Need Advice to battle Traffic Offence Ticket - Disobey Stop Sign

[Hitman47]

Hello folks, I just got a traffic offence ticket for 'Disobey Stop Sign - Failing to stop at Stop sign' for $110, I've tried to talked my way out because I'm a distressed university student.

The cop who gave me the ticket and he said "I have no choice but to give you a ticket even though you have a clean driving record, because it's part of my job and we're doing a campaign against aggressive drivers lately. But I might not show up at the court for your trial" I think he suggested me to appeal and go with the trial option.

Now I have 3 options: 1) Plea Guilty 2) Plea Guilty w/i an explanation at court OR 3) Trial option. Anyways, I need advice on which option 2 or 3 to go with. I also don't want to pay hefty fees for traffic paralegal in which I believe I can represent myself at the court nor do I want to pay for $110 charge. :razz:

Pls help me out and tell me about your experience and how you successfully appeal at the court and didn't get deduct any demerit points and make payment. Thanks!

[Whitedart]

The cop who gave me the ticket and he said "I have no choice but to give you a ticket even though you have a clean driving record, because it's part of my job and we're doing a campaign against aggressive drivers lately. But I might not show up at the court for your trial" I think he suggested me to appeal and go with the trial option.


Are you guilty of failing to stop?

[Hitman47]

Are you guilty of failing to stop?

I think, the cop wrote down "Disobey Stop Sign - Fail to Stop" so I assumed I failed to stop at the Stop sign, but I pulled over right away when he asked me to.

[D-3vil]

you don't really have anything to lose by going to trial... worst case scenario, the cop shows up and you plead guilty, then mention you're a student (most likely with a loan to pay) and the fine should get reduced (though you may still get the points added to your record). Best case scenario, charge gets dismissed.

Courts in Toronto are also pretty backlogged at the moment, and chances are you'll receive your trial notice in about 6-8 months' time, scheduled over one year away from the offense date, at which point you'll just have to fill out some paperwork and show up in court to get it dismissed.

[Hitman47]

you don't really have anything to lose by going to trial... worst case scenario, the cop shows up and you plead guilty, then mention you're a student (most likely with a loan to pay) and the fine should get reduced (though you may still get the points added to your record). Best case scenario, charge gets dismissed.

Courts in Toronto are also pretty backlogged at the moment, and chances are you'll receive your trial notice in about 6-8 months' time, scheduled over one year away from the offense date, at which point you'll just have to fill out some paperwork and show up in court to get it dismissed.

Thanks for the advice, I guess I'm going to represent myself at court, do u recommend a traffic paralegal?

[virgoan]

do u recommend a traffic paralegal?

for a $110 ticket?? hell no

[D-3vil]

do u recommend a traffic paralegal?

Not really... You can cut any deal with the prosecutors that they would in the first place, so it's a waste of money.

Unless you're extremely uncomfortable fighting this on your own, of course.

[jekku1]

worth fighting!
i got let off my 'failure to stop at a stop sign"
the cop told me that he might not be there, but showed up anyway. Told the judge I thought i stopped, and that it was an industrial area (both are true). He asked if i want to swear that this is true, and i said yes, and he let me off.
btw... with 2 tickets your insurance will go up... don't wait for the 2nd ticket to fight!

good luck

[ES_Revenge]

The cop who gave me the ticket and he said "I have no choice but to give you a ticket even though you have a clean driving record, because it's part of my job and we're doing a campaign against aggressive drivers lately. But I might not show up at the court for your trial" I think he suggested me to appeal and go with the trial option.
To me, it sounds like the police office was kinda giving you a nudge/wink that he would not show up. Either that or he's doing the exact opposite and making it a point to show up just to screw you.

If it's the former you're lucky and you'll get off with nothing.

As nice as that may be I suggest you actually stop at stop signs from now on as it only takes 1 second of your time and it's the law. Really how much of a hassle is it to actually come to a complete stop there for ONE second rather than slowing down and being cool and driving through? I mean if you think it's fine to do that, keep doing it but the next time the cop might not be as nice/you might not be as lucky. Think about it... Is one second of your time worth saving $110 and possibly another thousand more from insurance increases?

As for the issue at hand, given what the cop said, I'd plead not guilty/request a trial and hope he isn't actually trying to screw you as I mentioned.

[Hitman47]

Honestly, I didn't see the stop sign, because a big tree was blocking the stop sign, so thats why I didn't stop, otherwise I would have done so to save myself some $$$, so i can spend on deals at RFD. I figured I can't trust the cop anyways, so I'm gonna hire a paralegal to fight this case. Any good paralegal u guys recommend that guarantee a victory at court? Thanks for your advice folks.

[gq_fuzion]

Courts in Toronto are also pretty backlogged at the moment, and chances are you'll receive your trial notice in about 6-8 months' time, scheduled over one year away from the offense date, at which point you'll just have to fill out some paperwork and show up in court to get it dismissed.

for sure
even a parking ticket.... been 8 months already and no court date
i parked legally so i'm fighting in for sure... but its taking forever to receive my court date... so for sure i'm using that as a defense...

gotta receive your trial date in a timely manner as stated by law

[Alvito]

you didnt stop at all? thats dangerous, go take a picture of the tree thats in the way though.


was this during the night or day? are there street lamps on that street?

[gfunk333]

Hello folks, I just got a traffic offence ticket for 'Disobey Stop Sign - Failing to stop at Stop sign' for $110, I've tried to talked my way out because I'm a distressed university student.

The cop who gave me the ticket and he said "I have no choice but to give you a ticket even though you have a clean driving record, because it's part of my job and we're doing a campaign against aggressive drivers lately. But I might not show up at the court for your trial" I think he suggested me to appeal and go with the trial option.

Now I have 3 options: 1) Plea Guilty 2) Plea Guilty w/i an explanation at court OR 3) Trial option. Anyways, I need advice on which option 2 or 3 to go with. I also don't want to pay hefty fees for traffic paralegal in which I believe I can represent myself at the court nor do I want to pay for $110 charge. :razz:

Pls help me out and tell me about your experience and how you successfully appeal at the court and didn't get deduct any demerit points and make payment. Thanks!

if the court date is booked more than 8 month after the incident, go see the justice and ask for the ticket to be thrown out....... as it is denying your right to a fair and justifiable trial. i.e. you forgot the facts related to the incident, memory is blurry, lost evidence, <-- insert more bull$h!T here. Longer than a year, it should automatically get thrown out.

If your court date is booked within 8 month, heres what might happen:

1) cop do no show up, thrown out
2) prosecutor cuts deal with you, cuz he wants a good rap sheet
3) prosecutor knows cop won't show up, and tries to cut you a deal cuz he wants a conviction
4) cop shows up and you don't cut a deal, and you present your case. Insert more bull$h!t.

In the real world #4 rarely happens.

You have nothing to lose, the court fee is already included in your ticket. The worse that can happened is you get convicted, which is equal to paying your ticketed or not paying your ticket on time ... i.e. pleading guilty

To increase your chance of not having the cop show up ....... call in and CHANGE your court date (yes you can do this, many do not know about it. its an old trick).

Usually what happens is the court will book a date for the officer to come in, and book all his cases on the same day. To save the pig a few trips here and there (we all know how busy they are at the local Krispy Kream). So when the cop shows up, his dealing with like 10 - 20 tickets of his tickets on that day.

When you change the court date you are screwing up the system. And your odds are very good that the officer won't show up on your court date..... if he only has to see you or a few people. Cuz they usually go in about once a month.

I worked in para legal for 2 summers, back when I was in university. And you wouldn't believe some of the charges that I've seen getting thrown out (redlights, reckless, dangerous, wrong way) simply because the court are so backed up.

Need any more advice, or some good defenses if god forbid you actually do have to present yourself to the justice...... Just ask :D

[gfunk333]

for sure
even a parking ticket.... been 8 months already and no court date
i parked legally so i'm fighting in for sure... but its taking forever to receive my court date... so for sure i'm using that as a defense...

gotta receive your trial date in a timely manner as stated by law

Yup. Its in the Charter of Rights. They are denying your right to a fair and justifiable trial by dragging this thing on beyond a just and reasonable time period. 8 month hah? :D Read my post above.

[hwoarang]

Honestly, I didn't see the stop sign, because a big tree was blocking the stop sign, so thats why I didn't stop, otherwise I would have done so to save myself some $$$, so i can spend on deals at RFD. I figured I can't trust the cop anyways, so I'm gonna hire a paralegal to fight this case. Any good paralegal u guys recommend that guarantee a victory at court? Thanks for your advice folks.

whats the point of asking for advice when you dont follow it anyways. i mean, ppl here already told you not to get paralegal, and you're deciding to anyways. paralegal cant guarantee you a victory

if cop doesnt show up, you win, paralegal or not
if cop does show up, paralegal cant guarantee you a win, and you pay the fee anyways.

[paullyn59]

Why do the cops not show up?

[iluvmikeharris]

As nice as that may be I suggest you actually stop at stop signs from now on as it only takes 1 second of your time and it's the law. Really how much of a hassle is it to actually come to a complete stop there for ONE second rather than slowing down and being cool and driving through? I mean if you think it's fine to do that, keep doing it but the next time the cop might not be as nice/you might not be as lucky. Think about it... Is one second of your time worth saving $110 and possibly another thousand more from insurance increases?

I agree, I always stop. I get several people leaning on their horns when I do so because it's so out of the ordinary and they weren't prepared to sop behind me. It's hilarious.

[ES_Revenge]

you didnt stop at all? thats dangerous, go take a picture of the tree thats in the way though.


was this during the night or day? are there street lamps on that street?
Doesn't matter if you didn't see the stop sign. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse. You'd likely have to prove several things in order to get away with using a defence of "I didn't see it". First the sign would probably have to be completely missing and/or completely obscured to the point where any reasonable person would not be able to see it without getting out of the car and moving some object or actually searching for it. Also you'd proabably have to never have visited that area (i.e. prove the you're from a different city or something, never lived near there and never passed through that intersection or never remember doing so).

Still, the court/JP can decide (perhaps based on the very same pictures you provide as your evidence) that you knew or ought to have known that there was a stop sign there. For example a 4-way with stop signs at 3 sides but not yours would dictate that you should know there's actually a stop sign there. There are intersections where some "ways" stop and the other goes right through but pretty much never when 3 other ways stop at a 4-way intersection (exceptions being mall entrances or entrances to other buildings/facilities but not much else). Furthermore, if there is a thick white "stop line" clearly visible on the ground, you're definitely getting nailed as regardless of whether there was a sign or not (it could be completely missing) the line on the ground and the intersection means you knew full well there was a stop sign there and didn't stop.

Another example would be if there were no stop signs for the traffic that would intersect you at the intersection--if there are no stop signs for them it might be obvious, in some cases, that you do indeed have a stop sign (despite you "not seeing it"). Obviously not everywhere has a stop sign and yielding the right-of-way does not require stopping if there is no right-of-way to yield (no traffic) but based on the picture it might be easily seen that you, as a reasonable person/driver, ought to have known there was a stop sign there.

So your obscured stop sign picture can just as easily screw you, if you're not careful. Not saying it necessarily will, but simply put ignorance is not a defence and if the JP thinks it's reasonable that you should have known a stop sign was there, you're not going to get off with a "I didn't see it" defence.

[mdc]

Tell the Justice of the Peace that you were so drunk that you didn't see the stop sign ... how can they fault you for that ....

[cliff]

keep in mind some paralegals consider reducing the # of points a win, even if you are convicted of a lesser charge. Insurance companies don't care about the # of points only the # of convictions (unless major/criminal/serious).

[Alvito]

Doesn't matter if you didn't see the stop sign. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse. You'd likely have to prove several things in order to get away with using a defence of "I didn't see it". First the sign would probably have to be completely missing and/or completely obscured to the point where any reasonable person would not be able to see it without getting out of the car and moving some object or actually searching for it. Also you'd proabably have to never have visited that area (i.e. prove the you're from a different city or something, never lived near there and never passed through that intersection or never remember doing so).

Still, the court/JP can decide (perhaps based on the very same pictures you provide as your evidence) that you knew or ought to have known that there was a stop sign there. For example a 4-way with stop signs at 3 sides but not yours would dictate that you should know there's actually a stop sign there. There are intersections where some "ways" stop and the other goes right through but pretty much never when 3 other ways stop at a 4-way intersection (exceptions being mall entrances or entrances to other buildings/facilities but not much else). Furthermore, if there is a thick white "stop line" clearly visible on the ground, you're definitely getting nailed as regardless of whether there was a sign or not (it could be completely missing) the line on the ground and the intersection means you knew full well there was a stop sign there and didn't stop.

Another example would be if there were no stop signs for the traffic that would intersect you at the intersection--if there are no stop signs for them it might be obvious, in some cases, that you do indeed have a stop sign (despite you "not seeing it"). Obviously not everywhere has a stop sign and yielding the right-of-way does not require stopping if there is no right-of-way to yield (no traffic) but based on the picture it might be easily seen that you, as a reasonable person/driver, ought to have known there was a stop sign there.

So your obscured stop sign picture can just as easily screw you, if you're not careful. Not saying it necessarily will, but simply put ignorance is not a defence and if the JP thinks it's reasonable that you should have known a stop sign was there, you're not going to get off with a "I didn't see it" defence.

Take it easy there. I'm just offering some suggestions for him to consider. chances are trees near the stop sign dont have leaves on them because its winter.

[D-3vil]

if the court date is booked more than 8 month after the incident, go see the justice and ask for the ticket to be thrown out....... as it is denying your right to a fair and justifiable trial.

correct, except nowadays 12 months seems to be the norm, not 8 (for best chances of getting it thrown out). Also, if OP decides to challenge the charge using the Askov ruling, he will have to fill out a notice of constitutional question a minimum of 2 weeks (15 days, IIRC) prior to the trial date.

[ES_Revenge]

Take it easy there. I'm just offering some suggestions for him to consider. chances are trees near the stop sign dont have leaves on them because its winter.

LOL. Nah I wasn't meaning to "attack" your comment more than I was letting him (and others) know that the "I didn't see it" bit doesn't really work. I mean you could have someone looking like this guy --> :cheesygri on his way to court all ready with his "I didn't see it" excuse thinking he's gonna get off and when the JP is done with him he's gonna look like this guy --> >:( LOL.

[Sonbuster]

how can the cop "not show up" aren't they required by law to be there [in court]?

[Hitman47]

ES_Revenger, thanks for the tips dude, also thanks everyone for your advice. I guess I can't use "I didn't see it" excuse at court, well its true I didn't see the bloody stop sign. Now gotta come up w/i some creative defence to use at court.

how can the cop "not show up" aren't they required by law to be there [in court]?

I think the paralegal cut them cops a nice deal for some $$$, talkin about power of corruptions. These pigs waste tax payer's money, just imagine your house is being robbed or your brother is being shot by a gangsta and the meantime these pigs are busy writing tickets to earn their bonuses. Did u know that large part of their bonuses come from traffic/parking ticket revenues? My buddy is a parking enforcement deputy, and the policy is he has to give out 25 tickets daily before ending it a day of work. :mad:

[magicray]

I dont want to hijack your post! Just a quick question.

I was speeding 70 at a 50 zone - cop gave me a 15 clicks over. This is my second ticket with this type of speeding. (Richmond hill area) - should I fight it?

[Bumba]

Just my 3 cents,

any conviction will effect you insurance premium for 3 years from a date of conviction. Therefore if you are not willing to pay through your nose for insurance, you have no choice but to fight it in court. Some insurance companies will slam 10-25% insurance premium increase for a second ticket.

No points (deal at the court) will do little four you. If you plead guilty to the charge this will count against you for insurance purposes.
Cops do lie, mislead to make life easy for them self, do not really on them for advice regarding you rights.

[Jimbobs]

The more tickets that people fight, the more backlogged the system will be and the longer the delay in bringing cases to trial. So everyone on here should always fight every ticket in the same spirit as PM'ing or searching for any sort of bargain - it's your duty!

Also, remember points have nothing to do with insurance, convictions do. So any time you have the opportunity to fight a ticket, you have some chance of beating a conviction and keeping your insurance costs down.

[ES_Revenge]

I think the paralegal cut them cops a nice deal for some $$$, talkin about power of corruptions.
It's not really corruption more than it is them knowing they have an advantage over you (the inexperienced-in-court layperson) as opposed to a paralegal that does this for a living. And it's not so much the cops as it is the prosecutor. If they know you aren't going to make or aren't likely to make a convincing or effective argument by yourself, they'll stick it to you just because they have that advantage over you. The only party that's there to "protect" you from that is the judge or JP (who is actually supposed to, as part of their duty, provide certain accomodation to someone "representing themselves").

But when you have a paralegal the prosecutor knows he/she is going to be able to ask the right questions and make the right arguments and actually make some points that are effective in the courtroom. So they just bargain it out, and say okay "just plead to this, or we'll drop it to that, or alright drop the charge" or whatever. But just you on your own, they're far less inclined because they know they can stick it to you, LOL.

That's not saying you have to have a paralegal. It is kinda pricey to hire one considering they can't guarantee the ticket is going to go out the window completely. If they only get it knocked down then you could indeed likely do that yourself and save a good bit of money. It's up to you really. In a case like this you do have an argument of sorts (you really didn't see the stop sign) but as I said you just going up there and saying that might not be of any effect. A paralegal might know exactly what's required to get a ticket dropped in that case (that you didn't see the sign) and would be able to help present your evidence properly that way. You might be able to do the same yourself, but you don't really know for sure and it could just as easily backfire. So it can go either way, but on your own it's more of a surprise I guess, lol.

Court is a game, even for small regulatory offences like traffic offences. If you don't know how to play the game or can't play it well, your opponents are certainly going to take advantage of that to beat you.