Question for Past/Current UFE Writers

[jdso]

For those of you who have written or will write the UFE soon, do you have any opinions on the prep courses given by Densmore or Norgrove or know anybody that has taken either of their courses?

Thx in advance

[charliebrown]

I've been told the teaching style of Densmore & Norgrove are quite different. Not too many people would've gone through BOTH due to cost considerations.

At the end, it's really how you pick up the case writing skills and be able to identify & communicate the key issues

[924elevin]

I went to the Densmore classes last year and found that they really fit my style of studying. They stressed mostly on writing content, how to plan your responses, guidelines on how to study effectively, etc. And they are very, very encouraging. Their cases are not easy, but they aren't impossible either.

My study buddy took the PASS course and they looked like they had a lot more material (they had at least 2 giant binders whereas the Densmore course had only 1 small one) and I've heard that PASS cases are way harder than Densmore ones.

As for Norgrove, where does he teach? At the institute?? I heard that they had revamped the course for 2006 UFE to be more competitive with Densmore and PASS. The only time I've been at a Norgrove session was at the SOA when he gave tips about writing and structure SOA cases.

If you are writing your UFEs this year, I wish you luck!

[jdso]

I went to the Densmore classes last year and found that they really fit my style of studying. They stressed mostly on writing content, how to plan your responses, guidelines on how to study effectively, etc. And they are very, very encouraging. Their cases are not easy, but they aren't impossible either.

My study buddy took the PASS course and they looked like they had a lot more material (they had at least 2 giant binders whereas the Densmore course had only 1 small one) and I've heard that PASS cases are way harder than Densmore ones.

As for Norgrove, where does he teach? At the institute?? I heard that they had revamped the course for 2006 UFE to be more competitive with Densmore and PASS. The only time I've been at a Norgrove session was at the SOA when he gave tips about writing and structure SOA cases.

If you are writing your UFEs this year, I wish you luck!

Densmore seems pretty good from what I've heard.
As for Norgrove I have no idea where he actually teaches. He doesn't have a website a la Densmore. It's just that my firm offers Norgrove for free, but I just wanted to compare to see if I'm able to switch to Densmore on their dollar if I wanted to.

BTW how were Densmore's study materials? Do they give a general overview of how to study, write etc? Maybe I will just take the Norgrove course and purchase all of Densmore's materials.

[trusoulja2g]

Realistically, all the materials get scanned and emailed around amongst people at various firms...so it's easy to get your hands on all the materials from Densmore, Norgrove, PASS, whatever.

As for the course, just go with whatever is free. Or if you're at a larger firm/office, try to lobby them to pay for more than one.

[lmorawie]

Does anybody know where I can get materials that are provided for UFE study from the "big" firms. I have heard that KPMG offers excellent SOA/UFE study materials. I am in a small firm that offers no in-house support. I have seen the SOA stuff from KPMG and it does not compare with the stuff that is provided at the courses (Densmore, PASS, etc.). I am looking for materials similar to KPMG or any other firm (which I do not have) that provides concise to-the-point, here is what you need to know technically and here is how you apply it.

[jcat35]

Hi there I am under PASS but my friends have taken Norsgrove and Densmore. I felt that while PASS does give you lots of material, they do not prepare you well in terms of study schedules and the psychological side of the UFE. I would recommend Densmore or Norsgrove as I heard from my EY friends that Mick adequately prepared them for this year's "changes" in the UFE.

[Gmax]

Hi there I am under PASS but my friends have taken Norsgrove and Densmore. I felt that while PASS does give you lots of material, they do not prepare you well in terms of study schedules and the psychological side of the UFE. I would recommend Densmore or Norsgrove as I heard from my EY friends that Mick adequately prepared them for this year's "changes" in the UFE.

That's why EY's UFE pass rate this year was the lowest among Big 4 :) Norsgrove sessions is a big waste of time as well as his notes. They are just to vague. To me, it is easier to read the whole CICA handbook than his notes...

[I2icky]

That's why EY's UFE pass rate this year was the lowest among Big 4 :) Norsgrove sessions is a big waste of time as well as his notes. They are just to vague. To me, it is easier to read the whole CICA handbook than his notes...

I love people who just spew their opinion as fact.

Firstly, EY did not have the lowest pass rate this year.

Secondly, to be completely honest, simply looking at each firm's UFE pass rate is quite misleading since it doesn't tell you how many people passed the CKE and SOA. For example, a firm could have a 100% UFE pass rate, but only 50% of the original writers wrote since the rest failed the CKE and the SOA.

Thirdly, good luck reading the entire CICA handbook and Assurance Guide, which are 3 solid books each the size of a novel and as thick as a phone book. If you are able to get anything from that just be reading the entire thing (and I'm not talking about referring to it for reference purposes), then it would be a miracle.

Lastly, it really depends on your learning and writing style. I found that Norgrove was really good since he really preps you both mentally and technically, and I like his "no ********" attitude. He tells it like it is and doesn't waste any time since he knows that all you want to do is pass. I find that he is also very knowledgable about the entire process and the intricacies that no one else will know or tell you about due to his relationship with the ICAO.

Of all the instructors, I believe he is the only one who sits down to update the past UFE cases one by one, and provides you with a MARKING KEY outlining what you need to write in order to hit the indicators and in order to pass. Although this is his best guess (since the UFE is an undisclosed exam) I still find it very helpful when studying, and it definitely beats looking at "mock" cases that other people write or the UFE cases posted on the ICAO website since the prior are not real live UFE cases and the latter does not have a marking key and/or may be outdated.

Norgrove is well respected around the profession and the ICAO and for good reason.

[crabby1997]

Does anybody know where I can get materials that are provided for UFE study from the "big" firms. I have heard that KPMG offers excellent SOA/UFE study materials. I am in a small firm that offers no in-house support. I have seen the SOA stuff from KPMG and it does not compare with the stuff that is provided at the courses (Densmore, PASS, etc.). I am looking for materials similar to KPMG or any other firm (which I do not have) that provides concise to-the-point, here is what you need to know technically and here is how you apply it.

KPMG does offer very good notes, they give you an extra booklet and CICA summary (it's like coles notes for the UFE!) on top of what Densmore offers. I am sure you can snatch it off a frd who has it... of course, KPMG does say don't share! lol.

[Gmax]

I love people who just spew their opinion as fact.

Firstly, EY did not have the lowest pass rate this year.

I can't tell anything about EY Toronto pass rate, but EY Montreal had very low pass rate this year. This is my personal observations. Please show me any statistics to prove me wrong.

Secondly, to be completely honest, simply looking at each firm's UFE pass rate is quite misleading since it doesn't tell you how many people passed the CKE and SOA. For example, a firm could have a 100% UFE pass rate, but only 50% of the original writers wrote since the rest failed the CKE and the SOA.

we don't have CKE / SOA in Quebec, so cannot comment on this one...

Thirdly, good luck reading the entire CICA handbook and Assurance Guide, which are 3 solid books each the size of a novel and as thick as a phone book. If you are able to get anything from that just be reading the entire thing (and I'm not talking about referring to it for reference purposes), then it would be a miracle.

Norgrove notes are not much smaller than the handbook. Two parts , about 400 pages each :) IMHO, Densmore notes are much more concise (~400 pages) and right to the point

Lastly, it really depends on your learning and writing style. I found that Norgrove was really good since he really preps you both mentally and technically, and I like his "no ********" attitude. He tells it like it is and doesn't waste any time since he knows that all you want to do is pass. I find that he is also very knowledgable about the entire process and the intricacies that no one else will know or tell you about due to his relationship with the ICAO.


Lastly, I think that 95% of preparation comes from doing cases and from proper debriefing. Only by practicing and debriefing one can learn how to write the case and no instructor can teach it during a short course.

[I2icky]

I can't tell anything about EY Toronto pass rate, but EY Montreal had very low pass rate this year. This is my personal observations. Please show me any statistics to prove me wrong.

I can tell you the same thing about Toronto.


we don't have CKE / SOA in Quebec, so cannot comment on this one...

Didn't you know that Toronto is the centre of the universe ;). In all seriousness, I am from Toronto, Ontario has the largest portion of writers and a lot of people are from Toronto on this forum, hence my comments.


Norgrove notes are not much smaller than the handbook. Two parts , about 400 pages each :) IMHO, Densmore notes are much more concise (~400 pages) and right to the point

They are much smaller than the handbook. This is fact. And in my opinion I believe that they are also written in a very condensed and concise manner. Feel free to disagree.


Lastly, I think that 95% of preparation comes from doing cases and from proper debriefing. Only by practicing and debriefing one can learn how to write the case and no instructor can teach it during a short course.

Yes, but you need proper materials in order to debrief, or else you are just wasting your time. If you are telling me that the ICAO answers are better than the Norgrove answers, I would have to disagree, since any sane human being would know that those ICAO answers are perfect answers and no one would be able to write something like that in the time allowed. Furthermore, it's not a very good debriefing material due to its length and inability to pinpoint what you actually need to write in order to pass. Norgrove's answers are direct, straight to the point, tells you exactly what you need to do to hit the indicators; and most important of all, the answers are realistic based on the time constraints.



At the end of the day, which program works for you is really dependent on your learning style. For 99% of the people you wouldn't even be able to choose since you will just take whatever the firm provides you.

[lmorawie]

I know that KPMG and the other "big" firms say don't share, but I am desparate!!! I am a repeat writer and I don't know anybody going through the process right now. Also, I don't have any friends that are the CA profession period that might have contacts. I am even willing to compensate anybody that can provide me with notes. It's the stuff on-top of what Densmore, etc. offers that I need.....and a coles notes for the UFE would be perfect. My frim is just too small & doesn't offer anything, so if anybody can help me get access to the notes, I would greatly appreciate it!!!!!

KPMG does offer very good notes, they give you an extra booklet and CICA summary (it's like coles notes for the UFE!) on top of what Densmore offers. I am sure you can snatch it off a frd who has it... of course, KPMG does say don't share! lol.

Does anybody know where I can get materials that are provided for UFE study from the "big" firms. I have heard that KPMG offers excellent SOA/UFE study materials. I am in a small firm that offers no in-house support. I have seen the SOA stuff from KPMG and it does not compare with the stuff that is provided at the courses (Densmore, PASS, etc.). I am looking for materials similar to KPMG or any other firm (which I do not have) that provides concise to-the-point, here is what you need to know technically and here is how you apply it.

[RastaManMax]

That's why EY's UFE pass rate this year was the lowest among Big 4 :) Norsgrove sessions is a big waste of time as well as his notes. They are just to vague. To me, it is easier to read the whole CICA handbook than his notes...

You're wrong and very misinformed.

Anyway, i think the best way to prepare is to have a study group with people going through different prep courses because they do tend to teach differently. All have their ups and their downs which i won't go through in detail. The strong points of each are:

1) PASS - Gives you ideas on how to get good form. This is really the key to passing the UFE.
2) Norgrove - Blasts you sideways with technical/quants and gives you a good way to organize your outline.
3) Densmore - Gives you the best summary notes.

The key though is to build a good study group, do your work 9-5 no exceptions and relax. It's really not that bad. CFA and other technical exams are much harder, either you know the answer or you don't. The UFE is a test of nerves, typing speed, determination, technical and good form so if you lack some technical at some points, you're okay as long as you can write creatively.

[waljo88]

I would grab a job if it becomes available in this market. The big 4 seem to be laying off whenever possible. And the people at the small firms are not leaving.

This is making it difficult to grab a job all along the food chain.

If anyone knows of a small/mid size firm that is hiring in the greater Toronto area. Please PM me, I would greatly appreciate your help.

[grappos13]

KPMG does offer very good notes, they give you an extra booklet and CICA summary (it's like coles notes for the UFE!) on top of what Densmore offers. I am sure you can snatch it off a frd who has it... of course, KPMG does say don't share! lol.

hey.. i was there and i personally didnt think it was the greatest notes... as far as what i have from last year... contained handbook summaries for assurance and PM...and some pretty good notes on how to study, debrief, write, etc...so i guess it was decent...

I would grab a job if it becomes available in this market. The big 4 seem to be laying off whenever possible. And the people at the small firms are not leaving.

This is making it difficult to grab a job all along the food chain.

If anyone knows of a small/mid size firm that is hiring in the greater Toronto area. Please PM me, I would greatly appreciate your help.

i am going into the SOA without having a job for the last 3 months... got let go because of the economic times...

if anyone around could help me out with some stuff for the SOA, it would be greatly appreciated.. some notes maybe... or whatever else u can give me... plz and thanks all..

[sardaukar]

i am going into the SOA without having a job for the last 3 months... got let go because of the economic times...

KPMG has been firing first year juniors?! Thought first years were safe in the Big 4...

[grappos13]

i was a second year at the time in january.... they laid off about 10% of GTA audit at the time... i knew of about 5-6 ppl in my group... and ive heard of more ppl getting let go this april as well..