HDDVD vs. Upscaling quality

[stunaz]

just wondering how big of a difference there is between the quality
i know HDDVD does 1080p... but the xbox360 can upscale normal dvds to 1080i (i think)
is the quality similar? or is it still night and day

[goldenegg]

If you have a good display, the difference is extremely noticable.

[SAN66]

I always get into this argument with people.

I want to see a blind test done on the general population.

Take a sample of a thousand people and bring them each into a room separately. When they enter the room have either an upsampled DVD or a HD-DVD/Bluray-Disc playing on a highdef panel. Ask the person whether what is being played is high def or not.

My hypothesis is that a greater percentage of people will not be able to discern the high definition disc over the upscaled DVD.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a study as described above.

The real question is, are you happy with the quality of your upscaled DVDs/HD Downloads played on your xbox?

[Cruel_Angel]

I always get into this argument with people.

I want to see a blind test done on the general population.

Take a sample of a thousand people and bring them each into a room separately. When they enter the room have either an upsampled DVD or a HD-DVD/Bluray-Disc playing on a highdef panel. Ask the person whether what is being played is high def or not.

My hypothesis is that a greater percentage of people will not be able to discern the high definition disc over the upscaled DVD.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a study as described above.

The real question is, are you happy with the quality of your upscaled DVDs/HD Downloads played on your xbox?

I think your right, I don't think the general public could tell the difference. When I was younger, I worked in an electronics store, where we had 1st generation plasma televisons. 50" pioneer plasmas for 20 000. I remember when we sold the demo unit off the sales floor, and we had nothing to put back in its place. We were left with these ugly holes in the wall from where the bracket was. We decided to just put up a painting in it's place until our next shipments of televisions arrived. I rememebr customers walking up to the painting, walking around it, touching it, and then asking me if it was a televisoin..

[iamfat]

If you have a good display, the difference is extremely noticable.

false. 1080i and 1080p is hardly noticeable, esp if you have a larger screen TV + sit at a normal distance. Maybe if you watch cartoon with hard lines.

[Talamasca]

false. 1080i and 1080p is hardly noticeable, esp if you have a larger screen TV + sit at a normal distance. Maybe if you watch cartoon with hard lines.

But I think the OP was comparing a "true" 1080i HDDVD image vs. an upsampled 480p image. In that case, there is a difference.

[Moot]

There is a huge difference between 1080p and 480i upscaled to 1080i/p. If you cannot see the difference, you are blind.

[jb22]

There is a huge difference between 1080p and 480i upscaled to 1080i/p. If you cannot see the difference, you are blind.

I totally agree, I don't understand how you can't see a difference between SD and HD. I will saw that it does depend a bit on the quality of the transfer, but there is a clear difference.

I recently bought Casino Royal and was forced to get the SD version as I only have the HD DVD drive for my 360 and I hatethat I'm forced to watch it in SD knowing how good it would look in HD.

As a side note, you can also see a difference between broadcast HD and HD DVDs. This isn't a surprise considering the compression that goes on with broadcast signals but I really noticed the difference when King Kong was on TMN and I compared it to the HD DVD.

[ShadowVlican]

There is a huge difference between 1080p and 480i upscaled to 1080i/p. If you cannot see the difference, you are blind.
agreed, HUGE difference

though i wouldn't go as far as saying they are blind.... but
1) probably sitting too far
2) non-HD capable TV (and but that i mean a TV with 1080 lines of NATIVE resolution or more, not that dumbarse 1024x768 rectangle pixeled "HD" plasmas)

i'll leave other issues out of this, such as proper connections ensuring HD, analog component and hdmi, colour calibration, etc.

[Ixidor]

Alright, so there's a huge difference between an upscaled DVD and an HDDVD.

There's also a huge difference between an upscaled DVD and a non-upscaled DVD, right?

I just bought a HDTV and the difference between upscaling improving it by a lot or not would greatly influence my desire to buy the 360 elite >.>

[jeffyjaixx]

Got this over from avsforums.

A picture can speak a thousand words.


SD DVD up-converted (480i>1080i>768p) Pio DV-490V HDMI
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/scrattSD.jpg


Blu-Ray (1080p>1080i>768p) PS3 60g HDMI
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/scrattBR.jpg


Regular SD DVD vs. Blu-ray


SD
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/iceageSD.jpg

Blu-ray
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/iceageBR.jpg

[Ixidor]

Ah, I can see the difference but I had to scroll back and forth more than a few times.

What I really wanna see is a direct upscaled DVD vs. SD DVD

[shawn99]

Is this 1080 p and other is 1080i Jeffy? Other one looks like crap lol
http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/cranktest6.jpg

http://members.shaw.ca/VTXtreme/cranktest4.jpg

[BoxsterS]

I always get into this argument with people.

I want to see a blind test done on the general population.

Take a sample of a thousand people and bring them each into a room separately. When they enter the room have either an upsampled DVD or a HD-DVD/Bluray-Disc playing on a highdef panel. Ask the person whether what is being played is high def or not.

My hypothesis is that a greater percentage of people will not be able to discern the high definition disc over the upscaled DVD.

Unfortunately I haven't been able to find a study as described above.

The real question is, are you happy with the quality of your upscaled DVDs/HD Downloads played on your xbox?

Just as there is no replacement for displacement there is also no replacement for missing data. Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies contain 1080 lines of progressive data while a standard DVD consists of 480 lines of data. Upscaling 480p to 1080p does not magically add these missing 600 lines of data. If you cannot discern the difference between an a DVD upscaled to 1080p and a Blu-ray or HD-DVD movie then your vision isn't that good because you should easily be able to see the additional detail.

[iamfat]

Static images are easy to discern, how about watching it live? Sometimes I have trouble telling Hi Def dvds from SD dvds when the TV is properly calibrated.

[GunnerX]

Static images are easy to discern, how about watching it live? Sometimes I have trouble telling Hi Def dvds from SD dvds when the TV is properly calibrated.

Seriously?? My crappy HD TV is 5 years old and there's a huge difference. Watch parts where there's a lot of people being shown like a stadium. In SD, with the lack of resolution, you will see the people being a blurry mess. In HD, each person is clearly distinct from the next.

[Gedge]

I find that upscaling depends on the source. The SD Star Wars movies look pretty good when upscaled, my girlfriend's SD copy of My Fair Lady (which I don't think was restored/remastered to the level that the Star Wars films were) looks terrible.

I agree though that HD DVDs and Blu-ray discs look noticeably better than upscaled SDs - regardless of the mastering/transfer quality of the SD source.

[SAN66]

Just as there is no replacement for displacement there is also no replacement for missing data. Blu-ray and HD-DVD movies contain 1080 lines of progressive data while a standard DVD consists of 480 lines of data. Upscaling 480p to 1080p does not magically add these missing 600 lines of data. If you cannot discern the difference between an a DVD upscaled to 1080p and a Blu-ray or HD-DVD movie then your vision isn't that good because you should easily be able to see the additional detail.

Obviously you can see the difference when they're side by side.

As stated I want to see a blind study, not side by side comparison, asking people whether a video is HD or Not.

Most people won't know, Audio/Visual freaks aside.

Which begs the question is HD-DVD or Blu-Ray really worth it?

[GunnerX]

Obviously you can see the difference when they're side by side.

As stated I want to see a blind study, not side by side comparison, asking people whether a video is HD or Not.

Most people won't know, Audio/Visual freaks aside.

Which begs the question is HD-DVD or Blu-Ray really worth it?

Um.. isn't that question silly? Why would people blindly buy HD DVD or BR? First, they would need to get a player. If they do get a player then that means they have HD equipment which means they already KNOW the difference between HD and SD.

[Marlek]

This is an absolutely pointless argument unless you are talking about a specific environment, with a specific set of gear. The answer to the OP's question will depend on the size of display, the HD and upsampled SD source, viewing distance, native panel resolution and many other factors.

I can tell you that on my 100" screen the difference is very, very noticeable. Obviously the difference would be less discernible on a 27" screen. Be more specific about your viewing parameters and you might be able to get a better answer.

[NightRain]

Ever watch a divx movie on a HDTV and say "well the quality is pretty great considering it is a compressed DVD, but the actual DVD is still better" ??

Well I've been watching a lot of HD-DVD's lately and I recently watched a couple of regular DVD's and there is a major drop in quality. I felt like I was watching a divx again, until I tried a divx and was just thinking "ugh"

[iamfat]

Seriously?? My crappy HD TV is 5 years old and there's a huge difference. Watch parts where there's a lot of people being shown like a stadium. In SD, with the lack of resolution, you will see the people being a blurry mess. In HD, each person is clearly distinct from the next.

I take that back. You're right. I just watched HellBoy over HD TV 1080i and it kicks the butt outta my SD dvd.

The face and the background are MUCH, MUCH clearer. :D

[Sgt_Strider]

Upscale DVDs can still look good in my opinion, but like what most of you have said, HD DVD/Blu-Ray will look better. I probably wouldn't call it a night and day difference, but it is definitely noticeable.

[BoxsterS]

Obviously you can see the difference when they're side by side.

As stated I want to see a blind study, not side by side comparison, asking people whether a video is HD or Not.

Most people won't know, Audio/Visual freaks aside.

Which begs the question is HD-DVD or Blu-Ray really worth it?

Just curious, do you think most people can't tell the difference between a SDTV picture and an HDTV picture? And if they can't then is HDTV really worth it?

[lapopal]

You have to be blind not to tell the difference between HD and SD, once you experience it a few times you will find yourself never wanting to look back.

[SAN66]

Just curious, do you think most people can't tell the difference between a SDTV picture and an HDTV picture? And if they can't then is HDTV really worth it?

On television, especially for things such as sports broadcasts, its quite easy for most to see the difference between SD and HD, especially with such horrible SD feeds as A-Channel. The difference between a well upscaled DVD and an HD-DVD or Bluray Disc just isn't as astronomical. DVD's go through enough post processing to display a nice enough image for a large percentage of the population.

Again it all boils down to are you happy with the quality of the upscaled DVD's you watch?

[Sgt_Strider]

On television, especially for things such as sports broadcasts, its quite easy for most to see the difference between SD and HD, especially with such horrible SD feeds as A-Channel. The difference between a well upscaled DVD and an HD-DVD or Bluray Disc just isn't as astronomical. DVD's go through enough post processing to display a nice enough image for a large percentage of the population.

Again it all boils down to are you happy with the quality of the upscaled DVD's you watch?

The problem is that not all devices can give it enough post-processing to close the gap between SD and HD. With a powerful computer, it's possible to narrow the difference. Although once you experience HD, it's still easy to figure out which one is upscaled SD and which one is HD.

[Tyrant]

On television, especially for things such as sports broadcasts, its quite easy for most to see the difference between SD and HD, especially with such horrible SD feeds as A-Channel. The difference between a well upscaled DVD and an HD-DVD or Bluray Disc just isn't as astronomical. DVD's go through enough post processing to display a nice enough image for a large percentage of the population.

Again it all boils down to are you happy with the quality of the upscaled DVD's you watch?

I playback my DVDs via a PC with various filters and software to give it an image quality that arguably surpasses that of one of the best standalone DVD players on the market, which is the Oppo Digital 971HD. Having played back Batman Begins on both DVD and HD-DVD, it was very apparent to me that the HD-DVD version delivered a superior picture in terms of clarity and the overall colour seemed better as well. It was a difference like night and day really.

I'm satisfied with the way DVDs look upscaled, but having seen the potential quality that I could see instead via an HD source, there isn't much of a reason to stick with DVD, save for instances where I don't have a choice.

[SAN66]

I playback my DVDs via a PC with various filters and software to give it an image quality that arguably surpasses that of one of the best standalone DVD players on the market, which is the Oppo Digital 971HD. Having played back Batman Begins on both DVD and HD-DVD, it was very apparent to me that the HD-DVD version delivered a superior picture in terms of clarity and the overall colour seemed better as well. It was a difference like night and day really.

I'm satisfied with the way DVDs look upscaled, but having seen the potential quality that I could see instead via an HD source, there isn't much of a reason to stick with DVD, save for instances where I don't have a choice.

I think you are proving my point. You are not the general public. You're happy to spend the extra money for an HD player, plus the $10-15 or so it costs extra to buy the HD Disc, maybe even pay the few hundred to thousand to convert your old media library. The general public is satisfied with the way DVDs look, upscaled or not, most wouldn't even be able to tell you whether an image was HD or not unless it was side by side with SD or the SD was exceptionaly poor, and so adoption of either format will be a slow creep in the big picture.

I'm satisfied with the way DVDs look upscale, but I can't justify the extra cost of HD, for (in the case of upscaled DVDs) minimal visual increase.

By post processing I wasn't simply refering to the processing done in upscaling the DVD, but the post processing done on the DVD to make it look good in the first place, as opposed to what live broadcast can provide.

[Sgt_Strider]

I playback my DVDs via a PC with various filters and software to give it an image quality that arguably surpasses that of one of the best standalone DVD players on the market, which is the Oppo Digital 971HD. Having played back Batman Begins on both DVD and HD-DVD, it was very apparent to me that the HD-DVD version delivered a superior picture in terms of clarity and the overall colour seemed better as well. It was a difference like night and day really.

Uh no, the Oppo is not the best standalone DVD player on the market. There is this Denon player that have this video processor (forgot the name) that is supposively the best on the market. IIRC, the player cost about $2000 USD.

I'm satisfied with the way DVDs look upscaled, but having seen the potential quality that I could see instead via an HD source, there isn't much of a reason to stick with DVD, save for instances where I don't have a choice.

I agree.

[Sgt_Strider]

I think you are proving my point. You are not the general public. You're happy to spend the extra money for an HD player, plus the $10-15 or so it costs extra to buy the HD Disc, maybe even pay the few hundred to thousand to convert your old media library. The general public is satisfied with the way DVDs look, upscaled or not, most wouldn't even be able to tell you whether an image was HD or not unless it was side by side with SD or the SD was exceptionaly poor, and so adoption of either format will be a slow creep in the big picture.

I'm satisfied with the way DVDs look upscale, but I can't justify the extra cost of HD, for (in the case of upscaled DVDs) minimal visual increase.

By post processing I wasn't simply refering to the processing done in upscaling the DVD, but the post processing done on the DVD to make it look good in the first place, as opposed to what live broadcast can provide.

The problem is that most people don't have HDTVs in the first place. HDTV penetration in Canada is small. DVDs look good on my analog base TV. HDTV prices are still relatively high and have not reached a point where mass penetration is possible. Until that point is reached, I think DVD will continue to remain dominant.

Seriously though, I don't think it takes a genius to realize the difference between DVD and upscaled DVD and HD. I'm sure anyone with a brain will be able to tell the difference if they did a side by side comparison.

[Mr.Universe]

A bit off topic but what's a good software scaler/up converter for Windows? Sometimes I like to watch DVDs, Divx, etc. full screen on my PC.

[bembol]

I don't think it's IF they can tell the difference but more of their ATTITUDE towards it/most just don't CARE. As my family/friends say, "what's wrong with DVD's?" or "you're just way too picky."

[Tyrant]

Uh no, the Oppo is not standalone DVD player on the market. There is this Denon player that have this video processor (forgot the name) that is supposively the best on the market. IIRC, the player cost about $2000 USD.


I'm aware of the Denon player and it should be noted that I said "one of the best", not "the best" in the initial post.

[Sgt_Strider]

I'm aware of the Denon player and it should be noted that I said "one of the best", not "the best" in the initial post.

This is what you said:

I playback my DVDs via a PC with various filters and software to give it an image quality that arguably surpasses that of one of the best standalone DVD players on the market, which is the Oppo Digital 971HD.

[ShadowVlican]

A bit off topic but what's a good software scaler/up converter for Windows? Sometimes I like to watch DVDs, Divx, etc. full screen on my PC.
MPEG4 (all variants included) can be decoded by ffdshow, which has a builtin resize filter (lanczos# is most popular method)

there's also other filters that sharpen, reduce noise, etc... which all help to make videos look better

to use ffdshow with DVDs, you will lose the hardware acceleration and any of its enhancements, like nVidia's PureVideo

[milhaus]

This is what you said:

Uh, yeah, like Tyrant said: "one of the best" . . .

"I playback my DVDs via a PC with various filters and software to give it an image quality that arguably surpasses that of one of the best standalone DVD players on the market, which is the Oppo Digital 971HD.

[Tyrant]

Yeah, what milhaus said. ;)

[aidzhsiah]

I don't think it's IF they can tell the difference but more of their ATTITUDE towards it/most just don't CARE. As my family/friends say, "what's wrong with DVD's?" or "you're just way too picky."

I agree.

I have a friend who thinks the improvement of component vs composite cables wasn't going to be worth the investment of going down to the store to buy them.

[inaktive]

I think of "upscaling vs HD dvd" to the differece between "High preformance gas and regular" I mean.. you don't really know the difference unless you use it in your high preformance car (I own a crossfire) just like if you watch HD movies then watch upscaled dvds. But that being said If you simply watch upscaled (which is what i do as i own a BUNCH load of regular SD efes and don't want to spend all the money to replace all of them all! ) Maybe when the prices come down lol I'll think of totally switching over to HD Dvd. :cheesygri