Non Fault Car Write Off- Know Your Rights And Get More Money!!!

[flamenko]

Im writing this to assist others in understanding the negotiation process should someone total your car and its not your fault. Ive been involved in this process twice and have assisted 3 others to save what amounts to well over 35000 now.

Ill sub title important points with a summary as I go along.

1. You dont need to have collision to claim

For some reason, many think there car is a writeoff because they dont have collision. Understand this...as long as your not entirely at fault, you are still entitled to a return on your vehicle, collision or not. An example? My sons car just got totalled by a nice guy who bumped him from behind. My son never had collision coverage. You would be surprised at the amount he got at the end of the negotiation process with our Ins company.

2. Understand who the 'Total Loss Department' is.

They are specially trained people that are only there to pay out for total loss. Their job is simple and you need to understand this... they are there to save their company money, not give it out. You will be alot better equipped now when they give you that first call stating they are there for you first and that they feel terrible that someone did this to you. An example?? My companies first offer was very low; this after not calling me for a week and a half and then looking at my file for 10 minutes. They apparently thought I didnt know much about this process. Read on to see how I made out.

3. You have the right to request their vehicle evaluation of your car

Every company that has to settle a total loss claim has a specific method of coming to an amount. Most use something called an Autodex Report. This report is from a 'partial and biased' company that works directly for the insurance company. Understand first that you have a right to ask for a copy of this report. Secondly, understand that this report is created to benefit the Insurance company first. How so? On my report I discovered, first and foremost, that they used papers such as Buy and Sell and Triads for their sample cars. You need to understand that these papers are usually used by people who are not really looking for big things for their return. So....find your own similar examples and know what your cars worth.

In my report, there were 13 sample vehicles used to form the price base for my car. I telephoned all of them as their numbers are there. You would be surprised what I found out in these phone calls. Lets just say, examine the report carefully. Next, know all the fine points of your car. You get extra money for things such as new tires, new paint, anything recently installed, condition of all items etc. You need to fight for this for the most part An example?? They were giving me 50 bucks for the car stereo which was worth 1900 originally. I fought for much more and got it. Another??? They actually have a calculation for low mileage vehicles so ask what it is if your vehicle is low mileage.

4. The first offer is just that...AN OFFER

Why do people just say ok and settle for what they offer? You need to understand that their first offer is always a low ball; remember they are there to save the company money. Dont accept it. Arm yourself with knowledge. Go to autotrader, local papers, etc and find as many cars for sale similar to yours as possible. Get their average and then you will have an indication of what you should get. Start with that. Keep these as they will ask you to send them to them.

5. Be Polite but stand by your beliefs.

You will get frustrated when they wont budge and feel you have reached their limit so hold your own. Understand that this is their job whether we like it or not. Negotiate as far as you can and then, if your not happy (which you wont be if your smart) ask to move to the next step...this is when they will tell you to get an appraisal. You dont have to according to Sec 120 of the Ins Act. Explain to them that they are welcome to go to the appraisal stage from their end but you dont wish to pay money for something not your fault, especially when you have done your homework. If they dont want to get an appraisal from their end (which they wont because it costs them money), explain...in print...that your interested in exploring the next stage which is arbitration

6. Arbitration and Court Concerns

Once you bring up arbitration, they will immediately explain how you can bring it to court. You need to understand that this, again, is a tactic to get you to settle. Your right is arbitration which is their responsibility to initiate...not court. They dont like this because, similar to other companies, rulings through arbitration or court are public knowledge and can be used to the negative of the company. So, if your polite, you will know one thing...they will be just about as close to the top that they can offer if they agree to the arbitration stage. In my first total loss several years ago, we actually scheduled and agreed on an arbitrator... They settled with me a week before our hearing...funny eh???

7. Amount Agreed Upon/Want the vehicle?

Ok so...now you have agreed on a price with the insurance company and they are congratulating on being such an excellent negotiator and street wise consumer. What to do with the car? Believe it or not, you have first crack to buy it back. If you know a good body repairmen, this is where you may want to contact them. In most cases, the insurance company will give the car to you for an extremely cheap buy back, usually for the taxes they will be reimbursing you (gst) plus 5% (as it was in my case). Ask your repair guy what the best course is here...and make sure they dont brand it (label it as scrap with MTO) because thats a huge expense to unbrand.

8. Rental vehicles

If there is an insurance expert, Ide appreciate clarification but Ill explain my circumstance. You are entitled to a rental from the day of your collision until the first offer is made to you; this is what my ins person told me anyway. I disagreed and asked for their guidelines in print for this policy to which I never received them but got the car for 2 additional weeks anyway. Remember...politely stand up for yourself.

To close..... I hope this helps some out. I wont tell you the exact amounts but will say that the difference from the first offer to our final agreement was a 182% increase...yes it was tons...and I had a rental for just over 3 weeks.

[royal]

i will ask the mods to put thi up as an article.. well done .. thanks.

[Menthol]

Involved twice and helped 3 others hmmmm. Must be a bad driver with lots of experience :cheesygri
Helpful article, good for future reference.

[flamenko]

Two writeoffs in 26 years of driving....the first my wife was t-boned and the second my son was rear ended... My records clean and, in fact, if you check my previous traffic related posts you just might guess what I do (lol)

Bad driver...no I just dont think so. Educated maybe and wanting NOT to see the ins companies make money of those not at fault.

[malaco0219]

Excellent post, very informative. =]

[thephenom]

I'm a little confused on the buyback part.

So your car is determined to be "written off", I mean damage should be severe to a point it'll never to repaired back to tip-top shape, right? If so, why would you want to buy it back and pay the money to fix it up? :?:

I'm also confused at point #1, for not having the collision coverage, doesn't that ALWAYS mean if you're not at fault, insurance will pay for repairs anyway? (I kind of fail to understand that point)

[flamenko]

Technically the no fault clause is a misunderstood clause by most. To you, it really means you cannot sue other parties unless very strict conditions are presented. To your insurance company, it means they will pay your repairs or total loss rather than the other company when it comes down to money. For example... In a normal ins system, if someone rear ended you, the other company would be on the hook for the repaire (I believe). Under this system, even if the other party is at fault, your ins company will pay he repairs or total loss. This actually saves the companies money believe it or not and does not affect your coverage as you are not at fault.

To be clear, if you get a car and do NOT buy collision coverage, you will not get money back or repairs if you are determined to be at fault. If its not your fault however, your insurance company still repairs or reimburses you for your loss as you werent at fault.

With regards to write off and buy back, the insurance company will only write your vehicle off if its money saving for them. Only if there is structural damage (frame etc) will they brand it as a total loss. It is entirely possible, depending on mileage, condition and year of vehicle that you may benefit from the purchase of your cost after they have written it off and paid you for it....simply because the buyback cost of the damaged vehicle may be so cheap.

Its technically mathematics so lets look at it that way. Your car is written off and the damage repair is 10000 as estimated. They determine your car to be worth about 10000 so they offer you 4000, because most people would just say ok and accept it. They just saved themselves money. So, lets say you bargain your way up to an agreed return of 10000 plus gst = 10700. Now, depending how good of a negotiator you are you may be able to buy the car back (which they will ask you if you want to) for the tax plus 5-10% or 12-1700 bucks. Lets say you buy the car back for 1200 bucks and get an estimate for repair of 7000 from a reasonable shop (not a designated dealership such as ford/GM) So... 10700-8200= 2500 profit to you after your car is repaired and on the road fixed again. You just did good. Even if you buy it back at the high end of gst/10% you just made a profit of 1800bucks.

Be careful though. This is only a good system if your car is not branded by the ins company. If it is, its a complicated process having it repaired and then inspected and revin'd as a repaired and now unbranded vehicle.

Hope this helps

PS... I understand that what I am explaining is correct; I have the meat of everything as it comes through my own investigating and experience. I think, for us all, additional assistance from an insurance professional would be a welcome inclusion in this thread just as confirmation or 'fine tuning' of what is correct and proper.

[B0000rt]

I'm a little confused on the buyback part.

So your car is determined to be "written off", I mean damage should be severe to a point it'll never to repaired back to tip-top shape, right? If so, why would you want to buy it back and pay the money to fix it up? :?:

I'm also confused at point #1, for not having the collision coverage, doesn't that ALWAYS mean if you're not at fault, insurance will pay for repairs anyway? (I kind of fail to understand that point)

Because estimated repairs are at dealer prices. Not always is a write-off more than the value of the car. Say I had a 1992 Caddy that was rear ended. No frame damage or anything, but new parts would be hard to come by and if they did, they'd be expensive! You could buy back the car and throw parts from the junkyard and extend it's life! Right?

[thephenom]

Because estimated repairs are at dealer prices. Not always is a write-off more than the value of the car. Say I had a 1992 Caddy that was rear ended. No frame damage or anything, but new parts would be hard to come by and if they did, they'd be expensive! You could buy back the car and throw parts from the junkyard and extend it's life! Right?
Ah ok....but the last time I got quotes directly from repair shop, and not the dealers. :?:

So really, the buyback is only worth it if you don't mind spending the time to fix it up, AND if the car is worth fixing up. Even if you make that $2500 (as stated example before), it's going to take some time to fix up the car and extra cost for rental.

[flamenko]

Thats where you are the smart consumer. Know where to take your car in the first place (dealership for your specific model car) and then realize what you can do for repair after the fact.

If you consider the reality of this, you can still get the replacement parts cheaper from a junkyard than they can even thought their quotes will be for non oem and possibly even rebuilt/refurbished parts.

FURTHER.... and yes. It will take additional time for you to get the car repaired (although anyone can get any car fixed in 7 days or less really) and a few days rental if you need it. Its all a calculated process that you must consider when you see the damage to your car. Sometimes you can do great and sometimes (as in a car that will be branded by the ins coy) its just better not to consider this.

[Ryus]

bookmarked

[TenzoR]

good info!

[addicted2it]

GREAT POST....thnx a bunch for the efforts you took to enlighten so many of us...

[jerryhung]

I suppose At-Fault accidents are somewhat similiar?

For example, the write-off car value . I got $14500 1st offer from StateFarm for my 99 Accord V6, researched a bit on AutoTrader, and ended up getting $15500 (I did ask for more, as we just put on new tires, and they said no. I had a full tank of gas too)

[flamenko]

If you would have asked for the Autodex Report from Statefarm, you could have walked through each thing with the, to which tires are one of the increases they can add.

I found this very helpful because you can walk through each thing they grade your car on and agree or disagree. The negotiation process is such that they will throw in a few extras for you but not all...

and At Fault accidents are similar if you have collision coverage and your accident report does not have the box 'alcohol related' tick'd off.

Its our lack of knowledge that costs us in the end for the most part; for example did you know... Driver A rear ends driver B. Driver b is not at fault. neither has any collision coverage. Driver B is still entitled to repair/replacement for their damages because they are not at fault.

[josipm]

[QUOTE= My sons car just got totalled by a nice guy who bumped him from behind. My son never had collision coverage. You would be surprised at the amount he got at the end of the negotiation process with our Ins company.

[/QUOTE]

So basically, what you are saying is your son only had liability and no collision coverage at all.
Can you give us more details about the type of car he was driving and details on the insurance? like the deductible, liability he was paying..etc..

[rosebud]

bump

[coriolis]

Awesome information as usual, thanks!

[RCDEMORAL]

Hey! Great Thread!

Anyone have experience with a total loss, at fault, no other involved, no charges/etc, w/ full replacement cost policy on 6 month old car?

My Main question is: they don't consider extended warranties insurable, but I believe that it is a cost of the car especially if I want the -same- car. How do I go about negotiating with them?

[voyager6868]

Thanks also for all the information. I was all prepared to respond to a low-ball offer on my no-fault write off, but their initial offer was basically right on my starting price that I was going to ask for :)

Plus, they sold the car back to me for about 7% of the offered price. Overall, I was quite pleased. Plus they gave me a week to return the rental car and get my car back from the repair shop.

[hamant]

great read, they should make this a sticky at the top of the forum

[blue mountain raider]

thnx OP, but can u tell us the specs of your vehicle that had the offer increased by 182%?

[Ducky]

to confirm what the OP is saying...

EVERYTHING written on your insurance policy only applies to AT FAULT and PARTIALLY AT FAULT accidents...

if you are 100% NOT AT FAULT, you don't need to dish out a single penny...it does not matter what your comprehension/collision deductible is...doesn't matter whether you have it or not...your insurance will pay for all repairs to your car, car rental, or total loss, etc...

[Topher]

1. I wish I had this info about a year ago. I totaled my wife's 1992 Subaru with very low mileage. (Other driver was cited by police, and found at fault). I still ended up getting way more than I thought I would, but I guess I could have even done better.

2. I hope I don't ever need this info, but I'm glad I read it.

3. Thanks a bunch for posting this!

[Billa-786]

Thanks also for all the information. I was all prepared to respond to a low-ball offer on my no-fault write off, but their initial offer was basically right on my starting price that I was going to ask for :)

Plus, they sold the car back to me for about 7% of the offered price. Overall, I was quite pleased. Plus they gave me a week to return the rental car and get my car back from the repair shop.

Has anyone else gone down this road? When you get you car back do you need to get it recertified/emission tested to get it road worthy again? And can you negotiate the price down further than 7%?

[thephenom]

I still think this thread should be stickied!

[fantom]

in addition to the original post, I'd like to add that buying used/aftermarket parts for your car (in case you decide to buy it back and fix it yourself or have a car shop fix it for you) off of a few websites mentioned here already on RFD at like 1/5th of what you'd usually pay at dealerships will save you even more money.

so, for my own repairs (front end of a SAAB - some guy in a pickup truck backed into me, totally smashed the front), the repair shop estimate was about $4,000 in damages and insurance company paid for it, of course (no fault accident on my part)... but if I bought the replacement parts myself off of the few websites I have bookmarked around here, the total cost for all the parts would've came out to about $500, if that. And my mechanic (not the one I went with for these repairs, as they charged the hell out of my insurance company) would've probably charged me another $500-1000 for repairs, thus saving me about $2,500-3,000 in the process... if I went thru the buyback option, etc, etc.

So keep that in mind too ;)

[Billa-786]

I'd have bought my car back, but my car got hit while at the collision repair center by a snow plow:mad:

Anyway I also learnt, rather than have your car sent to the Insurance company's recommended shop, you can have it sent to a shop of your choice and work out a deal with the owner, so that you can get some cash on the amount he gets for the car to stay there.

[fantom]

I'd have bought my car back, but my car got hit while at the collision repair center by a snow plow:mad:

Anyway I also learnt, rather than have your car sent to the Insurance company's recommended shop, you can have it sent to a shop of your choice and work out a deal with the owner, so that you can get some cash on the amount he gets for the car to stay there.

Yep.

And company's "recommended" shops NEVER work in your favor and always work in company's favor... meaning, they'll fix your car, all right, but will either miss some parts, or install aftermarket/used parts while charging in full as if they paid for new parts.

I've been through that enough times until I ran into someone who would actually fix my car per my own requirements... now I know better too.

[dougmania]

does this only apply to ontario?
How about in BC?

[Jucius Maximus]

Five Star Thread.

[gostinger]

Success for me thanks

[flamenko]

Glad this thread has helped some...

[Nukey]

Great info! Thanks!

I do hope I never need it, though.

[sunset_orange]

to confirm what the OP is saying...

EVERYTHING written on your insurance policy only applies to AT FAULT and PARTIALLY AT FAULT accidents...

if you are 100% NOT AT FAULT, you don't need to dish out a single penny...it does not matter what your comprehension/collision deductible is...doesn't matter whether you have it or not...your insurance will pay for all repairs to your car, car rental, or total loss, etc...

how about this scenario, I park my car in a mall parking lot, come out and see some idiot back into my car and makes a huge dent on the door then runs away like a rat. The auto shop quotes me 1000 to fix it...my comprehension/collision deductible is 500, does that mean I don't have to pay a penny?

[iluvmikeharris]

how about this scenario, I park my car in a mall parking lot, come out and see some idiot back into my car and makes a huge dent on the door then runs away like a rat. The auto shop quotes me 1000 to fix it...my comprehension/collision deductible is 500, does that mean I don't have to pay a penny?

I believe you need to know who hit otherwise, otherwise they can't verify it in order to waive your deductible.

[ah_long]

how about this scenario, I park my car in a mall parking lot, come out and see some idiot back into my car and makes a huge dent on the door then runs away like a rat. The auto shop quotes me 1000 to fix it...my comprehension/collision deductible is 500, does that mean I don't have to pay a penny?

I believe anything on the Mall Parking lot is 50/50 fault..

[realdeal99]

I recently had a single car accident on the highway. Is this considered no fault accident or partial fault or what? The insurance will be looking at the car in the next couple days to see if it is a write-off or not. There was a lot of structural damage in the front and rear so I would imagine it is a write-off.

Also, my car is at a body shop that was taken to by the tow truck company. These guys claimed to be able to somehow waive the deductible of $1000, even though insurance said I would have to pay.

Next, TD Meloche Monnex said I did not have coverage for a rental vehicle. They said it was an option I needed to select on the policy. Is this true? I thought rentals were always part of the full coverage policy?

Finally, would the appraisal (if I get to this step) still be paid for by the insurance if it is a single car accident?

Any other helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for this amazing thread!!

[TripleHelix]

I recently had a single car accident on the highway. Is this considered no fault accident or partial fault or what? The insurance will be looking at the car in the next couple days to see if it is a write-off or not. There was a lot of structural damage in the front and rear so I would imagine it is a write-off.

Also, my car is at a body shop that was taken to by the tow truck company. These guys claimed to be able to somehow waive the deductible of $1000, even though insurance said I would have to pay.

Next, TD Meloche Monnex said I did not have coverage for a rental vehicle. They said it was an option I needed to select on the policy. Is this true? I thought rentals were always part of the full coverage policy?

Finally, would the appraisal (if I get to this step) still be paid for by the insurance if it is a single car accident?

Any other helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for this amazing thread!!


What happened for you to get into an accident on your own? Unless it was caused by bad weather, I would tend to think you are 100% at fault or at the very least 50/50.

Check your insurance papers. I have never heard of rentals being covered under any full coverage policy.

[realdeal99]

I was cutoff and had to swerve so that I didn't hit them. When I swerved the car spun out on the highway and I hit the guardrail.

I did get the Accident Forgiveness option at Monnex, therefore if its an at Fault Accident my insurance premiums shouldn't go up. Anybody have any experience with this?

[TripleHelix]

I was cutoff and had to swerve so that I didn't hit them. When I swerved the car spun out on the highway and I hit the guardrail.

I did get the Accident Forgiveness option at Monnex, therefore if its an at Fault Accident my insurance premiums shouldn't go up. Anybody have any experience with this?

I'm guessing there was no police report done?

Not sure what one has to do in these situations... If you would have a police report stating the cut-off, then of course it would be no fault but..

[realdeal99]

Yes the police was called and I filed a report with them explaining exactly what happened. No charges were laid against me also.

[amplified]

does this only apply to ontario?
How about in BC?

This applies to BC too. I was in a not at fault accident where my car was written off. ICBC gave me a lowball offer to start. I told them to come back to me with a better offer. 3 months later after they called numerous times to settle at their original offer they gave in and gave me a better more reasonable offer that I was willing to settle at. My car was old, but still driveable so I guess I was lucky in that I was able to wait it out.

[T-Bone]

Here's one: Due to heavy winds and a rusted out base plate, a city owned streetlight fell on our new car that we bought 6 months ago. I submitted a written claim with the City and I expect them to reply with a date for an inspection soon.

It's still perfectly driveable, I assume the car will probably be a write-off unless the whole roof can be replaced. I'll be kinda pissed if they offer market value of the car just before the accident. Depereciation is a killer for the first year! Why should I be out money to buy a new car???

In a perfect world, they'd offer MSRP on a new replacement.

Any tips for an almost new car that is written off?

Will follow up later with an update...

[Billa-786]

I believe anything on the Mall Parking lot is 50/50 fault..

This is incorrect. There are rules even for parking lots. A 50/50 situation would be something like where both cars backing up hit each other.

[kuhdlie]

how long did you guys wait before the insurance company give you an settlement offer and/or receive the money? it's been nearly 2 weeks for me, i haven't heard anything and they're paying like $70/day for the rental car, seems a little ridiculous to me since the car is only worth around $10k.

[COSMIC5]

Insurance companies use a fault chart to determine the %'ge of fault on these...see the chart

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900668_e.htm

I believe anything on the Mall Parking lot is 50/50 fault..

[COSMIC5]

If you have identified the third party, your vehicle would be covered under the direct compensation portion of the policy, which usually is a 0 deductible....unidentified, you will have to pay the full deductible under the collision portion and will need to provide a police report in both situations.

I believe you need to know who hit otherwise, otherwise they can't verify it in order to waive your deductible.

[COSMIC5]

Transportation replacement coverage is optional, not a mandatory coverage. Sounds like you will have an at fault accident on your record...even if you were 10% at fault, you will be charged on insurance as if it were 100% your fault. How could a single vehicle accident be partial fault?

I recently had a single car accident on the highway. Is this considered no fault accident or partial fault or what? The insurance will be looking at the car in the next couple days to see if it is a write-off or not. There was a lot of structural damage in the front and rear so I would imagine it is a write-off.

Also, my car is at a body shop that was taken to by the tow truck company. These guys claimed to be able to somehow waive the deductible of $1000, even though insurance said I would have to pay.

Next, TD Meloche Monnex said I did not have coverage for a rental vehicle. They said it was an option I needed to select on the policy. Is this true? I thought rentals were always part of the full coverage policy?

Finally, would the appraisal (if I get to this step) still be paid for by the insurance if it is a single car accident?

Any other helpful advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for this amazing thread!!

[COSMIC5]

Correct, but if you have a 2nd at fault loss, you will see a rate increase...also if you go to switch insurance - a new company will take this at fault loss and rate accordingly.

I was cutoff and had to swerve so that I didn't hit them. When I swerved the car spun out on the highway and I hit the guardrail.I did get the Accident Forgiveness option at Monnex, therefore if its an at Fault Accident my insurance premiums shouldn't go up. Anybody have any experience with this?

[webworm]

Had a great vacation renting a 4 bedroom oceanfront condo in myrtle beach last week until I was involved in accident with my 95 plymouth grand voyageur.

Details: 21 yr old with mexican passport ran a stop sign right in front of me. I swerved to try and avoid him but had no chance since he pulled out right in front of me.

- he has no drivers licence
- does not own the vehicle and another owner listed on police report with policy number
- the insurance company of the vehicle he was trying has so far been unable to make contact with the owner of vehicle or the 21yr old driving
- police have him at fault on the police report and I don't know if he was charged by police
- I had to rent a Hertz vehicle to get family back to Canada on a one way rental and got permission at border to cross with police report and pictures of my van since CAN citizen not allowed to cross border with US plated vehicle unless it is an emergency

The damage to my van is front passenger fender and wheel that was bent in the accident.

I got a message from my insurance company and of course they want to deem it a total loss due to 14 yr old vehicle. It was running great and in good shape and the part that bothers me most is I spent about $3000 over past year on the vehicle. I know if I was living in the US I think an American citizen would be hiring an Attorney on this one.

Any thoughts of my rights here?

[COSMIC5]

Hope you and your family are ok! Your insurance broker is there for guidance give him/her a call and find out what to do next or what the status of your claim is and what you are intitled to...Im sure the adjuster that has already called you will let you know the next steps..

in the interim, shop around and see what values are out there for like kind and quality of your van ....

Had a great vacation renting a 4 bedroom oceanfront condo in myrtle beach last week until I was involved in accident with my 95 plymouth grand voyageur.Details: 21 yr old with mexican passport ran a stop sign right in front of me. I swerved to try and avoid him but had no chance since he pulled out right in front of me.
- he has no drivers licence
- does not own the vehicle and another owner listed on police report with policy number
- the insurance company of the vehicle he was trying has so far been unable to make contact with the owner of vehicle or the 21yr old driving
- police have him at fault on the police report and I don't know if he was charged by police
- I had to rent a Hertz vehicle to get family back to Canada on a one way rental and got permission at border to cross with police report and pictures of my van since CAN citizen not allowed to cross border with US plated vehicle unless it is an emergency

The damage to my van is front passenger fender and wheel that was bent in the accident.

I got a message from my insurance company and of course they want to deem it a total loss due to 14 yr old vehicle. It was running great and in good shape and the part that bothers me most is I spent about $3000 over past year on the vehicle. I know if I was living in the US I think an American citizen would be hiring an Attorney on this one.

Any thoughts of my rights here?

[T-Bone]

Here's one: Due to heavy winds and a rusted out base plate, a city owned streetlight fell on our new car that we bought 6 months ago. I submitted a written claim with the City and I expect them to reply with a date for an inspection soon.

It's still perfectly driveable, I assume the car will probably be a write-off unless the whole roof can be replaced. I'll be kinda pissed if they offer market value of the car just before the accident. Depereciation is a killer for the first year! Why should I be out money to buy a new car???

In a perfect world, they'd offer MSRP on a new replacement.

Any tips for an almost new car that is written off?

Will follow up later with an update...

Sooo... a $9000 fix and alomst a month on the shop is what it will take to repair.

The city will assume laibility. That means that I'll still go through my insurance, but I'll just have my deductable waived and I'll expense the city for the rental.

I'm still pissed that I had a perfect (no damage) new car, now I have to live with a car that has $9000 in damage repairs on it now.

Meanwhile, I'm stuck with all the head-aches of finding a good shop, rental car, etc.

[Toolatecrew]

There are several inaccuracies (or at the least overly sweeping generalities) in this post. It is possible that SOME are true for SOME insurance companies. I work in the industry. My company (who will remain nameless to avoid any repercussions to me) is a provider of Total Loss valuations to nearly every insurer in Canada. I work with no less than 7 Major insurers on a regular basis. We do millions of Valuations on total losses per year and I see 100s of them from the perspective of the insurance companies. While its fine to give advice that saved you money being involved in 2 or even 5 total loss negotiations doesn't make one an expert.

Point 1 regarding No Fault loss depends on provincial rules. I will not get involved in that discussion.
2. Understand who the 'Total Loss Department'- This is inaccurate. The vast majority of Insurance companies have the individual Adjuster or Appraiser try to settle the Total loss. Most do NOT have a Total Loss settling dept.
Out of the 7 companies I deal with only a tiny fraction go by the old school "Lowball em" first approach. I can state for fact that several Insurers quote the number from the 3rd party valuation report they receive as there first offer. That doesn't mean that the number cannot change but several companies have policies against negotiating tactics. The number is the number and its the adjusters job to sell the number .Most insurance companies want to give you the RIGHT number. Not less but certainly not more than what your vehicle is worth. Keeping a file open costs $100s of dollars a day in storage, rental and admin costs. If you think that an insurance company (who wants to make money) is going to cost themselves $500 by keeping a file open for 5 days while they negotiate in order to pay $100 less on the Total you dodn't understand how things work. They want these closed asap.

3. You have the right to request their vehicle evaluation of your car
This is true. You should in fact request a copy before you start any negotiation. You wouldn't buy a car without seeing the sticker price and options first. The rest is filled with untruths. 3rd party Total Loss valuations are not designed to benefit one party or another. That's why they are "unbiased". I can tell you for a fact that the "old school" lowball minority constantly complain our values are TOO HIGH. The methodology is based on statistical study of MILLIONS of Ads and estimates every year. Its designed to remove bias. If you don't believe me people have clalanged our values in court and they have not once and I mean NEAVER been overturned by a court.

Most people do not understand the Valuation report. I can tell the author doesn't because I know for a fact that the company he mentions doesn't not only use Buy and Sell etc. They use every available ad source out there. I know because he says they used 13 vehicles and I know for fact that they use minimum 20 or a different method that would not use 13. 13 vehicles are NEVER ever used as a sample size EVER.

Its important to get the valuation report so you can understand the method. Many companies do their own value using 3 dealer quotes or ad prices. These I agree can be very inaccurate and can be easily challenged. If its by a reputable 3rd party company its important to go through the reports and make sure that it is accurate. if you had a sunroof di they mark it on. If you had new tires did they record it. The report is only as good as the info it is based on. Garbage in Garbage out. If you find a mistake ask to have it re run before you start negotiation.

Oh on unbiased 3rd party reports the mileage calculation is clearly indicated.

4The first offer is just that...AN OFFER
This is true. the rest is garbage. Very few insurers use lowball tactics. (not to say none do) but if you have the report in front of you then the offer should be no lower than the number on the report. I can tell you for fact that insurers have more trouble with claims where they lowball first. They want a quick clean settlement. Unless you sit at the desk of an insurance adjuster with 20 pending files on their desk you won't realize that the last thing they want is to spend hours on the phone arguing over $. Can you sometime get more? Yes Just like when you buy a car even if a person's price is "firm" they will usually bend a tiny bit if it gets it done quickly. If you say I need an extra $50 they well might bend. But I see people all the time trying for 1000s because they think they are being low balled but the reality is most people deal with this ONCE in a lifetime. They don't know what their car is worth. A company that does it millions of times DOES know.

Averaging Autotrader ads is only slightly useful. If you sell your car do YOU ask more for it than you will take? OF COURSE> DO dealers who advertise mark up their used cars by several 1000 $s so they can negotiate . YES When you get a check from the insurance and go to buy a replacement car from Autotrader are you going to PAY what they ask in the Ad ...NO!

Get the report. Do your research to see if its in the ballpark but a valuation is a lot more than an average of inflated dealer asking prices.

5Be Polite but stand by your beliefs

Once again the sentiment is right but the details are crap. Your belief is not important. Review the report. If the report is accurate and the methodology is accurate the fact that you believe your car is worth more doesn't have standing in a court of law. As I said before. If you get a valuation from our company you are welcome to contest in court. No one has ever won. Read your policy. Companies are NOT required to give indefinite rental coverage while you argue. IF they offer you 15K and you think its worth 16 and there are 5 reasonable replacement vehicles out there for 14 500 its up to you if you want to prolong the process but your odds are not good.

Arbitration and Court Concerns
Rules differ by province so I won't speak to arbitration. If you want to go to court and they agree you can be pretty sure you will lose. The number of people who ever win a court case on a valuation is tiny and I mean tiny. As I said. No one has ever overturned one of ours in Canada EVER!

Amount Agreed Upon/Want the vehicle?
Rules differ by province but most when a vehicle is determined to be a total loss is branded. Its either salvage repairable or parts only.

Making a vehicle a total loss is mostly a numbers game. Does it cost more to fix it or to make it a total loss. The exception is safety. Rules are very clear that things like a deformity to the passenger compartment means its a total and non repairable. The rules are very clear.

If your car is not parts only they insurance company gets possession of it and can sell the salvage to recoup their costs. Average salvage returns are pretty low (less than 20%) BUT it all depends on the car. They do not have any obligation to give you first crack at the car. NONE. They OWN IT. They can send it to auction or do whatever they want. In the case of older vehicles they often will give you a shot at it because the return will not be any different than if they sent it to auction and it saves them some trouble and expense.

You can't UNBRAND a parts only car. If its deemed not fit to go back on the road that's the end of it. If you do keep the car and have it fixed expect it to have a branded title should you try to resell it down the road.

Rental vehicles

Read your policy. Insurance policies vary but rental $s are limited. If you have a Malibu which is a mid sized car the rate for a midsized might be $45 a day X 14 days or
630 dollars. You can stretch this by taking an Aveo for 25 a day which would let you have a car for 25 days vs 14. Ask up front what the policy is. If there is a delay that is their fault they can and will give an extension. IF you decide you want to prolong the negotiation they are under no obligation to extend rental coverage. I find in general they will give the customer benefit of a doubt on rental extensions for customer service purposes.


In summary:
If your vehicle is a total loss make sure you get a copy of the valuation report before you do any negotiation. its your right. Make sure its accurate. if its not make them get it accurate before you discuss any numbers. Do your own research on advertised prices but make sure you understand that those are asking prices they are not gospel. Remember that the insurer is LIKELy using a sample of 20 or more cars. If you pick the 3 highest out of 6 you see you are not being objective and you will lose. Its your right to try to get as much as you can. but their obligation is to provide you fair market value. Anything more than that is gravy.

You have a right to question everything. You should question things. I'm simply suggesting that you go into the process with the right knowledge and not depend on the ASSUMPTIONS of someone who doesn't know the facts.

[Toolatecrew]

Sooo... a $9000 fix and alomst a month on the shop is what it will take to repair.

The city will assume laibility. That means that I'll still go through my insurance, but I'll just have my deductable waived and I'll expense the city for the rental.

I'm still pissed that I had a perfect (no damage) new car, now I have to live with a car that has $9000 in damage repairs on it now.

Meanwhile, I'm stuck with all the head-aches of finding a good shop, rental car, etc.


My sympathies that your car got damaged through no fault of your own.

Depending on where you live you could try to sue for Diminished value but your chances of sucess are not high.

[flamenko]

Its always nice to have someone with less than 10 posts come and discredit a thread that has received more thank you's both in the thread and through pm's than can be counted.. I don't need to stand up for the thread as it has been stood up for time and time again.

Insurance companies use too many tricks and tools ensure the best of their company. I have quoted the 'fraudulent' valuations that I have received but would also point out how the company elected to get a valuation of a sl model rather than the GT model which I owned. When brought to their attention, they just said that there wasn't that much of a difference in any case.

I might suggest you have shown your colours right from the outset when you stated that insurance companies don't lowball on the first offer, they use fair and independent valuations.... ummm insurance employee definite but one who doesn't like the true colour of the industry getting out without a doubt. Personal vested interest??? Just rip off those last seven letters in your profile name and you are dead on.

Im kind of in a mood so let me show how you, as an evaluator, are trying to misrepresent things right off. At the beginning of your statement regarding 'total loss' you explain how not settling costs the insurance company money in storage, admin fees etc. You failed to mention how the insurance industry has thrown this back into the insured parties hands however. Insurance Act fine print only a short time ago successfully limited your time to settle and find a car to two weeks at which time you were on your own but now its a bit different. Once an offer is made, there is as little as 48 hours for one to settle. This little trick allows the insurance company to rush a bad offer to you and then,if you disagree, they can cut you off the rental and throw things such as storage back into the final return you will get. In other words, they will deduct storage from your final claim. In addition to this, they covered another loophole by finding a way to get you to settle on an amount, all the while believing the claim is still open and you can still fight their final offer, which you by the way have just been talked into accepting.

So in the end.....the insurance company is really working for who??? IMHO they have prayed long enough on misinformation and undercutting the people who trust them in their time of need.

As a valuator in the end, I can see how this article would offend you. It lumps you right in there with the company itself....then again you really are another 'tool' (that word again) of the insurance company and your purpose, believe it or not, is simply to make the company money through low initial valuations... They would never use your service if you didn't do well for them. Don't fool yourself.

[Ctrl-Z]

The sample size my insurance company is using for replacement vehicles seems to be just 3 private sales. One of those is a lower trim level and the other 2 have no trim level details. All are much higher mileage. They also show 2 dealer vehicles with much higher prices but no descriptions at all. Should I be concerned about an inadequate sample? Vehicle is a rather rare AWD Dodge Grand Caravan.

Based on the on-line used vehicle valuations I've found: Kelly Blue Book Value (U.S. pricing) for suggested retail price and private party value and VMR Canadian Used Car Prices, mine is being significantly under-valued. We're still at the initial offer stage but it's fairly close to the estimated repair cost so that might complicates things too. I don't really want the vehicle repaired as I intended to sell it soon anyway.

[kuhdlie]

my insurance company(one of the biggest), did almost exactly the same thing as the thread starter described, first bullshhyt, then lowball offer and after i sent them a stack of counter evidence, they raised their offer almost 200%.