How much over invoice should you expect to pay?

[ullyeus]

So I want to pick up a new vehicle tomorrow, there is only about a $1000 difference between the invoice and msrp, it's about an 18,000 vehicle.

How much do you think I would expect to bargain him down? I am thinking of just getting him to toss in a bikerack and some oil changes and stuff, maybe a few hundred dollars off.

[Tomy]

ive heard 1000 is pretty good already

get them to throw in accessories like floor mats, free oil changes, and any extended warranties...

and remember to take ur sweet ass time looking at EVERYTHING (all the paper work), remember if they promise something and don't put it on the contract, it'll haunt u later (learned it the hard way)

u r at a dealership, mind as well enjoy the process of purchasing the car.

[BartBandy]

Impossible to tell without knowing which vehicle you're looking at. A new, hot-selling model will get full MSRP. A Corolla (at the end of it's cycle) will not.

ive heard 1000 is pretty good already

What?

[rv2843]

Supply and Demand, + timing.

If you want to buy a hot selling car, no saleperson is going to sell you without making some money. However, if you buy an American car, salesman might be willing to sell below MRSP.

[eelfliw]

Unfortunately, your method of bargaining doesn't entice the salesman to take too much off.

The wording of the post seems to indicate that you'll deal with that salesman/dealership and no one else. So, whatever he throws in, he'll throw in for anyone else just for the asking. Because he knows he has your business already.

To get better prices, you have to tell the salesman that you're looking for several different types of cars at several different dealerships. These cars are all the same to you but who ever has the best price gets your business. Let him sweat. Let him run back to the business manager and let him work hard for your business. Because if he doesn't, you'll go elsewhere.

Cars are commodities. You can buy it from dealership. Tell him to separate his dealership from the rest.

[airodus]

check www.carcostcanada.com to get the true dealer cost. it will cost you some money. but it is well worth it. often dealers receive holdbacks, rebates and other incentives which can allow them to sell a car for well below invoice.

once you get the true cost, then you can decide how much money you would like the dealer to make. i recommend at least $500 or around 2-3% on top of the true cost.

[MrDisco]

How much do you think I would expect to bargain him down? I am thinking of just getting him to toss in a bikerack and some oil changes and stuff, maybe a few hundred dollars off.

buy an APA quote and you'll know right away what is a fair offer.

[Monsieurmaggot]

Over invoice? Are you kidding me?

Unless the car is a hot item (like the Mazda3, or Prius) you should never pay over invoice.

There are manufacturer to dealer incentives as well as accessory incentives to consider. Trying to get a dealer to tell you about them is another matter.

I just bought 2007 Subaru for $2000 UNDER INVOICE.

APA and Carcost are essentially fleet buying processes. In many cases you can do better yourself. The 'net is full of information.

An oil change costs a dealer about $7 plus a couple of bucks for labour. Huyndai offered me lifetime oil changes provided it was included as part of a regularly scheduled maintenance visit. Sounds good until you realize their shop rate is much higher than most private shops. They actually make money on your free oil change! Since they can't force you to get your maintenance done at their shop, I have heard of instances where they deny future free changes if regular maintenance isn't done at the dealership.

[ullyeus]

Unfortunately, your method of bargaining doesn't entice the salesman to take too much off.

The wording of the post seems to indicate that you'll deal with that salesman/dealership and no one else. So, whatever he throws in, he'll throw in for anyone else just for the asking. Because he knows he has your business already.

To get better prices, you have to tell the salesman that you're looking for several different types of cars at several different dealerships. These cars are all the same to you but who ever has the best price gets your business. Let him sweat. Let him run back to the business manager and let him work hard for your business. Because if he doesn't, you'll go elsewhere.

Cars are commodities. You can buy it from dealership. Tell him to separate his dealership from the rest.

You were able to determine my method of bargaining by my two or three sentences? The fact that I am prepared and know how much a car costs is a negative?

[ullyeus]

check www.carcostcanada.com to get the true dealer cost. it will cost you some money. but it is well worth it. often dealers receive holdbacks, rebates and other incentives which can allow them to sell a car for well below invoice.

once you get the true cost, then you can decide how much money you would like the dealer to make. i recommend at least $500 or around 2-3% on top of the true cost.

I got the true cost...that's the reason I posted this...thought I made that clear.

[mannyb]

Over invoice? Are you kidding me?

Unless the car is a hot item (like the Mazda3, or Prius) you should never pay over invoice.

There are manufacturer to dealer incentives as well as accessory incentives to consider. Trying to get a dealer to tell you about them is another matter.

I just bought 2007 Subaru for $2000 UNDER INVOICE.

APA and Carcost are essentially fleet buying processes. In many cases you can do better yourself. The 'net is full of information.

An oil change costs a dealer about $7 plus a couple of bucks for labour. Huyndai offered me lifetime oil changes provided it was included as part of a regularly scheduled maintenance visit. Sounds good until you realize their shop rate is much higher than most private shops. They actually make money on your free oil change! Since they can't force you to get your maintenance done at their shop, I have heard of instances where they deny future free changes if regular maintenance isn't done at the dealership.Which model did you get?

[ullyeus]

Over invoice? Are you kidding me?

Unless the car is a hot item (like the Mazda3, or Prius) you should never pay over invoice.

There are manufacturer to dealer incentives as well as accessory incentives to consider. Trying to get a dealer to tell you about them is another matter.

I just bought 2007 Subaru for $2000 UNDER INVOICE.

APA and Carcost are essentially fleet buying processes. In many cases you can do better yourself. The 'net is full of information.

An oil change costs a dealer about $7 plus a couple of bucks for labour. Huyndai offered me lifetime oil changes provided it was included as part of a regularly scheduled maintenance visit. Sounds good until you realize their shop rate is much higher than most private shops. They actually make money on your free oil change! Since they can't force you to get your maintenance done at their shop, I have heard of instances where they deny future free changes if regular maintenance isn't done at the dealership.

I think it's very common to pay over invoice...I don't see many people on this forum or others paying less...but good to know.

The hyundai oil change thing is also interesting as I was considering an accent early on.

[Madrid2k]

Over invoice? Are you kidding me?

Unless the car is a hot item (like the Mazda3, or Prius) you should never pay over invoice.

There are manufacturer to dealer incentives as well as accessory incentives to consider. Trying to get a dealer to tell you about them is another matter.

I just bought 2007 Subaru for $2000 UNDER INVOICE..



I think you're confusing the invoice cost with the MSRP. They're two different things. Invoice is what the dealer pays for the vehicle. MSRP - Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is the market price that the manufacturer sets as a benchmark for dealerships.

Paying below invoice cost is NOT the norm.

A significant business expense for a new car dealer is the interest costs on financing vehicle inventory. However, if a dealer were to consistently sell cars at a $2000 loss. They would be losing hundreds of thousands in a just few months time. That's definitely not a sustainable business formula.

When I bought my 2005 Honda Pilot EXL RES, I paid almost $7000 below MSRP. However, my purchase price was still $300 over invoice cost. I don't think that even covered the administrative, acquisition and carrying costs of the vehicle. But, at least, the dealership wasn't taking a bath.

Moving forward, one should never pay MSRP. That's for people who only want to stop by their local dealership and don't want to put forth the time and effort to save money.

True, one has less leverage in trying to negotiate down a hot selling car.

However, I find that if you are firm, knowledgeable and persistent when dealing, you should be able to knock down the price from MSRP by several hundred dollars, no matter how well a car may be selling.

Even when the new Honda Civic was launched last year, I was still able to negotiate $1000 below MSRP for a friend.

Here's some food for thought:

- the more expensive the car, the higher the mark-up - more room for negotiation.
- the higher the trim level, the higher the mark-up - more room for negotiation.
- don't expect to negotiate thousands of dollars off of MSRP on a bare bones model of an entry level car
- fall and winter is a good time to buy as there are usually better dealer incentives to clear out current year inventory
- I do find that at the end of the month, dealerships are more conducive to negotiating


Good luck.

[airodus]

you can definately pay below invoice cost on some vehicles. it is more common with american cars, last year models, or models that are due for a revision

for example, in 2002 when the Mazda 626 was being discontinued, i was able to negotiate a fully loaded 626, with an MSRP of 29k down to 21k. invoice pricing was 27k.

read this site for the in depth explanations of true dealer costs and other great car buying tips. www.carbuyingtips.com

[eliteblaze]

mazda I expect some dealer incentives.. their MSRP/Invoice prices are so close!

[eelfliw]

You were able to determine my method of bargaining by my two or three sentences? The fact that I am prepared and know how much a car costs is a negative?

Knowing the invoice price is not necessarily a negative. But trusting that the invoice price as the price the dealership paid for the car can mislead you into overpaying.

The whole "invoice price" scheme is blown out of proportion. Of course, car dealerships know that too. In fact, I suspect they're the ones who invented this whole "dealer invoice price" thing as a marketing gimmick.

There's no guarantee the car dealerships paid invoice price to purchase the car. Just like customers asking dealerships for discounts off of MSRP, car dealerships also ask car makers for discount off of invoice. The invoice dealers show you may not be the final invoice they paid.

On top of that, car dealerships also get rebates from manufacturers and these rebates don't always show up on the invoices. It works just like MIRs.

Bottom line, the "dealer invoice" amount is yet another car sales trick. It makes the customers feel good about the price they've paid. Don't even bother with invoice price. Just go and negotiate the best deal you can.

[BartBandy]

I think you're confusing the invoice cost with the MSRP. They're two different things. Invoice is what the dealer pays for the vehicle. MSRP - Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is the market price that the manufacturer sets as a benchmark for dealerships.

Paying below invoice cost is NOT the norm.

I agree. Models with rebates of $500-$1000 or more can be bought below invoice, but I generally think of the rebate as a separate incentive.


- the more expensive the car, the higher the mark-up - more room for negotiation.
- the higher the trim level, the higher the mark-up - more room for negotiation.
- don't expect to negotiate thousands of dollars off of MSRP on a bare bones model of an entry level car
- fall and winter is a good time to buy as there are usually better dealer incentives to clear out current year inventory
- I do find that at the end of the month, dealerships are more conducive to negotiating

All good points. All I would add is that the % markup across all trims of a particular model are generally the same. I know that the markdown to MSRP for the 06 TSX is 8%. That is, take the MSRP, multiply by 0.92, and you get the invoice cost for all models. I think 8% is a pretty good ballpark number for Honda, so it should be close for other models, but that number changes from manufacturer to manufacturer.

[Madrid2k]

you can definately pay below invoice cost on some vehicles. it is more common with american cars, last year models, or models that are due for a revision

for example, in 2002 when the Mazda 626 was being discontinued, i was able to negotiate a fully loaded 626, with an MSRP of 29k down to 21k. invoice pricing was 27k.

read this site for the in depth explanations of true dealer costs and other great car buying tips. www.carbuyingtips.com


Definitely, you can buy cars below invoice. My point was that it is NOT the norm.

If you walk into a dealership with that attitude from the get go, "I wanna buy a car, and I wont' pay more than than invoice!" - they won't take you seriously.

However, if you do your research first, learn as much as you can about the vehicle, and find out which models are slow sellers and are being heavily rebated, you should be able to walk away with a killer of a deal.

BTW, great deal on your 626. You must have got a large rebate from Mazda Canada.

[airodus]

Definitely, you can buy cars below invoice. My point was that it is NOT the norm.

If you walk into a dealership with that attitude from the get go, "I wanna buy a car, and I wont' pay more than than invoice!" - they won't take you seriously.

However, if you do your research first, learn as much as you can about the vehicle, and find out which models are slow sellers and are being heavily rebated, you should be able to walk away with a killer of a deal.

BTW, great deal on your 626. You must have got a large rebate from Mazda Canada.

i negotiated for a friend actually, but yes it was a smokin' deal. your right about the attitude, cause some cars can't go below invoice. that's why i think it is important to spend the few bucks to get a dealer cost from CCC and then work from there. you can also get quotes on a number of vehicles and see which one would cost you less.

ie. you like car A more than B and they both have similar MSRP. but from CCC you find out that car B has a 5k rebate. now you might change your tune

[Maxspeed]

you need to deal with the fleet manager.... try to get the best price from them, they can do alot better than the sales guy.... ive never bought from the sales guy...

[Monsieurmaggot]

I think you're confusing the invoice cost with the MSRP. They're two different things. Invoice is what the dealer pays for the vehicle. MSRP - Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is the market price that the manufacturer sets as a benchmark for dealerships.

Paying below invoice cost is NOT the norm.

True, one has less leverage in trying to negotiate down a hot selling car.

Good luck.

No I mean Invoice.

I just purchased a new 2007 Subaru for $2000 under invoice. I got the car for about $8000 below MSRP. I can't speak about other cars since I was only interested in the Subarus.

I started a thread about how anyone can do this here on RFD. I bought my new car in the US. I saved about $17,000 off Canadian invoice or about $22,000 off Canadian MSRP!

I'm no expert but spent some free time doing research. I couldn't believe the savings in the US so I shared this little gem with the RFD community. Now there are almost 225,000 reads, and over 1,500 replies. I get tons of emails from people telling me they've also found considerable savings when they did their own research.

[airodus]

yah buying from the States is even more savings... i wonder when prices up here will "normalize" to the exchange rate... or somewhere even close to the exchange rate

[Madrid2k]

No I mean Invoice.

I just purchased a new 2007 Subaru for $2000 under invoice. I got the car for about $8000 below MSRP. I can't speak about other cars since I was only interested in the Subarus.

I started a thread about how anyone can do this here on RFD. I bought my new car in the US. I saved about $17,000 off Canadian invoice or about $22,000 off Canadian MSRP!

I'm no expert but spent some free time doing research. I couldn't believe the savings in the US so I shared this little gem with the RFD community. Now there are almost 225,000 reads, and over 1,500 replies. I get tons of emails from people telling me they've also found considerable savings when they did their own research.


That is a seriously sick deal. Congratulations.

Yes, and thanks for initiating that U.S. dealer thread. It's a very interesting read.

Buying here in Canada vs. U.S. is an entirely different animal. Selling cars below invoice is a lot more prevalent down south than it is here.

It is my understanding that you need cash to buy a car in the States, as you can't apply for in-house financing. Nor, can you get a traditional car loan from a Canadian chartered bank to purchase a car from a U.S. dealership.

As well, there was an article in the Wheels section of the Saturday Star last year. It mentioned that while it's a growing trend, some manufacturers are dissuading their dealerships from selling to Canadians. I think NY State Honda and Acura dealerships are forbidden to sell to us.

[Monsieurmaggot]

That is a seriously sick deal. Congratulations.

Yes, and thanks for initiating that U.S. dealer thread. It's a very interesting read.

Buying here in Canada vs. U.S. is an entirely different animal. Selling cars below invoice is a lot more prevalent down south than it is here.

It is my understanding that you need cash to buy a car in the States, as you can't apply for in-house financing. Nor, can you get a traditional car loan from a Canadian chartered bank to purchase a car from a U.S. dealership.

As well, there was an article in the Wheels section of the Saturday Star last year. It mentioned that while it's a growing trend, some manufacturers are dissuading their dealerships from selling to Canadians. I think NY State Honda and Acura dealerships are forbidden to sell to us.

Some Canadian banks are now offering US car loans. Also, Honda and Acura are on very slippery slopes. Toyota recently lost at $35 million class action lawsuit in their attempt to stop US buyers from coming up north a few years ago when the US dollar was so strong. They were charged for various infractions of the Free Trade Agreement including some statutes of the Sherman Act. An interesting site about this stuff is at http://www.naata.org/. All you need to get on paper is a US dealer's email saying they're not permitted to sell to Canadians. I'm sure more than a few lawyers would be interested in this.... Any takers?