the business of making cash, so is everyone else. If they can offer something unique that redefines a segment where people wouldn't even actually need a truck (by your definition); they have successfully completed what they wanted to do. If Honda and Toyota become the market leaders in all these segments you have to wonder why. Automotive critics are not “sheep” and will not follow a consumer trend. There are credited source who I would place a greater emphasis on their opinion than anyone’s opinion here on RFD (unless someone here is an automotive critic). I highly doubt people who have experience with a wide range of vehicle will all confirm to the same opinion of a Japanese vehicle being a market leader; but it is.

You are placing a big emphasis on the idiocy of the consumer market and buying the "Japan = Good, America = Bad" persona in a lot of posts. I agree with you to a certain point; sure lots of consumer have developed this ideology but it will only affect the market by 5-10% at best. Consumers are not complete idiots. This would play an import role if a person who was in a market for mid size sedan and the domestic offering was on par with a Japanese offering; they would likely purchase the Japanese car. This scenario was EXACTLY the same when Honda and Toyota entered the market; so how did they become market leaders? Toyota and Honda didn’t come into the market with arms wide open from the American market. They had to earn their reputation and earn each sale they make. They constantly developed vehicles that surpassed their American counterparts which made people loyal to Ford & GM switch brands.

I like how you said the thing about people criticizing a car with an American logo; picture what people thought of a Toyota back in the 1970s? If Ford & GM want consumers to buy their vehicles again they will need to show the consumer why they should by surpassing the competition rather than just being on par with it. You can’t move forward without looking back; and that is what Ford and GM need to do. A perfect example is the Infiniti G35; ask anyone in the market for a luxury car back in 1999 if they would consider a G20 or an I30 and I guarantee all of them would say “HELL NO”! Ask the same question now about the G35 and you are looking at 60-70% considering the Infiniti G35. Infiniti was a luxury segment of a failing brand; they had no car that made you scream. But they got back their segment, they designed an all new platform, a radical design that surpassed the competition, a sporty drive, offered more standard features than the competition, and made the car head in its own direction rather than following the Acura TL and Lexus IS route. If you can’t relate to an Infiniti G35, look at the Cadillac CTS. Same story on how they transformed the market segment of Cadillac from senior citizens to a wide range of people.
So enough with placing emphasis on branding, if domestics would create a car that was a breakthrough they would have the market, even more for people who go by the saying “It is built here, so I am only buying cars that support my own economy” (even though anyone with a knowledge of how the economy operates understands this ideology is dated; we have entered the era of globalization!!!!). Lot of my friends share this ideology and hate a lot of cars I think are market leaders (kind of like you, haha), but we can still agree on what is a great car (ie. Corvette, Supra) is.

Apologies for this long a$$$ post.

[VivienM]

To comment on the Saab and BMW; the Accord does not compete with any of those. A good comparision would be a Taurus or a Malibu. I have driven both and for a pretty good amount of time (Taurus was my training car) and can tell you the ride in the Taurus and Malibu is alot crappier than the the Accord; just from my experience. If you want to compare the Accord to a BMW or a Saab; compare the Acura TSX or the Euro Accord. You will see that it "ride" will be just as good (alot better than the Saab, and crappier than the BMW).

I think you misunderstood the nature of the problem and the comparisons I was making.

My problem with the Accord (and the Chevy Cobalt/Pontiac G5, too) is the HORRIBLE ride, namely that every bump/crack/etc in the road is transmitted to the occupants. I really doubt that the Taurus is that way; dunno about the Malibu. Camrys aren't like this, neither are my usual GM W bodies. The Taurus/Ws/Camrys may be overly floaty for your taste, but that's an entirely different problem.

I used to think, being a bit more naive, that cars tuned for sportier handling had to be this way. But neither Saabs with sport suspensions nor BMWs (which I think you would agree are 'sportier' than the Accords?) exhibit this problem. So clearly, such a harsh ride is NOT necessary for sportier handling. The only reason I'm comparing the Accord to those two is because, under my PREVIOUS theory, the Saabs/BMWs should be WORSE than the Accord, but they're not. And sure, it's not a perfect comparison, but... well, I can't pick what cars my friends drive. :)

So, again, I ask, what is up with the Accord? What is up with those cars that ride like go-karts without shocks?

[Asad_A203]

Hmm, well I am not sure exactly then. Haha, our BMW used to offer a better drive as far as I can remember but we threw 19s (we shouldve dubbed it) and everything has changed in terms of how it drives. I haven't driven the Malibu for a while but I will let you know how it goes when i do. I don't feel that with the Accord when it used to be my daily driver, but then again I was accustomed to lowered integras...

[cipher]

I will take the Cobalt over Corolla, just because it has more interesting styling and personally I would hate to buy a car from a Japanese company.



What a stupid thing to do. Anyone can selective post the worst auto crashes to try to skew everyone's opinions on the build/safety of any automobile.

A Honda Civic
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/7-11-07-civic-pic-3.gif

A Chevy Avalanche
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/7-8-07-avalanche-crash-1.gif

A Chevy Pickup
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/6-10-07-tree-crash-1.gif

Toyota Prius
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/5-26-07-toyota-prius-crash.gif

Plymouth Breeze
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/5-14-07-breeze-crash-4.gif

Pontiac Grand Am
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/5-9-07-pontiac-1.gif

Acura RSX
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/2-7-07-rice-rocket.gif

Chevy Malibu
http://www.car-accidents.com/2007-crash-pics/1-22-07-malibu-crash.jpg

Honda Accord
http://www.car-accidents.com/2006-Auto-pics/9-16-06_honda_crash.jpg

[Jon Lai]

I will take the Cobalt over Corolla, just because it has more interesting styling and personally I would hate to buy a car from a Japanese company.

I hate to say it but you're really stupid if you're trying to back up your claim with a few pictures.

[Beradon]

If you're considering a Swift, why not pay a few thou more and get an SX4. A bit roomier and AWD baby!

[Slippery_Pete]

If you're considering a Swift, why not pay a few thou more and get an SX4. A bit roomier and AWD baby!

Well the base SX4 in Canada is not AWD. So you would have to pony up a few grand more for AWD. But I agree I would much rather have an SX4, although I hear its a bit underpowered than it should be.

[cipher]

Well the base SX4 in Canada is not AWD. So you would have to pony up a few grand more for AWD. But I agree I would much rather have an SX4, although I hear its a bit underpowered than it should be.


The AWD in the SX4 takes up a lot of space in the back. That's what I noticed when I sat in one.

[Beradon]

Well the base SX4 in Canada is not AWD. So you would have to pony up a few grand more for AWD. But I agree I would much rather have an SX4, although I hear its a bit underpowered than it should be.Underpowered compared to what? At 143hp and 136 ft-lbs of torque it sure has alot more than a Fit, Wave, Swift or a Versa. Of course if you were talking about an AWD Subaru Impreza or Ford Fusion then that would be a different matter since we're talking about compact hatches.

[radeonboy]

just wanted to add this point regarding the Honda Fit.

The Honda Fit can hold its own against the current competition, yet the Honda Fit is old already. This thing has been on the market overseas for about 5 years.

To see it hold its own on comparos and win them is amazing considering its been out for 5 years.

[ingress]

I actullay happen to own a 2007 AVeo 5 and 2007 Honda Fit

I should have got 2 fits, the fit accelerates better, handles better, has more power, more room, is more comfortable, better service from the dealer ...


the only plusses that I give to the aveo is that it came standard with floor mats and an MP3 deck

[radeonboy]

I actullay happen to own a 2007 AVeo 5 and 2007 Honda Fit

I should have got 2 fits, the fit accelerates better, handles better, has more power, more room, is more comfortable, better service from the dealer ...


the only plusses that I give to the aveo is that it came standard with floor mats and an MP3 deck

Wasn't the Aveo made by Daewoo? I thought GM had a partnership with Daewoo to make their small cars.

Anyway, you still can have 2 Fits! Just sell the Aveo ASAP, you still can have a high resale value since its new. :cheesygri

[Maxspeed]

the fit body is too narrow and not good in corners...

[cipher]

the fit body is too narrow and not good in corners...


Not good in corners? You obviously haven't driven a Fit.

[radeonboy]

the fit body is too narrow and not good in corners...

Thats funny because all the comparos I've read said that the Fit handles like a pro in the corners...

It's faster than the Corvette Z06 in the slalom according to C/D.

[cipher]

Thats funny because all the comparos I've read said that the Fit handles like a pro in the corners...

It's faster than the Corvette Z06 in the slalom according to C/D.

I have a Fit and the thing takes corners like it's glued to the road. I love the handling of this little car. The steering is precise and the handling makes you very confident.

[VivienM]

Wasn't the Aveo made by Daewoo? I thought GM had a partnership with Daewoo to make their small cars.

GM OWNS Daewoo now... or at least a large enough stake in Daewoo.

[Maxspeed]

Not good in corners? You obviously haven't driven a Fit.

I test drove the fit in 2006 and wasnt impressed at all....The interior was roomy but felt the car was underpowered and wasnt tight in the corners....

[cipher]

I test drove the fit in 2006 and wasnt impressed at all....The interior was roomy but felt the car was underpowered and wasnt tight in the corners....


Compared to?

[Maxspeed]

compared to a mazda 3....

[BD006]

compared to a mazda 3....

Wrong class.

[radeonboy]

compared to a mazda 3....

no wonder. lol. Mazda 3 is not even the same class as the Fit

[cipher]

compared to a mazda 3....


Mazda 3 Hatchback - Base $20,995
Honda Fit - Base $14,980

Do the math....you need to compare to the Nissan Versa, Toyota Yaris...etc.

[gordholio]

Mazda 3 Hatchback - Base $20,995
Honda Fit - Base $14,980

Do the math....you need to compare to the Nissan Versa, Toyota Yaris...etc.

Compare the Hyundai Accent as well; I've seen a few around and it's nice for one of these econoboxes. Nicer looking on the outside than a "Fit".
The Fit looks like a Suzuki from a few years back.

[Slippery_Pete]

Underpowered compared to what? At 143hp and 136 ft-lbs of torque it sure has alot more than a Fit, Wave, Swift or a Versa. Of course if you were talking about an AWD Subaru Impreza or Ford Fusion then that would be a different matter since we're talking about compact hatches.

But it is heavier than a Fit, Wave, Swift or Versa.....don't just look at hp man.

[Beradon]

But it is heavier than a Fit, Wave, Swift or Versa.....don't just look at hp man.But it has AWD which the Fit, Wave, Swift or Versa.....don't just look at the weight differences, dude.

[radeonboy]

Compare the Hyundai Accent as well; I've seen a few around and it's nice for one of these econoboxes. Nicer looking on the outside than a "Fit".
The Fit looks like a Suzuki from a few years back.

Ya the Suzuki Aerio I thought was pretty decent. I don't know why they stopped making the hatchback. I guess they chose the wrong time to release it because there wasn't a competitve B market a few years back. But now its really flying.

Aerio is now only a sedan...

[Slippery_Pete]

But it has AWD which the Fit, Wave, Swift or Versa.....don't just look at the weight differences, dude.

The AWD is NOT free.....you pay for it.....DUDE.

[Beradon]

The AWD is NOT free.....you pay for it.....DUDE.You pay for it BIG time when you take a corner with that FWD compact hatch and slide off the road because your rear end decided to go in a different direction. Given a choice the AWD is worth the extra bucks.

[herbie08]

The Suzuki SX4 got an AWD available, it is not near the price range of any other AWD. Is it worth it? Seriously looking to buy this car. Any feedback.

[cipher]

You pay for it BIG time when you take a corner with that FWD compact hatch and slide off the road because your rear end decided to go in a different direction. Given a choice the AWD is worth the extra bucks.

Learn how to drive dude. I can take a AWD and make it slide off the road too...just go fast enough and it will happen. I've owned FWD, AWD and one RWD car. I've never slid off the road in any of them because I drive according to the conditions of the road. ABS brakes? I've never had it on any of the vehicles I've driven in the winter (This coming winter will be the 1st time with a car with ABS...since I just bought a Honda Fit). I've also never rear-ended anyone EVER...summer or winter. It's all about paying attention to the road and common sense.

P.S. I live in Winnipeg...so glare ice is a common occurence in the winter.

[radeonboy]

Learn how to drive dude. I can take a AWD and make it slide off the road too...just go fast enough and it will happen. I've owned FWD, AWD and one RWD car. I've never slid off the road in any of them because I drive according to the conditions of the road. ABS brakes? I've never had it on any of the vehicles I've driven in the winter (This coming winter will be the 1st time with a car with ABS...since I just bought a Honda Fit). I've also never rear-ended anyone EVER...summer or winter. It's all about paying attention to the road and common sense.

P.S. I live in Winnipeg...so glare ice is a common occurence in the winter.

Very true. Good post.

Accidents are usally maybe 80% caused by drivers themselves. One of the 2 parties involved screwed up.

Technology such as ABS, Traction Control, ESC, etc is meant to help the driver, but its not like it can eliminate you from spinning out or save you from an accident.

The driver has to save itself from doing something stupid to spin out or be involved in an accident. You gotta use common sense when driving like cipher said. Don't be taking curve @ like 80-100kmh...ECS or AWD won't protect you from crashing into something...

[onecoolloser]

You pay for it BIG time when you take a corner with that FWD compact hatch and slide off the road because your rear end decided to go in a different direction. Given a choice the AWD is worth the extra bucks.

It all depends on the tires you have on your car. Good tires = Good handling.

Any car can slide off the road, it all depends on how you drive.

[Slippery_Pete]

You pay for it BIG time when you take a corner with that FWD compact hatch and slide off the road because your rear end decided to go in a different direction. Given a choice the AWD is worth the extra bucks.

I'm not saying it isn't, but eveyone here talks like a few thousand dollars (probably around 5 thousand) is just chump change. Anyhow, this has nothing to do with my original post where I stated, "I heard the SX4 is alittle underpowered." I also said I would prefer an SX4 AWD. But I am not the OP and you don't know what his finances are....

[JumpinBug]

Could one of you Fit owners please share your insurance costs? Especially if you're in BC, thanks.

I miss the insurance costs of my old Mazda hatchback, and am a little scared of what the Fit may cost to insure.

[Wall Man]

Could one of you Fit owners please share your insurance costs? Especially if you're in BC, thanks.

I miss the insurance costs of my old Mazda hatchback, and am a little scared of what the Fit may cost to insure.

I'm basically paying $1,600 with my 43% discount.

[gordholio]

My car I just bought doesn't have anti-lock brakes, nor traction control.
Yet, I feel safe because I'm a defensive driver - follow at a safe distance, don't speed, check my mirrors all the time, etc.
It's nice to have all the gadgets, but driving properly is much more important in my opinion.

[cipher]

Could one of you Fit owners please share your insurance costs? Especially if you're in BC, thanks.

I miss the insurance costs of my old Mazda hatchback, and am a little scared of what the Fit may cost to insure.


$1383 in Manitoba and that's with a 25% discount for a good driving record.

[JumpinBug]

^Geez, there's a reason to live in Manitoba. ;)

Thanks to cipher and Wall Man.

I'm also around the 40% range, and am quite surprised by the prices people are paying! Last year I paid $1000 to insure my 10+ year old piece of junk, so am very surprised that I wouldn't be paying that much more for a much more appealing shiny new car.

Thanks!

[SecretAgent]

'Honda Fit vs Pontiac Wave vs Suzuki Swift vs Nissa Versa'

avoid these cars at all costs.... or how little it costs u to own one

[onecoolloser]

I wonder where the OP went.

[Wall Man]

'Honda Fit vs Pontiac Wave vs Suzuki Swift vs Nissa Versa'

avoid these cars at all costs.... or how little it costs u to own one

Would you care to elaborate on why these should be avoided?

[cipher]

Would you care to elaborate on why these should be avoided?


Cuz he's insecure and needs a "manly" car not a itty bitty car.

[clergykid]

Honda Fit in orange! That's purely personal preference though, I like the fit more than the other choices.

And Fit have lots of aftermarket parts, can even supercharge it, hahahaha

[radeonboy]

Honda Fit in orange! That's purely personal preference though, I like the fit more than the other choices.

And Fit have lots of aftermarket parts, can even supercharge it, hahahaha

Imola Orange (rare too) is only offered in the Sport model -- which sucks...

[cipher]

Imola Orange (rare too) is only offered in the Sport model -- which sucks...


Actually....it's Blaze Orange Metallic...like mine...

http://gummyrabbit.smugmug.com/photos/176671884-M.jpg

[Akagi]

I was in a versa for the first time.

Basic car, but sufficient. Very roomy, and fun! 6 speed!!!!!!. Microsuede seats with memory foam seats were very comfy. Gas milage isnt that great though, compared to fit and yaris.

IT would be between a Fit and versa for me. i like how the fit has abs standard and the high # of airbags, along with a lot of other things standard.

[boneca]

Anyone here leasing a Versa or a Fit…what are your monthly payments (approx.)? Please state if it’s manual or automatic.

Thanks.

[JumpinBug]

Just go to honda.ca and put in your info into the build and price your Fit thingy. You'd likely be paying close to sticker, so it'll give you a very accurate idea on what your payments will be, and you can play with the numbers to see where you want to be at.

[sounar]

well contrary to what car handles better or worse..or which car has the most gadgets equipped with...there are only two basics when purchasing a car for a down to earth buyer... it comes down too reliability and resale value.. American producers for many years have shown they have neither on their side, which is precisely why they are in so much trouble financially(although im sure their are other reasons, $80/h for assembly workers!). I know an individual who use to work at a production plant that provided car parts for GM, Honda, and Toyota manufacturers. He stated the parts GM would use to produce their cars the Japanese would not even consider taking such grade level parts into consideration( they were cheaper in price and of course quality), in fact they were a whole two grade levels lower than what Japanese use for their automotive's production..

[googoo]

Welcome back to late 2007 ..... remember George Bush Jr ....eeewwww!

[ES_Revenge]

I know an individual who use to work at a production plant that provided car parts for GM, Honda, and Toyota manufacturers. He stated the parts GM would use to produce their cars the Japanese would not even consider taking such grade level parts into consideration( they were cheaper in price and of course quality), in fact they were a whole two grade levels lower than what Japanese use for their automotive's production..
:rolleyes: Total nonsense. The fact that your brother's uncle's sister's boyfriend's dog works somewhere and said something is just as credible as it sounds. If I had a dollar for everyone that "knows someone" that "works somewhere" that "said ______" about whatever...I tell you....

Nevermind that the "GM" car from the thread title isn't even a real GM, it's a Korean import Daewoo POS. But despite that, it doesn't make the Fit, Versa and Yaris any less of POSes themselves anyway.

It's not really surprising you bumped a 2yr old thread given such a useless post :rolleyes:

[sounar]

:rolleyes: Total nonsense. The fact that your brother's uncle's sister's boyfriend's dog works somewhere and said something is just as credible as it sounds. If I had a dollar for everyone that "knows someone" that "works somewhere" that "said ______" about whatever...I tell you....

Nevermind that the "GM" car from the thread title isn't even a real GM, it's a Korean import Daewoo POS. But despite that, it doesn't make the Fit, Versa and Yaris any less of POSes themselves anyway.

It's not really surprising you bumped a 2yr old thread given such a useless post :rolleyes:

say what you may and no need for sarcasm....American automakers cars were never considered reliable in overall, and it shows with their resale value..you can say otherwise... and no , he wasent a sister boyfirend dog walker, he was my father's close friend who worked their for a few years before they laid him off.

[sbobcat]

say what you may and no need for sarcasm....American automakers cars were never considered reliable in overall, and it shows with their resale value..you can say otherwise... and no , he wasent a sister boyfirend dog walker, he was my father's close friend who worked their for a few years before they laid him off.

Yeah. your father maybe just brought/owned a jap car and he was "walk along" with him, Plus he is laid off from there.....so he fall into "sister boyfriend dog walker" category.

Wave is not made by GM and what is 80/hr unionized, American worker to do with the car quality anyway. It is all about design and processing engineering nowadays. The big 3 has problem now because they built their plants much over capacity compare to the jap in here. Overall cost if they both run 100% is about the same. the Oshawa Gm plants is top2 and top3 among NA car all manufacture plant in quality and efficiency by JD power! Surprise?!

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/General-Motors-Of-Canada-Limited-1007499.html

[new_vr]

.there are only two basics when purchasing a car for a down to earth buyer...
If you really want to talk down to earth...then you need to look at total cost of ownership, not just two aspects of it.
Things like insurance, fuel use, cost of repairs, resale, initial price, reliability...these all matter. You can't really just cherry pick one or two.
Of course, then everyone would be driving corollas...what a terrible world that would be.

[sterdeus]

say what you may and no need for sarcasm....American automakers cars were never considered reliable in overall, and it shows with their resale value..you can say otherwise... and no , he wasent a sister boyfirend dog walker, he was my father's close friend who worked their for a few years before they laid him off.

Resale value is not always attributed to quality. It's also attributed to consumer perception. And its very unfair to lump all American automakers into one category. In fact, some individual American company's car fair better in quality than a Japanese company's car.

[Piro21]

You pay for it BIG time when you take a corner with that FWD compact hatch and slide off the road because your rear end decided to go in a different direction. Given a choice the AWD is worth the extra bucks.

The rear end of a FWD car is unpowered, and will stay on course unless conditions are too icy for the tires to gain traction. If you're in a situation where you spin a FWD car you can rest assured you'd have spun much earlier in an AWD car due to the rear wheels being powered (and thus able to break traction on their own). FWD cars understeer, RWD cars oversteer, AWD cars aren't that easy to predict. If it's full-time like a Subaru's, you're likely to just go sideways, but if it's one of those partial AWD systems that are FWD most of the time you're likely to do a bit of understeer, then correct just in time for the rear wheels to kick in and break traction on the back. AWD will get you out of a situation where your two front wheels are stuck in the snow but the rear wheels are planted, or where you need to get going from a stop on slightly slippery ground (4 tires distributing the same thrust as 2 normally would), but it won't save your ass in a crash situation. You're actually more likely to crash due to the overconfidence it gives you.