How can this dealer be so dumb?

[VivienM]

This story is so ridiculous it may entertain people... and serve as a warning to some.

As most of you are by now only too well aware, I am a fan of GM W cars... and since I tend to follow my own advice where feasible, I've been looking at the used market half-thinking about buying one.

5-6 months ago, I noticed one listed in autotrader for a price that seemed a tiny bit cheap compared to most asking prices for similar year/mileage. Seller is a GM dealer somewhere in the GTA. There's a single picture, not very flattering, of the car under a big pile of snow. No "Optimum" graphic. Like most GM dealers (and other new car dealers?), they also have a Boost listings site, but THIS particular car was not listed there. This seemed odd.

A few months later, the car shows up, much cleaned looking with fresh pictures, on the Boost site. Price is still the same. The dealer lists the condition as "excellent" in those tables below the pictures. I continue to be puzzled. I run the VIN through the government's DriveClean history site. Two tests shown, one in May 2005 and one in June 2006. Hmmm.

Then about two weeks ago, the price drops another $2K. This intrigues me some more. I post on RFD asking for a Carfax. A friendly member responds (thanks!!). Carfax is clean, but the last mention is that it was "registered as personal vehicle" in May 2005. We're now in June 2007. How very puzzling. I consider going to that dealer. (As I have no car now, and am only half-interested, going would be inconvenient)

Then because I was puzzling over something in the pictures, I send the link to a clueful friend. At first he finds that what was puzzling me is nothing and seems to think the car is in good condition... but then he looks at some of the other pictures more carefully, and notices firstly obvious evidence of repainting in the middle of the rear right door panel. Then he notices crunched up sheet metal around the C pillar. Obviously this car had been in some kind of accident...

So, basically, these people (a franchised GM new car dealer) are advertising as being in "excellent" condition (but not certified - they're obviously not that foolish) in every respect a car that has accident damage that can be seen in their own pictures. I would have expected this from a curbsider, but...

[V A N Q U I S H]

Why didn't the accident show up in CarFax?

[CRXGSR]

only claims which have been reported to insurance show up.

For example, if you write off your car, but don't report it, it's like it never happened....

[Pete_Coach]

So, why would the dealer be dumb? This is a car that is for sale and 90% of the people would not have gone through the trouble you did. Still, after all this, you have only an opinion (perhaps a very good one) that the car has been in an "accident" as no official paperwork indicates it has.
As in all things, buyer beware.

[mdc]

Why didn't the accident show up in CarFax?

why do people think CarFax is even useful anymore?

With the insurance system the way it is, people only put in claims when it is absolutely necessary because every claim you make jacks your rates and it usually isn't worth it.

When you pay for the repair yourself, it doesn't show up on CarFax ...

When is the last time you made a claim? I bet there are people on this forum that have been driving for over 10 years and have never even thought of making a claim

[VivienM]

So, why would the dealer be dumb? This is a car that is for sale and 90% of the people would not have gone through the trouble you did. Still, after all this, you have only an opinion (perhaps a very good one) that the car has been in an "accident" as no official paperwork indicates it has.
As in all things, buyer beware.

Well, what I think is dumb is checking off all the "excellent" boxes to describe the condition of a car where you can see there's something wrong from the PICTURES. Surely anybody who shows up there is going to notice the problem within 5 minutes...

[VivienM]

Why didn't the accident show up in CarFax?

If I had to guess, I think that after getting hit (in the rear passenger door area... so not something that will readily make it impossible to drive the thing), the previous owner drove to this dealer and traded in the damaged car on a new one. No insurance claim was made for whatever reason (e.g. person with sketchy insurance record who'd rather take the loss themselves).

[DragonZealot]

Well, what I think is dumb is checking off all the "excellent" boxes to describe the condition of a car where you can see there's something wrong from the PICTURES. Surely anybody who shows up there is going to notice the problem within 5 minutes...

The dealer is not dumb. They want to attract as many customer as possible so they can do their bait and switch.

[VivienM]

The dealer is not dumb. They want to attract as many customer as possible so they can do their bait and switch.

So you think the idea is that someone shows up, notices the accident damage, then the sales dude is like "well, if you want an undamaged car, I have that one over there for $6000 more?" I wonder if anyone would fall for that...

[tidus888]

VivienM, good post for used car buyers!

+1 for you.


I've seen on trader that some dealer use pictures that don't even belong to that car, so better check out the car urself when looking! =)

[djjosee]

Did you ever call or go to the dealership? Are you still interested in the car? If not, post the link ... just curious to see this vehicle.

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

I've seen on trader that some dealer use pictures that don't even belong to that car, so better check out the car urself when looking! =)

Well I think that's just because they have an automated system for generating those ads and sometimes it screws up, not because the dealer is trying to trick you. Although they could really use someone to read the ads before listing an S55 AMG with a picture of a Sunfire. :lol:

[VivienM]

Did you ever call or go to the dealership? Are you still interested in the car? If not, post the link ... just curious to see this vehicle.

Nope, didn't call, didn't go. In all honesty, I'm not in the best financial position to afford a car right now, but I admit this thing's colour and price had me somewhat intrigued?

[mdc]

So you can't afford it, but you still went out of your way to take the time to be a super detective?

Something tells me the dealer isn't the only dumb one ... :lol:

[VivienM]

So you can't afford it, but you still went out of your way to take the time to be a super detective?

Something tells me the dealer isn't the only dumb one ... :lol:

:lol: well, the price for this thing was low enough (and the colour rare enough) that I might have looked hard for the money just to avoid it getting away...

... and honestly, I probably spend more time each day reading this forum than I spent in total being a "super detective" on this.

[DragonZealot]

So you think the idea is that someone shows up, notices the accident damage, then the sales dude is like "well, if you want an undamaged car, I have that one over there for $6000 more?" I wonder if anyone would fall for that...

The idea is to draw someone to come in. If you don'e come in they can't sell.

Once you come in and see the damage they will stress that the "imperfection" is really minor, and facial and would not impair the performance or functional aspect. And that it has a rare colour, powerful engine.....

If you don't show interest anymore they will introduce you another car that "just came in", is such a bargain, and won't last long...

[Ben Jr]

All this detective work without actually seeing the car in person...+ one shabby photo out of the autotrader and the car is junk. I'm no supersleuth such as yourself, but I'm a little skeptic of you and your sidekick's findings.

[VivienM]

All this detective work without actually seeing the car in person...+ one shabby photo out of the autotrader and the car is junk. I'm no supersleuth such as yourself, but I'm a little skeptic of you and your sidekick's findings.

No, this was based on 25 photos in a boost listing. The good high res kind.

You can't tell anything off a single autotrader forum.

[mdc]

but she is so smart ... how could she not be able to identify every problem with a bad pic :lol:

Fact of the matter is you don't know anything about the car and made a few guesses. Until you see the car in person, it could of been a number of things that made the car look bad (ie. bad lighting/angles)

You're just a tire kicker wasting time ...

Not saying the car is good (you refuse to even link it) ... but your opinion means nothing without seeing it

[VivienM]

but she is so smart ... how could she not be able to identify every problem with a bad pic :lol:

Well, I'm not a she...

http://images2.resonanze.com/15/82156/pic%20340.jpg

Now, here's a comparison picture from a random eBay listing: http://i15.ebayimg.com/04/a/000/a8/20/405b_4.JPG

See the difference?

[Ben Jr]

again, maybe its a reflection from the camera flash or the sunny day it was as evident by the pillar that also shows the same reflections. Another pic would be to show the door shut, and see if the gap is the same all the way around, or perhaps see the car you know IRL...

[Jon Lai]

So you think the idea is that someone shows up, notices the accident damage, then the sales dude is like "well, if you want an undamaged car, I have that one over there for $6000 more?" I wonder if anyone would fall for that...

You'll be surprised.. lots of companies use bait and switch all the time..

[VivienM]

You'll be surprised.. lots of companies use bait and switch all the time..

Sure, the usual "oh, you came in for the $250 <whatever>? we sold our last one 15 minutes ago. can I interest you in a $300 <whatever> instead?" rhetoric.

I suppose car dealers can be more creative. There was one story floating around the Internet of a dealer advertising a new Aveo for $5000 or something... except that the only car available at that price had been painted with something that made it look hideous. But hey, if you wanted a normal-looking car, they had plenty... at the normal price.

Honestly though, how many customers are NOT going to feel horribly insulted and just walk out? The bait-and-switch is just so... blatant.

[monty613]

Well, I'm not a she...


Your username is pretty deceiving then!

Everytime I read your posts I thought 'why doesn't my girlfriend know this much about domestic cars?' :lol:

[VivienM]

Your username is pretty deceiving then!

What can I say, I got screwed by cultural differences. Most people who move either a) have a name that's the right gender in the place they move to, or b) have a name that's so unusual that people won't associate it with ANY gender. I have a name that's widely associated with the wrong gender in English-speaking cultures (in French-speaking cultures, any name ending in -ien is considered masculine, with -enne or -anne being the female variant).

But perhaps, especially for forums like this, I should just switch to using a pseudonym. If I called myself "3800WBodyDude", for example, no one would be confused about my gender. :) But then if I bought a Honda, I'd have a huge problem!

[Slippery_Pete]

What can I say, I got screwed by cultural differences. Most people who move either a) have a name that's the right gender in the place they move to, or b) have a name that's so unusual that people won't associate it with ANY gender. I have a name that's widely associated with the wrong gender in English-speaking cultures (in French-speaking cultures, any name ending in -ien is considered masculine, with -enne or -anne being the female variant).

But perhaps, especially for forums like this, I should just switch to using a pseudonym. If I called myself "3800WBodyDude", for example, no one would be confused about my gender. :) But then if I bought a Honda, I'd have a huge problem!

Cool, thanks for clearing that up. I will never think you are a 200 pound mullet-headed lesbian again! :lol:

[ES_Revenge]

LOL yeah I always thought you were a chick too!

Anyway yeah car's definitely been in an accident, that crinkle in the body there did not come off the line like that, LOL.

Car sounds like a lemon overall or just badly taken care of/poorly maintained. You didn't mention the year but it looks not too old meaning two emission tests within one month of each other signify a fail and then re-test; and no car (that isn't very old) should be failling an e-test already. I mean heck, car can be 10 years old and it still shouldn't be failing an e-test if it were well maintained and in good condition.

Everything about this car sets off alarm bells and you're right not to bother going to take a look at it because it would be a waste of time. I suggest you stay away from that stealer altogether in fact.

[Shaner]

Your pictures prove nothing.
That could be a bad reflection.

You're ranting about something you have no clue about. Until you go and see the car, you have no idea what condition it is in.

Also, you said you noticed it had been repainted. You were able to notice this by looking at a picture? You're telling me a GM dealership can't find someone to paint a car well enough so that it isn't noticable in pictures? Go see the car or stop trashing it.

[grant]

So, basically, these people (a franchised GM new car dealer) are advertising as being in "excellent" condition.
Even if the car has been in an accident (you're only speculating at this point) it may still arguably be in "excellent" condition.

Do you really expect a dealer to advertise "poor condition" "recent accident!" etc.?

[VivienM]

LOL yeah I always thought you were a chick too!

Nope... (Random note: why doesn't RFD let you specify gender in your profile? then again... maybe that's what the RFD facebook group is supposed to prevent?)

Anyway yeah car's definitely been in an accident, that crinkle in the body there did not come off the line like that, LOL.

That's what I thought. Yet the little "report card" type thing below the pictures has "excellent" in every category, including those dealing with body panels.

There's also screwed up paint on that door, as indicated in another picture. If I had to guess its size, it's an area about 20x15cm that's clearly not as shiny as the rest of the car. Yet the stealer claims the paint is "excellent", too.

Car sounds like a lemon overall or just badly taken care of/poorly maintained. You didn't mention the year but it looks not too old meaning two emission tests within one month of each other signify a fail and then re-test; and no car (that isn't very old) should be failling an e-test already. I mean heck, car can be 10 years old and it still shouldn't be failing an e-test if it were well maintained and in good condition.

Oops, I must have been unclear. There was about a year gap between the two e-tests.

The first e-test is normal, coming a month before the registration had to be renewed. The one a year later, one month after its registration should have been (but wasn't) renewed, is fishy.

My guess: the car was in an accident a month before the registration was going to expire. Owner drives it to this dealer, trades it in for a new car. This dealer has a body shop, so they take it there and tell the guys there to treat it as a low priority. A month or two later, the body shop guys are 'done' with it, so the service guys e-test it, and then start trying to sell it. Registration is never renewed, it vanishes off Carfax's radar, and since the accident was never reported to wherever Carfax gets their data, they can point to the clean Carfax.

This was a year ago. I suspect they started trying to sell it informally ("oh, well, if you can't afford $X for that other car, you can get this car for way less... sure, it's had a very minor accident, but it's well repaired and look at the savings"). Then when that failed... they put the first, quiet autotrader ad and didn't spend the money on the Boost listing with the 25 pictures. Then they got desperate, got the car detailed, and decided to put up the 25 pictures... and lie about its condition. Oops.

As I said in my first post, entertaining story... and a good reason not to trust Carfax alone.

[VivienM]

Even if the car has been in an accident (you're only speculating at this point) it may still arguably be in "excellent" condition.

Do you really expect a dealer to advertise "poor condition" "recent accident!" etc.?

They have a table below with a gazillion categories:
Paint
Hood
Right Fender
Left Fender
Right Doors
Left Doors
Right Rear Quarter
Left Rear Quarter
Trunk
Front Bumper
Rear Bumper
Grill
Glass
Frame

Every single one of those things is checked off as "excellent".

This is funny, because it's so different from the eBay world. A large-volume American dealer on eBay... will go crazy pointing out the imperfections. You'll see pictures of the seller's finger pointing at tiny flaws in the paint, stains in the seat fabric, etc. Obviously, they want to be absolutely sure that when you fly out to wherever to pick up the car, you're not disappointed (especially since some of them will pay for your airfare if you don't find the car to be as advertised).
But these guys... well, obviously they just check off "excellent" in every category on every car in their lot without actually bothering to look.

[ES_Revenge]

Your pictures prove nothing.
That could be a bad reflection.
Bad reflections are caused by bad surfaces. If the surface were smooth/proper you lkely would not get a reflection like that (and it doesn't look like a bad reflection to me anyway it looks like warped metal). There have been known to be strange effects in pictures though, but still I don't trust this. The used car business is not exactly known for it's ethics and honesty you know.

You're ranting about something you have no clue about. Until you go and see the car, you have no idea what condition it is in.
IMO, as I said, it's a waste of time. Given the history of the car in the ads and in terms of e-tests, lack of Optimum certification, etc. I seriously doubt it's worth looking into. Why if the car is in "excellent condition" can't they give it an Optimum certification? Afterall those certifications make sales easier and make them more money overall due to the price premium.

However Optimum vehicles carry certain warranties and guarantees. Could it be that there's a problem here and that's why they aren't making it an Optimum vehicle? I certainly think so. It's not that hard to put this one together. If you need to go down there and waste time figuring that out, then well what can I say, you're a time waster LOL.

Also, you said you noticed it had been repainted. You were able to notice this by looking at a picture? You're telling me a GM dealership can't find someone to paint a car well enough so that it isn't noticable in pictures? Go see the car or stop trashing it.
How do you know they painted it? It could have been painted elsewhere/by another party and later sold to a GM dealership (either by a customer or through auction or whatever). Just because it's sitting on their lot doesn't mean they did the work.

And yes you can notice repaints from pictures, if you know what to look for. And yes, actually, some dealership body shops have produced less than stellar body work.

I hate to point out the obvious here, but it should be obvious--I haven't even seen anything more than that one pic and read some of those details and can tell you already something is not right.

The thing is someone will buy that car unknowningly and that someone will be disappointed after the fact (or they could be oblivious I guess) but that someone is very likely the type of person that just doesn't see or want to admit the obvious here.

[VivienM]

Your pictures prove nothing.
That could be a bad reflection.

You're ranting about something you have no clue about. Until you go and see the car, you have no idea what condition it is in.

Also, you said you noticed it had been repainted. You were able to notice this by looking at a picture? You're telling me a GM dealership can't find someone to paint a car well enough so that it isn't noticable in pictures? Go see the car or stop trashing it.

A bad reflection? How, precisely, does a bad reflection make sheet metal look... crumpled?

(You guys probably think that just because it's GM it comes from the factory like this. It doesn't.)

As for the repainting, there is this area in the middle of the rear passenger door that's very clearly different from the rest of the car. The rest of the paint is shiny and reflective (it was clearly waxed an hour before the pictures were taken by someone who knew what they were doing)... and then this spot isn't. Maybe there's an innocent explanation. Or maybe, as ES_Revenge seems to agree, there's something fishy going on here.
And honestly, I don't see the point in spending 3 hours going out there, harassing some sales guy who needs to lie about the car to feed his kids, and coming back to give a status report in this forum. There are tons of used GM W bodies out there (though most tend to be other colours), and I'm sure at least some don't have the long list of things arousing suspicion that this car has (no sign of it in Carfax for TWO years?), so even if the paint colour looked right in person (and I would argue sometimes high-resolution pictures notice things the naked eye can't), it's a risky bet.

[VivienM]

How do you know they painted it? It could have been painted elsewhere/by another party and later sold to a GM dealership (either by a customer or through auction or whatever). Just because it's sitting on their lot doesn't mean they did the work.

Maybe my theory was wrong... Maybe the original owner got hit, paid some sketchy low-grade body shop to fix it up cheaply, then went and traded the car in to these guys, and since he paid MSRP or close for his new car, they took the old one, and they don't want to spend however many thousands of dollars redoing the sketchy first body shop's work.

Who knows. This is essentially idle speculation at this point.

[VivienM]

The car at issue in this thread is now marked as sold. Hmm.

[canuck514]

:lol: well, the price for this thing was low enough (and the colour rare enough) that I might have looked hard for the money just to avoid it getting away...

... and honestly, I probably spend more time each day reading this forum than I spent in total being a "super detective" on this.

I agree....you spend way too much time on this board

[Shaner]

I agree....you spend way too much time on this board

And you spend way too much time following the OP around. Just put the OP on ignore if you don't like his posts.

[angel_wing0]

The car at issue in this thread is now marked as sold. Hmm.

come on, we all know u bought it :D :)