33 dead In the deadliest shooting incident in U.S. history

[SergesPlace]

http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/9017/candleqa5.gifhttp://img410.imageshack.us/img410/1757/n48919948343577116518et0.jpg
http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/331/victimsedited1kq4.png

[SergesPlace]

NBC News is reporting at least 22 dead and 28 wounded

[nsx]

NBC News is reporting at least 22 dead and 28 wounded

Yup! 22 is the latest number I heard on AM640 a few mins ago... >:(


http://www.thestar.com/News/article/203549

[amph1bius]

whoa...

[perplexed_one]

whoa they havent got the gunman yet. this is absolutely unacceptable, if ppl got problems, they should take it upon selves not others.

[spm24]

wow 4 days from the anniver of Columbine .

[UrbanPoet]

i hope swat teams or police take out that mofo.

[malaco0219]

Yup! 22 is the latest number I heard on AM640 a few mins ago... >:(


http://www.thestar.com/News/article/203549

I swear, that picture looks SOO much like my school. :lol: I was like.. isn't that my school?

Anyway, people were locked up in their res.. the Residence Assistant must had the guts to run around and lock everyone's doors.

[manixc]

not again. >:(

[gordholio]

I've read and heard that these school shootings may be due to mind control. I don't know if that's true, but the whole situation regarding school shootings is very sad indeed. :cry:
School shootings have been happening a lot in the past 5 years or so. Makes you wonder what's causing it (other than just someone who wants to kill people).

[Acuratl]

I swear, that picture looks SOO much like my school. :lol: I was like.. isn't that my school?

Anyway, people were locked up in their res.. the Residence Assistant must had the guts to run around and lock everyone's doors.

22 people die and you have a smilie? :|

[dx1997]

ABC News is reporting that the total is now up to 25 casualities.

Sad, definiately. What a horrible tragedy.

[ggs]

tragedy. thoughts and prayers go out.

[Tha_Doggg]

Oh boy I just heard about this on the news and I couldn't believe it. :mad:

[goob3r]

I wonder who's to blame this time? Video games, TV, movies? A finger will be laid on a scapegoat for sure.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Sad.

What's your take on all those students who posted videos/pictures/blogs on the Internet? I think it's unnecessary. Sometimes too much information is a bad thing, especially if it's contradictory.

I was reading one forum where a student posted from his computer lab. A lot of people called him a liar, made jokes, etc. Hard to take people seriously anymore. >:(

[dx1997]

Sad.

What's your take on all those students who posted videos/pictures/blogs on the Internet? I think it's unnecessary. Sometimes too much information is a bad thing, especially if it's contradictory.

I was reading one forum where a student posted from his computer lab. A lot of people called him a liar, made jokes, etc. Hard to take people seriously anymore. >:(

Care to reiterate on this posting from the lab? What does this mean? Did he post he was going to carry out this shooting? Did he foreshadow it? And geez, imagine if facebook was one of the causes for this? Maybe he was cyber bullied? Yikes.

[Menace]

Damn you Osama!

Very sad :(

I wonder who's to blame this time? Video games, TV, movies? A finger will be laid on a scapegoat for sure.

[spm24]

Sad.

What's your take on all those students who posted videos/pictures/blogs on the Internet? I think it's unnecessary. Sometimes too much information is a bad thing, especially if it's contradictory.

I was reading one forum where a student posted from his computer lab. A lot of people called him a liar, made jokes, etc. Hard to take people seriously anymore. >:(

i think the poster ment that the student was in the school at the time and posted it on a blog of what was happending.


i would suggest stop posting the estimate number of people dead till they give a offical number. i remember when 9/11 happened and they said over 10k people died and it went down quickly.

[dazz]

why the hell would anyone shoot those poor students??!!
Wanna shoot someone,go shoot some goverment crooks(not that it's good),but geez,don't fu<kin' shoot those kids!!!

[ElChico]

50 Casualties according to CBS...Very sad. :(

[BadDrafter]

Makes you wonder what's causing it (other than just someone who wants to kill people).

Copy cat killings, if Columbine never happened then allot of these types of deaths would have been simple suicides.

[Talamasca]

I just heard about this in the car. Just horrible. My thoughts go out to everyone involved.

I read that some students in a writing class during lockdown posted their thoughts online via their laptops.

My question is how the shooting times were two hours apart. What were the police doing during those two hours?

[gordholio]

I wonder who's to blame this time? Video games, TV, movies? A finger will be laid on a scapegoat for sure.

Violence begets violence. We live in a society where violence on TV, movies and games is treated lightly and treated as entertainment by many people.
I'm not saying it's the cause, but it's a symptom of a numbing of society towards violence in general.
My prayers go out to the victims of this tragedy.

[jerryhung]

They still think allowing guns in US is a good idea?

A determined a person can probably still get gun in Canada, but not any random out-of-mind psycho who just walk into a school and kill 20+ people

VERY SAD...

[BadDrafter]

They still think allowing guns in US is a good idea?

A determined a person can probably still get gun in Canada, but not any random out-of-mind psycho who just walk into a school and kill 20+ people

VERY SAD...

http://imatt.us/mt/archives/orly.JPG

DID YOU FORGET LAST YEAR!?

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060913/montreal_shooting_060913/20060913?hub=TopStories

[gordholio]

Copy cat killings, if Columbine never happened then allot of these types of deaths would have been simple suicides.

I agree to an certain extent. Once the precedent is set, it seems to open the door to more and more similar violence.

[malaco0219]

They still think allowing guns in US is a good idea?

A determined a person can probably still get gun in Canada, but not any random out-of-mind psycho who just walk into a school and kill 20+ people

VERY SAD...

I don't understand either why the US is so relaxed on gun legislation..

[Talamasca]

Violence begets violence. We live in a society where violence on TV, movies and games is treated lightly and treated as entertainment by many people.
I'm not saying it's the cause, but it's a symptom of a numbing of society towards violence in general.

Violence has always been a part of human civilization and I wouldn't say that we're more numb to it than in the past. Remember that 2000 years ago, people regularly fought to the death to amuse the public. I'll take boxing and wrestling over that.

[hover42]

Violence begets violence. We live in a society where violence on TV, movies and games is treated lightly and treated as entertainment by many people.
I'm not saying it's the cause, but it's a symptom of a numbing of society towards violence in general.

I have to agree. Violence in the media desensitizes people to it. Those with mental problems are more susceptible to it, and start daydreaming about what they would do to get even. Then, their mind goes back to what they saw on TV or in the movie.

I just watched the movie "The Departed" last night and was bothered by the very realistic gunshots to the head administered at several points in the movie. Part of what we are as a society is great, part is very sick, and we're not getting better. This desensitization to violence we are going through is nothing new, is well documented, and no politician has enough guts to legislate against it.

[gordholio]

I don't understand either why the US is so relaxed on gun legislation..

It's in their constitution - people have the right to bear arms.
It's not the guns that are the problem, it's the minority that misuse them.
I'm fine with someone having a gun to protect their property.

[BadDrafter]

I don't understand either why the US is so relaxed on gun legislation..

The same thing happened in Canada Just... Last Year!

[gordholio]

I have to agree. Violence in the media desensitizes people to it. Those with mental problems are more susceptible to it, and start daydreaming about what they would do to get even. Then, their mind goes back to what they saw on TV or in the movie.

I just watched the movie "The Departed" last night and was bothered by the very realistic gunshots to the head administered at several points in the movie. Part of what we are as a society is great, part is very sick, and we're not getting better. This desensitization to violence we are going through is nothing new, is well documented, and no politician has enough guts to legislate against it.

I haven't seem "The Departed", but I have seen "The Hills Have Eyes" and it showed a guy putting a gun under his chin and shooting himself.
See enough of those images and you get pretty desensitized in my opinion.
People who are open to this sort of suggestion could be influenced to do something similar. Most people are not, but it still has an effect on how we react to violence in my opinion.

[MizTEcK]

k so how many are dead anyway, there's a friggin huge gap between 22 and 32 u know... :confused:

[UrbanPoet]

ahh... the whole gun control debate.
Look @ how well the Drug Ban has done.
or look @ the gun ban in Jamaica where theres 300 murders per 100,000 people... Its also a tiny little island thats not anywhere near a gun producing country.

[gordholio]

k so how many are dead anyway, there's a friggin huge gap between 22 and 32 u know... :confused:

Twenty two is too many as it is.

[MizTEcK]

ahh... the whole gun control debate.
Look @ how well the Drug Ban has done.
or look @ the gun ban in Jamaica where theres 300 murders per 100,000 people... Its also a tiny little island thats not anywhere near a gun producing country.

gun debate is stupid right now until we figure out whether those guns were illegal/stole or w/e

[dx1997]

It's up to 31 now according to federal authorities.

[malaco0219]

The same thing happened in Canada Just... Last Year!

I agree there are shootings in Canada as well, but not as major as the US, and the US seem to have way more shootings than we do.

It's impossible to prevent these things to happen, and especially with the huge population the US has a much harder time than we do.

[spm24]

There is still no offical numbers Every news outlet says Over 22 people have died with alot of people injured still.

from reading cnn,foxnews and other news outlets i am surprized they know the gunman is dead but not what weapon he used. acording to witnesses he had multiple clips on him and shot more then enough rounds.

[BadDrafter]

I agree there are shootings in Canada as well, but not as major as the US, and the US seem to have way more shootings than we do.

How many people live in Canada?

How many people live in the United States?

The point is we have shootings too. Canada is not a nation full of saints but a nation full of people. People like to kill other people and if Columbine never happened then these kind of things would have never happened either.

[SergesPlace]

How many people live in Canada?

How many people live in the United States?

The point is we have shootings too. Canada is not a nation full of saints but a nation full of people. People like to kill other people and if Columbine never happened then these kind of things would have never happened either.

there was campus shooting long before you ever heard of Columbine

[sfu_lifer]

I blame videogames ;) ...

[UrbanPoet]

I agree there are shootings in Canada as well, but not as major as the US, and the US seem to have way more shootings than we do.

It's impossible to prevent these things to happen, and especially with the huge population the US has a much harder time than we do.

YEp... theres hardly any shootings in Canada. Yes it happens... but safety in Canada is top notch.
but guess what?
for every 3 households there is 1 gun.
Theres 20 million guns in Canada. almost 1 gun for every person.

Blame the disparity and gap between RICH and POOR for all the gun violence.

but in the case of sick individuals that murder people @ random...
That will happen in Any society not matter how safe it is.
Lets look @ the case of Japan... A country that many people say is PERFECT. Extremely high quality of life, low employment, good school system, educated populace, high GDP, and high levels of technoligical development.

Yet it still happens

"The Osaka School Massacre took place on June 8, 2001, at Ikeda Elementary School, an elite primary school affiliated with Osaka Kyoiku University in Osaka Prefecture, Japan. At 10:15 that morning, 37-year-old former janitor Mamoru Takuma entered the school armed with a kitchen knife and began stabbing numerous school children and teachers. He killed eight children, mostly between the ages of seven and eight, and seriously wounded thirteen other children and two teachers. Takuma was later convicted and sentenced to death by hanging. The sentence was executed on September 14, 2004.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre"

and

In five coordinated attacks, the conspirators released sarin gas on several lines of the Tokyo Metro, killing twelve people, severely injuring fifty and causing temporary vision problems for nearly a thousand others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

Japan is practically a gun free country by the way... Its nearly impossible to get a gun license.

So this really leads to the questions... is it really the guns that create sick people? Or is it just something in human nature, development, or society that cause it?

[NeoEsper]

Columbine is not the first school shooting either, this stuff has been going on along time now. It only has been recently that the school shootings has significantly increased. It is really sad how some people can go out and just shoot others.

[gordholio]

How many people live in Canada?

How many people live in the United States?

The point is we have shootings too. Canada is not a nation full of saints but a nation full of people. People like to kill other people and if Columbine never happened then these kind of things would have never happened either.

I think these school shootings would have happened at some time (maybe not this one or some of them specifically) even had the Columbine shootings - or earlier ones - never had taken place.
Violence (especially in the United States) is a part of life nowadays and it was bound to reach the schools at some time.

[hagbard]

Weird, I woke up this morning thinking something big was going to happen. Someone who "hates Mondays"?

[PSiBeR]

According to Associated Press - 31 killed

[spm24]

Weird, I woke up this morning thinking something big was going to happen. Someone who "hates Mondays"?

got to really hate those mondays to wake up at 7- 7 30 and start off your day shooting people.

[Firebot]

They still think allowing guns in US is a good idea?

A determined a person can probably still get gun in Canada, but not any random out-of-mind psycho who just walk into a school and kill 20+ people

VERY SAD...

This is a ******** statement, especially considering many in the US are using this example as a reason WHY people should be carrying guns to avoid such a massacre from happening.

And the Dawson shooting isn't even a year old yet...

[Mariano_Deals]

See what happens when you give any tool a gun in the states, that why our world is soo fcuked up

[abu_sme]

EDIT: I have decided on my own volition to keep politics out of this thread. It is not appropriate to use the recent death of innocent people to express ones political beliefs.

[Bullseye]

See what happens when you give any tool a gun in the states, that why our world is soo fcuked up

Yeah, this type of thing could never happen in Canada with it's strict gun control laws. :rolleyes:

[soulflare]

*shakes his head at the news in dismay*

Time to blame this on everything and everyone except the man behind the gun.


...especially considering many in the US are using this example as a reason WHY people should be carrying guns to avoid such a massacre from happening

Speaking of ******** arguments... give everyone guns on a campus (or in public) and the combination of panic and confusion would only result in a greater tragedy. People hear gunshots, pull out their guns to defend themselves, and then all of a sudden the question becomes, "Who's the shooter?". Maybe that guy is. *bang*. Maybe that woman is. *bang*. Suddenly the person 'defending' themself is perceived by 20 people as the shooter. *bang*. The cops arrive on the scene only to encounter citizens with drawn weapons everywhere and the question remains, "Who's the shooter?".

With everyone packing heat, all you would need to do in order to spark a massacre would be to cause panic in a crowded place.

[bigdaddyyc]

SUSPECT is asian, wearing a red cap and a black leather jacket. mid 20's according to someone who got shot, talking to msnbc from the hospital.

how can people crack senseless jokes in this thread, this is a terribly serious situation.

[ji2o0k]

Speaking of ******** arguments... give everyone guns on a campus (or in public) and the combination of panic and confusion would only result in a greater tragedy. People hear gunshots, pull out their guns to defend themselves, and then all of a sudden the question becomes, "Who's the shooter?". Maybe that guy is. *bang*. Maybe that woman is. *bang*. Suddenly the person 'defending' themself is perceived by 20 people as the shooter. *bang*.
good point, it would be mayhem in this type of scenario............everyone shooting each other.....

very sad and tragic, why would someone do this?

[YnD]

It's in their constitution - people have the right to bear arms.
It's not the guns that are the problem, it's the minority that misuse them.
I'm fine with someone having a gun to protect their property.

You mean like those lil 50 cent wannabes running around like at that boxing day shooting a few years ago.

[Mad.Whack]

there was campus shooting long before you ever heard of Columbine

Yes...

Here are two important ones in Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_Polytechnique_Massacre 14 Women

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordia_University_massacre 4 Professors

[PSiBeR]

SUSPECT is asian, wearing a red cap and a black leather jacket. mid 20's according to someone who got shot, talking to msnbc from the hospital.

how can people crack senseless jokes in this thread, this is a terribly serious situation.

Dam, its an asian guy who had the cal on him..?

definitely not one of those good mondays..

[canabiz]

Anyone got the name of this shooter ?

Fcking stupid dick

R.I.P. all victims

[SergesPlace]

Yes...

Here are two important ones in Canada.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/École_Polytechnique_Massacre 14 Women

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordia_University_massacre 4 Professors

and here is the previous largest school massacre in the US or Canada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman

15 dead 31 injured

[UrbanPoet]

Dam, its an asian guy who had the cal on him..?

definitely not one of those good mondays..

DAMNIT! STOP SPREADING RUMOURS.
There is no news on who the shooter is yet. No1 can be indentified.

I remember with the dawson shooting everyone said "omg. it was some crazy emo white guy"
ended up being some bown guy...

[PSiBeR]

they're saying 32 dead including the shooter now

[bigdaddyyc]

DAMNIT! STOP SPREADING RUMOURS.
There is no news on who the shooter is yet. No1 can be indentified.

I remember with the dawson shooting everyone said "omg. it was some crazy emo white guy"
ended up being some bown guy...

its not a rumour, read what he quoted (me)

MSNBC reported it and the news CAME FROM a victim who saw him. go to msnbc website and listen to his interview, over the phone, from the hospital.

[canabiz]

Everyone is reporting it's an Asian dude

Fck this ******. May he rot in hell.

[nickia]

>:( this is insane.

This morning I read a news about the shooting in Virginia Tech and never realized it escalated to 31 deaths...

[bigdaddyyc]

i was afraid the suspect was going to be Islamic... would've kept feeding the fire

[JWL]

People like to kill other people and if Columbine never happened then these kind of things would have never happened either.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,266368,00.html

List of Deadliest Campus Shootings in United States

Fatal shootings at U.S. colleges or universities in recent years:

—April 16, 2007: A gunman kills 21 people in a dorm and a classroom at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Va. The gunman later dies.

—Aug. 1, 1966: Charles Whitman points a rifle from the observation deck of the University of Texas at Austin's Tower and begins shooting in a homicidal rampage that goes on for 96 minutes. Sixteen people are killed, 31 wounded.

—Nov. 1, 1991: Gang Lu, 28, a graduate student in physics from China, reportedly upset because he was passed over for an academic honor, opens fire in two buildings on the University of Iowa campus. Five University of Iowa employees killed, including four members of the physics department, two other people are wounded. The student fatally shoots himself.

—May 4, 1970: Four students were killed and nine wounded by National Guard troops called in to quell anti-war protests on the campus of Kent State University in Ohio.

—Oct. 28, 2002: Failing University of Arizona Nursing College student and Gulf War veteran Robert Flores, 40, walks into an instructor's office and fatally shoots her. A few minutes later, armed with five guns, he enters one of his nursing classrooms and kills two more of his instructors before fatally shooting himself.

—Sept. 2, 2006: Douglas W. Pennington, 49, kills himself and his two sons, Logan P. Pennington, 26, and Benjamin M. Pennington, 24, during a visit to the campus of Shepherd University in Shepherdstown, W.Va.

—Jan. 16, 2002: Graduate student Peter Odighizuwa, 42, recently dismissed from Virginia's Appalachian School of Law, returns to campus and kills the dean, a professor and a student before being tackled by students. The attack also wounds three female students.

—Aug. 15, 1996: Frederick Martin Davidson, 36, a graduate engineering student at San Diego State, is defending his thesis before a faculty committee when he pulls out a handgun and kills three professors.

—Aug. 28, 2000: James Easton Kelly, 36, a University of Arkansas graduate student recently dropped from a doctoral program after a decade of study and John Locke, 67, the English professor overseeing his coursework, are shot to death in an apparent murder-suicide.

[UrbanPoet]

The FBI and the ATF believe the gunman, described as a young Asian male, used two handguns in the shootings before taking his own life, sources tell CBS News. One official added that the gunman was "heavily armed and wearing a vest."

we're how other reports reported a very white sounding name.

[malaco0219]

YEp... theres hardly any shootings in Canada. Yes it happens... but safety in Canada is top notch.
but guess what?
for every 3 households there is 1 gun.
Theres 20 million guns in Canada. almost 1 gun for every person.

Blame the disparity and gap between RICH and POOR for all the gun violence.

but in the case of sick individuals that murder people @ random...
That will happen in Any society not matter how safe it is.
Lets look @ the case of Japan... A country that many people say is PERFECT. Extremely high quality of life, low employment, good school system, educated populace, high GDP, and high levels of technoligical development.

Yet it still happens

"The Osaka School Massacre took place on June 8, 2001, at Ikeda Elementary School, an elite primary school affiliated with Osaka Kyoiku University in Osaka Prefecture, Japan. At 10:15 that morning, 37-year-old former janitor Mamoru Takuma entered the school armed with a kitchen knife and began stabbing numerous school children and teachers. He killed eight children, mostly between the ages of seven and eight, and seriously wounded thirteen other children and two teachers. Takuma was later convicted and sentenced to death by hanging. The sentence was executed on September 14, 2004.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osaka_school_massacre"

and

In five coordinated attacks, the conspirators released sarin gas on several lines of the Tokyo Metro, killing twelve people, severely injuring fifty and causing temporary vision problems for nearly a thousand others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarin_gas_attack_on_the_Tokyo_subway

Japan is practically a gun free country by the way... Its nearly impossible to get a gun license.

So this really leads to the questions... is it really the guns that create sick people? Or is it just something in human nature, development, or society that cause it?

There's 1 gun for every 3 house hold??? Are you serious?

I never thought there were that many guns in Canada

[jeffyjaixx]

Wow... very sad indeed... may all those who passed away RIP.

[canabiz]

we're how other reports reported a very white sounding name.

A lot of Asians have white-sounding names because their daddies are white or adoption or whatever

But I will reserve my judgments until all the facts come out

[YnD]

The FBI and the ATF believe the gunman, described as a young Asian male, used two handguns in the shootings before taking his own life, sources tell CBS News. One official added that the gunman was "heavily armed and wearing a vest."

Dam, usually white dudes do these kinds of shootings based on past history.

[ElChico]

There's 1 gun for every 3 house hold??? Are you serious?

I never thought there were that many guns in Canada

They're mostly rifles. Not hand gun's which seems to be the case here.

[perplexed_one]

how many more massacres until the government wakes up and does something?

[drucillica]

Wow, how tragic and sad.
And this is only 2 weeks after a shooting here in Seattle at the Univ of Washington....

[vrus]

how many more massacres until the government wakes up and does something?

what exactly do you want them to do?

**and why do people look towards the government to solve problems? We can all work together. We're there on those campuses, not the 'government'. I mean come on, besides a few policies here and there you think that's really going to stop a disgruntled student from finding a means to opening up and shooting everybody?

[Firebot]

*shakes his head at the news in dismay*

Time to blame this on everything and everyone except the man behind the gun.




Speaking of ******** arguments... give everyone guns on a campus (or in public) and the combination of panic and confusion would only result in a greater tragedy. People hear gunshots, pull out their guns to defend themselves, and then all of a sudden the question becomes, "Who's the shooter?". Maybe that guy is. *bang*. Maybe that woman is. *bang*. Suddenly the person 'defending' themself is perceived by 20 people as the shooter. *bang*. The cops arrive on the scene only to encounter citizens with drawn weapons everywhere and the question remains, "Who's the shooter?".

With everyone packing heat, all you would need to do in order to spark a massacre would be to cause panic in a crowded place.

Never said I agreed with this particular argument, in fact I highly disagree that giving guns to everyone solves issues. The problem is that as soon as such an incident happens it HAS to become political.

A school shooting happens in the US? Here are the opinions that surface:

Canadian: Oh look at what happens when you allow guns to be roaming free. Stupid Americans. Stuff like that always happens down south.

NRA member: See what happens when you don't allow concealed firearms permits? One person legally allowed on the premises with a gun could have stopped this from happening past one shot.

John Thompson: This is why games like Grant Theft Auto must be banned.

Bill O'Reilly: If this killer is found to be an illegal immigrant, this guy should have been deported years ago before this tragedy ever had a chance to happen. Why are illegal immigrants still allowed in this country to kill law abiding citizens?

Al Sharpton: Don Imus is an evil racist man bringing the black population down and must be further punished. Oh, there was a shooting?

[UrbanPoet]

A lot of Asians have white-sounding names because their daddies are white or adoption or whatever

But I will reserve my judgments until all the facts come out

there were many suspects tho....
Aparently it took a while for them to find the shooter.
Ive read a report that said he did one shooting... and then did the other shooting hours later!

Apparently the school is being criticized for not taking more precautions.
I imagine a guy doing a shooting, hiding somewhere... then starting it up again.
Imagine if your a cop walking into a school looking for a shooter thats hiding with a pistol tucked away. 100's of kids you dunno which one is which.
pretty freaky...

I just noticed on CBC showed photos of a "suspect" that was later ruled out to not be the shooter. I imagine there being a lot of suspects too :O

[YnD]

Blame Counter-Strike.

[raptorfan]

I don't think anyone can explain why any human being would go around killing innocent strangers...I don't think it can be prevented, you can put in precautions to lessen the likelihood but I don't think you can be totally safe anywhere. Just hope you get thru life and not be at the wrong place at the wrong time. Very tragic...>:(

[perplexed_one]

what exactly do you want them to do?

**and why do people look towards the government to solve problems? We can all work together. We're there on those campuses, not the 'government'. I mean come on, besides a few policies here and there you think that's really going to stop a disgruntled student from finding a means to opening up and shooting everybody?

well they can take away the rights to own firearms. they can contribute money to anti-social/psychological programs to help ppl who are in danger of lapsing into psychosis. they can fund metal detectors, security etc just like they did for planes post-9/11.

the american public can work together to force the govn't to adopt these kinds of measures. so I ask again, how many more massacres until the govn't finally wakes up?

[Shaner]

A good friend of mine is closely related to someone who goes to school there and according to that person, there's more than one shooter. Apparently there were two simultaneous shootings occurring at different parts of the school.

Now take what I said with a grain of salt until we got some kind of confirmation. As we all know, people at the scene of chaos aren't often the most reliable witnesses. This is coming from someone who was at the school today though.

[Jon Lai]

They still think allowing guns in US is a good idea?

A determined a person can probably still get gun in Canada, but not any random out-of-mind psycho who just walk into a school and kill 20+ people

VERY SAD...

And yet the US does not reflect on their constitution..

[Lone_Prodigy]

what exactly do you want them to do?

**and why do people look towards the government to solve problems? We can all work together. We're there on those campuses, not the 'government'. I mean come on, besides a few policies here and there you think that's really going to stop a disgruntled student from finding a means to opening up and shooting everybody?

+1

This does not boil down to violence in the media, video games, gun control, etc. The fact is: if you do commit such despicable acts, there's no reason for it. If you believe it, you can do it, no matter what's standing in your way. You know how people say "don't let this stop you."? They're referring to success, but the same principle applies here. The example from one poster about the janitor who stabbed children is just one way that banning guns does not work.

Honestly, you can discuss this until you're blue in the face. It still won't bring back the victims, and it won't stop the shooter. It might make the victims' families feel better that something was being done, but the truth is this was a senseless crime.

In times like these people like something/someone to blame, and they like to do something to prevent further tragedies from happening again. It's an instinctual reaction, but it's an overreaction.

No, I'm not advocating laissez-faire or living a life of apathy. The most we can do is to be aware of our surroundings and do our best to be contributing members of society. There's no use getting overly paranoid over such things.

[Shaner]

well they can take away the rights to own firearms. they can contribute money to anti-social/psychological programs to help ppl who are in danger of lapsing into psychosis. they can fund metal detectors, security etc just like they did for planes post-9/11.

the american public can work together to force the govn't to adopt these kinds of measures. so I ask again, how many more massacres until the govn't finally wakes up?

How many more rights do we have to lose before people realize the government can't solve all our problems. You take away guns, people will use knives. Install metal detectors, people will use plastic knives.

What next, strip search everyone who enters and exits schools? Guess what, I strip search people every day as part of my job, and guess where those people hide the weapons? That's right, in their a$$. If people want to commit murder, they will, plain and simple.

It's time for parents to take responsibility and it's time to preach more personal responsibility. Blaming the government only takes the responsibility off the individual. Stop looking towards the government for all your little problems and take a look in the mirror.

[malaco0219]

Yes, I would honestly like to see some of those authorative figures dead.. *cough*

Lol. :twisted:

And yet the US does not reflect on their constitution..

+1. However, different people view things differently. They perhaps think that they're doing great.

[Jon Lai]

There's 1 gun for every 3 house hold??? Are you serious?

I never thought there were that many guns in Canada

Don't forget people that live in farms and prairies have several guns for hunting and such.

[malaco0219]

Don't forget people that live in farms and prairies have several guns for hunting and such.

Yes that's true, forgot about the people in the country side..

But that's still quite a lot. I guess there's probably more people in the country side with guns than the city by a huge amount perhaps?

[haotj]

My friend and I was just arguing about it. His argument is that if everyone had a gun, they could've defended themselves thus incapacitate the shooter and cause less casualties. Interesting idea, but I think although it will lower death per incident, but it will dramatically increase the number of incidents!

[malaco0219]

My friend and I was just arguing about it. His argument is that if everyone had a gun, they could've defended themselves thus incapacitate the shooter and cause less casualties. Interesting idea, but I think although it will lower death per incident, but it will dramatically increase the number of incidents!

Not to mention the possible increase in murders because of people will actually go out and kill for any possible reason if they had guns accessible to them.

That's why police officers go through such tough interview processes and complete background check. If some people who aren't mature enough run around on the streets with a gun, the results would be devestating (Is that how you spell it?).

[UrbanPoet]

My friend and I was just arguing about it. His argument is that if everyone had a gun, they could've defended themselves thus incapacitate the shooter and cause less casualties. Interesting idea, but I think although it will lower death per incident, but it will dramatically increase the number of incidents!

ARRGGGG

The principal behind conceal gun carry isnt having EVERYONE packing heat.
But only a select few individuals. Even in states like Vermont and Alaska where there is NO PERMIT required to carry a pistol NO ONE carries one!

The principal is that a armed populace will STRIKE fear into the heart of criminals. Its the deference factor.
Imagine if your a criminal that stalks women or robs people. 1% of the population carries a gun for self protection. The criminals would think twice wondering what woul dhappen if they happen to meet that unlucky 1 %.

CRIME STILL Happens... why? Because the only ones that do participate in crime are the ones that are pushed into the absolute lower brinks of society. Only the truely desperate resort to such a life style. This would show why the US has such a large gap between the poor, middle class, and the rich!

Some cities in the US seem like a HUGE govt. subsidized housing project.

[and or]

How many more rights do we have to lose before people realize the government can't solve all our problems. You take away guns, people will use knives. Install metal detectors, people will use plastic knives.

I like my chances better against plastic knife guy, especially if I'm only one of the 30+ people he's trying to kill.

[Anessa]

My condolences go out to the families of the slain students.

[perplexed_one]

+1

This does not boil down to violence in the media, video games, gun control, etc. The fact is: if you do commit such despicable acts, there's no reason for it. If you believe it, you can do it, no matter what's standing in your way. You know how people say "don't let this stop you."? They're referring to success, but the same principle applies here. The example from one poster about the janitor who stabbed children is just one way that banning guns does not work.

Honestly, you can discuss this until you're blue in the face. It still won't bring back the victims, and it won't stop the shooter. It might make the victims' families feel better that something was being done, but the truth is this was a senseless crime.

In times like these people like something/someone to blame, and they like to do something to prevent further tragedies from happening again. It's an instinctual reaction, but it's an overreaction.

No, I'm not advocating laissez-faire or living a life of apathy. The most we can do is to be aware of our surroundings and do our best to be contributing members of society. There's no use getting overly paranoid over such things.

i could of sworn that before violent video games and the texas chain massacre, there were a lot less shootings, deaths, mental hospitalizations, etc.

yes everyone is capable of great evil, but when we are subjected to it day in and day out, dont you think you'd become a little desensitized to its obvious implications and be more prone to it?


How many more rights do we have to lose before people realize the government can't solve all our problems. You take away guns, people will use knives. Install metal detectors, people will use plastic knives.

What next, strip search everyone who enters and exits schools? Guess what, I strip search people every day as part of my job, and guess where those people hide the weapons? That's right, in their a$$. If people want to commit murder, they will, plain and simple.

It's time for parents to take responsibility and it's time to preach more personal responsibility. Blaming the government only takes the responsibility off the individual. Stop looking towards the government for all your little problems and take a look in the mirror.

why not inconvenience ppl at the school doors if it's in the name of safety? we do it already at airports. if it means 22 less ppl dead, hey, by all means. we live in tumultous times that require ever-improving counter-measures.

parents should take responsibility but so should society. we live in a community, there isnt a single moment when our actions dont impact others around us. the government is an extension of ourselves, but sometimes it needs to be hit over the head every once in a while to remind them that the society it rep's, is changing.

no, you're right we cant stop crime, but we can make it harder to commit. guns kill from a distance, knives from aclose, see the difference? the gun was invented for more efficient warfare, it cant be used to cut a steak in half.

[Lone_Prodigy]

i could of sworn that before violent video games and the texas chain massacre, there were a lot less shootings, deaths, mental hospitalizations, etc.

yes everyone is capable of great evil, but when we are subjected to it day in and day out, dont you think you'd become a little desensitized to its obvious implications and be more prone to it?

I could've sworn that before modern medicine, mass media, and military R&D, there were a lot fewer shootings, deaths, mental hospitalizations, etc.

Not everyone is as easily influenced by mass media as you may be. I would never think of going on a shooting rampage. I have no intention of obtaining a gun, legal or otherwise. I wouldn't even know where to begin. If there's a will, there's a way. Sound familiar?

I like my chances better against plastic knife guy, especially if I'm only one of the 30+ people he's trying to kill.

Take your chances with plastic knife guy. Would you also take your chances with arson guy, bomb guy, and anthrax guy? How about biological weapon guy?

[and or]

Take your chances with plastic knife guy.

How about biological weapon guy?

I'm betting biological weapon guy is a lot rarer than plastic knife guy, especially when it comes to crimes of passion/psych issues.

[Neovingian]

Thats horrible about what happened & my condolensces go out to the victims familys & friends.

I wonder what affect if any this will have on violent films and FPS games scheduled to be released this year.

They may all get their released dates puched back.

[and or]

Thats horrible about what happened & my condolensces go out to the victims familys & friends.

I wonder what affect if any this will have on violent films and FPS games scheduled to be released this year.

They may all get their released ates puched back.

Maybe they'll even cancel the wars!

[Brandon]

How many more rights do we have to lose before people realize the government can't solve all our problems. You take away guns, people will use knives. Install metal detectors, people will use plastic knives.

Ceramic knives are a bit better than plastic. :-0

[jakeoh]

The principal is that a armed populace will STRIKE fear into the heart of criminals. Its the deference factor.
Imagine if your a criminal that stalks women or robs people. 1% of the population carries a gun for self protection. The criminals would think twice wondering what woul dhappen if they happen to meet that unlucky 1 %.
"Deference" factor? I guess you mean deterrence.

Anyway, you really think those guys that goes on a rampage really care about being shot? They KNOW they will, and usually they just do the job themselves.

No deterrent here.

[UrbanPoet]

"Deference" factor? I guess you mean deterrence.

Anyway, you really think those guys that goes on a rampage really care about being shot? They KNOW they will, and usually they just do the job themselves.

No deterrent here.

No. I was just explaining the principal behind conceal carry in the states.
As for these whackos...
You cant stop whackos. No matter how hard it is to get a gun... this guy woulda freaked out and did something like ramming his car head on into the oppisite side of the highway b/c he felt "sad"
Or holding his baby while jumping off a bridge (which happened in Toronto).

you gotta stop this stuff where it starts.. the human mind is just to complex like that.

[jakeoh]

No. I was just explaining the principal behind conceal carry in the states.
As for these whackos...
You cant stop whackos. No matter how hard it is to get a gun... this guy woulda freaked out and did something like ramming his car head on into the oppisite side of the highway b/c he felt "sad"
Or holding his baby while jumping off a bridge (which happened in Toronto).

you gotta stop this stuff where it starts.. the human mind is just to complex like that.For me, the less guns there are, the safer I feel.

You really want to give the whole population the chance to decide who's a stalker or a thief? And even if they really are stalkers or thieves, you think it would be better if anyone could just shoot them?

And all in all, wouldn't it have been better if he rammed is car in the opposite line or jump off a bridge with his baby, than kill 31 innocent people with his handguns?

[lip1978]

I'd feel very uncomfortable allowing 900 18-24 year olds, in a dorm, who are known to drink, do drugs and be very stressed out at time, to have firearms.
Especially if we allow every dorm on every campus to allow it, it might outweigh the opportunity of killing 1 insane shooter.

[UrbanPoet]

For me, the less guns there are, the safer I feel.

You really want to give the whole population the chance to decide who's a stalker or a thief? And even if they really are stalkers or thieves, you think it would be better if anyone could just shoot them?

And all in all, wouldn't it have been better if he rammed is car in the opposite line or jump off a bridge with his baby, than kill 31 innocent people with his handguns?

the safer you feel, but its all an illusion. Just b/c you feel safer doesnt mean you are. And NO you cannot just get a gun (even in the USA) contrary to popular belief.

Take away the guns, and leave all the crazies and the gangsters...
your still gonna get robbed walking through the wrong dark alley, and eventually someone will go rape a baby or do something sick and deranged.

The problem goes further then just simply "banning guns".

[perplexed_one]

I could've sworn that before modern medicine, mass media, and military R&D, there were a lot fewer shootings, deaths, mental hospitalizations, etc.

Not everyone is as easily influenced by mass media as you may be. I would never think of going on a shooting rampage. I have no intention of obtaining a gun, legal or otherwise. I wouldn't even know where to begin. If there's a will, there's a way. Sound familiar?

Take your chances with plastic knife guy. Would you also take your chances with arson guy, bomb guy, and anthrax guy? How about biological weapon guy?

i fail to see the correlation between your argument in the 1st paragraph and whats being discussed. the fact of the matter is that we are discussing this issue in the context of urban crime/death and not medical/environmental/military and other non related subjects.

you're right not everyone is influenced by media, but dont assume that you know me enough to categorize me as weak-willed. but there is without a doubt a number of youth that are very impressionable, you see the crime in the streets of Toronto everyday bcuz musicians pump up the gang life. you see girls wearing skimpy clothes when female role models have led the way.

as to the last comment, no one wants WMDs, but again how does that relate to what we are talking about?

[just_For_ipod]

It just jumped into my mind Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University , it reminds me of the the shooting at the École Polytechnique de Montréal shooting, where
Marc Lépine carried out a shooting rampage at the school, killing fourteen women and wounding four men and ten women before committing suicide

[perplexed_one]

the safer you feel, but its all an illusion. Just b/c you feel safer doesnt mean you are. And NO you cannot just get a gun (even in the USA) contrary to popular belief.

Take away the guns, and leave all the crazies and the gangsters...
your still gonna get robbed walking through the wrong dark alley, and eventually someone will go rape a baby or do something sick and deranged.

The problem goes further then just simply "banning guns".

so if we armed everyone and had vigilante justice, what would be the point of the police? you're basically telling the ppl vested in the sole interest of protecting the public, that "you're uneffective, you're untrustworthy." and then there would be chaos.

in effect by creating the entity of police, we are saying that a segment of the popl'n is trained, constantly-checked, and endowed with certain morals. you cant have that with every individual person.

again you are not addressing the main problem of crime, poverty and racism. how do you get rid of the unwanted elements? well you educate them, rehabilitate them, make them feel like a part of the community as opposed to shunning them and marginalizing a whole segment of the popl'n. and for further measure, you take away any instruments that are efficient at killing and have no other use but that.

[joo]

If you look at murder in Japan and Britain, where they don't allow guns, the murder rates (i.e., deaths per capita) are much lower.

Guns make it way too easy to kill people.

If the killer today had only knives I don't think he would have killed as many people. So, yes, gun control is not the final answer, but it's a hell of a stop gap measure until we figure out how to keep people from completely freaking out.

perplexed_one: your sig - Achilles Last Stand by Zeppelin, right?

[UrbanPoet]

If you look at murder in Japan and Britain, where they don't allow guns, the murder rates (i.e., deaths per capita) are much lower.

Guns make it way too easy to kill people.

If the killer today had only knives I don't think he would have killed as many people. So, yes, gun control is not the final answer, but it's a hell of a stop gap measure until we figure out how to keep people from completely freaking out.

perplexed_one: your sig - Achilles Last Stand by Zeppelin, right?

guns are also banned in Jamaica with 300 murders per 100,000 so whats your point?

Another factor your missing is that even if there were guns in those countries crime wont happen anyways b/c of their high quality of life.
The British also report their crime a lot differently which helps them lower their crime rate.

[BadDrafter]

the safer you feel, but its all an illusion. Just b/c you feel safer doesnt mean you are. And NO you cannot just get a gun (even in the USA) contrary to popular belief.

Take away the guns, and leave all the crazies and the gangsters...
your still gonna get robbed walking through the wrong dark alley, and eventually someone will go rape a baby or do something sick and deranged.

The problem goes further then just simply "banning guns".

Lip was talking about guns on campus, a place full of stressed out people; it's finals week after all. He was not talking about banning guns in general. If you are not allowed to bring a space heater to a dorm for fear of fire, firearms should not be allowed either.

Guns should be banned on campus. Firearms do not belong on campus. There should be some gun free zones. I nominate educational institutions to be gun free.

[UrbanPoet]

Lip was talking about guns on campus, a place full of stressed out people; it's finals week after all. He was not talking about banning guns in general. If you are not allowed to bring a space heater to a dorm for fear of fire, firearms should not be allowed either.

Guns should be banned on campus. Firearms do not belong on campus. There should be some gun free zones. I nominate educational institutions to be gun free.

look through my post. no where did i say every man woman and child should own a gun O_O.
Yes i understand its unrealistic and dangerous for EVERYONE to have a gun... but if someone was willing to educate and train them selves, the right to bare arms shouldnt be taken away from them. As long as they are law abiding citizens without any mental disorders or anything like that

I was just telling people the principal behind Conceal carry.

[BadDrafter]

I was just telling people the principal behind Conceal carry.

Concealed weapons have very little to do with a situation like this.

Increased security in an educational institution is a better way to deal with these kind of threats.

In the not too distant future, sentry robots such as this would do a better job at protecting and detecting threats.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5YftEAbmMQ

[perplexed_one]

guns are also banned in Jamaica with 300 murders per 100,000 so whats your point?

Another factor your missing is that even if there were guns in those countries crime wont happen anyways b/c of their high quality of life.
The British also report their crime a lot differently which helps them lower their crime rate.

i might add that you would have to look at the historio/socio/economical factors of crime rates in their respective (gun-control) nations. the fact is Jamaica has been improverished for generations, they also been systemically enslaved and treated like dogs so no, gun control wont do a ding.

Japan and Britain have enjoyed many years of regional dominance, prosperity, high education rates, etc.



perplexed_one: your sig - Achilles Last Stand by Zeppelin, right?

yes thank you for noticing, that Zeppelin quote corrected a misconception I had about the Atlas myth

[UrbanPoet]

Japan and Britain have enjoyed many years of regional dominance, prosperity, high education rates, etc.


Which is why the gun control never made a difference anyways... The crime rate was already gonna go down by itself.

Canada has a lot of guns. top 10 in civilian gun possession in the world. Why don't we have hard core US crime? Our quality of life is top notch. It was only a few years ago that we ranked #1 by the UN.

anyways. im out. No more arguing about this. this should be for a different thread as it is going way offtopic.

[konfusion666]

I'd feel very uncomfortable allowing 900 18-24 year olds, in a dorm, who are known to drink, do drugs and be very stressed out at time, to have firearms.
Especially if we allow every dorm on every campus to allow it, it might outweigh the opportunity of killing 1 insane shooter.

+1

Why is it that the pro-gun nuts always use school shooting threads as a soapbox for their view that every man, woman, and child in the world should have a handgun on their belt?

Time to stop playing Counterstrike/GRAW and spend some time in the real world, methinks...

Watching the pro-gun nuts rant away... it's clear that it's become almost a religious cult of some sort!

Move over Israel vs. Palestine... the new game in town is GUN OR NO-GUN!

[perplexed_one]

ABC news reports that students stayed in touch with loved ones and classmates thru myspace, facebook, and email. there is also blame from some students posted online, criticizing the misinformed emails sent by administrators following the first minutes of the shootings.

Several people online also expressed anger at school officials for sending out an e-mail to proceed to class with caution but not canceling classes.


this is from http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=3046434&page=1



"SOMEONE WAS SHOT AND IT TURNS OUT THEY DIED. … I THINK THAT'S GROUNDS TO CANCEL CLASS RATHER THAN SENDING OUT AN E-MAIL THAT SAYS USE CAUTION AND REPORT ANYTHING TO POLICE. They could have saved almost 20 lives and 20 injuries if they just decided to cancel class right away," wrote one user who said he was Ben Hair, a freshman at the school.



But for the most part, the comments posted online were from people sharing their prayers and sympathies.



Within hours, one 26-year-old woman from Maryland wrote: "My thoughts and prayers are with all y'all at VA Tech. … I can't even imagine the immense loss you've experienced today, and the difficult days ahead."

"I am from Texas," wrote one 23-year-old woman. "I just wanted send my prayer for y'all. People Killed and thier [sic] Family families are in my thoughts."

There were even a number of attacks on the media, many — including ABC News — which were using the sites to contact people.


One apparent student wrote Monday afternoon "and if this is where all the news broadcasters are contacting me from stop doing it."





WASHINGTON -- President Bush said Monday that the mass shooting at Virginia Tech, the deadliest campus violence ever in this country, affects every student across the nation.

''Schools should be places of safety, sanctuary and learning,'' Bush said in reaction to the deaths of more than 30 people on the campus. ''When that sanctuary is violated, the impact is felt in every American classroom in every American community.''

Bush spoke with Gov. Timothy M. Kaine and Virginia Tech President Charles Steger.

''I told them that Laura and I and many across our nation are praying for the victims and all the members of university community that have been devastated by this terrible tragedy,'' Bush said in the Diplomatic Room of the White House.

''Today our nation grieves with those who have lost loved ones at Virginia Tech,'' he said. ''We hold the victims in our hearts. We lift them up in our prayers and we ask a loving God to comfort those who are suffering today.'''

Attorney General Alberto Gonzales said agents from the FBI and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives were already on the campus, aiding local authorities in the investigation.

''We are committed to providing support and assistance to those authorities as well as to the victims of this crime for as long as necessary,'' Gonzales said in a statement issued by the Justice Department.

''I am deeply saddened and angered by these senseless acts of violence,'' Gonzales said. ''My deepest condolences and prayers go out to those affected by this horrific crime, especially those who lost loved ones.''

In the House, which returned Monday from a two-week recess, Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., interrupted the proceedings to lead a moment of silence in remembrance.

''As the Virginia Tech community struggles with the mourning and questioning that is certain to follow, the continued prayers from this Congress are with the students, their families, the faculty and the staff at Virginia Tech,'' Pelosi said.

[UrbanPoet]

i find it really strange they didnt close down the schools.

[abu_sme]

Let's keep this on topic folk, I have already ninja edited one of my pro-gun statements out of this thread. I suggest that we leave pro-gun/gun control out of this thread so it doesn't get off the tragedy of 33 people dying!h

[kitbor]

Let's keep this on topic folk, I have already ninja edited one of my pro-gun statements out of this thread. I suggest that we leave pro-gun/gun control out of this thread so it doesn't get off the tragedy of 33 people dying!h

Of course, you don't want to talk about it, because it doesn't help your case.

[Lone_Prodigy]

No offense, but what else is there to talk about? Over 60 people wounded or dead. The gunman is dead, so there will be no trial. The next few days will be talk about "the renewed debate over gun control" and "who is the gunman? What drove him to shoot over 60 people?"

If we don't talk about gun control, campus security, how our society is hitting rock bottom, etc., then all we can do is offer our condolences and move on. Is that what you want?

[afong56]

what a tragedy.

my thoughts go out to all of the victims (and their families) of this senseless act.

[CHINAdeals]

i wonder if 'asian' automatically means 'chinese/korean/japanese'

anyone from the states? could asian still mean 'south asian'? but they wouldn't say 'indian' for fear of offense to natives?

anyways not trying to spark a fire here..just wonder if its within context.

what a tragedy :(

[TechRock]

the reporter at msnbc ask a student if the guy was black, white, brown, asian...the student replied he was asian so im pretty sure it is chinese/korean/japanese...

[bigdaddyyc]

i wonder if 'asian' automatically means 'chinese/korean/japanese'

anyone from the states? could asian still mean 'south asian'? but they wouldn't say 'indian' for fear of offense to natives?

anyways not trying to spark a fire here..just wonder if its within context.

what a tragedy :(
possibly but unlikely since asian means the same in america as it does here. if the suspect was south asian, middle eastern then they would say brown/tanskinned like they do with black suspects.

[Shaner]

I'm just sick of all your racist ********. I assume you are not a cop because you would not have passed the racial sensitivity training. Change your avatar to give some respect to those that have earned it.

Oh go away. Urban Poet is very respected around here and is anything but a racist. There's no need to listen to trolls like you.

[BadDrafter]

Ok this could have been prevented it looks like. They were given 2.5 hours warning to warn the students but chose not to because they thought the original shooting was an isolated incident. They figured warning the students would cause them to all jam the cellphone system so they chose not to warn them.

I smell a lawsuit.

i find it really strange they didnt close down the schools.

You're not alone there, the survivors are wondering that too!

[Firebot]

+1

Why is it that the pro-gun nuts always use school shooting threads as a soapbox for their view that every man, woman, and child in the world should have a handgun on their belt?

Time to stop playing Counterstrike/GRAW and spend some time in the real world, methinks...

Watching the pro-gun nuts rant away... it's clear that it's become almost a religious cult of some sort!

Move over Israel vs. Palestine... the new game in town is GUN OR NO-GUN!

Ahem, the first person to even mention the gun debate in this thread was someone blasting the US for allowing guns like if that crap can't ever happen in Canada. Don't be a hypocrite.

[perplexed_one]

we're how other reports reported a very white sounding name.


I'm just sick of all your racist ********. I assume you are not a cop because you would not have passed the racial sensitivity training. Change your avatar to give some respect to those that have earned it.

cereal, you misinterpreted UP, what he meant was the name William Morva a robber/murderer totally unrelated to the rampage, he was mentioned in news reports of Virginia tech bcuz he caused a disturbance near the campus earlier in the year. Yeah I thought this guy was the perp, but turns out they were just saying Virginia tech had a earlier incident (Morva) where the school closed.


UPDATE



The identity of the perpetrator was not immediately known. He committed suicide inside Norris Hall by a shot to the head and may have used either two 9 mm caliber handguns or a 9 mm caliber handgun and a .22 caliber handgun.[4][14][15] The authorities said that the gunman carried no identification,[4] but that investigators were trying to trace purchase records for the guns found near the body.[4]

A student speaking to Times Now said that the first gunshots were heard when classes were in progress. "We heard about 30 gunshots in the morning. The gunman appeared to be Asian and was looking for his girlfriend," the student said.[16]

The FBI and the ATF believe the gunman used two handguns in the shootings before taking his own life. One official added that the gunman was "heavily armed and wearing a vest"[17].

The Chicago Sun-Times has reported that the shooter may have been a 24-year-old Chinese national in the United States on a student visa.[18] According to the Drudge Report, a source reports: "The 24-year-old man arrived in San Francisco on United Airlines on Aug. 7 on a visa issued in Shanghai, the source said. Investigators have not linked him to any terrorist groups."[11]

An ATF source recently told NBC that the gunman was not a Virginia Tech student.

MSNBC has reported that the shooter was wearing a maroon cap and a black leather jacket during the rampage. [14]

[BadDrafter]

Hey UrbanPoet,

Ignore .You can't argue Ignorance. Your a good guy, anyone here who's been around knows it.

++

[HSK]

Keith Olbermann reporting that the shooter was an international student from China who arrived in the country last August.

[dx1997]

There are a lot of "rumours" floating out there right now.

Apparently some have found the guy's pictures/blog and facebook account. IF that is the killer, no one is 100%.

I say F*** this guy, he doesn't need 15 mins of fame.

And if you really want to see the pics/blog or facebook account, look around, because I won't post it, that's for sure.

[UrbanPoet]

Keith Olbermann reporting that the shooter was an international student from China who arrived in the country last August.

meaning that it would have been illegal for him to purchase a gun by any legal means. He must have either stole them, or bought it off some drug dealer.

[HSK]

Who knows where he got it from. There was mentioning he was upset at his girlfriend. Real upset.

I'm just speculating - but maybe kill girlfriend in the morning at her dorm and then...

[Firebot]

Who knows where he got it from. There was mentioning he was upset at his girlfriend. Real upset.

I'm just speculating - but maybe kill girlfriend in the morning at her dorm and then...

The story that I've heard is he apparently found her sleeping with another guy, and killed both (first shooting incident in the dorm). He then went on killing rampage 2 hours later.

[perplexed_one]

The story that I've heard is he apparently found her sleeping with another guy, and killed both (first shooting incident in the dorm). He then went on killing rampage 2 hours later.

where are you getting your info? i cant seem to find it on the american news.

[Firebot]

where are you getting your info? i cant seem to find it on the american news.

It was a few hours ago from a thread on another forum. At this point it might be stale info.

[abu_sme]

It was a few hours ago from a thread on another forum. At this point it might be stale info.
Somethingawful is an amazing place for get first hand information. I am following the same thread

[perplexed_one]

o i found some updates on wikipedia:

Speaking to TIMES NOW, Virginia University Police Chief Lt Joey Albert said that the citizenship of the students killed could not be ascertained. "It is too early to confirm the nationality of students," he said.

a student, speaking to TIMES NOW said that the first gunshots were heard when classes were in progress. "We heard about 30 gunshots in the morning. The gunman appeared to be Asian and was looking for his girlfriend," Takahishi said.

sources speculate that the shooter is a 24-year-old man that arrived in San Francisco on United Airlines on Aug. 7 on a visa issued in Shanghai, the source said. Investigators have not linked him to any terrorist groups, the source said.

READ this link:


Jonathan Kay: Two scary, fascinating first-hand accounts of the Virginia Tech shootings
The Washington Post Web site features a scary, fascinating interview with Trey Perkins, who was a student in one of the classrooms that the Virginia Tech shooter attacked. (The video segment consists of a telephone interview with Perkins, while footage of EMS personnel rolls in the background.)

According to Perkins, the first thing the shooter did was kill the teacher. Then he started randomly shooting students. All the while, he said nothing -- his face set in a serious expression.

Perkins' report contains an odd detail: The shooter left the classroom, and then tried to return. But by that time, Perkins and another student were blocking the door, the shooter gave up and went elsewhere. Perkins then heard shooting from other rooms.

Through his actions, Perkins may have saved his own life, (and the lives of other survivors in his classroom). On the other hand, lives in other classrooms may have been lost as a result. Such is the nature of these senseless, vicious crimes: A single, fleeting action can spell life or death for dozens of people you've never met.

I've also come across a separate eyewitness account from Josh Wango, another student in a different classroom. In his case, the awful scene in his class was like something out of a horror/action movie come to life: The killer was shooting people as they jumped through the 2nd-story window to safety. Wango got away. But several of his classmates and his teacher "didn't make it": They were too slow to get out the window and were killed.

In their interviews, both Wango and Perkins are completely calm and lucid. They are both obviously in shock. No doubt, as the horrific reality of these events set in, they will experience crippling grief. One can scarcely begin to imagine what they will be going through.

[Shaner]

heres wut happen


guys gf is cheating on him an dhes angry
its exam time and hes especially stressed out
if he failed he will be shipped back to china
the idea of his gf cheating and being shipped back triggers his anger

he gets a gun and goes to kill his gf
once he kill his gf he realizes hes screwed and is gonna get shipped back either way.
he kills as many as he can and kills himself

Ladies and gentlemen, put your hands together for RFD's very own mind reader.

[Henry Pope]

The shooter was a visa student

[TapemanPL]

so what was the motive for all this? i didn't really read the article in the link cuz its kinda old and i was watching the news after the link was posted and the news didn't mention anything

[manixc]

Keith Olbermann reporting that the shooter was an international student from China who arrived in the country last August.

for real? is there a link?


edit:
I've been reading the news. I can't believe they didn't shut down the campus after the first shooting.
man, what a sad day.

[Kasakato]

heres wut happen


guys gf is cheating on him an dhes angry
its exam time and hes especially stressed out
if he failed he will be shipped back to china
the idea of his gf cheating and being shipped back triggers his anger

he gets a gun and goes to kill his gf
once he kill his gf he realizes hes screwed and is gonna get shipped back either way.
he kills as many as he can and kills himself

I wounder what they could declare value for duties as?

[CanadaBoy]

I do not understand why they did not do anything after the first incident! (Or did they?)

[neilson]

cnn showed that the chinese guy killed a black guy and a girl in the dorm first
he couldnt handle the fact his gf was sleeping with a black guy or huk gwai as chinese say

this is gonna be a huge international event. chinese news is on it too.


then he went and killed 30 more people and then himself

It'll be interesting to see the ramifications that this has on Sino-USA Relations and the US Student Visa process. We have a whole lot of engineering students in this country from China.

[manixc]

I do not understand why they did not do anything after the first incident! (Or did they?)

from the news report, they said that the school thought the first shooting was isolated and the killer already left.

>:(

[nickia]

I bet this event will trigger a series of hates against Asian.:!:

[canabiz]

cnn showed that the chinese guy killed a black guy and a girl in the dorm first
he couldnt handle the fact his gf was sleeping with a black guy or huk gwai as chinese say

this is gonna be a huge international event. chinese news is on it too.


then he went and killed 30 more people and then himself

The question right now is:

Is his g/f white or Asian or black ???

I know exactly what you mean about the huk gwai

Inquiring mind wants to know

R.I.P all victims

[neilson]

I bet this event will trigger a series of hates against Asian.:!:

Ya know, this guy that shot up VT today should've been one of those guys that the Chinese put in a Deathvan if you know what I'm saying.

[CanadaBoy]

Virginia Tech School Shooting Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HNrBd4kKMg

Video captured from a cell phone camera, shows police firing at an unknown gunman on the campus of Virginia Tech.

The video was taken by Jamal Albarghouti with his cell phone and posted to CNN i-Report.

[nopn]

what is "huk gwai "?

[UrbanPoet]

Virginia Tech School Shooting Video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HNrBd4kKMg

Video captured from a cell phone camera, shows police firing at an unknown gunman on the campus of Virginia Tech.

The video was taken by Jamal Albarghouti with his cell phone and posted to CNN i-Report.

ugh... that makes me sick just watching it.

[malaco0219]

ugh... that makes me sick just watching it.
If it's that sick, i'm not gonna watch it.

[AzN_RiverdaleCI]

If it's that sick, i'm not gonna watch it.

its sick ihho, imho its ok.

[UrbanPoet]

its not graphic. Its just the idea of hearing the gun shots of an incident where over 30 innocent kids got killed.

[neilson]

what is "huk gwai "?

It's probably an Asian way of saying the N-word. Most likely Mandarin or Cantonese.

[JuNGleR72]

what is "huk gwai "?

That means a black person in cantonese.

[neilson]

That means a black person in cantonese.

Something about all this feels like the beginnings of a Tom Clancy novel.

[mahpoaht]

If it's that sick, i'm not gonna watch it.

Watched it, just the sound of gun shots, and some screams at the end but really nothing sick at all.

[P__S__2]

Very sad....

R.I.P. to all the victims...my respects go out to their family and friends.

[MasterXan]

meaning that it would have been illegal for him to purchase a gun by any legal means. He must have either stole them, or bought it off some drug dealer.

on another news article, the serial numbers were rubbed off so most likely he got it from a shady source

[HSK]

Thank God It Wasnt A Muslim Kid! :D

*let me find the source for the article I posted...just reading the articles makes me feel sick. i sorta feel bad for the kid. but killing 30?*

[pandaharo]

RIP all the victims of this tragic event.

I think the authority did the right thing not annoucing a lockdown and evacuation immediatly. Imagine a crazy gunman and panicing students jammed up in hallways trying to escape.

[darren9]

Wasn't Cecillia Zhang also murdered by a Shanghai VISA student?

[wasserkool]

Wasn't Cecillia Zhang also murdered by a Shanghai VISA student?

Even in China, almost all other province hate shanghai people because they are arrogant jerks that looks down on everyone including Canada and the USA. THey think they are the most devloped and advanced city in the entire friggin world. If you are from an outside province, you are literally looked down and frowned upon on the street.

Now another one of their dumbsh*T tries to play hero, good they further tarnished their lame image.

[rockthecasbah]

cnn showed that the chinese guy killed a black guy and a girl in the dorm first
he couldnt handle the fact his gf was sleeping with a black guy or huk gwai as chinese say

this is gonna be a huge international event. chinese news is on it too.


then he went and killed 30 more people and then himself

Uhh... the guy who was shot (RIP), and you proclaim was sleeping with the girlfriend, was gay. So doubtful.

This is known from his MySpace profile -> http://snipurl.com/clarkmyspaces

[masterhapposai]

Uuhh.... No i don't O_o
ive had relations with white girls
Some of my family members are white.
Just b/c i made a thread wondering what white people eat doesn't mean i hate whites. Let it go dude. That thread was some satirical.

Why would you assume i hate white people?
Is it b/c i pointed out how white people enslaved black people in America? Or is it b/c i pointed out the oppressive treatment towards Chinese(and Asians in general) in early Canada?
If that makes me a "white hater" your pretty messed up man.

that's all fine as long as you realize that the chinese sold their own people and encouraged treatment that way, and the africans were even worse offenders of that style of culture

you do know a lot of the "white ppl" said no. but then, jimmy joe bob down the road realized he can edge out joey tommy bill out in profits by $5 by getting slaves just like how they do in other countries, and was reassured a million times by the sellers that the slaves did indeed deserve the treatment and it's part of respecting their culture

it became such an issue, that the white ppl killed their own ppl to free the slaves, not something you see often or at all in other cultures, protecting other races.

the whole concept of slavery was brewed up by other cultures, that's a fact. the closest caucasians came to it was greek usage of helliots(their own ppl), but it was for the greater good and they were still treated well.



Anyways, back on topic:

1 security guard in every school should have a gun. In fact there should be 3of them. and 2 should or even all 3 of them should patrol together to ensure they can't be taken down. Or at the very least they should man camera stations which monitor hallways.

This should be mandatory in all large schools from now on. It's a small price to pay for security.

[keanefan]

There is no official confirmation yet that the killer was from Shanghai, China

so can you wait for official confirmation before bashing Shanghai, China

Thanks in advance

:arrow:

[neilson]

There is no official confirmation yet that the killer was from Shanghai, China

so can you wait for official confirmation before bashing Shanghai, China

Thanks in advance

:arrow:

Ok but when we get confirmation that the shooter was from Shanghai or in that province then it's on.

[gateway]

I bet this event will trigger a series of hates against Asian.:!:

do you see a series of hates against white ppl when the white boys shot up the schools years ago?

[TechRock]

do you see a series of hates against white ppl when the white boys shot up the schools years ago?

maybe becuz all the news station and the powerful ppl in society are white?
there is already hate showing towards asian...in the case of Wayne Chiang

http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2007/04/i_want_to_clear.html

[nickia]

do you see a series of hates against white ppl when the white boys shot up the schools years ago?

Is this a rhetorical question?

Mainstream doesn't get hate, only minority does. Hence, when a minority commits something serious, the entire community will suffer.
This goes the same for any race. For example, American was hated for awhile in Japan because few American soldiers raped some Japanese girls in Japan.

[HSK]

It's sad people generalize like that. They're mostly ignorant too. But it's going to happen.

Muslims fly into building. Poor Sikh gas clerk gets burnt alive.

Chinese dude massacres bunch. Poor Korean dude gets firebomb thrown into house.

[nickia]

Even in China, almost all other province hate shanghai people because they are arrogant jerks that looks down on everyone including Canada and the USA. THey think they are the most devloped and advanced city in the entire friggin world. If you are from an outside province, you are literally looked down and frowned upon on the street.

Now another one of their dumbsh*T tries to play hero, good they further tarnished their lame image.

I agree. Shanghai people aren't well liked as far as I know.

[weedb0y]

Society needs to put more focus on mental health issues that are obviously part of this problem. A balanced mind would not think and act on something like this.

[DaVibe]

No matter "What the person is" people are going to make dumb comments.
Can you imagine if this was a black male? How about an Emo-Rocker kid?
How about a brown woman?

Get a life.

[neilson]

I would expect some very public expression of regret and condolences from the "Chinese people" or some such. This could be a huge issue of "face" in China(especially with the Olympics coming up and Beijing seeking to bring in lots of American tourists, particularly of the college-age variety).

[DaVibe]

I would hope not. I take it as "someone" shot "some people" and not the ch!nk shot up all the white people, lets boycott China.
That's ridiculous, we're talking about North America.

But I guess with a conservative government, anything can happen! :)

[dre145]

i find it funny how people are saying a lockdown should have happened, its not like it would have changed anything, if a person wanted to kill people it wouldnt matter where it happened he probably still would have killed people

[DaVibe]

i find it funny how people are saying a lockdown should have happened, its not like it would have changed anything, if a person wanted to kill people it wouldnt matter where it happened he probably still would have killed people

I don't know about most people, but I'd rather be responsible for myself. If a GUN-MAN wants in, he'll use the gun and enter, doesn't matter that you "Locked The Door" and you're on the phone and you're crouched under your desk ... good luck to you.
Honestly, I'd rather handle my own fate in my own hands, take all of 2 minutes to run outside and run away - the end, I'm safe.
Really pisses me off to hear about this "Lock Down" ... one of the days I was absent from school years ago and we had one, I hear about it later in the day when I came in late ... try to lock me down, yeah right. I'll leave out the window, I'm not waiting like a sitting duck.

[bleeet]

on another message board, people were making Asian jokes

but they weren't hateful towards Asians

Lou Dobbs on CNN will probably rant & rave about China / foreign students

:arrow:
Lou Dobbs?? pfft

more like Bill O'reilly is going to have a field day ranting and raving about asians

[gordholio]

Society needs to put more focus on mental health issues that are obviously part of this problem. A balanced mind would not think and act on something like this.

Yeah, it's surprising that nobody around him could see any warning signs though.
I guess some people are so to themselves with their feelings that they don't talk to anyone and explode.
There are always people to talk to about problems, whether they be family, friends or counselors.
As Jesus, said "Just ask...".

[and or]

I bet this event will trigger a series of hates against Asian.:!:

Are Asians the new Muslims?

[Panzer505]

Even in China, almost all other province hate shanghai people because they are arrogant jerks that looks down on everyone including Canada and the USA. THey think they are the most devloped and advanced city in the entire friggin world. If you are from an outside province, you are literally looked down and frowned upon on the street.

Now another one of their dumbsh*T tries to play hero, good they further tarnished their lame image.

holy man! now we finally found some people in somewhere to blame for. even police didn't say the murderer is shanghai people, how do you know? even if the killer is , so all shanghai people are guilty? so are all chinese?
actually you are so dangerous just like the killer, you can easily blame all others just because of your personal opinion.

[sfu_lifer]

This poor chinese dude who loved guns and was somehow implicated wrongly as the killer:
http://wanusmaximus.livejournal.com/?REFER=xanga_redirect

Apparently they were looking for someone who fit the profile and he was 5/5:
- chinese
- loved firearms
- broke up with gf recently
- attended Virginia Tech
- lived in the dorm

him and his cute ex-GF:
http://vt.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32504758&id=6202368&l=d1b29

[Peckerwood]

Good job if its really a shanghai sickfvck that decides to go on a rampant, then all he did is further tarnish the ****** city's image.
This type of assumption is just as erroneus as if one was to say that the actions of Gamil Gharbi(Marc Lepine) are representative of all Montreal citizens.

:rolleyes:

[Candiana]

http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/343354,vatech041607.article
"The 24-year-old man arrived in San Francisco on United Airlines on Aug. 7 on a visa issued in Shanghai, the source said. Investigators have not linked him to any terrorist groups, the source said."

Good job if its really a shanghai sickfvck that decides to go on a rampant, then all he did is further tarnish the ****** city's image.

Aren't Shanghai and Beijing the only 2 cities with us embassy offices that can issue visas? not sure if they can travel to HK for student visa application. so a visa issued from SH means squat in pinpointing the guy's origin.

[chococrazy]

The shooter was South Korean.

[cf18]

Live CBC: The guy is a South Korean.

So he may had military training since all South Korean male are required to enrole in military.

[Menace]

The gunman in Monday’s Virginia Tech campus shootings has been identified as Cho Seung-Hui, 23, a student and native of South Korea, campus police chief Wendell Flinchum said.

[rockthecasbah]

Also to add on to the developing story:

On-air reports via MSNBC have also debunked the ’student from Shanghai’ rumor. The man who purchased the guns at Roanoke Firearms was in the U.S. as a permanent resident, according to the same network.

http://crimeblog.us/?p=368

I'm trying to find an article on the website for this info...

[fayenet]

A Virginia Tech senior from South Korea was behind the massacre of at least 30 people locked inside a campus building in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history, the university said Tuesday.

Ballistics tests also show that one of the guns inside that building was used in another shooting two hours earlier, at a dorm, Virginia State Police said.

Police identified the shooter as Cho Seung-Hui, 23, a senior from South Korea who was in the English department at Virginia Tech and lived on campus.

"It's certainly reasonable to assume that Cho was the shooter in both cases," but authorities haven't made the link for sure, said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of the Virginia State Police.

A law enforcement official, speaking on condition of anonymity because the information had not been announced, said Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for a March purchase of a Glock 9 mm pistol.


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/V/VIRGINIA_TECH_SHOOTING?SITE=TXHAR&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[DJXP]

there are so many incidents like this that a lot of people I talk to seem to be so desensitized by it. this was still shocking news to me, and I think schools have to somehow put some more enforcement to prevent these kind of acts. Its scary to think that going to school can be a dangerous thing.

[SergesPlace]

So the deadliest shooting rampage in US history was perpetrated by a Foreigner? Wow! they're going to have a field day with this one.

[DSTU]

So the deadliest shooting rampage in US history was perpetrated by a Foreigner? Wow! they're going to have a field day with this one.

as long as he killed other foreigners then no biggy for the US, but if he killed any blondes then watch out!!!

[milhaus]

I would expect some very public expression of regret and condolences from the "Chinese people" or some such. This could be a huge issue of "face" in China(especially with the Olympics coming up and Beijing seeking to bring in lots of American tourists, particularly of the college-age variety).

Yeah, this would be a great idea, especially since the killer was Korean. But hey, since we all look alike, the C^%$s, J*ps, and G*&ks better all apologize.

If apologies like this were required, Bush would have no time to conduct a war in Iraq.

[neilson]

I thought South Korea was a very passive, anti-gun country(for civilians), but then again it doesn't exactly sound like this guy was ROC material. I hope we see some solidarity from Seoul. American English teachers that go over there and make very good money aren't shooting up the South Koreans at their schools and South Koreans shouldn't be shooting up our schools.

I'd like to follow the reaction that comes out of South Korea via the "Ask anything about South Korea" thread. It would be an international incident if any Americans that are teaching English in South Korea decided to shoot up their school/academy.

[importpsycho]

Live CBC: The guy is a South Korean.

So he may had military training since all South Korean male are required to enrole in military.

doubt he went to military in korea
unless he joined right after he turned 18, and came to US when he was 20~21
probably 1.5 or 2nd gen immigrant

Gunman identified as Cho Seung-hui, a 23-year-old English major from South Korea

[rockthecasbah]

Yeah, this would be a great idea, especially since the killer was Korean. But hey, since we all look alike, the C^%$s, J*ps, and G*&ks better all apologize.

If apologies like this were required, Bush would have no time to conduct a war in Iraq.

well to be fair, that neilson guy (who said he was leaving RFD and yet strangely still posts after making such a big deal of his "leaving") posted that before it was revealed his ethnicity.

And AS I said on previous posts, maybe not here though, that report about him being a Chinese guy on a student VISA was HIGHLY uncorroborated! The article which I first read about that was from a horribly written article from Chicago Sun-Times, which had EVERY SENTENCE end with "blah blah, the source said". Yet there was no mention of how this source could know this info. The fact that this sketchy info was spread all over the media outlets, bringing on this whole debate (particularly from folks like neilson) about Chinese folks from mainland China/Shanghai, is quite disconcerting. I mean, it's like they found any random person as a source and just spewed out stuff. So he's Asian? Probably Chinese! And probably a mainlander! And probably not a resident of the country but on a student VISA. All assumptions proved to be false. I really don't know how they did the initial reporting from this "source", frankly.

As was mentioned by a previous poster, it's not an issue of race (although when a minority -in the broadest sense of the word- does something so publicized and terrible, it tends to revolve around race or culture... i.e. the Columbine or Dawson College killers and their goth culture) but rather state of mind. Most people know this fact but you can bet, like with post 9-11, there will be some small-minded and ignorant people who judge an entire ethnicity/culture/religion/etc by one individual's evil actions.

[neilson]

well to be fair, that neilson guy (who said he was leaving RFD and yet strangely still posts after making such a big deal of his "leaving") posted that before it was revealed his ethnicity.

I came back because of the magnitude of this issue and the high amount of Asians on this board so that I could gauge your reactions. There are also a number of RFD'ers that are overseas in South Korea right now that will be able to give us an idea of the coverage that this story will get over there over the next few days and weeks.

And AS I said on previous posts, maybe not here though, that report about him being a Chinese guy on a student VISA was HIGHLY uncorroborated! The article which I first read about that was from a horribly written article from Chicago Sun-Times who ended EVERY SENTENCE with "the source said". Yet there was no mention of how this source could know this info. The fact that this sketchy info was spread all over the media outlets, bringing on this whole debate (particularly from folks like neilson) about Chinese folks from mainland China/Shanghai, is quite disconcerting. I mean, it's like they found any random person as a source and just spewed out stuff. So he's Asian? Probably Chinese! And probably a mainlander! And probably not a resident of the country but on a student VISA. All assumptions proved to be false. I really don't know how they did the initial reporting from this "source", frankly.

As was mentioned by a previous poster, it's not an issue of race (although when a minority does something so publicized and terrible, it tends to revolve around race or culture... i.e. the Columbine or Dawson College killers and their goth culture) but rather state of mind.

It would be very interesting to know if this South Korean served his time with ROC Military and if so, how much he learned.

[jasira]

American English teachers that go over there and make very good money aren't shooting up the South Koreans at their schools and South Koreans shouldn't be shooting up our schools.



ummm from what I read in Korean news so far, he wasn't an international student. He moved to US when he was in elementary school and he was brought up in US. I don't think you should condemn all Korean students just because they share the same nationality. I don't think this is race issue but one person's twisted version of revenge on supposedly cheating girlfriend.

When I heard the shooting, I was shocked and distressed over the loss of lives that could have been prevented. My thoughts are with families of students who were killed or hurt in this incidence.

I know this is not a race issue but I really wish he wasn't Korean. Doesn't matter if he was brought up in Korea or in US but just that I can't help but be ashamed of being Korean today

[hover42]

I know this is not a race issue but I really wish he wasn't Korean. Doesn't matter if he was brought up in Korea or in US but just that I can't help but be ashamed of being Korean today

Don't be ashamed of being Korean. The killer, whether he's Korean, Japanase, Canadian, etc... was a VERY SICK person who got his hands on weapons he should not have had access to. The society in which he lives prides itself on giving anybody access to weapons that can kill easily and repeatedly with little recourse to an effective defense. May America (and Canada) wake up one day and ban weapons that can carry more than a few bullets; the usefulness of such weapons is MORE than outweighed by the necessity of preventing sick people of getting access to them.

[SergesPlace]

Tomorrow's newspaper headline - The Face Of A Madman

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ht_vatech_cho_070417_nr.jpg

[neilson]

Don't be ashamed of being Korean. The killer, whether he's Korean, Japanase, Canadian, etc... was a VERY SICK person who got his hands on weapons he should not have had access to. The society in which he lives prides itself on giving anybody access to weapons that can kill easily and repeatedly with little recourse to an effective defense. May America (and Canada) wake up one day and ban weapons that can carry more than a few bullets; the usefulness of such weapons is MORE than outweighed by the necessity of preventing sick people of getting access to them.

I will have to check and see what US Laws are pertaining to Firearms sales to those with a Green Card.

[Byrns]

doubt he went to military in korea
unless he joined right after he turned 18, and came to US when he was 20~21
probably 1.5 or 2nd gen immigrant


He's Korean, not born in the US.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3048108&page=1

[nickia]

Don't be ashamed of being Korean. The killer, whether he's Korean, Japanase, Canadian, etc... was a VERY SICK person who got his hands on weapons he should not have had access to. The society in which he lives prides itself on giving anybody access to weapons that can kill easily and repeatedly with little recourse to an effective defense. May America (and Canada) wake up one day and ban weapons that can carry more than a few bullets; the usefulness of such weapons is MORE than outweighed by the necessity of preventing sick people of getting access to them.

Unfortunately the mainstream society will stereotype all the Asian.
:!:

[bigdaddyyc]

do you see a series of hates against white ppl when the white boys shot up the schools years ago?

yup, EVERYONE gets stereotyped. in the case of the columbine shooting/recent montreal shooting, there's hate for trenchcoat wearing, manson loving, 'psychotic' WHITE goth types. sensible people know any human being can be as crazy as this guy, and isn't predominately controlled by genetics.

[rockthecasbah]

ummm from what I read in Korean news so far, he wasn't an international student. He moved to US when he was in elementary school and he was brought up in US. I don't think you should condemn all Korean students just because they share the same nationality. I don't think this is race issue but one person's twisted version of revenge on supposedly cheating girlfriend.

When I heard the shooting, I was shocked and distressed over the loss of lives that could have been prevented. My thoughts are with families of students who were killed or hurt in this incidence.

I know this is not a race issue but I really wish he wasn't Korean. Doesn't matter if he was brought up in Korea or in US but just that I can't help but be ashamed of being Korean today

Not to mention, this race thing may be completely negligible in terms of what happened yesterday. For example, some people do batshit crazy stuff in spite of belonging to a certain group (i.e. a person goes crazy and shoots people after being scorned by their lover -- that has nothing to do with being black, white, yellow, purple, WHATEVER! It's about the individual). He might have been Korean, yes, but his actions may not have been brought on or even relative to his Korean heritage (unlike, say, the terrorists and their proclaimed jihad on the West, which has a cause-and-effect relationship with their religious beliefs).

But because having a non-Caucasian school shooter is somewhat an anomaly in our society, race will be trumped up more than it should be. :|

[hover42]

I will have to check and see what US Laws are pertaining to Firearms sales to those with a Green Card.

That is irrelevant, and you would have realized that if you were clever.

[bigdaddyyc]

I thought South Korea was a very passive, anti-gun country(for civilians), but then again it doesn't exactly sound like this guy was ROC material. I hope we see some solidarity from Seoul. American English teachers that go over there and make very good money aren't shooting up the South Koreans at their schools and South Koreans shouldn't be shooting up our schools.

this is a rare incident, an isolated case, and comparisons wouldn't be fair to make.

[neilson]

That is irrelevant, and you would have realized that if you were clever.

EXACTLY. They're saying the guns had their serial numbers filed off which means he likely bought these guns from dirty hands.

[neilson]

this is a rare incident, an isolated case, and comparisons wouldn't be fair to make.

But they will be, because that's just the way this society is.

[nickia]

Not to mention, this race thing may be completely negligible in terms of what happened yesterday. For example, some people do batshit crazy stuff in spite of belonging to a certain group (i.e. a person goes crazy and shoots people after being scorned by their lover -- that has nothing to do with being black, white, yellow, purple, WHATEVER! It's about the individual). He might have been Korean, yes, but his actions may not have been brought on or even relative to his Korean heritage (unlike, say, the terrorists and their proclaimed jihad on the West, which has a cause-and-effect relationship with their religious beliefs).

But because having a non-Caucasian school shooter is somewhat an anomaly in our society, race will be trumped up more than it should be. :|

What you've mention are all correct but it doesn't mean everyone will think the "correct way" > This incident has noting to do with race

[Panzer505]

Even in China, almost all other province hate shanghai people because they are arrogant jerks that looks down on everyone including Canada and the USA. THey think they are the most devloped and advanced city in the entire friggin world. If you are from an outside province, you are literally looked down and frowned upon on the street.

Now another one of their dumbsh*T tries to play hero, good they further tarnished their lame image.

aren't our great detective wasserkool gonna come out say a word?

[sergiepopov]

all these gunmen killing civilians, women are retards..join the army and get yourself killed in combat..if you decided to end it

[nickia]

A rational being will understand it was an isolated incident. But when all the emotions kick in, it's unavoidable for people to feel: "It's all Asian's fault"

[bigdaddyyc]

But they will be, because that's just the way this society is.

society didn't make the comparison in this thread, you did. in your previous post, you were making a comparison between american teachers in south Korea not shooting up the schools, and this isolated case of a korean student shooting up the school (you said something like 'koreans shooting up our schools').

[Byrns]

A rational being will understand it was an isolated incident. But when all the emotions kick in, it's unavoidable for people to feel: "It's all Asian's fault"

I haven't heard anyone say this yet.

[PSiBeR]

Killed first ... Emily Hilscher (Ex-Gf) and Ryan Clark (Resident Advisor).

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2007/04/17/1176696813395.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1

for some reason kept believing that the shooter was some asian dude from mainland China.. :|

[bigdaddyyc]

EXACTLY. They're saying the guns had their serial numbers filed off which means he likely bought these guns from dirty hands.

aren't students, even those on a student visa, subject to the US constitution and would be protected by his right to bear arms?

[UrbanPoet]

I will have to check and see what US Laws are pertaining to Firearms sales to those with a Green Card.

Only citizens may possess and own firearms in the US.

[Byrns]

Only citizens may possess and own firearms in the US.

And even citizens are subject to background and criminal records checks.

[YnD]

Tomorrow's newspaper headline - The Face Of A Madman

http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/ht_vatech_cho_070417_nr.jpg

I blame counter-strike, world of warcraft, lineage, starcraft...
warcraft 3 DOTA.

all korean dominated games.

[Rosico]

I wonder when we will start to first hear from CNN/FOX: "We caution viewers that although the gunman was from South Korea, not all South Korean's are gunmen". Now, if he was from North Korea ... wow, it would be a terrorist event ... then again, I don't think they are allowed to leave ...

This was clearly an isolated incident ... wonder what set him off to do such a horrible thing?

[neilson]

I blame counter-strike, world of warcraft, lineage, starcraft...

all korean dominated games.

I really wish I could laugh at your sarcasm but I can't. It just seems too logical.

[ZenOps]

Whoa, we have a new weiner. Someone who topped the trenchcoat mafia.

Korean guy too, didn't expect that, was expecting another white guy like Timothy Mcveigh or something.

[MasterXan]

I blame counter-strike, world of warcraft, lineage, starcraft...

all korean dominated games.

if the police found some games in his dorm, Jack Thompson would be all over this case. actually, he's already on the case since yesterday but he'll be back if this is actually true.

[ZenOps]

Even in China, almost all other province hate shanghai people because they are arrogant jerks that looks down on everyone including Canada and the USA. THey think they are the most devloped and advanced city in the entire friggin world. If you are from an outside province, you are literally looked down and frowned upon on the street.

So how is that any different than people from Toronto, the "Center of the universe".

[YnD]

What you've mention are all correct but it doesn't mean everyone will think the "correct way" > This incident has noting to do with race

It doesn't, but thats what everyone sees, thats what media exaggerates, thats what people will talk about in forums.... so in a social sense, it does.

Just like how blacks are associated with gang shootings. Has nothing to do with race, but when everyone sees it on TV or in the Paper, thats what they think about and stereotype.

[ElChico]

He killed a holocaust survivor. That's bad karma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_Librescu

[Mulder and Scully]

if the police found some games in his dorm, Jack Thompson would be all over this case.

I can't imagine that the police wouldn't find any games in his dorm considering that Nintendo/Sony/Microsoft together and all the PC publishers have what? A billion games out there? It's too bad the video game industry doesn't have any lobbying power like Hollywood does because every home has movies in it but when was the last time anyone blamed Hollywood for violence?

[asot24]

Emily Hilscher can also be found on facebook. LOL

You're a ****ing idiot.

[perplexed_one]

this massacre hasnt really hit me until now. it's a really cold feeling, I hope they prevent this from happening again.

Rest in peace.

[konfusion666]

I hope they prevent this from happening again.


History repeats itself. In a few years, it'll happen again.

[danthemightyone]

RIP to all victims, especially Liviu Librescu

[stealth]

Only citizens may possess and own firearms in the US.

A law enforcement official said Cho was carrying a backpack that contained receipts for the purchase of a Glock 9mm pistol in March.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/?GT1=9246

[gordholio]

The thing I noticed in the picture on TV and on the web is how serious looking this guy was. Usually when you have your photo taken you smile.

[Menace]

It hit me too today. About 10 years ago, I had my comping trip with my buddies over that part of country (Virginia & West Virginia). It is very beautiful and hilly down there.

this massacre hasnt really hit me until now. it's a really cold feeling, I hope they prevent this from happening again.

Rest in peace.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Emily Hilscher can also be found on facebook. LOL

Not sure if you can report a post for being "insensitive", but I did it anyways.

This story won't end well. Now the gunman's entire life will be dissected and linked to his crime.

My mom mentioned that such people like the gunman resolve to die in a "blaze of glory." She wishes that the media could deny his request and not cover the story in detail, but I disagreed. Knee-jerk reactions will need someone and something to blame, because people need a reason for the inexplicable.

Unfortunately, this is going to reflect badly on a lot of people and things which have been "acceptable" up to this point.

[Byrns]

Whoa, we have a new weiner. Someone who topped the trenchcoat mafia.

Korean guy too, didn't expect that, was expecting another white guy like Timothy Mcveigh or something.

Why? The last school shooting was done by a brown guy. Plenty of minorities have committed these acts before. (in addition to "whites")

[afong56]

not to rain on anyone's parade (i do enjoy discourse), but reading argumentative posts and debate in this thread seems inappropriate.

i would totally participate in a different thread, perhaps one entitled "gun control", "are foreigners dangerous" or "it wouldn't happen in canada", but for some reason, it just comes off as insensitive to read anything more than either sympathies and condolences, or straight reporting of factual details.

maybe that's just me.

[back to the regularly scheduled arguments]



p.s. other threads in o/t have been locked for getting off topic (didn't know that was possible, but okay), so imho, this thread is going that way

[stevethewheel]

The thing I noticed in the picture on TV and on the web is how serious looking this guy was. Usually when you have your photo taken you smile.

Researchers will find and use pictures that are most compelling for journalism. If there was a picture of this guy happy and playing with his dog they wouldn't use it at this time.

[UrbanPoet]

everyone can steal and use my avatar if they want.

[civ@uw]

The thing I noticed in the picture on TV and on the web is how serious looking this guy was. Usually when you have your photo taken you smile.

Well it looks like they're using mugshots from IDs: not usually the kind of place you flash your pearly whites. Also, what stevethewheel said.

[kitbor]

Whoa, we have a new weiner. Someone who topped the trenchcoat mafia.

Korean guy too, didn't expect that, was expecting another white guy like Timothy Mcveigh or something.

This person lived in US for 14 years, it didn't matter where he from, he's practically an American.

[Beradon]

He killed a holocaust survivor. That's bad karma.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liviu_LibrescuNot only a holocaust survivor but also a hero. He sacrificed himself to save some of his students.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OIFQKG0&show_article=1

[HSK]

Do you know what's sad?

The media's already biting on the "Foreign/Asian/Korean kids were bound to do this...they're social outcasts...and hate us" garbage.

You should of seen Geraldo Riviera's racist rant yesterday night.

[jhan]

American English teachers that go over there and make very good money aren't shooting up the South Koreans at their schools and South Koreans shouldn't be shooting up our schools.
What kind of dumb logic is this? The killer's nationality had nothing to do with this event. It's not like a group of anti-US Korean students came over and decided to kill people. This was a messed up kid who grew up in US, influenced by US culture.

[majesus]

Terrible news. :(
Thoughts go out to the Victims. Some are shown
here (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/vtech.shooting.victims/index.html)

I will never understand how anyone can ever pull themselves to do such thing... It happens. Such hardship.
Terrbile news :(

[Beradon]

Do you know what's sad?

The media's already biting on the "Foreign/Asian/Korean kids were bound to do this...they're social outcasts...and hate us" garbage.

You should of seen Geraldo Riviera's racist rant yesterday night.That doesn't make sense. Geraldo had a on air argument a couple of weeks ago with Bill O'Rielly over illegal immigrants. He defended them saying they shouldn't be rounded up like animals to be sent away.

[rogue]

there are so many incidents like this that a lot of people I talk to seem to be so desensitized by it. this was still shocking news to me, and I think schools have to somehow put some more enforcement to prevent these kind of acts. Its scary to think that going to school can be a dangerous thing.


With most campus classroom buildings wide open it is very difficult to provide any enforcement ...most dorms can be secured but not the classroom environments. We are starting to see a change in the way classroom doors are secured now here in Canada....but it is a slow process.

[majesus]

Do you know what's sad?

The media's already biting on the "Foreign/Asian/Korean kids were bound to do this...they're social outcasts...and hate us" garbage.

You should of seen Geraldo Riviera's racist rant yesterday night.

What kind of dumb logic is this? The killer's nationality had nothing to do with this event. It's not like a group of anti-US Korean students came over and decided to kill people. This was a messed up kid who grew up in US, influenced by US culture.

Yeah that is pretty dumb. There are millions and millions of people who grow up in US culture, as well as there are millions of people who have different races and live together but they don't kill people. One person does it, and we blame culture, and race?

That's not right... people who do such berserk undertaking must have endured some life long hardship that caused them to forget common sense and judgment. I never blame them directly, some people minds are in poor health. Not everyone is lucky like us and has a good head on their shoulder.

[HSK]

That doesn't make sense. Geraldo had a on air argument a couple of weeks ago with Bill O'Rielly over illegal immigrants. He defended them saying they shouldn't be rounded up like animals to be sent away.

Oh common. That was a class act. Two fox guys yelling each other only to end with a "see, look, fox is the best - we're a no spin zone". They've done the same skit countless times. I dont buy it.

Apparently someone he knew got hurt in the incident. I think he'll be doing his show today from Virginia.It seemed like he was about to call Cheney and demand a full fledged war on Asia for killing "our kids".

[civ@uw]

I haven't really seen any backlash against Asians online (other than from neilson who is a ***** stirrer), more just predictions about it happening. What did Geraldo say last night?

[Anessa]

I hope we see some solidarity from Seoul. American English teachers that go over there and make very good money aren't shooting up the South Koreans at their schools and South Koreans shouldn't be shooting up our schools.


Of course Seoul condemns this heinous act. This was a one off incident. You make it sound like the South Koreans have been constantly doing it.

[LeeBoA]

crazy stuff...

[neilson]

I haven't really seen any backlash against Asians online (other than from neilson who is a ***** stirrer), more just predictions about it happening. What did Geraldo say last night?

I'm making a clear point.

There is so much anti-americanism out there, in South America, in Asia, in Europe...

If this event were in the other way where a person of American origin committed this unspeakable tragedy on a foreign nation's University, the public outcry would be to demand for the USA to kneel and apologize to the whole world for one of "it's own".

[DSTU]

The US is an extremely violent culture, they rain death all over the world.

How many people have been killed in Iraq/Afghanistan, this happens everyday day there.

[Anessa]

No there wouldn't. The actions of one individual doesn't exemplify a nation. They acted in their own frame of mind and on their own accord.

[abu_sme]

He was some sick bastard who went on a killing spree. Its not like anyone is going to all of the sudden become suspicious of anyone Asian looking because of this. I mean, he was a bloody permanent resident! Some posters on this board are so quick to jump on the "the white people are going to have a huge backlash against asians" that it almost borders on racism itself.

EDIT:

"ne of the guns was used in both incidents. An official added that Cho was "heavily armed and wearing a vest."[28][29][30][31] Permanent legal residents of the United States who are 21 years of age or older are eligible to purchase handguns provided they have not been convicted of any felonies or have other disqualifications.[32] Virginia Tech is a designated gun free zone by the state legislature."

[jhan]

I'm making a clear point.

There is so much anti-americanism out there, in South America, in Asia, in Europe...
and what does that have to do with this messed up kid who grew up in US?

[majesus]

The US is an extremely violent culture, they rain death all over the world.

How many people have been killed in Iraq/Afghanistan, this happens everyday day there.

Agreed... sadly it does.. We do live in a crazy world.

[bigdaddyyc]

I'm making a clear point.

There is so much anti-americanism out there, in South America, in Asia, in Europe...

If this event were in the other way where a person of American origin committed this unspeakable tragedy on a foreign nation's University, the public outcry would be to demand for the USA to kneel and apologize to the whole world for one of "it's own".

speculative, but even so, why does it matter? To reiterate my previous post, which you have not responded to, you're making this a racial issue when it isn't one.

ps. South korea has already apologized (even though, imo, they didn't have to) and asked for this incident to not become a racial issue.

[rockthecasbah]

I'm making a clear point.

There is so much anti-americanism out there, in South America, in Asia, in Europe...

If this event were in the other way where a person of American origin committed this unspeakable tragedy on a foreign nation's University, the public outcry would be to demand for the USA to kneel and apologize to the whole world for one of "it's own".

That's all conjecture. You're making unfounded assumptions and basing your reaction to this sad tragedy on those assumptions. Frankly, all your comments/arguments are spurious and kind of frightening. If he was a South Korean who came here in the name of killing people in such a dramatic fashion and was an illegal immigrant at the time, then I can see your outrage and your line of reasoning. But this is just a mentally imbalanced man, who's there legally since age 8 (http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/04/17/cho.profile/index.html), who happens to be of South Korean descent. There is no correlation, until proven otherwise, between his country of origin and his actions on that fateful day! So you implying again and again (and again) that IF THIS WAS AN AMERICAN THAT DID THIS IN SO and SO FOREIGN COUNTRY, HEADS WOULD ROLLLLLL and that South Korea is somehow involved (and I don't mean involved as in responsible, but as in that it is something to consider when deconstructing what happened), is just weak.

Besides, Americans have killed many innocent victims before but it's been in the name of war and the guilt-free, euphemistic term "Collateral Damage" is used instead of victim. The mainstream media, which you're surely aware, does filter and frame news stories in certain ways so IF an American did something as horrible as this overseas, I highly doubt that they wouldn't use news tactics to make the world perceive the US as needing to "kneel down and apologize".

p.s. " and apologize to the whole world for one of "it's own"."
It's = it is. So you're saying "It is own". Its is possessive.

[jhan]

The stupidity of neilson is simply stunning.

[ZenOps]

Why? The last school shooting was done by a brown guy. Plenty of minorities have committed these acts before. (in addition to "whites")

True, but Timothy McVeigh (aside from being white) was trained military all his life, and actively killed people in other nations (and paid well to do it) before deciding to do it "at home". He even earned a Bronze Star for exceptional body counts when using a 25mm cannon. Unfortunately, many whites are allowed to indiscrimately kill other people and call it a "job".

As a student, this guy probably was indoctrinated into the American peace culture not a war culture, which makes it strange. I could totally understand this if he had a few years of military training before coming over, but he didn't.

[HSK]

Was This Kid The Only Suspect? Police Still Have Someone Else In Custody.

[Stoe99]

I wrote an exam yesterday, I got home at 9:30, and I turned on the TV, I saw that there was a shooting, 1 dead, 17 wounded. I thought wow, thats alot wounded, and I turned my TV off. I turned ut back on a few hours later, and the number was now 31 dead, 29 injured......my jaw dropped, and I couldn't even think for a minute.

A few quick thoughts, this man did all this with 2 semi auto handguns.... The kids who went into Columbine went in with Sawed of Shotguns, tech 9's, and various full auto and semi auto weapons, and they only managed to kill 14-17.

This is insane, what is this world coming to?

[neilson]

The stupidity of neilson is simply stunning.

What, because I'm not gonna take the PC route like you guys? I have my opinions, I know I'm not racist, and I just feel that there should not be a double standard.

Whenever an American does wrong around the world, WE hear about it back here. Even if they're of American origin and haven't lived here in years.

Quit your whining and understand that what I'm saying, many others are privately thinking.

[TechGuyMTL]

I don't mean to sound stereotypical, but I will anyway because there's a grain of truth in what I say...

I predicted the killer would either be some mofo homeboy or an asian nutjob who wants to go out kamikaze style. And lo and behold surprise surprise...

If none of the above, the killers usually end up being white boys... who played too much Quake or the like.

If you think I'm being racist, suck it up.

Irregardless, this is an utter tragedy that should have never happened. My heartfelt prayers go out to the victims and their families.

[LittleStone]

As a student, this guy probably was indoctrinated into the American peace culture not a war culture, which makes it strange. I could totally understand this if he had a few years of military training before coming over, but he didn't.
He was an English major, so probably all the assumed difficulties faced by immigrants (because of different language and cultures) were not factors affecting his behaviour. I would say he has serious psychological problems just like any other crazy killers and it's not related to culture or ethnicity.

Mr. Cho may have been taking medication for depression, according to news reports that also said he had become increasingly violent and erratic, and had left a note in his dorm in which he railed against “rich kids,” “debauchery” and “deceitful charlatans” on campus.

Instead of focusing on ethnicity or nationality, maybe the discussion could focus on the inequality!

[neilson]

I don't mean to sound stereotypical, but I will anyway because there's a grain of truth in what I say...

I predicted the killer would either be some mofo homeboy or an asian nutjob who wants to go out kamikaze style. And lo and behold surprise surprise...

If none of the above, the killers usually end up being white boys... who played too much Quake or the like.

If you think I'm being racist, suck it up.

Irregardless, this is an utter tragedy that should have never happened. My heartfelt prayers go out to the victims and their families.

QFT.

[rockthecasbah]

What, because I'm not gonna take the PC route like you guys? I have my opinions, I know I'm not racist, and I just feel that there should not be a double standard.

Whenever an American does wrong around the world, WE hear about it back here. Even if they're of American origin and haven't lived here in years.

Quit your whining and understand that what I'm saying, many others are privately thinking.

Please enlighten us, oh wise American one, of all the travesties, of similar proportions, Americans have committed that have made the world ask the US to kneel down and apologize. Besides, I don't think I've yet heard the US publicly apologize for anything, including killing innocent victims in war. :-0

You KEEP talking about the double standard but until you can backup your claim about this double standard, you're just sounding more and more unintelligent with the blabbering.

ALSO IRREGARDLESS IS NOT A REAL WORD! Unless you are Gretchen from Mean Girls (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0377092/quotes)

[ZenOps]

Yeah, the idea of "rich kids" and "debauchery" definitely does not sound very racially motivated.

Financial gaps might be the issue here: The guy might not have been able to afford an education anymore. Might have been pissed off at being the proletariat and never the bourgeousie (sp?) all the time. I know a lot of peeps who barely scraped through post-secondary on Mac and Cheese, some take it in stride, others grow a deep hatred and resentment.

[Byrns]

True, but Timothy McVeigh (aside from being white) was trained military all his life, and actively killed people in other nations (and paid well to do it) before deciding to do it "at home". He even earned a Bronze Star for exceptional body counts when using a 25mm cannon. Unfortunately, many whites are allowed to indiscrimately kill other people and call it a "job".

As a student, this guy probably was indoctrinated into the American peace culture not a war culture, which makes it strange. I could totally understand this if he had a few years of military training before coming over, but he didn't.

Sure and plenty of Hispanics, Blacks, and Asians murder each other at their "jobs" too. (aka Gangs)

Last time I checked the US and Canada have no race restrictions for being in the army.

I love how people on this forum love to play the race card every chance they can.:confused:

[Byrns]

Please enlighten us, oh wise American one, of all the travesties, of similar proportions, Americans have committed that have made the world ask the US to kneel down and apologize. Besides, I don't think I've yet heard the US publicly apologize for anything, including killing innocent victims in war. :-0

You KEEP talking about the double standard but until you can backup your claim about this double standard, you're just sounding more and more unintelligent with the blabbering.

ALSO IRREGARDLESS IS NOT A REAL WORD!

America as a nation is not without it's crimes against man. Neither is China. Neither is Canada.

All nations are held accountable one way or another for their actions. And public opinion of America is very low, and they're under siege by terrorists.

[gordholio]

Regardless of what background the murderer had or his ethnicity or his upbringing, it doesn't matter.
There's no excuse for murdering people.
To murder people at random and then keep shooting and shooting after you've seen people killed is just totally incomprehensible in my opinion.
Absolutely beyond any conscience. Sort of like under the influence of something evil.
There are people in this world who have given themselves over to dark powers and have cut themselves off of any humanity.

[abu_sme]

America as a nation is not without it's crimes against man. Neither is China. Neither is Canada.

All nations are held accountable one way or another for their actions. And public opinion of America is very low, and they're under siege by terrorists.


I know that you are talking on a macro level here, but lets keep in on topic. South Korea really isn't responsible for this.

Let's not let nailson veer this any more off topic than usual.

[jhan]

What, because I'm not gonna take the PC route like you guys? I have my opinions, I know I'm not racist, and I just feel that there should not be a double standard.

Whenever an American does wrong around the world, WE hear about it back here. Even if they're of American origin and haven't lived here in years.

Quit your whining and understand that what I'm saying, many others are privately thinking.
I'm browsing several large forums while preparing for an exam.. and to be honest, I was worried about forums being flooded people like neilson. It's good to know that there are only few. neilson, your way of thinking is clearly flawed like others have mentioned. If you can't realize why, then you clearly have a problem and I hope you do not get involved in a global working environment, ever. Your comments are disgusting. Back to studying for me. :D

[Freak]

Check out some "plays" that have been attributed to him as part of his English major...wow...this guy was messed up. Just like with past inidents like this...how did someone not see it coming?

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

[neilson]

I know that you are talking on a macro level here, but lets keep in on topic. South Korea really isn't responsible for this.

Let's not let nailson veer this any more off topic than usual.

Like it's soo bad that ppl are agreeing or thinking like I've said here. Gimme a break.

[ZenOps]

Ahh, but the US government actively rewards people for killing other people as long as the country is labelled "undesireable". Gang members are only actively rewarded in their small circle, if caught by the larger government they are actively penalized for their killing. If you want to compare a government to a gang leader, well then yes that is true.

But probably back on topic, the class wars have been around for a long time to "let them eat cake" statement started the bloodiest revolution that France ever saw.

[SergesPlace]

Stay on topic please!!

[perplexed_one]

I'm making a clear point.

There is so much anti-americanism out there, in South America, in Asia, in Europe...

If this event were in the other way where a person of American origin committed this unspeakable tragedy on a foreign nation's University, the public outcry would be to demand for the USA to kneel and apologize to the whole world for one of "it's own".

your logic is flawed. if an american goes to S.korea and starts killing ppl, they are doing it in the name of insanity, not in the name of the US (unless they were spies or something). therefore it is not the fault of the US govn't. same logic applies to this situation, and add to that this Cho Seung-hui lived in the US for more than half his life.

[neilson]

your logic is flawed. if an american goes to S.korea and starts killing ppl, they are doing it in the name of insanity, not in the name of the US (unless they were spies or something). therefore it is not the fault of the US govn't. same logic applies to this situation, and add to that this Cho Seung-hui lived in the US for more than half his life.

In the court of public opinion, it would be spun as a means to bash on American ppl.

[Byrns]

Check out some "plays" that have been attributed to him as part of his English major...wow...this guy was messed up. Just like with past inidents like this...how did someone not see it coming?

http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/

Those are seriously screwed up... Based on his writing skill I can see him doing very poorly as an English major.

[bleeet]

Unfortunately the mainstream society will stereotype all the Asian.
:!:There probably will be a lot of "hate crimes" againist asians in the U.S. now

[ZenOps]

your logic is flawed. if an american goes to S.korea and starts killing ppl, they are doing it in the name of insanity, not in the name of the US (unless they were spies or something). therefore it is not the fault of the US govn't. same logic applies to this situation, and add to that this Cho Seung-hui lived in the US for more than half his life.

Ummm, thats exactly what the US did, they went into South Korea and actively started killing North Koreans indiscriminately. There are some 1 million landmines in Korea, most if not all of them placed by the US. It is not insanity, but cold blooded intent to kill when you place a mine as you never ever know who is actually going to step on it, friend, foe or just some dumb kid who wants to play football, or some shmuck who has to walk to work to make some money.

In its own way, the US has bred these terror zones, and I'm not totally surprised that it hasn't bit them in the butt more often.

[SergesPlace]

In the court of public opinion, it would be spun as a means to bash on American ppl.

Hey, could you please take a walk down to the Piggly Wiggly and get yourself a donut or something ? This isn't the Politics Forum

[gorf]

What a tragedy. Obviously done by a disturbed individual who needed help.

CTV.ca News Staff

The man identified as responsible for the deadliest shooting in U.S. history is being described as a disturbed young man who was referred for counselling.



The department's director of creative writing, Linda Roy, who had Cho Seung-hui in one of her classes, describes him as "troubled.''



Professor Carolyn Rude of the university's English department says Cho's writings were so disturbing that he was referred to the school's counselling service.



It's not clear whether he underwent any of the therapy recommended.



"There was some concern about him," Rude told The Associated Press. "Sometimes, in creative writing, people reveal things and you never know if it's creative or if they're describing things, if they're imagining things or just how real it might be. But we're all alert to not ignore things like this."



Cho, 23, was an undergraduate student in his senior year as an English major




He was a South Korean living in the U.S. as a resident alien. He had been in the United States since 1992 and held a green card signifying his status as a legal permanent U.S. resident, federal officials said.



As such, he was legally eligible to buy a handgun. A receipt found in Cho's backpack showed he had bought a Glock 9mm pistol in March.



His home address is listed in Centreville, Va., a suburb of Washington, D.C. University officials say he lived in a dormitory on the Virginia Tech campus, but could shed no light on his personality.



`He was a loner, and we're having difficulty finding information about him,'' said Virginia Tech spokesman Larry Hincker.



The Chicago Tribune reports that a note found in his dorm room and believed to have been written by Cho railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus.



Citing identified sources, the Tribune said Cho had recently shown troubling signs, including setting a fire in a dorm room.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070416/tech_shooting_070417/20070417?hub=TopStories

[Paranoidandroid]

Although it was ridiculous that they didn't cancel classes right after the first two deaths, it's understandable because nobody expected it to be more than an isolated incident. It could've happened at any other campus and this situation would've been handled the same.

On another note, the gunman appeared to be a 4chan member O_O
http://www.thestar.com/StarPM/article/204030

[konfusion666]

Let's not let nailson veer this any more off topic than usual.

actually, this thread is one big off-topic mess now... i vote for a lock

[Marlek]

"The tendency of the casual mind is to pick out or stumble upon a sample which supports or defies its prejudices, and then to make it the representative of a whole class."

-Walter Lippmann

[Lone_Prodigy]

If we stay on topic, what is there to talk about, besides offering our condolences to the victims and their friends and families?

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether the gunman played video games or not. I don't care if he was emotionally disturbed or needed counselling. Heck, if he was in line for a Nobel Prize I won't even care.

There are some things you can't justify no matter what. You can draw parallels and connections, but in the end it's just inexplicable.

For example, have you ever done something without thinking as a kid? Your parents or teacher asks you "why did you do that?" You don't respond because you don't know why. This is similar.

[ZenOps]

It is still on topic.

The guy obviously had some sort of grievance with his situation, whatever that may be. He obviously felt a certain lack of respect for his fellow classmates, and everyone is trying to determine what the factors were for him becoming so insane/hateful/indifferent to killing innocent people.

I'd hate to think it was indifference (like many soldiers who get used to the idea of killing someone at 100 yards just because hes in the targetsight.) I'd really, really like to prefer to believe that there was a preventable reason behind it.

[perplexed_one]

Ummm, thats exactly what the US did, they went into South Korea and actively started killing North Koreans indiscriminately. There are some 1 million landmines in Korea, most if not all of them placed by the US. It is not insanity, but cold blooded intent to kill when you place a mine as you never ever know who is actually going to step on it, friend, foe or just some dumb kid who wants to play football, or some shmuck who has to walk to work to make some money.

In its own way, the US has bred these terror zones, and I'm not totally surprised that it hasn't bit them in the butt more often.

if you read my post in context, i was talking about an INDIVIDUAL american, going to S. Korea, living there and one day snap into a killing machine. that has nothing to do with the US government. what the US govn't has done is another matter. you shouldnt be going into that kind of rhetoric, because it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

[neilson]

Hey, could you please take a walk down to the Piggly Wiggly and get yourself a donut or something ? This isn't the Politics Forum

It is what it is. Deal with it.

[SergesPlace]

If we stay on topic, what is there to talk about, besides offering our condolences to the victims and their friends and families?

Frankly, I couldn't care less whether the gunman played video games or not. I don't care if he was emotionally disturbed or needed counselling. Heck, if he was in line for a Nobel Prize I won't even care.

There are some things you can't justify no matter what. You can draw parallels and connections, but in the end it's just inexplicable.

For example, have you ever done something without thinking as a kid? Your parents or teacher asks you "why did you do that?" You don't respond because you don't know why. This is similar.
Well, i think we all know what's coming next and that is the role campus security played in all of this. They seem to be taking a big hit on this one but is it justified?

[Lone_Prodigy]

Well, i think we all know what's coming next and that is the role campus security played in all of this. They seem to be taking a big hit on this one but is it justified?

Yeah, that's usually the case. People will cry out for stricter gun laws, more counselling services, better security, metal detectors, dog-sniffers, etc. etc.

Look at post-9/11. Pilot's door always locked. Air marshals. More X-ray and metal detectors. People asked to remove jackets, shoes, and even unbuckle belts in some cases.

[ZenOps]

Yeah security really botched this one... Most highschools in the US have metal detectors now. Maybe they might let a laptop pass, but no more than a few pounds worth of solid metal.

How the guy got in with that much ammunition is just a complete lack of preparedness.

Most cities now have radiation detectors at all points of entry, to help find potential truck nukes. As big a concern as any.

[NDman]

How the guy got in with that much ammunition is just a complete lack of preparedness.

It's a university. You can't expect each university building to have metal detector and bomb sniffers and alike

[perplexed_one]

It's a university. You can't expect each university building to have metal detector and bomb sniffers and alike

next thing you know, you see a person with a grievance against a mall owner. he goes and bombs the mall. now you gotta put into detectors.
what is stopping a psycho or even a genuine terrorist from going into these public places and killing a lot of innocents?

sooner or later our society will be in full lockdown, and the security industry will be in boom.

[ZenOps]

It's a university. You can't expect each university building to have metal detector and bomb sniffers and alike

Why not? Every building in the downtown core has one. It should be mandatory like fire alarms at every entry/exit point.

If they setup these places with 1/100th the security precautions of a casino in Las Vegas, this would never happen. And to some at least, lives are a lot more important than money.

[SergesPlace]

It's a university. You can't expect each university building to have metal detector and bomb sniffers and alike

Especially one of that size. That place is massive!!

[majesus]

actually, this thread is one big off-topic mess now... i vote for a lock

If we stay on topic, what is there to talk about, besides offering our condolences to the victims and their friends and families?


Agreed. That is the whole point: to discuss, if one discussion introduces another topic so be it...

[konfusion666]

Why not? Every building in the downtown core has one.

in calgary maybe... not even in T.O.

[majesus]

Why not? Every building in the downtown core has one. It should be mandatory like fire alarms at every entry/exit point.

If they setup these places with 1/100th the security precautions of a casino in Las Vegas, this would never happen. And to some at least, lives are a lot more important than money.

It's ridiculous, every time I have to go into a place, I got to get searched? I understand this is a tragedy. It is a very sad story...
But we should restrict ourselves so much. There are crazy people in this world, that's life. We shouldn't blame, ban games, put more and more security and accuse others.

He lost it, so now we all have to get searched when we go downtown? In a sense, the world is becoming more and more restrictive. Air travel feels like you are a sheep being herded, when you go to a NHL game, concert, you get searched. Most of the time you aren't even allowed to bring WATER! Last month I saw a mom with her kids at the Canucks game, she was having the Bits&Bytes she brang from home confiscated at the entry point. WHY?

[NDman]

Why not? Every building in the downtown core has one. It should be mandatory like fire alarms at every entry/exit point.

If they setup these places with 1/100th the security precautions of a casino in Las Vegas, this would never happen. And to some at least, lives are a lot more important than money.
The flow of people is massive on campus. Students move mostly in clusters because of classes. It's not uncommon that students go to different buildings for different classes. That alone requires massive resources (labour and machinery) that is absolutely not feasible for such settings. When was the last time you see a metal detector at the entrace of a Las Vegas casino? Comparing that to LV is silly anyway.

We don't live in Utopia. That "if" game means nothing when you ignore every other factors that exist in real life

[abu_sme]

I think that this will probably lead to:

1) More heavily armed security guards at ALL campuses. The guys at most campuses, even in the U.S. carry taser guns at most. When I visited them some they just had pepper spray. Most public high schools have RCMP/local police permanently stationed there.
2) Searches of students in the next few weeks... which will become futile and will be given up shortly.

Metal detectors on campus just isn't feasible, they are so massive and spread out. At least in high schools it was easy to weed things out, you know, no knives etc. At my campus there are student who carry massive knives around with them all the time. I know one person who always has a big 12 inch knife with her when she goes to class...of course she is a culinary arts student:cheesygri

[Byrns]

in calgary maybe... not even in T.O.

Definitely not in Calgary. Very few buildings here have these.

[stevethewheel]

Well, i think we all know what's coming next and that is the role campus security played in all of this. They seem to be taking a big hit on this one but is it justified?

There might have been 'some' more security, but it is unlikely you can stop an individual nutjob without significant investment (and higher tuition fees). For instance he might have hit a bar where his g/f hangs out, which politically might advantage the university, but in the end could have been as many casualties.

If the university had done some lockdown at 8am then there would have been mobs of kids hanging around outside the buildings, having arrived by car or bus and not able to get in so just chilling in knots. Plus once he was already in the dorm, locking down would have meant different victims.

They could have reacted better but there is likely a political storm brewing for those guys - I don't think they deserve that.

I feel for the students and the families.

[Acuratl]

Definitely not in Calgary. Very few buildings here have these.

NO BUILDINGS here have detectors....you cant get guns easily here

[Beradon]

The US is an extremely violent culture, they rain death all over the world. Grow up. The US isn't any more violent than other countries that have their own violent subculture.
The US rains justice and peace all over the world. Swallow this fact and get over it.

How many people have been killed in Iraq/Afghanistan, this happens everyday day there.Look at the causes behind the deaths. The one in Virginia Tech was caused by a extremly disturbed individiual. The others in Iraq & Afghanistan was caused by sectarian and idealogical conflicts.


Apparently someone he knew got hurt in the incident. I think he'll be doing his show today from Virginia.It seemed like he was about to call Cheney and demand a full fledged war on Asia for killing "our kids".I'm still skeptical about this Riviera rant. If you have one provide a link to it.

[farooq7]

Metal detectors doesn't do much. This guy would go right through the metal detector and start shooting anyways....

[Colargo]

For anyone who advocates increased security to try and prevent another event such as this from happening again, I would argue its pretty much impossible short of putting each person in an isolation room and scanning them before letting them into a building.

Even if you could place armed security at every door at every important building, what's to stop a person who doesn't care about dying to just pull out a gun and start shooting security personal before they can react and then go on into a building and shooting more people?

It may be possible to stop a few potential shooters who are interested in living after committing their crime, but for anyone who doesn't care about their own lives anymore, its pretty much impossible to stop them.

The fact is, is that there is NOTHING anyone can do to prevent such incidents from happening in the future. You can only hope to lessen the frequency of such events.

In my opinion, the US has already screwed itself over to an extent where its extremely difficult to reverse things when it comes to guns. With hundreds of millions of guns already in circulation, even if the government closed down every gunshop in the US today, you would never be able to get rid of all the ones already out on the streets anyways. Gun control is absolutely useless for them now. Only education and help for those individuals who need it may lessen such shootings, but there will always be a certain percentage of people who will be unreachable no matter how hard you try. Hence you can bet that similar shootings will be sure to happen in the future. You just hope there will be a plan of action ready to stop these individuals before they kill too many people.

[Colargo]

Grow up. The US isn't any more violent than other countries that have their own violent subculture.

I think if you compare the US to other countries in the world with similar wealth, you would find that the US is a much MORE violent country than most if not all of them.

[abu_sme]

For anyone who advocates increased security to try and prevent another event such as this from happening again, I would argue its pretty much impossible short of putting each person in an isolation room and scanning them before letting them into a building.

Even if you could place armed security at every door at every important building, what's to stop a person who doesn't care about dying to just pull out a gun and start shooting security personal before they can react and then go on into a building and shooting more people?

It may be possible to stop a few potential shooters who are interested in living after committing their crime, but for anyone who doesn't care about their own lives anymore, its pretty much impossible to stop them.

The fact is, is that there is NOTHING anyone can do to prevent such incidents from happening in the future. You can only hope to lessen the frequency of such events.

In my opinion, the US has already screwed itself over to an extent where its extremely difficult to reverse things when it comes to guns. With hundreds of millions of guns already in circulation, even if the government closed down every gunshop in the US today, you would never be able to get rid of all the ones already out on the streets anyways. Gun control is absolutely useless for them now. Only education and help for those individuals who need it may lessen such shootings, but there will always be a certain percentage of people who will be unreachable no matter how hard you try. Hence you can bet that similar shootings will be sure to happen in the future. You just hope there will be a plan of action ready to stop these individuals before they kill too many people.
I'm not aruging that armed guards would prevent it from happening, but if they can shoot a gun man dead after he has fired a few shots, you are in a much better position.

[BadDrafter]

Not only a holocaust survivor but also a hero. He sacrificed himself to save some of his students.

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8OIFQKG0&show_article=1

I cried when I read about him. What a way to end an incredible life.

Reminds me of the ending of the movie "Layer Cake". Overcoming all odds and getting taken down by a two bit punk at the end.

[Colargo]

I'm not aruging that armed guards would prevent it from happening, but if they can shoot a gun man dead after he has fired a few shots, you are in a much better position.

You'd have to have alot of armed guards though, just in case. If its just two guys guarding a doorway, a gunman could just pull out a gun suddenly and kill or incapacitate them before the guards knew what hit them. You'd definitely need plenty of backup, especially if the shooter is carrying an assualt rifle.

Its pretty cost prohibitative to hire so many people. I'm more in favour with letting police handle the situation with arriving as fast as possible to the scene and going in ASAP to get the gunman if possible.

[perplexed_one]

I cried when I read about him. What a way to end an incredible life.

Reminds me of the ending of the movie "Layer Cake". Overcoming all odds and getting taken down by a two bit punk at the end.

i watched some movie based on a real event, ie a doctor striving to escape totalitarian Cambodia in the reign of the Khmer, Pol Pot. a respected pratice in the capital and a loving family, Pol Pot arrives and sends intellectuals to "reeducation camps" and the doctor is stripped of everything he loves. he uses his cunning to escape thru enemy lines, jungle into south vietnam, where he flees to the US. arriving as an old man in LA, he is beaten up by a bunch of punks for his money.

[ZenOps]

It's ridiculous, every time I have to go into a place, I got to get searched? I understand this is a tragedy. It is a very sad story...
But we should restrict ourselves so much. There are crazy people in this world, that's life. We shouldn't blame, ban games, put more and more security and accuse others.

He lost it, so now we all have to get searched when we go downtown? In a sense, the world is becoming more and more restrictive. Air travel feels like you are a sheep being herded, when you go to a NHL game, concert, you get searched. Most of the time you aren't even allowed to bring WATER! Last month I saw a mom with her kids at the Canucks game, she was having the Bits&Bytes she brang from home confiscated at the entry point. WHY?

I'm talking about passive metal detectors people, not body cavity searches. Every downtown building worth a bean has them installed at every entrance, just like every building has a few thousand smoke detectors (usually a dozen or more per floor as required by law.)

Some elevators have them built in nowadays, it gives a warning to security when more than a few kilograms or anything large enough to be a gun worth of metal passes through. I don't think anyone builds an elevator anymore that does not at least have a video surveillance system built in.

Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they are not there. Calgary is especially terror resistant because it has a lot of oil HQ's.

Some even have the much more expensive chemical sniffers that will detect certain common explosives. Although most just hire a weekly sweep with an undercover sniffer dog.

[abu_sme]

You'd have to have alot of armed guards though, just in case. If its just two guys guarding a doorway, a gunman could just pull out a gun suddenly and kill or incapacitate them before the guards knew what hit them. You'd definitely need plenty of backup, especially if the shooter is carrying an assualt rifle.

Its pretty cost prohibitative to hire so many people. I'm more in favour with letting police handle the situation with arriving as fast as possible to the scene and going in ASAP to get the gunman if possible.

I am not picutring armed guard at every door. I am just saying that if you arm your current security guards and train them to shoot to kill, that they MIGHT be able to take down a gunman. Most highschools have a RCMP officer on duty at the school. They aren't a guard per say, watching all of the students, but they can act as a first responder who is already in the building.

[ZenOps]

Metal detectors doesn't do much. This guy would go right through the metal detector and start shooting anyways....


This isn't "The matrix", the alarms are all silent, the only people who know that an alarm has been tripped are building security and maybe the local police force. There is no big booth that lights up and goes *bing* when you walk through it. Even if it was, this is reality not hollywood, you would be shot dead (or in Canada maybe tazered or foamed) probably 1 second after you shot your first round.

If you trip the alarm by perhaps carrying over 5 kilograms of metal, and you are on camera being shown as not being a delivery guy, then its on the building security to keep an eye on you at the very least with a camera at all times, or an actual undercover escort until you leave the building.

This is true of most non-public HQ's. The public areas such as malls are different. Most HQ's now have an employee magnetic swipe card system as well as a passive detector before you enter the elevator.

BTW: The condo complex I'm in has a common central fire detection system. If one smoke alarm goes off, it alerts the complex admin to the door number so that he can phone or come over and check to see if its on fire or just a burnt meal (mine was a burnt meal, and damn was I surprised when the guy knocked on my door and asked me about it) Hopefully preventing everyone else from catching on fire. Knowledge is KEY, disasters can be prevented or greatly reduced with proper detection.

[abu_sme]

This isn't "The matrix", the alarms are all silent, the only people who know that an alarm has been tripped are building security and maybe the local police force. There is no big booth that lights up and goes *bing* when you walk through it.

If you trip the alarm by perhaps carrying over 5 kilograms of metal, and you are on camera being shown as not being a delivery guy, then its on the building security to keep an eye on you at the very least with a camera at all times, or an actual undercover escort until you leave the building.

This is true of most non-public HQ's. The public areas such as malls are different.

At my college students routinely carry around more than 5 KG of metal. All of those kitchen knives, pipe wrenches and propane torches.

The amount of false alarms would render the entire system useless as it would be ignored by security people. Besides, so what if they can detect it? He's going to open fire regardless.

I don't know if you understand the magnitude of the problem either. My campus has 20 different buildings, each of whic has dozens of entrances and exits. Is is technically feasilbe to be monitoring every single door and everytime a beep goes off in a security booth to investigate? Hell, half the people are not in buildings between classes.

[Colargo]

I am not picutring armed guard at every door. I am just saying that if you arm your current security guards and train them to shoot to kill, that they MIGHT be able to take down a gunman. Most highschools have a RCMP officer on duty at the school. They aren't a guard per say, watching all of the students, but they can act as a first responder who is already in the building.

I'm not too crazy about the idea of arming regular security guards even if they are trained to handle firearms. Does this mean that every guard that's protecting a significant public area should get guns too? Like if a guy starts shooting in a mall does that mean mall security should get guns as well?

That aside, the gunman has the element of surprise and he could potentially take down the guard(s) before they knew what was happening. Or if the gunman is carrying an AK-47, would security even have much of a chance?

[masterhapposai]

There might have been 'some' more security, but it is unlikely you can stop an individual nutjob without significant investment (and higher tuition fees). For instance he might have hit a bar where his g/f hangs out, which politically might advantage the university, but in the end could have been as many casualties.

If the university had done some lockdown at 8am then there would have been mobs of kids hanging around outside the buildings, having arrived by car or bus and not able to get in so just chilling in knots. Plus once he was already in the dorm, locking down would have meant different victims.

They could have reacted better but there is likely a political storm brewing for those guys - I don't think they deserve that.

I feel for the students and the families.


you are seriously kidding yourself if you don't think they deserve some what they're getting.

they should all be fired, no question

How often do people get killed... ANYWHERE? They will lock down a whole section of downtown Toronto if someone dies in a public+non-violent area.

The reaction to do nothing as if "someone gets killed every day, meh", was callous and resulted in 30 deaths+.

Had they at least swarmed the building with SWAT from all sides, the killer would at best only kill 1 more clip worth of people, not 30+. He wouldn't have the time to wander, or reload. SWAT would communicate his position after his first shot and he would shortly be dead.

He could go somewhere else, but his intention was to do it all that day. They're all like that. They don't stop, and once they start they're off to their suicide while trying to take down as many as possible.

If you can't see this pattern, that's fine, because you don't belong in security. But, these guys are in it, and they acted as if the school mascot got stolen, not as if someone(TWO people!) got brutally murdered in day light.

The protocol to call SWAT instantly at the sign of a school shooting should be placed in all schools.

[Anessa]

"There is only one person accountable for what happened yesterday, and that is the gunman. It's not the university's fault. He was a student here, and he would have been here even if we were in lockdown. It is us humans who broke the tacit rule not to hurt each other." Teresa McCall, nutriton student from Virginia Tech

[bly]

Finally sat through an hour of CNN and I am very sad that this happened. My prayers are with the families and friends of the victims...

[masterhapposai]

"There is only one person accountable for what happened yesterday, and that is the gunman. It's not the university's fault. He was a student here, and he would have been here even if we were in lockdown. It is us humans who broke the tacit rule not to hurt each other." Teresa McCall, nutriton student from Virginia Tech

negative

If SWAT was called in immediately, he would not be there for very long and also, all students would've been sent home immediately. As I said, once these types start, they don't stop, they will not go home and wait, or snipe people. It's not in their nature.

Only a soldier snipes. These are just messed up emo kids with a gun.

[SergesPlace]

"There is only one person accountable for what happened yesterday, and that is the gunman. It's not the university's fault. He was a student here, and he would have been here even if we were in lockdown. It is us humans who broke the tacit rule not to hurt each other." Teresa McCall, nutriton student from Virginia Tech

It's going to be very very difficult for the families to resolve the fact that it took over 2hrs for the first emails to go out advising the students that there was a shooting and the gunman was on the loose. That's incredibly difficult to swallow.

[Peckerwood]

I think if you compare the US to other countries in the world with similar wealth, you would find that the US is a much MORE violent country than most if not all of them.
Scotland was listed by the UN as being the most violent Nation of all the western world.

The UK violent crime rate for 2005 was 2013/100,000 population (Home Office Stats)
The US violent crime rate is at 780/100,000 population (FBI Justice Stats)

The US has been going down in Violent crime even though the numbers of guns and gun ownership has been steadily rising

Just ten years ago the UK violent crime rate was only 440/100,000 population for 1995

[MasterXan]

lol i just watched the news on the Chinese channel and yesterday, they were one of the first to say that the killer was a Chinese National and they talked about how it's going to be hard for Chinese people to get a student VISA to the U.S in the future.

Today, once we found out it was Korean killer, they twisted the issue around by talking about whether it's going to be hard for Asians to get a student VISA in the future, as if they expected we would totally forget what they said yesterday.

I mean, they were wrong, admit it! wtf?

[Txiasaeia]

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/nation_view.asp?newsIdx=1140&categoryCode=113

https://www.koreaherald.co.kr/SITE/data/html_dir/2007/04/18/200704180037.asp

Two English-speaking newspapers here in Korea and their articles on the massacre.

[jimi]

negative

If SWAT was called in immediately, he would not be there for very long and also, all students would've been sent home immediately. As I said, once these types start, they don't stop, they will not go home and wait, or snipe people. It's not in their nature.

Only a soldier snipes. These are just messed up emo kids with a gun.

You really think they'd be able to send the upwards of 10,000 students coming in for morning classes home immediately?
How do you propose a SWAT team surround a university campus? It's just not possible. Besides, they thought the killer had already left the premises after the first shooting and couldn't predict he'd go on a killing spree on the other side of campus.
Nobody can place the blame on the university. There's no way to predict something like this.

[masterhapposai]

You really think they'd be able to send the upwards of 10,000 students coming in for morning classes home immediately?
How do you propose a SWAT team surround a university campus? It's just not possible. Besides, they thought the killer had already left the premises after the first shooting and couldn't predict he'd go on a killing spree on the other side of campus.
Nobody can place the blame on the university. There's no way to predict something like this.

Killings don't happen every day, therefore treat it as a real emergency.

You only send an email out 2 hours late when an elevator or door isn't working, not when real people die in their room.

SWAT doesn't have to surround anything, they would help the students by escorting them out. Of course, there would be a combined perimeter of the entire place with a squad car at least every few hundred yards. The SWAT would be used just as they always are to swoop in on gunfire sounds.

Had they been anywhere near the University, even 2 minutes away, the kid wouldn't get more than a clip off. He rampaged for such a long time, he had the time to attempt to get into several classrooms, fire full clips making large amounts of noise, reload, attempt to get inside again, then walk down a hall. There's no doubt in this timeframe alone that police or SWAT could isolate the section and be ready to fire down the hall.

It would result in a hostage situation and/or immediate suicide/death of the killer and no more than a clip or two worth of students fired at.

Remember: This isn't the movies, this crazy kid was in bloodlust and wouldn't be able to see straight. He wouldn't throw down a smoke bomb and hide in cover the whole day and wait overnight to kill when classes resume.

He did have 2 hours to think about his next action, I assume after the first 2 killings he was in shock and couldn't cope with it, and got numbed and only wanted to take out as much as he could before going himself. Like I said they're basket cases and have snapped, once they start they keep going.

[Bazooka Joe]

Killings don't happen every day, therefore treat it as a real emergency.

You only send an email out 2 hours late when an elevator or door isn't working, not when real people die in their room.

SWAT doesn't have to surround anything, they would help the students by escorting them out. Of course, there would be a combined perimeter of the entire place with a squad car at least every few hundred yards. The SWAT would be used just as they always are to swoop in on gunfire sounds.

Had they been anywhere near the University, even 2 minutes away, the kid wouldn't get more than a clip off. He rampaged for such a long time, he had the time to attempt to get into several classrooms, fire full clips making large amounts of noise, reload, attempt to get inside again, then walk down a hall. There's no doubt in this timeframe alone that police or SWAT could isolate the section and be ready to fire down the hall.

It would result in a hostage situation and/or immediate suicide/death of the killer and no more than a clip or two worth of students fired at.

I don't know how many SWAT guys your town of 35000 has, but mine has none. Definitely less than would be required to completely cover a campus perimeter. Me thinks you've seen too many movies...

Can you imagine what having a few hundred SWAT people on 24 hour call would cost? A municipality that small could never afford it. Well, maybe if you eliminated roadwork, snow removal, garbage pickup, etc...

[masterhapposai]

I don't know how many SWAT guys your town of 35000 has, but mine has none. Definitely less than would be required to completely cover a campus perimeter. Me thinks you've seen too many movies...

Can you imagine what having a few hundred SWAT people on 24 hour call would cost? A municipality that small could never afford it. Well, maybe if you eliminated roadwork, snow removal, garbage pickup, etc...


I think you've seen too many movies.

No SWAT team consists of a few hundred, none. And I didn't say that in my post either.

In fact, I gave a pretty quick estimation of what's required based on the police force size of a small city. 1 squad car per hundred meters is ample and if they can't handle that, they don't have enough policemen plain and simple. How do they enforce the law at all in bars and I'm sure the tons of clubs they have to support the student life?

Fact is, all they need is the regular police force, and the "1!!!!!!!!!oneoneoene" SWAT team which consists of ...POLICE which train infrequently and stand in as SWAT (as most cities do it), would only need to hear the gunshot and be told from one of the squad cars to close in on the position.

Much better than all these kids running in panic with no help!

I'm not sure why people are so apt to protect the school. It failed miserably just like all schools do, whether it's OSAP, regulations, rules, grading, or violence/security.

[stealth]

"There is only one person accountable for what happened yesterday, and that is the gunman. It's not the university's fault. He was a student here, and he would have been here even if we were in lockdown. It is us humans who broke the tacit rule not to hurt each other." Teresa McCall, nutriton student from Virginia Tech

Nonetheless...in a few weeks, watch the fingers get pointed and the lawyers come out from under their rocks.

[UrbanPoet]

I think you've seen too many movies.

No SWAT team consists of a few hundred, none. And I didn't say that in my post either.

Even Toronto (new york of Canada?) swat team only 70 members.
Virginia tech tragedy required the help of outside emergency services.

[masterhapposai]

Nonetheless...in a few weeks, watch the fingers get pointed and the lawyers come out from under their rocks.

I give it no more than a few days.

Remember, those parents lost their kids, many kids. There was potential to avoid some of the loss.

Even Toronto (new york of Canada?) swat team only 70 members.
Virginia tech tragedy required the help of outside emergency services.

I was expecting no more than 5-10 members, and that's all what would be needed. Every SWAT movement is supplemented by a police force.

If the students were informed immediately, they would bring in TV crews, who would force the lazy ass police to come in full force instead of quietly vanishing after the first 2 deaths.

[civ@uw]

"There is only one person accountable for what happened yesterday, and that is the gunman. It's not the university's fault. He was a student here, and he would have been here even if we were in lockdown. It is us humans who broke the tacit rule not to hurt each other." Teresa McCall, nutriton student from Virginia Tech

http://anonymailer.info/dustinland.gif

[rockthecasbah]

This page is continuously updated with new and interesting/developing information:

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/17/breaking-abc-news-ids-gunman-as-seung-hui-cho/

I suggest y'all take a gander. There's stuff there that isn't even yet reported on CNN plus it delves into the whole was this guy even remotely linked to Emily, the girl he first killed.

ALSO, NEILSON! You STILL haven't provided any evidence or facts to backup your continuous statements on the double standard, as I requested on page 19 (http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4967561&postcount=280). If you're so adamant on this double standard that's being witnessed today in the media, why are you conveniently ignoring the question yet still continuing on rambling about your currently unsubstantiated claims?

You know, it's not about different ideologies and whatnot. I've had a lot of insightful and enlightening discussions with people of differing ideology than me. But it seems more and more like you're just some silly charlatan talking out of your @ss, in attempt to stir up trouble. Disappointing.

[ZenOps]

Well, I guess we will know his reasons soon - Supposedly he wrote a very long rant that has not been released to the public yet.

Y'know thats a lot of ammo that he had to have carried in to kill 33 people, injure others and destroy some doors along the way. Strange that he chose guns instead of some other explosive device(s).

[abu_sme]

Well, I guess we will know his reasons soon - Supposedly he wrote a very long rant that has not been released to the public yet.

Y'know thats a lot of ammo that he had to have carried in to kill 33 people, injure others and destroy some doors along the way. Strange that he chose guns instead of some other explosive device(s).

I find it amazing he was able to kill so many people with a 9mm and .22 pistol. I mean, the guys at colombine had tech 9s and there were two of them and they only managed to kill half as many people.

Guess he was a good shot.

The gun was acquired legally, which is a very interesting twist.

[ZenOps]

I heard a report where there were somewhere around 3 wounds per person, and 20 wounded. Including the doors that he supposedly tried to shoot through, I'm counting upwards of 100 to 120 rounds.

Even with a small calibre weapon thats pretty heavy, although supposedly he did stopoff in the middle of the rampage to reload at his dorm < Which just begs the question, where the heck was security during all of this.

[civ@uw]

This page is continuously updated with new and interesting/developing information:

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/17/breaking-abc-news-ids-gunman-as-seung-hui-cho/

I suggest y'all take a gander. There's stuff there that isn't even yet reported on CNN plus it delves into the whole was this guy even remotely linked to Emily, the girl he first killed.

People jumped onto that rumor/theory so quickly. Judging by Cho's personality, it seems unlikely that he had a girlfriend.

It was distasteful the way people were tarnishing the girl's reputation.

[majesus]

I'm talking about passive metal detectors people, not body cavity searches. Every downtown building worth a bean has them installed at every entrance, just like every building has a few thousand smoke detectors (usually a dozen or more per floor as required by law.)

Some elevators have them built in nowadays, it gives a warning to security when more than a few kilograms or anything large enough to be a gun worth of metal passes through. I don't think anyone builds an elevator anymore that does not at least have a video surveillance system built in.

Just because you don't see them doesn't mean they are not there. Calgary is especially terror resistant because it has a lot of oil HQ's.

Some even have the much more expensive chemical sniffers that will detect certain common explosives. Although most just hire a weekly sweep with an undercover sniffer dog.

I see what you mean. You have a strong point ZenOps.

However, I dunno if I am up for change. I don't think it is as easy as just install passive detectors. What if I have my bike lock on me and it trips... Then I am going to get hasseled?

It's just a point... I'm not trying to be difficult on you, just a case in question in our discussion.

[Peckerwood]

I find it amazing he was able to kill so many people with a 9mm and .22 pistol. I mean, the guys at colombine had tech 9s and there were two of them and they only managed to kill half as many people.

Guess he was a good shot.

The gun was acquired legally, which is a very interesting twist.
There isnt enough information as to what method he chose to hold the pistol or control it's operation. If I chose to shoot with a single hand and fire at a stable target, I can personally keep the rounds in the ten ring at 10 yards at about 1 shot every 2 seconds...but that is on a non-moving target.

With a moving target my time twindles down to about 1 hit every 4 or 5 seconds and maybe 1 in ten shots will actually get close to the ten ring.

Speed the target up to a running velocity and now I am missing stuff completely...to which I prefer to bring in my other hand and stabilise the pistol so as to maintain a consistant line of fire on the target.

To further complicate matters, up the adrenaline count, and then have me moving around while everyone else is running around etc...the injuries go up as moderate hits do little damage...they slow people down giving the shooter a better chance to lay in the fatal hits.

With a semiauto pistol in 9mm depending on the load and the bullet chosen, the damage could be high or minimal. Using FMJ bullets the damage will be minimal unless a CNS or heart/lung shot is made. With hollowpoints the damage potential goes up by not by a great deal...the non lethal hits will slow down the target faster than the FMJ's would, until a direct CNS/heart/lung shot is made.

Unlike the Columbine shooting, the guns here are not full auto from what we have been told...if they were then there would have been a great deal more misses as the gun tends to gyrate a great deal and thusly becomes difficult to control for aimed fire.

Contrary to popular belief...full auto is not very effective...except of course, to suppress potential enemy fire.

[Acuratl]

Look if you can walk into a store and buy a Glock just like you can buy a Xbox here in Canada, like you can in the states you will have bloodshed like this...

[UrbanPoet]

mental health should be taken seriously.....
Everyone seemed to know he was so messed up. But i guess you cant force counselling rehab for everyone.

[masterhapposai]

http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/17/breaking-abc-news-ids-gunman-as-seung-hui-cho/


"I guess that solves the mystery of whether it was premeditated. More from the Tribune: “After leaving the scene of the first shooting, Cho called a threat to authorities, saying there was a bomb at Norris Hall, about half a mile away from Johnston.” There was a bomb threat called in immediately after two people had been murdered, and they still didn’t lock down the campus?"


wow guys, I must be psychic here that the security did a terrible job.. , or oh wait, we have overly passive people in this thread that will defend anyone no matter what even when presented with sound logical basis that the security was inept

[hardcandy1911]

He should of gone to war, at least then he can show off his skills and get away with murder.

[Colargo]

Contrary to popular belief...full auto is not very effective...except of course, to suppress potential enemy fire.

Full auto IS effective at close range IE inside buildings. In the hallways and classrooms of a school, its pretty difficult to miss at such a range. With a full auto weapon your aim doesn't have to be great to hit someone at 10,20,30 metres.

Also, newer full auto weapons are increasingly having less recoil in them so despite firing in full auto or in bursts, newer submachineguns and assault rifles can be fired accurately at greater distances.

For this person, perhaps its a combination of being a good shot and maybe he cornered some of the people he killed with little chance to get out of the way of bullets. At Columbine, didn't a number of the people die in a library where they were trapped? The same may have happened here perhaps.

[abu_sme]

There have been reports that the students were locked in the school by the perp though. I heard reports that some doors were chained shut. If you look at the search warrant they recovered a few padlocks from his place.

It's amazing how much the internet allows you to investigate on this though. Oddly enough one of the people killed was only one degree seperated on my facebook. I'm not going to reveal names, but it is kinda surreal, especially since she had made a posting in the morning before the whole incident took place.

The best thread I have found is in the somethingawful.com forums which has people posting from start to finish, people who were not only going to virginia Tech, but people who were locked in their dorm rooms, bitching about it, to realizing what transpired, all the way down top people who were in fact in the building. There are already a few videos I have seen that aren't posted on any of the sites.

[Peckerwood]

Look if you can walk into a store and buy a Glock just like you can buy a Xbox here in Canada, like you can in the states you will have bloodshed like this...
Then obviously you should have no difficulty in showing how many shootings and murders have happened at gunshows where anyone with appropriate ID can buy a gun over the counter etc
Full auto IS effective at close range IE inside buildings. In the hallways and classrooms of a school, its pretty difficult to miss at such a range. With a full auto weapon your aim doesn't have to be great to hit someone at 10,20,30 metres.
It is plainly obvious that you have never fired a single thing in Selectfire yet.

I have...I live right next to Alaska and make the trip often to visit friends and enjoy the time for full auto shoots of various types of firearms.

First point...any and all Assault rifle classes of weapons in full auto fire are difficult to print groups in sustained fire at ranges over 15 yards. While you can maintain a general bead on a target while in a solid standing position, your target will still look like it got hit with a sawed off shotgun using #6 shot. For this reason alone many soldiers keep their Assault rifles on the SemiAuto selection...and this is also why the US has switched all of their standard issue M16 rifles over to 3 shot burst instead of FullAuto for their last position on the selector switch. Cause after three shots the gun past 15 yards will tend to miss like any assault rifle...why waste ammo.

Second point...Most subguns today are still openbolt in operation because of the reliability factor in ammunition as well in negative conditions firing. For this reason the openbolt system will be innacurate even on the first shot past 15 yards unless the shooter has prior experience and is well trained on how to effectively control an openbolt system.

For closed bolt systems the gun will still gyrate to a point of difficulty for maintenance of a cone of fire on a target past the 15 yard mark...keep in mind that many subguns, while they shoot pistol ammunition, they are still reduced in size and therefore the gyration will have a greater effect on a smaller weapon.

The smaller the gun gets for the same caliber, the greater the effect of recoil will be on the system...Even with the P90 that uses such a lighter bullet with less recoil, I have seen the same peppering of a target at only 10 yards...with a few misses added of course...all during sustained full auto fire and subsequent emptying of a 50 rd magazine
Also, newer full auto weapons are increasingly having less recoil in them so despite firing in full auto or in bursts, newer submachineguns and assault rifles can be fired accurately at greater distances.
This is a fallacy

While it is true that many newer assault rifles and submachine guns are less in recoil, they are still innaccurate in sustained fullauto fire...firing in semi mode or in burst mode is the preffered method simply because it assists in getting more hits compared to any form of fullauto fire. Also, as cartridges decrease in size, so too did the size and overall weight of the weapon being designed...hence the recoil while it may be lighter, will still have a demonstrable effect on the gun's movement.

Also to add, the factors that make a firearm accurate are also the very same factors that make it unreliable in the field of battle...hence for an assault rifle or submachine gun to be reliable, it will lose inherent accuracy in favour of loose tolerances and increased reliability in feeding and loading...a gun that doesnt fire is just a stick...and a stick is of no use to any soldier in the field.

There is a major difference between the Semiauto civilian AR15 and the military Select-fire M16...one is exceptionally accurate but not very reliable...and the other is reliable but generally only accurate out to 250 yards while shooting from a prone rested position...and by accurate I mean able to hit a body size target...and not nessecarily in the centre at all.
For this person, perhaps its a combination of being a good shot and maybe he cornered some of the people he killed with little chance to get out of the way of bullets. At Columbine, didn't a number of the people die in a library where they were trapped? The same may have happened here perhaps.
In this point I would have to agree

[masterhapposai]

the "Ismail Ax" inscription is getting huge play on other sites and blogs. he had that inscription on his arm

and many schools were guarded as if it there's something greater than copycat shootings about to happen

this thread will quickly hit the political forum!

[Peckerwood]

Does anyone have any clues as to it's meaning yet? Perhaps just a nickname etc?

[canabiz]

Does anyone have any clues as to it's meaning yet? Perhaps just a nickname etc?

From what i read on the 'Net, it seems like that is his XBox ID, according to another gamer.

I don't play games so I don't know what's going on but I wouldn't be surprised if this loner was playing games a lot.

[masterhapposai]

Does anyone have any clues as to it's meaning yet? Perhaps just a nickname etc?

people have noted that it's entirely the middle eastern way of spelling it, not the english


some guy posted:
“Ismail” is the anglized Arabic spelling.

There is a story about Ismail and an ax in the Q’uran.

In the story, Ismail was the son of Ibrahim.

Ibrahim made stone figures and as a boy, Ismail would play around the figures his father sculpted, ride on then, etc.

One day, Ismail saw his father’s carvings in the temple and saw men bowing to them and offereing them food and drink.

Ismail thought it ridiculous that these men were doing this with “toys”.

His father explained to him that the statues he carved were gods.

Ismail didn’t buy it.

Finally one day Ismail watched the statues in the temple, waiting for them to eat the offered food, drink the offered drink.

When they didn’t, he destroyed the idols using an ax.


and

http://www.redstate.com/blogs/nathan_nelson/2007/apr/17/call_him_ismails_ax

Well, perhaps he was Ismail's ax, cutting down the Pagans - the "rich kids" who were engaging in "debauchery" and who were being indoctrinated by "deceitful charlatans"?

and

http://bangkokker.blogspot.com/2007/04/meaning-of-ismail-ax.html

Merriam Webster:
"AX: a cutting tool that consists of a heavy edged head fixed to a handle

Variant form: Axe"

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ax


It really is all connected, but may mean nothing.

[masterhapposai]

From what i read on the 'Net, it seems like that is his XBox ID, according to another gamer.

I don't play games so I don't know what's going on but I wouldn't be surprised if this loner was playing games a lot.

when's the last time though a gamer came up to you and said "you sir are a charlatan and debaucher!"

[Colargo]

First point...any and all Assault rifle classes of weapons in full auto fire are difficult to print groups in sustained fire at ranges over 15 yards. While you can maintain a general bead on a target while in a solid standing position, your target will still look like it got hit with a sawed off shotgun using #6 shot. For this reason alone many soldiers keep their Assault rifles on the SemiAuto selection...and this is also why the US has switched all of their standard issue M16 rifles over to 3 shot burst instead of FullAuto for their last position on the selector switch. Cause after three shots the gun past 15 yards will tend to miss like any assault rifle...why waste ammo.

I'm not talking about hitting a paper target in full-auto. I'm talking about hitting a person with a bullet or two at close range which you can definitely do at 10,20,30+ meters in the confines of a building. At 15 yards (13 metres) you can definitely hit a person on full-auto in a hallway or classroom, especially if you're crouching. If someone's running down a hallway that's only a few metres in width, how you can you not hit someone with a burst of bullets, unless you're a truely terrible shot. The same with inside a classroom, if you simply put the SMG or rifle to your shoulder, aim and shoot, how can you possibly miss, full-auto or not?

Second point...Most subguns today are still openbolt in operation because of the reliability factor in ammunition as well in negative conditions firing. For this reason the openbolt system will be innacurate even on the first shot past 15 yards unless the shooter has prior experience and is well trained on how to effectively control an openbolt system.

For closed bolt systems the gun will still gyrate to a point of difficulty for maintenance of a cone of fire on a target past the 15 yard mark...keep in mind that many subguns, while they shoot pistol ammunition, they are still reduced in size and therefore the gyration will have a greater effect on a smaller weapon.

Umm have you heard of the MP5? One of the most reliable and accurate SMGs in the world and used by special forces and police forces around the world? I'm pretty sure they're accurate outside of 15 yards.


While it is true that many newer assault rifles and submachine guns are less in recoil, they are still innaccurate in sustained fullauto fire...firing in semi mode or in burst mode is the preffered method simply because it assists in getting more hits compared to any form of fullauto fire. Also, as cartridges decrease in size, so too did the size and overall weight of the weapon being designed...hence the recoil while it may be lighter, will still have a demonstrable effect on the gun's movement.

Have you watched Future Weapons on Discovery? There were at least one or two SMGs that were pretty accurate at shortrange on full-auto. And there was one shotgun (AA-12) that could fire on full-auto and be on target with pretty much all its shots as demonstrated by the host of the show.

Also to add, the factors that make a firearm accurate are also the very same factors that make it unreliable in the field of battle...hence for an assault rifle or submachine gun to be reliable, it will lose inherent accuracy in favour of loose tolerances and increased reliability in feeding and loading...a gun that doesnt fire is just a stick...and a stick is of no use to any soldier in the field.

There is a major difference between the Semiauto civilian AR15 and the military Select-fire M16...one is exceptionally accurate but not very reliable...and the other is reliable but generally only accurate out to 250 yards while shooting from a prone rested position...and by accurate I mean able to hit a body size target...and not nessecarily in the centre at all.

In this point I would have to agree


Sorry wrong. I've seen new assault rifles on Future Weapons and elsewhere that were both highly reliable and accurate and not one or the other. Reliability and accuracy aren't mutually exclusive anymore as demonstrated by the host who dropped them, ran over them with a Hummer, put sand in them etc and they still fired accurately.

[God_Anubis]

Here's a question...

I wonder what would have happened if an Israeli visa student / PR had been the suspect in this case.

For one thing, the Arab media would have a field day. You would see Palestinian Islamists literally parading on the streets of Ramallah.

And you would see RFDers like asim writing long essays about the problem of "Israeli Terrorism" and the "inherent nature of Israeli violence".

How would the Americans react if this had been a terrorism related incident?

[SergesPlace]

Here's a question...

I wonder what would have happened if an Israeli visa student / PR had been the suspect in this case.

For one thing, the Arab media would have a field day. You would see Palestinian Islamists literally parading on the streets of Ramallah.

And you would see RFDers like asim writing long essays about the problem of "Israeli Terrorism" and the "inherent nature of Israeli violence".

How would the Americans react if this had been a terrorism related incident?

Why don't you start a thread in Politics about it? You'll find lot's of What if in there

[neilson]

Here's a question...

I wonder what would have happened if an Israeli visa student / PR had been the suspect in this case.

For one thing, the Arab media would have a field day. You would see Palestinian Islamists literally parading on the streets of Ramallah.

And you would see RFDers like asim writing long essays about the problem of "Israeli Terrorism" and the "inherent nature of Israeli violence".

How would the Americans react if this had been a terrorism related incident?

you don't want to know how I would've reacted

[SergesPlace]

you don't want to know how I would've reacted

You're right Neilson, nobody gives a shite.

[Acuratl]

Then obviously you should have no difficulty in showing how many shootings and murders have happened at gunshows where anyone with appropriate ID can buy a gun over the counter etc



If i wanted to go on a shooting rampage, as an example, i would not do it at a gunshow were i'd get gunned down before i even cock my gun haha

[jayisthebest88]

I heard the killers dad commited suicide.......I dont have any links to it........

Also, alot of korean ppl are trying to transfer outo f that school in fear of getting discriminated against....

[neilson]

You're right Neilson, nobody gives a shite.

What other Americans come on here to voice their opinions?

[Beradon]

Have you watched Future Weapons on Discovery? There were at least one or two SMGs that were pretty accurate at shortrange on full-auto. And there was one shotgun (AA-12) that could fire on full-auto and be on target with pretty much all its shots as demonstrated by the host of the show.
[EDIT]
Sorry wrong. I've seen new assault rifles on Future Weapons and elsewhere that were both highly reliable and accurate and not one or the other. FutureWeapons? C'mon you're talking about a program that showcases prototype weapons that aren't even available to the general public.

Reliability and accuracy aren't mutually exclusive anymore as demonstrated by the host who dropped them, ran over them with a Hummer, put sand in them etc and they still fired accurately.Forget it. Peckerwood won this round. You've been schooled.


Here's a question...

I wonder what would have happened if an Israeli visa student / PR had been the suspect in this case.

For one thing, the Arab media would have a field day. You would see Palestinian Islamists literally parading on the streets of Ramallah.

And you would see RFDers like asim writing long essays about the problem of "Israeli Terrorism" and the "inherent nature of Israeli violence".

How would the Americans react if this had been a terrorism related incident?Good observation. You hit it on all points.

[Peckerwood]

I'm not talking about hitting a paper target in full-auto. I'm talking about hitting a person with a bullet or two at close range which you can definitely do at 10,20,30+ meters in the confines of a building.
No doubt...but on fullauto you still arent going to hit much accurately...you may or may not actually hit what you are aiming at. In truth you are more likely to miss, as unaimed fire is just that, unaimed...and when a gun is firing in Fullauto you cant maintain a proper sight picture and therefore it is unaimed.
At 15 yards (13 metres) you can definitely hit a person on full-auto in a hallway or classroom, especially if you're crouching.
Again...you havent fired anything in Selectfire yet obviously...it isn't as easy as point and shoot. Your stance and posture have to change on demand, and in a heartbeat before opening up. The gun will do everything to distribute recoil in every conceivable direction while you are trying to keep it in the same position. It will not stay in place or continue to repeat the same behaviour while firing. It will move and shift. The stock will try to jimmy free of the shoulder. The muzzle will climb and rise as well as arc to the left or right without your permission.

Keep in mind that a one inch variance to the left or right at the muzzle will be close to 15 inches to one side at 15 yards...so a one inch movement in recoil will be a complete miss at 15 yards considering that most bodies are about 20-24 inches in width

If someone's running down a hallway that's only a few metres in width, how you can you not hit someone with a burst of bullets, unless you're a truely terrible shot. The same with inside a classroom, if you simply put the SMG or rifle to your shoulder, aim and shoot, how can you possibly miss, full-auto or not?
If you read my initial post...firing in Fullauto is not going to hit much...it is primarily designed to lay as many rounds downrange so as to suppress enemy fire etc...they keep their heads down so that the troops can move up quickly and take ground.

Again...your posts scream of someone who has never fired in full auto...shotting in semiauto is different as the gun isnt bouncing around as you take aim...so you have time to take your shot accurately. But in Full auto the gun is bouncing everywhere trying to get away from the propellant gases that are escaping out of the barrel.
Umm have you heard of the MP5? One of the most reliable and accurate SMGs in the world and used by special forces and police forces around the world? I'm pretty sure they're accurate outside of 15 yards.
The MP5 is accurate past 15 yards no doubt...I personally have hit the gong at 100 yards...but from a supported standing position with special optics that have a magnified lense.

Otherwise, without the optics you still arent going to hit much past 50 yards.

The issue is fullauto which is what I was talking about...you seem to be confusing the term FullAuto with SelectFire, which most people who watch too much television happen to do.

A Selective Fire gun is capable of both Semiauto fire and Fullauto fire with the use of a switch...so from now on, to avoid confusion, if you mean Selectfire then say so..and if you mean Fullauto then says so

The Select fire MP5 is capable of both Semiautomatic fire and Fullautomatic fire. And it is not as reliable as you would think...the only reason many forces use it is because it is a better subgun than most other guns, it is lighter, and still has the same recoil pulse as other subguns.

But the only people using it are the Canadians, Brits, Americans, and Germans...others use it on special contract or loan.

Have you watched Future Weapons on Discovery? There were at least one or two SMGs that were pretty accurate at shortrange on full-auto. And there was one shotgun (AA-12) that could fire on full-auto and be on target with pretty much all its shots as demonstrated by the host of the show.
If all of your information is coming from television then you will excuse me if i take it all with a grain of salt.

As for subguns being accurate, they require serious changes from the original open bolt systems to do so. The main issue with a pistol round is the immense pressure they create in such a short period of time to propel a generally heavier-than-rifle bullet...as a point, the 9mm round is usually about 124 grains in weight but varies from 115 grains to 147 grains. The 5.56mm weighs about 55grains in comparison.

With such high pressures in such very small spaces, it is nessecary to ensure full lockage in the mechanism to maintain the pressures without a rupture in the casing from early opening.

The original open bolts would overcome this problem simply by having the bolt very heavy as well as travelling forward with a great amount of inertia. This ensured that the bolt would stay closed just until pressures could drop enough to reliably open without a casing rupture during semiauto or full auto fire.

With a closed bolt system, the forward inertia of the bolt is no longer there due to using a lighter bolt mechanism...so instead they take up the extra pressure using various cam systems or locking mechanisms that open using mechanical alleviation of the energies present. In the MP5 the bolt system uses a carrier that is being pressed back through the use of a pair of internal wheel bearings in the bolt...this mechanical deviation transfers a great amount of energy inward rather than back and thusly uses leverage to keep the bolt shut until the timing is right and the bearings overcome the inertial camming resistance of the bolt carrier.

This delayed blowback system was developed back in 1945 by CETME and was later adopted for use by Heckler and Koch in the G3 and HK91...which also thusly later got employed in the HK94 or what is now known as the MP5

It isn't new technology by any stretch of the imagination...I have fired one...and past 15 yards in Full auto they dont hit anything more than any other closed bolt subgun will. To their credit though...in full auto they hit more than most openbolt subguns in the same weight class.
Sorry wrong. I've seen new assault rifles on Future Weapons and elsewhere that were both highly reliable and accurate and not one or the other. Reliability and accuracy aren't mutually exclusive anymore as demonstrated by the host who dropped them, ran over them with a Hummer, put sand in them etc and they still fired accurately.
As above...all of your info is coming from TV...why am I not surprised.

Do you even remember the name of the rifle or it's Experimental Designation? Just because they put it in some sand means crap...I can do the same thing to an M16 with the bolt closed and shake it off and it will still fire reliably.

Try taking the same gun with the bolt open in the locked back position and then get a junkload of sand in the barrel, gas port, chamber, breach, magazine...etc...and you can guarantee an explosion...even with an AK. Any barrel obstruction is still dangerous no matter what the rifle.

And yes accuracy diminishes when you start making headway in the chamber for debris to accumulate. The swage for any 5.56mm rifle is made slightly bigger for a reason...to allow debris a place to go to ensure the gun locks closed during fire without jams. The same with gas fouling...the carbon fouling needs a place to go in the barrel...and the swage is the worst place for it to accumulate without a place to go.

[Anessa]

where did you hear this from?

we need proof and evidence before spreading more false rumours

thanks in advance

ps. people can't tell the difference between Korean & Chinese so I suppose that the Chinese students might feel uncomfortable too

I heard a Chinese guy say on radio that he went to Virginia Tech or another Virginia university for graduate school

he didn't like the university so he transferred to another university

:arrowd:


In before this post is deleted :lol:

[Peckerwood]

I heard the killers dad commited suicide.......I dont have any links to it........

Also, alot of korean ppl are trying to transfer outo f that school in fear of getting discriminated against....
This makes me sad :|

Seriously I could not fathom such a tragedy for the Father...horrible

:(

[abu_sme]

This makes me sad :|

Seriously I could not fathom such a tragedy for the Father...horrible

:(

Except that it is not true at all

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20070417193523830

Confirmed by Virginia's governer himself.

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

people have noted that it's entirely the middle eastern way of spelling it, not the english


some guy posted:


Quote:
“Ismail” is the anglized Arabic spelling.

There is a story about Ismail and an ax in the Q’uran.

In the story, Ismail was the son of Ibrahim.

Ibrahim made stone figures and as a boy, Ismail would play around the figures his father sculpted, ride on then, etc.

One day, Ismail saw his father’s carvings in the temple and saw men bowing to them and offereing them food and drink.

Ismail thought it ridiculous that these men were doing this with “toys”.

His father explained to him that the statues he carved were gods.

Ismail didn’t buy it.

Finally one day Ismail watched the statues in the temple, waiting for them to eat the offered food, drink the offered drink.

When they didn’t, he destroyed the idols using an ax.
It really is all connected, but may mean nothing.

The story posted above sounds ridiculous - there is no way that you will find a story in the Qu'ran about Abraham selling statues to people to worship - there is a story about Abraham (anglicized Ibrahim) smashing the idols that his father made.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_view_of_Ishmael

Anyway just thought I'd throw that out.

[Peckerwood]

Except that it is not true at all

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20070417193523830

Confirmed by Virginia's governer himself.
What an absolutely horrible rumour to circulate though

:mad:

[abu_sme]

What an absolutely horrible rumour to circulate though

:mad:

I agree. I can't imagine the anguish that they are going through. Other family's lost loved ones, this family's loved one was behind it all!

[jayisthebest88]

Except that it is not true at all

http://bbsnews.net/article.php/20070417193523830

Confirmed by Virginia's governer himself.


lol n/m i cant read...

what I heard was, the father commited suicide, and the mother attempted but failed....I guess thats asian gossip for you.....and I also heard that this was on the korean news.

[Sonbuster]

sorry i'm late, but...HE WAS KOREAN [Cho Seung-Hui] !?!

to be honest, when i first heard of the shootings, i wasn't that shocked. i was shocked with Columbine, b/c it was a first that i've heard of, then followed the Amish killings, dawson college and others. Finding out this guy was korean, was a shocker.

i can see the headlines:

"Americas bloodiest school shooting: done by a Korean"

be warned, some crazy american will probably try to up the ante.

[Sonbuster]

funny, i was watching CNN and the gunseller was "sad his guns were used in that way"

WTF? how else would your guns be used? please don't tell me hunting.

[Peckerwood]

funny, i was watching CNN and the gunseller was "sad his guns were used in that way"

WTF? how else would your guns be used? please don't tell me hunting.
You are assuming that the only purpose for a gun is murderous rampages?

[abu_sme]

funny, i was watching CNN and the gunseller was "sad his guns were used in that way"

WTF? how else would your guns be used? please don't tell me hunting.

Maybe self-defense? Target shooting?

Hell, I own 3 pistol

[nickia]

lol i just watched the news on the Chinese channel and yesterday, they were one of the first to say that the killer was a Chinese National and they talked about how it's going to be hard for Chinese people to get a student VISA to the U.S in the future.

Today, once we found out it was Korean killer, they twisted the issue around by talking about whether it's going to be hard for Asians to get a student VISA in the future, as if they expected we would totally forget what they said yesterday.

I mean, they were wrong, admit it! wtf?

Does that make a difference? FACT: It will be hard for all asians to get a VISA from now on.

[Colargo]

No doubt...but on fullauto you still arent going to hit much accurately...you may or may not actually hit what you are aiming at. In truth you are more likely to miss, as unaimed fire is just that, unaimed...and when a gun is firing in Fullauto you cant maintain a proper sight picture and therefore it is unaimed.

I can agree if the distances are long range, but in the confined spaces of a room or hallway, unless you're a horrid shot, there's almost no way you can miss in the space of a few metres. It doesn't matter how much recoil you get and with new rifles and SMGs its much less that before, but the fact is at short range its pretty damn hard to miss unless you're a bad, bad shot.



Again...you havent fired anything in Selectfire yet obviously...it isn't as easy as point and shoot. Your stance and posture have to change on demand, and in a heartbeat before opening up. The gun will do everything to distribute recoil in every conceivable direction while you are trying to keep it in the same position. It will not stay in place or continue to repeat the same behaviour while firing. It will move and shift. The stock will try to jimmy free of the shoulder. The muzzle will climb and rise as well as arc to the left or right without your permission.

I'm well aware that a gun doesn't stay in the same position after each shot is discharged, but at short distances recoil doesn't affect you as much as it does long range. If you fire a sustained burst the gun isn't going to jump a foot up or something. Its going to climb and move around abit, but its definitely not going to be to the point where you can't hit anything at shortrange.

Keep in mind that a one inch variance to the left or right at the muzzle will be close to 15 inches to one side at 15 yards...so a one inch movement in recoil will be a complete miss at 15 yards considering that most bodies are about 20-24 inches in width

You do remember we're talking about SMGs and assault rifles right? Even at a modest 600 rounds per minute, 10 bullets in a second will have come out of the barrel before any serious recoil hits you. That's at 10 bullets fired towards your target with a pretty good degree of accuracy at short range. That's at least 5 bullets out of the barrel in less than 1/2 a second sprayed at you with a pretty good chance that at least one of them will hit your target. Even after that initial burst, if you're holding the gun firmly in both hands against your shoulder, you can control the recoil enough to still give you decent accuracy at short range.

Also aren't SMGs designed for close quarter combat? Aren't schools close quarters? An SMG is made to fire a bunch of bullets at your target with decent accuracy to increase your chances of hitting them. SWAT teams and such usually use a 3 round burst or something, but even in full-auto mode you're going to be pretty accurate still when clearing a room out. In a battlefield that's maybe only 20 metres in length, would you choose to have a semi-auto rifle or to have an SMG like an MP5 that is capable of full auto fire to have as your gun? I think I'd take the MP5.


If you read my initial post...firing in Fullauto is not going to hit much...it is primarily designed to lay as many rounds downrange so as to suppress enemy fire etc...they keep their heads down so that the troops can move up quickly and take ground.


In order to lay down suppression fire, you have to be able to fire at least somewhat accurately in the direction of the enemy correct? Otherwise its not really 'suppression fire'. On full-auto assault rifles can still hit the side of a house at 100m+. Are you telling me you can't hit a person in the confined space of a building in less than a 5th of that distance??

Again...your posts scream of someone who has never fired in full auto...shotting in semiauto is different as the gun isnt bouncing around as you take aim...so you have time to take your shot accurately. But in Full auto the gun is bouncing everywhere trying to get away from the propellant gases that are escaping out of the barrel.

The MP5 is accurate past 15 yards no doubt...I personally have hit the gong at 100 yards...but from a supported standing position with special optics that have a magnified lense.

Otherwise, without the optics you still arent going to hit much past 50 yards.


How many 50 yard classrooms have you seen in a school? That's right not many. The point is that at short range, spitting out a bunch of bullets with a decent degree of accuracy is lethal. Unless you can't aim worth a damn, recoil just isn't going to affect you enough if all you want to do is hit a person standing 5, 10 or 15+ metres away from you.

That's precisely what a SMG and to a lesser degree an assault rifle are designed for, close quarter combat.

The issue is fullauto which is what I was talking about...you seem to be confusing the term FullAuto with SelectFire, which most people who watch too much television happen to do.

A Selective Fire gun is capable of both Semiauto fire and Fullauto fire with the use of a switch...so from now on, to avoid confusion, if you mean Selectfire then say so..and if you mean Fullauto then says so.

Yes I'm quite aware of what selectfire, semi and auto fire means. That's why I've been saying full-auto, because that's what we're discussing mainly.


As above...all of your info is coming from TV...why am I not surprised.

Do you even remember the name of the rifle or it's Experimental Designation? Just because they put it in some sand means crap...I can do the same thing to an M16 with the bolt closed and shake it off and it will still fire reliably.

Try taking the same gun with the bolt open in the locked back position and then get a junkload of sand in the barrel, gas port, chamber, breach, magazine...etc...and you can guarantee an explosion...even with an AK. Any barrel obstruction is still dangerous no matter what the rifle.

And yes accuracy diminishes when you start making headway in the chamber for debris to accumulate. The swage for any 5.56mm rifle is made slightly bigger for a reason...to allow debris a place to go to ensure the gun locks closed during fire without jams. The same with gas fouling...the carbon fouling needs a place to go in the barrel...and the swage is the worst place for it to accumulate without a place to go.


No, not all my info is 'coming from TV'. I pointed it out because there are newer weapons being developed that don't have the drawbacks that you point out current guns may have. Or at the very least they're much more minimized.

Also in terms of reliability, the only thing SWAT teams and special forces have to worry about in these types of situations is that the gun won't jam when they're firing it. All this other stuff about dirt and gunk and whatever else doesn't mean jacksh*t really.

Why? Because we're not talking about troops in the field for months at a time where a gun has to be reliability no matter what conditions are thrown at it. We're talking about a SWAT team that keeps their weapons 100% clean and are called out for a situation that may last only a few hours or a day or so. And then they go back to their station and clean their weapons some more. So their weapons will always be functional and performing at peak levels.


Really here's a simple question. Give someone with even moderate knowledge of firearms an MP5 or an AK-47. Put you 20 yards away from him down a hallway that's maybe 8 yards wide. Would you be willing to bet your life that he can't hit you with at least one bullet no matter how much you run and zigzag? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't risk it, even though you say its difficult to hit someone outside of 15 yards on full-auto.

[Colargo]

FutureWeapons? C'mon you're talking about a program that showcases prototype weapons that aren't even available to the general public.

Some of the weapons and electroniccs featured on that show are already in use in Iraq. The Boomerang sniper detection system has already been in use there since 2004. So not all weapons featured are just prototypes and years away from been used in the field.

Reliability and accuracy aren't mutually exclusive anymore as demonstrated by the host who dropped them, ran over them with a Hummer, put sand in them etc and they still fired accurately.

Forget it. Peckerwood won this round. You've been schooled.

You're probably the same person who thinks firepower, mobility and protection can't be achieved in a tank.

[Txiasaeia]

Does that make a difference? FACT: It will be hard for all asians to get a VISA from now on.

You mean, seven-year-old Asians? That's how old he was when he immigrated to the US.

[Peckerwood]

It doesn't matter how much recoil you get and with new rifles and SMGs its much less that before, but the fact is at short range its pretty damn hard to miss unless you're a bad, bad shot.
Ever try to hit something running at 20mph...now try and do it when it is closer...the sight picture is greatly diminished and it is increasingly harder to hit it.

Again you obviously havent done any shooting...let alone grouse hunting or moose/deer hunting. A good reason why they use shotguns for grouse and ptarmigan hunting is that it is very difficult to hit something close up when it is moving fast...the shotgun gives a wide spread making it much easier to hit something moving fast.

The same is said for CQB shooting...close up things running from a doorway to another doorway in a hallway with only a splitsecond time slot are going to be next to impossible to hit reactively. Especially since the timeslot is restricted by a 4 foot span of front sight picture...not much time to gain a bead of travel on...or follow the target.
I'm well aware that a gun doesn't stay in the same position after each shot is discharged, but at short distances recoil doesn't affect you as much as it does long range. If you fire a sustained burst the gun isn't going to jump a foot up or something. Its going to climb and move around abit, but its definitely not going to be to the point where you can't hit anything at shortrange.
What guns are you talking about?...I have shot the M16 and many of it's variants...Standard 20" M16A4,A3,A2,andA1, M4(14.5"), CAR15(16"), 11" Commando, 10.5" model, and the 7.5" Kitty Kat...all Selectfire...and in full auto they bounce around...and at 15 yards they all miss in Fullauto after the third round...despite holding on tight and locking them up with a sling to the body.

The same for the MP5...being a shorter gun it will bounce around even more...and the gun displays slightly more recoil than that of the M16. While it may be considered the most accurate and controllable subgun...it still misses at 15 yards after the second shot in Full auto.

The shorter the gun gets for the same cartridge the greater the movement and subsequent misses will result. This is why they refer to it as a "cone of fire" and the percentages that go with it go down as the distance increases as well as the shorter the gun gets for subsequent recoil characteristics

Like I said...1 inch left/right/up/down at muzzle is 15 inches at 45 feet(15 yards)
You do remember we're talking about SMGs and assault rifles right? Even at a modest 600 rounds per minute, 10 bullets in a second will have come out of the barrel before any serious recoil hits you.
Now I am absolutely positive that you have never fired any Selectfire guns

The M16 A4 fires at 800+ rpm...the MP5 fires at a minimum of 800rpm and is adjustable for increased rate of fire by changing out the bearings.

The only gun that shoots 600 rpm is the AK47...and it recoils all over the place...at 15 yards, your first aimed shot will have hit a stable non-moving target...but the recoil is so great in the action of the gun, that every subsequent shot has a 10-15% chance(or less) of hitting the target in sustained fullauto fire The M16 at 15 yards in fullauto will also have the first shot hit the target with each subsequent shot having a 35-45% chance of hitting the target The MP5 will adhere to the M16 characteristics but with only a 30-40% chance of repeated hits at the same 15 yard range.

That is all on stable non-moving targets. The chance of repeated hits diminishes immediately with a mobile target due to shooter experience or lack thereof.

I am wondering how many rounds you have put downrange...In one month I put close to 40,000 rounds downrange...one month out of 4 months of fun(of course not the only time I have gone shooting these guns)...the other three months I put 12500 to 26000 rounds down range...I paid a pretty penny for all of that range time and surplus ammo.

Guns fired:
M16A1,A2,A4 5.56x45mm
M4A2 5.56x45mm
CAR15 5.56x45mm
11"Commando M16A2 5.56x45mm
10.5" M16A2 5.56x45mm
7.5" DPMS Kitty Kat 5.56x45mm
M60 7.62x51mm
Romanian AK47(1972) 7.62x39mm
Polish AK47(1975) 7.62x39mm
Russian Tula Arsenal AK47(1965) 7.62x39mm
Russian Iszmash Arsenal AK47(195?) 7.62x39mm
Cobray M9,M10,M11,M12---9mm,45acp,9mm,380acp
Sten 9mm
Bren machine gun 303brit
Russian AK74(1984) 5.45x39mm
Polish Tantal AK74(1989) 5.45x39mm
Sterling 9mm
MP5 9mm
MP5N 9mm
MP5K 9mm
MP5SD 9mm
FN FAL 7.62x51mm
FN FNC 5.56x45mm
FN P90 5.7x28mm

And the list goes on(of course not to mention the various pistols, revolvers, and derringers)...how many of these guns have you had the chance to shoot or even hold in your hands? I am guessing none. Thanks to the 18 people that own them(12 of which are all exmilitary) I have had the repeated chance to fire them all.
That's at 10 bullets fired towards your target with a pretty good degree of accuracy at short range.
You are guessing here or else you would have given a relevant cone of fire spread at a fixed range including percentile of impacts
That's at least 5 bullets out of the barrel in less than 1/2 a second sprayed at you with a pretty good chance that at least one of them will hit your target. Even after that initial burst, if you're holding the gun firmly in both hands against your shoulder, you can control the recoil enough to still give you decent accuracy at short range.
I am still awaiting your vast experience in the matter...as to date all you have presented in TV programs

Despite the rate of fire the gun will begin to climb on the first shot and will move upwards despite your best efforts to the contrary...to add, the gun will also begin to yaw which is totally outside of your control as a shooter without vertical grips or fixed aids such as a stable shooting platform like a gun mount or tripod.
Also aren't SMGs designed for close quarter combat? Aren't schools close quarters? An SMG is made to fire a bunch of bullets at your target with decent accuracy to increase your chances of hitting them. SWAT teams and such usually use a 3 round burst or something, but even in full-auto mode you're going to be pretty accurate still when clearing a room out.
The shooter still has to acquire and aim at a target that is most likely dodging and moving...not an easy task when you are pumped full of adrenaline and trying desperately to tell the diff between HT and civvy. In semiauto it is easier to make the hit...fullauto or 3 shot burst only compounds the issue if the HT has a hostage etc...which is why the ERT keeps their guns on semi when moving from room to room.

The fullauto selection is strictly for suppressive fire...soldiers do not even use it for active target acquisition and elimination...they only use it to lay rounds down range to keep the enemy fixed in his position out of fear of getting hit by a stray round.

In a battlefield that's maybe only 20 metres in length, would you choose to have a semi-auto rifle or to have an SMG like an MP5 that is capable of full auto fire to have as your gun? I think I'd take the MP5.
I would take a semiauto M4 variant anyday over the Selectfire MP5...hands down. Which is probably why when I last saw the ERT doing their thing up here 6 years ago, they too were carrying M4's and AR15 variants...oh there were MP5's...but those guys stayed in the background until needed.


In order to lay down suppression fire, you have to be able to fire at least somewhat accurately in the direction of the enemy correct? Otherwise its not really 'suppression fire'. On full-auto assault rifles can still hit the side of a house at 100m+. Are you telling me you can't hit a person in the confined space of a building in less than a 5th of that distance??
This is where you are wrong...suppressive fire is not meant to be accurate at all...the idea is to lay indiscriminate fire at the enemy's potential position in order to ensure that through fear they keep their heads down allowing friendly personnel the opportunity to move up and gain ground without getting shot by any semiauto aimed fire from the enemy.


How many 50 yard classrooms have you seen in a school? That's right not many. The point is that at short range, spitting out a bunch of bullets with a decent degree of accuracy is lethal. Unless you can't aim worth a damn, recoil just isn't going to affect you enough if all you want to do is hit a person standing 5, 10 or 15+ metres away from you.
Again...how many on the above list of firearms have you fired...what was the name of the range were you shooting at, and what distance with cone of fire percentiles of impact?

That's precisely what a SMG and to a lesser degree an assault rifle are designed for, close quarter combat.
Yes...but even the military uses shorter M16 variants in preference over the MP5 for CQB practice...simply because it does more damage and is more ranged than the MP5...that and the MP5 is only issued to Armoured Cavalry, Mechanized Infantry(personnel who are actually driving the vehicles) and Army helicopter pilots. Only other specialists use the MP5 such as Navy SeALs because of the mission it is specified for...such as a wet one ;)
Yes I'm quite aware of what selectfire, semi and auto fire means. That's why I've been saying full-auto, because that's what we're discussing mainly.
Good :)

[Peckerwood]

No, not all my info is 'coming from TV'. I pointed it out because there are newer weapons being developed that don't have the drawbacks that you point out current guns may have. Or at the very least they're much more minimized.
the only gun that would even remotely have the potential of doing what you say is the HK G11...and it was scrapped due to unreliability of continuous fire as well as jamming issues in negative field conditions.
Also in terms of reliability, the only thing SWAT teams and special forces have to worry about in these types of situations is that the gun won't jam when they're firing it.
There is some truth to this...but there is always the potential for use in the field outside city limits and the Police Planners must still have contingencies dealt with should the need arise...so it is still within the scope of their potential use.
Really here's a simple question. Give someone with even moderate knowledge of firearms an MP5 or an AK-47. Put you 20 yards away from him down a hallway that's maybe 8 yards wide. Would you be willing to bet your life that he can't hit you with at least one bullet no matter how much you run and zigzag? I'm pretty sure you wouldn't risk it, even though you say its difficult to hit someone outside of 15 yards on full-auto.
I would bet that at 20 yards the average person couldnt hit diddly squat accurately on fullauto with either weapon while someone is zigzagging...perhaps with a shotgun they might. But with either of those two the chances are that the guy would get hit with a stray unaimed bullet rather than an aimed one. the AK47 being the worse of the two.

As for doing it myself...not without being armed ;)
You're probably the same person who thinks firepower, mobility and protection can't be achieved in a tank.
If that was the case then there would never be any M1A1 Abrahms tanks being demolished by insurgents in Iraq ;)

[Peckerwood]

In truth we are getting way off topic here...and I am partly to blame...I apologize if this has offended anyone at all.

:)

[B40]

funny, i was watching CNN and the gunseller was "sad his guns were used in that way"

WTF? how else would your guns be used? please don't tell me hunting.

Ignorance at its finest right there.

[canabiz]

Does that make a difference? FACT: It will be hard for all asians to get a VISA from now on.

Probably the most ignorant and ridiculous comment I have seen on RFD for a long time.

All Asians eh ? You mean anyone from India or Japan or Vietnam or South Korea or Cambodia or Malaysia or China or Sri Lanka will have trouble getting VISA now ?

and what kind of VISA are you talking about ? You mean tourist VISA, study VISA, work VISA, transit VISA, US VISA, Canadian VISA, or bling-bling VISA ?

My God, the world is looking at Asians as gun-loving, rampage-killing psychos now.

Get your FACTS straight

[Peckerwood]

I heard the most insulting debasement in a chat room tonight...the guy was suggesting that the whole shooting was a planned event to take the media focus off of the hearings on a possible impeachment of GWB

That somehow the government had manipulated this guy's mind through brainwashing and drugs etc to do the shooting and then kill himself etc...now that is about as disrespectful as it gets IMHO

:rolleyes:

And I thought I was a tinfoiler... :|

[Colargo]

Ever try to hit something running at 20mph...now try and do it when it is closer...the sight picture is greatly diminished and it is increasingly harder to hit it.

Again you obviously havent done any shooting...let alone grouse hunting or moose/deer hunting. A good reason why they use shotguns for grouse and ptarmigan hunting is that it is very difficult to hit something close up when it is moving fast...the shotgun gives a wide spread making it much easier to hit something moving fast.

The same is said for CQB shooting...close up things running from a doorway to another doorway in a hallway with only a splitsecond time slot are going to be next to impossible to hit reactively. Especially since the timeslot is restricted by a 4 foot span of front sight picture...not much time to gain a bead of travel on...or follow the target.

So you're telling me if I have an SMG pointed at you and you're 5 metres away I'm going to miss if I go full-auto on you? Uhh right. :lol:

If you're running fullout you're not going to be zigzaging much, and if you're zigzaging you're not going to be running fullout.

And If your objective in CQB is to kill as many as possible, then why would you ever want to do it with a handgun or a semi-auto rifle instead of a assault rifle or SMG?


Like I said...1 inch left/right/up/down at muzzle is 15 inches at 45 feet(15 yards)

Now I am absolutely positive that you have never fired any Selectfire guns

The M16 A4 fires at 800+ rpm...the MP5 fires at a minimum of 800rpm and is adjustable for increased rate of fire by changing out the bearings.

The only gun that shoots 600 rpm is the AK47...and it recoils all over the place...at 15 yards, your first aimed shot will have hit a stable non-moving target...but the recoil is so great in the action of the gun, that every subsequent shot has a 10-15% chance(or less) of hitting the target in sustained fullauto fire The M16 at 15 yards in fullauto will also have the first shot hit the target with each subsequent shot having a 35-45% chance of hitting the target The MP5 will adhere to the M16 characteristics but with only a 30-40% chance of repeated hits at the same 15 yard range.

That is all on stable non-moving targets. The chance of repeated hits diminishes immediately with a mobile target due to shooter experience or lack thereof.


The MP5 is 800 rpm, the P90 is 900 rpm, there are plenty of guns that fire 600 rpm and over. Also SMGs usually use smaller rounds which reduce recoil.

Again we're talking about putting as many bullets as you can on a target at close range even if its not completely accurate and that's the purpose of an SMG or an assault rifle. That's the basics of CQB if your objective is to shoot to kill and you don't seem to get that.



I am wondering how many rounds you have put downrange...In one month I put close to 40,000 rounds downrange...one month out of 4 months of fun(of course not the only time I have gone shooting these guns)...the other three months I put 12500 to 26000 rounds down range...I paid a pretty penny for all of that range time and surplus ammo.


And the list goes on(of course not to mention the various pistols, revolvers, and derringers)...how many of these guns have you had the chance to shoot or even hold in your hands? I am guessing none. Thanks to the 18 people that own them(12 of which are all exmilitary) I have had the repeated chance to fire them all.

You are guessing here or else you would have given a relevant cone of fire spread at a fixed range including percentile of impacts.

You may have fired all those weapons and you can keep telling me stats and such, but it really doesn't seem like you understand how CQB works when it comes to simply trying to kill or incapcitate your targets.

In CQB where its like 20 metres or so between you and your target, do you really have time to aim your shots without getting hit yourself because of you exposing yourself to the enemy? That's what SMGs and such are for. To lay down heavy and reasonably accurate fire at your enemy and then get back behind cover. Do you not understand this??


I am still awaiting your vast experience in the matter...as to date all you have presented in TV programs

Despite the rate of fire the gun will begin to climb on the first shot and will move upwards despite your best efforts to the contrary...to add, the gun will also begin to yaw which is totally outside of your control as a shooter without vertical grips or fixed aids such as a stable shooting platform like a gun mount or tripod.

With a high rate of fire, several bullets will have left the barrel before recoil starts affecting you. Its action and reaction. If you don't pull the trigger there's no recoil. When you fire, at least the first few bullets are flying fairly true before recoil takes them off course abit.

Seriously never in my life have I ever seen either in real life or in videos a gun barrel fly all over the place as you've seemed to describe it when a gun is firing on full-auto. Sure there's movement, but its nothing like what you've described where its completely uncontrollable.

Show me a video of an AK-47, an FNC or other assault rifle or SMG where a barrel is going wildly all over the place on full-auto.


The shooter still has to acquire and aim at a target that is most likely dodging and moving...not an easy task when you are pumped full of adrenaline and trying desperately to tell the diff between HT and civvy. In semiauto it is easier to make the hit...fullauto or 3 shot burst only compounds the issue if the HT has a hostage etc...which is why the ERT keeps their guns on semi when moving from room to room.

The fullauto selection is strictly for suppressive fire...soldiers do not even use it for active target acquisition and elimination...they only use it to lay rounds down range to keep the enemy fixed in his position out of fear of getting hit by a stray round.

So in a close quarter situation, do you mean to tell me its easier to hit someone with a semi-auto rifle that it is with an assault rifle, especially when they're dodging etc? No freakin way. Again you don't seem to know how CQB works. As you pointed out if you're hyped up on adrenaline and nervous etc, you're telling me its easier to hit some with a semi-auto rifle or handgun that it is with an SMG or assault rifle??? :confused:


I would take a semiauto M4 variant anyday over the Selectfire MP5...hands down. Which is probably why when I last saw the ERT doing their thing up here 6 years ago, they too were carrying M4's and AR15 variants...oh there were MP5's...but those guys stayed in the background until needed.

Again, on semi-auto how the heck are you going to get off accurate shots without getting hit yourself? You go ahead and aim patiently when as you say the adrenaline is rushing through your veins. On the hand your enemy leans around a corner and lets loose with a burst of fire at your position where you're exposed and quickly ducks back behind cover. And if one in ten of the bullets he shot at you finds its mark you're a goner. Yeah, semi-auto wins out!

This is where you are wrong...suppressive fire is not meant to be accurate at all...the idea is to lay indiscriminate fire at the enemy's potential position in order to ensure that through fear they keep their heads down allowing friendly personnel the opportunity to move up and gain ground without getting shot by any semiauto aimed fire from the enemy.

I didn't say it was accurate fire. I said somewhat accurate. IE if your commander says 'suppressing fire on X apartment complex 100m away.' Then you fire and hit that complex with bullets. You're not aiming at an individual, but you're definitely aiming at the building at which the individual is in or is believed to be in.

If that was the case then there would never be any M1A1 Abrahms tanks being demolished by insurgents in Iraq

Pretty sure you're wrong on this one too. ;) I would like to see actual stats on how many Abrams tanks are actually 'demolished' beyond repair. I'm pretty sure that most of tanks that have been hit with IEDs were recovered, repaired and put back into service, because their that tough.

In any case that wasn't my point. What I was saying is that tank designers have been trying to build a tank that has mobility, firepower and protection and after decades of development its been achieved. So the same can be done for rifles and SMGs, of which some are already low recoil.

[Colargo]

I would bet that at 20 yards the average person couldnt hit diddly squat accurately on fullauto with either weapon while someone is zigzagging...perhaps with a shotgun they might. But with either of those two the chances are that the guy would get hit with a stray unaimed bullet rather than an aimed one. the AK47 being the worse of the two.

As for doing it myself...not without being armed.

Again we're talking about CQB in a narrow hallway or office or a classroom. Tell me how the heck you're going to zigzag enough to dodge a stream of bullets coming your way? Again if you mean to tell me that at 10-20 metres that I can't hit you with a bullet or two in a hallway or a classroom then YOU'RE the one who doesn't know what their talking about. Seriously, it doesn't matter how much you run or dodge, at 10 metres a stream of bullets fired left to right at you is going to hit you.

You keep questioning how much I know about guns etc. But really it should be I questioning how much you really know considering you can't even grasp CQB basics. Again we're talking about combat in distances of mere METRES not 50 metres not 100 metres, but 5-20 metres at most. In that short distance its all about weight of fire and moderate accuracy.

A stream of bullets fired at this very short range isn't going to be affected by recoil and 'cones of fire' and such. I'm looking at my room now and at 5 metres there's no freaking way you're not going to get hit if a stream of bullets is coming at you.

If you were debating about the accuracy of full-auto fire in an outdoor situation where there's plenty of space to move around and the range is 50+ metres, then I wouldn't argue with you. But when we're talking about confined areas where movement is severely restricted by walls and such, full-auto fire is LETHAL at short ranges. In such close ranges if you're standing still a shooter can't help but hit you. If you're running away from the shooter, at 10, 20 metres etc you're still most likely going to get hit. Sure the guy is going to miss with a few bullets on full-auto or burst mode, but almost certainly a burst of 5-10 bullets aimed in your direction, you're going to be hit.

There's just no way of avoiding it when you're forced down a narrow hallway or you're trapped a small room. The fact that you're arguing that IT IS possible to dodge bullets or for the shooter to not hit you at these incredibly short ranges is mind boggling.

[canabiz]

Guys I think somebody has mentioned this before but if you guys could keep your discussions about guns and their capacities to a minimum (or start another thread, altogether) that would be appreciated

Let's keep this thread on-topic (i.e. the event itself, the shooter, the victims, the circumstances etc)

Cheers!

[Peckerwood]

This is my last post on this subject...all other posts will be done in PM or in a different thread should one be made. Again I apologize for the hijack

So you're telling me if I have an SMG pointed at you and you're 5 metres away I'm going to miss if I go full-auto on you? Uhh right. :lol:
Now it is 5 meters...first it was 15

And yes at 15 meters you might hit someone in sustained fullauto...but not accurately at all...and no guarantees on CNS or Thoracic Cavity strikes
And If your objective in CQB is to kill as many as possible, then why would you ever want to do it with a handgun or a semi-auto rifle instead of a assault rifle or SMG?
I didnt say that I wanted a handgun...the handgun and the subgun would be the last choices on my list for defensive weapons. The reason is damage...and nothing else. The 223 does way more damage than the 9mm. The pistol is inherently innaccurate due to lack of three point contact for stock welding the weapon securely during fire. The subgun has more recoil due to a lighter mass of the gun as well as a heavier mass of the bullet.
Also SMGs usually use smaller rounds which reduce recoil.
Way off base here...the nature of recoil is directly proportionate to the weight of the bullet, the speed it is travelling and the mass of the gun

The lighter the gun the more it will recoil for the same weight and velocity of bullet...decrease the velocity but increase the mass of the bullet and the same recoil and muzzle flip will still be the result. The 9mm is a bigger bullet than the 223...9mm weighs 124 grains...223 weighs 55 grains....the 45 acp bullet weighs 230 grains

Do the math.Plus the fact that the subguns use a variation on a blowback system whereby the energy delivered backwards is the same energy used to recycle the system...compare that to the M16 or AK47 that use a gas system that bleeds gas into a chamber and thusly to a piston that in turn cycles the action. The Delayed blowback HK53(5.56mm) recoils with a greater amount of muzzle flip than that of the M16(also in 5.56mm) The reason is in the way the system cycles and how much energy is required for manipulation of the operating system.
You may have fired all those weapons and you can keep telling me stats and such, but it really doesn't seem like you understand how CQB works when it comes to simply trying to kill or incapcitate your targets.
Ahh yes...because my thousands of rounds downrange and multiple hours of range time means that I dont know anything compared to a TV junkie who hasnt been on a range or handled even one of the firearms I posted. :rolleyes:
In CQB where its like 20 metres or so between you and your target, do you really have time to aim your shots without getting hit yourself because of you exposing yourself to the enemy? That's what SMGs and such are for. To lay down heavy and reasonably accurate fire at your enemy and then get back behind cover. Do you not understand this??
Too many movies...not enough range time. You need to get out more
With a high rate of fire, several bullets will have left the barrel before recoil starts affecting you. Its action and reaction. If you don't pull the trigger there's no recoil. When you fire, at least the first few bullets are flying fairly true before recoil takes them off course abit.
The first one yes...maybe the second and third perhaps...after that it is a guessing game
Seriously never in my life have I ever seen either in real life or in videos a gun barrel fly all over the place as you've seemed to describe it when a gun is firing on full-auto. Sure there's movement, but its nothing like what you've described where its completely uncontrollable.
What you deem controllable and what I deem controllable are obviously two different things...for you so long as the gun doesn't come flying out of his hands then for you it is to be deemed controllable.

For me...so long as I can reliably and consistently print a 12 inch group in Fullauto sustained fire at 15 yards then it is controllable...And I have yet to see an Assault rifle or subgun that can do that. The first and second shots will print...but every other shot will shotgun all over the paper and surrounding range.
Show me a video of an AK-47, an FNC or other assault rifle or SMG where a barrel is going wildly all over the place on full-auto.
Viddy of a Selectfire thompson Submachine gun...notice the guy has to lean right in on this gun to stop it from going absolutely everywhere and it still bounces around...45 ACP 230 grain PISTOL bullets from a gun that weighs close to 11 pounds of raw steel and wood...and still lots of muzzle climb and lateral shift(yaw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phjkQ6VofMw

Galil in 5.56mm...notice the rise in muzzle...that inch of travel in any direction is a full 15 inches off trajectory at 15 yards. Which to the left or right is a complete miss if aiming at centre body mass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfPNUy0Ac3c

Here is a guy who obviously has training...using an AK74 while on the move slow walk...and at 15 yards even he is missing. At least 5 or more shots per target before a hit is scored in semiauto only
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxqgOiq6Fz0

AK74SU Krinkov...notice the bounce despite two handed control...again 1 inch is 15 inches at 15 yards. In the last portion he has the gun supported on the magazine...the second last portion shows the gun unsupported and still it bounces everywhere...and that is chambered for the lighter less recoiling 5.45x39mm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onCV_tEPRb8
And another...notice the recoil and muzzle flip...in fullauto the first shot hits aimed...but the next ones miss above the target
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cDUjnTk9aw
So in a close quarter situation, do you mean to tell me its easier to hit someone with a semi-auto rifle that it is with an assault rifle, especially when they're dodging etc? No freakin way.
Yes way...more control...more aimed shots...less muzzle bounce between shots. Keep in mind that LEO and Military both keep their guns on semiauto during fire ops...so I guess they know less than you :rolleyes:
Again you don't seem to know how CQB works. As you pointed out if you're hyped up on adrenaline and nervous etc, you're telling me its easier to hit some with a semi-auto rifle or handgun that it is with an SMG or assault rifle??? :confused:
Apparently your idea of CQB is to waste as many rounds in a closed environment as possible in hopes that you might hit something...rather than calmly placing shots in semiauto or with quick 2 and 3 shot bursts

The rifle is more stable and recoils less and therefore is a better choice...the only reason that some ERT groups choose to use the MP5 and other subguns has everything to do with being in tight spaces and less to do with the gun itself or it's lack of ability to maintain sustained accurate fullauto fire.




Again, on semi-auto how the heck are you going to get off accurate shots without getting hit yourself? You go ahead and aim patiently when as you say the adrenaline is rushing through your veins. On the hand your enemy leans around a corner and lets loose with a burst of fire at your position where you're exposed and quickly ducks back behind cover. And if one in ten of the bullets he shot at you finds its mark you're a goner. Yeah, semi-auto wins out!
Funny how the cops out there seem to do just fine by keeping their guns on Semiauto and still taking down the perp in firefights...hmmm.

Plus the scenario you are describing fits that of an ambush...in which the attacker generally has the upper hand regardless of the weapon...including a knife and hiding behind a door.
I didn't say it was accurate fire. I said somewhat accurate. IE if your commander says 'suppressing fire on X apartment complex 100m away.' Then you fire and hit that complex with bullets. You're not aiming at an individual, but you're definitely aiming at the building at which the individual is in or is believed to be in.
And?

[rinse]

Why don't you guys take your gun debate somewhere else?

[SergesPlace]

Wow, i've been reading about the gunman's parents. Very nice hard working folks who put a daughter through Princeton and their son was set to graduate in a few weeks. The large Korean community there is understandably devastated by what has taken place but there does seem to be tremendous support for the guy's family.

[Peckerwood]

Why don't you guys take your gun debate somewhere else?
You are more than welcome to read the first line in the top of my last post

:)

[SergesPlace]

A friend of mine just told me that those crazy religious folks otherwise known as "The most hated family in America" plan to picket the funerals. I'm trying to get more info on this

[Peckerwood]

A friend of mine just told me that those crazy religious folks otherwise known as "The most hated family in America" plan to picket the funerals. I'm trying to get more info on this
Yeah that will go over well.

:|

[Byrns]

A friend of mine just told me that those crazy religious folks otherwise known as "The most hated family in America" plan to picket the funerals. I'm trying to get more info on this

The Phelps family cult also protested the Amish funerals too.

[bigdaddyyc]

Wow, i've been reading about the gunman's parents. Very nice hard working folks who put a daughter through Princeton and their son was set to graduate in a few weeks. The large Korean community there is understandably devastated by what has taken place but there does seem to be tremendous support for the guy's family.

hard working doesn't necessarily mean great parents. I do feel sorry for them because they will probably be a target for blame. Seriously though, after listening to his roomates talk about him... stalked 3 girls, police was involved...had an imaginary girlfriend...never had a visitor all year, including his parents...no friends, a social outcast....judged women by looking at their eyes...refered to himself as question mark and called his roomates under this alias saying it was seungs brother... come on, some of this can be attributed to his upbringing. His parents never visiting him is a start

[Talamasca]

***oops, never mind***

I saw the CNN interview with his two roommates last night. Creepy. Especially the part with the stalking and non-talking.

[rockthecasbah]

A friend of mine just told me that those crazy religious folks otherwise known as "The most hated family in America" plan to picket the funerals. I'm trying to get more info on this

What would they have against students? I know they picket the funerals of homosexuals, soldiers, the Amish (b/c they apparently "don't serve God, they just serve themselves"... since, y'know, picketing funerals like these Phelps people = serving God!!) but do these murdered students?

Unless they are indiscriminate in who they protest and will protest ANYONE dead that isn't a God fearing Christian in a similar denomination as themselves.

[SergesPlace]

What would they have against students? I know they picket the funerals of homosexuals, soldiers, the Amish (b/c they apparently "don't serve God, they just serve themselves"... since, y'know, picketing funerals like these Phelps people = serving God!!) but do these murdered students?

Unless they are indiscriminate in who they protest and will protest ANYONE dead that isn't a God fearing Christian in a similar denomination as themselves.

I know that one of the Students, Ryan Clark the first guy that was killed was gay.

[SergesPlace]

hard working doesn't necessarily mean great parents. I do feel sorry for them because they will probably be a target for blame. Seriously though, after listening to his roomates talk about him... stalked 3 girls, police was involved...had an imaginary girlfriend...never had a visitor all year, including his parents...no friends, a social outcast....judged women by looking at their eyes...refered to himself as question mark and called his roomates under this alias saying it was seungs brother... come on, some of this can be attributed to his upbringing. His parents never visiting him is a start

Hmmm, this guy was very deeply disturbed. there's now reports that he may have been a paranoid schizophrenia. You can't blame his parents for that. His parents came the the US to seek a better life and a better education for their children which they were able to do.

[rinse]

I love how the media is all about 20/20 hindsight.

Seriously, even though there were "warning signs" that this kid was disturbed, was there really anything anyone could have done to stop this guy from doing what he did?

[ggs]

can we even believe everythign we read from US media? Aren't they just trying to tell a story, to paint a certain picture?

[SergesPlace]

I love how the media is all about 20/20 hindsight.

Seriously, even though there were "warning signs" that this kid was disturbed, was there really anything anyone could have done to stop this guy from doing what he did?

Don't get me started on the media's spin in all of this. My view is that it's all a $$ winfall for them with all the coverage. There is that one English Prof Who really tried to reach out to this guy a couple of years ago but didn't succeed in getting him to seek the help he needed.

[bigdaddyyc]

Hmmm, this guy was very deeply disturbed. there's now reports that he may have been a paranoid schizophrenia. You can't blame his parents for that. His parents came the the US to seek a better life and a better education for their children which they were able to do.

if he was a paranoid schizopheric, you'd think his parents would notice, and if they didn't try to resolve his issues, I can blame them for that. You'd think his parents would notice something different about their child, unless they weren't very close and didn't pay much attention to one another, which I will blame the parents for again. Not many people reached out to this guy, and those who did were shut down. Definitely some trust/relationship issues, which I can't fully blame the parents for, but they are a large part of his upbringing and should be one of the first relationships he establishes in his life.

[CSK'sMom]

I love how the media is all about 20/20 hindsight.

Seriously, even though there were "warning signs" that this kid was disturbed, was there really anything anyone could have done to stop this guy from doing what he did?

Absolutely! Had the university taken the situation as seriously as it was (reported by professors) this may not have happened. If Virginia had stricter gun laws (waiting times and mental illness clauses) this absolutely could have been prevented. If the university police had locked down the campus the deaths at Norris Hall would not have happened.... How's that for a start?

[bigdaddyyc]

Absolutely! Had the university taken the situation as seriously as it was (reported by professors) this may not have happened. If Virginia had stricter gun laws (waiting times and mental illness clauses) this absolutely could have been prevented. If the university police had locked down the campus the deaths at Norris Hall would not have happened.... How's that for a start?

I think he was talking about his mental condition, and his state of psychosis, not the series of events that occurred. But I'll agree with you that the death toll would've been dropped if other measures, like the ones you described, were taken. But an incident (suicide etc.) could not be avoided, because he was a disturbed child.

[CHINAdeals]

A friend of mine just told me that those crazy religious folks otherwise known as "The most hated family in America" plan to picket the funerals. I'm trying to get more info on this

link to shirley phelps 'blog thingy' (http://www.godhatesfags.com/featured/dearshirley/dearshirley.html)

two pdfs on the V Tech incident

[CSK'sMom]

I think he was talking about his mental condition, and his state of psychosis, not the series of events that occurred. But I'll agree with you that the death toll would've been dropped if other measures, like the ones you described, were taken. But an incident (suicide etc.) could not be avoided, because he was a disturbed child.

I disagree with you. The "incident (suicide etc.)" absolutely could have been prevented with competent mental health services provided in a timely manner either as an in-patient or as an out-patient who was closely monitored...

[civ@uw]

I love how the media is all about 20/20 hindsight.

Seriously, even though there were "warning signs" that this kid was disturbed, was there really anything anyone could have done to stop this guy from doing what he did?

Yeah think about how many quiet, "loner" types you encounter throughout life. Should we be suspicious of all of them? :rolleyes:

Don't get me started on the media's spin in all of this. My view is that it's all a $$ winfall for them with all the coverage.

Agreed. The worst part of it all, all of this gunman-centric coverage is likely inspiring other school shooters.

[CHINAdeals]

Yeah think about how many quiet, "loner" types you encounter throughout life. Should we be suspicious of all of them? :rolleyes:


maybe not suspicious..but friendly wouldn't hurt..hey we're all jerks sometime..or most of the time..it wouldn't hurt for all of us to be a little 'nicer.friendly/be that helping hand..sure hindsight is 20/20 and saying if only i was their 'friend' they wouldn't do this etc..but hey you never know..sure gets you thinkin'. b/c the shooter just looks so unbelievably normal.

[Lone_Prodigy]

I love how the media is all about 20/20 hindsight.

Seriously, even though there were "warning signs" that this kid was disturbed, was there really anything anyone could have done to stop this guy from doing what he did?

can we even believe everythign we read from US media? Aren't they just trying to tell a story, to paint a certain picture?

Totally agree. People can talk about timely medical help, increased security, etc. Unfortunately it won't bring any of the victims back, but hopefully it will placate the instinctual fears of a lot of people.

I read in the paper how one student said "he fit the stereotype." I never knew insane killers had anything in common, besides being insane and killers. So should we now be suspicious of quiet loners who dress in black and criticize "rich kids"?

Face it, it could be anyone. Just be more vigilant and aware and stop relying on others to keep you safe.

[SergesPlace]

watch this guys

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/18/worlds-worst-heartless-wingnuts/

[kiasu]

Many other countries' PM sent a condolense to G Bush after this incident happened and with the media wide spreading. Personally, I dont give a damn about American. Come on...just 32 ppl died compare to other thousand and million of ppl died Iraq, Israel, ...etc and no body care? What's the big freaking deal of 32 ppl death in American? So, according to the news and media...does that mean those 32 ppl shouldnt have died and who care about other thounsand of ppl died in other countries? I am not racist here as I am just sick of the media and America always thought they are hero or whatever crap.

[CHINAdeals]

Many other countries' PM sent a condolense to G Bush after this incident happened and with the media wide spreading. Personally, I dont give a damn about American. Come on...just 32 ppl died compare to other thousand and million of ppl died Iraq, Israel, ...etc and no body care? What's the big freaking deal of 32 ppl death in American? So, according to the news and media...does that mean those 32 ppl shouldnt die and who care about other thounsand of ppl died in other countries? I am not racist here as I am just sick of the media and America always thought they are hero or whatever crap.

well no they shouldn't have died..but apparantly the 'media' world has forgotten about the war in Iraq etc...Bush must be 'sad'.but really..i'm sure his advisors are ..i hate to say it . 'glad'. media press has been diverted for the time being.

[SergesPlace]

well no they shouldn't have died..but apparantly the 'media' world has forgotten about the war in Iraq etc...Bush must be 'sad'.but really..i'm sure his advisors are ..i hate to say it . 'glad'. media press has been diverted for the time being.

Today's headline

At least 166 people killed on Wednesday in series of bombings in Baghdad

[UrbanPoet]

they should really look out for mental health in the early years of school up till at least early high school.
Maybe this would help build well rounded individuals.

[bigdaddyyc]

I disagree with you. The "incident (suicide etc.)" absolutely could have been prevented with competent mental health services provided in a timely manner either as an in-patient or as an out-patient who was closely monitored...

I wasn't making a point, I was explaining what I thought the initial poster meant when he said there's nothing you could do. I agree with you, but you have to remember he was offered these services, but chose not to use them. So what can you really do? Do you have the grounds to force someone, who hasn't had any criminal charges, into a mental health program? Even so, would he take it seriously? He wasn't an open person to begin with, saying a mental institution would've avoided this incident is naive.

[bigdaddyyc]

I disagree with you. The "incident (suicide etc.)" absolutely could have been prevented with competent mental health services provided in a timely manner either as an in-patient or as an out-patient who was closely monitored...

now they are reporting he did go to a mental health facility in 2005... shame it didn't work. www.cnn.com

[wong8egg]

Today's headline

At least 166 people killed on Wednesday in series of bombings in Baghdad

is that even being mentioned on CNN???

[CSK'sMom]

The roomates reported a suicide threat after a visit from the police for stalking a girl. He was taken to the on-campus counselling center for what they remember to be 48 hrs. There was no followup after this incident and the professors reporting him which is where the school dropped the ball IMHO... The line they were all told repeatedly was that he hadn't actually threatened anyone specifically or threatened a specific act of violence so there was nothing that could be done. Sorry, but that's a major copout IMO. He absolutely fit the FBI profile of school shooters....

[ZenOps]

What would they have against students? I know they picket the funerals of homosexuals, soldiers, the Amish (b/c they apparently "don't serve God, they just serve themselves"... since, y'know, picketing funerals like these Phelps people = serving God!!) but do these murdered students?

Amish are extremely selfish depending on who you ask. In the US superculture, you aren't allowed to own land unless you've killed for it or are willing to kill to protect it, which any Amish will not do. Amish will never fight for their country even if drafted, using the (possibly legitimate) excuse that they are peaceloving. US absolutely hates that, and this idea has been hit on in a number of media movies. The only saving grace for them is that they are white, if they were native or dark skinned they would be extinct a long time ago.

Soldiers in peacetime kill for money. Soldiers invading a foreign land are conquerers. Soldiers defending a homeland are heroes. There is only one scenario where most people find it noble.

Homosexuals are simply a genetic dead end - no children, no future. Adoption is an idea, but that still requires a man and a woman somewhere.

Post secondary students in the US are a priveledged superclass within US society, not everyone can afford $30+G per year. Compared to many parts of the world, they are doubly priveledged, and possibly undeserving (as really they are young and have done nothing *yet* to deserve such priveledges) Excessive partying is seen by some foreigners as Bourgousie blatant excess while other nations are being slaughtered or starving.

Of course the hope is that the students will one day give back and create something wonderful.

[BadDrafter]

Post secondary students in the US are a priveledged superclass within US society, not everyone can afford $30+G per year. Compared to many parts of the world, they are doubly priveledged, and possibly undeserving (as really they are young and have done nothing *yet* to deserve such priveledges) Excessive partying is seen by some foreigners as Bourgousie blatant excess while other nations are being slaughtered or starving.


That is not 100% true. Student debt loads of working class children can be as high as $120K US for a bachelor’s degree thanks to Sallie Mae.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sallie_Mae

It's not uncommon to hear American students who pay off their student loan after a decade or more as saying "my mind belongs to me now, not Sallie Mae!"

When I see Ontarians whining about OSAP it makes me chuckle.

Plus if you start a small college fund when a child is born and at moderate compound interest by the time they are 18 it can be enough to cover most of a degree. That's 18 years to accrue. My uncle did that with his son and saved up enough to put him all the way to a master’s degree in neuroscience at Syracuse University in New York.

But getting back on topic; that's no reason to hurt or kill children or young adults.

[manixc]

watch this guys

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/04/18/worlds-worst-heartless-wingnuts/

man, those heartless bastards, especially the last two. I can't believe they can even say that.


This incident really gets to me. To think that a few more weeks, some of the victims would have graduated and begun their lives in the real world. Just like me.

RIP to victims.



The roomates reported a suicide threat after a visit from the police for stalking a girl. He was taken to the on-campus counselling center for what they remember to be 48 hrs. There was no followup after this incident and the professors reporting him which is where the school dropped the ball IMHO... The line they were all told repeatedly was that he hadn't actually threatened anyone specifically or threatened a specific act of violence so there was nothing that could be done. Sorry, but that's a major copout IMO. He absolutely fit the FBI profile of school shooters....

It's a shame. The warning signs were there and were even reported by the roommates and the professors. But no one did anything. I hate to say it but maybe better gun controls might have prevented this incident.

[Lone_Prodigy]

The roomates reported a suicide threat after a visit from the police for stalking a girl. He was taken to the on-campus counselling center for what they remember to be 48 hrs. There was no followup after this incident and the professors reporting him which is where the school dropped the ball IMHO... The line they were all told repeatedly was that he hadn't actually threatened anyone specifically or threatened a specific act of violence so there was nothing that could be done. Sorry, but that's a major copout IMO. He absolutely fit the FBI profile of school shooters....

Tell that to Maher Arar, or the detainees in Guantanamo Bay. Apparently they fit the "profile" of terrorists, even though some of them may have done nothing wrong.

[CHINAdeals]

Today's headline

At least 166 people killed on Wednesday in series of bombings in Baghdad


not according this (http://news.google.ca/)

or the front page of the globe and mail.

[SergesPlace]

is that even being mentioned on CNN???
That's where i got the headline from


not according this (http://news.google.ca/)

or the front page of the globe and mail.

Baghdad death toll climbs to at least 178


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169833/

[Byrns]

not according this (http://news.google.ca/)



Look again.

[hdom]

Interesting piece of info:

Ismail Ax: The Shooter Was Another 'Son of Sacrifice' (http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=041807B)

...This morning I read that the Virginia Tech shooter died with the name Ismail Ax written in red ink on his arm. The mainstream press doesn't seem to have a clue as to what this might mean. To quote Indiana Jones, "Didn't any of you guys go to Sunday School?"...

[nickia]

Many other countries' PM sent a condolense to G Bush after this incident happened and with the media wide spreading. Personally, I dont give a damn about American. Come on...just 32 ppl died compare to other thousand and million of ppl died Iraq, Israel, ...etc and no body care? What's the big freaking deal of 32 ppl death in American? So, according to the news and media...does that mean those 32 ppl shouldnt have died and who care about other thounsand of ppl died in other countries? I am not racist here as I am just sick of the media and America always thought they are hero or whatever crap.

Well why don't you go to hell? No one cares anyways:rolleyes:

[SergesPlace]

There's now more footage from 2 Swedish exchange students who just arrived there Sunday night and captured everything that unfolded the next day.

[jayisthebest88]

There's now more footage from 2 Swedish exchange students who just arrived there Sunday night and captured everything that unfolded the next day.

do u have a link to those??

[SergesPlace]

do u have a link to those??

I just watched it on cnn so it should be up on the website soon enough

[HockeyGirl]

Yeah theres more news on CNN.. *

*cho was in mental facility in 2005*
he mailed a package to nbc, they said probably between 1st and 2nd shooting*

[SergesPlace]

Yeah theres more news on CNN.. *

*cho was in mental facility in 2005*
he mailed a package to nbc, they said probably between 1st and 2nd shooting*

Cha ching goes the NBC Execs

[HockeyGirl]

yeah, supposely they called authortizies and gave it to them. * who knows if they ( nbc) made a copy already..

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

Interesting piece of info:

Ismail Ax: The Shooter Was Another 'Son of Sacrifice' (http://www.tcsdaily.com/article.aspx?id=041807B)

Or, it was his XBox live name.

Seriously give me a break, I don't see the parallel between shooting people in a school and the story of Abraham being ordered by God to sacrifice his son - and then sparing him at the last moment.

It makes no sense. Unless he is saying God ordered him to do it.

[SergesPlace]

And here come the photos

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070418/070418_vatech_shooterSTILL.hmedium.jpg

[DaVibe]

And here come the photos

http://msnbcmedia4.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/070418/070418_vatech_shooterSTILL.hmedium.jpg

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/?GT1=9246
Among the materials are 23 QuickTime video files showing Cho talking directly to the camera, Capus said. He does not name anyone specifically, but he talks at length about religion and his hatred of the wealthy.

[SergesPlace]

Wow!! watching NBC News right now

[HockeyGirl]

That picture scared me.....

[masterhapposai]

man, those heartless bastards, especially the last two. I can't believe they can even say that.


This incident really gets to me. To think that a few more weeks, some of the victims would have graduated and begun their lives in the real world. Just like me.

RIP to victims.





It's a shame. The warning signs were there and were even reported by the roommates and the professors. But no one did anything. I hate to say it but maybe better gun controls might have prevented this incident.

I hate to say it, but GUN PLACEMENT controls would've entirely prevented this incident.

Someone who's crazy, and on a mission will get guns any way they can.

[Colargo]

This is my last post on this topic as well. :cheesygri


Now it is 5 meters...first it was 15

And yes at 15 meters you might hit someone in sustained fullauto...but not accurately at all...and no guarantees on CNS or Thoracic Cavity strikes.

That's exactly my point, you don't have to be 100% accurate in close quarter battle. When you're in a confined space of 20 metres or less if your objective is to shoot to kill, then if you see a human body moving, you let loose with a stream of bullets and in a confined space of a classroom or a hallway you're bound to hit someone.

We're not talking about SWAT teams who have to be precise when they're firing their weapons for fear of hitting innocent civilians. We're talking about someone like the VT shooter who's objective is to kill as many people as possible and in that instance if he sees someone moving all he has to do if he has a SMG or assault rifle is to let loose with a spray of bullets and he's almost assured of striking someone. It may not be a fatal shot initially, but its definitely enough to wound someone and if the shooter wants to, he can move in for the kill.


Quote:
Show me a video of an AK-47, an FNC or other assault rifle or SMG where a barrel is going wildly all over the place on full-auto.
Viddy of a Selectfire thompson Submachine gun...notice the guy has to lean right in on this gun to stop it from going absolutely everywhere and it still bounces around...45 ACP 230 grain PISTOL bullets from a gun that weighs close to 11 pounds of raw steel and wood...and still lots of muzzle climb and lateral shift(yaw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phjkQ6VofMw

Galil in 5.56mm...notice the rise in muzzle...that inch of travel in any direction is a full 15 inches off trajectory at 15 yards. Which to the left or right is a complete miss if aiming at centre body mass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfPNUy0Ac3c

Here is a guy who obviously has training...using an AK74 while on the move slow walk...and at 15 yards even he is missing. At least 5 or more shots per target before a hit is scored in semiauto only
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxqgOiq6Fz0

AK74SU Krinkov...notice the bounce despite two handed control...again 1 inch is 15 inches at 15 yards. In the last portion he has the gun supported on the magazine...the second last portion shows the gun unsupported and still it bounces everywhere...and that is chambered for the lighter less recoiling 5.45x39mm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onCV_tEPRb8
And another...notice the recoil and muzzle flip...in fullauto the first shot hits aimed...but the next ones miss above the target
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cDUjnTk9aw

The videos you provided here pretty much prove my point. Yes I can see clearly in those videos that the gun muzzle is moving. After each round you can clearly see the lifting and dropping of the gun barrel. But that movement is barely an inch up and down if that, meaning those bullets flying pretty accurately at your target even in full-auto mode. What I've been saying all along is that that movement is so small that at close range a spray of bullets directed at you that is going to hit you, no matter how hard you try to run or dodge them.

Look at this video of a man using an AK-47.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNAohtjG14c&mode=related&search=

He's firing the AK47 on full-auto with drum magazines while holding the gun with ONE ARM at the type of distances that I'm talking about, which is about 10-20 metres.

Even just using one arm, look at where the bullets are hitting the target. The bullets are all pretty much within a 1-2 metre radius. Now imagine him holding onto the AK47 with both hands aimed at the shoulder and shooting down a narrow hallway and you're telling me you can dodge that barrage?

Look at the MP5A2 and other SMGs and assault rifles being fired in this video. The MP5 is the second gun being fired.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNCbi0UGMHA&mode=related&search=

Where's that massive muzzle bounce that you're talking about with the MP5? I see a little movement with the barrel, but that definitely isn't going to affect your aim much at between 5-20 metres in confined spaces of a building. All those guns fired in this video have some bouncing around as your shooting in full-automatic mode, but its just not enough to throw your aim off at 5, 10 or 15 metres.

Peckerwood, you might be knowledgable in firearms, but you're wrong on this count. The guy firing the AK47 in the video I provided is just holding the gun with one arm close to hip level firing at those sandbags and he's able to keep most of those bullets within a few metres of each other. That distance is probably 20 metres or less and if he were holding the gun with both hands and aiming properly are you telling me his aim wouldn't improve?

Again, if you don't believe me, if you're in a small or medium sized room right now, just measure out 5 metres between you and some object. Now imagine that object is a gunman holding an assault rifle aimed right at you. Are you telling me you're not going to get hit if he pulls the trigger and 10-15 bullets fly at you?

Now go into a larger room and measure out 10 metres and imagine the same scenario. Is he going to miss if he shoots at you? Probably not. You may not die after the initial burst, but the fact is you ARE going to get hit and you're probably going down after or do you really mean to tell me you can dodge bullets at 5,10,15 metres where your movement is completely restricted by four walls?

My debate with you has always been that in CONFINED SPACES where combat range maybe 20 metres or less, like a school or an office building etc. that muzzle bounce or barrel climb or anything else that you claim will hinder aim when firing a weapon in full-automatic mode is VERY insignificant when you're trying to hit targets that are forced down narrow hallways or are trapped in classrooms. Again if you're a gunman looking to mow down people how can you possibly miss when your targets are so restricted in their movements as they are when they're trapped in a school or office building and the range of those targets are mostly 20 metres or less?

The fact that you keep saying that you CAN dodge bullets at these very short distances in such confined spaces where walls are everywhere restricting your movement is just incredible and utterly mind boggling.

PS: That pic looks hella menacing!!

[abu_sme]

In Canada when you apply for a firearms license they ask you if you have a history of mental illness. They don't really have any way of verifying if you are telling the truth short of looking at your doctors note. Afterall, most people who have mental illnesses don't get checked into psych wards.

[gordholio]

In Canada when you apply for a firearms license they ask you if you have a history of mental illness. They don't really have any way of verifying if you are telling the truth short of looking at your doctors note. Afterall, most people who have mental illnesses don't get checked into psych wards.

Some people who are diagnosed with a mental illness are more stable (usually with medication) than some who have never been.

[abu_sme]

Some people who are diagnosed with a mental illness are more stable (usually with medication) than some who have never been.

I know (from first hand experience). I declared on my application, but it had no effect on my approval.

[wasserkool]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

Damn....

Jesus..he used hollow point bullet as well. Designed to expand during impact to cause more tissue damage..

[enforcerviper]

Colargo and Peckerwood please take your discussion to msn or email. Everyone please stay on topic.

[UrbanPoet]

That picture scared me.....

me too =(

[Nemodigital]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/?GT1=9246
Among the materials are 23 QuickTime video files showing Cho talking directly to the camera, Capus said. He does not name anyone specifically, but he talks at length about religion and his hatred of the wealthy.
It would have been great if he would have just melted into obscurity as right now his photo is all over the paper... exactly as he wanted.

[HSK]

Who took those photos? Those certainly are not tripod photos.

[God_Anubis]

I heard the killers dad commited suicide.......I dont have any links to it........

Also, alot of korean ppl are trying to transfer outo f that school in fear of getting discriminated against....

According to your opinion (I'm not disagreeing), then a lot of Chinese, Taiwanese, and Burmese, and other Asian visa students in the US would feel a backlash. We're talking about the average American joe who thinks that a famous Muslim character on TV is Apu Nahasapeemapethalon, or that Israeli settlers throw rocks at the president of Russia, Asser Yarafat.

[Panzer505]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/

Damn....

Jesus..he used hollow point bullet as well. Designed to expand during impact to cause more tissue damage..

oops, detective wasserkool found news.

[vladvlad]

I feel sorry for the people that lost their lives.

Sadly society is not learning any lessons from what happened. Cho is being labled as "evil". He was not evil. He was a weak person who was continually "stepped on" by those around him. To protect himself he wore the tough guy persona. Why did he crack? He could not handle the pressure society saddled him with.

Look around you - to those still in school. Are there people that you are making fun of? People you treat negatively because they are different than you? Think about how badly they must be feeling. Some people in this situation kill themselves and others with more anger kill others.

How to prevent stuff like this? Let's all be nicer to one another.
Let's all respect one another a bit more.

A person that has respect and a good life does not do something like this.

I know that most people are superficial and will not think about this because it is easier to blame "the lone gunman" rather than being introspective about their own weaknesses and role.

Discrimination against Chinese and other Asians because of this is a sign of the superficiality and lack of understanding on the part of the "dummies" in society.

[God_Anubis]

I feel sorry for the people that lost their lives.

Sadly society is not learning any lessons from what happened. Cho is being labled as "evil". He was not evil. He was a weak person who was continually "stepped on" by those around him. To protect himself he wore the tough guy persona. Why did he crack? He could not handle the pressure society saddled him with.

Look around you - to those still in school. Are there people that you are making fun of? People you treat negatively because they are different than you? Think about how badly they must be feeling. Some people in this situation kill themselves and others with more anger kill others.

How to prevent stuff like this? Let's all be nicer to one another.
Let's all respect one another a bit more.

A person that has respect and a good life does not do something like this.

I know that most people are superficial and will not think about this because it is easier to blame "the lone gunman" rather than being introspective about their own weaknesses and role.

Discrimination against Chinese and other Asians because of this is a sign of the superficiality and lack of understanding on the part of the "dummies" in society.

boohoo...

-this cold-blooded psychopath killer had 2 supportive parents
-had many people who made attempts at befriending him without any success
-had lenient (or no) justice handed out to him. He didn't get charged with stalking, didn't get charged with bomb threats, didn't get charged with inciting hatred
-had every single opportunity to become successful and get an A+ education from a top US technical school. This is something that millions of prospective young people never get.
-he basically had everything handed out to him on a silver platter and he still blew it.

Please don't play the "blame the bully", "show remorse for the victim" game, because you haven't convinced me of anything. Cho ching has permanently scarred the lives of 1000's of others who were affiliated with the victims.

In my opinion, if Cho Cheng Chi's PR status had been revoked and deported back to Korea much earlier along with his parents (who were directly responsible for his upbringing), this would have never happened. Talk about a $hitty US justice system.

[vladvlad]

Yes - easier to blame him. Make him the "loser" Obvious sign of pain - was he not accepted? was he ridiculed? Why did he feel like this?

"You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," he says, apparently reading from his manifesto. "You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people."

He goes on

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats," says Cho, a South Korean immigrant whose parents work at a dry cleaners in surburban Washington. "Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything."

From the MSNBC article

"According to a doctor’s report accompanying the order, which was obtained by NBC News, Cho was “depressed,” but “his insight and judgment are normal.” The doctor, a clinical psychologist, noted that Cho “denies suicidal ideations.” Cho was released."


Obvious he was sick and we should also feel sorry for him because he was let down by society. He comments on the selfish, superficial American society that he did not fit into - that he was probably ostracized from. The society he needed to "send a message to".


Easiest solution is to label him a psychopathic loser and absolve ourselves of our responsibility.

Think about the people you are nice to.
Think about the people you are nasty to.

Just look at some of the nastiness here on RFD sometimes.
Do you ever think of how your actions affect others?

[Emancipated]

boohoo...

-this cold-blooded psychopath killer had 2 supportive parents
-had many people who made attempts at befriending him without any success
-had lenient (or no) justice handed out to him. He didn't get charged with stalking, didn't get charged with bomb threats, didn't get charged with inciting hatred
-had every single opportunity to become successful and get an A+ education from a top US technical school. This is something that millions of prospective young people never get.
-he basically had everything handed out to him on a silver platter and he still blew it.

Please don't play the "blame the bully", "show remorse for the victim" game, because you haven't convinced me of anything. Cho ching has permanently scarred the lives of 1000's of others who were affiliated with the victims.

In my opinion, if Cho Cheng Chi's PR status had been revoked and deported back to Korea much earlier along with his parents (who were directly responsible for his upbringing), this would have never happened. Talk about a $hitty US justice system.

I didn't realize Rosie O'donell posted here.

[vladvlad]

From what I am reading - it sounds like he took on the role of the "bully" as a self-defense mechanism.

The sunglasses and hoodie which he wore often were a way of hiding from the world.
Why would someone want to hide from the world?

He was different. He was ostracized and marginalized.
He cracked.

[Emancipated]

Yes - easier to blame him. Make him the "loser" Obvious sign of pain - was he not accepted? was he ridiculed? Why did he feel like this?

"You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," he says, apparently reading from his manifesto. "You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people."

He goes on

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats," says Cho, a South Korean immigrant whose parents work at a dry cleaners in surburban Washington. "Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything."

From the MSNBC article

"According to a doctor’s report accompanying the order, which was obtained by NBC News, Cho was “depressed,” but “his insight and judgment are normal.” The doctor, a clinical psychologist, noted that Cho “denies suicidal ideations.” Cho was released."


Obvious he was sick and we should also feel sorry for him because he was let down by society. He comments on the selfish, superficial American society that he did not fit into - that he was probably ostracized from. The society he needed to "send a message to".


Easiest solution is to label him a psychopathic loser and absolve ourselves of our responsibility.

Think about the people you are nice to.
Think about the people you are nasty to.

Just look at some of the nastiness here on RFD sometimes.
Do you ever think of how your actions affect others?

Of coarse he doesn't. He is the same type of people that you criticize about as being society ills. It's the culture. One random massacre isn't going to revolutionize the ideals set into place for generations. Some people would kill their own flesh and blood to get on top. It's a sick society. Osama has been preaching this as well. Unfortunately, I'm sure some of his victims were nice, considerate individuals.

I don't condone his cause, but I would say it's understandable. His method certainly isn't the right way to go about it.

Those guys in Colorado really set forth a juggernaut. Anyone who feels picked on will now think about drastic measures like these and I'm sure it won't be the last time.

Look at what bullying can do; even online. It lead to a man to hang himself.

[vonteego]

I feel sorry for the people that lost their lives.

Sadly society is not learning any lessons from what happened. Cho is being labled as "evil". He was not evil. He was a weak person who was continually "stepped on" by those around him. To protect himself he wore the tough guy persona. Why did he crack? He could not handle the pressure society saddled him with.

Look around you - to those still in school. Are there people that you are making fun of? People you treat negatively because they are different than you? Think about how badly they must be feeling. Some people in this situation kill themselves and others with more anger kill others.

How to prevent stuff like this? Let's all be nicer to one another.
Let's all respect one another a bit more.

A person that has respect and a good life does not do something like this.

I know that most people are superficial and will not think about this because it is easier to blame "the lone gunman" rather than being introspective about their own weaknesses and role.

Discrimination against Chinese and other Asians because of this is a sign of the superficiality and lack of understanding on the part of the "dummies" in society.

I grew up in a mostly-asian neighbourhood. I'm not asian. I was HEAVILY discriminated against for all of my youth by some asians. Most of my best friends are asian.

My point? Discrimination is a two-way street. Yes it's wrong - but don't frigging tell the rest of the world to lay off a particular group unless that group is willing to correct the racist ones among its flock.

[God_Anubis]

Yes - easier to blame him. Make him the "loser" Obvious sign of pain - was he not accepted? was he ridiculed? Why did he feel like this?

"You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," he says, apparently reading from his manifesto. "You thought it was one pathetic boy's life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people."

He goes on

"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats," says Cho, a South Korean immigrant whose parents work at a dry cleaners in surburban Washington. "Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust funds wasn't enough. Your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough. Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything."

From the MSNBC article

"According to a doctor’s report accompanying the order, which was obtained by NBC News, Cho was “depressed,” but “his insight and judgment are normal.” The doctor, a clinical psychologist, noted that Cho “denies suicidal ideations.” Cho was released."


Obvious he was sick and we should also feel sorry for him because he was let down by society. He comments on the selfish, superficial American society that he did not fit into - that he was probably ostracized from. The society he needed to "send a message to".


Easiest solution is to label him a psychopathic loser and absolve ourselves of our responsibility.

Think about the people you are nice to.
Think about the people you are nasty to.

Just look at some of the nastiness here on RFD sometimes.
Do you ever think of how your actions affect others?


You have to be careful with your response...the tone almost sounds as if you're trying to rationalize Cho Seung's murderous rampage.

Millions of people suffer from depression or other mental disorders. Should they also be mimicking Cho Seung's behaviour?

There was an interesting article today in the Toronto Star written by a prominent U of T psychologist. I suggest you read that to get yourself a bit more acquainted and understand why you're using an egregious rationale

[ZenOps]

Those are very normal insights - by anyones standards his words are true. We have become a nation of excess, a certain degree of snobbery and elite-ist. Perhaps the US a little bit more than Canada. But then again, some would say its the american way - "to keep up with the Jones'es" you always have to show your superior side.

Students are young, but no longer innocent by the time they hit post secondary. Far too often a lot of people get trapped into personal pride, which often is seen by others as ego (like getting a 4.0 average and bragging about it)

There is healthy competition, and then there is simply just not giving the other guy a chance. I'd be interested in knowing where in between this guy was. Although in order for him to do this, I'm thinking he had to be pretty far on the one side.

His actions however are completely deplorable and uncalled for.

[civ@uw]

...
truckload of crap
...

In my opinion, if Cho Cheng Chi's PR status had been revoked and deported back to Korea much earlier along with his parents (who were directly responsible for his upbringing), this would have never happened. Talk about a $hitty US justice system.

but you said:


-this cold-blooded psychopath killer had 2 supportive parents


:confused:

[rockthecasbah]

boohoo...

-this cold-blooded psychopath killer had 2 supportive parents
-had many people who made attempts at befriending him without any success
-had lenient (or no) justice handed out to him. He didn't get charged with stalking, didn't get charged with bomb threats, didn't get charged with inciting hatred
-had every single opportunity to become successful and get an A+ education from a top US technical school. This is something that millions of prospective young people never get.
-he basically had everything handed out to him on a silver platter and he still blew it.

Please don't play the "blame the bully", "show remorse for the victim" game, because you haven't convinced me of anything. Cho ching has permanently scarred the lives of 1000's of others who were affiliated with the victims.

In my opinion, if Cho Cheng Chi's PR status had been revoked and deported back to Korea much earlier along with his parents (who were directly responsible for his upbringing), this would have never happened. Talk about a $hitty US justice system.

I think you're looking at the situation with rose tinted glasses. Bullying and external factors (i.e. family support, had his needs met, etc) cannot get the full blame for why he did what he did, yes. But there are also other factors on an individualistic level that we may not be able to comprehend. I don't know what he was thinking or what caused him to do this, nor do you.

For the record, I was watching on CNN and the doctor they use (Sanjay Gupta I think it was) said that it COULD be a result of depression mixed with the medication he was taking for that depression. With some people, the meds can cause a person to be more "hyper" and put into action the violent thoughts in their head. And moreover, with Charles Whitman: The Texas Tower Sniper, he had a biological reason for going nuts because he had a tumor on his brain that very well may have affected his frontal lobes (http://www.news8austin.com/content/news_8_explores/ut_tower_shooting/?ArID=167300&SecID=552)(which affects judgement I believe).

So to put an explanation in such simple terms is asinine. I'm not condoning what he did or saying that he is not at fault. I am simply saying that there could be more to this than "oh should've deported him". Plus, if he was deported, you don't think that the same event could've happened in South Korea? A person who is mentally unsound and psychotic isn't really going to be a whole different individual in a different locale.

And not to mention the "Cho Ching Chi" stuff, which doesn't help your case.

P.s. What article in the Toronto Star today (link please)? I didn't see it/missed it in the paper today.

[Emancipated]

You have to be careful with your response...the tone almost sounds as if you're trying to rationalize Cho Seung's murderous rampage.

Millions of people suffer from depression or other mental disorders. Should they also be mimicking Cho Seung's behaviour?

There was an interesting article today in the Toronto Star written by a prominent U of T psychologist. I suggest you read that to get yourself a bit more acquainted and understand why you're using an egregious rationale

YOu can flaunt your education and cite articles all day long, but the fact remains that society takes pleasure in chewing up weak people and spitting them out all in the name of getting ahead Then they act all surprise when someone snaps and kills an entire office, usually those same people who did the stepping. It's far too enticing for people to pick up a gun and end it like these people. Monkey see, monkey do. You can't turn back the hands of time so may be we all need to be a little more considerate to our fellow brothers and sisters.

[ZenOps]

Why would someone want to hide from the world?

Obviously you can't be a visible minority. Both my grandfathers survived the world by hiding from it, or at least one did (the other got rogue bombed at the end of WWII)

I survive the world by hiding from it. There are only so many people who can survive the world by thriving in it. Even so, eventually they also have to hide from it.

Thing is, many people will not let you thrive. The will not let you have access to the tools, the education, or even basics - such as the ability to grow food and access to water. Its called life and it sucks - some still try to conform, but others do give up - and sometimes when they give up they take out everyone around them if they have the means.

[Emancipated]

And not to mention the "Cho Ching Chi" stuff, which doesn't help your case.

He's suffering a case of Michael Richards Insanity. My intuition tells me he won't see Asians in a favourable light for some time. Just how most hated Muslims (still do to this day) because of 9/11. We're all humans and weak like that.

[vladvlad]

Obviously you can't be a visible minority. Both my grandfathers survived the world by hiding from it, or at least one did (the other got rogue bombed at the end of WWII)

I survive the world by hiding from it. There are only so many people who can survive the world by thriving in it. Even so, eventually they also have to hide from it.

Thing is, many people will not let you thrive. The will not let you have access to the tools, the education, or even basics - such as the ability to grow food and access to water. Its called life and it sucks - some still try to conform, but others do give up - and sometimes when they give up they take out everyone around them if they have the means.

"Life" should not be taken as a "given" that it sucks. Life and society are what we make of it. Life does not have to suck. Life just sucks because we allow the "5% of society that are pricks" rule the system. We should all take responsibility to make life better. This is a far more important thing to fix than global warming.

In our personal lives start with little things such as when you are on the 401 and someone wants to do a lane change, let them do the lane change rather than speeding up to prevent them from changing lanes.

To the rich kids in school - enjoy your wealth but stop flaunting it in everyone's faces. Flaunting your wealth is just a sign of your insecurities because you have nothing else to define yourself as - but unfortunately you make the rest of us feel bad about being "poor". Everyone loses.

I guess in today's society the only ones that win are the good looking superficial types that don't really spend a lot of time thinking about anything.

[masterhapposai]

I feel sorry for the people that lost their lives.

Sadly society is not learning any lessons from what happened. Cho is being labled as "evil". He was not evil. He was a weak person who was continually "stepped on" by those around him. To protect himself he wore the tough guy persona. Why did he crack? He could not handle the pressure society saddled him with.

Look around you - to those still in school. Are there people that you are making fun of? People you treat negatively because they are different than you? Think about how badly they must be feeling. Some people in this situation kill themselves and others with more anger kill others.

How to prevent stuff like this? Let's all be nicer to one another.
Let's all respect one another a bit more.

A person that has respect and a good life does not do something like this.

I know that most people are superficial and will not think about this because it is easier to blame "the lone gunman" rather than being introspective about their own weaknesses and role.

Discrimination against Chinese and other Asians because of this is a sign of the superficiality and lack of understanding on the part of the "dummies" in society.

who said this is a racial issue, and if so why do you protect only asians? that's racist right there

I know you may be trying to lighten the mood with jokes, but it's making you look funny.

A person that has respect and a good life does not do something like this.

Wrong. I suggest not taking psychology of any sort or following that field.






Kids pick on each other to strengthen the will of each other and congregate against others. It teaches solid lessons. Sometimes it gets overboard and that's where adults should step in. If adults are still picking on others, after the "strengthening" phase of childhood is over, you call the police on them, plain and simple.

Done, and it didn't happen, so that's why he went berzerk. He belonged locked up, he was sick mentally possibly from birth.

[ZenOps]

Life does not have to suck. Life just sucks because we allow the "5% of society that are pricks" rule the system.

So why do we allow it? Should we all just rise up and start randomly shooting people? Is the world really ready for it - I don't think so, half of the world cannot feed itself - And here we are in North America trying to save the forests, the animals from being eaten, and burning food for car fuel.

Its probably more like 0.5% anyhow.

[vladvlad]

who said this is a racial issue, and if so why do you protect only asians? that's racist right there

Please read the thread and understand the context. My comment which you call racist is in response to post #463 bu God_Anubis. My comment that discriminating against Asians becuase Cho was Asian would be stupid - but that would be normal for American society.


Kids pick on each other to strengthen the will of each other and congregate against others. It teaches solid lessons. Sometimes it gets overboard and that's where adults should step in. If adults are still picking on others, after the "strengthening" phase of childhood is over, you call the police on them, plain and simple.

Done, and it didn't happen, so that's why he went berzerk. He belonged locked up, he was sick mentally possibly from birth.

You sound like you think we still live in Sparta. "Toughen them up or spit them out"?
We do not live in a society that needs this to survive.
We have evolved far past that.

The only reason we need "strengthening" is because there are still Neanderthals in present day society. These are the pricks that I reference in my post. In a Christian society we should not need "strengthening".

The solution is to be nicer to one another.

[UrbanPoet]

no matter what... theres still gonna be a small % of the population that is just plain evil.

Im just glad that good prevails over evil most the time.

[rockthecasbah]

Also, he probably wasn't just depressed. Or just evil.

Perhaps he was schizo.

Is mass shooting only a matter of paranoia ?

No, because despair contributes to a person's resignation that his lot will not improve. While many mass shooters have depression, many do not. And depression is not what sparks the mass shooting, hopelessness is.


http://abcnews.go.com/Health/VATech/story?id=3050483&page=2
via hotair (http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/18/new-vtech-thread-was-cho-schizophrenic-mean-or-both/)

[neilson]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/04/18/us/19comco-337a.jpg

The inspiration for perhaps the most inexplicable image in the set that Cho Seung-Hui mailed to NBC news on Monday may be a movie from South Korea that won the Gran Prix prize at Cannes Film Festival in 2004.
The poses in the two images are similar, and the plot of the movie, “Oldboy,” seems dark enough to merit at least some further study. Following is The Times’s plot summary:

The film centers on a seemingly ordinary businessman, Dae-su (the terrific Choi Min-sik), who, after being mysteriously imprisoned, goes on an extensive, exhausting rampage, seeking answers and all manner of bloody revenge.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/updates-on-virginia-tech/

[Byrns]

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/04/18/us/19comco-337a.jpg

The inspiration for perhaps the most inexplicable image in the set that Cho Seung-Hui mailed to NBC news on Monday may be a movie from South Korea that won the Gran Prix prize at Cannes Film Festival in 2004.
The poses in the two images are similar, and the plot of the movie, “Oldboy,” seems dark enough to merit at least some further study. Following is The Times’s plot summary:

The film centers on a seemingly ordinary businessman, Dae-su (the terrific Choi Min-sik), who, after being mysteriously imprisoned, goes on an extensive, exhausting rampage, seeking answers and all manner of bloody revenge.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/18/updates-on-virginia-tech/

Oldboy was one seriously violent movie.

[ZenOps]

Would have been more poetic if he was holding an axe or a sickle instead of a hammer.

IMO - I think the point hes trying to make there is that you can use a hammer to both create and destroy.

OT: Looks a little like the "300" scene with the sword too. To create such a striking visual scene - does show that he probably intends to be a martyr to others. Which is scary as this may incite copycats in other states.

[UrbanPoet]

how do you know that he had 2 supportive parents??

some parents know nothing about their kids

some parents don't listen to their kids' cries for help

some parents are abusive

I'm going to guess that the killer was bullied / mistreated by his family & society (at school, church, etc)

Or he had an angry personality- he was just an angry person
- some people are like that (rude, no manners, angry, blame everybody for their problems)

I don't know if the killer was a victim and he became a monster

or if he was born with a bully, raging, anti-social personality

He just seems like a typical angry, rude person that you can meet anywhere

So he won't be the last killer

Of course, there will be other killers

That's life

:arrow:

I also have the sneaking suspicion that he was just pure evil.

[vladvlad]

There was a Hollywood movie about 5-10 years ago about a businessman that goes on a shooting rampage on his walk home after his car breaks down. I can't remember the name of the movie or who starred in it (I am bad with remembering these things). Anyone remember the movie?

Sometimes in Hollywood movies the story and message that comes across is that we feel sympathy for the underdog that breaks and goes postal. The underdog takes revenge on a world that has done him wrong.

[neilson]

There was a Hollywood movie about 5-10 years ago about a businessman that goes on a shooting rampage on his walk home after his car breaks down. I can't remember the name of the movie or who starred in it (I am bad with remembering these things). Anyone remember the movie?

Sometimes in Hollywood movies the story and message that comes across is that we feel sympathy for the underdog that breaks and goes postal. The underdog takes revenge on a world that has done him wrong.

Falling Down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_Down

[vladvlad]

I also have the sneaking suspicion that he was just pure evil.

What do you base that on?
Was he killing puppies since kindergarten?

You almost sound like you got a doctorate from the George Bush School of Sociology and Anthropology.

People never cease to amaze me.

Falling Down: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_Down

Damn yo are fast. Thanks.

The movie score a 7.3/10 with 22,000 votes on IMDB
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106856/

That means a lot of people liked the movie.

Seems in the theaters people like the idea of the underdog fighting back.
The powerless feeling empowered.

[ZenOps]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falling_Down

This one?

[gorf]

There was a Hollywood movie about 5-10 years ago about a businessman that goes on a shooting rampage on his walk home after his car breaks down. I can't remember the name of the movie or who starred in it (I am bad with remembering these things). Anyone remember the movie?

Sometimes in Hollywood movies the story and message that comes across is that we feel sympathy for the underdog that breaks and goes postal. The underdog takes revenge on a world that has done him wrong.


Michael Douglas - Falling Down ??

Edit, crap you guys are fast! lol!

[UrbanPoet]

What do you base that on?
Was he killing puppies since kindergarten?

You almost sound like you got a doctorate from the George Bush School of Sociology and Anthropology.

People never cease to amaze me.



Damn yo are fast. Thanks.

people were saying how he had a perfect life yet still turned up this way.
mental illness and a combo of other things i guess...
But maybe later down the road they'll find out he got touched as a child. who knows!

[siriuskao]

In my opinion, if Cho Cheng Chi's PR status had been revoked and deported back to Korea much earlier along with his parents (who were directly responsible for his upbringing), this would have never happened. Talk about a $hitty US justice system.

So how did the US society/or underlying cause that turned this particular individual into a psychopath? I suspect he was normal when he was 8 years old (when he immigrated with his parents from Korea). Deporting him back to Korea does not solve the underlying problem, another white/brown/black guy can take his place, at that time, where do we deport them? (England? Mexico? or Africa?)

[MasterXan]

he had a "perfect" life? which article told us that?

And where the hell are the parents? i'm still wondering about his relationship with his family.

[neilson]

he had a "perfect" life? which article told us that?

And where the hell are the parents? i'm still wondering about his relationship with his family.

Yes, where the hell are the shooter's parents and sister? They ought to be coming out on the media to express their dismay at their son's actions.

Their silence is extremely insulting.

[UrbanPoet]

he had a "perfect" life? which article told us that?

And where the hell are the parents? i'm still wondering about his relationship with his family.

it is speculation for now. I havent heard much about HIM being the one being bullied or anything like that.

[vladvlad]

Another movie = Carrie
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074285/

Plot Outline: A mousy and abused girl with telekinetic powers gets pushed too far on one special night.

How many people cheered when Carrie struck back?


Yes, where the hell are the shooter's parents and sister? They ought to be coming out on the media to express their dismay at their son's actions.
Their silence is extremely insulting.

If YOUR son did this - would you not be in SHOCK?
Would your instinct not be to hide?
They lost a son as well.
Not only is their son dead - but he is now "Evil Incarnate".

Come one - think.

it is speculation for now. I havent heard much about HIM being the one being bullied or anything like that.

UrbanPoet - I thought Poets are supposed to be more Empathic

Some of Cho's comments
You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience," he says, + "Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats," Those weren't enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs.

Obviously someone hurt him - and not just one person. He sounds like someone that was knocked down early in life adn was angry at the world.

[Peckerwood]

Sorry, but I have absolutely no pity for this guy whatsoever.

He should have been shot earlier...and preferably by his victims while in the process of attempting his murderous psychopathic behaviour.

2+1...nothing less

[neilson]

Another movie = Carrie
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074285/

Plot Outline: A mousy and abused girl with telekinetic powers gets pushed too far on one special night.

How many people cheered when Carrie struck back?




If YOUR son did this - would you not be in SHOCK?
Would your instinct not be to hide?
They lost a son as well.
Not only is their son dead - but he is now "Evil Incarnate".

Come one - think.

Their child's "Evil" is their fault. Either the parents could've been better in treating or institutionalizing their child, or the parents themselves were responsible for abusing their child. One way or another, I have no sympathy for these parents. You might as well call his mom Rosemary.

[gillianchung]

i just finished the game DEAD RISING. i couldn't even finish it when this happened. it was just too sick.

this guy reminds me of the "psychopaths" in the game, people who have lost their minds in the mall and tried to kill eachother.
never imagine that i would be playing this game and then something like this would happen. it's really sick and have made me feel really sickened and sad for the innocent people.

one of the pictures of him pretending to be "neo" in matrix is really disgusting and sick. people you may meet that are "wierd" like this guy, must be reported.

[gorf]

Yes, where the hell are the shooter's parents and sister? They ought to be coming out on the media to express their dismay at their son's actions.



I heard on CNN that they were in hiding. But who knows where they are, apparently the parents are shocked and embarrassed.

Some talking head shrink on CNN also mentioned that they thought that Cho was sexually abused and that being the reason for all the sexual innuendo and distorted views in his writings. I read the one play of his and it seems possible, the play is just craziness.

I still can't believe how calculated this horrific massacre is, its just unbelievable.

[MasterXan]

it is speculation for now. I havent heard much about HIM being the one being bullied or anything like that.

after watching his video 2 times, i'm sure him having a near "perfect" life isn't far from the truth. He even shot one of his videos in a car and maybe he owns it.

And another thing, where did he shoot the other videos? the ones that weren't in the car. was it in his dorm? or in the dorm hallways? if it is, where were the other people? so many unanswered questions...

[vladvlad]

Their child's "Evil" is their fault. Either the parents could've been better in treating or institutionalizing their child, or the parents themselves were responsible for abusing their child. One way or another, I have no sympathy for these parents. You might as well call his mom Rosemary.

Hmmm - do you think that is a good attitude to have? Do you know anything about the parents? They sound like hard-working parents doing everything they can to send their son off to a good school. Korean fathers stereotypically are not the most emotionally supportive.

How much of the real YOU did your parents know?

Knee jerk opinions and mob mentality like this are part of what is wrong with society. Sounds just like CNN "journalism".

one of the pictures of him pretending to be "neo" in matrix is really disgusting and sick. people you may meet that are "wierd" like this guy, must be reported.

Who you going to report to?
You going to report everyone that is "weird"?

Maybe we should report people that play "Dead Rising" - there must be something wrong with people that play this kind of game and fantasize.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c8/Deadrising_boxart.jpg/250px-Deadrising_boxart.jpg

[ZenOps]

I'm getting the feeling this rampage could have been a lot worse.

He didn't get shot by security afterall, he shot himself in the end (probably with his last bullet) Had he the ability to go back to the dorm room to get more ammunition a third time (if there was any left) it might have gone on for quite a bit longer.

[gillianchung]

Cho's behaviour was "wierd", it had red lights all over. Did you read the 2 plays, Richard McBeef and Mr. Brownstone. I suggest you do. There are people out there that fantasize violence, sick, sexual violence as displayed in the plays. You don't have those unless you've gone through some trauma, whether in the family or outside.

Dead rising was something I brought up as a coincidence. The game is very violent, and fun in a sick sense, but it's tragic when something in reality happens. In no way did I mention reporting people who play this game, but people who write plays, stalk girls, and have been reported to police before, have serious mental problems.

Those are the people that should be reported and taken seriously. It's not a joke.



Hmmm - do you think that is a good attitude to
have? Do you know anything about the parents? They sound like hard-working parents doing everything they can to send their son off to a good school. Korean fathers stereotypically are not the most emotionally supportive.

How much of the real YOU did your parents know?

Knee jerk opinions and mob mentality like this are part of what is wrong with society. Sounds just like CNN "journalism".



Who you going to report to?
You going to report everyone that is "weird"?

Maybe we should report people that play "Dead Rising" - there must be something wrong with people that play this kind of game and fantasize.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c8/Deadrising_boxart.jpg/250px-Deadrising_boxart.jpg

[gillianchung]

I'm getting the feeling this rampage could have been a lot worse.

He didn't get shot by security afterall, he shot himself in the end (probably with his last bullet) Had he the ability to go back to the dorm room to get more ammunition a third time (if there was any left) it might have gone on for quite a bit longer.

the only positive was he didn't have an assault rifle. but there aren't anything positive in this event, it's one sick incident that is simply unbelievable.

[gillianchung]

the most surprising thing i found was when NBC reported the package, there was nothing about his parents in his video. i find it odd. as well as the interviews with the roommates, no visitors or family. there seems to be zero connection. no confession or statement on what actually caused his breakdown....yet his plays leave so much mystery.

from the both plays he written, there was one underlying meaning besides all the violence, which is victimization. richard being victimized and then killing in mcbeef, and the teenagers vowing to kill mr. brownstone and in the end losing the jackpot because of him.

i agree, he likes to fill his sentences with profanity and violence, and it is very disturbing. only after i read it do i finally understanding the "disturbing" nature as reported on tv.

[civ@uw]

Cho's behaviour was "wierd", it had red lights all over. Did you read the 2 plays, Richard McBeef and Mr. Brownstone. I suggest you do. There are people out there that fantasize violence, sick, sexual violence as displayed in the plays.

Guess we better round up all the writers and directors in Hollywood in that case.


Dead rising was something I brought up as a coincidence. The game is very violent, and fun in a sick sense, but it's tragic when something in reality happens. In no way did I mention reporting people who play this game, but people who write plays, stalk girls, and have been reported to police before, have serious mental problems.


Inane.

[ZenOps]

His writings are actually very weak and tame compared to a Tarantino script.

[ZenOps]

Actually I was kind of thinking that he might have had a story from his 8th or younger years. Would have made a hell of a story - if say his brother or sister got blown up on a US landmine in Korea.

But it looks like just a case of either plain insanity - or the US system creating yet another monster (The US creates monsters all the time, but not usually through the education system)

[CHINAdeals]

Their child's "Evil" is their fault. Either the parents could've been better in treating or institutionalizing their child, or the parents themselves were responsible for abusing their child. One way or another, I have no sympathy for these parents. You might as well call his mom Rosemary.

lets not jump the gun here...you're claims may be just as founded as the 'killer is from shanghai visa student' claims. :S

sure much of the responsibility lies upon the parents..but at the same time..kids 'grow up' and learn to think from themselves..a parent can't 'control' their children..they must choose on their own..and cho sure did..but hey i'm not saying the parents aren't to blame..but saying they abused their child etc..its a little much..and i totally agree with the other poster's point..complete silence from their parents doesn't just mean they are insulting everyone and withholding judgment..

it could mean a lotta things.but again speculation.

the most surprising thing i found was when NBC reported the package, there was nothing about his parents in his video. i find it odd. as well as the interviews with the roommates, no visitors or family. there seems to be zero connection. no confession or statement on what actually caused his breakdown....yet his plays leave so much mystery.

from the both plays he written, there was one underlying meaning besides all the violence, which is victimization. richard being victimized and then killing in mcbeef, and the teenagers vowing to kill mr. brownstone and in the end losing the jackpot because of him.

i agree, he likes to fill his sentences with profanity and violence, and it is very disturbing. only after i read it do i finally understanding the "disturbing" nature as reported on tv.

click edit :S

yah the vids make him seem crazy but not like 'over the top' crazy..i mean obviously still literrate to articulate sentences..one nbc newscaster was like..his sentences illegible..laced with profanities. ahh.

[eightyeight]

Off-topic:

IMO, the title of this thread should be 32 dead, not 33.

The gunman shouldn't be counted.

[drucillica]

Off-topic:

IMO, the title of this thread should be 32 dead, not 33.

The gunman shouldn't be counted.

Last I checked he was dead too

[manixc]

No amount of bullying or abuse justify the killing of 32 people. This is real life, not a movie like Carrie or Falling Down (good movie btw).

And I can't believe some of you are blaming the parents. Parents can't control completely how their children grow up, not to mention the fact that people can change in a short time.

[HSK]

Parents can't control completely how their children grow up, not to mention the fact that people can change in a short time.

Especially when the law wont allow university officials to tell parents their son is psychotic. (http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou070418_jj_parentnotification.20f21b23.html)

Dont blame the parents. The kid lived on campus .In university parents have no idea what's happening. They have no idea what you're writing. They have no idea how many friends you have. They have no idea if you're bullied. If the school failed to stop him what good could his parents do from home?

[gorf]

:arrow:


Can I ask what's with the arrow's?? :confused: And why the different directions?

[ItechJester]

anybody else wonder if we are giving the killer exactly what he wanted?

everytime something similiar to this occurs, however tragic and disturbing, the media showers the killers with attention (even if they are dead).

he obviously wanted attention, he sent a package to NBC!!!

everyone describes him as disturbed, stuck to himself etc, when all he wanted was a little bit of attention. well he certainly has it now, doesn't he?

i think that all this media attention will perpetuate the problem, just leading to more incidences like this in the future...

it's a tricky issue, needing to report the news, all the public interest, but not wanting to encourage this type of behaviour in the future

[dx1997]

anybody else wonder if we are giving the killer exactly what he wanted?

everytime something similiar to this occurs, however tragic and disturbing, the media showers the killers with attention (even if they are dead).

he obviously wanted attention, he sent a package to NBC!!!

everyone describes him as disturbed, stuck to himself etc, when all he wanted was a little bit of attention. well he certainly has it now, doesn't he?

i think that all this media attention will perpetuate the problem, just leading to more incidences like this in the future...

it's a tricky issue, needing to report the news, all the public interest, but not wanting to encourage this type of behaviour in the future


Kinda exactly how I feel. After the first few days, the only thing I'm gonna focus on is the victims. Very sad to see lives ended like that. They are the only people I want to know about.

Now that the killer has been identified, well, I no longer give a damn about him. I refuse to let this guy get anymore publicity then he has gotten, which has been way too much.

[john widow]

Hey, if you've seen the pic of him from the msn.com homepage, he has that walky-talky, n all on him. Which is totally useless to him because he went solo. That means, he's trying to look a lot cooler than he is.

[Bazooka Joe]

Kids pick on each other to strengthen the will of each other and congregate against others. It teaches solid lessons. Sometimes it gets overboard and that's where adults should step in. If adults are still picking on others, after the "strengthening" phase of childhood is over, you call the police on them, plain and simple.

Done, and it didn't happen, so that's why he went berzerk. He belonged locked up, he was sick mentally possibly from birth.

In my time at highschool there were 2 kids who killed themselves - both had been bullied. I guess that means that there were "solid lessons" learned?

[Beradon]

Sorry, but I have absolutely no pity for this guy whatsoever.

He should have been shot earlier...and preferably by his victims while in the process of attempting his murderous psychopathic behaviour.

2+1...nothing lessagreed. The only regret I have is that the police didn't get to him before he took his own life. Would love to see this turd get tortured in prison everyday until he gets shanked by his fellow inmates.

[YnD]

Displaying the pictures 100x of times on CNN will only give the general society another reason to fear asians (koreans specifically) just like they do for black thugs.

[vladvlad]

Kinda exactly how I feel. After the first few days, the only thing I'm gonna focus on is the victims. Very sad to see lives ended like that. They are the only people I want to know about.

Now that the killer has been identified, well, I no longer give a damn about him. I refuse to let this guy get anymore publicity then he has gotten, which has been way too much.

Bury your head in the sand and what will you learn?

You prefer to be the victim than to think you (metaphorically) are truly the victimizer.

[Beradon]

Sooner we stop discussing the clown the sooner we can start honoring the victims:

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/us/20070418_VICTIMS_GRAPHIC.html


Every one of them had promising and fulfilling lives. Let's not forget about them.

[vladvlad]

Noone said that we should not honor the victims.
But Cho is also a victim of society.

He should be remembered and mourned as well.

[basketball]

Bury your head in the sand and what will you learn?

You prefer to be the victim than to think you (metaphorically) are truly the victimizer.

but isn't this the reason why these people start killing in the first place? to get the publicity? It's a guaranteed fact that if you kill more than 2 or 3 students, you will get a lot of air time...And they even put his VIDEOs up there!, WTH, might as well tell all other "soon-to be mass killers" to go on a killing spree and send a video.

[basketball]

Noone said that we should not honor the victims.
But Cho is also a victim of society.

He should be remembered and mourned as well.

AND that's exactly why he killed 32 innocent students, so he will be remembered and mourned!

[Beradon]

Noone said that we should not honor the victims.
But Cho is also a victim of society.

He should be remembered and mourned as well.Cho was no victim. His selfishness got the better of him. People will remember him as a turd. I would have pity him if he only took his own life and not the others.

[ZenOps]

I dunno. Everyone has their reasons for doing something like this.

Burying your head in the sand is definitely the wrong thing though. I mean really how are we supposed to avoid or prevent things if we can't properly identify the warning smoke signs. Supposedly this guy was giving out plenty of warning signs years before this incident.

Its sort of like Hitler (if you want to make that comparison) He gave out tons of warning signs before he decided to kill tens of millions around him. What can be learned from it? I'm not sure, but at least next time people might be a little better prepared and can mitigate the damage.

To say that some people are just "evil" and leave it at that means we will never have a plan to deal with it.

BTW: Shouldn't this be in the political discussion sub-forum?

[bigdaddyyc]

Cho was no victim. His selfishness got the better of him. People will remember him as a turd. I would have pity him if he only took his own life and not the others.

yup, but I'll remember him as a douchebag

[Firebot]

Noone said that we should not honor the victims.
But Cho is also a victim of society.

He should be remembered and mourned as well.

********. The last thing people should be doing is treating him as a martyr, and that by doing what he did, you too could become famous and get wall to wall coverage by the media. The media should never have released what he sent to MSNBC.

[kiasu]

I am sure this kind of incident will happen again in the future....may b there's someone out there watching this news...and there's no way to prevent...unless guns are banned 100%...just be alert of your surrounding....

[gordholio]

Hero Israeli teacher killed saving lives in VA Tech shootings
Laurie Copans - Associated Press Writer OneNewsNow.com April 17, 2007

JERUSALEM - The e-mails arrived soon after Marlena Librescu learned her husband had been shot to death - from students telling how he barricaded the doorway of his Virginia Tech classroom and saved their lives.
advertisement

Liviu Librescu, an Israeli engineering and math lecturer, was one of several foreign victims of Monday's shootings, which left 32 people dead, plus the gunman - South Korean national Cho Seung-Hui, 23.

"My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Librescu's son, Joe Librescu, said Tuesday in a telephone interview from his home outside of Tel Aviv. "Students started opening windows and jumping out."

Also among the victims was G.V. Loganathan, a 51-year-old engineering professor from India, his brother G.V. Palanivel said from the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu. Peruvian student Daniel Perez Cueva, 21, was also killed while in his French class, said his mother, Betty Cueva.

Loganathan, who was born in the southern Indian city of Chennai, had been a professor at Virginia Tech since 1982.

"For us it was like an electric shock. We've totally collapsed today," his brother said. "Our parents are elderly and have broken down completely."

Librescu, 76, had been a professor at Virginia Tech for 20 years and was widely respected in his field, his son said.

"His work was his life in a sense," Joe Librescu said. "That was a good place for him to practice his research."

Librescu and his wife immigrated to Israel from Romania in 1978, then moved to Virginia in 1985 for a sabbatical and ended up staying, said Joe Librescu, who himself studied at the school from 1989-1994.

The academic community in Romania also was mourning Librescu's death.

"It is a great loss," said Ecaterina Andronescu, rector of the Polytechnic University in Bucharest, where Librescu graduated with a degree in mechanics and aviation construction in 1953. "We have immense consideration for the way he reacted and defended his students with his life."

At the university, people placed flowers on a table holding his picture and a lit candle. "We remember him as a great specialist in aeronautics. He left behind hundreds of prestigious papers," said professor Nicolae Serban Tomescu.

Librescu, who specialized in composite structures and aeroelasticity, published extensively and received numerous awards for his work. He received a doctorate from the Bucharest-based Academy of Sciences in 1969, and an honorary degree from the Bucharest Polytechnic University in 2000.

He also received several NASA grants and taught courses at the University "La Sapienza" in Rome and at the Tel Aviv University in Israel.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/images/stories/2007/LiviuLibrescu.jpg

[vrus]

********. The last thing people should be doing is treating him as a martyr, and that by doing what he did, you too could become famous and get wall to wall coverage by the media. The media should never have released what he sent to MSNBC.

not as a martyr, just as a special case that needed help.

[wasserkool]

not as a martyr, just as a special case that needed help.

YEs, it should be reported in full. AFter looking at the manifesto, one can realize that someone must have failed in large either at the university or societal level.

It looks like the movie The Ring where it takes years of accumulated anger, hatred or oppresion to drive a person to such extreme. AFter the release of the package, i think the next point is figure out what exactly are the driving force behind his motives, and take the neccesary steps to correct it. I am very sure the same driving force is affected many many similar people like him but the have not reached the tipping point yet.

[vladvlad]

but isn't this the reason why these people start killing in the first place? to get the publicity? It's a guaranteed fact that if you kill more than 2 or 3 students, you will get a lot of air time...And they even put his VIDEOs up there!, WTH, might as well tell all other "soon-to be mass killers" to go on a killing spree and send a video.

Like he benefits in any way? HE IS DEAD.
There is no profit in being famous after you are dead.

Think about it for more then 3 seconds.

********. The last thing people should be doing is treating him as a martyr, and that by doing what he did, you too could become famous and get wall to wall coverage by the media. The media should never have released what he sent to MSNBC.

Best to vilify and demonize him without understanding him.
Bush will probably say he is part of the "Axis of Evil"
That is the easiest thing to do.
Absolve ourselves (society) of any responsibility.

[vladvlad]

Hero Israeli teacher killed saving lives in VA Tech shootings
Librescu and his wife immigrated to Israel from Romania in 1978, then moved to Virginia in 1985 for a sabbatical and ended up staying, said Joe Librescu, who himself studied at the school from 1989-1994.

The academic community in Romania also was mourning Librescu's death.


Why is this guys Hero Israeli Teacher?

He is Romanian - he grew up in Romania and look at his Romanian name.
He was in Israel only for 7 years.
He was in US for 21 years.

Why should Israel take credit for this man?

[SergesPlace]

NBC under fire over tapes

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/204984

[Byrns]

Like he benefits in any way? HE IS DEAD.
There is no profit in being famous after you are dead.

Think about it for more then 3 seconds.


The profit is for those who would copy his actions, and they all want to live in infamy as well. If not to get the publicity, why else would he send all that crap to NBC? This guy was the ultimate attention *****.

My sorrow is reserved for the victims and not this pathetic little man who is no better than the terrorist who blows himself up on a bus.

[manixc]

Like he benefits in any way? HE IS DEAD.
There is no profit in being famous after you are dead.

Think about it for more then 3 seconds.



Best to vilify and demonize him without understanding him.
Bush will probably say he is part of the "Axis of Evil"
That is the easiest thing to do.
Absolve ourselves (society) of any responsibility.

what is there to understand? he was mentally unstable.

society has little responsibility because he's not the first one to be bullied or feel alone or whatever that he felt and most likely not the last, yet not everyone of those people decide to shoot other people, that and that alone is his decision.

[Byrns]

NBC under fire over tapes

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/204984

As they should be. They're feeding the crazies, and probably push someone else to copy him. Cho was a fan of Dylan and Eric (Columbine Shooters).

[ZenOps]

yet not everyone of those people decide to shoot other people, that and that alone is his decision.

Problem is.. That as one person decides to cross the line, many more may be approaching that line because of the same factors that made that one person cross the line in the first place, just not to that degree - yet.

I get the feeling there are a lot more people right at that line than anyone would be willing to admit.

"Its like popcorn on the stove. Everything seems fine for a while, and then there is always always the first one to pop, thats the warning sign to turn down the heat or you might just have everyone going off." < Cant remember who said it.

[Lone_Prodigy]

vladvlad, are you a troll or something? I can't believe you would attempt to rationalize the gunman's actions and blame society for failing him.

We live in a society of "me, myself, and I." Take care of yourself first before attempting to help out anyone else. I deplore people who expect handouts at every single opportunity. I hate charities with their absurd "administrative fees."

Yeah I bury my head in the sand, because reading about how messed up society is will drive me to depression. It's just sad, really, the depths that humanity has sunk to. I'm just going to live my own life, make my own opinions, and keep my own counsel. After all, I barely make enough money to support myself. I don't have the time to concern myself with the travails of the world.

Believe me, you need a healthy dose of cynicism if you ever want to live a decent life. It's just insane out there.

Yeah, call me heartless, ignorant, brainwashed by the media. The fact is, every day I see and hear things that just make me shake my head in disgust and disappointment. Life's experiences don't make the news.

[Anessa]

Comedian Chris Rock used to do a good stand-up routine about the Columbine massacre. "Everybody wants to know what the kids was listening to," he'd say, referring to the hysterical media handwringing that followed the 1999 shooting spree. "What kind of music was they listening to? Or what kind of movies was they watching? Who gives a f*** what they was watching? Whatever happened to crazy? What, you can't be crazy no more? Did we eliminate 'crazy' from the dictionary? F*** the records! F*** the movies! They was crazy!"

[basketball]

"In releasing the images on their nightly network broadcast last night, NBC officials explained their decision, saying it was a compelling story but they understood that they were in some respects accommodating the killer’s wishes by giving him such a platform."


WTH, they understood that but decided that their ratings are important than that anyways. Somehow, I'm NOT surprised!

Not saying that we should bury our head in the ground, but give this guy the same treatment as we do when the terrorists blew up the Twin towers...because I still fail to see the difference between this and 9/11, a group of crazy people killing 2000+ innocent citizens vs. a one crazy person killing 32 innocent students...

[manixc]

Problem is.. That as one person decides to cross the line, many more may be approaching that line because of the same factors that made that one person cross the line in the first place, just not to that degree - yet.

I get the feeling there are a lot more people right at that line than anyone would be willing to admit.

"Its like popcorn on the stove. Everything seems fine for a while, and then there is always always the first one to pop, thats the warning sign to turn down the heat or you might just have everyone going off." < Cant remember who said it.

yeah, I am worried about copy cat as well.

[manixc]

"In releasing the images on their nightly network broadcast last night, NBC officials explained their decision, saying it was a compelling story but they understood that they were in some respects accommodating the killer’s wishes by giving him such a platform."


WTH, they understood that but decided that their ratings are important than that anyways. Somehow, I'm NOT surprised!

Not saying that we should bury our head in the ground, but give this guy the same treatment as we do when the terrorists blew up the Twin towers...because I still fail to see the difference between this and 9/11, a group of crazy people killing 2000+ innocent citizens vs. a one crazy person killing 32 innocent students...


I hope they do a good tribute show of all the victims or something, to truly show how much has been lost.

[gordholio]

Why is this guys Hero Israeli Teacher?

He is Romanian - he grew up in Romania and look at his Romanian name.
He was in Israel only for 7 years.
He was in US for 21 years.

Why should Israel take credit for this man?

Way to miss the whole point of the article, dude. :confused:

[xsighted]

http://xsighted.googlepages.com/gunmanNews.JPG

this is where google news categorizes this now ..

[majesus]

Many people are blowing this way out of proportion. He killed over 30 people and everyone blames everything about the reasons why. People blame society, culture, race, the school, the movies, the music. People even think he did it for enteratinment and fame. You and I live in the same world as he does... Yet we aren't at his level. Why are we blaming everything?

The person lost it, he was mentally troubled. You can see it from the videos.
What is really sad is that we don't step back and look at it to see how we can learn from this, instead we accuse everything. I watched the vidoes and he extremely mad at someone. He blames someone (or some people) about being greedy and hurting him. I wonder who or what he is refering too? I am really curious to know what mad him so angry that he felt it "right" to do this?
EDIT: I just read this (http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=14126002&p=y4yz6x48&n=14126090&x=): It describes him in high school and how he was picked on.

The sad thing is nothing will change. It will be in the spot light for a while, then we will move on. They are disturbed people out there. Cho isn't the first, nor the last. The problem is we don't have a way to help these people, until they do something drastic like this... Time and time again, his teachers and people who knew him said he was disturbed and depressed. There was warning signs, they tried to help, but how much can one do?

[Paranoidandroid]

Cho was no victim. His selfishness got the better of him. People will remember him as a turd. I would have pity him if he only took his own life and not the others.

Why do you sound like you understand his whole life situation? How are you so sure he wasn't a victim? Although his actions weren't justified, it doesn't make him any less of a victim than he could've been. These students/profs who act like they knew him are just joining the herd to make him look like the psycho who wouldn't give his friends a chance. If he was as depressed the media is making him out to be, I doubt anyone tried to approach him.

[wasserkool]

Why do you sound like you understand his whole life situation? How are you so sure he wasn't a victim? Although his actions weren't justified, it doesn't make him any less of a victim than he could've been. These students/profs who act like they knew him are just joining the herd to make him look like the psycho who wouldn't give his friends a chance. If he was as depressed the media is making him out to be, I doubt anyone tried to approach him.

True, he can be considered as a victim. Although his actions are unjustifiable. But like I said, years of anger, hatred and being stepped upon will drive alot of people over the edge. And different people respond differently.

If what the news said is true and his action is caused by years of bullying and discrimination, then let this be a lesson for ANY CURRENT Bullies. Let this be a lesson for the authority figures in the educational system that if bullying is left unchecked, or only reprimanded with minor punishment, will result in devastating punishment like this.

[abu_sme]

Why do you sound like you understand his whole life situation? How are you so sure he wasn't a victim? Although his actions weren't justified, it doesn't make him any less of a victim than he could've been.


Perhaps you are right, it is hard to understand what situations everyone is in

These students/profs who act like they knew him are just joining the herd to make him look like the psycho who wouldn't give his friends a chance. If he was as depressed the media is making him out to be, I doubt anyone tried to approach him.

"Why do you sound like you understand their whole life situation? "


So now you say one thing, yet in the very next sentence you state that the profs and people hwo know him have an agenda to make him seem psycho. You really don't know what these poeple are going through. Besides there is a paper trail showing all of this, unlike many of the words that are being uttered to defend his actions.

Cho was a victim, but the fact was, every stop was pulled to try and help him. He was referred to a mental health center, profs tried to help him. Almost every lever that can be used to help him was, yet he didn't accept the help. It is hard to say whetehr he was schizophrenic, I don't think he was, but it is really up to the investigators to find out and report it.

That has to be one

[d0fuz]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=g0smFC_0Bn4

Interesting view...

[Nemodigital]

Let this be a lesson for the authority figures in the educational system that if bullying is left unchecked, or only reprimanded with minor punishment, will result in devastating punishment like this.
There is nothing to justify what he did and you are just regurgitating his views by posting this 'let this be a lesson'. This should be a 'let this be a lesson' for gun control not anti-bullying.

[God_Anubis]

Hero Israeli teacher killed saving lives in VA Tech shootings
Laurie Copans - Associated Press Writer OneNewsNow.com April 17, 2007

JERUSALEM - The e-mails arrived soon after Marlena Librescu learned her husband had been shot to death - from students telling how he barricaded the doorway of his Virginia Tech classroom and saved their lives.
advertisement

Liviu Librescu, an Israeli engineering and math lecturer, was one of several foreign victims of Monday's shootings, which left 32 people dead, plus the gunman - South Korean national Cho Seung-Hui, 23.

"My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Librescu's son, Joe Librescu, said Tuesday in a telephone interview from his home outside of Tel Aviv. "Students started opening windows and jumping out."

Also among the victims was G.V. Loganathan, a 51-year-old engineering professor from India, his brother G.V. Palanivel said from the southern Indian state of Tamil Nadu. Peruvian student Daniel Perez Cueva, 21, was also killed while in his French class, said his mother, Betty Cueva.

Loganathan, who was born in the southern Indian city of Chennai, had been a professor at Virginia Tech since 1982.

"For us it was like an electric shock. We've totally collapsed today," his brother said. "Our parents are elderly and have broken down completely."

Librescu, 76, had been a professor at Virginia Tech for 20 years and was widely respected in his field, his son said.

"His work was his life in a sense," Joe Librescu said. "That was a good place for him to practice his research."

Librescu and his wife immigrated to Israel from Romania in 1978, then moved to Virginia in 1985 for a sabbatical and ended up staying, said Joe Librescu, who himself studied at the school from 1989-1994.

The academic community in Romania also was mourning Librescu's death.

"It is a great loss," said Ecaterina Andronescu, rector of the Polytechnic University in Bucharest, where Librescu graduated with a degree in mechanics and aviation construction in 1953. "We have immense consideration for the way he reacted and defended his students with his life."

At the university, people placed flowers on a table holding his picture and a lit candle. "We remember him as a great specialist in aeronautics. He left behind hundreds of prestigious papers," said professor Nicolae Serban Tomescu.

Librescu, who specialized in composite structures and aeroelasticity, published extensively and received numerous awards for his work. He received a doctorate from the Bucharest-based Academy of Sciences in 1969, and an honorary degree from the Bucharest Polytechnic University in 2000.

He also received several NASA grants and taught courses at the University "La Sapienza" in Rome and at the Tel Aviv University in Israel.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/images/stories/2007/LiviuLibrescu.jpg

May the Lord bless him.

[Paranoidandroid]

So now you say one thing, yet in the very next sentence you state that the profs and people hwo know him have an agenda to make him seem psycho.
From what I am reading and hearing from the media, this DOES seem to be the case. He is constantly being labeled as 'mean', 'creepy', 'loner', 'not a man' in articles. Perhaps 'psycho' isn't a proper term. They are trying to make a monster out of him.

I'm not trying to defend his actions, I'm just pointing out the fact that people are putting a spin on this situation when they haven't even figured out what went wrong. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he is really everything people are labeling him as, but for now I don't think people shouldn't jump to these conclusions.

[Emancipated]

anyone got a link to the video of the security cameras catching the shooter? I heard the shooter shoots ppl under tables, Counter-Strike style, so i just wanna see that out of curiousity.

Are you for real? Like Counter-Strike? You see how messed up, how abnormal that all is --- requesting to see people being coldly executed and you want to see it because it may resemble a ****** video game you played? Hey scum bag, have some respect for the dead. They died in this tragedy and you want to see it to be amused. You disgusting piece of chit.

[aflyingcow]

Are you for real? Like Counter-Strike? You see how messed up, how abnormal that all is --- requesting to see people being coldly executed and you want to see it because it may resemble a ****** video game you played? Hey scum bag, have some respect for the dead. They died in this tragedy and you want to see it to be amused. You disgusting piece of chit.

+1, a terrible thing to post. Some nice respect you have for the dead, AzN_RiverdaleCI.

[YnD]

anyone got a link to the video of the security cameras catching the shooter? I heard the shooter shoots ppl under tables, Counter-Strike style, so i just wanna see that out of curiousity.

What's next... "HEADSHOT" or "ULTRA KILL".

[duckling.]

well I guess I know what all my fellow classmates who didn't graduate meant when they said that the "quality" of RCI is "degrading".

also out of curiosity, where do you crawl under tables in CS?
*sigh*

[gordholio]

From what I am reading and hearing from the media, this DOES seem to be the case. He is constantly being labeled as 'mean', 'creepy', 'loner', 'not a man' in articles. Perhaps 'psycho' isn't a proper term. They are trying to make a monster out of him.

I'm not trying to defend his actions, I'm just pointing out the fact that people are putting a spin on this situation when they haven't even figured out what went wrong. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he is really everything people are labeling him as, but for now I don't think people shouldn't jump to these conclusions.

He murdered 32 innocent people. There's nothing to understand.
He allowed his mind to get twisted and left it open to the dark forces.
Yes, he was a monster. No two ways about it.
But, anyway with all the publicity he is getting postmortem, I'm sure there will be some who will look to him as a "hero". More twisted minds.

[billdozer]

+1, a terrible thing to post. Some nice respect you have for the dead, AzN_RiverdaleCI.

RFD High Schooler effect

[aflyingcow]

RFD High Schooler effect

Honestly... what else would he like to see compared to a game - strictly for curiosity of course... the Holocaust? Hiroshima/Nakasaki? Tiananmen Square?

[Mr.Universe]

He murdered 32 innocent people. There's nothing to understand.
He allowed his mind to get twisted and left it open to the dark forces.
Yes, he was a monster. No two ways about it.
But, anyway with all the publicity he is getting postmortem, I'm sure there will be some who will look to him as a "hero". More twisted minds.

Considered this, if you were publicly humiliated, teased, and embarrassed beyond reason for long periods...would you snap? I'm not saying that's what happened nor trying to justify his actions but clearly he had psychology issues. There's always two sides to a story, by understand his though process and emotional state, future incidents like this may be prevented.

[SergesPlace]

Considered this, if you were publicly humiliated, teased, and embarrassed beyond reason for long periods...would you snap? I'm not saying that's what happened nor trying to justify his actions but clearly he had psychology issues. There's always two sides to a story, by understand his though process and emotional state, future incidents like this may be prevented.

I bet 20% of kids out there are treated like that. Guess what? They don't snap. This guy was a complete sociopath. That's all there is to say

[gordholio]

Considered this, if you were publicly humiliated, teased, and embarrassed beyond reason for long periods...would you snap? I'm not saying that's what happened nor trying to justify his actions but clearly he had psychology issues. There's always two sides to a story, by understand his though process and emotional state, future incidents like this may be prevented.

He went way beyond "snapping".
He totally let his mind get warped and opened himself to destructive thoughts that he let fester and fester.
If you keep dwelling on negative things (day after day for years), they overtake your mind and you lose your ability to think properly. But that's his fault.
He lost any ability to feel for other people - just himself. He was very selfish and self-centred.
Sorry, but I don't have any sympathy for him whatsoever.
We should be focusing on the victims though - not this guy.

[duckling.]

Considered this, if you were publicly humiliated, teased, and embarrassed beyond reason for long periods...would you snap? I'm not saying that's what happened nor trying to justify his actions but clearly he had psychology issues. There's always two sides to a story, by understand his though process and emotional state, future incidents like this may be prevented.

Or how about, why he was publicly humiliated, teased, and embarassed for long periods in the first place? Like, say... taking pictures of his female classmate's legs under the table, and intimidating them so much that they were thinking of dropping the course just because of him?

If there was a psychological problem in the first place, his parents should have known, and I am sure they would have acted accordingly; however, why they don't know is a different issue. If this was a problem since child birth, then it is surely his parents fault for not raising their kid properly, but if it was a spur of the moment thing then there is no one to blame but him. His parents immigrated and worked hard for a better life. With that said, I would think they didn't have much time themselves to spend quality time or watch their kid all the time. I'm speaking because my parents were recent immigrants and I was once in this boat. I, too, think there are way too many spoiled brats out there, but there is absolutely nothing justifiable about taking the lives of 32 innocent people, some that may have very well been in agreement with his school of thought.

[gordholio]

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2007-04/29122742.jpg

Ryan Clark

Clark was called "Stack" by his friends, many of whom he met as a resident assistant at Ambler Johnson Hall, where the first shootings took place.

Clark, 22, was from Martinez, Georgia, just outside Augusta. He was a fifth-year student working toward degrees in biology and English, and a member of the Marching Virginians band.

"He was just one of the greatest people you could possibly know," friend Gregory Walton, 25, said after learning from an ambulance driver that Clark was among the dead.

"He was always smiling, always laughing. I don't think I ever saw him mad in the five years I knew him."

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2007-04/29150593.jpg

Austin Cloyd

Cloyd, an international studies major from Blacksburg, Virginia, was so inspired by an Appalachian service project that helped rehabilitate homes that she and her mother started a similar program in their Illinois town, her former pastor said.

The Cloyds were active members of the First United Methodist Church in Champaign, Illinois, before moving to Blacksburg in 2005, the Rev. Terry Harter said. The family moved when Cloyd’s father, C. Bryan Cloyd, took a job in the accounting department at Virginia Tech, Harter said.

Harter, whose church held a prayer service for the family Tuesday night, described Cloyd as a “very delightful, intelligent, warm young lady” and an athlete who played basketball and volleyball in high school. But it was the mission trips to Appalachia that showed just how caring and faithful she was, he said.

“It made an important impact on her life, that’s the kind of person she was,” he said.

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2007-04/29122600.jpg

Reema Samaha

Samaha, 18, a freshman from Centreville, Virginia, was seeking to major in urban planning and minor in international relations or French.

"She was a young lady that was growing in every way," her father, Joseph Samaha, told CNN. "She found her niche here at the university. She loved what she was doing, she was involved with creative dance, Oriental dance, Cedars of Lebanon, a local club of Lebanese students."

Joseph Samaha and his wife saw their daughter over the weekend while she performed in an international festival on campus. They had planned on returning to the school next weekend for another visit.

"Dance was her life," he said. "She loved choreography. She loved the world. She loved to travel. She planned to go to France this summer to do a summer abroad program to strengthen her French. That was the class she was in when she was killed."

http://www.newsday.com/media/photo/2007-04/29150578.jpg

Maxine Turner

Maxine Turner, 22, of Vienna, Virginia, was killed with other students on the second floor of Norris Hall on Monday.

She was an honors engineering student who was taking German as an elective in the final spring of her senior year at Virginia Tech.

This image is from her high school prom in 2003 in Vienna.

[Mr.Universe]

I bet 20% of kids out there are treated like that. Guess what? They don't snap. This guy was a complete sociopath. That's all there is to say

And I bet if all "20% of kids" are treated like that, all of them will snap. You see it all the time, mainly in the form of verbal arguments and physical fights. It's what you do when you snap that separates the sane and the insane. Cho snapped in his own and twisted way.

Yes, clearly he was a sociopath but what in particular caused him to release his sociapath'ism (is that a word)? What I'm saying is...it would stupid to chalk this one up to craziness and brush it under the rug. Lets try to find out why he snapped and why he snapped in such a violet way.

[UrbanPoet]

wow... they are so young... i can relate to all of them.
its kinda creepy how they are all my age, and in the same stage of life... yet it was all taken away.

[neilson]

some celebrities got together and put together a tribute to the victims of the attack so the guys posted up on the youtube

http://youtube.com/watch?v=yRmqZRPgK1w

enjoy

WRONG VIDEO.

[jayisthebest88]

I seriously think he was possessed by the devil. I know some of you dont believe in this kind of stuff, but the way he never talked to anyone and was basically in his own weird world as if he was autistic or something, And the things he said about Jesus and religion and stuff.....

[masterhapposai]

And I bet if all "20% of kids" are treated like that, all of them will snap. You see it all the time, mainly in the form of verbal arguments and physical fights. It's what you do when you snap that separates the sane and the insane. Cho snapped in his own and twisted way.

Yes, clearly he was a sociopath but what in particular caused him to release his sociapath'ism (is that a word)? What I'm saying is...it would stupid to chalk this one up to craziness and brush it under the rug. Lets try to find out why he snapped and why he snapped in such a violet way.


he did it in this manner because he's crazy

if you read his "plays" and about how he stalked women, and still think he wasn't at least mildly imbalanced then you really need to start reading books on human behaviour and psychology in general

what really sticks out is you can see the rage in his play, he can't focus, and his english becomes poor as he gets more angry, his words and sentences more cliche. if I didn't know he wrote it I'd think it was a kid from grade3 and grade 6 maximum.

I honestly believe he has the mental capacity of a slow grade 6 student. He may be good at memorizing and perhaps scared teachers into passing him, but that's not the point I've seen near braindead people get through school no problem.

[masterhapposai]

I seriously think he was possessed by the devil. I know some of you dont believe in this kind of stuff, but the way he never talked to anyone and was basically in his own weird world as if he was autistic or something, And the things he said about Jesus and religion and stuff.....

there's no question he's a new breed of crazy

there's definitely a touch of autism of some form. i wonder if this is a new form of mental retardation that causes extreme aggression and violence

I remember a form that was being taken care of in one of the classes at my school and they had to seriously shackle them and use mouth guards + muzzles, because they'd tear you apart if they could. It was disturbing and I still don't understand to this day wtf were they doing there.

This guy obviously passed courses, but you seen his Video, as he begins raging he loses IQ by the nano second. It could be some form of savant type rage even, where his ability is then to harm others only or act out aggression/control.

I've never seen in my life someone write and speak so poorly, and he was majoring in english? wtf?

The closest I've seen is Napoleon Dynamite and he sounded like him exactly. People who can't speak english always speak much faster or attempt to say something, anything. His story was similar, pausing and going nowhere. Madness.

[dre145]

From what I am reading and hearing from the media, this DOES seem to be the case. He is constantly being labeled as 'mean', 'creepy', 'loner', 'not a man' in articles. Perhaps 'psycho' isn't a proper term. They are trying to make a monster out of him.

I'm not trying to defend his actions, I'm just pointing out the fact that people are putting a spin on this situation when they haven't even figured out what went wrong. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he is really everything people are labeling him as, but for now I don't think people shouldn't jump to these conclusions.

how can u even try to defend his "Image", make ur own assertions from the "videos" he sent to the media, this person in the best possible words to say... was F---ed,

he had no friends, he was probably bullied, he didnt like rich people and thier lives...
But he did nothing to change his ****ing life... he kept to him self and didnt talk to people or open up, this person put himself into this situation, NOONE else is responsible for his life/lifestyle he took the steps in his life and lead him self to this place, in his videos he says people made him do this, This person is sick, a coward and killed innocent and in the end of it all, in his mind he tried to make his actions seem right and like he was doing nothing wrong.... u know what that is??? a ****ing sick person

[Peckerwood]

I was picked on all throughout schooling...from grade 1 and on. I got locked in lockers, beat up regularly, pushed around, food stolen at the cafeterias, froshed for no reasons, called down, called names, and basically treated like a turd.

You dont see me running around like an idiot killing people indiscriminately do you?

I am all for the right of the victim to personal defense...with whatever means available.

[dre145]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XYPPk6SAWg&watch_response

[rchun044]

I dont care what anyone says, this has happened too often now!!! And it has everything to do with society. Making a monster out of this person doesnt do anything except give ppl a person to blame and hate. Nothing is that simple, if u saw the video, u know this guy was socially murdered when he was in high school... and the fact his parents were immigrants is even tougher... ppl who have parents that didnt grow up here are on their own a lot of the times when it comes to seeking guidance about social interaction as teenagers. So imagine a guy like cho who was already not well.....

Anyways.....i think hating cho isnt going to do anything good...... but make people more intolerant.....like how some ppl think all arabs are terrorists.....some ppl are going to think all awkward kids are mass murderers...

This problem starts from the education system from elementary right through to high school.... I think everyone needs to step up from students, teachers, parents....

[Rifle]

On www.cnn.com , on the front page go down to watch video/ then most popular and click on the interview with cho's relative in korea.

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/world/2007/04/19/chance.cho.relatives.speak.ap&checkAgain=false&wm=native_nm

The end is typical of asian families. :|

[jayisthebest88]

On www.cnn.com , on the front page go down to watch video/ then most popular and click on the interview with cho's relative in korea.

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/world/2007/04/19/chance.cho.relatives.speak.ap&checkAgain=false&wm=native_nm

The end is typical of asian families. :|

I can tell its a bad translation........idiot sounds alot more harsh then what it is in korean......

[Peckerwood]

Society Society Society

I am starting to get sick of this excuse...there is no physical tangible object called society. Instead there are numerous individual entities that go about their personal lives meting out their own specific existance as they see fit. There is relationship yes...but even that is intangible and is specifically between the space of two or more individuals.

Campaigning upon the failure of an intangible entity that has absolutely no direction of it's own...(hence the nature of "society", that of a passive one totally reliant upon the actions of individuals present within a artificially boundered clique)...there is then no way that such a passive intangibility can possibly be held as liable for anything it is obviously incapable of making.

And since the subject in question(society) is instead a result not a cause, then it can not be held to blame for anything that it itself is unable to cause or manifest without the direct input or making of individuals.

Now since individuals make choices of their own accord, whether purposeful or out of an ego trap of their own making; such things cannot be held liable to other individuals that have absolutely no gearing towards the direction of the individual in question. Hence whatever a certain individual chooses to do, that is strictly within their own personal scope.

Blaming any action on an intangible reactionary element is fraudulent as well as irresponsible as it then removes the right of the individual to make choices purely of their own intent, as well as be held accountable to such actions, and thusly disempowers them from the start.

Such passivity is ignorant of reality and completely devoid of the nature of self realisation, self truth, and self direction. It is nothing more than a reflection of the desire to blame something...anything...and within the absence of a conscious entity to be held accountable for such a travesty...the blamers tend to then go on a second rampage in blaming everything else.

[and or]

Society Society Society

I am starting to get sick of this excuse...there is no physical tangible object called society. Instead there are numerous individual entities that go about their personal lives meting out their own specific existance as they see fit. There is relationship yes...but even that is intangible and is specifically between the space of two or more individuals.

Campaigning upon the failure of an intangible entity that has absolutely no direction of it's own...(hence the nature of "society", that of a passive one totally reliant upon the actions of individuals present within a artificially boundered clique)...there is then no way that such a passive intangibility can possibly be held as liable for anything it is obviously incapable of making.

And since the subject in question(society) is instead a result not a cause, then it can not be held to blame for anything that it itself is unable to cause or manifest without the direct input or making of individuals.

Now since individuals make choices of their own accord, whether purposeful or out of an ego trap of their own making; such things cannot be held liable to other individuals that have absolutely no gearing towards the direction of the individual in question. Hence whatever a certain individual chooses to do, that is strictly within their own personal scope.

Blaming any action on an intangible reactionary element is fraudulent as well as irresponsible as it then removes the right of the individual to make choices purely of their own intent, as well as be held accountable to such actions, and thusly disempowers them from the start.

Such passivity is ignorant of reality and completely devoid of the nature of self realisation, self truth, and self direction. It is nothing more than a reflection of the desire to blame something...anything...and within the absence of a conscious entity to be held accountable for such a travesty...the blamers tend to then go on a second rampage in blaming everything else.

:arrowu: That's lots of fancy words strung together in a fancy manner, kind of like a first year philosophy essay, but danged if I can see a point up there.

[formalentity]

Why did he do it, I saw a few confession videos but he doesn't mention why he's doing it, he just says he wants to get like revenge I think it was on someone unknown, it makes you wonder what pressured him so much do something this horrible, **** if you gotta take revenge get the person who was harrassing you or something in jail!!.. anyways does anyone know why he actually did it??

[Peckerwood]

:arrowu: That's lots of fancy words strung together in a fancy manner, kind of like a first year philosophy essay, but danged if I can see a point up there.
The point is simple..."society" is a result of individuals congregating...not a cause of them.

A result is not capable of being responsible for anything...it is purely an after-effect...not a catalyst.

[formalentity]

how can u even try to defend his "Image", make ur own assertions from the "videos" he sent to the media, this person in the best possible words to say... was F---ed,

he had no friends, he was probably bullied, he didnt like rich people and thier lives...
But he did nothing to change his ****ing life... he kept to him self and didnt talk to people or open up, this person put himself into this situation, NOONE else is responsible for his life/lifestyle he took the steps in his life and lead him self to this place, in his videos he says people made him do this, This person is sick, a coward and killed innocent and in the end of it all, in his mind he tried to make his actions seem right and like he was doing nothing wrong.... u know what that is??? a ****ing sick person

well man, I'm not gonna defend what he did, it makes him a sicko no matter how you look at it, but we should look at the root of the issue, I mean what really caused it, It was likely bullies, no body should go through bullying, I've never went through it in high school, but I did go through it in Elementary, in gr4 :P and I remember to this day when my toy was stolen and i could do nothing about it!.. but my friends got it back for me :P, anyways you are right he could have made better choices in life, your life is what you make it. Anyways I think they should do something about bullies, and these kids that are outta the "Picture", i mean those kids who aren't very social. Teachers should without a doubt for example get those kids into groups of ppl they thin k they like being with, forcing a social environment, because we all know no one wants to be alone, It'll help bridge the real issues, even if you go through bullying you'll have your really tight friends, and you wont be far apart from society. I mean I wasn't very social at the starting of high school, cuz i was scared when i started out sorta, but eventually ended up with awesome friends, and had enormous respect from everyone. The thing is when your not social you leave everything inside!, thats a problem, you gotta let it out, I luv my friends to death, I mean they my everything I tell them everything when Im going through a tough time and they definatly relieve the stress.

My point is, Teachers should Create a social environment for those who are really apart from the rest of the kids!, Its easy to do!!, all you gotta do is force it, just put that boy in various different groups to experiment with who he/she would get along with the best, infact they should practice these type of exercises in all classes to diminish shyness even. I remember in English10, my teacher made us do sooo much plays and such things!, I had so much fun :P, that really helped me out in terms of being even more comfortable with myself.

Another thing is, if your a teacher do something about bullying, in harsh terms!!, really it's awful anyone going through it!, the teachers should discuss it with the bully's parents!!, thats what I'm trying to say, because it's a serious issue, If your a bully you got problems aswell.. :P, so we really gotta concentrate on I think those two things!

I don't think he was crazy, but because of the choices he made in life, and how he was treated, you kinda feel alone, you got no one to turn to, and I think as a result of that you become "Crazy", I don't think he was born with any problems, but because of the things he went through in his life he made this horrible decision!.. anyways I really hope schools focus on the first two things I've mentioned! because its really important!

Note: I'm note defending him, I'm just trying to say if we don't want this to happen again, if we wanna see more "normal" ppl in society then we gotta do something about it ourselves, because those shy kids or bullies aren't gonna take the motive to do anything right.

[vladvlad]

I was picked on all throughout schooling...from grade 1 and on. I got locked in lockers, beat up regularly, pushed around, food stolen at the cafeterias, froshed for no reasons, called down, called names, and basically treated like a turd.

You dont see me running around like an idiot killing people indiscriminately do you?

Since you started this line of reasoning...

... did you stand up for yourself in any way?
Did you fantasize about revenge against your tormentors?

Come on - tell the truth.

Society Society Society
I am starting to get sick of this excuse...there is no physical tangible object called society. Instead there are numerous individual entities that go about their personal lives meting out their own specific existance as they see fit. There is relationship yes...but even that is intangible and is specifically between the space of two or more individuals.


What? Are you serious there is no such thing as society? "Society = culture". We know that there are different cultures in the world with different values. American culture is about a lot of self-centered entertainment + materialism + hedonism. America is more about the individual and the alpha male. These characteristics make it one of the toughest societies. This leads to lots of pressure - especially on the weakest in society who end up killing themselves or killing others.

[masterhapposai]

Wake up people.

A sane person gets revenge on the exact people that did them wrong

An insane person kills random people and blabbers like an idiot trying to rationalize their actions.

End of story, he's insane.

[formalentity]

Wake up people.

A sane person gets revenge on the exact people that did them wrong

An insane person kills random people and blabbers like an idiot trying to rationalize their actions.

End of story, he's insane.

I disagree, because Insane ppl I think have some sort of mental illness, this guy, I mean if he had any mental issues, then i think ppl would have been aware of that, and it would have been on the news. I think it clearly made him do it because of what he went through in life. Theres no excuse for what he did though it was horrible, and he should be punished, but the fact is he wasn't insane, he could think for himself, something went really wrong, maybe we'll find out more details later.. I'd still like to know what made him go do what he did.

[rockthecasbah]

The point is simple..."society" is a result of individuals congregating...not a cause of them.

A result is not capable of being responsible for anything...it is purely an after-effect...not a catalyst.

So you're saying individual traits, how they are molded into a free willed being, is not at all correlated, or to an extent causing, the behavior of individuals?

That they are two separate entities and to understand problems of individuals, we must not consider how society accounts for or attributes to these problems and vice versa?

True, society is a passive entity and it is made up of individuals congregating. And to that extent, yeah, it's in no way in control as an active entity. But the broader aspects of society, like culture, social networks, educational institutions, political institutions, religious institutions, etc, all play a role in how its (its = society. BTW re: your post, it's = it is) parts behave and the traits of each part. To assume individual is one entity and society is another and one cannot learn or understand one by looking at the other is foolish. I highly doubt people become "who they are" COMPLETELY on their own; that would be to say all of us live in a bubble. I'm not saying society is completely to be blamed for one individual's actions (because mental illness, which in SOME respects is socially constructed... who determines what "illness" is and isn't?... is more on an individualistic level and clearly, Cho was mentally ill) but there are aspects of society that contributed to his rampage.

We are all a product of our environment. As they say, "it takes a village to raise a child".

[formalentity]

I think I change my mind he may have had some problems :/, I saw the with subtitles and understood it as best I could. It looks like he has a problem with rich people or some rich kids in his school. But the message was to vague to understand the point he's making I don't get why he did it:confused:

[YnD]

I hope all the people who bullied him realize the monster they created.

[gordholio]

Lauren Ashley McCain
From The New York Times

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/04/19/timestopics/topics_MCCAIN1_ready.jpg

No one who knew Lauren Ashley McCain well could ever doubt what she considered the driving force in her life.

"The purpose and love of my life is Jesus Christ," she wrote in her profile on MySpace.com. "I don't have to argue religion, philosophy, or historical evidence because I KNOW Him. He is just as real, if not more so, as my 'earthly' father."

A 20-year-old native of Hampton, Va., Ms. McCain was known among friends as spiritual and outgoing with a penchant for playing pranks. She loved science fiction movies and almost every type of music except country, and she always seemed happiest in church.

"She was just so peaceful and happy worshipping her God," Marrisa Macri, a childhood friend, told The Daily Press, a newspaper in Hampton Roads, Va. "I remember seeing her just two Sundays ago, on Easter at church. She was sitting on the left of her row, two rows in front of us, just glowing, literally glowing with joy, worshipping God while her little sister Abby, who she held on to, was singing along with her.

Another of Ms. McCain's passions was language. She had almost mastered Latin, was studying German and told friends she dreamed of visiting Germany one day. At Virginia Tech, she was majoring in international studies.

On Monday, she was sitting in her German class when Cho Seung-Hui barged in and opened fire, killing her and several other people. Her father, David McCain, said he believed Ms. McCain was probably praying for Mr. Cho in the final moments of her life.

"She was that kind of girl," he told Fox News in an interview after the shootings. "She believed in Christ and she believed in forgiving. I am so sorry for him and I feel so sorry for the family that will never know the answers."

"I forgive him," he added.

[SergesPlace]

Has the killer's parents spoken yet?

[HockeyGirl]

Has the killer's parents spoken yet?

Nope, but from an article from pulse 24... http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_10015.aspx


Relatives in South Korea now say Cho was withdrawn even as a child, and the problem was so bad, they believed he might be autistic.
Cho's parents, who had been working at a Washington, D.C. dry cleaners, haven't been seen since the shootings. It's now been revealed they're in hiding under the protection of U.S. authorities, fearful of a possible backlash against them.

But it may be Cho's aunt who best sums up the boy she knew growing up in South Korea.

"He was very cold," she observes.

Whatever happened to that lonely, silent child, one thing seems certain - when Cho finally found his voice, it was a scream that came filled with a lifetime of rage at the end of two very powerful guns.

[UrbanPoet]

Nope, but from an article from pulse 24... http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_10015.aspx


Relatives in South Korea now say Cho was withdrawn even as a child, and the problem was so bad, they believed he might be autistic.
Cho's parents, who had been working at a Washington, D.C. dry cleaners, haven't been seen since the shootings. It's now been revealed they're in hiding under the protection of U.S. authorities, fearful of a possible backlash against them.

But it may be Cho's aunt who best sums up the boy she knew growing up in South Korea.

"He was very cold," she observes.

Whatever happened to that lonely, silent child, one thing seems certain - when Cho finally found his voice, it was a scream that came filled with a lifetime of rage at the end of two very powerful guns.




ahh... so he was a crazy as a kid too?
thats freaky deaky shat.

[neilson]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=we-are-glad-he-is-dead-by-cho-s-family--&method=full&objectid=18931479&siteid=89520-name_page.html

WE ARE GLAD HE IS DEAD BY CHO'S FAMILY

EXCLUSIVE
Graham Brough In South Korea 20/04/2007

THE grandad of university mass killer Cho Seung-Hui said last night: "Son of a *****. He deserved to die.

"It's better not to have such a child in the family." And he dismissed Cho - diagnosed with autism as an eight-year-old - as "a trouble-causer who has destroyed his mother's life". Kim Hyang-Sik, 81, spoke at his home in South Korea after seeing the video Cho made of himself holding a gun to his head.

Student Cho, 23, shot dead 32 at Virginia Tech University before killing himself.

[abu_sme]

Ok,

I(t has been established that he has a mental illness. A mental illness that distorts the facts, this has been known since he was a little kid..

So can we please stop the "I'm not defending his actions, but it is society's fault" garbage. You ARE defending his action. I am sorry, but if you take anything that he says in his video as truth you are seriously gullible. The guy was delusional, as a result of his craziness.

I have suffered from depression in the past, and I felt like everyone was out to get me at one point. Was it true? Absolutely not. A mental illness makes you think everyone is out to get you, but the reality can be completely different. The guy was metally screwed up, and he could have been treated like gold and he STILL would think everyone is out to get him.

[formalentity]

yup he had a mental illness, I'm not sure why the parents weren't aware of this. The real issue is how he purchased the guns, some people are saying the selling was illegal. He should have gotten checked out at the hospital or something. I read the mental illness he had was quite serious. And it looks like the teachers did try and get him into counseling but he refused.. I just read more and it looks like he was actually living with another student, so wasn't with the parents.. Even the student who was living with him tried to communicate with him but Cho still never said anything.. he was also autistic.. In the end I guess he probably did it because he was angry at the fact that he was lonely I would assume... I sorta blame the parents, because they admit they knew about it!!, I mean if they knew he had a mental illness I don't think he should be without supervision at home :/ anyways awful what happened. The only solution imo would be for parents to keep on eye on there child..

[SergesPlace]

Breaking News: Gunman on the loose at Nasa

http://us.cnn.com/

[direct-x]

Breaking News: Gunman on the loose at Nasa

http://us.cnn.com/

And the copycats start coming out of the woodwork.

[formalentity]

Breaking News: Gunman on the loose at Nasa

http://us.cnn.com/

WTF is the world coming to:confused:

[dre145]

And the copycats start coming out of the woodwork.

good to know that crazies dont have an age limit

[SergesPlace]

Va. gunman's family feels hopeless, lost

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/V/VIRGINIA_TECH_SHOOTING?SITE=MITRA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[Irb]

Cho fired off as many as 225 shots as he gunned down his victims before turning the gun on himself, a law enforcement source told CNN Friday.

That figure is based on the number of bullets and the 17 empty ammunition magazines found at Norris Hall, the source said.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/20/vtech.shooting/index.html

[dre145]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/04/20/vtech.shooting/index.html

holy ----

[formalentity]

wow

what a terible tragedy

i hope the killers go the jail for this

the killer shot himself ... after

[ZenOps]

Nasa - Finally a legitimate protest target.

Nasa has been the centre of research for the most military technology made in the US. Its about time someone snapped and tried a rampage there.

[Shaner]

Nasa - Finally a legitimate protest target.

Nasa has been the centre of research for the most military technology made in the US. Its about time someone snapped and tried a rampage there.

There's nothing wrong with having technology. The problem is the people who abuse technology, not the technology itself. That's like saying a gun is evil. No it's not, the ****** who pulled the trigger is evil, not the gun itself.

There's absolutely no reason anyone at NASA should be harmed just because you don't agree with some of the decisions that the US government has made.

[ZenOps]

Nah, this time its a 50-60 year old blond white guy - Probably an employee I'm thinking (you just can't walk up to a Nasa building and get in)

[formalentity]

There's nothing wrong with having technology. The problem is the people who abuse technology, not the technology itself. That's like saying a gun is evil. No it's not, the ****** who pulled the trigger is evil, not the gun itself.

There's absolutely no reason anyone at NASA should be harmed just because you don't agree with some of the decisions that the US government has made.

I still think we gotta ban weapons, that way as you've mentioned the "******" will not purchase the gun and shoot ppl :P

[formalentity]

Nah, this time its a 50-60 year old blond white guy - Probably an employee I'm thinking (you just can't walk up to a Nasa building and get in)

+1 yeah it is one of the employees

[ZenOps]

There's nothing wrong with having technology.

I dunno, personally I think things are going too far, too fast.

The idea that we were all striving to find "cold fusion" is a perfect example. What people don't realize, is that if a cold fusion experiment ever got out of control, we could potentially vaporize the entire earth or at least a continent in the matter of a few seconds. Fusion being that much more powerful than fission (which can only sterilize half a state) - and cold fusion being that much more dangerous as its sustainable and unstoppable at low temperatures.

Socially we are not ready for the advances in military technology we are learning. The world definitely needs more musicians right now, and fewer engineers, and this is coming from me, a guy who almost had a career in engi.

[perplexed_one]

ecet that picture is not something to joke about.

[SergesPlace]

Hey ecet


You're not funny. Take your shite somewhere else

[basketball]

'm surprised no one here has claimed that they personally know the killer..... unlike many of the other times here someone has posted a news story that was big news and then someone comes out and starts posting all these details and answering questions and making stuff up that cant be verified lol

really, we could use a someone like that, someone please come out and say that they were in the building and had a gunfight with the killer during his rampage
ahh....here we go again, there's always 1 dumbass who just don't get how serious this is until he/someone close to him gets shot...

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d83/otterkatie/dumbass.jpg

[xsighted]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/topstories/tm_headline=we-are-glad-he-is-dead-by-cho-s-family--&method=full&objectid=18931479&siteid=89520-name_page.html

WE ARE GLAD HE IS DEAD BY CHO'S FAMILY

EXCLUSIVE
Graham Brough In South Korea 20/04/2007

THE grandad of university mass killer Cho Seung-Hui said last night: "Son of a *****. He deserved to die.

"It's better not to have such a child in the family." And he dismissed Cho - diagnosed with autism as an eight-year-old - as "a trouble-causer who has destroyed his mother's life". Kim Hyang-Sik, 81, spoke at his home in South Korea after seeing the video Cho made of himself holding a gun to his head.

Student Cho, 23, shot dead 32 at Virginia Tech University before killing himself.

it almost seems like a series of events ever since he was a child ... the grand parents probably didnt treat him well either ... they probably didnt see him becoming a bread winner someday after growing up, and therefore worthless, which is not very uncommon in asia.

just speculating ..

[SergesPlace]

This was written from the killer's sister Sun-Kyung Cho. It really chokes me up. Such a devastating situation.

On behalf of our family, we are so deeply sorry for the devastation my brother has caused. No words can express our sadness that 32 innocent people lost their lives this week in such a terrible, senseless tragedy.

We are heartbroken.

We grieve alongside the families, the Virginia Tech community, our State of Virginia, and the rest of the nation. And, the world.

Every day since April 16, my father, mother and I pray for students Ross Abdallah Alameddine, Brian Roy Bluhm, Ryan Christopher Clark, Austin Michelle Cloyd, Matthew Gregory Gwaltney, Caitlin Millar Hammaren, Jeremy Michael Herbstritt, Rachael Elizabeth Hill, Emily Jane Hilscher, Jarrett Lee Lane, Matthew Joseph La Porte, Henry J. Lee, Partahi Mamora Halomoan Lumbantoruan, Lauren Ashley McCain, Daniel Patrick O'Neil, J. Ortiz-Ortiz, Minal Hiralal Panchal, Daniel Alejandro Perez, Erin Nicole Peterson, Michael Steven Pohle, Jr., Julia Kathleen Pryde, Mary Karen Read, Reema Joseph Samaha, Waleed Mohamed Shaalan, Leslie Geraldine Sherman, Maxine Shelly Turner, Nicole White, Instructor Christopher James Bishop, and Professors Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, Kevin P. Granata, Liviu Librescu and G.V. Loganathan.

We pray for their families and loved ones who are experiencing so much excruciating grief. And we pray for those who were injured and for those whose lives are changed forever because of what they witnessed and experienced.

Each of these people had so much love, talent and gifts to offer, and their lives were cut short by a horrible and senseless act.

We are humbled by this darkness. We feel hopeless, helpless and lost. This is someone that I grew up with and loved. Now I feel like I didn't know this person.

We have always been a close, peaceful and loving family. My brother was quiet and reserved, yet struggled to fit in. We never could have envisioned that he was capable of so much violence.

He has made the world weep. We are living a nightmare.

There is much justified anger and disbelief at what my brother did, and a lot of questions are left unanswered. Our family will continue to cooperate fully and do whatever we can to help authorities understand why these senseless acts happened. We have many unanswered questions as well.

Our family is so very sorry for my brother's unspeakable actions. It is a terrible tragedy for all of us.

[formalentity]

I'm glad it doesn't happen here, at least I haven't heard of something like this occurring in Canada

[squall458]

oh how quickly we forget...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_Shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

I might not have a phd in geography but wasnt the nanking massacre outside of Canada and not related to school shootings in any way....

[UrbanPoet]

oh how quickly we forget...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_Shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

nanking doesnt really count... its a war crime.
Its kinda like the 9/11 bombing.

[neilson]

oh how quickly we forget...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dawson_College_Shooting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

Better yet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordia_University_massacre

^Those 2 shootings are what led Canada to create the Gun Ban.

[UrbanPoet]

Better yet:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_Polytechnique_massacre

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concordia_University_massacre

^Those 2 shootings are what led Canada to create the Gun Ban.

haha yeah.....
$2 billion dollars later they realized....

[formalentity]

I see, yeah I forgot already I guess, infact I don't even remember seeing that on the news :/. When are they gonna ban guns?!! We don't need them at all, except for the police.. :P

[rockthecasbah]

I don't know if you've been reading the Star or watching CNN today during Paula Zahn's segment but there are people, such as the gun store owner who sold Cho the 2nd gun, that say the US should have MORE LAX gun control laws so more people can get guns and have those guns allowed on campus. Their line of reasoning is that people could've stopped him in his tracks. That freaks me out, man. I think it's insane to have these buffoons suggest MORE deadly weapons, combatting a problem with more of the catalyst of that problem. And can you imagine people in class packing heat??!! Jesus Christ! I once had a Cho Seung-Hui kinda guy in a class once and he was a loner, Asian too and once, some of us saw him AIR PUNCHING in front of a reflective classroom sign before class. We were all WTF. He could be crazy like Cho but without the means or will to get the firearms. With all these mentally imbalanced people like him, I think, and others with short fuses bringing guns to class, omigosh. I would enrol in an online university!

[Peckerwood]

I see, yeah I forgot already I guess, infact I don't even remember seeing that on the news :/. When are they gonna ban guns?!! We don't need them at all, except for the police.. :P
Every place in the world that has instituted gun bans has seen sharp increases in violent crimes and murders...UK and Aussie are prime examples.

The violent crime rate in the UK is 3 times higher than in the USA.

When only the police have guns they call that a Police State ;)

[PennyArcade]

This was written from the killer's sister Sun-Kyung Cho. It really chokes me up. Such a devastating situation.

On behalf of our family, we are so deeply sorry for the devastation my brother has caused. No words can express our sadness that 32 innocent people lost their lives this week in such a terrible, senseless tragedy.

We are heartbroken.

We grieve alongside the families, the Virginia Tech community, our State of Virginia, and the rest of the nation. And, the world.

Every day since April 16, my father, mother and I pray for students Ross Abdallah Alameddine, Brian Roy Bluhm, Ryan Christopher Clark, Austin Michelle Cloyd, Matthew Gregory Gwaltney, Caitlin Millar Hammaren, Jeremy Michael Herbstritt, Rachael Elizabeth Hill, Emily Jane Hilscher, Jarrett Lee Lane, Matthew Joseph La Porte, Henry J. Lee, Partahi Mamora Halomoan Lumbantoruan, Lauren Ashley McCain, Daniel Patrick O'Neil, J. Ortiz-Ortiz, Minal Hiralal Panchal, Daniel Alejandro Perez, Erin Nicole Peterson, Michael Steven Pohle, Jr., Julia Kathleen Pryde, Mary Karen Read, Reema Joseph Samaha, Waleed Mohamed Shaalan, Leslie Geraldine Sherman, Maxine Shelly Turner, Nicole White, Instructor Christopher James Bishop, and Professors Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, Kevin P. Granata, Liviu Librescu and G.V. Loganathan.

We pray for their families and loved ones who are experiencing so much excruciating grief. And we pray for those who were injured and for those whose lives are changed forever because of what they witnessed and experienced.

Each of these people had so much love, talent and gifts to offer, and their lives were cut short by a horrible and senseless act.

We are humbled by this darkness. We feel hopeless, helpless and lost. This is someone that I grew up with and loved. Now I feel like I didn't know this person.

We have always been a close, peaceful and loving family. My brother was quiet and reserved, yet struggled to fit in. We never could have envisioned that he was capable of so much violence.

He has made the world weep. We are living a nightmare.

There is much justified anger and disbelief at what my brother did, and a lot of questions are left unanswered. Our family will continue to cooperate fully and do whatever we can to help authorities understand why these senseless acts happened. We have many unanswered questions as well.

Our family is so very sorry for my brother's unspeakable actions. It is a terrible tragedy for all of us.

well written. I'm glad they did this instead of being interviewed on TV. I highly doubt the parents are well versed in English and will probably look like FOB's that brought this tragedy upon US soil.

I truly feel sorry for the family (especially the parents and sister) as much as the families of the victims and wounded. I cannot imagine living on, knowing that your child was a mass murderer.

It will be interesting to see if Sun-Kyung Cho is let go from her current position.

[formalentity]

Every place in the world that has instituted gun bans has seen sharp increases in violent crimes and murders...UK and Aussie are prime examples.

The violent crime rate in the UK is 3 times higher than in the USA.

When only the police have guns they call that a Police State ;)

Then we need to make bullets expensive ? lol, I don't understand how crime increased in the UK n Aussie, probably because they smuggle it in from another country. :/

[abu_sme]

I don't know if you've been reading the Star or watching CNN today during Paula Zahn's segment but there are people, such as the gun store owner who sold Cho the 2nd gun, that say the US should have MORE LAX gun control laws so more people can get guns and have those guns allowed on campus. Their line of reasoning is that people could've stopped him in his tracks. That freaks me out, man. I think it's insane to have these buffoons suggest MORE deadly weapons, combatting a problem with more of the catalyst of that problem. And can you imagine people in class packing heat??!! Jesus Christ! I once had a Cho Seung-Hui kinda guy in a class once and he was a loner, Asian too and once, some of us saw him AIR PUNCHING in front of a reflective classroom sign before class. We were all WTF. He could be crazy like Cho but without the means or will to get the firearms. With all these mentally imbalanced people like him, I think, and others with short fuses bringing guns to class, omigosh. I would enrol in an online university!

In the U.S. this may have some practicality though. You cannot ban guns in the U.S, it is impossbile. There are so many guns in the U.S. already that it just won't happen. He's right, if some of them had concealed carry permits they could've stopped him in his tracks. Gun culture is so entrenched in the U.S. that this is one of the most practical ways of controlling it.

In Canada, because we don't have guns everywhere, it doesn't make sense to have people carrying guns for protection. You can legally own handguns in Canada, and since the introduction of the gun registry it is actually easier to legally get a hand gun. I can't remember what the process was before the registry, but I think it involved going to the police station, getting finger printed, and waiting for them to process an application. It was slow. The gun registry for hand guns makes sense, but for hunting rifles it is simplyunrealistic as there are SO many in Canada. Enough for every man women and child in fact.

[xsighted]

Every place in the world that has instituted gun bans has seen sharp increases in violent crimes and murders...UK and Aussie are prime examples.

The violent crime rate in the UK is 3 times higher than in the USA.

When only the police have guns they call that a Police State ;)

source?

besides, you can use statistics to prove anything, even if it's not true.

"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything, Kent. 14% of people know that."

[UrbanPoet]

In the U.S. this may have some practicality though. You cannot ban guns in the U.S, it is impossbile. There are so many guns in the U.S. already that it just won't happen. He's right, if some of them had concealed carry permits they could've stopped him in his tracks. Gun culture is so entrenched in the U.S. that this is one of the most practical ways of controlling it.

In Canada, because we don't have guns everywhere, it doesn't make sense to have people carrying guns for protection. You can legally own handguns in Canada, and since the introduction of the gun registry it is actually easier to legally get a hand gun. I can't remember what the process was before the registry, but I think it involved going to the police station, getting finger printed, and waiting for them to process an application. It was slow. The gun registry for hand guns makes sense, but for hunting rifles it is simplyunrealistic as there are SO many in Canada. Enough for every man women and child in fact.


Well.... Canada kinda proves that gun control doesnt help at all..
we have SO many guns yet, we dont have hard core US crime, or hard core US massacres. yes it happens... but its rare.

We boast a quality of life that rivals the UK, and Australia (both of which have gun banns).

Suicide in Japan is also high despite a 99% complete gun ban. Yet they still have rampant suicide which people blame on "culture".

So thats probably the only way to stop gun violence, or violence of any kind. To promote a healthy, productive, and well founded society or "culture".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
check out swizerlands gun laws. It has probably the most liberal gun laws in the world, yet their quality of life is high.

[abu_sme]

Well.... Canada kinda proves that gun control doesnt help at all..
we have SO many guns yet, we dont have hard core US crime, or hard core US massacres. yes it happens... but its rare.

We boast a quality of life that rivals the UK, and Australia (both of which have gun banns).

Suicide in Japan is also high despite a 99% complete gun ban. Yet they still have rampant suicide which people blame on "culture".

So thats probably the only way to stop gun violence, or violence of any kind. To promote a healthy, productive, and well founded society or "culture".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland
check out swizerlands gun laws. It has probably the most liberal gun laws in the world, yet their quality of life is high.


Switzerland is a little bit unique in that everyone is considered part of the militia and it is to protect the country from invaders. So they are all well trained, and it actually does have fairly regulated gun ownership.

[UrbanPoet]

source?

besides, you can use statistics to prove anything, even if it's not true.

according to my latest copy of UN's crime rate report...
England/Wales has a reported crime rate of 9700 reported crimes per 100,000 people.

Canada has 8000 per 100,000
USA has 8500 per 100,000

[UrbanPoet]

Switzerland is a little bit unique in that everyone is considered part of the militia and it is to protect the country from invaders. So they are all well trained, and it actually does have fairly regulated gun ownership.

yes... but every person serving in the military has to have their rifle and AMMO locked up in their house.

You can buy a gun with only an ID and a clean record (like in the USA) except they dont have a mandatory waiting time like the USA.

So this debunks the theory of "guns automatically make you scary killing machines" b/c in this country, they have guns available everywherE!!!
if there was a crazy in switzerland... he could probably go over to his uncles house while hes at work with a crowbar, and get into his military issue rifle and ammo.

[rockthecasbah]

In the U.S. this may have some practicality though. You cannot ban guns in the U.S, it is impossbile. There are so many guns in the U.S. already that it just won't happen. He's right, if some of them had concealed carry permits they could've stopped him in his tracks. Gun culture is so entrenched in the U.S. that this is one of the most practical ways of controlling it.

In Canada, because we don't have guns everywhere, it doesn't make sense to have people carrying guns for protection. You can legally own handguns in Canada, and since the introduction of the gun registry it is actually easier to legally get a hand gun. I can't remember what the process was before the registry, but I think it involved going to the police station, getting finger printed, and waiting for them to process an application. It was slow. The gun registry for hand guns makes sense, but for hunting rifles it is simplyunrealistic as there are SO many in Canada. Enough for every man women and child in fact.


I probably should've added that perhaps those who are in charged of campus safety, i.e. security guards, can carry weapons. I know that at my alma mater, the security guards just have a baton and tazer, I believe it was, which wouldn't really be helpful in a situation where a deadly weapon is involved. Of course, they shouldn't just hand out guns to whoever applies and gets the job. There should be the same kind of tests/assessment given to police officers for anyone in a position of authority handed a firearm (in that situation).

But I think that the assumption that Cho could've been stopped assumes that a) either a faculty member has a gun (which may be okay, based on my assumption that these professors/instructors are responsible folks) or/and b) the students (which seems to be what the "make the gun laws more lax" folks are saying since they never said ONLY A CERTAIN GROUP OF PEOPLE can bring guns onto the campus, just that it should easier to obtain firearms).

Now with the latter situation, with the faculty AND students being with guns, then wouldn't that cause a problematic situation for police who would respond? To burst into a room to stop the shooting, without being able to fully assess the situation WITH COMMUNICATION, and having all these people holding guns? Without really knowing who is *the* shooter, a.k.a. the person to take down?

Anyway, I just have mainly a problem with the "everyone and anyone can and should be able to have a gun and bring it to school" line of thought. It assumes and TRUSTS that everyone acts accordingly and responsibly with their firearms in any given situation. I've seen fellow students get into heated fights on campus and God only knows whether, in a moment of rage and if these folks got their way for easier access to guns, that same person could pull out a gun.


Lastly, the outright banning of guns is not really a plausable solution right now, given your points and yeah, that won't be happening and I doubt anyone would think that could happen. It's more about creating more hurdles to get guns, rather than less IMO.

---

:arrowu: And to get off the topic of gun control in OT, here's an article about how Cho might've told someone about his plans via hotair.com
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/04/20/weekend-vtech-thread-cho-may-have-told-someone-of-his-plans/

[Peckerwood]

source?

besides, you can use statistics to prove anything, even if it's not true.
UK Home Office Statistics...violent crime rate for 2005 ...2013/100,000
FBI Justice Statistics...violent crime rate for 2005 ...780/100,000

The violent crime rate for 1995 for the UK was 440/100,000...that was when they instituted their handgun bans

Do some research

[Peckerwood]

Then we need to make bullets expensive ? lol, I don't understand how crime increased in the UK n Aussie, probably because they smuggle it in from another country. :/
Obviously you dont quite get it...the reason that the violent crime rate has gone up is the fact that victims are no longer allowed to defend themselves in the UK with force.

And what does the last portion of your sentence suggest...that they import crime from another country?...or are you suggesting that they are importing guns from other countries and therefore only guns are the source of crime?

When you make a point try and make it coherent so that I can reply to it without having to guess at it's origin or meaning...please

:)

[xsighted]

UK Home Office Statistics...violent crime rate for 2005 ...2013/100,000
FBI Justice Statistics...violent crime rate for 2005 ...780/100,000

The violent crime rate for 1995 for the UK was 440/100,000...that was when they instituted their handgun bans

Do some research

well, that doesnt say that handgun ban leads to a higher rate of violent crimes. rather suggests that handgun ban did not improve violent crime rate ..

those numbers on their own say nothing .. a research study would be better

[masterhapposai]

I disagree, because Insane ppl I think have some sort of mental illness, this guy, I mean if he had any mental issues, then i think ppl would have been aware of that, and it would have been on the news. I think it clearly made him do it because of what he went through in life. Theres no excuse for what he did though it was horrible, and he should be punished, but the fact is he wasn't insane, he could think for himself, something went really wrong, maybe we'll find out more details later.. I'd still like to know what made him go do what he did.




Ok,

I(t has been established that he has a mental illness. A mental illness that distorts the facts, this has been known since he was a little kid..

So can we please stop the "I'm not defending his actions, but it is society's fault" garbage. You ARE defending his action. I am sorry, but if you take anything that he says in his video as truth you are seriously gullible. The guy was delusional, as a result of his craziness.

I have suffered from depression in the past, and I felt like everyone was out to get me at one point. Was it true? Absolutely not. A mental illness makes you think everyone is out to get you, but the reality can be completely different. The guy was metally screwed up, and he could have been treated like gold and he STILL would think everyone is out to get him.

Exactly, those posts have to stop.

People have to wake up, society/ronald mcdonald didn't make anyone do anything. The devil is a scapegoat, people are choosing to be *******s and killers all by themself just fine.

What we need are strict laws on determining mental deficiencies and illnesses early in childhood and dealing with appropriately.

[ZenOps]

I wouldn't attribute gun bans in Canada as being the main reason for low violent crimes here. It probably has a lot to do with extremely low population density and climate (its cold, which actually does reduce crimes of all types)

Here in Calgary, fistfights are rare - I attribute it to the cold weather and the high altitude (there is a lot less oxygen at 3500 feet) which honestly makes everyone feel slightly lethargic all the time - which tends to put a cold shower on every single action.

If you want to stop a concert riot, the quickest way is to turn the firehoses on people. You can't throw a half decent punch if you are shivering.

[dre145]

I wouldn't attribute gun bans in Canada as being the main reason for low violent crimes here. It probably has a lot to do with extremely low population density and climate (its cold, which actually does reduce crimes of all types)

Here in Calgary, fistfights are rare - I attribute it to the cold weather and the high altitude (there is a lot less oxygen at 3500 feet) which honestly makes everyone feel slightly lethargic all the time - which tends to put a cold shower on every single action.

If you want to stop a concert riot, the quickest way is to turn the firehoses on people. You can't throw a half decent punch if you are shivering.

agreed look at the population of canada and US, now look at people per sq kilometer in both countries, now there are a lot more factors that go into this but consider those 2 first

[formalentity]

Obviously you dont quite get it...the reason that the violent crime rate has gone up is the fact that victims are no longer allowed to defend themselves in the UK with force.

And what does the last portion of your sentence suggest...that they import crime from another country?...or are you suggesting that they are importing guns from other countries and therefore only guns are the source of crime?

When you make a point try and make it coherent so that I can reply to it without having to guess at it's origin or meaning...please

:)

sure maybe your right, but in my personal opinion thats a totally different situation in Canada, I think its obvious that the majority of the Canadians do not have a Weapon for defense.. correct me if i'm wrong... As for smuggling I meant from what I heard a lot of weapons are smuggled into Canada from the U.S. but i could be wrong, it was something I heard I can't say it's fact..

[formalentity]

Exactly, those posts have to stop.

People have to wake up, society/ronald mcdonald didn't make anyone do anything. The devil is a scapegoat, people are choosing to be *******s and killers all by themself just fine.

What we need are strict laws on determining mental deficiencies and illnesses early in childhood and dealing with appropriately.

those were my views b4 I read up on the guy. You didn't check out my new posts:P anyways I agree with you determining illnesses at an early age is best and dealing with it :) so it doesn't happen again

[newsflash]

well written. I'm glad they did this instead of being interviewed on TV.

The family is in hiding under police protection. For their own sake, I hope the media leaves them alone. I can't imagine what they're going through knowing their son/brother did this.

"He has made the world weep. We are living a nightmare." :(

[manixc]

UK Home Office Statistics...violent crime rate for 2005 ...2013/100,000
FBI Justice Statistics...violent crime rate for 2005 ...780/100,000

The violent crime rate for 1995 for the UK was 440/100,000...that was when they instituted their handgun bans

Do some research

Just a thought, UK has a higher population density than the US. maybe that effect the crime rate.

[solidxxx]

We can all thank US freedom of speech and democracy, there is no respect for elders, no respect for parents, and no respect for other human beings because North America is a place of freedom and it is the only continent that represents the world, all other continents are distant planets, foreign, and evil. North Americans are all responsible for this, with the grabge that this society teaches our kids and jams down thier throats.

[abu_sme]

He was known at a very young age to be "different," I personally know 3 people who have forms of autism. Two of them have asbergers (sp?) which is the EXTREMELY high functioning autism. The two guys I know, both of whom are brothers are very socially awkward, yet they are absolute geniuses. One can recite entire books from memory. You cna ask him to read the 3rd sentence on page 81 of a book that he read 3 months ago and he can recite it exactly verbatim.

Their parents have put all they have got into helping their kids. They've seen all the experts, tried all the medication, and they've tried all of it. Mental illnesses of this degree can't be cured by drugs. It really depends on severity. One of the borthers is more adjusted, he responds to behaviour therapy, and has a reasonable chance of making a go in life. The other brother is not, he is un-responsive, he is completely disassociated with life. You can talk to him and he will pretend you are not there. His behaviour is a lot like Cho's come to think of it.

I can see the pent up anguish in the latter brother, he does seem disassociated, but at the same time I can feel his frustration.


But what do you do about them? They haven't broken any laws being born like this. Its not like they don't want to be better, but there is no silver bullet in helping these people. I think the very fact that Cho got into university with his condition is something that is admirable for someone with his condition.

But where do you draw the line on intervening? When do you throw the dragnet to far and get someone who isn't.


It is very sad what happened at VT, but it is really hard to figure out what can be done to prevent it.


Also: I do think that Canada does have lower crime rates as a result of guns NOT being used for self defence. I also think that there is more racial tension and a wider gap between socio-economic groups within the US. I am pretty happy with the way the gun laws are right now. I approve of the gun registry for hand guns, but not for rifles...mainly because the gun registry made it easier to buy handguns:)

[Peckerwood]

sure maybe your right, but in my personal opinion thats a totally different situation in Canada, I think its obvious that the majority of the Canadians do not have a Weapon for defense.. correct me if i'm wrong... As for smuggling I meant from what I heard a lot of weapons are smuggled into Canada from the U.S. but i could be wrong, it was something I heard I can't say it's fact..
This is true, that many firearms recovered in crime have been found to have been smuggled from the US. As a point, how can anyone trsut such people like Michael Bryant who states from a TPS report that 50% of crime guns are found to have been stolen from Canadian owners...well guess what...I have that TPS report and when you look at the way the report was tabled, it is full of things like "Believed to be from Canada", and "Assumed to be of Canadian origin"

That report was a sham from the beginning...when you tally the actual known Canadian origin firearms that were verified as registered here in Kanuckistaniland, you get 16.35%.

Here is the report:
http://usera.imagecave.com/peckerwood/tpsa.JPG
http://usera.imagecave.com/peckerwood/tpsb.JPG

Notice how they took "unkown origin" firearms, and "not registered", and "too old to trace" and simply lumped them in with the "registered" ones on file as stolen...all to beef up the stats artificially. And the media even when made aware of this fact refused to do a story on the fudged numbers...despite NWEST(National Weapons Enforcement and Support Team) also countering the TPS claim.

In fact according to NWEST nationally US smuggled guns account for close to 95% of the recovered "crime guns" that they confiscate in their busts; which is reflected provincially across the board. But in Toronto apparently they account for only 50% :rolleyes:

So when your own elected officials are fudging the reports to sway public opinion then how can you trust anything else they say?

[Bazooka Joe]

I wish there was another forum (or subforum) where it would be more appropriate to talk about things like gun control.

[afong56]

I wish there was another forum (or subforum) where it would be more appropriate to talk about things like gun control.

i wrote exactly the same thing over 400 posts ago (#246). . .

sadly, people went right ahead bantering. . .

[SergesPlace]

Here's a thought, why don't one of you guys just START ONE?

[masterhapposai]

He was known at a very young age to be "different," I personally know 3 people who have forms of autism. Two of them have asbergers (sp?) which is the EXTREMELY high functioning autism. The two guys I know, both of whom are brothers are very socially awkward, yet they are absolute geniuses. One can recite entire books from memory. You cna ask him to read the 3rd sentence on page 81 of a book that he read 3 months ago and he can recite it exactly verbatim.

Their parents have put all they have got into helping their kids. They've seen all the experts, tried all the medication, and they've tried all of it. Mental illnesses of this degree can't be cured by drugs. It really depends on severity. One of the borthers is more adjusted, he responds to behaviour therapy, and has a reasonable chance of making a go in life. The other brother is not, he is un-responsive, he is completely disassociated with life. You can talk to him and he will pretend you are not there. His behaviour is a lot like Cho's come to think of it.

I can see the pent up anguish in the latter brother, he does seem disassociated, but at the same time I can feel his frustration.


But what do you do about them? They haven't broken any laws being born like this. Its not like they don't want to be better, but there is no silver bullet in helping these people. I think the very fact that Cho got into university with his condition is something that is admirable for someone with his condition.

But where do you draw the line on intervening? When do you throw the dragnet to far and get someone who isn't.


It is very sad what happened at VT, but it is really hard to figure out what can be done to prevent it.


Also: I do think that Canada does have lower crime rates as a result of guns NOT being used for self defence. I also think that there is more racial tension and a wider gap between socio-economic groups within the US. I am pretty happy with the way the gun laws are right now. I approve of the gun registry for hand guns, but not for rifles...mainly because the gun registry made it easier to buy handguns:)

their condition involves not being able to handle other people

that means they shouldn't go to public school and don't belong in crowded places.

place them in private schools specially suited for their needs with people like them, so they perhaps can even get a relationship going.


This killer guy was totally out of his water, and couldn't cope with it. He's probably a new type or unstudied version of autism, which is very dangerous. He retains all the negatives of autism yet the jealousy, competiveness and rage building of a regular healthy person. Mix the 2 and you have someone capable of anything, a real threat to society unless kept away from others.

The Montreal shooter was sick in the head.

The columbine shooters, I presume at least one of them was mentally ill, and they built a cult around this person's ideas.

If you investigate all the school shootings and study their brains, I'm sure we'd come up with a pattern. They were all not well.

With one fell swoop, you'd have saved hundreds if not thousands of lives per year if mental health was taken more seriously than handing out prozac candy.

[ww667]

First of all,
I mourn for all life that was lost in this event.
I only can imagine what are families of victims are going true and I wish I could ease the pain.

And now my rant.
Why is every one pointing fingers what could of bean done, should of bean done, who to blame and what will be done. It will not change the past.
No matter what government dose ore people do there will be always some one who will do some thing terrible as this shooting and nothing we do will stop them.

Can I blame the shooter for his actions? As of this point I really can’t and won’t even pretend to understand why did he do it, or what was his motive. I do know one thing no one and I mean no one would go on shooting rampage without having a reason for it.
I know that this world can be cruel and cold place. It can be hard and some times you don’t see way out. Some times you feel like every one else in the world is against you and anger flows true your veins.
Unfortunately that is a part of life and you will just need to find a way to make it better.
Giving up will never solve any thing.

At this time I believe it is best to let every one who was in any way associated to victims be left mourn their looses.
And I just hope that this world will some day become better place without all the stereotyping cruelty and senseless murders no mater what’s the reason.

If it dose not well we will just wipe our self’s out of existence and may be it is not that bad of a thing.

[Phat_cow]

I'm really glad I didn't have a gun back in the days or even know of any school shootings because I probably would've done the samething. I don't blame guns...I blame those people who makes fun of people that are different from them.

You guys probably don't know but I'm Asian as well and I've been picked on/bullied a lot when I was in school. Not so much in highschool but it still existed.

I hope the media will stop showing so much of this crap because it's just gonna give ideas to those kids that are ready to explode.

[Webslinger]

http://www.thestar.com/article/205363

Apr 20, 2007 04:30 AM
Matt Apuzzo
Associated Press

BLACKSBURG, Va.–Long before he boiled over, Virginia Tech gunman Cho Seung-Hui was pushed around and laughed at as a schoolboy in suburban Washington because of his shyness and the strange, mumbly way he talked, former classmates say.

Chris Davids, a Virginia Tech senior who graduated from Westfield High School in Chantilly, Va., with Cho in 2003, recalled that the South Korean immigrant almost never opened his mouth and would ignore attempts to strike up a conversation.

Once, in English class, the teacher had the students read aloud, and when it was Cho's turn, he just looked down in silence, Davids recalled. Finally, after the teacher threatened him with an F for participation, Cho started to read in a strange, deep voice that sounded "like he had something in his mouth," Davids said.

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

The high school classmates' accounts add to the psychological portrait that is beginning to take shape, and could shed light on the video rant Cho mailed to NBC in the middle of his rampage at Virginia Tech.

In the often-incoherent video, the 23-year-old Cho portrays himself as persecuted and rants about rich kids.

Among the victims of the massacre were two other Westfield High graduates: Reema Samaha and Erin Peterson. Both young women graduated from the high school last year. Police said it is not clear whether Cho singled them out.

Stephanie Roberts, 22, a member of Cho's graduating class at Westfield High, said she never witnessed anyone picking on Cho in high school.

"I just remember he was a shy kid who didn't really want to talk to anybody," she said. "I guess a lot of people felt like maybe there was a language barrier.'' But she said friends of hers who went to middle school with Cho told her they recalled him getting picked on there.

"There were just some people who were really mean to him and they would push him down and laugh at him," Roberts said. "He didn't speak English really well and they would really make fun of him.''

In South Korea, Cho's maternal grandfather told newspapers that relatives were concerned about Cho not talking much as a child.

Cho "troubled his parents a lot when he was young because he couldn't speak well, but was well-behaved," the grandfather, who was identified by only his last name, Kim, told the Dong-A Ilbo daily. The family was worried that Cho might even be mute, the 81-year-old grandfather said in a separate interview with Hankyoreh newspaper.

In another interview, Cho's uncle, who also identified himself only as Kim, said his sister – Cho's mother – occasionally called around holidays, but never mentioned having any problems with her son.

"She said the children were studying well. She didn't seem worried about her children at all," Kim said. "She just talked about how hard she had to work to make a living, to support the children."

She and her husband work at a dry cleaners in suburban Washington.

Regan Wilder, 21, who attended Virginia Tech, high school and middle school with Cho, said she was in several classes with Cho in high school, including advanced-placement calculus and Spanish. She said he walked around with his head down, and almost never spoke. And when he did, it was "a real low mutter, like a whisper.''

As part of an exam in Spanish class, students had to answer questions in Spanish on tape, and other students were so curious to know what Cho sounded like that they waited eagerly for the teacher to play his recording, she said. She said that, on the tape, he did not speak confidently but did seem to know Spanish.

Wilder recalled high school teachers trying to get him to participate, but "he would only shrug his shoulders or he'd give like two-word responses, and I think it just got to the point where teachers just gave up because they realized he wasn't going to come out of the shell he was in, so they just kind of passed him over for the most part as time went on.''

She said she was sure Cho probably was picked on in middle school, but so was everyone else. And it didn't seem as if English was the problem for him, she said. If he didn't speak English well, there were several other Korean students he could have reached out to for friendship, but he didn't, she said.

Wilder said Cho wasn't any friendlier in college, where "he always had that same damn blank stare, like a glare, on his face. And I'd always try to make eye contact with him because I recognized the kid because I'd seen him for six years, but he'd always just look right past you like you weren't there.''

[impronto]

it's scary to see how easy access he had to the guns.

[Peckerwood]

it's scary to see how easy access he had to the guns.
It's scary to see how easily the students were denied access to guns for defense

Even though many of them had valid CCW permits

[ZenOps]

It's scary to see how easily the students were denied access to guns for defense

Even though many of them had valid CCW permits

It won't be long before every average citizen (good and evil) will have access to a 20 kilogram hand nuke. What then?

[Peckerwood]

It won't be long before every average citizen (good and evil) will have access to a 20 kilogram hand nuke. What then?
Yeaaaah...Riiiiiiiiight.....Cause we all know that the private ownership of firearms is akin to owning indiscriminate nuclear weapons.

:rolleyes:

Could you get any more sensationalist?

[ZenOps]

Hey, noone a few centuries ago thought anyone would actually develop a firearm that could kill more than a few dozen people (machine guns)

Timothy Mcveigh was limited in financing, so he could only build a truck bomb from fertilizer that took out one building (168 dead, 850 injured). But eventually it will move to nuclear - meaning one city. Maniacs know no bounds.

The 9/11 guy was limited in ability, he only had a knife, and he too could only take out the largest building in the world (dont even want to go into deaths, or even if it actually happened at rush hour.)

Had Cho actually made a bomb with the same amount of financing as a few hundred rounds of ammo (possibly he did not know how to make one) it could have been much, much, much, worse.

[Peckerwood]

Hey, noone a few centuries ago thought anyone would actually develop a firearm that could kill more than a few dozen people (machine guns)

Timothy Mcveigh was limited in financing, so he could only build a truck bomb from fertilizer that took out one building. But eventually it will move to nuclear - meaning one city. Maniacs know no bounds.

The 9/11 guy was limited in ability, he only had a knife, and he too could only take out the largest building in the world.
I hope that you aren't going to try to equate psychopaths to everyday citizens?

It doesnt matter that the psychos didnt have access to nukes...the fact remains that they had access to guns and preferred to use large scale strikes instead.

The issue with any shooter's effectiveness in a killing spree, has a great deal to do with how many easy unarmed vicitms are placed before him.

There was a kid in Virginia only a few years back that went to his college with the intent of killing students...yet was stopped by two other students with Concealed Carry permits...they held him at gunpoint until the police arrived. But we don't hear anything in the media about those kinds of success stories do we...not enough bodies to swing around I guess.

[weedb0y]

Why do you sound like you understand his whole life situation? How are you so sure he wasn't a victim? Although his actions weren't justified, it doesn't make him any less of a victim than he could've been. These students/profs who act like they knew him are just joining the herd to make him look like the psycho who wouldn't give his friends a chance. If he was as depressed the media is making him out to be, I doubt anyone tried to approach him.

Excellent point. Media is all about the drama. Whatever gets them the highest viewership. I seriously doubt anyone tried helping him out or even tried talking to him as well over years and years.

[Peckerwood]

Excellent point. Media is all about the drama. Whatever gets them the highest viewership. I seriously doubt anyone tried helping him out or even tried talking to him as well over years and years.
This is quite correct on both points.

The media doesnt give a damn about showing things in the light they originate from...nor are they about truth. They only want money and the root to the money is found in the number of viewers they can get

[Colargo]

It's scary to see how easily the students were denied access to guns for defense

Even though many of them had valid CCW permits



The issue with any shooter's effectiveness in a killing spree, has a great deal to do with how many easy unarmed vicitms are placed before him.

There was a kid in Virginia only a few years back that went to his college with the intent of killing students...yet was stopped by two other students with Concealed Carry permits...they held him at gunpoint until the police arrived. But we don't hear anything in the media about those kinds of success stories do we...not enough bodies to swing around I guess.

For every shooting spree concealed carry may prevent, how many accidental or firearm related murders and injuries will increase by allowing students or everyone to carry guns? Maybe police who respond to a campus shooting may cause accidental death by shooting the wrong student who happened to carry a gun but wasn't the killer.

Also violent crime may have decreased in the US, but how about gun related murders? 10,000+ firearm murders a year in the US, far more than all of Western Europe combined. And we're not even mentioning the thousands more gun related injuries.

When talking about guns and the US, I sometimes think about that movie Bowling for Columbine where they had a short cartoon in it about Americans, guns and fear. No matter how many guns they had, they were always afraid and wanted more and more guns to protect themselves.

So really, how many guns do Americans need to feel safe? There's over 200 million guns in the possesion of about 80-100 million Americans already. How many more do you need? 300 million? 400? Enough guns so that every man, woman, child and unborn fetus will have one? Will Americans feel safe then? Probably not.

[Peckerwood]

For every shooting spree concealed carry may prevent, how many accidental or firearm related murders and injuries will increase by allowing students or everyone to carry guns?
By your statement you are assuming that people will be more effective at the safe use of an object by handling it less often...like how drivers would be safer if they just stayed the hell away from cars...or surgeons from scalpels. People do not become more aware of tools and implements by not handling them, they instead become more respectful of given tools with the more experience they accumulate in their use.

Many Police Offciers spend about 3 weeks a year doing their mandated Firearm's Training and Profficiency tests...and that is while they are still on active duty during the same time period...so perhaps 2 hrs a day for 3 weeks on duty. Given that many Officers will actually do 4 days on and 4 off...that leaves about 24 hours of total range time in an entire year.

Many CCW holders will train for hundreds of hours a year at various safety training courses and Concealed Carry courses. On par they are usually better trained than most Police Officers in the same field of defensive use of Firearms. The reason that most PO's only do the three weeks standard is that they have a far greater workload in respect to the rest of their job, entailing the entire scope and field of Law Enforcement.

If you still feel that accidents will go up with a greater advent of CCW, then you should have no problem finding correlating stats of increased CCW accidents and injuries ;)
Maybe police who respond to a campus shooting may cause accidental death by shooting the wrong student who happened to carry a gun but wasn't the killer.
If the Police are not First Responders then they, as Servants of the Law, must then go thrugh the procedure of threat identification. And simply the mere sight of someone with a gun does not indicate an immediate threat. Police in CCW states are trained in how to approach such scenarios, and in turn quickly gain a hand from the surrounding trained CCW holders on site.

In this respect, the Police are thusly reliant upon the community for direct and immediate information of specific events as they transpire upon their arrival.

As a point, the Police are generally available only AFTER an event has already taken place. They are a reactionary force that is designed specifically to gather evidence for trial and mop up the scene afterwards. In both the US and Canadian Supreme Courts, they held that Police are not duty-bound to protect the citizenry, nor can they be held liable for not doing so.

Sorry, but we are on our own.
Also violent crime may have decreased in the US, but how about gun related murders? 10,000+ firearm murders a year in the US, far more than all of Western Europe combined. And we're not even mentioning the thousands more gun related injuries.
Gun related murders have also gone down in each and every state that has instituted CCW reform. the states that still have the highest murder rates also have the greatest gun control. Murder rate for Washington DC is 43/100,000 with 80% of their homicides done with handguns ...newsflash ...handguns are banned in DC. Only recently has the DC supreme court overturned the ban as unconsitutional citing that the "Right to Keep and Bear Arms is an Individual Right"

No surprise that the District of Columbia is filing an appeal...I mean they can't be seen as being wrong now can they?
When talking about guns and the US, I sometimes think about that movie Bowling for Columbine where they had a short cartoon in it about Americans, guns and fear. No matter how many guns they had, they were always afraid and wanted more and more guns to protect themselves.
I havent seen that movie
So really, how many guns do Americans need to feel safe? There's over 200 million guns in the possesion of about 80-100 million Americans already. How many more do you need? 300 million? 400? Enough guns so that every man, woman, child and unborn fetus will have one? Will Americans feel safe then? Probably not.
The numbers are close to 300 million now. Also, they hold close to 50% of the world's total private gun ownership.

Where do the genocides keep happening again? In each and every place the UN has assisted in disarming civilians. More people have been killed in history through the advent of gun control than have ever been saved by it.

175 million and counting just in this last century alone

[Kali]

This teacher is pretty dumb. :rolleyes:

http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=4b7aed14-a5b1-4e28-824d-b6db4d913e0a&k=8689

Saturday, April 21, 2007


DELTA, B.C. (CP) - A drama teacher at a suburban Vancouver elementary school is expressing regret for having her students re-enact the Virginia Tech massacre.

The principal at South Park elementary school in Delta says the teacher has used topical news events as the basis for her plays in the past.

But this time Doug Thomson agrees with some students and parents who say she went too far.

The Grade 6 and Grade 7 students were asked to play roles from Monday's massacre in which a mentally ill student gunned down 32 students and teachers at the U.S. college before killing himself.

Thomson says one group of three boys depicted a shooting.

A young Korean girl was apparently most upset. The Virginia Tech shooter was Korean-American.

Thomson says the teacher has been advised she made a huge error in judgment and has expressed remorse.

"This was a completely inappropriate lesson for this particular group of children," the principal said Friday.

"I can't think of any group of children, perhaps senior high students, who would be able to handle it."


© The Canadian Press 2007

[Colargo]

By your statement you are assuming that people will be more effective at the safe use of an object by handling it less often...like how drivers would be safer if they just stayed the hell away from cars...or surgeons from scalpels. People do not become more aware of tools and implements by not handling them, they instead become more respectful of given tools with the more experience they accumulate in their use.

Many Police Offciers spend about 3 weeks a year doing their mandated Firearm's Training and Profficiency tests...and that is while they are still on active duty during the same time period...so perhaps 2 hrs a day for 3 weeks on duty. Given that many Officers will actually do 4 days on and 4 off...that leaves about 24 hours of total range time in an entire year.

Many CCW holders will train for hundreds of hours a year at various safety training courses and Concealed Carry courses. On par they are usually better trained than most Police Officers in the same field of defensive use of Firearms. The reason that most PO's only do the three weeks standard is that they have a far greater workload in respect to the rest of their job, entailing the entire scope and field of Law Enforcement.

By your reasoning then, you're assuming every who's had hundreds of hours of training will be very proficient in the use guns. This of course is false, just as its not true that people who've driven cars for years and years are all safe drivers.

People who've driven 10, 20, 30 years should be the best drivers around and respect the tool that is the car, but that isn't really the case for alot of people is it?

Also, you're assuming that everyone who goes through all this intensive training will be able to put it to use when the time actually comes. People react differently under stress, so who's to say that everyone carrying a gun is going to fully utilize their training rather than just crack under pressure and either do nothing or shoot an unintended target by accident?


If the Police are not First Responders then they, as Servants of the Law, must then go thrugh the procedure of threat identification. And simply the mere sight of someone with a gun does not indicate an immediate threat. Police in CCW states are trained in how to approach such scenarios, and in turn quickly gain a hand from the surrounding trained CCW holders on site.

In this respect, the Police are thusly reliant upon the community for direct and immediate information of specific events as they transpire upon their arrival.

As a point, the Police are generally available only AFTER an event has already taken place. They are a reactionary force that is designed specifically to gather evidence for trial and mop up the scene afterwards. In both the US and Canadian Supreme Courts, they held that Police are not duty-bound to protect the citizenry, nor can they be held liable for not doing so.

Sorry, but we are on our own.

Police have a hard enough time as it is going through threat identification with how things are already. If everyone on campus is carrying a gun and has it pulled out when something happens, how are cops suppose to know who's who? Cops are going to have an even tougher time of evacuating people since they all have to be disarmed and checked before they can clear them out.

Tensions are high, police are hyped when they arrive on the scene, everyone has guns. How do they efficiently and quickly identify innocent students from a killer who's possibly hiding among them?

Another thing, how are students going to identify each other? Will they have to go through yet another program that will help them in this? And again in the heat of the moment will all these thousands of students remember their training and be able to shoot straight? Its one thing to do it on a firing range or obstacle course, its quite another to do it in real life. And even when they do take aim, there's always the chance that their bullets don't fly so true and they hit an innocent person. Then what? Just consider it colateral damage?

Think about it, through all the recent wars, from WWII onwards trained soldiers will miss their targets and cause innocent deaths and even battle hardened, experienced troops can crack under pressure, and you're telling me 30,000 young students on a school campus will perform just as good or better than trained soldiers? That 30,000 individuals on a campus will shoot straighter and be less prone to freaking out if they're in such a situation where they may have to kill someone?

Also, say they do prevent another massacre. What about the rest of the time when students drink and party like there's no tomorrow? Are you going to ban drinking and drugs and parties etc so that students will always be sober when they could be potentially handling a firearm at anytime?

Yeah drunken students with guns, what a great idea. :lol:

Gun related murders have also gone down in each and every state that has instituted CCW reform. the states that still have the highest murder rates also have the greatest gun control. Murder rate for Washington DC is 43/100,000 with 80% of their homicides done with handguns ...newsflash ...handguns are banned in DC. Only recently has the DC supreme court overturned the ban as unconsitutional citing that the "Right to Keep and Bear Arms is an Individual Right"

Can you tell me how many states that have CCW reform have had dramatic decreases in gun murders? How many major cities in those states have had signficant decreases in gun related deaths?

And anyway you cut it, its still at least 10,000 gun murders a year in the US.


The numbers are close to 300 million now. Also, they hold close to 50% of the world's total private gun ownership.

Where do the genocides keep happening again? In each and every place the UN has assisted in disarming civilians. More people have been killed in history through the advent of gun control than have ever been saved by it.

175 million and counting just in this last century alone

So how much security has 300 million guns bought you? Not enough apparently since you're still advocating for more people to carry guns and to carry them everywhere they go. To shopping malls, to baseball games, to supermarkets and parks and libraries and everywhere else, because you know, a massacre or a crime could be committed at anytime and you have to be prepared right?

Yes there have been genocides in the past century but since WWII, how many have occured in wealthy western countries? Like how about ZERO? Isn't the populace of western europe mostly gun free? Yet somehow they got by without getting wiped out by each other or by an external threat. Why is it that western europe as a whole with a similar population as the US has so many few gun related murders? How come europeans don't feel the need to arm up to protect themselves?

Myself I live in Toronto and there are maybe 30-50 gun related murders out of 70-90 murders in the city and surrounding area per year out of a population of roughly 4 million or so. If given the choice between being legally allowed to carry a firearm to protect myself from being a victim of crime or being one of those 90 murders a year or simply allowing the police to handle things as its always been, I would definitely choose the latter.

Does it really make sense to have an extra couple of million of handguns in the city all the time so that we can all 'protect ourselves' in case we're faced with a crazed gunman on a rampage? Or does it make sense to let police handle these situation that occur so every once in a while?

Why is it that you're willing to increase the number of guns and gun owners to protect yourselves against a relatively infrequent occurence, yet you completely overlook the fact that all these guns cause daily death and heartache for Americans across the country? 10,000+ gun murders a year, not including gun injuries. That's at least 27+ people murdered by guns everyday. That's a VT massacre happening everyday in America, yet you somehow completely overlook this in your quest for more protection with more guns.

[Peckerwood]

The majority of your logic is circular...but I will do the best I can despite the severe lack of reasoning on your part :)

By your reasoning then, you're assuming every who's had hundreds of hours of training will be very proficient in the use guns. This of course is false, just as its not true that people who've driven cars for years and years are all safe drivers.
So then perhaps by your reasoning or lack thereof we should then disarm all of the cops as they have less proficiency in firearms training than even many Canadian citizens who are licenced in the US to carry a concealed firearm.

Your opinion could best be summed as a belief that guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.
People who've driven 10, 20, 30 years should be the best drivers around and respect the tool that is the car, but that isn't really the case for alot of people is it?
In truth though many drivers dont really think of driving as a life or death decision...and on par with guns, motor vehicle accidents account for 10 times more deaths in Canada than guns...and the same in the US

Also, you're assuming that everyone who goes through all this intensive training will be able to put it to use when the time actually comes. People react differently under stress, so who's to say that everyone carrying a gun is going to fully utilize their training rather than just crack under pressure and either do nothing or shoot an unintended target by accident?
As I said...if this is the case then you should have no problem finding relevant stats and overwhelming case files to prove your point.
Police have a hard enough time as it is going through threat identification with how things are already. If everyone on campus is carrying a gun and has it pulled out when something happens, how are cops suppose to know who's who? Cops are going to have an even tougher time of evacuating people since they all have to be disarmed and checked before they can clear them out.
All this shows is a lack of knowledge on Police procedure.

The issue as it stands has already been hashed out by numerous Law Enforcement groups across the US...and many already have standing procedures on how to approach and deal with such scenarios. In a situation of evacuation the gunman is usually already held at bay or held in custody by the First Responders...armed Citizens. What you are suggesting instead is a conspiracy of idiocy on the part of everyone in the situation to simply forget who the shooter was out of ignorance in the heat of the moment.

Generally the only people who do not know who the shooter is in such an incident are the ones cowering for fear under desks and tables. Those that seek to find out more about the situation will take a look and then attempt to organize with others. At that point it is easy to tell the difference between a shooter and a gang of armed citizens readying for a retaliation. The difference is that the shooter is either firing indiscriminately at people...or he is already pinned own due to Civilians returning fire. when the Police arrive it will be clearly obvious as to who is who.

As for disarming citizens...they tried that in N.O.LA...and now they are being sued for endangering citizen's lives in a time of duress.
Tensions are high, police are hyped when they arrive on the scene, everyone has guns. How do they efficiently and quickly identify innocent students from a killer who's possibly hiding among them?
Either you are asking because you don't know or this is a rhetorical question...you could first try contacting Police Agencies in the US where CCW is prevalent and ask them on their procedures and protocols. Perhaps the reason why you have not asked yet is due to laziness ;)

And assuming that the Police are already hyped simply assumes that they are not proffessionals who take their job seriously and with caution and prudence
Another thing, how are students going to identify each other? Will they have to go through yet another program that will help them in this? And again in the heat of the moment will all these thousands of students remember their training and be able to shoot straight? Its one thing to do it on a firing range or obstacle course, its quite another to do it in real life.
I agree with the latter part of this paragraph...but the former just screams of ignorance on CCW practice already in place as well as relevant case files. Out of the issues where CCW has been used none of the scenarios you have suggested have occured yet. If you can find such scenarios however, I am open to such information and gladly welcome it.
And even when they do take aim, there's always the chance that their bullets don't fly so true and they hit an innocent person. Then what? Just consider it colateral damage?
Again...you should have absolutely no problem finding stats on such things...start looking and stop the conjecture.
Think about it, through all the recent wars, from WWII onwards trained soldiers will miss their targets and cause innocent deaths and even battle hardened, experienced troops can crack under pressure, and you're telling me 30,000 young students on a school campus will perform just as good or better than trained soldiers? That 30,000 individuals on a campus will shoot straighter and be less prone to freaking out if they're in such a situation where they may have to kill someone?
Now you are just being sensationalist and an emotionalist. By sensationalist I mean that you are clearly suggesting that there is a parallel between Combat in the Field of Battle...and self defense in a time of peace.

Laughable at best.

When was the last time that a self defense shooting occured where everyone was dressed in camouflage, grenades were exploding nearby, artillery fire was going off in every direction, and bombers were strafing the ground with BLU27 LGB's...I mean really...if you could get any more off topic, then you already have.

Just look at Columbine...Klebold and his buddy came in looking totally different than everyone else...they carry Tec9 Machine Pistols and start firing randomly into people...how difficult would it be to make them out? With VT the guy came in wearing a Load bearing vest and was carrying a pistol in each hand. Anyone even remotely trained at CCW and self defense knows that this is the worst way to guarantee shot placement...hence he already sticks out as an untrained amateur.

Hence the guys stick out like sore thumbs...easily recognizable.
Also, say they do prevent another massacre. What about the rest of the time when students drink and party like there's no tomorrow? Are you going to ban drinking and drugs and parties etc so that students will always be sober when they could be potentially handling a firearm at anytime?

Yeah drunken students with guns, what a great idea. :lol:
Same as previous...find me relevant data proving that this is a serious problem...I want hard data showing CCW holders shooting each other while drunk etc. With all of the CCW States down south, you shouldnt have a problem finding such cases.

Get to work :)
Can you tell me how many states that have CCW reform have had dramatic decreases in gun murders? How many major cities in those states have had signficant decreases in gun related deaths?
48 states to date have instituted some form of CCW...the two holdouts are Illinois and Wisconsin. All of the States that set forth CCW reform have seen marked drops in crime in relation to the number of CCW permits they issue. In other words the more permits issued...the greater the drop in relevant crime

In Vermont alone there is no license required to carry a firearm concealed. All you need to have is your FFL and a clean record...and away you go. No special training required...no courses to mandate. How many accidental shootings? How many deaths? How many increases in violent crime?...NONE They have the lowest crime in the Union with a murder rate of about 1.0/100,000...less than us...with about two in five of their adults carrying guns.
And anyway you cut it, its still at least 10,000 gun murders a year in the US.
You do realize that each State in the US has the right to govern themselves independantly right? Which means that each state has the means and measures to make their own laws in accordance to the Constitution. Hence they will have differing crime rates and differing homicide rates...as well as differing enforcement measures and differing judicial standards.

Lumping them all into one sum assumes that they all are governed Federally like us...they aren't. The states that have the least gun control are the ones driving the stats down...while the ones with the greater gun control are driving the stats up.

Vermont...legally carry a gun anytime anywhere anyhow...1.0/100,000 Homicide rate
Washington DC...No legal carry or ownership of handguns...43/100,000 Homicide rate

Virginia is right next to DC...their homicide rate is on par with the national average of about 5-6/100,000

Also...a major point to be made here...in both the US and Canada, 2/3 of all murderers already had a violent criminal history prior to murdering someone. To add, 2/3 of all Homicide victims also had a violent criminal record. 90% of all murderers had a criminal record(FBI Justice Stats)[/b]

[Peckerwood]

con't

So how much security has 300 million guns bought you? Not enough apparently since you're still advocating for more people to carry guns and to carry them everywhere they go. To shopping malls, to baseball games, to supermarkets and parks and libraries and everywhere else, because you know, a massacre or a crime could be committed at anytime and you have to be prepared right?
As concealed carry measures have increased in the US, crime has also steadily been dropping...and no increases have been seen except in the gun control states...they fluctuate readily.

Yes there have been genocides in the past century but since WWII, how many have occured in wealthy western countries? Like how about ZERO?
Yugoslavia was once considered to be a wealthy Western Nation...until their civil war and thusly Milosovic came on the scene...Kosovo anyone?
Isn't the populace of western europe mostly gun free?
Nope...Private gun ownership is heavily restricted in only about 3 Western European Countries.

And without the right to carry a firearm, the EU has already surpassed the US in Violent Crime rates across the board. With the UK leading the pack with three times the violent crime rate of the US, and a handgun epidemic that is seeing no slowdown despite the ban. In fact their crimes with handguns hasnt gone down since 95.
If given the choice between being legally allowed to carry a firearm to protect myself from being a victim of crime or being one of those 90 murders a year or simply allowing the police to handle things as its always been, I would definitely choose the latter.
And you have that right...but dont assume that I too must cower in a hole and practice the same failed strategy of "Cooperate And Die" Just because you prefer to. ;)
Does it really make sense to have an extra couple of million of handguns in the city all the time so that we can all 'protect ourselves' in case we're faced with a crazed gunman on a rampage?
You contradict yourself in full print at about this point with your previous statements.

Basically in your own logic, we must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid. Hence circular logic.
Why is it that you're willing to increase the number of guns and gun owners to protect yourselves against a relatively infrequent occurence, yet you completely overlook the fact that all these guns cause daily death and heartache for Americans across the country? 10,000+ gun murders a year, not including gun injuries. That's at least 27+ people murdered by guns everyday. That's a VT massacre happening everyday in America, yet you somehow completely overlook this in your quest for more protection with more guns.
Yet you yourself overlook the fact that majority of those committing homicides already have a violent criminal record...many are gang related...as well a drug turf wars and other drug related occurences.

Time to do the numbers buddy ;)

If you PM me I will give you an analysis of gun crimes by John R. Lott, Jr. and William M. Landes that was recently published in PDF format.

EDIT No need to PM me...I found it online for free :D Simply scroll down to the bottom and choose a download site from the ones listed

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=272929

--------------------------------------

And as an aside...for your reading pleasure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting

[Bazooka Joe]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/reade/tm_headline=no-shock%2D-just-horror-at-trigger%2Dhappy-usa--%26method=full%26objectid=18925793%26siteid=89520-name_page.html

THE redneck response to the Virginia Tech massacre could not have been more haunting had it been hollered to the accompaniment of duelling banjos.

Thirty-two deaths would never have happened, argued countless websites, activists and politicians, if the kids had utilised their right to bear arms, taken guns to class and shot back.

So the gun-worshippers' solution to America's serial school-slayings is clear. Arm the kids. I can just picture the scene in kitchens across the land each morning:

Mom: Waddaya want in your lunch-box with your pastrami-onrye, honey? A Glock 19 semiautomatic or a Colt AR-15?

Junior: Whatever.

Naturally Tony Blair was off the blocks quicker than Carl Lewis to tell America of our "deep shock". But I've yet to meet anyone remotely shocked by this, the USA's 19th gun rampage in 10 years.

Why should we be? When an Indian train crash kills 1,000 we shrug shoulders, deride them for not sorting out a recurrent problem, and give it five seconds on the tea-time news.

What do you recall of the methane blast at a Siberian coal mine last month that killed 110 men? Anything? Of course you don't. Those Russkies don't give a hoot about factory safety, so why should you? Yet when there's another US college shooting, we wipe out entire TV schedules, and indulge in a frenzy of fraternal soul-searching. Even though most of us feel contempt for a government which allows 200 million guns in private ownership, killing 30,000 people every year.

If we'd had 18 more Dunblanes after Dunblane, would we expect our allies to send messages of shock and sorrow, or hard advice on the need to address our uniquely horrific problem?

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Why don't our leaders reflect the communal derision towards a people who twist their own constitution? (The Second Amendment originally applied to organised militias, not individuals, fending off outside armies like the British).

Why not protest at the political puppets who do the bidding of the powerful billion-dollar gun industry? Puppets like George W Bush, who allowed Bill Clinton's ban on the sale of semi-automatic rifles to lapse. The same little rich boy, put in power simply to do rich men's bidding, who viewed his War On Terror as a game of cowboys and injuns.

This is a country in thrall to gratuitous violence. It's why it elected the Terminator as Governor of California.

It's why they whoop like billy-oh when Charlton Heston says gun law reformers will have to take his rifle from his "cold, dead hands."

Virginia Tech is the latest copycat mass murder, performed by loners who feel ostracised from the most aspirational, paranoid, dysfunctional and de-sensitised nation on Earth.

These are serial cullings of young innocents, which America is prepared to take in its stride to preserve its citizens' right to kill by bullet.

It's why, when the funerals of these 32 victims are done, and all the tear-stained flags folded away, normal service will be resumed.

And in a few months, a screwed-up inadequate who was hypnotised by the pictures from Blacksburg, will throw his credit card down in a gun shop in another town we've never heard of, and be handed the means to blow away his insignificance.

When it does, Prime Minister, tell them not of my deep sorrow but my deep disgust.

[Phat_cow]

http://www.thestar.com/article/205363
...

"As soon as he started reading, the whole class started laughing and pointing and saying, `Go back to China,'" Davids said.

T

Now I hope people will learn their lesson.

[SergesPlace]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/columnists/reade/tm_headline=no-shock%2D-just-horror-at-trigger%2Dhappy-usa--%26method=full%26objectid=18925793%26siteid=89520-name_page.html

"Virginia Tech is the latest copycat mass murder, performed by loners who feel ostracised from the most aspirational, paranoid, dysfunctional and de-sensitised nation on Earth."


So true. Great article.

[UrbanPoet]

this is coming from the fascist, lets bann guns, lets ban trans fats, lets ban everything UK until we have a situation like V for Vendetta!

[frogger]

this is coming from the fascist, lets bann guns, lets ban trans fats, lets ban everything UK until we have a situation like V for Vendetta!

So true, that was a horrible article coming from of all countries, the UK. As soon as you read the word redneck, you know the guy is an idiot.

[Talamasca]

Just saw on CNN how one student who narrowly escaped being shot at VT was killed today in a car accident. That's horrible. Like a real life Final Destination.

[abu_sme]

That had to be the worst article I have ever read. Britain, with a higher murder rate and crime rate scolding the US. Britain is a borderline police state. Glass houses,.

[Peckerwood]

Summed up as:

"Let's ban guns because people cannot be trusted, but we expect them to follow the Law because they can be trusted"

[konfusion666]

Good grief. A columnist writing a single article in the opinion section does not a National opinion make. :rolleyes:

[Bazooka Joe]

Edit: Guess I'm a hypocrite... this kind of stuff doesn't belong in Off Topic. Sorry.

[Peckerwood]

Since we're being so trusting, why don't we remove all laws? I mean only criminals murder, so if we make murder legal, then people will be afraid to murder since they will get murdered in return.
The Law by it's nature is not a preventative measure...it is only there to serve as a measure of judicial action after a crime has occured.

It is fallacy to think that a Law can prevent any crime from occurring

[konfusion666]

The Law by it's nature is not a preventative measure...it is only there to serve as a measure of judicial action after a crime has occured.

It is fallacy to think that a Law can prevent any crime from occurring

Most people are rational. Not all, but most. For them, various laws can act as deterrents.

[Colargo]

So then perhaps by your reasoning or lack thereof we should then disarm all of the cops as they have less proficiency in firearms training than even many Canadian citizens who are licenced in the US to carry a concealed firearm.

Your opinion could best be summed as a belief that guns are so complex that special training is necessary to use them properly, and so simple to use that they make murder easy.

In truth though many drivers dont really think of driving as a life or death decision...and on par with guns, motor vehicle accidents account for 10 times more deaths in Canada than guns...and the same in the US

So first you bring up that just as with driving cars, the more experience you have with guns the safer you'll be, yet now you changing your stance?

The fact is experienced drivers with many years of experience still make mistakes on the road. Why is this any different with guns?


The issue as it stands has already been hashed out by numerous Law Enforcement groups across the US...and many already have standing procedures on how to approach and deal with such scenarios. In a situation of evacuation the gunman is usually already held at bay or held in custody by the First Responders...armed Citizens. What you are suggesting instead is a conspiracy of idiocy on the part of everyone in the situation to simply forget who the shooter was out of ignorance in the heat of the moment.

Generally the only people who do not know who the shooter is in such an incident are the ones cowering for fear under desks and tables. Those that seek to find out more about the situation will take a look and then attempt to organize with others. At that point it is easy to tell the difference between a shooter and a gang of armed citizens readying for a retaliation. The difference is that the shooter is either firing indiscriminately at people...or he is already pinned own due to Civilians returning fire. when the Police arrive it will be clearly obvious as to who is who.

You make it sound so easy that people will quickly organize and hunt down the gunman and either kill or contain him until police arrive. Yet there's a good chance this won't happen at all. What happens if the gunman kills the first responders on the north side of a large building and those citizens armed with guns come from the south and haven't seen the gunman? When they arrive, couldn't the gunman say he shot the people who were about to go on a shooting rampage?

The fact is a that a situation could go either way. I'd rather have police handle the situation than have civilians start shooting so that they can save my ass.


Either you are asking because you don't know or this is a rhetorical question...you could first try contacting Police Agencies in the US where CCW is prevalent and ask them on their procedures and protocols. Perhaps the reason why you have not asked yet is due to laziness ;)

And assuming that the Police are already hyped simply assumes that they are not proffessionals who take their job seriously and with caution and prudence

I agree with the latter part of this paragraph...but the former just screams of ignorance on CCW practice already in place as well as relevant case files. Out of the issues where CCW has been used none of the scenarios you have suggested have occured yet. If you can find such scenarios however, I am open to such information and gladly welcome it.

Again...you should have absolutely no problem finding stats on such things...start looking and stop the conjecture.

You keep asking me for statistics, but the fact is the potential is there for such things to happen. Are you telling me everyone is going to be calm, cool and collected when faced with a gunman and have their shots be dead on all the time? Of course not. Which means there's potential for things to go wrong. What happens if innocent civilians are killed by other armed civilians? Then what? Opps sorry about the collateral damage, but we did get the gunman too.

I'm not saying everytime there's a situation occurs that innocent people will end up shooting other innocents it will happen at some point and then what? The fact that two innocent people died in a gunfight with a gunman may have saved dozens, MAYBE. But this doesn't change the fact that two innocents died from friendly gunfire that could have been prevented.

Now you are just being sensationalist and an emotionalist. By sensationalist I mean that you are clearly suggesting that there is a parallel between Combat in the Field of Battle...and self defense in a time of peace.

Laughable at best.

When was the last time that a self defense shooting occured where everyone was dressed in camouflage, grenades were exploding nearby, artillery fire was going off in every direction, and bombers were strafing the ground with BLU27 LGB's...I mean really...if you could get any more off topic, then you already have.

Just look at Columbine...Klebold and his buddy came in looking totally different than everyone else...they carry Tec9 Machine Pistols and start firing randomly into people...how difficult would it be to make them out? With VT the guy came in wearing a Load bearing vest and was carrying a pistol in each hand. Anyone even remotely trained at CCW and self defense knows that this is the worst way to guarantee shot placement...hence he already sticks out as an untrained amateur.

That's right, no grenades exploding nearby, no artillery fire no machine guns sweeping the field trying to kill them, yet people have breakdowns everyday. Alot of people are emotional and crack under stress. This is fact. Do I want people like these handling weapons even if they've went through training?

Weapons training only guarantees that you know how to use a weapon, but there's no test that can determine whether or not under stressful situations if they can perform and take out a killer if he's nearby. So if law abiding citizens or anyone for that matter is capable of experiencing a breakdown, what's to say they won't do so when it counts and they're faced with a gunman who's out to kill?

Who's to even say law abiding citizens won't have breakdowns and be the gunman themselves?

Same as previous...find me relevant data proving that this is a serious problem...I want hard data showing CCW holders shooting each other while drunk etc. With all of the CCW States down south, you shouldnt have a problem finding such cases.

You don't need stats to know that drinking, students and guns is a bad mix. Its common sense, or do you not see this?

Are students ever going to stop partying? No
Are students ever going to stop drinking? No
Are students ever going to stop doing drugs? No

If students and people in general have to carry guns all the time to protect themselves, sooner or later someone is going to start drinking. Sooner or later someone is likely going to parties. Which means sooner or later there's going to be shootings related to drinking and possible drugs etc. The numbers may be small and may not happen every month, but the fact is that at least a few people are bound to die as a result of everyone carrying guns either by accident or on purpose.

The problem is because accidental shootings only happen in small numbers rather than 32 at a time as in the VT shootings its never going to be reported nationally. Just as car accidents happen everyday they're rarely reported unless its a huge pileup. But for you, it seems out of sight, out of mind is key.

Think about it:

- We know drinking/drugs and driving is a bad combination
- How can drinking/drugs and guns possibly be anything but a bad combination as well??

[Colargo]

In Vermont alone there is no license required to carry a firearm concealed. All you need to have is your FFL and a clean record...and away you go. No special training required...no courses to mandate. How many accidental shootings? How many deaths? How many increases in violent crime?...NONE They have the lowest crime in the Union with a murder rate of about 1.0/100,000...less than us...with about two in five of their adults carrying guns.

You do realize that each State in the US has the right to govern themselves independantly right? Which means that each state has the means and measures to make their own laws in accordance to the Constitution. Hence they will have differing crime rates and differing homicide rates...as well as differing enforcement measures and differing judicial standards.

Lumping them all into one sum assumes that they all are governed Federally like us...they aren't. The states that have the least gun control are the ones driving the stats down...while the ones with the greater gun control are driving the stats up.

Vermont...legally carry a gun anytime anywhere anyhow...1.0/100,000 Homicide rate
Washington DC...No legal carry or ownership of handguns...43/100,000 Homicide rate

Wow.......of all the states you use to support your argument you use Vermont???????

- Vermont with a population of 621,000 had 16 murders in 2004 or a murder rate of 2.6.

- Vermont with a population of 623,000 had 8 murders in 2005 or a murder rate of 1.3

A murder rate decrease by 50% in just one year!!!! INCREDIBLE!!!

Wow stats really proved you right huh?


Here's some stats I found:

Vermont - population 623,000. 1.3/100,000 homicide rate
Toronto/GTA - population 5,555,000. 1.8/100,000 homicide rate in 2004
Montreal/GMA - population 3,600,000 1.7/100,000
Vancouver/GVA - population 2,180,000 2.6/100,000

Ontario - pop. 12,400,000 1.5/100,000 homicide rate in 2004
Quebec - pop. 7,500,000 1.5/100,000
B.C. - pop. 4,200,000 2.7/100,000

How many cities/states in the US of similar size have homicide rates that low, even when compared to the 2.7 of BC? Also gun related deaths represent less than half the homicides in Canada, while they represent like two-thirds in the US.

So how is it that Ontario and Quebec with huge populations of 20 and 12 times larger respectively have only a slightly higher homicide rate than Vermont?

Again I ask you, can you provide me with more stats as to which states have had dramatically decreased in crime and murder when everyone is carring guns?


Vermont...legally carry a gun anytime anywhere anyhow...1.0/100,000 Homicide rate
Washington DC...No legal carry or ownership of handguns...43/100,000 Homicide rate

Virginia is right next to DC...their homicide rate is on par with the national average of about 5-6/100,000

How'd you figure Washington DC to be 43/100,000. According to 2005 stats, DC has a population of 550,000 with 195 murders. That's a homicide rate of 35. But we're talking about DC here which is poor and has plenty of criminals living there. So you have to pick out the one place that's the bottom of the barrel to make your case. How about Wisconsin and Illinois where CCW aren't allowed? They're either just about at or below the national average.


As concealed carry measures have increased in the US, crime has also steadily been dropping...and no increases have been seen except in the gun control states...they fluctuate readily.


Nope...Private gun ownership is heavily restricted in only about 3 Western European Countries.


This just proves my point even further. In 15 western countries, there are a combined total of about 85 million guns between them. So even if they could buy guns, europeans are choosing not to. And surprise surprise, their murder rates are much lower than the US and number killed are a hellava lower than the US.

And without the right to carry a firearm, the EU has already surpassed the US in Violent Crime rates across the board. With the UK leading the pack with three times the violent crime rate of the US, and a handgun epidemic that is seeing no slowdown despite the ban. In fact their crimes with handguns hasnt gone down since 95.

I find it funny you keep saying that the UK is more violent than the US, yet the UK with a population of 60.5 million, there were 765 murders in 2005, or a rate of 1.1

In the US with a population of 300 million, there were 16,100 murders in 2005, or a rate of 5.4.

So yeah, the UK is a pretty violent place, but somehow they still seem to die at a slower rate than in the US. Weird huh? I mean I might get beat up if I'm in the UK, but at least I won't get killed like its much more likely in the US.

Its pretty amusing that you keep picking out stats that support your arguments yet you don't show stats that disprove what you say. And its funny that the stats you pick out aren't even really that good. IE using Vermont as your cornerstone for carrying concealed weapons because in a population of 623,000 the number of murders dropped from 16 to 8 in a year! WOW, an amazing 50% decrease in crime! *slow clap*




And you have that right...but dont assume that I too must cower in a hole and practice the same failed strategy of "Cooperate And Die" Just because you prefer to. ;)

You contradict yourself in full print at about this point with your previous statements.

Basically in your own logic, we must get rid of guns because a deranged lunatic may go on a shooting spree at any time and anyone who would own a gun out of fear of such a lunatic is paranoid. Hence circular logic.

Yet you yourself overlook the fact that majority of those committing homicides already have a violent criminal record...many are gang related...as well a drug turf wars and other drug related occurences.

No matter how you want to spin it, its still 16,000+ murders a year in the US, 10,000+ which are gun related.

How interesting that you keep picking countries that are higher in the US in crime, but fail to mention at all countries that are well below the US. How is it that Canada has 4 million gun owners or 1 in 6 Canadians, yet people murdered by firearms is 5 times less than the US, where there's as many guns as people??

How conveniently you fail to mention that in the whole of the European Union there's not 16,000 murders combined and certainly not 10,000 dying by guns. Doesn't support your pro-gun argument right? So lets forget about that.

How about China, a population of 1.2 billion, yet total number of murders is 20,000. How is it that a country with a population 4 times the US have only 4,000 more murders, or a murder rate of 1.7/100,000, or three times less than the US. Opps, let's forget that too.

How about Japan, or South Korea or much of Southeast Asia? Gun deaths below the US, let's forget about them too.

Or Australia where their murder rate is over three times lower than that of the US. There's gun control there too. Opps another bad example, let's forget that too.

So let's see. Canada, UK, Japan, China and Australia all have gun control and guess what? They're homicide rates are all over three times less that the US. I'm not saying gun control is the complete answer for the US, but it does prove that having more guns is isn't the best answer to increasing the sense of security you have and it doesn't help the US' homicide rates, which are still pretty much the highest when compared to other wealthy countries.

[konfusion666]

looks like Colargo just pwned the whole pro-gun crew :lol:

[stealth]

looks like Colargo just pwned the whole pro-gun crew :lol:

Agreed. One of the best posts I've seen on this topic in a long time.

[SergesPlace]

Professor fired over Va. Tech discussion Mon Apr 23, 8:28 AM ET


BOSTON - An adjunct professor was fired after leading a classroom discussion about the Virginia Tech shootings in which he pointed a marker at some students and said "pow."

The five-minute demonstration at Emmanuel College on Wednesday, two days after a student killed 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus, included a discussion of gun control, whether to respond to violence with violence, and the public's "celebration of victimhood," said the professor, Nicholas Winset.

During the demonstration, Winset pretended to shoot some students. Then one student pretended to shoot Winset to illustrate his point that the gunman might have been stopped had another student or faculty member been armed.

"A classroom is supposed to be a place for academic exploration," Winset, who taught financial accounting, told the Boston Herald.

He said administrators had asked the faculty to engage students on the issue. But on Friday, he got a letter saying he was fired and ordering him to stay off campus.

Winset, 37, argued that the Catholic liberal arts school was stifling free discussion by firing him, and he said the move would have a "chilling effect" on open debate. He posted an 18-minute video on the online site YouTube defending his action.

The college issued a statement saying: "Emmanuel College has clear standards of classroom and campus conduct, and does not in any way condone the use of discriminatory or obscene language."

Student Junny Lee, 19, told The Boston Globe that most students didn't appear to find Winset's demonstration offensive.

[Peckerwood]

These are some of the statements you have used to sum up your argument...all without fact to back up a single one. Each one is found within an assumption without pertinent data or evidence to support their occurence.
there's a good chance
What happens if ?
couldn't the gunman say ?
potential is there
Then what?
it will happen at some point and then what?
So if
Who's to even say
what's to say
You don't need stats
Sooner or later someone is likely
Which means sooner or later there's going to be
but the fact is that at least a few people are bound to
If you handed a paper in to your University Prof loaded with such phrases you would get a huge red X across the paper with it handed back and a score of 0.

I want proof...causation...not suppositional antics.
The fact is experienced drivers with many years of experience still make mistakes on the road. Why is this any different with guns?
Yet the majority of accidents are done by first time drivers, drunks and by people too old to handle the vehicle accutely...hmmm
You make it sound so easy that people will quickly organize and hunt down the gunman and either kill or contain him until police arrive. Yet there's a good chance this won't happen at all. What happens if the gunman kills the first responders on the north side of a large building and those citizens armed with guns come from the south and haven't seen the gunman? When they arrive, couldn't the gunman say he shot the people who were about to go on a shooting rampage?
He would still be held at bay regardless...I also challenge you to provide case history where this type of outlandish scenario above has actually happened. The reason you won't is because gunmen in such a case would find themselves crossangled and outnumbered...thusly outgunned and defeated before they even got the chance to think of such a scenario.
The fact is a that a situation could go either way.
Yet again, you shouldnt have a problem finding case history...right?
I'd rather have police handle the situation than have civilians start shooting so that they can save my ass.
While you are waiting 15-20 minutes(optimal) for cops to arrive, somebody is bashing your head in with a hammer because you wanted to take the "moral highground" that can only be found by cowering under a table. Again...your posts strictly smell of paranoia and fear of your fellow man.
You keep asking me for statistics, but the fact is the potential is there for such things to happen.
Again...you shouldnt let such pesky things like statistics get in your way of digging for the truth. I still have yet to see you bring up case history showing any of your scenarios coming true in over 20 years of CCW history.

Are you telling me everyone is going to be calm, cool and collected when faced with a gunman and have their shots be dead on all the time? Of course not. Which means there's potential for things to go wrong. What happens if innocent civilians are killed by other armed civilians? Then what? Opps sorry about the collateral damage, but we did get the gunman too.
Still a bunch of supposition without pertinent data to follow it...find me case history to support your supposition
I'm not saying everytime there's a situation occurs that innocent people will end up shooting other innocents it will happen at some point and then what? The fact that two innocent people died in a gunfight with a gunman may have saved dozens, MAYBE. But this doesn't change the fact that two innocents died from friendly gunfire that could have been prevented.
In 20 years of practiced CCW reform are you telling me that you can't find one case of friendly fire? Interesting...
That's right, no grenades exploding nearby, no artillery fire no machine guns sweeping the field trying to kill them, yet people have breakdowns everyday. Alot of people are emotional and crack under stress. This is fact. Do I want people like these handling weapons even if they've went through training?
Ahh yes...the proverbial breakdowns. Considering that Police have more stress in their job than anyone else excluding military personnel, it is then only logical in your opinion that they also be disarmed of their guns...because they could break down at any time and go on a rampage.

Again...find me case history of CCW holders breaking down under stress and going on shooting rampages etc. If it is such a common occurence or possibility then there should be numerous case files on the matter.
Weapons training only guarantees that you know how to use a weapon, but there's no test that can determine whether or not under stressful situations if they can perform and take out a killer if he's nearby. So if law abiding citizens or anyone for that matter is capable of experiencing a breakdown, what's to say they won't do so when it counts and they're faced with a gunman who's out to kill?
Case History...get looking
You don't need stats to know that drinking, students and guns is a bad mix. Its common sense, or do you not see this?
If it is common sense them I am sure you can find pertinent case files showing it as a issue with higher accidents rates etc. amoung CCW permit holders
If students and people in general have to carry guns all the time to protect themselves, sooner or later someone is going to start drinking. Sooner or later someone is likely going to parties. Which means sooner or later there's going to be shootings related to drinking and possible drugs etc. The numbers may be small and may not happen every month, but the fact is that at least a few people are bound to die as a result of everyone carrying guns either by accident or on purpose.
If, if, if.

I want case history and compiled data. Otherwise it is mere speculation and thusly not worthy of note. If's and possible's are not hard data.
The problem is because accidental shootings only happen in small numbers rather than 32 at a time as in the VT shootings its never going to be reported nationally. Just as car accidents happen everyday they're rarely reported unless its a huge pileup. But for you, it seems out of sight, out of mind is key.
Wrong...accidental shootings causing injury are reported through hospitals and emergency services...data is compiled and recorded through the FBI, BATFE and Federal Justice Bureau in the US

Nice try though.
Think about it:

- We know drinking/drugs and driving is a bad combination
- How can drinking/drugs and guns possibly be anything but a bad combination as well??
I am not saying that they aren't...I am asking you to provide case history and relevant data compiling the accident ratio with CCW permit holders due to drinking and/or drugs. You still have not providing anything...I am waiting
Vermont
I chose Vermont simply because of the fact that they have no permit requirements at all for concealed carry...all you need is a valid licence to own the gun and no felony record. High percentage of conceal carry...and yet the lowest homicide rate in the Union with it dropping every year...same with violent crime...dropping every year.

The same is said for those States that have a high percentage of CCW issuances...lowering violent crime rates, and lowering homicide rates are the result. The CCW states on average show 1.5% decrease in all crime each year. Compare that to the UK with an ever increasing violent crime rate and increases in gun crimes that have yet to go down.

So how is it that Ontario and Quebec with huge populations of 20 and 12 times larger respectively have only a slightly higher homicide rate than Vermont?
So how is it that Vermont with close to 1/3 carry rate doesnt have a higher violent crime rate or homicide rate? Your assertion is that concealed carry in any respect will increase violence and deaths...yet where are the case files?

So how is it that the UK with a total ban on handguns has an extremely high violent crime rate...you still haven't addressed that one...and don't tell me that it has to do with population concentration...that is BS. Other places that have higher population concentrations have lower and higher crime rates.
Again I ask you, can you provide me with more stats as to which states have had dramatically decreased in crime and murder when everyone is carring guns?
I provided a link to a dload site for a comprehensive study on CCW issuances and relevant crime stats to which you obviously ignored and didn't read.

How'd you figure Washington DC to be 43/100,000. According to 2005 stats, DC has a population of 550,000 with 195 murders. That's a homicide rate of 35. But we're talking about DC here which is poor and has plenty of criminals living there. So you have to pick out the one place that's the bottom of the barrel to make your case.
They are 19% above the national average for per capita income...they are above the poverty rate against the national average as well. They also bust the national averages for Women owned(15% higher) and Black owned(500% higher) companies.

I was using 2003 data...apologies...yet I still await your compilative reasons for why the homicide rate is 7 times higher than the national average with a total ban on handguns.

[Peckerwood]

How about Wisconsin and Illinois where CCW aren't allowed? They're either just about at or below the national average.
Without a single drop in gun related crimes or homicides despite this fact...only CCW states have seen marked drops in crime rates due to releveant increases in CCW issuances.
This just proves my point even further. In 15 western countries, there are a combined total of about 85 million guns between them. So even if they could buy guns, europeans are choosing not to. And surprise surprise, their murder rates are much lower than the US and number killed are a hellava lower than the US.
And their respective violent crime rates are all still on the rise. The US has seen drops nationally despite the numbers of gun ownership rising. Switzerland on par has close to 15 times more guns than the UK had before the bans...add the fact that each household has a selective fire assault rifle plus ammo...yet despite this, their homicide rate is lower than Britain's. Finland also has an extremely high gun ownership rate, yet their homicide rate is almost on par with the UK and with a violent crime rate that is a fraction of the UK's.

Guns are effectively outlawed in Russia. Private handgun ownership is totally prohibited. A permit is required to purchase a long gun. All guns are registered with authorities. When transporting a long gun, it must be disassembled. Long guns may only be used for self-defense when the gun owner is on his own property. By the way, Russia's murder rate is 30.6 / 100,000

The primary point to be made is that gun bans actually do nothing to decrease crime...instead they have the opposing effect. Criminals go unabated and will perpetrate their acts of violence completely uncontested. The majority of murders in all western countries are done by people who already have violent criminal records(67%) and almost all of which already have a criminal record of some type(95%)...but of course the ones that always pay for this are the law abiding citizens who must give up their arms due to politricksters and their feel good laws or face jail time just so that the prevailing governments can appear to be fighting crime, when in fact they are simply disarming potential victims, who by the way are neither inclined to commit crimes nor do they have a proclivity towards doing so.
I find it funny you keep saying that the UK is more violent than the US, yet the UK with a population of 60.5 million, there were 765 murders in 2005, or a rate of 1.1

In the US with a population of 300 million, there were 16,100 murders in 2005, or a rate of 5.4.
Funny?

Funny is the way you ignore the fact that the highest murder rates are in the States with the lowest percentiles of issued CCW permits or those with outright gun bans...Funny is how you try to present homicide as being the only type of violent crime in your relation between nations.

UK Violent crime rate
1995---440 / 100,000
2005---2013 / 100,000

US Violent crime rate
1995---1700 / 100,000
2005---780 / 100,000

No trends there at all....nooooooo...I see nothing....blinders on the eyes :rolleyes:

For the same time periods, murder rates in the US have been steadily decreasing...all despite the fact that citizens have been given the right in many places to carry firearms for their personal protection with licenses. Murder rates in the US were close to 10 / 100,000 only 10 years ago...and since then they have dropped by half.

More guns...less crime...hmmmm...where did I put my blinders again?

Its pretty amusing that you keep picking out stats that support your arguments yet you don't show stats that disprove what you say. And its funny that the stats you pick out aren't even really that good. IE using Vermont as your cornerstone for carrying concealed weapons because in a population of 623,000 the number of murders dropped from 16 to 8 in a year! WOW, an amazing 50% decrease in crime! *slow clap*
Can you provide a single state that has seen marked increases in violent crime and homicides with the advent of CCW permits? Have you even done the research?

The link I provided to the paper by John R. Lott, Jr. and William M. Landes showed an average annual drop of 1.5% in violent crime and homicides in CCW states as well as data proving their assertions

No matter how you want to spin it, its still 16,000+ murders a year in the US, 10,000+ which are gun related
Spin it? You mean the way you try to show how those who CCW would become violent murders simply because they are armed...despite the fact that you are unable to provide any evidence that this is happening in places that already have CCW present?

Or perhaps you would prefer to "spin it" in such a fashion as to completely ignore the fact that the ones perpetrating homicides with firearms happen to have violent criminal histories as well as prior criminal records on the order of 95% of the totals.

Or maybe you would like to "spin it" by presenting singular year or dual year trends that show only the difference between country's respective crime rates but not the prevelant trends...like how the US has seen drops in all crimes, and homicides despite more guns being introduced over the last 15 years.

Or perhaps you would choose to ignore the fact that CCW states have seen an average drop of all crimes on the order of 1.5% annually despite more guns being introduced and the right to Conceal Carry those guns...all so you can "spin it"
How interesting that you keep picking countries that are higher in the US in crime, but fail to mention at all countries that are well below the US. How is it that Canada has 4 million gun owners or 1 in 6 Canadians, yet people murdered by firearms is 5 times less than the US, where there's as many guns as people??
Despite the fact that many european countries are seeing increases in violent crime despite the gun controls present.

I am also interested in where you get your numbers on Canadian gun owner stats. ;)

How conveniently you fail to mention that in the whole of the European Union there's not 16,000 murders combined and certainly not 10,000 dying by guns. Doesn't support your pro-gun argument right? So lets forget about that.
See above

How about China, a population of 1.2 billion, yet total number of murders is 20,000. How is it that a country with a population 4 times the US have only 4,000 more murders, or a murder rate of 1.7/100,000, or three times less than the US
Try to ignore the fact that their execution rate is 90% of the world's total executions. Despite the fact that it is a Police state...let's ignore that as well. Despite the fact that China has consistent human rights violations across the board. Just ignore that in your supposition ;)

How about Japan, or South Korea or much of Southeast Asia? Gun deaths below the US, let's forget about them too.
And their respective Violent crime rates? Higher

So let's see. Canada, UK, Japan, China and Australia all have gun control and guess what? They're homicide rates are all over three times less that the US.
And yet all of their violent crime rates are higher than the US even though they were much lower before the bans and before the excess gun control. Show me where their gun crimes and violent crimes have been going down due to gun control. Canada, UK, Aussie have all seen increases in gun crime and violent crime since their respective bans. Aussie alone saw a 120% increase in gun crime in the first 18 months after their gun bans and it hasnt gone down. The UK has a violent crime rate 3 times higher than the US with many people being critically hospitalised with greivous bodily harm due to such "beatings". The majority of those affected are now regular citizens whereas beforehand it was mostly criminals being affected by the violence. Their level of gun crimes is still on the rise and has not dropped in 11 years

Cherry picking China and Japan as examples is a faulty basis for arguement because they cannot be equated socially. Japan is by far one of the most different countries socially and culturally to any of the western nations, and China, in case you havent noticed, is a Communist Police State that executes five times more people annually than relevant homicides.

Yeah...Pwned...lol :rolleyes:

[ZenOps]

Violent crime is actually higher in rural than in urban areas. Pickton is an example, although he picked up his victims in the city, he transported them out to the farm to kill them.

Still a lot of farmers carrying shotguns out there... Still a lot of anger towards Amish. Native reserves are very high compared to cities.

[ZenOps]

I sympathize a bit with those who want the right to bear arms.

It levels the playing field - especially for those individuals in the minority, either racially, socially, economically - etc.. There is no quicker way to achieve a certain amount of equality - when everyone brings a gun to the table. But then again, there were a *lot* more deaths back in the wild west days, when killing a human was a lesser judical sentence than stealing cattle (You can take a mans life - but you can't take a mans way of life)

Would Pickton had been stopped earlier if every hooker had a firearm? Probably. But that in itself creates problems that I don't think we are willing to handle or even acknowledge right about now.

Problem is that there is always one guy who want to use his gun (or whatever weapon) to achieve superiority not equality. And with ever increasing military ability, the amount of death one man can do is well over the 1:1000 ratio now, heading easily into the 1:10,000 or higher ratio as time goes on. Disgruntled hooker bombing a country club and killing a few hundred people? It could happen in a militarized society.

A main argument against: The entire US economic system is definitely not based on "levelling the playing field" equality - it is afterall free market capitalism. At the very least the economic system has trademarks and patents "a registry and submission system" for those who wish to use it - by those who own it. Perhaps the strongest case for gun registry and backchecks at the very least to mimic the economic system.

[ZenOps]

Also:

By its very nature a gun will do nothing against a bomb. A lot of these mentally disturbed people never see the day of light until they've already killed a few hundred people in the quarter of a second it takes for a bomb to explode.

Bombs will do nothing against bombs, as bombs are indiscriminate weapons of destruction. You can't save a school by throwing a bomb at a bomber.

How can you shoot a target when you cannot identify the target in a crowd, or worse yet - never see the target at all? Its almost like air superiority - what good is firing blindly in the air if you can't see anything but blue sky?

Oppositely, if you miltarize the public, what good is firing a gun at a target, when everyone now has a gun and is a target. The sky is now full of potential enemies, which one do you shoot at?

A gun will do somehing against a lone gunman, but I would tend to think that is a scenario that will decrease as time goes on.

[Colargo]

These are some of the statements you have used to sum up your argument...all without fact to back up a single one. Each one is found within an assumption without pertinent data or evidence to support their occurence.

If you handed a paper in to your University Prof loaded with such phrases you would get a huge red X across the paper with it handed back and a score of 0.

We're talking about PROBABILITIES here. Its common sense that if you get drunk or do drugs etc, that if you do certain things you could get hurt or killed.

You could tonight drink 10 beers before you drive home. Does this automatically mean you're going to crash your car and injure or kill yourself? Of course not. You could drive all over the road and barely see signs and go straight through red lights and get home fine. But the fact that you could have been killed while driving so drunk is much, much higher than if you drove sober right? Or are you going to dispute this too? :lol:

That's exactly what I'm talking about when it comes to guns.


He would still be held at bay regardless...I also challenge you to provide case history where this type of outlandish scenario above has actually happened. The reason you won't is because gunmen in such a case would find themselves crossangled and outnumbered...thusly outgunned and defeated before they even got the chance to think of such a scenario.

I'm not saying the scenario I described WILL happen. I'm saying its a possibility. In fact, there's so many ways that any given situation can unfold, how can you possibly say that having everyone carrying a gun is the best solution for every situation? How can you guarantee that civilians killing other civilians won't happen? The fact is you can't, because chances are that it will happen sooner or later.

You want proof?

How is it that the military with all their visual identification aids, GPS and up to date intelligence and info about friendly troop positions can still have blue on blue casualties? That's right, the miltary with all this info at their disposal can still kill their own, because maybe a unit moved somewhere that it wasn't suppose to be or an attacking unit saw a target and didn't positively identify it as an enemy before it opened fire.

And you want me to believe that armed civilians without all this info at their disposal will come out of a dangerous situation with the most favourable outcome every single time? IE gunman dead and zero innocent casualties? PLEASE. You have to be a fool to believe this.


While you are waiting 15-20 minutes(optimal) for cops to arrive, somebody is bashing your head in with a hammer because you wanted to take the "moral highground" that can only be found by cowering under a table. Again...your posts strictly smell of paranoia and fear of your fellow man.

Funny, I've lived in Toronto all my life and I've never had this paranoia that you speak of that someone is going to kill me if I don't carry a gun to protect myself. Have I ever been in situations where I've felt I should be cautious and be abit more on guard? Yes.

But have I ever walked out the door of my house thinking about how I might get murdered by someone today? No. Never.


Ahh yes...the proverbial breakdowns. Considering that Police have more stress in their job than anyone else excluding military personnel, it is then only logical in your opinion that they also be disarmed of their guns...because they could break down at any time and go on a rampage.

Again...find me case history of CCW holders breaking down under stress and going on shooting rampages etc. If it is such a common occurence or possibility then there should be numerous case files on the matter.

Where did I say police brokedown left, right and centre? How about NOWHERE. I was talking about civilians.
Wrong...accidental shootings causing injury are reported through hospitals and emergency services...data is compiled and recorded through the FBI, BATFE and Federal Justice Bureau in the US

I'm not talking about whether shootings are reported or not. I'm talking about whether all these daily shootings are reported on CNN and the answer is NO. 27+ Americans died yesterday by guns. 27+ Americans today will die by the gun. And 27+ Americans will die tomorrow by guns. Did I hear about any of these deaths on CNN? No. Because they all died across the country in ones or twos. But they're all recorded of course, which is why you get 10,000+ gun murders in the US every year.

Think about it:

- We know drinking/drugs and driving is a bad combination
- How can drinking/drugs and guns possibly be anything but a bad combination as well??

I am not saying that they aren't...I am asking you to provide case history and relevant data compiling the accident ratio with CCW permit holders due to drinking and/or drugs. You still have not providing anything...I am waiting

Are you freaking serious? :lol: I mean really, there are decades of established statistics that show that while driving drunk or on drugs etc, your chances of getting into an accident rises. Is it really that much of a leap that students who will undoubtably drink and party and possibly do drugs that their chances of having accidents with guns will increase while they're drunk or high?

Its common sense. But you choose to ignore this because of lack of 'hard evidence'. If its proven that drunk students with cars is bad, how hard is it to believe that drunk students with guns is bad as well?




I chose Vermont simply because of the fact that they have no permit requirements at all for concealed carry...all you need is a valid licence to own the gun and no felony record. High percentage of conceal carry...and yet the lowest homicide rate in the Union with it dropping every year...same with violent crime...dropping every year.

The same is said for those States that have a high percentage of CCW issuances...lowering violent crime rates, and lowering homicide rates are the result. The CCW states on average show 1.5% decrease in all crime each year. Compare that to the UK with an ever increasing violent crime rate and increases in gun crimes that have yet to go down.

So how is it that Vermont with close to 1/3 carry rate doesnt have a higher violent crime rate or homicide rate? Your assertion is that concealed carry in any respect will increase violence and deaths...yet where are the case files?


Can you choose an example that has a bigger sampling size than just 600,000 people? Like cmon. I gave you the two largest population centres in Canada in Ontario and Quebec. 12 and 7.5 million people respectively in two provinces that you can draw some solid conclusions that without guns, people aren't getting killed by the thousands because they can't protect themselves. And in return you give a state that is practically the smallest of all 50 as your rebuttal?

Is that how strong your argument is? So strong that you can't list states with similar population numbers that have homicide rates anywhere near that low?

The Toronto/GTA area is over 5.5 million people with a homicide rate of 1.8/100,000 in 2004. Can you find me some US cities similar in size to compare it with? Or is this not possible because they don't exist?

So how is it that the UK with a total ban on handguns has an extremely high violent crime rate...you still haven't addressed that one...and don't tell me that it has to do with population concentration...that is BS. Other places that have higher population concentrations have lower and higher crime rates.

I provided a link to a dload site for a comprehensive study on CCW issuances and relevant crime stats to which you obviously ignored and didn't read.

Can you pull out the stats that are relevent to your argument, since I did for you for my arguments.

[Colargo]

Without a single drop in gun related crimes or homicides despite this fact...only CCW states have seen marked drops in crime rates due to releveant increases in CCW issuances.

And their respective violent crime rates are all still on the rise. The US has seen drops nationally despite the numbers of gun ownership rising. Switzerland on par has close to 15 times more guns than the UK had before the bans...add the fact that each household has a selective fire assault rifle plus ammo...yet despite this, their homicide rate is lower than Britain's. Finland also has an extremely high gun ownership rate, yet their homicide rate is almost on par with the UK and with a violent crime rate that is a fraction of the UK's.

You keep asking me for stats. Let's see you provide some. Show me stats of all the states that allow CCW that have declined dramatically. Or can you not do this?


The primary point to be made is that gun bans actually do nothing to decrease crime...instead they have the opposing effect. Criminals go unabated and will perpetrate their acts of violence completely uncontested. The majority of murders in all western countries are done by people who already have violent criminal records(67%) and almost all of which already have a criminal record of some type(95%)...but of course the ones that always pay for this are the law abiding citizens who must give up their arms due to politricksters and their feel good laws or face jail time just so that the prevailing governments can appear to be fighting crime, when in fact they are simply disarming potential victims, who by the way are neither inclined to commit crimes nor do they have a proclivity towards doing so.


You keep telling me that law abiding citizens carry guns is safe right?

Think about it, every criminal at some point in their lives were law abiding citizens yet somewhere along the way they became bad and they began committing crimes. Many of these crimes were committed with guns.

Case in point. Seung-Hui Cho. Even though he was not quite right in the head, he was a law abiding citizen right up until he killed 32 people. There were maybe warning signs that he could do something bad, but he didn't do much that was illegal before the killings did he? He was a dark person that led a relatively normal mundane life, who even bought his guns legally. Yet overnight he became a criminal by going on a shooting spree.

So that's how easy it is to go from being a law abiding citizen to becoming a criminal. 300 million Americans in the US. You've got to think there are more Seung-Hui Chos out there that are currently leading normal lives at the moment, but someday may turn into criminals. But even if they're not all going to be mass murders, alot of these current 'law abiding citizens' will turn into criminals at some point in time. And yet you want more guns to protect yourself against previously law abiding citizens?

Funny is the way you ignore the fact that the highest murder rates are in the States with the lowest percentiles of issued CCW permits or those with outright gun bans...Funny is how you try to present homicide as being the only type of violent crime in your relation between nations.

UK Violent crime rate
1995---440 / 100,000
2005---2013 / 100,000

US Violent crime rate
1995---1700 / 100,000
2005---780 / 100,000


For the same time periods, murder rates in the US have been steadily decreasing...all despite the fact that citizens have been given the right in many places to carry firearms for their personal protection with licenses. Murder rates in the US were close to 10 / 100,000 only 10 years ago...and since then they have dropped by half.

You keep asking me, now I'm asking you. Show me the stats.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/06/12/crime.rate/index.html

Murders in the United States jumped 4.8 percent last year, and overall violent crime was up 2.5 percent for the year, marking the largest annual increase in crime in the United States since 1991, according to figures released Monday by the FBI.


Can you provide a single state that has seen marked increases in violent crime and homicides with the advent of CCW permits? Have you even done the research?

The link I provided to the paper by John R. Lott, Jr. and William M. Landes showed an average annual drop of 1.5% in violent crime and homicides in CCW states as well as data proving their assertions.

Can you please point this out to me in whichever article you saw it?


Spin it? You mean the way you try to show how those who CCW would become violent murders simply because they are armed...despite the fact that you are unable to provide any evidence that this is happening in places that already have CCW present?


Or perhaps you would prefer to "spin it" in such a fashion as to completely ignore the fact that the ones perpetrating homicides with firearms happen to have violent criminal histories as well as prior criminal records on the order of 95% of the totals.



Then show me the stats Mr. 'hard data'. The same person who keeps drumming me about show stats can't follow his own words and do the same?


Or maybe you would like to "spin it" by presenting singular year or dual year trends that show only the difference between country's respective crime rates but not the prevelant trends...like how the US has seen drops in all crimes, and homicides despite more guns being introduced over the last 15 years.

The number of homicides hasn't dropped in almost a decade now. Since 1998 they've been hovering at about 16,000.

Or perhaps you would choose to ignore the fact that CCW states have seen an average drop of all crimes on the order of 1.5% annually despite more guns being introduced and the right to Conceal Carry those guns...all so you can "spin it"

Again Mr. hard data, show me the stats.

[Colargo]

Despite the fact that many european countries are seeing increases in violent crime despite the gun controls present.

I am also interested in where you get your numbers on Canadian gun owner stats. ;)

http://www.garrybreitkreuz.com/publications/GunsinCanada.htm

Look at the bottom. I took the high range. If you want to take the lowest, there would only be 2.4 million gun owners in Canada owning 7.2 million guns.

So with the low range estimate, its more like 1 in 13 Canadians owning guns and surprise surprise, we have low murder rates unlike the US.


http://shaan.typepad.com/shaanou/2005/12/estonia_is_top_.html

While Italy was seventh among the 25 EU member states, its 2004 murder rate was still lower than the EU average of 2.8 murders per 100,0000 inhabitants, the report said .

But it noted that the European average rose sharply last year after ten new members joined the block .

So the EU murder rate even with 10 additional countries joining it in 2004 had a murder rate of 2.8, even though many of countries that joined recently aren't as wealthy.

So even at 25 countries with the additions of high murder rate countries like Estonia, Lithuania and Latvia that pull the murder rate for the EU upwards, the murder rate is still less that the US.

That's a combined EU population now of at least 460 million people and yet the murder rate is still half of what it is in the US. One and a half times the population and still half the number of murders. Opps let's just forget this one for your sake ok? :cheesygri

Try to ignore the fact that their execution rate is 90% of the world's total executions. Despite the fact that it is a Police state...let's ignore that as well. Despite the fact that China has consistent human rights violations across the board. Just ignore that in your supposition ;)

Isn't there executions in the US? Does that deter criminals from committing murders or other crimes? No? Why should that deter criminals in China then? Does China's 'oppressive government' stop millions of Chinese people from committing crimes from the worst to making bootleg copies by the billions? Obviously a 'police state' isn't controlling its citizens as much or as well as you think they are. Chinese are still committing crimes, just not killing as often per capita as Americans are despite being having 4 times the populaton.



And yet all of their violent crime rates are higher than the US even though they were much lower before the bans and before the excess gun control. Show me where their gun crimes and violent crimes have been going down due to gun control. Canada, UK, Aussie have all seen increases in gun crime and violent crime since their respective bans. Aussie alone saw a 120% increase in gun crime in the first 18 months after their gun bans and it hasnt gone down. The UK has a violent crime rate 3 times higher than the US with many people being critically hospitalised with greivous bodily harm due to such "beatings". The majority of those affected are now regular citizens whereas beforehand it was mostly criminals being affected by the violence. Their level of gun crimes is still on the rise and has not dropped in 11 years.

Canada's violent crime rates have increased????? Uhh no.

http://www.fradical.com/Violent_crime_statistics_Canada.htm

I see a peak in the early 90s where violent crimes were at its highest and then a decline and stabilization since then. Opps, let's forget about this one too ok? :cheesygri

Cherry picking China and Japan as examples is a faulty basis for arguement because they cannot be equated socially. Japan is by far one of the most different countries socially and culturally to any of the western nations, and China, in case you havent noticed, is a Communist Police State that executes five times more people annually than relevant homicides.

Yeah...Pwned...lol :rolleyes:

So because Japan is different from the US, you can't compare the two countries? Please, how lame is it that you would ignore Japan because of its cultural differences with western coutnries. Go ahead and ignore that Japan chose to implement gun control laws that are perhaps the most stringent of any democratic nation. And as a result there's few homicides and hardly any gun murders. Yeah go ahead and ignore one of the most peaceful countries on earth because they don't fit your pro-gun argument at all.

As for China, as I've said since when have executions proved to be a good deterrent from people committing crimes? Was it a good in the US? Is it good anywhere in the world? So stop using executions and a communist government as excuses for the cold hard fact that a population 4 times the size of the US is still committing murders at less than three times the rate.

And tell me again what excuse you have up your sleeve for the 460 million europeans in western and central europe that form the EU that has a murder rate of half the US?


This is a thread about the VT shootings and 32 dead people. Your argument is that by having students armed and pretty much having everyone armed with guns in America is a good thing and that it would prevent such mass murders in the future.

Looking back at your previous posts, I see that you bring up guns preventing violent crimes alot. What does this have to do with preventing mass killings or lowering the murder rate? How about nothing?

How about the fact that you know that the US has the highest murder rate and the highest gun murder rate among wealthy nations in the world. This is an undeniable fact. I proved it you to in my previous post and I proved to you again in this post. Do you bring up violent crime rates because you want to deflect attention from the murder rate?

The issue here is why America has so many murders per capita than so many other countries in the world. You're saying more people carrying guns will help prevent murders and mass shootings. I'm saying it won't. I've shown you plenty of stats of countries around the world that have relatively few guns and they're all doing much better at not killing each other than Americans are despite being armed to the teeth.

So far in terms of stats, what have you given me in return? Vermont, DC, the UK.........and uhhhh........Vermont, DC, the UK. If you have any other stats then just post them. This is at least my second time now that I've asked that you post stats where states that have CCW reform have had dramatic decreases in murders. I'm no talking about dinky states like Vermont, I'm talking about states similar in size to Ontario or Quebec.

If you look at Vermont, what happens if for the next several years the number of murders went up from 8 to 16. That's a 50% increase right there. Would you consider that a serious murder problem happening in Vermont then? So how about a sample size in the millions then? Or is that not possible because larger sample sizes go against your arguments?

Really I think in the US, there's too many guns already. Its so screwed up that all the bad guys have guns that now you want to have all the good guys armed just to equalize things. Even if this comes to pass, would you really feel safer? If someone really wants to kill you, you can't really believe you can defend yourself can you? Who's to say a guy who really wants to kill you won't just wait until you take out the trash and pop you with a sniper rifle or a drive by? Or maybe just wait until you're shopping somewhere with your back turned and shoot you in the head? Did your gun save you then? Sure the gunman might die too, but you're already dead. So really, when will you feel safe then?

Seriously I think if you lived a few months in Toronto, I'd be willing to bet that your views on guns would change. Something could happen to you, but the probabilities are so small that you don't think about it much and you enjoy life. Try living someplace in Canada and see if you don't like things better when its mostly gunfree.

[DaVibe]

Lil' Flip - Time After Time (Virginia Tech Tribute) (http://www.allhiphop.com/player/default.asp?id=lil%20flip-time%20after%20time%20virginia%20tech%20tribute.mp 3&track=Time%20After%20Time%20(Virginia%20Tech%20Tri bute)&artist=Lil%20Flip)

[perplexed_one]

Did anyone hear about this? sickening, really and what the author of the game said is even more despicable.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4063174a1899.html

on a positive note, enrollment to VT is strong. ppl arent going to be deterred by psychos.

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NSZmZ2Jl bDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NzEzNTYwNyZ5cmlyeTdmNzE3Zjd2cWVlRU V5eTQ=

[hagbard]

The best way to prevent such events is that we all insist on our rights to pack heat.

[Emancipated]

The best way to prevent such events is that we all insist on our rights to pack heat.


Are Canadians becoming more and more like their American counterpart? We got along just fine without guns for more than a century, no need to change that.

Are we grooming ourselves to be America Junior? I hope not.

[stevethewheel]

The best way to prevent such events is that we all insist on our rights to pack heat.

Are you being serious or sarcastic?

[hagbard]

Are Canadians becoming more and more like their American counterpart? We got along just fine without guns for more than a century, no need to change that.

Are we grooming ourselves to be America Junior? I hope not.

My grandparents all owned guns. BTW, you don't need to have a gun to be protected by virtue of living in a society were people are permitted to. Things certainty haven't gotten safer since we've imposed more gun controls.

Are you being serious or sarcastic?

Guess.

[YnD]

The best way to prevent such events is that we all insist on our rights to pack heat.

Or you can

http://youtube.com/watch?v=k0FI82DOuxE

[Sonbuster]

Did anyone hear about this? sickening, really and what the author of the game said is even more despicable.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4063174a1899.html

on a positive note, enrollment to VT is strong. ppl arent going to be deterred by psychos.

http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NSZmZ2Jl bDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NzEzNTYwNyZ5cmlyeTdmNzE3Zjd2cWVlRU V5eTQ=

is this the game every one's talking about?
http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/378086

what a shame