A Career in IT Management - First Steps?

[SwiZz]

I'm turning 22 this year, and I spent the last three years doing Systems Design Engineering at Waterloo, and I struggled through it quite a bit, and the whole time I was there I knew i didn't even like engineering. This past September (2006) I decided to change careers and I switched to Ryerson's IT Management program. One of the reasons was because it had a co-op program, and Waterloo's Co-op program gave me so much great experience that I wanted to do an IT Co-op program.

Anyways, I'm doing reallllllly well in this program. And I find myself enjoying the material a lot more. I just wish I had made the switch a lot earlier.

My question to you guys is, specifically those of you who have careers in IT, is what steps do you feel is really important in starting a career. Is it getting many certifications such as Cisco, or ensuring I get a co-op job at a good company so that I have an opportunity to work there post-graduation, etc. I was planning on doing my first Cisco certification this summer in addition to hopefully finding an IT related job for the summer. I've already worked at BMO (web design), Scotiabank (programmer/analyst), and Nuance Communications (user interface technician) through my co-op terms at Waterloo and so I have some solid work experience so far.

Also, randomly throwing this out there what type of entry year salary do most IT graduates get? Just would like a rough figure to expect.

I'm not saying this part in a cocky way, but I'm a really capable student and a hardworker. The past three years have been so rough, especially after doing so well in school my entire life. But I'm determined to have a very successful career in IT Management and would just like any advice to get off on the right foot.

Any advice/info would be well appreciated. Thanks.

[SwiZz]

also, of the certifications that are available, which would be the first and most useful one to pursue?

[thecharlie]

Hey there,

Being a Computer Science student at Ryerson, I'm sort of the same boat as you. I think getting your certs are very beneficial to your job hunt in the future. For an IT professional, I suggest you start with getting your A+ (it's a nice start to get you rolling for your certifications), then start heading towards Network+, MCSA, and CCNA certifications if you're interested going the Network route. There are tons of certs you can get. I found this site to be very useful:

http://www.techexams.net/

A great community to get your information on your certs.

Good luck

[CharmyPoo]

Personally, I would have stuck through your final two years at Waterloo. I truly believe that a Sys Eng degree from Waterloo is valued much more. I have been impressed with the Sys Eng I work with and we hire a lot of Sys Eng at my Consulting firm. However, since you have made the switch, I would suggest that you focus on getting good co-op experience and hopefully land a job with your last co-op term employer.

[bionicbadger]

If you want to end up in management you have to get at least a few years experience doing the work you will be managing...

[tomincanada]

I'm an IT manager myself right now in a small company - it's really hit and miss how long it can take to become a manager. You'll have to start out programming / network admin or something for a few years and learn some management type skills on the side. In a large company you may get lucky and get the opportunity to lead a few projects and if you do well... perhaps a management position might not take to long.

It really is the luck of the draw as some companies have a lot of personnel movement and roles open up quickly - others don't - I toiled around in small companies for quite a few years without much luck.

As for skills - IT certifications are good for programming/network admin but don't help much for management. I myself have project management training and that is not only very trendy but quite useful and is the kind of thing that looks good on a resume. If you have time & money, get an MBA - that will expedite the process quite a bit but it's a lot of work.

[joo]

There's really a range of IT manager, depending on the type of work you end up doing. Here are two examples:


1. A person that does the key technical work and may supervise a handful (5-10) of staff. A typical path is:

Network Admin / Helpdesk / Developer --> Team Lead --> Manager

Starting salaries would be 30k-50k, ending at 80-90k as manager.


2. A person that leads a larger staff (20+), knows the work but doesn't do much (if any) hands on work. This example is more on the application development side and a typical path is:

Help Desk / Developer --> Snr Developer --> BA --> PM --> Manager
(BA = Business Analyst)
(PM = Project Manager)

Starting salaries would be 30k-50k, ending at 90k-120k as manager

There are many variations, and they depend largely on the organization you're with.
As for certifications, again it depends on the career path you want and the organization - some value certifications and some don't. The larger ones such as banks, do. Small shops that just want the work done, don't.

[llAPll]

Personally, I would have stuck through your final two years at Waterloo. I truly believe that a Sys Eng degree from Waterloo is valued much more. I have been impressed with the Sys Eng I work with and we hire a lot of Sys Eng at my Consulting firm. However, since you have made the switch, I would suggest that you focus on getting good co-op experience and hopefully land a job with your last co-op term employer.

agreed

a sys eng fresh grad would probably get a job paying $50k+....

but then again u really didn't enjoy what u did, so i guess u made the right choice.... i myself hate comp eng, but i'll be graduating in 3 months :cheesygri and the future hopefully looks bright

[tomincanada]

i myself hate comp eng, but i'll be graduating in 3 months :cheesygri and the future hopefully looks bright

Honestly, I can't see how someone will succeed doing something they dislike.

He absolutely made the right choice leaving the program.

[SwiZz]

Thanks for all your comments, suggestions and advice. I'm definitely going to look into taking some of those certification courses when I have the time.

And as for leaving the program. It was a tough decision. I failed my 1B term at Waterloo, and I thought about leaving the program at that time, but I guess you can say its that feeling where you feel you have to prove yourself to everyone, kept me to stay in the program. So I waited the year, passed the term and went on to my 2A term. Although in this term, I struggled quite a bit too. I had 2 math courses, 2 physics courses, and a programming course.

The thing is if I had slacked off in my terms at Waterloo, I would be disappointed in myself. But I busted my ass each term trying to do well, because grades are something I've always been competitive with. But I'm still disappointed I didn't make it past my 2A term. I felt I could have done more, but I guess everyone can always "do more" than they do.

But I didn't like the program. It's a great program, but I never felt interested in what was being taught. Which made studying for it so much more brutal. I didn't care for these fancy schmancy calculus theories they're trying to teach me which I can't ever see myself using in the future.

But now doing IT Management, I LOVED my accounting course last semester. It made so much sense, is so useful to know for the future, and I enjoyed going to lectures and doing the assigned readings. It just makes school a lot more easier if you really enjoy what you're doing.

[llAPll]

but then again u really didn't enjoy what u did, so i guess u made the right choice....

Honestly, I can't see how someone will succeed doing something they dislike.

He absolutely made the right choice leaving the program.

that's what i said too....

but also, i'm sure if u randomly ask people, majority will respond that they dislike their current job... but life is life rite? u gotta do what u gotta do. not every lands a dream job that they enjoy or even love doing.... someone has to pay the rent (mortgage) rite?

[ynchu]

I would say... think about getting a job in IT, then think about getting a job in management. There are experiences you need in order to become successful in management that you just cannot learn at school.

[weedb0y]

that's what i said too....

but also, i'm sure if u randomly ask people, majority will respond that they dislike their current job... but life is life rite? u gotta do what u gotta do. not every lands a dream job that they enjoy or even love doing.... someone has to pay the rent (mortgage) rite?

Thats why its critical to be in what you will do and like to do everyday of your life. Rent/mortgage can be paid either way, you cant escape it.

[thecharlie]

I agree as well. I'm currently finishing up my Computer Science degree. I've hated the program since 2nd year and I know that I am not a right fit for it. I'm finishing as per my parents request. After this however, I'm pursuing Law, which is actually my first choice to begin with. I hope it works out. But definitely, go into what you love. There will always be ways to pay the bills. You wouldn't want to get into something and regret it for the rest of your life.

[TenzoR]

I agree as well. I'm currently finishing up my Computer Science degree. I've hated the program since 2nd year and I know that I am not a right fit for it. I'm finishing as per my parents request. After this however, I'm pursuing Law, which is actually my first choice to begin with. I hope it works out. But definitely, go into what you love. There will always be ways to pay the bills. You wouldn't want to get into something and regret it for the rest of your life.

your parent wanted you to do Comp Sci instead of Law? well that's a first ...

[thecharlie]

your parent wanted you to do Comp Sci instead of Law? well that's a first ...

I was in my 2nd year when I decided I didn't like it, and my parents told me they wanted me to finish the degree, since I was almost half way through it. I was mostly my fault though. I failed to make a decision in highschool for what I wanted to apply to, and decided on Comp Sci instead of Law last minute due to the fact that most of my friends were going into the same field. Biggest regret ever.

[Alienxx45]

Thats the issue with alot of kids coming out of highschool that are left with making a choice of what career field they want to be later on in life.
Like me, i had interest in computers/software so i went into comp programming in college. And by year 2, i knew i didnt like it but didnt really know what else to get into so i finished it. Now that i'm done...i do have an IT job..(not programming) but still really want to get back to school to get into another field of work and probably will be in the coming year..just hope its not too late!


I was in my 2nd year when I decided I didn't like it, and my parents told me they wanted me to finish the degree, since I was almost half way through it. I was mostly my fault though. I failed to make a decision in highschool for what I wanted to apply to, and decided on Comp Sci instead of Law last minute due to the fact that most of my friends were going into the same field. Biggest regret ever.

[Muncher]

I've been in IT mgt for over 20 years. One thing I'd like to advise is, look at the number of job postings in India for IT, identify what these are, and then DON'T go into that specialist field.

There are tens of thousands of IT jobs moving offshore daily, just be careful ...

[Alienxx45]

What would u say that are positions that will rarely be moved offshore? or might "bloom"..?

I've been in IT mgt for over 20 years. One thing I'd like to advise is, look at the number of job postings in India for IT, identify what these are, and then DON'T go into that specialist field.

There are tens of thousands of IT jobs moving offshore daily, just be careful ...

[Muncher]

The ones that usually remain here are project managers (can transfer to non-IT job) and IT architects, and some business analysts, IT marketing and sales.

Jobs that go out from Canada are call centre, tech support (except hardware support), programmers, systems analysts, testers, project leads.

Check out the sites for the following companies and see what they're hiring in India to give you a better idea.

IBM
iGate
Wipro
Infosys
Tata

[weedb0y]

IT Sales and Marketing, Disti Marketing, Support. Anything that you have to be interactive about.

Accounts Managers
Product Managers
Sales Managers
Vendor Marketing

[siriuskao]

The ones that usually remain here are project managers (can transfer to non-IT job) and IT architects, and some business analysts, IT marketing and sales.

Jobs that go out from Canada are call centre, tech support (except hardware support), programmers, systems analysts, testers, project leads.

Check out the sites for the following companies and see what they're hiring in India to give you a better idea.

IBM
iGate
Wipro
Infosys
Tata
well it's unlikely that a new grad can get hired as PM or IT architect. they still have to start as programmers, tech support, tester

[Freak]

There's really a range of IT manager, depending on the type of work you end up doing. Here are two examples:


1. A person that does the key technical work and may supervise a handful (5-10) of staff. A typical path is:

Network Admin / Helpdesk / Developer --> Team Lead --> Manager

Starting salaries would be 30k-50k, ending at 80-90k as manager.


2. A person that leads a larger staff (20+), knows the work but doesn't do much (if any) hands on work. This example is more on the application development side and a typical path is:

Help Desk / Developer --> Snr Developer --> BA --> PM --> Manager
(BA = Business Analyst)
(PM = Project Manager)

Starting salaries would be 30k-50k, ending at 90k-120k as manager

There are many variations, and they depend largely on the organization you're with.
As for certifications, again it depends on the career path you want and the organization - some value certifications and some don't. The larger ones such as banks, do. Small shops that just want the work done, don't.

Your descriptions above are bang on...I'm actually person one you describe above. I'm working at large financial institution and in 9 years I have gone through a wide range of positions and am now a technical team lead (managing 6 staff). To be totally honest you just have to get into a good company and work your butt off...that's what I did...and now I am 30 and extremely satisfied with my career.

Again...just want to re-state it...your decriptions above are exactly the truth...basically word for word!

[Alienxx45]

What type of education would more likely to be lead into Person#2?

[chrome_dout]

Probably a good or decent business degree would be the way to go for person 2. But it's not always the case, I have a neurosci/bio degree from U of T and I work at bank in software QA, moving towards a lead role. For me it was how well I can adapt with learning, and my ability to work with a team.

[Dryluck]

I think I can offer some advice that is at least school-specific, since I am in the same program as you. I'm a 4th year ITM co-op student, currently in my 4th work term. Sorry, for those that can't use this advice, it's more if not all directly focused on the OP's situation.

I'm glad that you enjoy the program so much. The good thing about our program is that they make an effort to teach things that are relevant today. If you look at our course calendar they split off our course requirements according to the new program (re-hauled fall 2006) and the old program.

Determine what stream (and what minor, if you wish to pursue one) you want to go for. Build your course schedule accordingly. (Caution: There are some courses, especially in the upper years that aren't offered regularly, if at all. ITM510: Advanced Applications Development hasn't been offered for 4 years.) There are a couple gem courses: I believe there are two SAP courses, after which you can apply for this two week intensive SAP course and get some special recognition of some sort?

To get into co-op:
Two cut-offs: (In this order)
1. GPA cut-off (Usually a 3.X where x < 4) - Submission of 1st year marks and the first half of 2nd year marks. Once you're in keep your gpa above 2.8 to stay in co-op.

2. Interview - I think you'll do fine here. You've been interviewed for jobs before. The only people I know that got cut out here were people who had really really dumb mistakes (ie. spelling mistake on resume.)

Co-op jobs:

The majority are banking jobs: RBC, TD, CIBC.
Other Companies: GSK, Siemens, GTAA, TTC, Kraft, CIBC Mellon (it's not cibc!), RIM, OPG, Exxon-Mobil, Dell, Environment Canada, some small companies hire a co-op now and then. That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

If you want to play the truly safe route, RBC tends to hire a lot of their co-ops for full-time work. Work there at least one of your work-terms and you would be a shoe-in for future full-time work.

I wish I could give you advice in terms of the industry, but I'm still learning as well! Good luck!

[weedb0y]

Btw, ITM isn't the only program in undegrad programs.

UofT's DEM (Digital Enterprise Management) under CCIT and Rotman Affiliation.
I believe York has a E-commerce related program as well
I know Waterloo has a similar program in place as well.

[joo]

What type of education would more likely to be lead into Person#2?

BSc in Computer Science or Computer Engineering is the best bet.
Mathematics is also good.

There are some that get by with an engineering degree (EE or ME) but I've found that these folks don't have the software algorithm expertise needed in complex situations. I once had an engineer 'invent' binary search and the guy thought he had invented the wheel and would be rich.

The college diplomas and management programs might get you to a PM level but beyond that your lack of a BSc becomes a competitive dis-advantage when it comes to promotions.

[llAPll]

BSc in Computer Science or Computer Engineering is the best bet.

i agree...

I once had an engineer 'invent' binary search and the guy thought he had invented the wheel and would be rich.

i hope this guy wasn't CE/EE...

[rilhouse]

try to get a job as a BA first & bypass the support/network admin jobs unless you want to be a technical person.

i don't see cisco/MS certs being useful if you intend to go into management.

[SwiZz]

try to get a job as a BA first & bypass the support/network admin jobs unless you want to be a technical person.

i don't see cisco/MS certs being useful if you intend to go into management.

Is there well-known business certifications or well-known business courses out there I could take to improve my business skills? Like well-reputable project-management training, and things like that. And if any of you have taken similar things to that, what schools/places would this be available?

Like things I could do over the summer, while working.

[thecharlie]

Is there well-known business certifications or well-known business courses out there I could take to improve my business skills? Like well-reputable project-management training, and things like that. And if any of you have taken similar things to that, what schools/places would this be available?

Like things I could do over the summer, while working.

Hrmm..there's the PMP (Project Management Professional) certification. You can find more details at:

www.pmi.org

I believe Ryerson also has a certification program done through CE. There's an ITM path that you may be interested in. The program is found here:

http://ce-online.ryerson.ca/ce/calendar/default.asp?section=program&sub=cert&cert=PROMAN00&mode=program

I'm not quite sure if it prepares you for the PMP cert. You should ask the CE office for more information on that.

[Alienxx45]

Sorry to hack the thread but i didnt want to start another one with the similar topic...

i graduated in computer programming(college) last year, now working a tech IT job. I'm convinced that i should go back to school to get a degree as my advancement in my current job might be limited if i dont. I'm just not really sure which degree is the way to go. At first i was interested in ITM, but after talking to friends that graduated from that program it doesnt seem like that is the way for me. It seems like a great program but the emphasis on deeper knowledge in programming has me worried since you can say i'm more than burnt out on programming and would not like to concentrate down that path. I'm more interested in looking for a more IT Business related area to continue. The schools i'm looking at are York, Ryerson and UT. Any suggestions on programs that i should look in to?