I received a Complaint letter from my Neighbors!

[dealcatcher]

I received a Complaint letter from my Neighbors! here's the letter

Hello Neighbors

I am writing to ask you to please make an effort to remove the unsightly pile of gravel that has been on your front driveway for the past year.

Your neighbors for the most part take pride in their yards and in doing so maintain the value of our properties. I hope that you will agree that it would be appropriate to find another place for the gravel.

Regards,

A concerned neighbor

Here's the story,

I ordered 12 yards gravel since last year in July for my garden, and the left over now is about 1 to 2 yards left gravels on my drive way... How much is 1 to 2 yards? It is around 3meters x 3meters x 1 meters high, so it's not much left! However, this is my house , it's not a townhouse, it's not a dulpex! And it is on my Driveway in front of my gargage!, Not on the sidewalk! What'sup with that! I was planning to start working on these gravels before receiving this letter. What can I do now! If I start to work on it, the letter sender might think that the letter works! What can I do?!

A Concerned Owner

here's the pic of the gravel

http://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/06/8c48784da712406f0116fae73d6e9906.th.jpg (http://server7.pictiger.com/img/223010/picture-hosting/gravel.php)

[Mir]

Just start working on it
and Make letter worth it
Over all it is best in every body's intreast
Your Neighbor(s) went most civilize and intellectual path
SO please respect that

[CanadaBoy]

They should have confronted you face to face ...

[V A N Q U I S H]

They had to write you a letter? How far away are they from your place? Guess they didn't have the guts to come up to you.

Try as much as you can to stay away from neighbourhood grudges however, I remember my Dad got ticked b/c the spot where he parked his big rig kept getting taken by this newfie, and when he approached the newfie the situation escalated into a shouting match.

Over the next couple weeks, screws started appearing out of the blue in both our vehicle's tires (not on the rig's though) and we had to repair three tires, and replace two of them on our cars. That was years ago, we're moving now, and I've got something in store for that @**wipe before we leave, I'm not ready to forget that crap.

[batman321123]

I guess you have no choice now but to hold off working on it until next summer.

[rf134a]

I agree. It may not seem like a big deal having a 3m x 3m pile of gravel on your driveway, but remember that your neighbours worked hard to get their yards looking nice. It's been almost a year since you've had the gravel delivered.

Of course, it could be worse... my sister's neighbour has had their house under construction for 3 years and there's been a big pile of dirt there for about 2 years...

[MkmBandit]

Cover the letter in Ketchup and nail it to their front door. That'll learn em.


Dont worry about how it will come off if you clean it, just do it. I'm not saying the letter was warranted, however I'm sure you'd rather have it disposed of as well. You dont need to impress your neighbours, however its proper practice to take your neighbours into consideration and keep your property looking presentable.

[g5cubed]

The neighbour isn't demanding anything. So even if it is your property, they have the right to voice their opinion. It is somewhat unfair to them, because it does actually affect the neighbourhood's appeal and value.

[maebach]

I guess you have no choice now but to hold off working on it until next summer.

lol

[felix]

I agree it doesn't look good. Doesn't your wife/housemates complain about it? My mom would never let my dad do that. Why not move the gravel to the backyard or side of the house? Don't you need to use your driveway?

[infinite.chaoz]

Decorate the pile with some martha steward-like decorations. Then it would not only solve the problem, but also increase the value of your entire neighbourhood. :cheesygri

[Kasakato]

Where do you live?

[bubble.tea]

.... Neighbors
...... I was planning to start working on these gravels before receiving this letter. What can I do now! If I start to work on it, the letter sender might think that the letter works! ....
1-it's neighbours (We're in Canada ;) )
2-Why not be the bigger neighbour, as you clearly are exemplifying yourself here as such (by this self-absorbed thread), and just 'let them think' their effort was respectfully heeded, by tidying up your ghetto (not-so-noticeable gravels).

While your residence is YOUR RESIDENCE...If the neighbour has any shred of truth in that the NEIGHBOURHOOD takes effort in the maintenance and presentation of their homes, do you REALLY want to be the "Old Man Winter" of the area? It's taken you a YEAR (and you STILL haven't gotten rid of all that gravel?

Let's not forget gravel isn't a CUBE...even if it was a 3mX3mx1m cube on anybodies lawn for a year is NOT something you can just ignore. Gravel has undoubtedly spread...and spread....and spread into a monstrosity by now :lol:.

....Guess they didn't have the guts to come up to you.

Try as much as you can to stay away from neighbourhood grudges however, I remember my Dad got ticked b/c the spot where he parked his big rig kept getting taken by this newfie, and when he approached the newfie the situation escalated into a shouting match.

Over the next couple weeks, screws started appearing out of the blue in both our vehicle's tires (not on the rig's though) and we had to repair three tires, and replace two of them on our cars. That was years ago, we're moving now, and I've got something in store for that @**wipe before we leave, I'm not ready to forget that crap.
Laughably ironic it is, that of all the people to say-it's about 'guts'-you are also describing JUST the kind of horrible extents neighbourhood socio-dynamics can go sour, at the slightest inability to remain civil and respectful, when approaching a public and important issue.

[aquariaguy]

Your neighbour does have a point. They are trying to be courteous at least. Other people might just come and take the gravel out of your driveway slowly. Just go abouts your business since you said you were gonna use the gravel anyways and use it. I for one, wouldn't leave a 3m x 3m x 1m pile of gravel on my driveway for a yr, it's kinda ugly lol

[Peckerwood]

Private Property is still private property...I would simply ignore it and wait until they decide that they must confront you in person so that you can simply tell them where to go and how to get there.

;)

The other option is to pretend that you are an EnviroCommie and tell them that you demand they remove all of that green sod from their yard because it is a waste of fresh drinking water to take care of it and thusly a waste of gasoline and/or electricity to mow it.

They started the whole minding of other people's business...I suggest that you finish it

:D

[vrus]

call it 'art' and ignore them.

[Paranoidandroid]

http://www.animationartgallery.com/images/KOT/KOTH6.gif
Is this really how you want your neighbors to look at you?

Anyways, I suggest handing out letters to your neighbors directing them to this link.

[infinite.chaoz]

Private Property is still private property...I would simply ignore it and wait until they decide that they must confront you in person so that you can simply tell them where to go and how to get there.

;)

The other option is to pretend that you are an EnviroCommie and tell them that you demand they remove all of that green sod from their yard because it is a waste of fresh drinking water to take care of it and thusly a waste of gasoline and/or electricity to mow it.

They started the whole minding of other people's business...I suggest that you finish it

:D

ROFL, from the pictures you posted earlier, the dump in front of your friend's house makes dealcatcher's gravel pile look like a masterpiece.

[helium]

Tell them to suck it up - it's on your property, not theirs.

[felix]

ROFL, from the pictures you posted earlier, the dump in front of your friend's house makes dealcatcher's gravel pile look like a masterpiece.
LOL ... you're right. He should come down from whitehorse and clean up the OP's driveway since he loves cleaning other people's mess for free! :cheesygri

[Blunt]

You don't have to do anything,
but why don't you just do the respectable thing and start working on that gravel? Your neighbours did the civilized thing, and you should do the same.

You don't have to take the bitter route. How if the shoe was on the other foot?

[caliente]

What don't you just work on the gravel pile?

It would have been nice for your neighbours to talk to you in person, instead of sending a letter which seems more confrontational. People are kind of non-friendly nowadays. Makes me miss my white-picket-fence childhood somewhat.

At least they didn't threaten you with legal action.

[M@rk]

Do what you feel is right. Remember, this letter is just from one anal neighbor and doesn't necessarily reflect the mentality of the entire neighborhood. I certainly wouldn't care if my neighbor had a pile of gravel on his driveway.

[Peckerwood]

ROFL, from the pictures you posted earlier, the dump in front of your friend's house makes dealcatcher's gravel pile look like a masterpiece.
I was thinking of the exact same oxymoron while typing my response

:D

Despite the fact that I dont like a mess on my property, I really could care less if the neighbours have messes on theirs...just so long as the mess remains on their property I am thusly a happy camper.

To add...exactly what type of legal action could possibly be backed by the Charter that would force someone to do something to their own private property that in fact has no adverse affect on passers-by except to teach them to turn their head and not look at it if they dont like it.

Some people seriously need to keep their snoots out of other people's business. The Bill of Rights guarantees the Right to Enjoyment of Property...it does not guarantee the Right to do unto Other's Property.

[Firebot]

Tell them to suck it up - it's on your property, not theirs.

The property in the end is still owned by the city. If a neighbour complains to the city, the city can very well send a letter to conform or face fines, since their property value drops depending on the properties around it. I know because it happened when my family didn't cut the grass for almost a year and received a warning notice from the city after receiving complaints (none of us was around other then late at night to sleep, and I was in college).

[CheapScotsman]

:arrowu: :arrowu: and if I want to enjoy my suburban property along with twenty of my pet pigs that make a lot of loud noises and smell like you wouldn't believe ... then along with averting your eyes, you should close your nose and your ears.

The cities around here wouldn't do much with a yard or two of gravel on your driveway ... but the neighbor did ask if you could so something and you were planning on doing it this summer so just tell him what is going on.

[gorf]

Take their comments lightly, obviously they were scared to confront you in person. Have a sense of humor about it, plant a white flag in the middle of the pile for a few days. :D

Then get your butt in gear and clean it up. I imagine the gravel is a nuisance for you being on your driveway anyways.

[Frankie3s]

I received a Complaint letter from my Neighbors! here's the letter

Hello Neighbors

I am writing to ask you to please make an effort to remove the unsightly pile of gravel that has been on your front driveway for the past year.

Your neighbors for the most part take pride in their yards and in doing so maintain the value of our properties. I hope that you will agree that it would be appropriate to find another place for the gravel.

Regards,

A concerned neighbor

Here's the story,

I ordered 12 yards gravel since last year in July for my garden, and the left over now is about 1 to 2 yards left gravels on my drive way... How much is 1 to 2 yards? It is around 3meters x 3meters x 1 meters high, so it's not much left! However, this is my house , it's not a townhouse, it's not a dulpex! And it is on my Driveway in front of my gargage!, Not on the sidewalk! What'sup with that! I was planning to start working on these gravels before receiving this letter. What can I do now! If I start to work on it, the letter sender might think that the letter works! What can I do?!

A Concerned Owner


I can see their point but however, as a land owner you have rights too. What's next? Someone doesn't like the color that you painted your garage will they be sending you another letter? I think you shouldn't do anything right away and hold off for another month or so. If you run right out and clean it up it will validate that they had every right to bother you and the letters will keep on coming. Don't give in, wait a while. A month or so at least!

[MrDisco]

They should have confronted you face to face ...

They had to write you a letter? How far away are they from your place? Guess they didn't have the guts to come up to you.

Given some of the comments in this thread the letter was the safer way to go. Who needs to get into a yelling match (or worse) with some screwball home owner.

The letter was polite and clearly written. Did they make silly threats? Use abusive language? No they just stated their concerns. Don't be a baby and just do the job and clear the gravel. It's hardly the most attractive thing to have in the neighborhood. Explain to your neighbor that you're working on and hope to have it all cleared up by (insert date here).

[MrDisco]

I think you shouldn't do anything right away and hold off for another month or so. If you run right out and clean it up it will validate that they had every right to bother you and the letters will keep on coming. Don't give in, wait a while. A month or so at least!

Totally juvenile.

Why not just work with your neighbors instead of being "that" guy who has to go against the grain just to make a point. Isn't far easier to come to a rational discussion and say something along the lines that you're working on it, hope to have to cleared up by such and such date, thanks for your patience and understanding.

Depending on where you live, some homes are quite compact with not much land separating them. the result is debris laying about can have an impact on the look of surrounding homes. and unless the gravel is contained, its probably going to end up scattered on the road as well.

[Frankie3s]

Totally juvenile.

Why not just work with your neighbors instead of being "that" guy who has to go against the grain just to make a point. Isn't far easier to come to a rational discussion and say something along the lines that you're working on it, hope to have to cleared up by such and such date, thanks for your patience and understanding.

Depending on where you live, some homes are quite compact with not much land separating them. the result is debris laying about can have an impact on the look of surrounding homes. and unless the gravel is contained, its probably going to end up scattered on the road as well.

Why should he have to justify anything to his neighbors? Do you consult your neighbors when you are doing anything to your property? My neighbor across the street painted his garage a God awful yellow color last summer. Am I supposed to go over there and try to ration with him that we as neighbors would like him to repaint it because it might impact our property values or the look of the surrounding homes? Do you know how silly your response sounds? Live and let live. The stones were here before us and they will still be here when we are dead and gone. Guaranteed!

[aquariaguy]

The property in the end is still owned by the city. If a neighbour complains to the city, the city can very well send a letter to conform or face fines, since their property value drops depending on the properties around it. I know because it happened when my family didn't cut the grass for almost a year and received a warning notice from the city after receiving complaints (none of us was around other then late at night to sleep, and I was in college).

Wow, grass not cut for a year. That must've been nasty. Good thing they complained! I don't think anyone has an excuse to not cut grass that turns out looking like weeds.

[aquariaguy]

Why should he have to justify anything to his neighbors? Do you consult your neighbors when you are doing anything to your property? My neighbor across the street painted his garage a God awful yellow color last summer. Am I supposed to go over there and try to ration with him that we as neighbors would like him to repaint it because it might impact our property values or the look of the surrounding homes? Do you know how silly your response sounds? Live and let live. The stones were here before us and they will still be here when we are dead and gone. Guaranteed!

I don't think the color of a garage has anything to do with property value.

The amount of silly comments on here does not surprise me that the neighbour gave a letter.

[Frankie3s]

I don't think the color of a garage has anything to do with property value.

The amount of silly comments on here does not surprise me that the neighbour gave a letter.

Sure it does, because whoever lives there has to look at it just like the neighbors who have to stare at that pile of gravel everyday. Although I don't like the color but as long as it is on his property (just like the gravel), I myself don't have a problem with it. I would rather look at that pile of gravel than a very poorly painted garage. Especially painted yellow as urine.

[mtharvey]

Did they sign the letter? If someone sent me a letter like that, it would be all out war.

[Flyer]

OP should shoot himself in the arm and say he could not work on the pile because he was busy fighting the war on terrorism :rolleyes:

[dealcatcher]

Did they sign the letter? If someone sent me a letter like that, it would be all out war.

There is no name on the letter, no return address... it can't be identified.

[dealcatcher]

Where do you live?

in BC.

[dealcatcher]

http://www.animationartgallery.com/images/KOT/KOTH6.gif
Is this really how you want your neighbors to look at you?

Anyways, I suggest handing out letters to your neighbors directing them to this link.

don't really know who sent me this letter?

[Kohanz]

Stop saying it was the civilized thing to do people. Writing a letter is gutless. It's something that should properly be done face to face.

[gilboman]

private property doesnt mean you can do anything on your property;)

also, peopel should realize in canada, we dont even have property rights. the land is always the crown's and is just leased to us;)

[dealcatcher]

What don't you just work on the gravel pile?

It would have been nice for your neighbours to talk to you in person, instead of sending a letter which seems more confrontational. People are kind of non-friendly nowadays. Makes me miss my white-picket-fence childhood somewhat.

At least they didn't threaten you with legal action.


The reason why i haven't finished it cuz of the weather in vancouver, it start the rain season from Sept until may ~ june time and just getting better ... that's why i was planning to work on it within like 1 ~ 2 weeks.. I really want to change mind after I received this letter yesterday..!!.. He can complaint about my yards but not those gravels.... it's on my property, even the gravel is my property too!

[dealcatcher]

Stop saying it was the civilized thing to do people. Writing a letter is gutless. It's something that should properly be done face to face.

AGREE!! sending a no name letter is gutless!!

[getmail99]

Buy some more stones and put it near the gravels and pretend you are working on it. Talk to some neighbors and say you hurt your back. ;) . Then take your time to finish your job.

[Peckerwood]

private property doesnt mean you can do anything on your property;)

also, peopel should realize in canada, we dont even have property rights. the land is always the crown's and is just leased to us;)
The Charter does not abrogate or derogate from any previous rights given...so considering that we have the Right under the Bill of Rights to the Enjoyment of Property, we therefore still retain that right unless it has been specifically extinguished.

Keep in mind that Habeous Corpus is still valid specifically under the Magna Carta which is still in effect.

;)

[milhouse6]

Hello Neighbors

I am writing to ask you to please make an effort to remove the unsightly pile of gravel that has been on your front driveway for the past year.

Your neighbors for the most part take pride in their yards and in doing so maintain the value of our properties. I hope that you will agree that it would be appropriate to find another place for the gravel.

Regards,

A concerned neighbor

Personally I think it's quite a polite and professional letter.

What's the harm in doing what they ask? A year's a long time, so the complaint might not be completely unreasonable. An hour's labour moving the pile to a hidden location might earn a lot of goodwill.

I live in an high rise condo building. I used to think it was better to solve problems (i.e. noise) face-to-face, but in most cases I have regretted not filing formal, anonymouse complaints from the get go. I'm regularly astonished at how insane some people can be. Some neighbours have been juvenile, retaliatory, and sometimes threatening.

Goodwill amongst neighbours is a valuable asset. Who knows, you may need to work together when a *real* problem neighbour moves into the neighbourhood, or the complainer may start doing something that bothers you in the future. Failure to appease them now could cause trouble down the road.

I'd maybe even consider copying the letter and distributing it to the surrounding homes with a mild apology without defense, sarcasm, or antagonism. "I didn't realize the gravel was a blight and have moved it. Thank you for bringing the issue to my attention."

[hugh_da_man]

I'm thinking that there is more to this story than what we're hearing.

Do you have anything else on your lawn/driveway? Are you the guy who always has a pile of something sitting on your lot? Sounds to me like this has gone on for more than a year and the neighbours finally got fed up.

Also, writing a letter is way better than face to face. Face to face would be embarassing to the OP and would probably end up in a shouting match that would attract other neighbours.

Your plan was to do work on the pile...so do work on the pile and get it done. Why change anything because of a letter?

[dealcatcher]

I'm thinking that there is more to this story than what we're hearing.

Do you have anything else on your lawn/driveway? Are you the guy who always has a pile of something sitting on your lot? Sounds to me like this has gone on for more than a year and the neighbours finally got fed up.

Also, writing a letter is way better than face to face. Face to face would be embarassing to the OP and would probably end up in a shouting match that would attract other neighbours.

Your plan was to do work on the pile...so do work on the pile and get it done. Why change anything because of a letter?


Do you have anything else on your lawn/driveway? No

Are you the guy who always has a pile of something sitting on your lot? No

[hugh_da_man]

Do you have anything else on your lawn/driveway? No

Are you the guy who always has a pile of something sitting on your lot? No

How are your neighbour's driveways? Do you have other people in the area who let their piles of junk explode?

There has to be something more than a year long gravel pile for someone to complain.

Anyways, all of that aside, why not just do what you were going to do on your time schedule and forget about the neighbour? You'll get it done, they'll be happy...everyone is happy...

[HunkaHunkaBurningLove]

Obviously it's bothering someone enough that they took the time and effort to write you a letter politely asking you to do something. If I were you, I would move the pile to the backyard where you can leave it for ten years if you like before that neighbour escalates things.

If you don't give a crap about what your neighbours feel or say, then be prepared for the crap that may come your way!

I had a neighbour who must have lost the muffler from his truck months ago. For some reason he didn't want to have it repaired for whatever reason. Of course, he was the only guy in the neighbourhood who had to go to work at 5:00 am in the morning and warm up his truck for 30 minutes in the wintertime. A friendly note to this guy did cross my mind along with a few other ideas every morning when I was woken up at 4:30 am.

Trust me, it's wiser to not to make enemies with the people you live next to.

[earthman]

"be a man and do the right thing!":D

[plymouthhater]

Reminds me of when I first moved into my house. A buddy and I started to do some interlocking and landscaping. Of course we wanted to get rid of the builder provided standard patio stone sidewalk in the front of the house and the 4 patio stone x 4 patio stone patio in the back yard.

The landscaping project included removing about 20 wheelbarrow loads of clay and sod and replacing the aforementioned with interlocking brick.

We piled the old soil and sod clumps on the street in front of my house. (I live on a quiet court) Pretty soon half of the homeowners on my street were either adding or removing dirt from the pile depending upon the type of work they were doing in their yards.

My immediate neighbour came to me and asked me if he could have the patio stones I was removing as he wanted to expand his patio. Of course I gave them to him. In addition to that I offered him the use of my rental plate tamper to tamp down the sand and screenings he was placing under the patio stones.

Lo and behold a week later the SOB called the town to complain about the dirt pile (that was partially composed of the sod and earth he removed when he placed his free patio stones). The town sent a backhoe and dump truck to remove the "pile". Fortunately, I called the town and managed to convince them not to bill me several hundred dollars for the removal work.

About a year later I found out from one of the neighbours that my a$$hole immediate neighbour had gone door to door trying to get support for a group complaint to the town. He moved out a few years ago after complaining that the subdivision was "going downhill".

[alv077]

I would admit that I wouldn't like a heap of gravel on my neighborhood... looks... messy.

That being said, the letter was kinda low. I would respond by going outside and building a snowman out of gravel

[Thundercloud]

Throw a tarp over it, which might make it look uglier or neater. Either way, it's all good and it doesn't take 5 minutes. :cheesygri

[kingsley]

hrm...I hope I don't get a letter about my lawn. It has a lot of dandelions on it and the grass is pretty long right now.

[toujours]

Dandelions should be Canada's national flower imho.

But back to the post : Can't you just transport all that gravel into the back yard and put it in a big gravel bag ?

[Arkaine]

Unfortunately I think the best idea is to just move the gravel or get to work on it. Yes, the neighbour will take joy in pushin you around, but things like this can really escalate into ridiculous scenerios.
At my friends house he had an 84 RX7 in his front yard that he was working on and he received a letter telling him he needed to fix the car because it was lowering the property value of the neighbourhood. He really doesn't like stuff like that so every morning when he went to work at 6am he would start the car for no reason than to allow the neighbours to hear the exhaust-less beast. Needless to say, after a couple weeks of this the cops were then called and he was issued a warning. A few weeks later cops were called again and he had to go to court as the neighbours now complained he was "driving recklessly" in the neighbourhood. He won the court battle.

I won't tell you the things he did next... leave it to the imagination.

[nano]

i deal with neighbor complaints all the time (i work in customer service at a utility company) if someone has enough time to worry about something on their neighbors property they have major issues... personally i think your neighbor is being very childish. i would toss the letter..

[Irb]

3 x 3 meter of gravel sitting there since last summer?

I would complain if I was your neighbor. It makes the rest of the street look ghetto.

[manixc]

I'm surprised no one tried to "borrow" your gravels.

Anyway, just do the right thing!

[Kuurgen]

About a year later I found out from one of the neighbours that my a$$hole immediate neighbour had gone door to door trying to get support for a group complaint to the town. He moved out a few years ago after complaining that the subdivision was "going downhill".

Try to be a nice guy and they turn into jerks.

This is probably the biggest reason why I will never buy a house in a subdivision.
Some people get a little nutty about their neighbours for no reason other than they have too much time on their hands.

I worked for a guy last year and quite often I'd go by his house. He hadn't mowed the lawn for the entire summer.

I know his neighbours must have been freaking out.

He had a plastic type garbage bin and I guess one day it collasped and he left it.

He came home to find it had been duct taped back together by a neighbour.
LOL. He was all puzzled by it. Like hrrm who would do that? Why?


I'm not a yard upkeep fanatic, I think the things that really stick out are abandoned cars, unkept yards. (like not mowed all summer)

However, I may think a place looks horrid, I'm not sure it would warrant my time to complain.

Some people have definately way too much time on their hands.

[corrupt123]

I think your best bet at this point would be a 10' cinderblock wall around your property.

[aquariaguy]

Sure it does, because whoever lives there has to look at it just like the neighbors who have to stare at that pile of gravel everyday. Although I don't like the color but as long as it is on his property (just like the gravel), I myself don't have a problem with it. I would rather look at that pile of gravel than a very poorly painted garage. Especially painted yellow as urine.

If they wanted to sell their house, but saw a neighbour who didn't take care of their property, would someone want to move in than? A yellow garage just means a bad taste of color. Just like wild uncontrollable growing grass shows negligence about ones property.

[MrDisco]

Why should he have to justify anything to his neighbors? Do you consult your neighbors when you are doing anything to your property? My neighbor across the street painted his garage a God awful yellow color last summer. Am I supposed to go over there and try to ration with him that we as neighbors would like him to repaint it because it might impact our property values or the look of the surrounding homes? Do you know how silly your response sounds? Live and let live. The stones were here before us and they will still be here when we are dead and gone. Guaranteed!

justify? who said anything about justify. he's got junk sitting on his driveway for an unreasonable length of time and his neighbor wrote a professional letter asking him to get on with it. do you know how much of a jerk your position sounds like? what is so terrible with responding in a polite manner and working with the community rather than being that grumpy old man who likes to let his property turn to crap?

[nx6288]

see who has the best looking lawn within a 5 house radius and thats who sent u the letter :razz:

[dealcatcher]

justify? who said anything about justify. he's got junk sitting on his driveway for an unreasonable length of time and his neighbor wrote a professional letter asking him to get on with it. do you know how much of a jerk your position sounds like? what is so terrible with responding in a polite manner and working with the community rather than being that grumpy old man who likes to let his property turn to crap?

These are not just junk, still working on our project, we stop just because here in Vancouver, rain all the time from Sept to May, the weather in here just starting to get better a week ago. We go to work almost 7 days a week, while we finally got some time off, it was always raining. By the way, we used up almost 80% of gravel, there are just 20% left out of 12 yards (not 3mx3m,tying errors, just aprrox. 1.8m x1.8m) in front of our double garage driveway, other neighbors took away 20% for their own yards....

[4flava]

I definitely agree with the majority of people here who say that you SHOULD take care of your unfinished business.

I think you should walk up to your neighbours one day with a smile and say "Hey, btw I received your letter and thanks for the REMINDER... I was actually planning to work on it last week but something important came up so I'm starting next week instead".

That way, you acknowledge that you've received their letter but you're also telling them that it wasn't really their letter that's making you work.

Sometimes things are not that difficult to solve.. some communication + a smile goes a long way. :)

[Happy13178]

I definitely agree with the majority of people here who say that you SHOULD take care of your unfinished business.

I think you should walk up to your neighbours one day with a smile and say "Hey, btw I received your letter and thanks for the REMINDER... I was actually planning to work on it last week but something important came up so I'm starting next week instead".

That way, you acknowledge that you've received their letter but you're also telling them that it wasn't really their letter that's making you work.

Sometimes things are not that difficult to solve.. some communication + a smile goes a long way. :)

Communication and a smile do go a long way...but the OP didn't get either in this case. He got a letter, unsigned, which isn't professional or in good taste. If they had a problem they should have come and spoken to him face to face. The fact that the letter was unsigned shows that they probably thought it would start a fight, which indicates that they're feeling a bit hostile about it themselves, and some people are just *******s about it anyways. I had some guy complain to the city that I put my garbage out to the street a day early because I was going out of town. One person ruins the whole neighbourhood, really.

This isn't like a lawn being left unmowed for a year, the guy has it for his home improvement, and while its been left for a long time, life happens, and you can't always do things when you'd like to. He shouldn't have to stress himself out to get everything done on his neighbours schedule. Now, if a neighbour had said "Hey, we're thinking about selling our house and we want the neighbourhood to look good, do you want a hand getting rid of the gravel and maybe have a beer one weekend?", I'm sure the OP wouldn't be posting it in here.

OP, you do exactly what you want. It's your property, and if your neighbours have a problem they can come and talk to you about it. If they don't have the character to do that, **** 'em. Let them stew about it for a while....if they had gone about it differently, things could maybe be a bit different, but thats obviously not the case.

[dealcatcher]

I definitely agree with the majority of people here who say that you SHOULD take care of your unfinished business.

I think you should walk up to your neighbours one day with a smile and say "Hey, btw I received your letter and thanks for the REMINDER... I was actually planning to work on it last week but something important came up so I'm starting next week instead".

That way, you acknowledge that you've received their letter but you're also telling them that it wasn't really their letter that's making you work.

Sometimes things are not that difficult to solve.. some communication + a smile goes a long way. :)

Thank you so much for your suggestion :) very appreciated.....

[TapemanPL]

Thank you so much for your suggestion :) very appreciated.....

or if you were me and hate your neighbors, you could spit on a piece of paper and fold it up, put it in an envelope and put it in their mail box...and when you start working on the gravel they know that it wasn't the letter that made you do it

[dealcatcher]

Communication and a smile do go a long way...but the OP didn't get either in this case. He got a letter, unsigned, which isn't professional or in good taste. If they had a problem they should have come and spoken to him face to face. The fact that the letter was unsigned shows that they probably thought it would start a fight, which indicates that they're feeling a bit hostile about it themselves, and some people are just *******s about it anyways. I had some guy complain to the city that I put my garbage out to the street a day early because I was going out of town. One person ruins the whole neighbourhood, really.

This isn't like a lawn being left unmowed for a year, the guy has it for his home improvement, and while its been left for a long time, life happens, and you can't always do things when you'd like to. He shouldn't have to stress himself out to get everything done on his neighbours schedule. Now, if a neighbour had said "Hey, we're thinking about selling our house and we want the neighbourhood to look good, do you want a hand getting rid of the gravel and maybe have a beer one weekend?", I'm sure the OP wouldn't be posting it in here.

OP, you do exactly what you want. It's your property, and if your neighbours have a problem they can come and talk to you about it. If they don't have the character to do that, **** 'em. Let them stew about it for a while....if they had gone about it differently, things could maybe be a bit different, but thats obviously not the case.

I definitely agree.... just two of us in the household. We just started up a new family, we've tried our very best to upgrade our house. The previous owner didn't do much upgrading on the house....we had this house for 3 years, we did every projects ourself, never hired anyone to do it, 1st year summer, we re-paint the whole inside house, 2nd year re-paint the outside house, 3rd year we've started working on the yard and garden, those gravels are used to cover the walkways between the 2 houses, usually people use concrete but it cost too much for us, besides, most our neighbors did the same thing (used gravels to cover the walkways between houses) on our street. some neighbors know that we are busy all the time, they alway said to us that " take your time, no rush......"

[d0fuz]

I'd say take your time and finish your project. Don't rush it just cause a neighbour is pissed off.

[Cafe_333]

Well the general consensus here is that you should just give in and clean up the mess - not because you have to, but you were going to anyway. Ignoring their letter just to prove a point that it's your property and you'll do as you please only makes you look like an ass about it. Starting this thread under the guise of being on a morale high horse because the gravel is on your property is just misleading. Why do you care? I think it's better to get off the morale high horse and just do it. You were going to anyway.

Not saying you are this, but I can see how some posters view this as being self absorbed because in the end, this whole thread is chalked up to what your neighbours are going to think -- the only conflicting feeling I can identify here is that you simply don't want them thinking that they've won. But why do you care so much about what your neighbours think? Why do you care if they think they've won? I used to be the same way - I don't like being told what to do with my own things especially on my own property. I attribute this because of issues I had dealing with inferiority - I don't like feeling belittled or letting people walk over me or getting the better of me. Not saying that you have this issue, but that's just me. My point here is that I learned to be the bigger and better person, and just be mature about it, and do it for me - not for anyone else, even if they think it is, who cares, screw them. Just as you can be the bigger and better person here and do it for you, not for anyone else. Then let those ingrates have their moment, and life goes on.

[mlerner]

Leave it for another year. If your neighbors have a problem with it, they don't have to live there.

[devious9191]

I think you guys are living in a dream world if you think someone can have a mess on their property, and noone can do anything about it because it's their property.

Last summer my neighbour called the bylaw guys on his neighbour. They had a police officer spend the day at this guy's house while he moved all the junk off of his lawn.

If the condition of your property negatively impacts the property values of your neighbour's, and has been doing so for an unreasonable amount of time (ie. leaving a pile of dirt there for a year), they can have you remove it.

Would you rather be the guy that your neighbour's called the city on, or the guy that does the responsible thing and just cleaned up the mess you've been procrastinating on for a year?

Leave your ego at the door, quit being a dick and clean up your yard, before you end up with hostile neighbour's instead of disgruntled ones.

[summerfan]

Leave it for another year. If your neighbors have a problem with it, they don't have to live there.

Not that simple.If they leave it theretand and bylaw is called.Wll then they have no choice but to move it.Plus they will get a $200 fine.

[sledbc]

Buy some little colored flags and a remote control dune buggy, use the gravel for something fun!

[slothy@cutey]

I know that I'd feel insulted/offended at getting a letter like this ... and the temptation would be to be retaliatory.

However, these are your neighbours. We DO live in a community - no one is an island. Also, I'd consider the fact that if one person gave you an anonymous letter, that likely means there are others on the street who may feel the same way but just didn't bother to speak (err.. write) up about it!

Also, consider that maybe the letter-writer agonized over how to confront you about the gravel. This was something that they've been seeing for a year... I mean that's a long time. In all fairness, they didn't complain after a few months, they waited a year before giving you the letter. I think that demonstrates that they aren't out to "get you" or to cause a scene over nothing... If you finished the work, even 8-9-10 months later, you'd never have even received the letter in the first place.

If you remove the gravel, you look like the mature responsible neighbour. This isn't about chest-thumping, it's about being considerate to the neighbourhood helping everyone (including you!) enjoy a nicer neighbourhood. Yes, people are fallible... yes there are ugly garage doors out there, and surely you can argue where you draw the line. But like others have stated, you were going to use up the gravel ANYWAYS, would it kill you to do the work?

[brute33]

do you want to be "RIGHT" or do you want to get along with your neighbors?

for god sake people not everything is about what right you or they have. Choose your battles. You've got a pile of dirt in your driveway for over a year. By now it's probably a pile of weeds....

i beleive your "right" to neglect your property ends when it starts to affect the values of your fellow neighbors. PERIOD! this means you can neglect your backyard, interior but anything visible from the front you be proper.

Spead it over your lawn and be done with it!

[brute33]

Personally I think it's quite a polite and professional letter.
Goodwill amongst neighbours is a valuable asset. Who knows, you may need to work together when a *real* problem neighbour moves into the neighbourhood, or the complainer may start doing something that bothers you in the future. Failure to appease them now could cause trouble down the road.


very true!

20 years ago when i was 13 my house burnt down 2 days before we were to move to a bigger house 6 doors up the street. for 2 days we were homeless....my sister and i stayed with neighbors while my parents dealt with insurance and the real estate agents/banks. We moved into the bigger house with nothing. Everyone in the neighborhood pitched in and gave us what they had: clothes/mattresses/blankets/tables/and old tv, etc. many even pitched in money so my dad could purchase essentials while we were waiting for the insurance to settle.

although it was the worst day in my life (my dog died in that fire) it also showed me the best in people. I'll never forget the generosity of my neighbors. it changed me for life

[Sylvestre]

I received a Complaint letter from my Neighbors! here's the letter

Hello Neighbors

I am writing to ask you to please make an effort to remove the unsightly pile of gravel that has been on your front driveway for the past year.

Your neighbors for the most part take pride in their yards and in doing so maintain the value of our properties. I hope that you will agree that it would be appropriate to find another place for the gravel.

Regards,

A concerned neighbor

Here's the story,

I ordered 12 yards gravel since last year in July for my garden, and the left over now is about 1 to 2 yards left gravels on my drive way... How much is 1 to 2 yards? It is around 3meters x 3meters x 1 meters high, so it's not much left! However, this is my house , it's not a townhouse, it's not a dulpex! And it is on my Driveway in front of my gargage!, Not on the sidewalk! What'sup with that! I was planning to start working on these gravels before receiving this letter. What can I do now! If I start to work on it, the letter sender might think that the letter works! What can I do?!

A Concerned Owner

So you won't do anything just to be macho? You don't want the letter writer to feel he's "won"?
Geeze, are you 12?

[Stock R]

personally i think your neighbor is being very childish. i would toss the letter..

What's more childish? Writing a nicely typed up letter? Or not moving a mound of gravel just to spite the neighbours?

For those who say an unsigned letter is unprofessional... have you ever considered the OP might look like this?
http://www.uwm.edu/People/erpetri/gangster/gangster4.JPG
or
http://www.funpartywigs.com/Images/bestwigs/punk3.jpg

In which either case, I'd personally wouldn't want to confront them face to face either in case things get out of hand.

I would move the gravel. It's the nice thing to do for both your self image in the neighbourhood and for the neighbours. Not moving it just to spite the others is rather silly. I paved the interlocking in my backyard myself and know what kind of work and effort it takes to move it all. I ended up moving all the left over gravel to the side of my house right after.

[kleptodathief]

u got pics of this pile of gravel? seems like if its on ur own private property...u can do wotever u want!!! F them! i'd just stick the letter on the pile there!

[summerfan]

u got pics of this pile of gravel? seems like if its on ur own private property...u can do wotever u want!!! F them! i'd just stick the letter on the pile there!

Thats not true at all.While it may be your property that does not mean you can do what ever you want.If your doign something that is effecting the pople around you they can call the by law.Yes there are by laws for this type of things.In ottawa here is a short list of our by laws.

1)Only 2 cars per single drive way.You can not park on the grass.

2)You can not leave anything in your front or back yard that effects your neighbours.This includes boats/rv's to smaller things such as gravel etc.

3)While you can fix you car.You can not use your drive way as a personal garage.

4)Cat/dog crap if you have a very large amount and your neighbours call the bylaw.Yes its a $150 fine.

[Stock R]

u got pics of this pile of gravel? seems like if its on ur own private property...u can do wotever u want!!! F them! i'd just stick the letter on the pile there!

And since it's private property you can play music as loud as you want on it right? Or since it's private property, you can use your backyard as a landfill and never throw out the trash right?

[CSR]

They asked you nicely, don't take it so personally.

[rf134a]

It looks like most of the responses come from 2 groups of people.
1. People who live in their mom's basement.
2. Homeowners.

I think most homeowners agree that moving the gravel is the best thing to do while non-homeowners will tell you to "F them, do nothing". Once you've actually purchased something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, you'll be much more protective than just having use of something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. What happened to just being nice for the sake of it? Some people just seem so juvenile in a "I'm right and you're wrong" type of mentality.

[scottmcl]

shovel some gravel into an envelope and leave it on your neighbours porch.

Repeat daily

[dealcatcher]

u got pics of this pile of gravel? seems like if its on ur own private property...u can do wotever u want!!! F them! i'd just stick the letter on the pile there!

here's the pic

http://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/06/8c48784da712406f0116fae73d6e9906.th.jpg (http://server7.pictiger.com/img/223010/picture-hosting/gravel.php)

[Justin]

here's the pic

http://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/06/8c48784da712406f0116fae73d6e9906.th.jpg (http://server7.pictiger.com/img/223010/picture-hosting/gravel.php)

Could it be because rocks are on the side walk?

[getmail99]

here's the pic

http://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/06/8c48784da712406f0116fae73d6e9906.th.jpg (http://server7.pictiger.com/img/223010/picture-hosting/gravel.php)

Not that bad, obviously this is any unfinished project. I don't have any problem with that. Just take your time to do it. You can move the gravel a bit making it look like you are working on it. Divide it into two piles. :cheesygri

[M@rk]

here's the pic

http://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/06/8c48784da712406f0116fae73d6e9906.th.jpg (http://server7.pictiger.com/img/223010/picture-hosting/gravel.php)

Wow, that pile doesn't even look that bad... your neighbor needs to get a job or a life.

[gorf]

Awww buddy, just clean it up, there's not alot of gravel there. And while you're at it, get rid of the weeds/grass between your driveway and the city sidewalk and edge your lawn, it looks messy. ;)

[Byrns]

You should be embarrassed for leaving that so long. How long would it take to move it, 30 minutes?

Clean your mess.

[phomp]

You should be embarrassed for leaving that so long. How long would it take to move it, 30 minutes?

Clean your mess.

lol why should he have to move it? its not even a mess.

BTW, if you were going to finish your project you should not let this letter stop you from finishing your project out of spite. Then even though the letter writter (who imo was to scared to confront you) does not know it, he or she is really getting the better of you by you not finishing what you were going to do because of him/her. Who cares if she thinks she/he thinks the letter worked..

[fenrus]

the time it took for you to

-post this thread
-read the responses
-respond to the responses

you probably could've moved all the gravel and made a gravelman out of it.

[brute33]

It looks like most of the responses come from 2 groups of people.
1. People who live in their mom's basement.
2. Homeowners.

I think most homeowners agree that moving the gravel is the best thing to do while non-homeowners will tell you to "F them, do nothing". Once you've actually purchased something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, you'll be much more protective than just having use of something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. What happened to just being nice for the sake of it? Some people just seem so juvenile in a "I'm right and you're wrong" type of mentality.

BEST POST OF THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!

[hytong]

I wonder how much difference in the "value" we are talking about... guys, excesive vegetation, unusual pets is one thing, stable, inert fixture is another thing. Perspective matters. To a child it would be a playground, to a kid it would be their movie prop, to a teenager it becomes ammunition, to the belivers it would be foot massage area and obviously it is the evil in your neighbours eye.

Anyways, assuming the purpose is to resolve the conflict. If compliance is damaging to his/her mojo let me suggest the solution to invite, note: invite, your distinguished neighbour to join with you finishing the project or give away the rocks. This way you could get your project done fast and everyone is happy. Afterall they are the ones who want to speed things up. Otherwise, gamble if you want.

I think this is part of why there are so many countries on this planet each have their own set of rules. Make your choice and give up my friend. Its called culture. Compliance is politeness.

[Sylvestre]

It looks like most of the responses come from 2 groups of people.
1. People who live in their mom's basement.
2. Homeowners.

I think most homeowners agree that moving the gravel is the best thing to do while non-homeowners will tell you to "F them, do nothing". Once you've actually purchased something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, you'll be much more protective than just having use of something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. What happened to just being nice for the sake of it? Some people just seem so juvenile in a "I'm right and you're wrong" type of mentality.

QFT.
The majority of posters on this board ARE juvenile.

[Happy13178]

It looks like most of the responses come from 2 groups of people.
1. People who live in their mom's basement.
2. Homeowners.

I think most homeowners agree that moving the gravel is the best thing to do while non-homeowners will tell you to "F them, do nothing". Once you've actually purchased something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, you'll be much more protective than just having use of something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. What happened to just being nice for the sake of it? Some people just seem so juvenile in a "I'm right and you're wrong" type of mentality.

Just being nice for the sake of it goes both ways. Being nice to the op probably would have avoided his post here and solved the problem amicably. Writing anonymous letters is far more childish than just going up to the guy and explaining/offering to help. Calling the op lazy for not having it done already isn't helpful either...the guy obviously wants to get it done, but has been unable to complete it in the timeframe he would have liked. Perhaps saying **** them about the neighbours isn't the bets way to go about it, but neither should he have to stress himself on his neighbours ideas of what he should and shouldn't do. Calling out a bylaw officer is every bit as juvenile as just going and working things out face to face. If you were in his position, would you want other people browbeating you for not being able to complete come improvements in good time? Homeowners have every right to try and keep the neighbourhood in good shape and looking fine, but the neighbourly thing to do wasn't done here....this is more an every man for himself type thing. There are plenty of jerks expressing opinions in this thread, and not all of them are saying to hell with the neighbours....this is not a black and white issue.

[aquariaguy]

I know that I'd feel insulted/offended at getting a letter like this ... and the temptation would be to be retaliatory.



I don't see how people think getting a letter is insulting and offending. Read the letter, it was polite. Look what would've happened if you lived next to one of the idiots on this board saying stupid things. Good thing they were smart enough to not put the house # down. So many people are revengeful these days it's sad. I think you can determine what kind of neighbours you. Does the OP talk to the 2 next door neighbours? When I first moved in we went to talk to our neighbours to say hi and stuff. So i'm sure if they had a problem with something they'd let us know in face cuz we have that kind of relationship.

[dgmorr]

Your business is your business, but doesn't that get in the way of your car or anything? It is a pretty awkward spot for a pile of gravel.

[yao416]

F*CK your neighbors, can't even say it to your face.

[Bazooka Joe]

I guess anyone can afford a house nowadays... Take some pride in ownership and actually make your house look good. I'd expect a renter to act like that, but how can you not be proud of a house that cost so much and will take so long to pay off?

Your neighbour apparently doesn't want it to be wierd so they wrote you a letter, this was the right thing to do IMO.

[CSAgent]

F*CK your neighbors, can't even say it to your face.

Thanks for proving that these boards are full of juveniles, like you.

Anyway...

Private property is still private property, you should be allowed to conduct how things are run on your own privately owned property. You choose to reap the reputation repercussions. It is not like you are breaking the law, unless there is some law that I don't know about unsightly piles of gravel somewhere...

[Mattones]

i know some people who take care ontheir lawns like crazy. I work with a guy and his older dad about 72ish and he just hates it when people dont take care of their lawn/driveway. The guy next door to him doesnt cut his grass and it just gets to him/ its funny.

But its all up to you man if you want to leave it and get people more upset with you or remove it and get off their books.

[infinite.chaoz]

F*CK your neighbors, can't even say it to your face.

Another stupid post. Seem like you like to resolve problem by engaging in a rather provocative manner. My condolences to your neighbours for having someone like you living beside them.

Thanks for proving that these boards are full of juveniles, like you.


+1!

[Happy13178]

I guess anyone can afford a house nowadays... Take some pride in ownership and actually make your house look good. I'd expect a renter to act like that, but how can you not be proud of a house that cost so much and will take so long to pay off?

Your neighbour apparently doesn't want it to be wierd so they wrote you a letter, this was the right thing to do IMO.

Thing is, if they thought it was weird, then they were doubting whether they should write it at all... Granted they tried to make it polite, but it was still sketchy to send it unsigned.

[GoiNGPoSTaL]

If you want to be a smart ass about it, while still looking like you are doing something, move the pile a few feet/meters at a time.

[Bazooka Joe]

Thing is, if they thought it was weird, then they were doubting whether they should write it at all... Granted they tried to make it polite, but it was still sketchy to send it unsigned.

I meant the post-letter relationship. If I was friendly with a neighbour, but was against something they were doing, I'd think this was a good way to both get my point across and ensure that the relationship with the neighbour didn't change.

[d_jedi]

Originally, I was of the opinion "do it when it makes sense for YOU to move it" (ie. don't do it earlier just b/c someone wrote you a letter.. but neither should you go out of your way to leave it there out of spite.. you did purchase the gravel for a purpose, right? And leaving it there doesn't serve that purpose)

BUT, looking at the pic.. some of the gravel is spilling out onto the sidewalk.. big no no, IMO. That's where it crosses the line, since it affects public enjoyment of public space (probably not a good idea to rollerblade, for ex., on the sidewalk in front of your house!)

Clean up the gravel.. at least move it away from the sidewalk (and if you're going to that much effort.. why not just move it to where you originally intended to?)

[slothy@cutey]

I don't see how people think getting a letter is insulting and offending. Read the letter, it was polite. Look what would've happened if you lived next to one of the idiots on this board saying stupid things. Good thing they were smart enough to not put the house # down. So many people are revengeful these days it's sad. I think you can determine what kind of neighbours you. Does the OP talk to the 2 next door neighbours? When I first moved in we went to talk to our neighbours to say hi and stuff. So i'm sure if they had a problem with something they'd let us know in face cuz we have that kind of relationship.

I agree with you 100%. In fact, my post went on to say the guy should clean it up - end of story.

I just meant that from human nature perspective, I may feel a bit bruised getting a letter like that and my knee-jerk reaction would probably be "what's it any of their business?" or "It's my property, I can do what I want", etc. But reason/reflection would kick in and I'd look at the bigger picture as I've posted in my comment. My point was simply to say no one like to receive a letter like that - it's a bruising feeling just like we don't like people telling us what to do, but once we examine the point and and not the medium within which the point was communicated.... it's clear that the OP should clean up the damn thing.

[Peckerwood]

The letter was not only childish but resonant of something out of Junior High School. The letter itself would be treated the same way as junk mial or door to door solicitation in my world...into the trash it goes.

When my music was too loud my neighbour came over and knocked on the door to ask me to turn it down a tad...he was polite...he was face to face...I respect his independance and agreed to turn it down.

He didn't shy away for fear of confrontation

He didn't get paranoid that I was a gun owner(everyone out here is)

He didn't get beligerant or feel it nessecary to yell at me to get his point across

He was calm cool and collected

Not one of my neighbours has complained about the mess of my yard...instead they chose a much more positive route synonymous with most Northerners...they applauded my efforts when I started cleaning it up and actually offered to help(which I declined because it is my property and thusly my personal responsibility to maintain it)

Of course not all neighbours have been this way...the lady across the creek has threatened both myself and one of the other neighbours with physical harm for being too loud...she felt it nessecary to yell this across the creek at the four of us that were having a late night barbeque and campfire.

Needless to say, she isnt very well liked by anyone on the creek ;)

As a landowner I refuse to tell my neighbours what to do with their property unless it personally affects me negatively. And I refuse to give in to any other land owner unless they can prove that what I am doing ON MY OWN PROPERTY somehow negatively impacts them.

What my property looks like doesnt count.

Owning private property does not automatically mean that you must allow your neighbours immediate access to your schedule or management of said property...THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE THEIR OWN PROPERTY

MYOB ;)

[billdozer]

F*CK your neighbors, can't even say it to your face.

big man on campus

[aquariaguy]

The letter was not only childish but resonant of something out of Junior High School. The letter itself would be treated the same way as junk mial or door to door solicitation in my world...into the trash it goes.

When my music was too loud my neighbour came over and knocked on the door to ask me to turn it down a tad...he was polite...he was face to face...I respect his independance and agreed to turn it down.

He didn't shy away for fear of confrontation

He didn't get paranoid that I was a gun owner(everyone out here is)

He didn't get beligerant or feel it nessecary to yell at me to get his point across

He was calm cool and collected

Not one of my neighbours has complained about the mess of my yard...instead they chose a much more positive route synonymous with most Northerners...they applauded my efforts when I started cleaning it up and actually offered to help(which I declined because it is my property and thusly my personal responsibility to maintain it)

Of course not all neighbours have been this way...the lady across the creek has threatened both myself and one of the other neighbours with physical harm for being too loud...she felt it nessecary to yell this across the creek at the four of us that were having a late night barbeque and campfire.

Needless to say, she isnt very well liked by anyone on the creek ;)

As a landowner I refuse to tell my neighbours what to do with their property unless it personally affects me negatively. And I refuse to give in to any other land owner unless they can prove that what I am doing ON MY OWN PROPERTY somehow negatively impacts them.

What my property looks like doesnt count.

Owning private property does not automatically mean that you must allow your neighbours immediate access to your schedule or management of said property...THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE THEIR OWN PROPERTY

MYOB ;)

You probaly give a better vibe to them. It's all gotta do with the relationship you have with them. Your neighbours are good to you, and u're good to them. It's a mutual feeling.

[stealth]

I think you guys are living in a dream world if you think someone can have a mess on their property, and noone can do anything about it because it's their property.

Last summer my neighbour called the bylaw guys on his neighbour. They had a police officer spend the day at this guy's house while he moved all the junk off of his lawn.

If the condition of your property negatively impacts the property values of your neighbour's, and has been doing so for an unreasonable amount of time (ie. leaving a pile of dirt there for a year), they can have you remove it.

Would you rather be the guy that your neighbour's called the city on, or the guy that does the responsible thing and just cleaned up the mess you've been procrastinating on for a year?

Leave your ego at the door, quit being a dick and clean up your yard, before you end up with hostile neighbour's instead of disgruntled ones.

+1. My father had a property rental business in Toronto. He received frequent calls from inspectors and by-law officers about lots of things that seemed trivial, but were reported by neighbors...fences that need repair, eavestroughs with peeling paint, junk left in the backyard by tenants, you name it....It was always the same, the letter would give you a due date do have it fixed by, or the city would take care of it and give you the bill. The only option was you could stall them if you werea slick talker, but it would never get you off the hook.
Dont fool yourself, theres nothing free in this country, there are plenty of by-laws in effect on how property had to be maintained, if anyone ever wants to call you out on it.

I say be a man, admit it prob looks like crap, and if you dont think so, put the gravel in your backyard or living room and look at it all day long if you dont have a problem with it, but dont force that on the neighborhood. Pick your battles. This one doesnt seem worth it.

[stealth]

The letter was not only childish but resonant of something out of Junior High School. The letter itself would be treated the same way as junk mial or door to door solicitation in my world...into the trash it goes.

When my music was too loud my neighbour came over and knocked on the door to ask me to turn it down a tad...he was polite...he was face to face...I respect his independance and agreed to turn it down.

He didn't shy away for fear of confrontation

He didn't get paranoid that I was a gun owner(everyone out here is)

He didn't get beligerant or feel it nessecary to yell at me to get his point across

He was calm cool and collected

Not one of my neighbours has complained about the mess of my yard...instead they chose a much more positive route synonymous with most Northerners...they applauded my efforts when I started cleaning it up and actually offered to help(which I declined because it is my property and thusly my personal responsibility to maintain it)

Of course not all neighbours have been this way...the lady across the creek has threatened both myself and one of the other neighbours with physical harm for being too loud...she felt it nessecary to yell this across the creek at the four of us that were having a late night barbeque and campfire.

Needless to say, she isnt very well liked by anyone on the creek ;)

As a landowner I refuse to tell my neighbours what to do with their property unless it personally affects me negatively. And I refuse to give in to any other land owner unless they can prove that what I am doing ON MY OWN PROPERTY somehow negatively impacts them.

What my property looks like doesnt count.

Owning private property does not automatically mean that you must allow your neighbours immediate access to your schedule or management of said property...THAT IS WHY THEY HAVE THEIR OWN PROPERTY

MYOB ;)

Things work a little differently in the city where we all live in closer quarters and have a lot less privacy from one another, and a lot more bylaw officers and city inspectors to make the rounds.

I'm not going to judge the letter writer. Not knowing the OP, maybe there is a reason this person would be intimidated by him or fear retribution. At any rate, the OP knows he's offended someone inadvertently and can choose to handle it how he'd like. And know as well that the writer may be able to make things diificult for him as well. I'd just take it as constructive criticism. If I were him, I'd simply post a sign /open letter on the gravel saying something like "I am deeply sorry for offending anyone with this gravel, I have been unable to use it due to....and had no idea it would be deemed such an eye sore....I plan to have it moved within the month etc.." Put in a touch of sarcasm if you'd like.

[Peckerwood]

You people should just get it over with and take out the word Private in private property.

:rolleyes:

Don't like what you see, then grow up and not look, turn your eyes, look the other way. Children tend to stare because they haven't learned to control their simplist of faculties.

Slowly but surely this country is turning into a socialist black hole.

So many people keep going on about how it is somehow miraculously nessecary for the OP to take his responsibilities seriously and "clean up that mess"...but nobody here has actually answered the big question...How does chipped paint or a small pile of gravel negatively impact anyone else?

It is nothing more than an opportunity for neighbours to power trip on other neighbours, when they give in to ridiculous demands.

[stealth]

Thanks for proving that these boards are full of juveniles, like you.

Anyway...

Private property is still private property, you should be allowed to conduct how things are run on your own privately owned property. You choose to reap the reputation repercussions. It is not like you are breaking the law, unless there is some law that I don't know about unsightly piles of gravel somewhere...

Not if your town has by-laws like these (most do). This one is from Pickering:
Maintenance of Yards and Vacant Lots
4. All yards shall be kept clean and free of rubbish, garbage, litter or other
debris and free from objects or conditions that may create an unsafe
condition.
5. All yards shall be free of dilapidated or collapsed structures.
6. All yards shall be kept clean and free from termites, wood eating insects,
rodents, vermin and other pests and any condition which might result in
the harbouring of such pests.
7. All yards, except those used in connection with active agricultural
operations, shall be protected by ground cover which prevents erosion of
the soil.
8. Plants, vegetation and grass shall be kept trimmed or maintained so as not
to become a nuisance. Heavy undergrowth and noxious weeds shall be
controlled.
9. Hedges, trees or other plantings shall be maintained in a living condition,
and shall be removed within a reasonable time after their death.

and

PART IV RESIDENTIAL PROPERTIES - ADDITIONAL STANDARDS
Maintenance of Yards
82. Any vehicles, including a trailer or boat, or mechanical equipment, which
is in a wrecked, discarded, dismantled or abandoned condition shall not be
parked, stored or left in a yard.
83. There shall be a surfaced pedestrian walkway leading from every building
to the street. A surfaced driveway in excess of 2.5 metres in width may
form part of the walkway.

http://cityofpickering.com/standard/cityhall/bylaws/images/property.pdf
Sarnia's is pretty much the same: http://www.city.sarnia.on.ca/pdf/By_Law_67_of_2005.pdf

Here's what Regina's says:
http://www.regina.ca/content/info_services/bylaws/index.shtml

Bylaw enforcement officers are responsible for:

Misuse of private/public property (Zoning Bylaw/Clean Property Bylaw)
Safe public access
Traffic Bylaw (specific sections)
Noise Abatement Bylaw (specific sections)
Building Bylaw (specific sections)
Parks Bylaw (specific sections)
Domestic Pigeon Control Bylaw
Forestry Bylaw (specific sections)
Noxious Weeds Act.
Property standards inspectors are responsible for:

Minimum maintenance standards;
Dilipated structures;
Dangerous unoccupied unsecured buildings;
Untidy/unsightly properties;
Junked vehicles;
Unsafe properties;
Alley litter. (enforcement only, must be verified by eye witness statement.)
If you would like to report a problem in your neighbourhood or would just like more information, please call (306)777-7000.

[stealth]

You people should just get it over with and take out the word Private in private property.

:rolleyes:

Don't like what you see, then grow up and not look, turn your eyes, look the other way. Children tend to stare because they haven't learned to control their simplist of faculties.

Slowly but surely this country is turning into a socialist black hole.

So many people keep going on about how it is somehow miraculously nessecary for the OP to take his responsibilities seriously and "clean up that mess"...but nobody here has actually answered the big question...How does chipped paint or a small pile of gravel negatively impact anyone else?
It is nothing more than an opportunity for neighbours to power trip on other neighbours, when they give in to ridiculous demands.

It doesnt. But it doesnt matter, if the laws are in place, we're stuck with them and are obliged to obey them...or move to Whitehorse :)

[fenrus]

Don't like what you see, then grow up and not look, turn your eyes, look the other way. Children tend to stare because they haven't learned to control their simplist of faculties.

fine, how about I walk around naked in your face all day. You don't have to look. I'm not in your way.

It is nothing more than an opportunity for neighbours to power trip on other neighbours, when they give in to ridiculous demands.

geez, you really think the entire world is out to get you or something?

There's nothing wrong with that letter. As many stated, it's polite. it's doesn't say: 'WTF NOOB, FIX YOUR GRAVEL!'

and 1 year to have junk sitting in your drive way is a long time.

[Peckerwood]

fine, how about I walk around naked in your face all day. You don't have to look. I'm not in your way.
Now you're making sense...unless of course you have a problem with naked people and can't control your own sensibilities in front of them.

You do not have a Right to not be Offended

;)
geez, you really think the entire world is out to get you or something?

There's nothing wrong with that letter. As many stated, it's polite. it's doesn't say: 'WTF NOOB, FIX YOUR GRAVEL!'

and 1 year to have junk sitting in your drive way is a long time.
Explain how the rocks are a serious problem to warrant the intrusion by other people onto the daily matters of someone's private property.

[Peckerwood]

It doesnt. But it doesnt matter, if the laws are in place, we're stuck with them and are obliged to obey them...or move to Whitehorse :)
So long as you follow laws that infringe on personal freedom or rights, then those laws will remain on the books until contested. Laws are born of legislatures...they are defeated through contestation and the ability to enforce them adequately without violating rights.

Explain how the gravel pile infringes on the neighbours' right to Enjoyment of Property...keep in mind that that Right does not mean that they have a Right to be Offended or a Right to enjoy Everyone else's Property.

The Right to Enjoyment of Property has been taken as a Private and Personal Right...not a Public Right.

[rc51]

Stop saying it was the civilized thing to do people. Writing a letter is gutless. It's something that should properly be done face to face.

I don't understand why people thing this is a guts thing.... the letter is a paper trail. Are you 100% sure there are no by-laws in your area that you could be in violation of?

How do you know whoever wrote the letter already hasn't contacted the city and that's what they were told...to initiate initial contact and try to solve it.

I know in Calgary, a pile of crap like that wouldn't last a month, the city itself would send someone to clean it up and then they'd send me the bill. Same
thing goes for snow removal and illegaly parked recreation vehicles...some of the bylaws are a pain, but they clearly define what you can do and what you can't....private property or not.

[rc51]

Could it be because rocks are on the side walk?

I would love for a lawyer type's kid to be roller blading around that area, hit your gravel on the side walk and then get daddy to sue you..... would you move your pile after that?

[justlam_]

make a gravel man at da front like u wud in da winter time of a snowman

[Peckerwood]

What kind of paper trail is it if it isn't signed or notarized etc...good luck passing that off in a court of law.

More comments from the "experts"

:rolleyes:

[slothy@cutey]

...but nobody here has actually answered the big question...How does chipped paint or a small pile of gravel negatively impact anyone else?

1) Makes the street look shi**y for everyone who lives there and drives past it to and from their homes

2) Potential to impact appearance of neighbourhood/property values for the street

3) Opens the possibility for copycat behaviour (ie. permissive effect as in when someone tosses garbage on the street, others are less likely to properly dispose of their trash rather than be the first to taint a pristine setting)

4) Safety issues (ie. kids playing and possibly can get hurt, or spillover onto the sidewalk can cause an accident). If you don't think there's liability involved there... google the term "attractive nuissance" in the insurance context.

5) Other neighbours probably feel the same way but haven't gone to the trouble of penning a letter - OP is aggravating other neighbours on the street making negatively impacting the mood/atmosphere of the community.

6) Due to gravel pile, is OP forced to park more frequently on the street? That can also be an irritant to some people... afterall that's why houses have driveways - for cars... not unfinished construction projects.

7) I'm sure the gravel isn't confined by some magic forcesheild into an invisible pyramid enclosure. Surely in a year's time and season cycles, dust is being blow around from it and gravel is migrating to the sidewalk(s), road, etc. ... That can't be good for pedestrians AND vehicles as well.

8) The poor pizza delivery guy can't drive into OP's driveway to deliver a pizza, or at night, maybe he does and smashes up his car... :)

Need I go on? OP should smarten up and just clean the damn thing up instead of debating it!

[broc]

Take their comments lightly, obviously they were scared to confront you in person. Have a sense of humor about it, plant a white flag in the middle of the pile for a few days. :D

Then get your butt in gear and clean it up. I imagine the gravel is a nuisance for you being on your driveway anyways.

lol, this really is the best idea. Put up a white flag in the pile for 3-4 days, then clean it up. Really, it's been a year- what are you waiting for?

I agree that not moving it at all b/c someone wrote a letter asking you to is pretty babyish. Don't be a baby- clean up the mess.

[Peckerwood]

1) Vanity

2) Property values reduced because of vanity?...over a single pile of gravel? You are stretching

3) One pile of gravel will ultimately lead to others immediately demeaning their own property values by throwing trash everywhere...despite the fact that they dont like trash anywhere?...Use logic much?

4) Oh no...not scrapes and bruises...say it aint so... :eek: I got scrapes as a kid on the sidewalk and on the street...funny how my parents never sued the city :rolleyes:

5) Probably? If they are aggravated then they would have penned a letter a long time ago

6) Are you asking a question? if so then dont make a direct assumption based on a question with no answer.

7) OMG...an irritant called dust...how did mankind ever survive such things...more sensationalism over a pile of small rocks. The rain actually settles the smaller particulates to the bottom of the pile...more about dirt that you dont know :)

8) And to think the pizza guy actually has a driver's licence but can't see a pile of dirt...wow...now we will have to introduce more sensationalism and actually re-establish our protocols for teaching new drivers due to a single pile of dirt...oh the horror and wasted tax dollars over a pile of dirt

Need I go on?
Nope...you can end the charade of sensationalism now.

A pile of dirt that is such a pressing matter that requires the immediate attention of everyone to wait an entire year before considering it an immediate pressing concern.

As for property values? A neighbourhood that has property so valuable that in turn has middle to upper class members of the community all worried about one lone poverty stricken member with a pile of gravel in his yard that will reduce them all to lower classed citizens...how did he afford the property in the first place? Lottery?

Really...try using actual logic next time instead.

Higher property values mean higher land taxes and a lesser chance of actual resale in the future. Also...nobody would ever want to buy a property that has a lone neighbour with gravel...OMGZORZ

:rolleyes:

[HunkaHunkaBurningLove]

Anonymous letters are actually pretty good when a person doesn't want to be identified. Cowardice you say? Naw, it's just a smart way to cover your tracks just in case you want to do something more. Just let your mind wander for a moment. Say said neighbour is someone who is a bit on edge, slightly unstable, and doesn't mind dabbling in illegal activities. Honestly, how well do we know our neighbours? :cheesygri

Ever see the crazy things people do in road rage incidents? I don't think that they open their windows and offer their names with a friendly hello before trying to run people off the road. These people must live somewhere and have neighbours too.

I'm not saying that the OP should bend over backwards to whatever his neighbours demand, but instead I suggest that he consider that the request given isn't an unreasonable one considering the length of time the pile has been there. If his neighbours left a pile of fresh cow manure for the back garden on their driveways for a year, would he be tickled pink about that?

That story about the guy with the RX-7 was an interesting extreme that shows how these type of community problems can escalate instead of being diffused. I would have suggested that the neighbours in that case have a nice little gasoline molotov cocktail bonfire/target practice, but that would be a bit on edge, slightly unstable, and on the illegal side of things. :D There's a wealth of interesting things that could be done in that situation I'm sure - just ask any teenager to think some up. I bet you though that really no one was the winner in that situation.

I still would suggest to the OP that a win-win situation might be the best approach rather than the win-f/u route that some have suggested in this thread.

[Peckerwood]

Anonymous letters are actually pretty good when a person doesn't want to be identified. Cowardice you say? Naw, it's just a smart way to cover your tracks just in case you want to do something more. Just let your mind wander for a moment. Say said neighbour is someone who is a bit on edge, slightly unstable, and doesn't mind dabbling in illegal activities. Honestly, how well do we know our neighbours? :cheesygri
Basically you say it isn't cowardice...but then make the case for an anonymous cowardly attack...to which it is then cowardice. Arguing that if the primary request to work on his property to secure the neighbour's own hold on the "offender's" time isn't enough, that the neighbour is somehow justified in becoming violent? Over a pile of gravel?

:rolleyes:
Ever see the crazy things people do in road rage incidents? I don't think that they open their windows and offer their names with a friendly hello before trying to run people off the road. These people must live somewhere and have neighbours too.
I am wondering where you are getting all of these violent fantasies from. Do you really think that people are this violent to bring a fight to a gravel pit?
I'm not saying that the OP should bend over backwards to whatever his neighbours demand, but instead I suggest that he consider that the request given isn't an unreasonable one considering the length of time the pile has been there.
Actually you are saying that the neighbour should bend over backwards to follow suit on a request(regardless of how polite) to work on his own property at his own cost by a neighbour that actually has no vested concern in the results other than vanity itself...with the potential threat of furthered "action"
If his neighbours left a pile of fresh cow manure for the back garden on their driveways for a year, would he tickled pink about that?
How does a pile of stinking manure that attracts flies and filth somehow relate to a pile of gravel that does neither?
That story about the guy with the RX-7 was an interesting extreme that shows how these type of community problems can escalate instead of being diffused. I would have suggested that the neighbours in that case have a nice little gasoline molotov cocktail bonfire/target practice, but that would be a bit on edge, slightly unstable, and on the illegal side of things. :D There's a wealth of interesting things that could be done in that situation I'm sure - just ask any teenager to think some up. I bet you though that really no one was the winner in that situation.
Again...more violent fantasies and illegal discussions...how enlightening a look into the city mind
I still would suggest to the OP that a win-win situation might be the best approach rather than the win-f/u route that some have suggested in this thread.
The OP should do to his property what he wishes in his own time and not in the timeframe dictated to him by neighbours that neither live on that property nor have a vested interest in it other than their inability to avert their eyes.

;)

Too many people that wish to trade in their Liberty for Vanity and shallow appearances...sad really

[Emancipated]

It is your property and you should be able to do what you want provided no community bylaws are standing in the way of your expression. I agree with the people who have said the neighbours at least expressed their views diplomatically. It's not being cowardice to send a letter; this way it is less likely to escalate into a confrontation.

That all said, it's only natural instinct to feel a little hurt by this as your neighbours think it is unsightly while you may look at it as nothing more than a little mound. Try not to think of all the negative connotations, except that we all have busy lives and sometimes little things like these get left on the wayside.

Lastly, it's better to maintain good relations with neighbours. You don't want little things like this to linger and fester into something bigger.

[Emancipated]

lol, this really is the best idea. Put up a white flag in the pile for 3-4 days, then clean it up. Really, it's been a year- what are you waiting for?

I agree that not moving it at all b/c someone wrote a letter asking you to is pretty babyish. Don't be a baby- clean up the mess.

It's an excellent way of breaking the ice. The neighbour may even come out of their anonymity and invite you to their next bar-be-que knowing you have such a sense of humour about it.

[Happy13178]

I'm not saying that the OP should bend over backwards to whatever his neighbours demand, but instead I suggest that he consider that the request given isn't an unreasonable one considering the length of time the pile has been there. If his neighbours left a pile of fresh cow manure for the back garden on their driveways for a year, would he be tickled pink about that?


The OP isn't saying the request is an unreasonable one....he's said that he'd like to finish it but has been unable to find the time to do it as quickly as he would have liked. And I've had a neighbour that used to put out cow manure every year, and it would sit for almost a month each time before he did anything about it. The difference is, we went and spoke to him when it became an issue, face to face, offered to help him out with it, chatted....this is the way it should have been done in this case.

[Sylvestre]

It's really sad to see that people would purposely choose to do nothing just to spite someone when it takes almost no effort to be nice and do something considerate.

Whatever happend to being a good neighbour? Whatever happended to taking the high road?

[rubberband]

I can't understand the juvenile responses to this post..

That pile of gravel is fugly. The letter was polite. Sure, it would make more sense to go talk to the homeowner in person, but not all neighbourhoods are one big happy family where that sort of thing is done.

It's been there for a year, and looks like crap. The OP should deal with it.

[mlc2000]

Your wife put up with this crap for a year?

Get a shovel and clean it up, and take a little pride in your home.

Or if you no longer have a use for this last 2 yard of gravel,

offer it to your neighbours,as a gesture of goodwill.


Goodwill has a way of repeating itself in the neighbourhood.

[Peckerwood]

People that are somehow more concerned with the looks of a property rather than the people that live on the property, that choose instead to write anonymous letters for fear of actual human contact; are then going to go to the lengths to have a barbeque and participate in a social gathering or environment that is completely contradictory to their actions thus far?

You are kidding right?

If they wanted to get to know the guy they would have done so already and then started the first few neighbourhood barbeques and then made mention about the gravel pit that way instead.

The neighbour is already living in a shell...no amount of letters or white flags will change that.

I personally wouldnt bother associating with neighbours that don't have the simple courage or decency to come out and meet their neighbours head on in a personal engagement...I value any neighbour that has the desire to speak directly to their other neighbours...openly...and directly.

My neighbours all present themselves in a direct fashion, and make candid comments straight from the heart without fear of retribution or retaliation. Barbeques and campfire gatherings are a common occurence out here where neighbour's all have to know each other and rely on each other for reasons other than the looks of our properties. (bears, thieves, hunting)

When I first moved out here, I had numerous contacts from each of the neighbours, as well as waves from passing vehicles as they drove in to work.

Those are the types of people I want to meet...and so far I have met 85% of the people that live on this creek...how many of you can boast the same in your neighbourhood?

Come out of your shells...meet the neighbours...throw a barbeque instead of waiting for them to do it...be candid and straight forward, calm, cool, collected. The key root here is that there are people living in those homes...those are who you should be getting to know...not the looks of their properties.

[Dr Butcher]

The OP must not live in Scarborough, otherwise the gravel would have been stolen by now.

I have had interlocking stone, bricks, top soil, and sod all stolen after it was delivered. This was over a matter of days not years.

When we bought our house I collected all the leftover bricks and piled them in the garage (before the garage doors were installed). I drove up one day and an Asian family was loading up their car with the bricks I'd piled up. I told them to put the bricks back which they did.

The next night the bricks were gone.

[kitbor]

Ask the neighbor of your to help you move. Otherwise, pour the cement and make it a Canada flag pole.

[felix]

Anonymous letters are actually pretty good when a person doesn't want to be identified. Cowardice you say? Naw, it's just a smart way to cover your tracks just in case you want to do something more. Just let your mind wander for a moment. Say said neighbour is someone who is a bit on edge, slightly unstable, and doesn't mind dabbling in illegal activities. Honestly, how well do we know our neighbours? :cheesygri

I agree. It's the smartest thing to do to protect yourself and your family while doing your neighbourhood a favour. And it took just 130+ posts for someone to mention this. :cheesygri



I know in Calgary, a pile of crap like that wouldn't last a month, the city itself would send someone to clean it up and then they'd send me the bill. Same
thing goes for snow removal and illegaly parked recreation vehicles...some of the bylaws are a pain, but they clearly define what you can do and what you can't....private property or not.
Wish we had that here in GTA. I guess that's why Calgary was rated #1 cleanest city in Canada (or was it cleanest in the world?). But no, I wouldn't move to Calgary just for this reason. :)

[2004]

I haven't read through all the replies, but my take on it is that I don't see anything wrong with the letter. I would of done the same. It's easier to write the letter than confront you personally and then have tension between neighbors, at least this way you don't really know who complained. But even though it is your property, it's still good to respect your property and have it look good. Others can leave piles of junk on their driveway and say the same excuse, I'm sure you wouldn't like that. Even though you have intentions of using the gravel again, the lenght of time on your driveway doesn't look good. Plus it makes the neighborhood look bad, like people don't care for their property. Move the gravel to the side of the house, in the garage, somewhere where it isn't an eyesore to the street. Just my two cents, well more. Hopefully it will end nicely, last thing you want is to be the outcast on the street.

[ullyeus]

Your neighbor seems courteous and pleasant.

I'd go over and apologize and say you appreciate the reminder.

Course, judging by the fact they had to use a letter...and by this post...you may or may not be the most pleasant person to deal with.

[HunkaHunkaBurningLove]

Basically you say it isn't cowardice...but then make the case for an anonymous cowardly attack...to which it is then cowardice. Arguing that if the primary request to work on his property to secure the neighbour's own hold on the "offender's" time isn't enough, that the neighbour is somehow justified in becoming violent? Over a pile of gravel?

:rolleyes:

I suppose you can call it what you will, but actually my point was that an anonymous letter allows the person sending it a much wider range of options - some of which may be undesirable depending on that person. Strategically, anonymity does tend to give the other party an upperhand. Whether you want to accept the fact or not that certain people have done very bad things over trivial matters is up to you. I'm sure the OP's neighbourhood isn't exactly a warzone, but can he be certain of how level headed and upstanding his neighbours really are?

I know someone who actually was going to buy a gun and shoot his neighbour for doing something you would likely consider very trivial. To say the least, there was mental illness involved. Luckily this person didn't go through with the plans. This was in an upscale neighbourhood in a peaceful area, and it wasn't in a big city. Maybe you don't have mentally ill people in Whitehorse and all the neighbours are chummy best friends. I wish it were like that everywhere!

I am wondering where you are getting all of these violent fantasies from. Do you really think that people are this violent to bring a fight to a gravel pit?

I guess I watch too much TV - either that or I just like to explore the extremes to open people's eyes a bit wider. :cheesygri I have read a few news articles about people who have commited terrible crimes over silly things that most people would not have expected.

You might be surprised that sometimes it doesn't take much to push someone already strung out over the edge. There was that one student who took his rage out by shooting his student "neighbours" in Montreal. You might say apples and oranges, but these things can and do occur.

Actually you are saying that the neighbour should bend over backwards to follow suit on a request(regardless of how polite) to work on his own property at his own cost by a neighbour that actually has no vested concern in the results other than vanity itself...with the potential threat of furthered "action"

No, I'm saying that the OP should consider moving the pile since it's offending a good neighbour, but he shouldn't have to follow a 100 point list of irrelevant requests from his neighbours.

I'm just curious - if you get along with your neighbours so well, if one of them asked you "courageously" and politely in person to remove a similar pile on your property, would you remove it even if you didn't think their reasoning was valid? Of course they wouldn't do such a thing, but say someone did happen to ask.


How does a pile of stinking manure that attracts flies and filth somehow relate to a pile of gravel that does neither?

Again...more violent fantasies and illegal discussions...how enlightening a look into the city mind

The manure was just an example of a slightly more offending material. Where do you draw the line? A pile of marbles, a kiddie pool of non-offending piranhas, a rusting pile of scrap metal that does not give off odour or dust, a stack of discarded PC boards due for the landfill next year when I have the time...

I guess the fact that someone got shot in the Hamptons here in Calgary last week kind of shows what kind of people are running around out there. I wonder if the killer attends his neighbourhood BBQ's - you just never know do you? I find that sometimes if you consider the extreme scenarios, it can open your eyes about the sort of things that can and do happen. I was joking about the molotov cocktails, but hey if I being of semi-sound mind thought up something like that - consider what an unstable person might do.


The OP should do to his property what he wishes in his own time and not in the timeframe dictated to him by neighbours that neither live on that property nor have a vested interest in it other than their inability to avert their eyes.

;)

Too many people that wish to trade in their Liberty for Vanity and shallow appearances...sad really

What's with these anonymous messages posted? Post your real name and address into this thread - I'd love to move next to you! I'm gonna build me a big pile of non-offending material on my driveway for that project I'm going to start in 6 years. I want me a piece of that Liberty! ;)

[Peckerwood]

I'm sure the OP's neighbourhood isn't exactly a warzone, but can he be certain of how level headed and upstanding his neighbours really are?
Translation: "Psychopathic behaviour is an anomaly to which a fraction of a percentile are actually present in the population, so paranoia over a potential nutball is the obvious answer, to which everyone's rights and freedoms must be suspended"
I know someone who actually was going to buy a gun and shoot his neighbour for doing something you would likely consider very trivial. To say the least, there was mental illness involved. Luckily this person didn't go through with the plans. This was in an upscale neighbourhood in a peaceful area, and it wasn't in a big city. Maybe you don't have mentally ill people in Whitehorse and all the neighbours are chummy best friends. I wish it were like that everywhere!
Newsflash...violent criminals can get and already do have guns...Despite all of the restrictions anyone can get a gun on the street.
I guess I watch too much TV - either that or I just like to explore the extremes to open people's eyes a bit wider. :cheesygri I have read a few news articles about people who have commited terrible crimes over silly things that most people would not have expected.
Translation: "People will snap at any moment and rights must be removed because they happen so infrequently"
You might be surprised that sometimes it doesn't take much to push someone already strung out over the edge. There was that one student who took his rage out by shooting his student "neighbours" in Montreal. You might say apples and oranges, but these things can and do occur.
Translation: "We must remove rights for fear of a potential lunatic and anyone who would want to defend themselves against such a lunatic is paranoid"
No, I'm saying that the OP should consider moving the pile since it's offending a good neighbour, but he shouldn't have to follow a 100 point list of irrelevant requests from his neighbours.
They do not have a right not to be offended.
I'm just curious - if you get along with your neighbours so well, if one of them asked you "courageously" and politely in person to remove a similar pile on your property, would you remove it even if you didn't think their reasoning was valid? Of course they wouldn't do such a thing, but say someone did happen to ask.
No...there is no valid reasoning for them to request a change to my property or the minding of what is happening on it, except of course it negatively affects them directly.

Vanity is not an excuse...even if they have no control over their own bodily functions such as eye movement.
The manure was just an example of a slightly more offending material. Where do you draw the line? A pile of marbles, a kiddie pool of non-offending piranhas, a rusting pile of scrap metal that does not give off odour or dust, a stack of discarded PC boards due for the landfill next year when I have the time...
As long as it does not breach the property line or directly affect the neighbours negatively then it doesnt matter.
I guess the fact that someone got shot in the Hamptons here in Calgary last week kind of shows what kind of people are running around out there. I wonder if the killer attends his neighbourhood BBQ's - you just never know do you? I find that sometimes if you consider the extreme scenarios, it can open your eyes about the sort of things that can and do happen. I was joking about the molotov cocktails, but hey if I being of semi-sound mind thought up something like that - consider what an unstable person might do.
"For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." Jeff Snyder

[ferkel]

I don't think the color of a garage has anything to do with property value.

The amount of silly comments on here does not surprise me that the neighbour gave a letter.

You kids have never seen the pink, orange, garage doors some people have.

Ya.. clean up the gravel... have some respect for your neighbors and move it to your backyard.

[Menace]

The first step to turn your neighborhood into a ghetto.

[PCDawg]

Check out my scenerio.

I order some gravel delivered to my house last summer. The company came and I instructed them not to dump it onto my driveway as it was a single garage. (markham by-laws doesnt allow us to park on the streets overnite as I had to use my driveway. I had a fairly large order of bags of gravel so they place two wooden skids of gravel right in front of our house.

The two skids of gravel was bounded by the clear wrap and it was neatly placed on the road right in front of our house. I was planning on working on it in a timely fashion. (remove grass/sod on the side of the house and layering it with gravel). I ended up busy that weekend so i didnt ahve time to work on it. Another weekend came and it was raining so again, i couldnt work on it.

Well about 2 1/2 weeks past and someone from the town of markham came and was about to give us a fine!!! I told them that the pile was neatly placed right in front and it should not bother anyone since it was not in any way of cars going through the street. (You can park cars on both curbs and a car can still drive through fine.) I mentioned that we could have placed it on our driveway but the bylaws state that we can not park overnite on the street. I showed them the receipt that it was ordered not too long ago.

The inspector looked it over and agreed that it was in no one's way and was not hazardous as it was completely secured. He told us he will let it slide but to try to get rid of it soon. I did ask him was there a by-law that we cant put that stuff there and he said no, the city does give sufficent time for people to clean it up, but they received a complaint from someone in the neighbourhood.

That rung a bell, it was our neighbours. They have several cars and always parked right in front of our house and across the neighbours during the day so that they dont need to pull the other cars in and out of the driveway. But now that the skids were they they were forced to park further down on the street.

if they had sopmething to say, why complain to the city? Its a nice neighbourhood and all, but I dont tihnk i was being unreasonable in just leaving the stuff there.

[Narci]

Yeah..the city enforcer in PCdawgs story is correct. The OP had 1 year to remove the pile. If the neighbours really wanted too, they could contact the city and have you fined for it.

I did some digging around before and have come across by-laws that relate to this.

It's just like the driveway bylaw, you can't have a certain percentage of your front yard made into a driveway.

Some cities have by-laws where your not allowed to park 'junk' cars or boats in the driveway.

Here's the by-law for the city of toronto:

http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/municode/1184_629.pdf

§ 629-10. Maintenance of yards and property.
A. Nothing in this section shall be deemed to prevent the lawful storage and keeping of
material in or on any non-residential property, if a lawful use requiring that material
is conducted on the property and the materials are stored in a neat and orderly
fashion.
B. All yards and any other part of a property shall be kept clean and free from
accumulations of junk, rubbish, brush, refuse, litter, garbage and other debris, and
any conditions that are health, fire or other hazards.
C. All yards and any other part of a property shall be kept clean and free from
dilapidated, collapsed or unfinished structures.
D. No mechanical equipment, vehicle, trailer or boat or a remnant or any part of them,
or that is in a wrecked, discarded, dismantled or inoperative condition shall be
parked, stored or left in a yard, unless it is lawfully permitted to use the yard for this
purpose.

§ 629-23. Steps, walks, driveways, parking and loading areas.
F. All areas of a yard that are used for vehicular traffic or the parking or storage of a
vehicle or that are surfaced with a material impervious to water shall be:
(1) Kept free from dirt, surface dust and refuse;

[killuminati]

Take their comments lightly, obviously they were scared to confront you in person. Have a sense of humor about it, plant a white flag in the middle of the pile for a few days. :D

Then get your butt in gear and clean it up. I imagine the gravel is a nuisance for you being on your driveway anyways.


Thats the answer right there... This thread got ultra serious. Lighten up and get errrr done, haha.

[Happy13178]

I haven't read through all the replies, but my take on it is that I don't see anything wrong with the letter. I would of done the same. It's easier to write the letter than confront you personally and then have tension between neighbors, at least this way you don't really know who complained.

So instead of tension between 2 neighbours, you have suspicion of all of them?

[stevethewheel]

That's funny. I didn't read the OP's post as being about legalities.

I read it as about being neighbourly.

If you were going to use up the gravel anyway, then let your ego go and just use it up. The neighbours will think that you 'listened' and maybe you just put some credit in your bank account.

If you were my neighbour and I had a complaint I'd talk to you when we were both outside doing stuff, but not everyone is comfortable with that.

[UrbanPoet]

why dont you build a fence around your house thats about 6 inches away from their property line.
THen you paint their side of the fence pink as revenge!!!

[the one]

This thread is a pile of...... gravel. :lol:

Interesting discussion so far. :arrowu:

[rf134a]

Just being nice for the sake of it goes both ways. Being nice to the op probably would have avoided his post here and solved the problem amicably. Writing anonymous letters is far more childish than just going up to the guy and explaining/offering to help. Calling the op lazy for not having it done already isn't helpful either...the guy obviously wants to get it done, but has been unable to complete it in the timeframe he would have liked. Perhaps saying **** them about the neighbours isn't the bets way to go about it, but neither should he have to stress himself on his neighbours ideas of what he should and shouldn't do. Calling out a bylaw officer is every bit as juvenile as just going and working things out face to face. If you were in his position, would you want other people browbeating you for not being able to complete come improvements in good time? Homeowners have every right to try and keep the neighbourhood in good shape and looking fine, but the neighbourly thing to do wasn't done here....this is more an every man for himself type thing. There are plenty of jerks expressing opinions in this thread, and not all of them are saying to hell with the neighbours....this is not a black and white issue.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the letter. This world has become quite dangerous lately. It used to be safe to go shopping, but now there are drive-by shootings. It's not an everyday occurrence but neither is having a pile of gravel on your driveway. Calling bylaw is probably the last thing I'd do, but there comes a time when it's necessary. If I was in his position, having people pester me into finishing the job will probably work. Unfortunately, sometimes using a whip is faster than using a carrot. Now, I have to go finish hammering some poles into the ground...

[Alvito]

clean it up.

[HunkaHunkaBurningLove]

Translation: "Psychopathic behaviour is an anomaly to which a fraction of a percentile are actually present in the population, so paranoia over a potential nutball is the obvious answer, to which everyone's rights and freedoms must be suspended"

:confused: Thanks for translating my plain English statements into statements with entirely new meanings. I don't recall making a blanket statement about suspending rights and freedoms here, but I guess if that's how you want to interpret it go with it I guess. :confused: I thought I was trying to issue a slight caution to those who think they can go around infringing on everyone else's enjoyment of the common area in a neighbourhood. I do believe that the OP is still free to do whatever the heck he wants with that pile o' gravel even if he wants to ignore what possible things can happen.

Let me save you the work of translating the above: "What the heck are you talking about?"

Newsflash...violent criminals can get and already do have guns...Despite all of the restrictions anyone can get a gun on the street.

Um exactly. Even the odd ball neighbour who is a letter writer can pick up a weapon pretty easily.

Translation: "People will snap at any moment and rights must be removed because they happen so infrequently"

Okay, I see a pattern here. Fine, yeah, you know I'm gonna snap here at any moment if you keep on mistranslating everything I write. I'm going to write the Whitehorse city council a letter requesting that your rights be removed at once because of this.

Translation: "We must remove rights for fear of a potential lunatic and anyone who would want to defend themselves against such a lunatic is paranoid"

BLAM BLAM!! (You didn't see it, but I just shot a hole in my monitor at your posting) Darnafn.,. now i canast aseee what ikma am typinga,;. Okay, got my spare monitor up and running... Here's some advice - instead of translating what people write, try to just read statements without embellishing them for the sake of sensationalism. You will save yourself and other people a lot of confusion I think.

They do not have a right not to be offended.

Not that I don't disagree with you here, but I do think that it isn't correct not to have a right to be not unoffended. Someone - just shoot me and end this please!

No...there is no valid reasoning for them to request a change to my property or the minding of what is happening on it, except of course it negatively affects them directly.

Vanity is not an excuse...even if they have no control over their own bodily functions such as eye movement.

As long as it does not breach the property line or directly affect the neighbours negatively then it doesnt matter.

I would say that something that might affect the property values in the neighbourhood might be considered negative. If your neighbours decided to paint their houses neon yellow and green, build little piles of rusting car parts on their driveways, and store old broken bicycle frames on their lawn would you be okay with that? Certainly in this case of a pile of gravel, it isn't that extreme. But it's not always gravel in other neighbourhoods...

"For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding." Jeff Snyder

"Do onto others as you would have them do onto you." Golden Rule

Well that's it for me in this thread. It's been entertaining, but I know better than to argue with people who have already made up their minds.

[Peckerwood]

:confused: Thanks for translating my plain English statements into statements with entirely new meanings. I don't recall making a blanket statement about suspending rights and freedoms here, but I guess if that's how you want to interpret it go with it I guess.
Your statements have been repeated by others in the past and thusly guided in that very same direction. That rights and freedoms have been historically removed with the same logic by Communists, Socialists, and tinpot tyrants should have alarm bells ringing in your head.

Collectivism is the elimination of the individual...thusly the elimination of Liberty and Individual Autonomy traded for an illusion called "the whole"...a "whole" that afterwards spirals into bland assimilation and loss of personal identity, all to facilitate a falsehood called Nationalism...and thusly Central Authority being the natural result.

Those that assimilate easily are the ones than spew forth the word YES at every request by those that govern...they are easily led and allow others to think for them and make their conclusions.

Such things always start small...baby steps that in turn lead to leaps and bounds. There is no other reason to request of me to do something on my own time with my own money on my own property than the desire to fuel a sadistic need for controlling others.
I thought I was trying to issue a slight caution to those who think they can go around infringing on everyone else's enjoyment of the common area in a neighbourhood.
Where is the property line?...there is nothing "common" about private property and to think otherwise is reticent of communism(A system in which private property rights don't exist amoung a slew of other rights that are also hindered and frowned upon)
I do believe that the OP is still free to do whatever the heck he wants with that pile o' gravel even if he wants to ignore what possible things can happen.
No, you were imaging what things you have thought of...they came from your brain...hence they are projections of your own violent fantasies.
Let me save you the work of translating the above: "What the heck are you talking about?"
Simply put: Your logic is paradoxical...you seem to think that the only way to have freedom is to give up your rights and be governed by an outside source...that source being the fallacy of collectivism. Liberty is not something that can be granted or authorized by a governing force or collective...it is a natural birthright...it can only be recognized or removed. Authority is incapable of giving freedom to anyone since it's primary role is to govern and limit Liberty at every turn.
Um exactly. Even the odd ball neighbour who is a letter writer can pick up a weapon pretty easily.
Obviously...but your inference is to project the violent fantasies that you associate with that weapon in attempting to facilitate an influence towards neighbours through force or negative sanction. This type of activity works well on unarmed victims
Okay, I see a pattern here. Fine, yeah, you know I'm gonna snap here at any moment if you keep on mistranslating everything I write.
:rolleyes: It isn't a mistranslation of your paradoxical logic...I am simply showing where your logic naturally leads. That and your desire to "snap" if you don't get your way.
I'm going to write the Whitehorse city council a letter requesting that your rights be removed at once because of this.
Democracy is two wolves and one lamb voting on what to have for dinner; Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote
BLAM BLAM!! (You didn't see it, but I just shot a hole in my monitor at your posting) Darnafn.,. now i canast aseee what ikma am typinga,;. Okay, got my spare monitor up and running... Here's some advice - instead of translating what people write, try to just read statements without embellishing them for the sake of sensationalism. You will save yourself and other people a lot of confusion I think.
You just proved my previous point about violent projection...keep in mind that you are the only one so far in the discussion to actually discuss unsolicited violent behaviour as a potential recourse to calm debature.
Not that I don't disagree with you here, but I do think that it isn't correct not to have a right to be not unoffended.
Of course you have every right to be offended but that does not mean that other people's rights guaranteed under Section 2 should be suspended. In order to have a right to not be offended then you must completely suspend CC of R and F section 2 a), and 2 b) which is in itself a paradox...because in order to actually not be offended you must first have rights guaranteed under section 2a,b so as to suspend the very same section...basically you would be asking for special treatment instead of equal rights.

"2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:

a) freedom of conscience and religion;
b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;"
Someone - just shoot me and end this please!
More violent fantasies about firearms
I would say that something that might affect the property values in the neighbourhood might be considered negative. If your neighbours decided to paint their houses neon yellow and green, build little piles of rusting car parts on their driveways, and store old broken bicycle frames on their lawn would you be okay with that?
Yes I would be OK with that...my property is mine and their property is theirs.
"Do onto others as you would have them do onto you." Golden Rule
Live and let live
Well that's it for me in this thread. It's been entertaining, but I know better than to argue with people who have already made up their minds.
Thanks for coming DLTSDHYITAOTWO ;)

[kiasu]

I received a Complaint letter from my Neighbors! here's the letter

Hello Neighbors

I am writing to ask you to please make an effort to remove the unsightly pile of gravel that has been on your front driveway for the past year.

Your neighbors for the most part take pride in their yards and in doing so maintain the value of our properties. I hope that you will agree that it would be appropriate to find another place for the gravel.

Regards,

A concerned neighbor

Here's the story,

I ordered 12 yards gravel since last year in July for my garden, and the left over now is about 1 to 2 yards left gravels on my drive way... How much is 1 to 2 yards? It is around 3meters x 3meters x 1 meters high, so it's not much left! However, this is my house , it's not a townhouse, it's not a dulpex! And it is on my Driveway in front of my gargage!, Not on the sidewalk! What'sup with that! I was planning to start working on these gravels before receiving this letter. What can I do now! If I start to work on it, the letter sender might think that the letter works! What can I do?!

A Concerned Owner

here's the pic of the gravel

http://images7.pictiger.com/thumbs/06/8c48784da712406f0116fae73d6e9906.th.jpg (http://server7.pictiger.com/img/223010/picture-hosting/gravel.php)

I have the similar complaint too from Neighbour.. They reported to Municiple of Toronto that grasses are too long and need to be mowed. It's a detached house and it's non of his F business whether when I am going to mow the lawn. Why dont they come over and tell me face2face directly? cause he is chicken? This is not the first time...last time my gf rented a room in a house. One day, the neightbour came over and complaint 'You can put 6 bags of garbages out there...the max is 4" I am like what the F! again...it's non of your F business man...garbage is to throw away...all packed nicely during the garbage collection day.

Geee...not that I discriminate or whatever, I noticed ppl here like to mind other ppl business ....

[Narci]

I have the similar complaint too from Neighbour.. They reported to Municiple of Toronto that grasses are too long and need to be mowed. It's a detached house and it's non of his F business whether when I am going to mow the lawn. Why dont they come over and tell me face2face directly? cause he is chicken? This is not the first time...last time my gf rented a room in a house. One day, the neightbour came over and complaint 'You can put 6 bags of garbages out there...the max is 4" I am like what the F! again...it's non of your F business man...garbage is to throw away...all packed nicely during the garbage collection day.

Geee...not that I discriminate or whatever, I noticed ppl here like to mind other ppl business ....

They have every right to complain about the grass being too long. Every city has by-laws about the appearance of houses from the public street. Go re-read my previous post on bylways on the top of this page.

I know it sucks...some nasty neighbour complained about our other neighbours having too wide of a driveway..the city came and told them to tear up the extended driveways and put grass back.

[Happy13178]

I don't think there's anything wrong with the letter. This world has become quite dangerous lately. It used to be safe to go shopping, but now there are drive-by shootings. It's not an everyday occurrence but neither is having a pile of gravel on your driveway. Calling bylaw is probably the last thing I'd do, but there comes a time when it's necessary. If I was in his position, having people pester me into finishing the job will probably work. Unfortunately, sometimes using a whip is faster than using a carrot. Now, I have to go finish hammering some poles into the ground...

The issue with the letter is that its underhanded. The op probably wouldn't have been half as offended if they came and just asked him about it. If they were really worried he was crazy, they would have either gone straight to the bylaw officer and let them deal with it or ignored it outright. If he was truly as nuts as some people are implying, whats to stop him from going door to door and asking people who sent it? Seems unlikely, but you're comparing a pile of crushed rock to a drive-by, and thats just as crazy. Now this letter has him suspicious of every neighbour on his block, and what kind of atmosphere does that leave? Nobody is arguing that he needs to finish it, including himself as he's stated a couple of times. His issue is the way his neighbours chose to tell him. It wasn't neighbourly in the slightest.

[greydey]

If the gravel has been lying about for an entire year I would think that your neighbor is justified in having said something. After 12 months they only now write you a decent letter making a formalized request? Perhaps the neighbour is shy or awkward. They are certainly patient after waiting an entire year.

If you have not completed whatever task you set out to do 1 year ago, then it's time to discard the gravel. Be a good neighbor, take inventory of your housing projects and set realistic goals for yourself. A pile of dirt laying on your driveway says much about your state of discipline. Please remove it :)

[Becks]

Your neighbours took a civilized way of telling you about their concerns. Remember, we live in a society. You aren't living on an island. Everything you do and don't do affects someone else. Would it be a problem to try and do something about that pile?

My neighbours use manure in their backyard. Their tenants smoke and have a kitchen stove vent on the side of their house that blows out nasty cooking smells. I try to tolerate this by not opening my windows, ever. Yet, I still pick up litter that's in front of their property and do a bit of weeding on their part of the public grassy area by the sidewalk. I guess some people might think I'm weird. I just think people might want to consider how things affect other people in the neighbourhood.

[insanity]

Get rid of it. Your neighbor sent it to you via letter so that they don't jeopordize their relationship with you by confronting you directly. Clean it up man...it must be an eye sore everyday for them to look at it. Yes it's your property but you need to also respect others as well....it's been over a year!

[Peckerwood]

Your neighbours took a civilized way of telling you about their concerns. Remember, we live in a society. You aren't living on an island. Everything you do and don't do affects someone else. Would it be a problem to try and do something about that pile?
How does a pile of gravel and/or long grass negatively impact others beyond their inability to control their bodily functions such as eye movement?

How does a pile of gravel and/or long grass negatively impact "society"?

To be honestly clear, Society is not a cause of individuals...it is the other way around...society is a result of individuals in their day to day routines.
My neighbours use manure in their backyard. Their tenants smoke and have a kitchen stove vent on the side of their house that blows out nasty cooking smells. I try to tolerate this by not opening my windows, ever. Yet, I still pick up litter that's in front of their property and do a bit of weeding on their part of the public grassy area by the sidewalk. I guess some people might think I'm weird. I just think people might want to consider how things affect other people in the neighbourhood.
If it affects you directly then you have a say in it IMHO
Get rid of it. Your neighbor sent it to you via letter so that they don't jeopordize their relationship with you by confronting you directly. Clean it up man...it must be an eye sore everyday for them to look at it. Yes it's your property but you need to also respect others as well....it's been over a year!
An anonymous letter...think about this one carefully.

I don't know about you, but I don't believe that healthy relationships are based primarily upon deceit and a direct need to influence neighbours through the threat of force or negative sanctions. And force/negative sanctions can be mandated through bylaws and city enforcement etc. One has to ask why though.

If the landowner refused to clean it up what would be the next course of action? If the city came along and cleaned it up and then sent a bill to the property owner, then what would happen to the owner if he/she refused to pay it...not to mention the theft of the gravel by the city? Would the city simply ignore it and not use force? Would they refuse to use the city police force to enforce their regulations against the landowner?

Keep in mind that such uses of force can be used for nothing more than long grass and small piles of gravel. Is this a sign of healthy relationships?

[ratface]

How does a pile of gravel and/or long grass negatively impact others beyond their inability to control their bodily functions such as eye movement?


You seem to be trying really hard to miss the point in order to continue this 'discussion'.

People like to look at nice things. They don't like to look at ugly things. The neighbour explained this very clearly in the letter in post #1.

As an artist you can't claim to not understand this concept.

[almostfreeman]

You seem to be trying really hard to miss the point in order to continue this 'discussion'.

People like to look at nice things. They don't like to look at ugly things. The neighbour explained this very clearly in the letter in post #1.

As an artist you can't claim to not understand this concept.

People just can't appreciate great conceptual pieces. :|

[Peckerwood]

You seem to be trying really hard to miss the point in order to continue this 'discussion'.

People like to look at nice things. They don't like to look at ugly things. The neighbour explained this very clearly in the letter in post #1.
I haven't missed anything...the neighbour does not have the right to mold other people's existances or property to suit his/her desire to see things a specific way.

Such an outcome is symbolic of dictatorship...whether by singular rule of a tyrant or by Oligarchy or by mob rule the result is still the same. Freedom coupled with experience is the only way to discover the Truth; and there can be no freedom without the freedom to err. Forcing others to follow a regimented outcome denies their right to err and thusly discover on their own terms.
As an artist you can't claim to not understand this concept.
In this statement you thusly have revealed that you know nothing about art...art isn't about beauty...or a set of preordained scribbles on paper...Art is about expression and one of those expressions is passion.

As an artist I have learned that perspective is greatly dependant upon personal experience and less upon a desire for everything to be the same. Forcing everyone to be the same makes the suggestion that all experiences are identical and that all people therefore must also be identical...to which expression itself must therefore be moot because all things have already been said or thought of.

This type of backwards logic stifles free thought and thusly free expression...which in turn becomes a paradox in itself because how can someone have an opinion on the matter without the free will to have thought about it in the first place and thusly express it to others.

[Starkicker]

I haven't missed anything...the neighbour does not have the right to mold other people's existances or property to suit his/her desire to see things a specific way.

Such an outcome is symbolic of dictatorship...whether by singular rule of a tyrant or by Oligarchy or by mob rule the result is still the same. Freedom coupled with experience is the only way to discover the Truth; and there can be no freedom without the freedom to err. Forcing others to follow a regimented outcome denies their right to err and thusly discover on their own terms.

In this statement you thusly have revealed that you know nothing about art...art isn't about beauty...or a set of preordained scribbles on paper...Art is about expression and one of those expressions is passion.

As an artist I have learned that perspective is greatly dependant upon personal experience and less upon a desire for everything to be the same. Forcing everyone to be the same makes the suggestion that all experiences are identical and that all people therefore must also be identical...to which expression itself must therefore be moot because all things have already been said or thought of.

This type of backwards logic stifles free thought and thusly free expression...which in turn becomes a paradox in itself because how can someone have an opinion on the matter without the free will to have thought about it in the first place and thusly express it to others.


Very well written! I didn't read the thread, I clicked on the link by mistake and ended up reading your post. I have no clue what's going on in the thread, but you're very well spoken.

[kiasu]

I strongly agree with Peckerwood!!!
However, this is my point...I can do whatever **** I want within my compound which I paid for it with my money as long as there's no health threaten towards neighbours.

[masterhapposai]

they can have their letters, but they will never have your gravel!

freedom!

[stevethewheel]

I haven't missed anything...the neighbour does not have the right to mold other people's existances or property to suit his/her desire to see things a specific way.

...etc well written etc....



Your post is well written, forgive me for shortening it for the sake of screen space.

The neighbour is asking (even uses the word ask). The neighbour says please, the neighbour is pleading (not threatening or demanding). The neighbour 'hopes' that the OP sees things the same way.

I cannot see this as a threat to freedom or the start of dictatorship, which is where your eloquent post takes footing.

How do you get such a threat from that letter? Seriously, dissect the letter and relate your points to if possible.

[slothy@cutey]

There's a lot of verbal diarrhaea going on in this thread... a lot of it is off-topic with references to basic tenets of Liberty, comparisons to slavery, communism, etc. along with ridiculous philosophical ramblings that have nothing to do with the practical reality of having an unsightly pile of rubble on a driveway. The connections are so contrived and belaboured, one suspects someone is cramming for their grad school finals...

Don't be fooled by perceived eloquence of certain posters. As George Orwell said, [paraphrased], "no point in using a $10 word, when a 10 cent word will do"... In that spirit, it's easiest to find that the simplest arguments are the most compelling (ie. clean up the mess!)

I mean, listening to some philosophy grad student theorize how Locke's fundamental notion of liberty is being corrupted becase some poor neighbour nervously waited a year to send a letter to tell a neighbour to clean up his mess.... Gimme a break. As the other poster stated, stop hijacking the thread into a theoretical discussion of competing Englightenment thinkers' views and look at the facts. You're entitled to your own opinion... but I think more than one of us on this thread are getting tired of the professor's lectures.

My last [innocent] post was reported and deleted by the mods (that seems to curtail MY right to liberty in expressing my views and opinions... what would John Locke think of THAT? But I won't accuse anyone of hypocrisy without supporting evidence). :rolleyes:

[Peckerwood]

Your post is well written, forgive me for shortening it for the sake of screen space.

The neighbour is asking (even uses the word ask). The neighbour says please, the neighbour is pleading (not threatening or demanding). The neighbour 'hopes' that the OP sees things the same way.

I cannot see this as a threat to freedom or the start of dictatorship, which is where your eloquent post takes footing.

How do you get such a threat from that letter? Seriously, dissect the letter and relate your points to if possible.
Simply because the laws are already on the books that allow force to be used and the neighbours have the legal recourse to follow through with those laws through authority measures by means of governing bodies...the threat exists whether or not it was implied or written in the letter.

If the legal recourse of force did not exist then it wouldnt matter what was in the letter in any way regardless. The issue here is that the neighbour feels it nessecary to remind another neighbour that he/she wants that person to mold their property to their liking.

The property owner should only mold his/her property when and if the owner wants to...not for any other reason except if decisions made by the owner negatively impact other neighbours.
There's a lot of verbal diarrhaea going on in this thread... a lot of it is off-topic with references to basic tenets of Liberty, comparisons to slavery, communism, etc. along with ridiculous philosophical ramblings that have nothing to do with the practical reality of having an unsightly pile of rubble on a driveway. The connections are so contrived and belaboured, one suspects someone is cramming for their grad school finals...
There is nothing off topic about the present discussion...should the OP bend to the wills of their neighbours over an issue that is outside of the OP's control in the first place...eye movement

All of the systems present find themselves tested in the smallest of engagements. Such a pile of gravel in turn tests the neighbour's resolve in learning to ignore things that are outside of their sphere of influence. The simple fact here is that you feel one person should bend to another's request simply because that person cannot control their own bodily functions.

The best recourse for that person is to learn to deal with it and in turn to avert their eyes if they don't like it. Nobody is forcing them to look right at the pile of gravel.

What this whole thread actually comes down to is the nature of private property...does the OP have the right to be secure in his/her property or not? Is the gravel not also privately owned by the landowner? Why should anyone else have a right to tell someone what to do with their property on their time and money, if it doesnt harm them?

These are simple yet fundamental questions that you consider "verbal diarrhea".

The other systems available such as Communism, Socialism, and Fascism would agree with you...that the rest of the neighbourhood should have a say in what one person does with their own time...and in case you haven't yet figured it out...when a group of people forcibly instruct someone to do something without their input...they call that slavery.

Hence mob rule by the neighbourhood is also another form of slavery.
Don't be fooled by perceived eloquence of certain posters. As George Orwell said, [paraphrased], "no point in using a $10 word, when a 10 cent word will do"... In that spirit, it's easiest to find that the simplest arguments are the most compelling (ie. clean up the mess!)
Simple?

Clean up the mess = 14 letters

No = 2 letters
I mean, listening to some philosophy grad student theorize how Locke's fundamental notion of liberty is being corrupted becase some poor neighbour nervously waited a year to send a letter to tell a neighbour to clean up his mess.... Gimme a break. As the other poster stated, stop hijacking the thread into a theoretical discussion of competing Englightenment thinkers' views and look at the facts. You're entitled to your own opinion... but I think more than one of us on this thread are getting tired of the professor's lectures.
Nobody forced you to click on the link and read the pages in this thread...that somehow every link you click must conform to your liking is symbolic of your own dictatorial rhetoric. And if that doesnt work you feel that those posting in the link should stop posting their opinions simply because you can't handle them.

I am noticing a pattern here.
My last [innocent] post was reported and deleted by the mods (that seems to curtail MY right to liberty in expressing my views and opinions... what would John Locke think of THAT? But I won't accuse anyone of hypocrisy without supporting evidence). :rolleyes:
It is a PRIVATE webforum...not a public space...the OWNERS of this forum have every right to clip and cut posts where ever they like...you and I are but guests here...nothing more.

[UrbanPoet]

this reminds me...
a building in my area got a letter from the city telling them "remove the graffiti from the side of your building or else we'll do it for you and charge you."

Kinda sad how someone vandalized their building and they have to pay to remove it b/c of a by-law...

[Happy13178]

Get rid of it. Your neighbor sent it to you via letter so that they don't jeopordize their relationship with you by confronting you directly. Clean it up man...it must be an eye sore everyday for them to look at it. Yes it's your property but you need to also respect others as well....it's been over a year!

What kind of relationship would they have had, if they're sending anonymous notes?

[antime1]

staple the letter to the telephone pole closest to your house after sealing it in plastic (so rain wont damage it). leave it for all to see.

[summerfan]

staple the letter to the telephone pole closest to your house after sealing it in plastic (so rain wont damage it). leave it for all to see.

That more then likely will backfire and makes things worse.It is very possible the letter is from most people on that street.

[Happy13178]

That more then likely will backfire and makes things worse.It is very possible the letter is from most people on that street.

Given the fact that this neighbour sent the letter unsigned, most likely because he didn't know the op, I doubt there's much camaradrie on the street....I think its from one neighbour. Not to say that there aren't others irritated by it, just that I really doubt they conspired to write a letter like this. Even if they were scared of the op, there's strength in numbers, and if a few people were bothered by it, they'd all go and tell him.

[almostfreeman]

This pile of gravel must have some sort of magnetic attraction that makes people unable to avert their gaze somewhere else. Unless you came very close to it it shouldn't occupy more than say 3%-4% of your field of vision.

[slothy@cutey]

What this whole thread actually comes down to is the nature of private property...does the OP have the right to be secure in his/her property or not? Is the gravel not also privately owned by the landowner? Why should anyone else have a right to tell someone what to do with their property on their time and money, if it doesnt harm them?

No, that's not what the thread comes down to. It seems you haven't been paying attention. By-laws are the final say here and their interpretation, unless of course you aim to challenge those to a higher civil authority. If there are no by-laws that can be enforced with respect to the gravel pile, then it comes down to simple courtesy. It's outrageous that you suggest a person does not hae a "right" to tell someone what to do "with their porperty on their time and money"... The neighbour DOES have a write to make a request and reasonable grounds through a letter to the OP. Whether OP takes action or not is his problem/issue, but your whole argument is undermined by suggesting a neighbour can't communicate a concern to another neighbour. We ARE living in a society as another poster eloquently put it. Population dispersion may be quite different in Northern Canada, but down along the 49th we're quite close to our neighbours and we respect the fact that we live in a community of individuals and thus have a moral responsibility to the "common good" - even if that includes private property in public view... to suggest otherwise would be advocating a system of anarchy. You've made claims all over the place including the comparitive suggestion to art. Well, if a pile of gravel is not ugly as you claim, since it depends entirely on the perspective of the viewer, then would you have no argument if I emptied a septic tank on my driveway? (of course taking pains to ensure it doesn't run off into the sewers... just sitting in a turtle kid's pool on the driveway... afterall it's MY private property). Or are "smells" more objectionable that "looks"? Your argument(s) are filled with fundamental flaws. Even if you could prove that it's OP's private property, and he has a fundamental, inalienable right to having an ugly pile of gravel on his driveway.. so what? He can sit comfortably in his home knowing he has won the battle of the "rights"... does that make for a better society in your vision? I have a right not to open the door for someone carrying large grocery bags. I'll execute my right and let the lady/man struggle with their groceries... what a great vision of Utopia that is! Let's all just not bother to respond to neighbourly concerns and live for ourselves. Why do we need public transportation - I insist on a single right on a subway all by myself... why have hospitals? Oh but those are public places? Okay, if I have a heart attack and collapse on my front porch, make sure no neighbour trespasses to save me, because it's MY private property...



... that somehow every link you click must conform to your liking is symbolic of your own dictatorial rhetoric.

I am noticing a pattern here..

Um.. okay.. so now we're going Freudian... or Nietzsche-ian... My posts are symbolic of "dictatorial rhetoric".. uh-huh... You seem to have so many talents... can you use a shovel too? I think OP could use your help.. that is... if you're interested in doing the neighbourly thing.


... It is a PRIVATE webforum...not a public space...the OWNERS of this forum have every right to clip and cut posts where ever they like...you and I are but guests here...nothing more.

Now that IS interesting. Is this web f-o-r-u-m a "private" or a "public" space. Hmm.. well, I'm free to post whatever I want so long as I abide by specific rules and more arbitrary rules of descency.... But if I stand on a milk crate in dowtown Toronto and start a discussion with passer-bys... am I in a "private" or "public" space? Canada has federal laws, then there's provincial ordinances, and then municipal by-laws... and perhaps also arbitrary rules of descency... I'm afraid I don't see the difference... But I'm sure Voltaire or someone else will find their way in your next post to tell me that my right to suggest this ends where your eyes begin to read this post...

[Peckerwood]

No, that's not what the thread comes down to. It seems you haven't been paying attention. By-laws are the final say here and their interpretation, unless of course you aim to challenge those to a higher civil authority. If there are no by-laws that can be enforced with respect to the gravel pile, then it comes down to simple courtesy.
You just proved my point about the use of arbitrary force. Funny it took you this long to see it
It's outrageous that you suggest a person does not hae a "right" to tell someone what to do "with their porperty on their time and money"... The neighbour DOES have a write to make a request and reasonable grounds through a letter to the OP.
Making a request and telling someone what to do with their property are two different things...one is a question and the other is an order.
Whether OP takes action or not is his problem/issue, but your whole argument is undermined by suggesting a neighbour can't communicate a concern to another neighbour.
As I said...since the threat of arbitrary force exists as an alternative to refusal by the property owner to comply, then the communication itself has authority...since that is where it first derives it ascension.

Nobody is suggesting though that communication is the abhorrency...it is the arbitrary use of force to make others conform to vanity laws that are the abhorrence.
We ARE living in a society as another poster eloquently put it. Population dispersion may be quite different in Northern Canada,
I grew up and lived in Edmonton long before I moved up here...I also spent numerous years living in the Western US(Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, California(SoCal mostly)) I know what living in a big city entails...however if you feel the only method of debature lies specifically in pointing out present residence of an alternate poster rather than the experiences that poster might hold, then by all means continue to make a fool of yourself.
we live in a community of individuals and thus have a moral responsibility to the "common good" - even if that includes private property in public view
More communist drivel...the common good denies the individual...it does not support it. In order to have a legislature bend to the "common good" you must accept that "the whole" is greater than the individual...to which the individual loses his/her autonomic sovereignty and thusly ceases being a power holder.

Therefore the Common Good destroys the Individual's tangibility...the only way to do this is to eliminate rights and curtail freedoms that would directly oppose the Central Authority of the State.
to suggest otherwise would be advocating a system of anarchy.
Anarchism has numerous foundings and many writers...anyone in particular that you would choose to attack first?

Perhaps we can toy with the Anarchists that call themselves Libertarian Communists(aka "The Black Block")...those that believe that it is possible to have freedom but not property rights...to which the greater good is placed in common share for each individual by means of property shares rather than individual property holdings.

If I am not mistaken that describes your previous "verbal diarrhea" to a T

Or maybe we can bother to look at the Anarchists called Libertarian Socialists who believe that each company holding is owned by the workers that reside within it's factory walls...profit sharing without a boss. Property is privately owned only by those that worked to achieve it's amassment.

You could also play around with some of the lesser works of Erricco Malatesta (of whom I paraphrased in a previous post but you didnt see or read)...we could mess around with his musings that "it is necessary to provide all with the means of life and for development, and it is therefore necessary to destroy with violence, since one cannot do otherwise, the violence which denies these means to the workers."

You see...Anarchists are just more Communists and Socialists in sheep's clothing...in the end they become Authoritarian Communists just the same.
You've made claims all over the place including the comparitive suggestion to art.
There was no comparitive suggestion to art...just a definition of art
then would you have no argument if I emptied a septic tank on my driveway?
The difference again being that the septic sewage is a biohazard whereas dirt is not...keep up with the sensationalism...it becomes you.

He can sit comfortably in his home knowing he has won the battle of the "rights"... does that make for a better society in your vision?
Yes.
I have a right not to open the door for someone carrying large grocery bags. I'll execute my right and let the lady/man struggle with their groceries... what a great vision of Utopia that is! Let's all just not bother to respond to neighbourly concerns and live for ourselves.
Now you are getting carried away yet again...the difference is in free choice versus legal mandate. (This is also your way of trying to make Libertarians out to be callous upstarts)

If I open a door for someone else, I do so out of the kindness of my own heart and a desire to facilitate my humanity...NOT BECAUSE I WAS MANDATED BY ANY LAW TO DO SO. I do not live my life edict to edict...you seem to think that the only right in this world is by a composite of legislation or by unfailing officialism. Just because something is made into law does not make it right.
Why do we need public transportation - I insist on a single right on a subway all by myself... why have hospitals? Oh but those are public places?
If a group of people decide of their own free will to put monies together for such a venture then they are more than willing to reap the benefits of their actions...but your words instead suggest special priveledge outside of actually having a contribution to the projects.

If you didn't pay into the Canadian Health Care system then do you think you will get free service and care...wrong...you will get a bill for services rendered. Because the services had to be paid for by someone because someone did the labour for that specific job. A hospital isn't a public space...it is a private business paid for by public coffers with special priveledge given to those that put money into it so as to benefit from it...you still have to submit your health insurance or health care card to get services.

Doctors and nurses do get paychecks...equipment is built in factories and laboratories. Someone put time and effort into it and they still get paid for it.

You don't seem to understand the nature behind Libertarianism at all...it isn't a free for all...it isn't about getting stuff for no input given.
Okay, if I have a heart attack and collapse on my front porch, make sure no neighbour trespasses to save me, because it's MY private property...
That should also be your right...if you don't want to be taken to a hospital then you dont have to. If you want to be left alone then you should have every right to do so.
You seem to have so many talents... can you use a shovel too? I think OP could use your help.. that is... if you're interested in doing the neighbourly thing.
It is not my property...therefore not my responsibility...nor is it my mandate
Now that IS interesting. Is this web f-o-r-u-m a "private" or a "public" space. Hmm.. well, I'm free to post whatever I want so long as I abide by specific rules and more arbitrary rules of descency.... But if I stand on a milk crate in dowtown Toronto and start a discussion with passer-bys... am I in a "private" or "public" space? Canada has federal laws, then there's provincial ordinances, and then municipal by-laws... and perhaps also arbitrary rules of descency... I'm afraid I don't see the difference...
The difference is simple really...you purchased time and space through an internet provider...then afterwards asked for permission to connect to RFD's privately owned server as a forum member through registration...they then issued you a private access and certain priveledges so long as you follow the rules to their privately owned webforum. They also have the private right to choose who they let stay in their forum and who they don't...who they allow to retain the priveledges of posting and who they won't.

If I come into your home, the same is true...you own the home and have every natural right to boot me out flat on my ass. I dont have the right to tell you to leave your own home.

In a public space the difference is that it is neutral ground to which neither of us have the right to tell the other to leave, or to shut up, or to change beliefs, or to command obedience etc. And while I may personally think that someone is an idiot...I will still defend to the death their right to continue to be one as well as stand on their soapbox and profess to their own brand of lunacy.

The difference is that I have the capability of ignoring their words if I so choose...that is personal will.

I choose
But I'm sure Voltaire or someone else will find their way in your next post to tell me that my right to suggest this ends where your eyes begin to read this post...
Pretty much...the point being that you have every right to say what you want...in your home...or in a public space.

But in a private space, that right is retained by the property owner...just the same way you would have the right in your own property

[stevethewheel]

Making a request and telling someone what to do with their property are two different things...one is a question and the other is an order.

As I said...since the threat of arbitrary force exists as an alternative to refusal by the property owner to comply, then the communication itself has authority...since that is where it first derives it ascension.

Nobody is suggesting though that communication is the abhorrency...it is the arbitrary use of force to make others conform to vanity laws that are the abhorrence.



So really your issue is the bylaw. Not the letter or the neighbour. Your issue would exist even without the pile of gravel.

Net this thread is your soapbox.

Got it. Thanks.

[jcoltage]

I would be like are you complaining about my anti Pairs Hilton device ... I would get a second pile of grave... make it more uniform ..:D

http://www.car-accidents.com/2006-Auto-pics/2-13-06.jpg

or

Buy a pack of 6 beers and get some homeless or mexican people to move it for you worst case :D Spoff up the street with some new faces

[YnD]

Let me walk my dogs so they can do their business in that pile of dirty... that would impress your neighbours :)

[slothy@cutey]

You just proved my point about the use of arbitrary force. Funny it took you this long to see it

Making a request and telling someone what to do with their property are two different things...one is a question and the other is an order.

As I said...since the threat of arbitrary force exists as an alternative to refusal by the property owner to comply, then the communication itself has authority...since that is where it first derives it ascension.

Nobody is suggesting though that communication is the abhorrency...it is the arbitrary use of force to make others conform to vanity laws that are the abhorrence.

I grew up and lived in Edmonton long before I moved up here...I also spent numerous years living in the Western US(Wyoming, Idaho, Montana, Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, California(SoCal mostly)) I know what living in a big city entails...however if you feel the only method of debature lies specifically in pointing out present residence of an alternate poster rather than the experiences that poster might hold, then by all means continue to make a fool of yourself.

More communist drivel...the common good denies the individual...it does not support it. In order to have a legislature bend to the "common good" you must accept that "the whole" is greater than the individual...to which the individual loses his/her autonomic sovereignty and thusly ceases being a power holder.

Therefore the Common Good destroys the Individual's tangibility...the only way to do this is to eliminate rights and curtail freedoms that would directly oppose the Central Authority of the State.

Anarchism has numerous foundings and many writers...anyone in particular that you would choose to attack first?

Perhaps we can toy with the Anarchists that call themselves Libertarian Communists(aka "The Black Block")...those that believe that it is possible to have freedom but not property rights...to which the greater good is placed in common share for each individual by means of property shares rather than individual property holdings.

If I am not mistaken that describes your previous "verbal diarrhea" to a T

Or maybe we can bother to look at the Anarchists called Libertarian Socialists who believe that each company holding is owned by the workers that reside within it's factory walls...profit sharing without a boss. Property is privately owned only by those that worked to achieve it's amassment.

You could also play around with some of the lesser works of Erricco Malatesta (of whom I paraphrased in a previous post but you didnt see or read)...we could mess around with his musings that "it is necessary to provide all with the means of life and for development, and it is therefore necessary to destroy with violence, since one cannot do otherwise, the violence which denies these means to the workers."

You see...Anarchists are just more Communists and Socialists in sheep's clothing...in the end they become Authoritarian Communists just the same.

There was no comparitive suggestion to art...just a definition of art

The difference again being that the septic sewage is a biohazard whereas dirt is not...keep up with the sensationalism...it becomes you.


Yes.

Now you are getting carried away yet again...the difference is in free choice versus legal mandate. (This is also your way of trying to make Libertarians out to be callous upstarts)

If I open a door for someone else, I do so out of the kindness of my own heart and a desire to facilitate my humanity...NOT BECAUSE I WAS MANDATED BY ANY LAW TO DO SO. I do not live my life edict to edict...you seem to think that the only right in this world is by a composite of legislation or by unfailing officialism. Just because something is made into law does not make it right.

If a group of people decide of their own free will to put monies together for such a venture then they are more than willing to reap the benefits of their actions...but your words instead suggest special priveledge outside of actually having a contribution to the projects.

If you didn't pay into the Canadian Health Care system then do you think you will get free service and care...wrong...you will get a bill for services rendered. Because the services had to be paid for by someone because someone did the labour for that specific job. A hospital isn't a public space...it is a private business paid for by public coffers with special priveledge given to those that put money into it so as to benefit from it...you still have to submit your health insurance or health care card to get services.

Doctors and nurses do get paychecks...equipment is built in factories and laboratories. Someone put time and effort into it and they still get paid for it.

You don't seem to understand the nature behind Libertarianism at all...it isn't a free for all...it isn't about getting stuff for no input given.

That should also be your right...if you don't want to be taken to a hospital then you dont have to. If you want to be left alone then you should have every right to do so.

It is not my property...therefore not my responsibility...nor is it my mandate

The difference is simple really...you purchased time and space through an internet provider...then afterwards asked for permission to connect to RFD's privately owned server as a forum member through registration...they then issued you a private access and certain priveledges so long as you follow the rules to their privately owned webforum. They also have the private right to choose who they let stay in their forum and who they don't...who they allow to retain the priveledges of posting and who they won't.

If I come into your home, the same is true...you own the home and have every natural right to boot me out flat on my ass. I dont have the right to tell you to leave your own home.

In a public space the difference is that it is neutral ground to which neither of us have the right to tell the other to leave, or to shut up, or to change beliefs, or to command obedience etc. And while I may personally think that someone is an idiot...I will still defend to the death their right to continue to be one as well as stand on their soapbox and profess to their own brand of lunacy.

The difference is that I have the capability of ignoring their words if I so choose...that is personal will.

I choose

Pretty much...the point being that you have every right to say what you want...in your home...or in a public space.

But in a private space, that right is retained by the property owner...just the same way you would have the right in your own property

I'm thankful we live in a country that doesn't seem to share your particular points of view. We certainly have a friendlier community as a result. You can call me a fool, a communist, a dictator (ha!)... whatever makes you feel comfortable name-dropping and spouting your philosophical drivel. But thank the powers that be that you're in the minority and most people here suggest what is painfully obvious - OP should clean up the damn mess. Or are we all fools then, or dictatators, or communists... or stewards of slavery ...

The last word to you, Professor?

[Devious]

This quote is pure genius -- I was thinking the same thing. I fall into category 2 and for christ sake, clean up your ****.

It looks like most of the responses come from 2 groups of people.
1. People who live in their mom's basement.
2. Homeowners.

I think most homeowners agree that moving the gravel is the best thing to do while non-homeowners will tell you to "F them, do nothing". Once you've actually purchased something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, you'll be much more protective than just having use of something worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. What happened to just being nice for the sake of it? Some people just seem so juvenile in a "I'm right and you're wrong" type of mentality.