New Home Water Heater Saves You Some Money And Generates Electricity Too.

[itsyours]

Feeling the crunch from exorbitant heating bills? Want to save money and remain in Al Gore's good graces? On Tuesday, Honda and Climate Energy announced the freewatt micro-CHP (combined heat and power) cogeneration system for homes, which the companies claim will save customers some cash on their heating bills as well as retain a small environmental footprint.


The freewatt system includes a cogeneration unit developed by Honda that produces 3.26 kilowatts of heat and 1.2 kilowatts of electric power, and can be paired with either a furnace or boiler produced by Climate Energy.

According to both companies, the micro-CHP approach to delivering energy to homes can reduce overall energy usage as well as lower the impacts on the environment by actually using the fuel used to heat a typical home twice.

In essence, the electric power produced by the system is a by-product of its own heating functionality. That electric power displaces the electricity that consumers would otherwise purchase from a local electric utility provider, Climate Energy said.

This can save the average homeowner $500 to $1,000 per year on their electric bills, both companies said. What's more, when a customer replaces his or her typical 80 percent efficiency home heating system with a freewatt system, that they can still see an average of 30 percent cost savings.

Additional savings can also come from utilizing the freewatt system in conjunction with net metering, which is a simplified method of metering the energy consumed and produced at a home or business with its own renewable energy generator. Although only available in certain states, net metering allows homeowners to sell unused electric power back to the grid in their communities.

Climate Energy says it's installing warm air systems now and will be adding to its product line with new models throughout 2007. For now, initial sales of the heat and power units will be targeted at customers living in the Northeastern U.S. due mainly to the region's greater heating demands, the companies said.

While pricing was not announced on Tuesday, the freewatt system for Massachusetts customers has a list price of $13,500, according to Climate Energy's Web site.
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,2111126,00.asp

[venice_it]

With a list price of $13,500, you would not be saving money for a very long time.

For these things to be worthwhile, energy costs have to rise significantly, the government has to offer more rebates and these investments have to add value to a home that will be recouped when the house is sold.

[Pete_Coach]

For these things to be worthwhile, energy costs have to rise significantly, the government has to offer more rebates and these investments have to add value to a home that will be recouped when the house is sold.

For these things to be worthwhile, they need to be a lot cheaper. I wouldn't want the energy prices to rise so much as to make the product worthwhile rather, the product needs to be priced to make it worthwhile. Oh, and Government rebates are always welcome. :)

[rf134a]

Unfortunately, being enviro-friendly does not make economic sense. Why pay $8 for a 20-use pack of detergent when a 26-use Tide is the same price? That's a 30% price difference to be a tree hugger. I'm willing to spend 10% more, but not 30% more.

$13,500 is about 4x the price of a 92% variable gas furnace. Based on their savings of $500/year and a $10,000 price difference, it'll take 20 years to break even, assuming no inflation.

[audit13]

I found out the hard way that trying to save money via energy-saving appliances actually costs a lot! For my new house, I purchased a $1500 tankless water heater, a $350 venting kit, $75 stainless steel extension pipe (since I needed to vent it through a thick brick wall), and $300 in labour. However, I feel somewhat better knowing ( or is it believing) I am doing something to cut down on energy use.

[pipolchap]

http://www.yourhome.ca/homes/article/501079


Huge savings claimed by new system
Builder Eden Oak offering natural gas engine generator technology with release of homes
September 20, 2008

Tracy Hanes

TORONTO STAR

A revolutionary new home heating and electricity generating system is being introduced in southern Ontario by home builder Eden Oak.

The Freewatt system uses a natural gas engine generator technology developed by Honda Japan, to produce domestic space and water heating, as well as electricity for appliances. The Freewatt system claims to offset a consumer's electricity costs by up to 50 per cent while providing year-round electrical and thermal backup power.

By using the heat produced from generating electricity, the Freewatt residential system operates at an overall efficiency of more than twice that of a coal-fired power plant. Generating electricity in the home avoids the electrical transmission losses of up to 10 per cent that occur when energy travels from a centralized generating station. And it's expected Freewatt will reduce household energy greenhouse gas emissions as much as 60 per cent during peak demand.

"Eden Oak is thrilled to be chosen exclusively for this pilot project," says Raeann Fisker, Eden Oak sales and marketing manager. "The Freewatt home technology fits right in with our green home building initiatives to provide our homeowners with the opportunity to save money, live in comfort and conserve energy."

Fisker says later this month, the technology will be introduced at Eden Oak's Vellore Park site in Woodbridge, where it will be included in the purchase price of a new release of homes. The detached homes are priced from $380,000 to $625,000.

The system has already been installed in the model home at Vellore Park near Highway 400, just north of Major Mackenzie Dr.

The pilot program is a collaboration between the government of Canada, Eden Oak, ECR International, Enbridge Gas Distribution and National Grid. Gary Lunn, minister of Natural Resources Canada, says the federal government has invested $70,000 in the project.

The Freewatt system was brought to the North American market by Climate Energy, based in Massachusetts. The company website says the system has been installed in 500,000 homes in Japan.

The Vellore Park sales centre is on Weston Rd., just north of Major Mackenzie Dr. Hours are Monday to Thursday from 1 p.m. to 8 p.m.; Saturday and Sunday from 11 a.m. to 6 p.m., closed Friday. The model home is open weekends from 11 a.m. to 6 p.m. and by appointment on weekdays. Visit edenoak.com.
Toronto Star

[l69norm]

With a list price of $13,500, you would not be saving money for a very long time....

Yes, but I wonder if you could make money on the unit by selling the surplus power back into the grid?

Edit - Nope . It looks like 1 m3 of natural gas = 10 KWh of heat. Assuming 33% efficiency to convert to electricity = 3.3 KWh of electricity X 5 cents per KWh = 18 cents. One m3 of natural gas = 31 cents.

It looks like electricity would have to be more than 10 cents per KWh to get a positive pay back

[stealth]

Thats ok. Technology like this is initially for the rich idealist early adopters like Ed Begley Jr. to buy up and feel good about it, which keeps the developers in business so their R&D can improve the product to the point where it is more efficient and affordable for the common masses.

Nice to see that wheels are turning, but this is too bleeding edge for most of us.

[Anonymouse]

It looks like electricity would have to be more than 10 cents per KWh to get a positive pay back

I'm pretty sure you're paying more than 10 cents for a delivered kWh. Check your bill.

[bionicbadger]

I'm pretty sure you're paying more than 10 cents for a delivered kWh. Check your bill.

I'm locked in at 7 cents for the next 4 years yet.

[bionicbadger]

$13,500 is about 4x the price of a 92% variable gas furnace. Based on their savings of $500/year and a $10,000 price difference, it'll take 20 years to break even, assuming no inflation.

And thats assuming it doesn't break or need to be repaired before 20 years.

[l69norm]

I'm pretty sure you're paying more than 10 cents for a delivered kWh. Check your bill.

If the idea is to make money by pushing power backwards into the grid to offset the high installation cost, I don't believe there is a transmission charge that's applicable.

[Anonymouse]

If the idea is to make money by pushing power backwards into the grid to offset the high installation cost, I don't believe there is a transmission charge that's applicable.

Oh, sorry, I didn't understand what you meant - I thought you were saying you could break even if you were paying more than 10 cents for your electricity, which almost everyone does.

If you're in Ontario, I think if you 1) connect one solar panel to the grid you qualify for a 42 cent rate from the power authority. Once the smart meter is installed, you 2) install your fancy Honda machine (you don't tell the man about it) and 3) Profit. :-)

[Ockham]

If you're in Ontario, I think if you 1) connect one solar panel to the grid you qualify for a 42 cent rate from the power authority. Once the smart meter is installed, you 2) install your fancy Honda machine (you don't tell the man about it) and 3) Profit. :-)

Would that be illegal?

[confused student]

Would that be illegal?
Standard Offer Program

[Anonymouse]

It would be contrary to the spirit of the program and you might be in breach of contract, but I don't think it would be illegal. You wouldn't make a lot of money at it, though, because under the program you can only zero out your electricity bill; you'll never get a cheque for the surplus energy.

There is a reason there was a smiley at the end of my post.

[Ockham]

This is an interesting system and I've contacted the manufacturer to learn more.

Of course, there will be those who wait for such authorities such as Popular Science, Wikipedia or Consumer Reports before making judgement.

The highest energy efficient products have a higher initial cost. What we North Amercians have to wrap our noodles around is over-all costs and value added features. Do you think all the people installing GeoThermal systems are being tricked by the manufacturers or contractors?

It's good to see Enbridge and Natural Resources Canada involved in this project and half a million installs in Japan should serve as a good point of reference.

We have to start getting smarter with our energy consumption and natural unrenewable resources.

[venice_it]

We do have to get smarter about how we use resources, but it always comes down to dollars and cents. A recent survey showed Canadians make "green" choices primarily to save money and secondly to help the environment.

Of course the technology exists to use next to no energy to operate a home, but it doesn't make financial sense for most people. Early adopters get screwed financially because they pay more and often get a worse product than those that wait until it is less expensive and more advanced and more reliable.

I would assume from your posts, you have geothermal, solar panels, tankless hot water heater, highest possible efficiency furnace/ac, pay for Bull Frog electricity and drive a hybrid car. The reality is like most, you'd like to do some of these things, but you can't justify the costs at the present time.

If people have the money and choose these options, people shouldn't be criticized, just like you shouldn't criticize people for making the most economical choices or seeking other opinions than just the manufacturer.

I think much of this comes down to how much energy prices costs and the governments willingness to subsidize green choices. When it is economically viable, better systems will be more widely adopted by the public.

[Ockham]

Hang on there, Sparky. You are trying to throw gas on a non-existent fire. You are misinterpreting some of my more passionate posts here, making incorrect assumptions and sweeping generalizations.

In my professional practice I actually talk people out of higher energy efficient products when I don't believe it will benefit them. Tankless water heaters, 14 SEER air conditioners, etc, are not automatically my recommendation. That's why I conduct a needs analysis prior to selecting options.

However, what I have taken offense to here by a couple supposedly intelligent people are the wild conspiracy theories, false accusations, incorrect assertions, and failure to do the proper research into energy efficient products. I still suspect there are ulterior motives to such incessent protest and spin.

[Anonymouse]

It's not half a million installs in Japan; it's 50 000, which is still a large number. The question I'd like to see addressed is whether home-scale cogeneration is more efficient than centralized NG electricity plants. There is also an issue of grid stabililty with all these microplants - it is an area of active research.

If you have better research about tankless, please present it; don't just whine that all the engineers are conspiring against you. Until you do present such evidence, we have to rely on what has been presented by Consumer Reports and the tank/tankless vendor, both of which sources being consistent with my own calculations/estimates.

[Anonymouse]

The Great Conspiracy of Engineers has produced an interesting article on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_combined_heat_and_power

[Ockham]

If you have better research about tankless, please present it; don't just whine that all the engineers are conspiring against you.

1. I have presented you with research and you ignore it. Here is some more evidence:

http://www.energystar.gov/ia/partners/prod_development/new_specs/downloads/water_heaters/NRCan_052907.pdf


From Enbridge:

"Tankless Water Heater Program
Enbridge Gas Distribution in cooperation with 5 participating manufacturers is promoting the installation of energy efficient natural gas tankless water heaters to restaurants. New Construction eligible.

Enbridge Gas Distribution commercial rate 6 customers may be eligible to receive a $300 rebate on each qualified natural gas tankless water heater manufactured by Bosch, Rinnai, Noritz, Takagi, or Waiwela that is installed to replace existing natural gas or electric water heating systems in restaurants between January 1, 2008 to December 31, 2008.

Used widely in Japan and Europe for years, here are some of the benefits to going tankless:

Saves money by reducing stand–by losses of a conventional hot water storage tank
Saves up to 40%* of hot water consumption.
Saves space and can be located almost anywhere
Instantaneously heats water as it is needed
No disruptions if service is required
Talk to your contractor or any of the participating manufacturers if you're thinking about installing a tankless water heater. Rebate coupons can be obtained from the manufacturer.

* The 40 percent improvement efficiency was determined by comparing the traditional natural gas water heater with storage tank, efficiency of 0.58 and the efficiency of an instantaneous unit of 0.82. The improvement in efficiency is (0.82-0.58) ÷ 0.58 = 0.41 or approximately 40 percent. Verified by NRCan.

Apply for the $300.00 Tankless Water Heater rebate."

https://portal-plumprod.cgc.enbridge.com/portal/server.pt?space=CommunityPage&control=SetCommunity&cached=true&CommunityID=357&PageID=0#tankless




2. "all the engineers" There are only two supposed engineers I have encountered who raise such absurd objections. The engineers at Natural Resources Canada, Enbridge and those that spec tankless water heaters disagree with your position. In addition, the tankless manufacturers employ engineers too so your claim that "all the engineers" is false as most of your other statements.

[antman59]

:eek: I was talking about this about 5 years ago:eek:
I was saying would'nt be more efficeint with energy loss if you could generate your own electricity with natural gas. Now here it is wow:cheesygri

For a new technology the price is not bad. (At this price point the savings are'nt their but it's deffinately a good start. Remember the Blue ray players were over $1000 and are now around $300....The way things are you will start seeing DVD players in cereal boxes cause they are so cheap.

Good Post

[DrXenon]

I'm another member of the Conspiracy of Engineers who thinks Ockham's so-called evidence consists of nothing more than dubious tankless sales literature. Wake me up when there's an objective, third party study in favour of tankless in a Northern climate.

By the way, you need a tank for this Honda system.

I'd be interested in this if I thought I could sell some of the electricity back into the grid, but I don't think the present rules permit that unless it's a renewable source.

[Ockham]

dubious tankless sales literature.

Natural Resources Canada and Enbridge are the two sources I just cited.

Talk to me when you can actually put forth a reasonable argument rather than this childish banter.

[Anonymouse]

All that NRCan letter said was that there's an efficiency gain over storage systems. Nobody is disputing that. What we're disputing is that you're going to save any money over the life of the system.

Enbridge sells natural gas, and would love it if you would buy a tankless water heater and take 4 hour showers. Let's not forget that they buried the only scientific study that I've ever read about in this country, and I think all the intelligent readers of this forum can figure out why.

[Ockham]

I think all the intelligent readers of this forum can figure out why.

Well, then that excludes you two.

Enbridge is mandated by Natural Resources Canada to use our natural resource as efficiently as possible. The more efficient we are with natural gas the longer it will be around.

You just agreed that NRCan is saying tankless water heaters save energy. Energy costs money, therefore tankless water heaters save money - according to the NRCan (I hear they even have engineers).

Clear?

Please take the time to read the following:

http://www.thestar.com/printArticle/273491

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20071108.re-holmes1109/BNStory/RealEstate

http://oee.rncan.gc.ca/equipment/english/page95.cfm?attr=4


People aren't installing tankless water heaters solely for energy savings. There are many more benefits they want and happy to have.

All the cost studies I have seen are based on new equipment in lab conditions. The reality is the appliances go into basements and often have to deal with hard water. A tank absorbs calcium and losses efficiency over time. So if a hundred dollars annual savings is based on year one, I can assure you it is greater beyond that.

Even if it was a hundred dollars over the lifetime of the unit, then combined with the three hundred dollar annual rental fee savings, a tankless "pay-back" is seven years based on a three thousand dollar installation cost.

However, in my experience, people are telling me their savings are greater than that, thus a shorter pay-back time. That's real world experience, not some Wikipedia entry.

I rent a car when I'm out of town as it is more cost effective and convenient than purchasing one. I rent a movie when I'm certain I will only watch it once. Renting a water heater isn't smart money. It's the only thing in a house people rent. Look around the ACC during the next Leafs home game and ask yourself where all the money comes from for all that Direct Energy advertising.

Once again, the rest of the world uses tankless water heaters. Are they all tricked by tankless sales literature or have we North Americans been wasteful with our natural resources?