Safe to vaccinate infants?

[Xax]

Inspired by another topic, I'm interested in information and discussion regarding the safety of vaccinating infants. I've heard both arguments; that they're not safe, and that today's vaccines are safe, but I'm hoping for some informed, qualified input. Are certain infant vaccines more important or safe/dangerous than others?

[CSK'sMom]

Xax, who are you going to use as a ped. for the twins? Dr Jackiewicz is great, in our experience with her. That is your best source of information IMHO. Now I will say that as ill as our middle son was as an infant (spent more time in hospital than at home his 1st year) we still did his full vaccinations. With the guidanceof Sick Kids and several doctors here in Niagara we felt the risk was too high for complications if he wasn't vaccinated...

Just thought I'd remind you of the kids clothes and equipment sale coming up at the Op. Center across from Zehrs on April 14th, 9-12. :D

[Xax]

Xax, who are you going to use as a ped. for the twins? Dr Jackiewicz is great, in our experience with her. That is your best source of information IMHO.
We don't yet know who we will be going with for a pediatrician. What made you go with Dr. Jackiewicz?

Just thought I'd remind you of the kids clothes and equipment sale coming up at the Op. Center across from Zehrs on April 14th, 9-12. :D
Thanks very much! We'll definitely be checking it out.

[shoppingmama]

My opinion...NO! This is not a decision we took lightly, after years of research, we decided not to vaccinate our children. After my nephew died from a vaccine reaction we started to research while we were pregnant with our first child over 11 years ago. My mom is in the medical field, as well as my mother in law but with their blessing are kids are vaccine free. It's been awhile since our decision was made but I have no regrets. We looked at every disease, every vaccine product insert, every medical journal article, etc... In the end there was not one vaccine we felt was worth the risk. It's not an easy decision but one we are glad we made before our kids received any.

[tkl]

We did all the recommended stuff up to his current age of 14 months.

[CSK'sMom]

It's a funny story how we ended up with Dr Jackiewicz Xax. Sick Kids originally recommended Dr Williams (ended up as regional health dr) to us as local care for our middle son. When she gave up private practice she recommended Dr Jackiewicz. It ended up that she had cared for our son during one of his hospital stays in St Catharines General. During that stay he was tested for CF and she was terrific with us. She told us exactly why he needed to be tested, reassured us and did lots of hand-holding which we absolutely needed at the time. She made sure we had every bit of information we needed to make decisions and was prompt at making referrals to other specialists when needed.

She also has added speciality of ADD/HD, learning disabilities, etc. Our other 2 kids see her for their ADHD, she's been great with them.

[getmail99]

My opinion...NO! This is not a decision we took lightly, after years of research, we decided not to vaccinate our children. After my nephew died from a vaccine reaction we started to research while we were pregnant with our first child over 11 years ago. My mom is in the medical field, as well as my mother in law but with their blessing are kids are vaccine free. It's been awhile since our decision was made but I have no regrets. We looked at every disease, every vaccine product insert, every medical journal article, etc... In the end there was not one vaccine we felt was worth the risk. It's not an easy decision but one we are glad we made before our kids received any.

Thanks, this is great info:!: Very useful. This is very encouraging for the parents who don't want to vaccine their babies. Doctors always bully you into vaccine. Even walk in clinics doctors give you a hard look when you tell them the baby is not up to schedule.

"Benefit outweigh risks", they never tell you the risk is death, just some fever and rash.;).

[Bullseye]

My understanding is that if you don't get the required vaccinations, your child will not be allowed into the public school system. They require proof of it, I'm told (maybe Ontario only?).

Shoppingmama, what is your experience with this? Did you home school?

We weren't entirely comfortable with vaccines, either, but did them because of the school issue, and for the 'greater good'. Forgoing them is essentially a selfish decision, your child will still likely be safe from these horrible diseases, but only because every OTHER kid is getting vaccinated for them. If everyone stopped getting them, there would very likely be a resurgence of these old diseases that have been contained for decades. Vaccines are heavily tested, and are quite safe. There is a risk in everything we do, the risk with vaccines is there, but miniscule.

[krobin]

non-vacc inated kids are allowed in Ontario schools there is another form you must fill out when your child starts JK. I vaccinated my children but that is what my daughter's vaccination form said

[Bullseye]

'Is immunization required for attendance at school or day care in Ontario ?
For children attending school in Ontario, a written immunization record or proof of immunization is required, by law, for diphtheria, tetanus, polio, measles, mumps and rubella unless there is a valid written exemption. Parents/guardians are required to provide this information to their local public health unit, and to update the information as necessary. There are specific vaccines required for children attending licensed daycare centres. You should contact your local public health unit or check with your daycare centre, for the specific immunization requirements.

You may decide because of medical, religious or philosophical reasons not to immunize your child. In this case, you will need to provide a valid written exemption to your local public health unit. If the disease appears in your child's school or daycare, your child may have to stay out of school/daycare until the disease is no longer present.'

http://www.health.gov.on.ca/english/public/program/immun/immunization.html

I guess the key word here is 'valid'. Seems like it wouldn't be too hard to qualify though, seeing as 'philosophical' reasons is listed.

[mart242]

We weren't entirely comfortable with vaccines, either, but did them because of the school issue, and for the 'greater good'. Forgoing them is essentially a selfish decision, your child will still likely be safe from these horrible diseases, but only because every OTHER kid is getting vaccinated for them. If everyone stopped getting them, there would very likely be a resurgence of these old diseases that have been contained for decades. Vaccines are heavily tested, and are quite safe. There is a risk in everything we do, the risk with vaccines is there, but miniscule.

:arrowu: I did the same as bullseye.

[Xax]

I've been researching this issue more, from both sides of the fence. While keeping in mind their obvious bias against vaccination, and that it doesn't make sense to consider only one side's arguments, the Canadian-based Vaccine Risk Awareness Network may be of some interest to some (vran.org).

My understanding is that if you don't get the required vaccinations, your child will not be allowed into the public school system. They require proof of it, I'm told (maybe Ontario only?).
You can choose to not vaccinate for just about any reason you like, and your children would still be able to attend public schools.

We weren't entirely comfortable with vaccines, either, but did them because of the school issue, and for the 'greater good'. Forgoing them is essentially a selfish decision, your child will still likely be safe from these horrible diseases, but only because every OTHER kid is getting vaccinated for them. If everyone stopped getting them, there would very likely be a resurgence of these old diseases that have been contained for decades.
I suppose you could say that refraining from putting potentially dangerous substances into my children's bodies for the sake of the so-called "greater good" is selfish, but I'm not sure I see it quite that way. One could argue that doing so would be unethical.

Vaccines are heavily tested, and are quite safe. There is a risk in everything we do, the risk with vaccines is there, but miniscule.
That could very well be the case, but what is your reason for believing so?

[Bullseye]

I suppose you could say that refraining from putting potentially dangerous substances into my children's bodies for the sake of the so-called "greater good" is selfish, but I'm not sure I see it quite that way. One could argue that doing so would be unethical.

Not sure how it could be seen as anything but selfish, really. If your argument is ethical, then your efforts should be aimed at scrapping vaccinations for ALL kids. Ethics are not selective, you can't apply one set to your kids and one to everyone else's. You would then have to be aware of the ethics of opening our population to the scourge of old diseases that would likely cause many times more deaths than vaccinations now cause. That would be a tough one to reconcile.

The basis for my assessment of vaccine risk? Statistics, the death rate is very low for vaccines, especially when compared to the death rates for the diseases they prevent.

The VRAN is an activist group, not very reliable as a fair and balanced source of info. They have an obvious bias, and they have also been discredited by the medical community, who actually use peer-reviewed studies as their basis, unlike the VRAN. Here's an article you may find interesting about them;

http://www.scq.ubc.ca/?p=634

The problem is that most of us are blinded by emotion on this, we want to protect our kids, and those not doing getting vaccines are just acting in what they feel is in the best interests of those kids. The best interests of society pale in comparison, to most people. Which is why these things need to be legislated, people are inherently self-interested, they will rarely act for the greater good if the cost to their own interests is deemed too high. For example, everyone will recycle, but ask them to swallow a 20% gas tax increase that would pay for environmental programs? Not a chance.

[Bullseye]

Another link giving a bit of the 'other sides' story;

http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2005/05/anti-vaccination-crowd-needs-pill.html

A link to a related CBC story;

http://www.healthwatcher.net/chirowatch.com/Chiro-anti-vax/TV/CBC%20Marketplace%20Vaccines_files/cbc040120transcript.html

[CSK'sMom]

Discussions around vaccinations, flu shots, etc. usually end up the same way. IMO,those who choose not to rely on those who choose to do it for their protection. Many seem to be under the impression the diseases we vaccinate for are minor nuisances. They were not and still are not. It all comes down to what one perceives as "acceptable risk". Personally, for us, we decided with superb medical advice, that the risk of complications if a disease was contracted was far too high and the small risk of vaccination was minimal in comparison...

Now when dealing with babies that are preemie, low birth weight or have other complications or medical conditions I honestly believe it's a topic that one needs really good medical advice to get an accurate picture to filter out the radicals...

[Diamondog]

Seems to make sense if all kids stopped getting these vaccines they would rear their ugly heads again in great volumes.....makes sense that kids that don't get vaccines are protected probably more so because of children who do get them keeping the diseases at bay.

[Xax]

Thanks for the links, Bullseye, and for everyone's input. At this point, I am planning to vaccinate (unless our pediatrician advises otherwise for a particular reason).

[Venusia]

It seems to me that vaccines have been around for long enough to be able to gauge whether they are beneficial or detrimental overall. From what I've read (not much, granted - I did not hesitate to vaccinate) it seems that where vaccination programs have been put in place many dangerous diseases have all but disappeared.

Johnny Depp's 7 year old daughter spent over a week in the hospital and is still recovering from blood poisoning which spread to her organs she got from getting cut on a rusty nail. Just conjecture at this point, but people are assuming she didn't get her tetanus shots.

[getmail99]

Discussions around vaccinations, flu shots, etc. usually end up the same way.


That is why I don't start this kind of thread. Always no conclusion. So my other thread just points out a major flaw
in research if you believe everything your doctors tell you.

IMO,those who choose not to rely on those who choose to do it for their protection.

IMO, I don't think so. First, if the vaccine really effective?

I came across several research about the effectiveness of vaccine. I don't have my links now. I googled and find this one

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/291/7/851

[getmail99]

Not sure how it could be seen as anything but selfish, really.

Vaccine is a personal choice. What is selfish and not
selfish? You are injecting unknown substances into my
body :)


The basis for my assessment of vaccine risk? Statistics, the death rate is very low for vaccines, especially when compared to the death rates for the diseases they prevent.


shoppingmama think that it is the other way around. Also, "statistics" and
actually you know something died is different. What happen if your son, your
relative or your friend is one of the "statistics".

Did your statistics include SID ;)
Also, you only consider death, did you also include autism.
If you look at my other thread, the doctors still cannot figure it out. They think they get it. Sorry, wrong data.



The problem is that most of us are blinded by emotion on this, we want to protect our kids, and those not doing getting vaccines are just acting in what they feel is in the best interests of those kids. The best interests of society pale in comparison, to most people. Which is why these things need to be legislated, people are inherently self-interested, they will rarely act for the greater good if the cost to their own interests is deemed too high. For example, everyone will recycle, but ask them to swallow a 20% gas tax increase that would pay for environmental programs? Not a chance.

I wish I get the answer. But please, tell me who I should
believe. Give me a research paper comparing data in
Montreal and Quebec City and ask me to give your full
mark? If I am the teacher, I will give it a zero mark.

Oh, by the way, our tax money is paying this kind of professor or doctors. :D

Talking about selfish. This is in my other thread, I just repeat here for easy reading. This can be found on the
CDC website for a conference about the safety of Thimerosal, on page 200. This is the talking of a
Thimerosal expert doctor.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/news/simptrans072005.pdf

"Forgive this personal comment,
but I got called out at eight o'clock for an
emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son
by C-section. Our first male in the line of the next
generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a
Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what
is going on. It will probably take a long time. In the
meantime, and I know there are probably implications for
this internationally, but in the meanwhile I think I want
that grandson to only be given Thimerosal-free vaccines."

[getmail99]

Thanks for the links, Bullseye, and for everyone's input. At this point, I am planning to vaccinate (unless our pediatrician advises otherwise for a particular reason).

Ha, Ha, you think you have done your research. Not yet.
Two more assignments :cheesygri

Do you know vaccine may contain peanut oil. So you try
your best to avoid peanut in the first 3 years for your
baby and the doctor just injects peanut oil to your baby
at 2, 4, 6 and 18 months. ;)

The peanut oil is in adjuvant 65-4. Search for "peanut oil"
in these html pages.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract
http://www.mercksource.com/pp/us/cns...dmd_a_16zPzhtm

The purpose of adjuvant in vaccine, research it yourself,
this is an easy assignment. ;) okay, okay, if you cannot find it. Let me know. :cheesygri

So many research, just vaccine it, who cares :cheesygri

[mart242]

Do you know vaccine may contain peanut oil. So you try
your best to avoid peanut in the first 3 years for your
baby and the doctor just injects peanut oil to your baby
at 2, 4, 6 and 18 months. ;)


Huh? My son has been eating peanut butter like crazy since he's one. Why wait 3 years? That's almost his comfort food. When he's fussy or super tired, one banana, some bread and peanut butter always makes him happy.

I believe that if kids these days are allergic to everything, it's not really because they ate some when they were young but it's mostly caused by all the chemicals in most household, things like the little "Glade" air fresheners and stuff like that.

[mart242]

Talking about selfish. This is in my other thread, I just repeat here for easy reading. This can be found on the
CDC website for a conference about the safety of Thimerosal, on page 200. This is the talking of a
Thimerosal expert doctor.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/news/simptrans072005.pdf

"Forgive this personal comment,
but I got called out at eight o'clock for an
emergency call and my daughter-in-law delivered a son
by C-section. Our first male in the line of the next
generation, and I do not want that grandson to get a
Thimerosal containing vaccine until we know better what
is going on. It will probably take a long time. In the
meantime, and I know there are probably implications for
this internationally, but in the meanwhile I think I want
that grandson to only be given Thimerosal-free vaccines."

You should at least dig the proper facts:
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/03vol29/acs-dcc-1/index.html
Table 1. List of vaccines recommended for routine infant immunization Note: none of these vaccines contains thimerosal as a preservative

[ragin_pyro]

Inspired by another topic, I'm interested in information and discussion regarding the safety of vaccinating infants. I've heard both arguments; that they're not safe, and that today's vaccines are safe, but I'm hoping for some informed, qualified input. Are certain infant vaccines more important or safe/dangerous than others?

Since probably noone is qualified on this forum to say anything, and it's all opinion..seek medical professional?

But, from my microbio class..we got into this just the other day, and how some vaccines are dangerous...some are made from a modified virus that could possibly revert back to its original state. Some are from the dead virus's, some are just the antigen separated from the virus, and some, arnt even the virus, hep b I think he said was from a genetically modified yeast just producing and identical protein coat.

I'm sure you can find a doctor that can explain all the risks to you.

[Diamondog]

How did these diseases become contained or eradicated????? By not vaccinating? I don't think so.....Is there not enough evidence simply in the fact that these diseases have been eradicated or contained that vaccines work and are beneficial?

[Xax]

Since probably noone is qualified on this forum to say anything, and it's all opinion..seek medical professional?
I plan on discussing it with my doctor, but I don't see the wisdom in putting all of my eggs in one basket. I don't believe that any one doctor has all of the right answers about everything, or that you have to have a PhD to be knowledgeable about certain medical issues.

[getmail99]

You should at least dig the proper facts:
http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/publicat/ccdr-rmtc/03vol29/acs-dcc-1/index.html

Yes, I knew this already. Look at all the paper I have read,
I did not miss this one.

I am talking about the "selfish" here. I just want to show the
"selfish" of the doctor, not thimerosal. I cannot find a
better paper showing the "selfish" of the doctor. Can you
find something like that? ;)

[getmail99]

Huh? My son has been eating peanut butter like crazy since he's one. Why wait 3 years? That's almost his comfort food. When he's fussy or super tired, one banana, some bread and peanut butter always makes him happy.

I believe that if kids these days are allergic to everything, it's not really because they ate some when they were young but it's mostly caused by all the chemicals in most household, things like the little "Glade" air fresheners and stuff like that.

Same as me, I don't think eating peanut has a problem.
Why? Chinese use peanut oil to cook and feed the kids
at a young age for so many years, yet Asian are rare in
allergic.

But injecting peanut oil is different. The peanut oil in
vaccine is used to stimulate the immune response of
the kids.

I just wanted to point out that the doctors suggest one
thing and on the other do another thing. Ask parents not
to feed peanut but inject peanut oil at the same time.

[getmail99]

Since probably none is qualified on this forum to say anything, and it's all opinion..seek medical professional?

Make sure the medical professional is not the one who
confuse Quebec City with Montreal (Check my other
thread).



But, from my microbio class..we got into this just the other day, and how some vaccines are dangerous...some are made from a modified virus that could possibly revert back to its original state. Some are from the dead virus's, some are just the antigen separated from the virus, and some, arnt even the virus, hep b I think he said was from a genetically modified yeast just producing and identical protein coat.

Did your professor tell you vaccine contain peanut oil, and
what is the purpose of peanut oil in adjuvant 65-4. Ask the
professor is it okay to inject peanut oil to baby. Is there
any long term research showing injecting peanut oil in
baby will not result in allergic? I really like a professional
answer.


I'm sure you can find a doctor that can explain all the risks to you.

Risks? What risks? All explained in the government or
pediatrician association handout. If there is risk, "Benefits
always outweigh the risks" ;) . That is usually I can get
from the doctor. Oh, they don't even tell you vaccine is
not mandatory, but tell you that you need vaccine record
to go to school, and which is not correct.

[getmail99]

As usual, this kind of discussion is pointless, that is why I don't want to start this topic. It always ends with "seek professional medical advice". I started another thread because that stupid research paper really made me angry. How can that kind of paper published in a peer-reviewed journal.

Anyway, I answered all my opinion in this thread. I don't want to spend more time on this or the other thread of mine. If the parents just go with the main stream, then just vaccinate the babies. All the suggestions from the main stream is vaccinate the baby. If the parents want to know more about "the unknown substances" injected into their babies, as shoppingmama said, "after years of research", the parents need to do their own research.

[trini]

Well my partner has never been vaccinated, my midwife who is also a nurse does not have any of her 4 children ages 19-28 vaccinated and my mth old son has not been vaccinated as of yet.
If you do make sure it is mercury free.

[getmail99]

The VRAN is an activist group, not very reliable as a fair and balanced source of info. They have an obvious bias, and they have also been discredited by the medical community, who actually use peer-reviewed studies as their basis, unlike the VRAN. Here's an article you may find interesting about them;

http://www.scq.ubc.ca/?p=634



Sorry for this late reply, only now I have the time to read the article. I should not spend more time on this thread ;) .

Of course the article discredited VRAN, It was written by a student who "As a biology student, vaccines were something I simply believed in".

As I have said, any non main stream websites or info are considered as "junk science" by the main stream.

On the internet is a whole, actually I think VRAN is a good source to balance the main stream and non main stream info. It also quotes a lot of peer-reviewed studies, but these studies point to the other direction of the policies of the governments or medical associations. For example, some of these peer-reviewed studies question the effectiveness of the flu shots. The governing bodies usually keep it quiet and the non main stream website will link it. Usually the media only publish the "good" studies.

[getmail99]

Xax, came across this one, for you to enjoy.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions/archive/index.php/t-460905.html

[Morphius909]

I believe my IQ dropped a few points reading this thread.

I do respect others opinions, but this...is just wierd.

Vaccine vs No Vaccine.

Here's another one:

Kids Lives vs Kid Dies.

I work in Biotech, I have a 2 year old, I have a university degree with a lot of focus in Microbiology.

Get your children vaccinated. YES, there are reactions, and yes the Benefits outweigh the risks. There are a lot of arguments: Risks, no proof and my favorite one "If all the other children are vaccinated, why do I need to get mine vaccinated, blah blah blah". Hmmm let's use some elementary common sense here: If everyone stops vaccinating their child now...and if all the children grow up like they should...*now stay with me* eventually vaccinated and non vaccinated will live their life *assuming the non vaccinated don't get sick* and eventually die. So now , we have no children vaccinated against anything, Tah Duh. You're kids are all going to get very very very sick or sadly die.

Guess what, I can find links stating that the Earth is Still FLAT.

I do feel for those parents that have had children who have gotten very bad reactions to vacinnes, I couldn't believe how one could react to that. One reaction would definitely make me hesitant, but the fact is, vaccines do prevent against major illnesses. It's amazing how poorly parents "parent" their children, yet when it comes to something like this, they are on it like stink on a monkey. Have you checked your car seat lately for proper installation, or how about normal household hazards? Fed your kid Pop or junk food? Don't read to your child enough? Yell at your little one just because?

[getmail99]

Get your children vaccinated. YES, there are reactions, and yes the Benefits outweigh the risks. There are a lot of arguments: Risks, no proof


Sorry, you just said "Benefits outweigh the risks". So you agree there is risk. Then what is "Risks, no proof". Why do you need a proof when you agree there is risk:confused:


and my favorite one "If all the other children are vaccinated, why do I need to get mine vaccinated, blah blah blah". Hmmm let's use some elementary common sense here: If everyone stops vaccinating their child now...and if all the children grow up like they should...*now stay with me* eventually vaccinated and non vaccinated will live their life *assuming the non vaccinated don't get sick* and eventually die. So now , we have no children vaccinated against anything, Tah Duh. You're kids are all going to get very very very sick or sadly die.


Sorry, I don't get it. My IQ may drop more than you. You try to point out something and suddenly jump to the conclusion that "You're kids are all going to get very very very sick or sadly die.":confused:


Guess what, I can find links stating that the Earth is Still FLAT.


I think all the people know how to use google. Is there any special search engine you want to share?

However, I find something really special about MMR vaccine and autism. I find a research paper published in 2006, quite new, written by an expert doctor in a peer-reviewed journal. The research paper used a set of data from Montreal compared to another set of data from Quebec City and concluded that that is no link between MMR vaccination and autism.

Here is an article about the research paper,
http://www.vaproject.org/yazbak/tale-of-two-cities-20070307.htm

Here is the original research paper,
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/118/1/e139
in pdf format
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/118/1/e139.pdf

I think this article and paper are more interesting than Earth is Flat.


I do feel for those parents that have had children who have gotten very bad reactions to vacinnes, I couldn't believe how one could react to that. One reaction would definitely make me hesitant, but the fact is, vaccines do prevent against major illnesses.

If your child's reaction to vaccine is death, do you hesitate? I will.

Thanks for your professional medical advice.

I should not spend more time on this thread :|

[Toronto]

I definitely agree with Morphius909 here. Of course there are very minimal risks with vaccines but there are risks with EVERYTHING, including NOT vaccinating your child. Maybe you should find a nice bubble for your child? Point is, telling people that vaccinations are not safe when millions of them are done on a weekly basis is treading in very dangerous waters. Is the death rate from vaccines really that high? Do you have a statistic on this?

[mart242]

If your child's reaction to vaccine is death, do you hesitate? I will.


But on the other hand, your child could end up dying or severly impaired due to an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine...

[getmail99]

But on the other hand, your child could end up dying or severly impaired due to an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine...

Did you miss shoppingmama on page 1.

My opinion...NO! This is not a decision we took lightly, after years of research, we decided not to vaccinate our children. After my nephew died from a vaccine reaction we started to research while we were pregnant with our first child over 11 years ago. My mom is in the medical field, as well as my mother in law but with their blessing are kids are vaccine free. It's been awhile since our decision was made but I have no regrets. We looked at every disease, every vaccine product insert, every medical journal article, etc... In the end there was not one vaccine we felt was worth the risk. It's not an easy decision but one we are glad we made before our kids received any.

[getmail99]

I definitely agree with Morphius909 here. Of course there are very minimal risks with vaccines but there are risks with EVERYTHING, including NOT vaccinating your child. Maybe you should find a nice bubble for your child? Point is, telling people that vaccinations are not safe when millions of them are done on a weekly basis is treading in very dangerous waters. Is the death rate from vaccines really that high? Do you have a statistic on this?

Again, did you miss shoppingmama on page 1?

It is up to the parent to decide. Remember, this is internet. Who cares, he/she is not my DD or DS. They are yours. You are the parent.

You can ask your doctors for all the official statistics, oh,
remember also ask the statistics of SIDS.

Go ahead, vaccine your kids. Forget all you read in this thread. Who cares? I don't want to spend more time on this thread again.

[Toronto]

Again, did you miss shoppingmama on page 1?

It is up to the parent to decide. Remember, this is internet. Who cares, he/she is not my DD or DS. They are yours. You are the parent.

You can ask your doctors for all the official statistics, oh,
remember also ask the statistics of SIDS.

Go ahead, vaccine your kids. Forget all you read in this thread. Who cares? I don't want to spend more time on this thread again.

No I did not miss her comment. I read through the entire thread but that is the first incident I've ever heard about that happening.

If I told you I knew someone that died in a car accident will you stop driving? I need more to go on than just one person's account as you have not provided much evidence. I have googled to find more info but still haven't found enough info to show the risk outweighs the reward as it still seems like there is more risk not vaccinating.

Everyone I know has been vaccinated from birth including my 6 month old son. There are risks with EVERYTHING you do so one story will not change my mind, but that doesn't mean I won't listen.

By the way, I bet you will spend more time on this thread :)

[Bullseye]

It's obvious that getmail99 is beyond reach or reason, I realized early in this thread that he/she is a true convert to conspiracy theory paranoia, and gave up the pointless debate. Arguing with such people will get you as far as debating with a Jehovah's Witness would.

[getmail99]

No I did not miss her comment. I read through the entire thread but that is the first incident I've ever heard about that happening.

If I told you I knew someone that died in a car accident will you stop driving? I need more to go on than just one person's account as you have not provided much evidence. I have googled to find more info but still haven't found enough info to show the risk outweighs the reward as it still seems like there is more risk not vaccinating.

Everyone I know has been vaccinated from birth including my 6 month old son. There are risks with EVERYTHING you do so one story will not change my mind, but that doesn't mean I won't listen.

By the way, I bet you will spend more time on this thread :)

"but that doesn't mean I won't listen". Good, since you are listening, I don't mind spend a little more time with you. We will wonder why I spend so much time on this thread. Why, same as you. At the beginning, you think those just statistics, number, never happen to you.

So, I gave my child the first shot. He had a fever, and rash on the face as red as a red apple for 3 days. This was not the problem as the doctors will tell you. The problem was he was so weak. Always slept, woke up just for breast feeding. However, he was so weak that he could not get a good latch for breast feeding. Even he can manage to latch, he was so sick, weak and tire that he can only breast feed for 5 to 10 minutes. At that time, same as your son, his usual big meal is 30 minutes to 40 minutes. With the fever, weak, tire and lack of liquid, he breathing is very weak. I have to check his breathing every hour to make sure he is not death, SIDS. At that time, I always wondered if he can wake up the next hour. This lasted for 3 days. At that moment, all the 0.0000000000000000001% or what ever percentage statistics meant nothing. You feel like it is 100%. Of course you can say that this also applies to other illness. Well, this is up to the parent to compare the possibilities. He is not death. But, if you ask me to go through this again. No way.

So I spent more time on research and try to find out if vaccine is necessary. Many people on this thread think I am anti-vaccine. No, I am not. Vaccine is good, why not, why do I need to anti it. If it is really "Benefits outweigh the risks". The question is do the researchers under estimate the risks? Am I "conspiracy theory paranoia"? If I am, why do I need to read all these research papers.

What is the long term effect of peanut oil in vaccine? Nobody knows.

What is the relationship between MMR and autism? What happen to the paper I mentioned several times? It used the wrong data to prove there is no link. I don't know why they want to publish that stupid paper and refuse to correct it even someone point out the problem.

Here is another paper in JAMA, not so flaw but challenged as "optical illusion"

"Time Trends in Autism and in MMR Immunization Coverage in California" by Dales et al is the last epidemiological study aimed directly at the Wakefield research. The authors of this US-based study are associated with the California Department of Health (26). The authors reported that"Essentially no correlation was observed between the secular trend of early childhood MMR immunization rates in California and the secular trend in numbers of children with autism enrolled in California's regional service center system. For the 1980-1994 birth cohorts, a marked, sustained increase in autism case numbers was noted, from 44 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1980 cohort to 208 cases per 100 000 live births in the 1994 cohort (a 373% relative increase), but changes in early childhood MMR immunization coverage over the same time period were much smaller and of shorter duration. Immunization coverage by the age of 24 months increased from 72% to 82%, a relative increase of only 14%, over the same time period."

Dales and Associates then authoritatively concluded "These data do not suggest an association between MMR immunization among young children and an increase in autism occurrence".

Michael Edwardes, PhD and Marc Baltzan, MD, FRCPC, Royal Victoria Hospital, Montreal, Quebec immediately challenged the Dales report. (27)

In a letter to JAMA they stated,"Dr. Dales and colleagues reported that there was "essentially no correlation'' between rates of autism and measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine, but this conclusion is based on their Figure, which seems to be an optical illusion. We took the y-axis values directly from the Figure and computed the correlation coefficients, which are 0.73 and 0.90 between the total number of autism cases and the percentage of children receiving immunization by 24 months and 17 months, respectively. The illusion of no relationship is due to the vertically compressed graph?Furthermore, their data show that the age of immunization was becoming younger between 1981 and 1993. In our Figure 1, we plot the ratio of children immunized before age 17 months with those immunized between age 17 and 24 months. This ratio increased 200% from 1981 to 1993. Thus, if the total number of autism cases divided by the total number of births are near the true incidence rates for California, the data also suggest that the rate of early MMR immunization is correlated with the incidence of autism."


Did you receive the handout by the doctor saying that there is no brain damage?
The next link is from the washingtonpost, a main stream newspaper. From a main stream newspaper, I guess this is real.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A10020-2003Jul31&notFound=true

Okay, same as shoppingmama, I have done my own research, just want to share some of them with the readers here. It is up to the parent to do their own research. Actually shoppingmama have done a good job, 10 years ago internet was not popular and she can find a lot of materials. I just sit here and use my browser.

[Toronto]

That was a very long and interesting read (really annoyed me that it automatically refreshes the page every few minutes and starts back at the top though). How old was your child when he/she got their first shot and had the reaction?

[pupazzo]

I have no problems with people who opt out but I laugh at them when they actually get the disease. Although the diseases a rare in Canada, Toronto has high volumes of people coming from other countries who can easily import the diseases. Have fun giving birth to a mutant because you got rubella while pregnant lulz. :D

[getmail99]

That was a very long and interesting read (really annoyed me that it automatically refreshes the page every few minutes and starts back at the top though). How old was your child when he/she got their first shot and had the reaction?

At three month.

We did some minor research and actually thought about doing the first shot at six months. We tried to delay it and the doctor bullied us into giving the first shot at three month. Looking back, six months should be a better move as the baby is stronger and should not be so weak.

One may argue that in this case the baby is vulnerable at the first six month. Yes, but remember, the breast feeding babies have very good protection from the mother's milk. And I am talking about real breast feeding, not expressed breast milk.

Because I am not going to risk my baby with the vaccine any more. His protection has to come from breast feeding. You can see why I am also an expert in breast feeding ;) Actually I find breast feeding is very good, so far, he is 2 1/2 years now. When he is sick (mostly flu from the parents or contact with other kids), his temperature usually is just 37.8 to 38.2. Usually high is only 38.5 or 38.6.

Only for one hour he is around 39.0. That is when he has roseola. Even the roseola fever lasted only 2 days and by the time we noticed the rash, we checked the internet and found out it was roseola. The next morning, the rash has gone. The whole roseola process only lasted 3 days and he did not appear to be very sick.

IMO, the best defense is not vaccine, is real (not expressed ) breast feeding, together with co-sleeping or attached parent. Why real breast feeding and attached parent? This is for what I have read and researched. It is all over the places and it is hard for me to dig out all the bookmarks. But here is sort of the conclusion I remembered, you may want to find it yourself. The real breast feeding, co-sleep or attached parent is to provide a feed back system. Any disease received by the baby will pass back to the mother through breast feeding, co-sleeping or attached parent. The mother will manufacture the antibodies and give to the baby through breast feeding. Of course, for expressed breast milk, some of the antiviral and antibodies may be lost and the feed back system is not as good as the baby's month touching the mother's breast.

okay, this is all my non-professional non-peer-reviewed advice, use it at your own risk. At least, I would not confuse Quebec City with Montreal as some professional medical doctors did.

BTW, most, if not all, of the statistics did not take into the consideration of breast feeding. For example, if the risk of death from disease A is X%, you cannot find out how many in the X% are breasting feeding or how many are not.

What do you think, does my idea make sense, but so far so good :) . I don't expect breast feeding is so good. Well, I may have something to share with you guys about breast feeding, I will do it when I have time.

We never owned a crib, our babies slept with us from day one until they were 2-3 years old then went in their own beds (we did the extended breastfeeding too)

I love Dr. Sears. Co-Sleeping was a wonderful time for our family, I miss those days!

Just went to the the co-sleeping page and found out shoppingmama did everything I have said, extending breast feeding, co-sleeping. I am just re-inventing the wheel. Shoppingmama, you are number 1 :), and you are so cool, unlike me that try to warn everybody.

[shoppingmama]

Just went to the the co-sleeping page and found out shoppingmama did everything I have said, extending breast feeding, co-sleeping. I am just re-inventing the wheel. Shoppingmama, you are number 1 :), and you are so cool, unlike me that try to warn everybody.

:) This debate can go on forever and I'm just not going there. My intense research was 10 years ago. I was active in the vaccine awareness community for years and followed the whole attachment parenting ways before I knew what I was doing had a name :D I consulted with parents all over the world who had a child died from vaccines and kids who will forever be vaccine damaged. It was so heartbreaking I had to back away. Vaccines are a billion dollar industry, the vast majority of studies are backed by the manufacturers, the doctors who approve vaccines are stakeholders in the vaccine companies. It never ends. There is no chance in hell that we can ever discover that vaccines do all this damage, can you imagine the implications??? I will bow out because this topic get too emotional because I have seen more vaccine horror stories than any of you will see in a life time...my decision was made years ago and I never once waivered even after exposure to some of these diseases. We all love our kids, research both sides, make an educated decision for yourself.

[gordholio]

My understanding is that if you don't get the required vaccinations, your child will not be allowed into the public school system. They require proof of it, I'm told (maybe Ontario only?).

Shoppingmama, what is your experience with this? Did you home school?

We weren't entirely comfortable with vaccines, either, but did them because of the school issue, and for the 'greater good'. Forgoing them is essentially a selfish decision, your child will still likely be safe from these horrible diseases, but only because every OTHER kid is getting vaccinated for them. If everyone stopped getting them, there would very likely be a resurgence of these old diseases that have been contained for decades. Vaccines are heavily tested, and are quite safe. There is a risk in everything we do, the risk with vaccines is there, but miniscule.

As far as I know, children do not have to have vaccinations to attend school in Ontario.
I believe that the schools will make it seem like they do, but if you press the issue, they don't, which is good for freedom of choice IMHO.
If I had young children, they would not get any vaccinations.
I don't even get the flu vaccine.

[Diamondog]

:) This debate can go on forever and I'm just not going there. My intense research was 10 years ago. I was active in the vaccine awareness community for years and followed the whole attachment parenting ways before I knew what I was doing had a name :D I consulted with parents all over the world who had a child died from vaccines and kids who will forever be vaccine damaged. It was so heartbreaking I had to back away. Vaccines are a billion dollar industry, the vast majority of studies are backed by the manufacturers, the doctors who approve vaccines are stakeholders in the vaccine companies. It never ends. There is no chance in hell that we can ever discover that vaccines do all this damage, can you imagine the implications??? I will bow out because this topic get too emotional because I have seen more vaccine horror stories than any of you will see in a life time...my decision was made years ago and I never once waivered even after exposure to some of these diseases. We all love our kids, research both sides, make an educated decision for yourself.

On the grand scale of things vacines help far more than they do damage...Yes it is one of the most tragic things if a child is killed or affected negatively in some way but just like anything there are a far MORE amount that it does good for than bad. I still stand by the theory children that do not get vaccinated are kept safe for the most part because of the children who do.

[getmail99]

I still stand by the theory children that do not get vaccinated are kept safe for the most part because of the children who do.

Parents that do not vaccine their children never use your theory.

According to your theory, the parents not vaccinate their children should keep quiet and convince other parents to vaccine so their children get protected. However, it is the other way around, the parents not vaccinate their children try to convince other parents not to vaccinate too :cheesygri .

If the vaccine really works, the parents of the vaccinated children should not care if the other people are vaccinated or not, they are always protected. They should not be so keen to convince other people to vaccine.

However, based on my explanation of your theory above, if the parents always convince other people to vaccine, they might be the ones who are actually not vaccinated and convince other people to vaccine to get protected :D .

Okay, this is a joke :D, no flame. LOL

[getmail99]

:) This debate can go on forever and I'm just not going there. My intense research was 10 years ago. I was active in the vaccine awareness community for years and followed the whole attachment parenting ways before I knew what I was doing had a name :D I consulted with parents all over the world who had a child died from vaccines and kids who will forever be vaccine damaged. It was so heartbreaking I had to back away. Vaccines are a billion dollar industry, the vast majority of studies are backed by the manufacturers, the doctors who approve vaccines are stakeholders in the vaccine companies. It never ends. There is no chance in hell that we can ever discover that vaccines do all this damage, can you imagine the implications??? I will bow out because this topic get too emotional because I have seen more vaccine horror stories than any of you will see in a life time...my decision was made years ago and I never once waivered even after exposure to some of these diseases. We all love our kids, research both sides, make an educated decision for yourself.

You are my idol:!: :) . Probably I get too emotional in this, I should back away too. This debate never ends. I think we said enough. Thanks again, shoppingmama. With your encouragement, I will not be bullied by the doctors again.

[Diamondog]

Parents that do not vaccine their children never use your theory.

According to your theory, the parents not vaccinate their children should keep quiet and convince other parents to vaccine so their children get protected. However, it is the other way around, the parents not vaccinate their children try to convince other parents not to vaccinate too :cheesygri .

If the vaccine really works, the parents of the vaccinated children should not care if the other people are vaccinated or not, they are always protected. They should not be so keen to convince other people to vaccine.

However, based on my explanation of your theory above, if the parents always convince other people to vaccine, they might be the ones who are actually not vaccinated and convince other people to vaccine to get protected :D .

Okay, this is a joke :D, no flame. LOL

No I believe parents who don't vaccinate believe what they are doing is safe. I never said they use this theory....I don't believe they make the decision based on other parents getting their children vaccinated so they think there children will be safe....unvaccinated children are kept safe because of the children who do get vaccinated because there are far more that do and that is what keeps these diseases at bay. Think about it if ALL children weren't vaccinated how would the population be kept safe from these diseases? Would they just disappear from the planet?

[Venusia]

What is the % of kids who get vaccinated and develop a serious illness vs. % of kids not vaccinated who get a disease that could have been prevented by vaccination? If anyone has those numbers I'd be interested.

The daughter of a friend of mine developed bacterial meningitis when she was 2 years old. She nearly died, and was left deaf in both ears. She had no balance and had to relearn to walk and to stand up; luckily she got some sort of implant so now she "hears", but speaks in a slightly robotic way. Seeing what my friend went through, I got full shots for my daughters: the standard ones as well as the newer ones for chicken pox, prevnar, and menjugate.

I never get them a flu shot though, IMO it's not a serious enough illness to warrant vaccination.

[Xax]

This thread got pretty out of hand so I've stayed out of it for a while, but I'm curious to know what the benefit of a chicken pox vaccine is; I've never known chicken pox to be a serious threat.

[CSK'sMom]

Chicken pox complications (usually respiratory) can kill Xax. It doesn't happen very often but it does happen, especially for kids with weakened immune systems. Then if they get chicken pox there is the whole shingles issue. We've been through a 4 yr old with shingles and it wasn't fun. The shingles lasted almost 6 months the first time and 4 months again when she was 5.

[Xax]

Thanks CSK'sMom. :)

[Diamondog]

What is the % of kids who get vaccinated and develop a serious illness vs. % of kids not vaccinated who get a disease that could have been prevented by vaccination? If anyone has those numbers I'd be interested.

The daughter of a friend of mine developed bacterial meningitis when she was 2 years old. She nearly died, and was left deaf in both ears. She had no balance and had to relearn to walk and to stand up; luckily she got some sort of implant so now she "hears", but speaks in a slightly robotic way. Seeing what my friend went through, I got full shots for my daughters: the standard ones as well as the newer ones for chicken pox, prevnar, and menjugate.

I never get them a flu shot though, IMO it's not a serious enough illness to warrant vaccination.

Flu not serious enough? It kills the young and old!

[dulldull]

http://www.the-scientist.com/article/home/52982/

more reading on why vaccines are an important part of our health care arsenals.