Toronto to charge 25c Levy per Plastic Bag, or consider Full Ban - your thoughts?

[Jon Lai]

Personally, I don't consider a full ban but a 25 cent levy is totally reasonable. I think we're all used to using boxes as No Frills nowadays, no?

For so many years I've said "NO" to plastic bags for buying small items, ie, a pack of dvds at Futureshop or something.

[sti571]

I sure hope not. What am I going to use for lining waste baskets and carrying my lunch lol :) I needs my yellow No Frills bag!

[frankcow]

While I think it's a noble idea, I think $0.25 is too steep. Maybe $0.10 would be acceptable

[abu_sme]

It's a strange thing, but it is hard to tax something that is given away for free. Case in point: Chicago banned the sale of FOis Gras, so in protest restauranteurs gave it away for free.

[NDman]

Few months ago, I would have said this is very steep, and borderline silly. But here in Austria, and a lot of other countries in Europe, you just don't get plastic bags unless you buy them at the cashier (about €0.25 per bag). Heck, even IKEA doesn't give away any bags here. It makes people a lot more concious about plastic bag usage and it's great. People carry basket, linen bags, back packs as what I usually do, for grocery shopping whether you are 25 or 55 years old.

That said though, full ban is stupid because there are times that you'll need plastic bags

[Becks]

I think there should be a refund deposit on cigarette butts! That crap is littered everywhere.

[hyperion]

I'd support this on a province or even national level. Plastic bags are everywhere.

[MrDisco]

i think its a great idea. reducing our consumption is the way to go.

[hightechfan]

I think there should be a refund deposit on cigarette butts! That crap is littered everywhere.

The same can be said about gum/pop cans etc.We have a big probleam with pop cans.

[circa76]

I'm all for it.. plastic grocery bags are WAY to plentiful.. they get abused like crazy.. but those clear plastic bags that you put vegetables or meat in have to stay obviously.. and garbage bags too.. coz we still need to throw out our garbage!

hmm.. the only thing is.. what am I going to line my waste baskets with? At 25 cents a bag.. that adds up rather quick.

[mok86]

lol i def use grocery bags for greenbin....

[x86asm]

I sure hope not. What am I going to use for lining waste baskets and carrying my lunch lol :) I needs my yellow No Frills bag!

Exactly. I use the bags to line up my garbage bins and carry stuff around! I recycle! 5c is bad enough already :lol:.

[jayk]

I would be in full support of this.

We have way too much garbage these days.

[rabblerouser]

I think it would be a good idea. I have garbage bags of plastic bags at home. I usually refuse them now.

[ferkel]

where do you hear this 25cent levy? are you making that up?
this would be impossible to enforce... theres more important things to fix like the overpackacking of goods... and the city is worried about a few garabge bags... what jokers.

[slippy]

i love it
people waste bags
my mom is a bag freak, she takes so many argh

[hightechfan]

where do you hear this 25cent levy? are you making that up?
this would be impossible to enforce... theres more important things to fix like the overpackacking of goods... and the city is worried about a few garabge bags... what jokers.

It more then a few garbage bags.Toronto has apop of about 4 million if everyone puts out 2-6 bags thats alot.

[Jon Lai]

where do you hear this 25cent levy? are you making that up?
this would be impossible to enforce... theres more important things to fix like the overpackacking of goods... and the city is worried about a few garabge bags... what jokers.

Since you wanted to read more...

http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_6867.aspx

What else is more important than the enviornment, might I ask? You're breathing your own dump if we don't start fixing problems NOW.

I agree with previous posters, we should do this on a national level. A lot of countries have done this already and I don't see why Canada can't. It could ring up a lot more tax income at the same time and have the money be put on lowering greehouse gases.

Then, we can say "fcuk you Americans we have lower emissions now!"

BTW I remember that the government discussed a similar situation with TIM HORTONS CUPS. Was that the reason why Timmies have been increasing their prices?

[hightechfan]

I think ottawa will aslo be doing this very soon.

[gman]

where do you hear this 25cent levy? are you making that up?
this would be impossible to enforce... theres more important things to fix like the overpackacking of goods... and the city is worried about a few garabge bags... what jokers.

This is very easy to enforce. The stores need to buy the bag. The money is charged when they order the bags. If the store prefers to pay that $.25 for the customer, I guess it is okay too.

[UrbanPoet]

thats a great idea...
Its not so bad carrying around your own Baack pack.. u can fit alot of stuff in there!

[HighFlyer]

Sure, this should be done now.

I find it much easier to carry the groceries by boxes.... from the cart to the car to the house.

[Jon Lai]

Sure, this should be done now.

I find it much easier to carry the groceries by boxes.... from the cart to the car to the house.

Agreed, I'm so used to using boxes from No Frills already!

[gman]

I don't even waste a box from No Frills. ;)

[Cruel_Angel]

Great idea. I like the idea of that 99 cent shopper bag dominion has.

[penipitcher]

I'm all for it, but for things like fish or other produce that's 'wet', it'd be better to use clear plastic bags before you put it in your reusable totebag.

As well, What am I going to line my waste baskets with if it becomes a full ban?

[crimsona]

Even at 4 cents at Superstore people decline the bags. This will work, it doesn't take much.

[thelefteyeguy]

yes do it...i don't want him to be re-elected again :mad:

[Impossibles]

This is just a cash grab and a PR move.

They were thinking about doing this in Vancouver a year ago, thankfully it got shot down.

It's a band-aid solution. In parts of europe, plastic bag use went down 90%, but paper bag use went up 1000%.

[UrbanPoet]

Even at 4 cents at Superstore people decline the bags. This will work, it doesn't take much.

i thought i was the only one that cheezes out of paying for 5cent bags.

[ElChico]

I think ottawa will aslo be doing this very soon.

I thought this was a Toronto thing, not a Canada thing? In my city these bags are recyclable, We put the extras in the blue box.

[rfdrfd]

I agree to reduce the use of shopping bags. Whatever method they choose.
Its just a matter of change.

We used to have paper bags before plastic bags became the norm. If we all carry some more of those bio-degradable linen bags (that I see them selling), then we would be using the same bag over n over n over n over.

Plastic doesn't degrade in a landfill for ages. I heard like hundreds of years? Maybe?

And those small clear ones where you put vegetables and fruit in, man those has to be changed NOW. Waste waste waste.

I like it back in HK olden days, wrap a bunch of green onions in a newspaper !!

[Sylvestre]

here's a question - for self-serve check-out, you HAVE to put your stuff in the bag. I tend to carry my own canvas bags and am always told I have to use the plastic bags. So, will those bags be free or will they have to redesign the system? :lol:

[bionicbadger]

What the hell am i supposed to use to pick up my dog poop then?

[cipher]

What the hell am i supposed to use to pick up my dog poop then?


Did a hole in the ground...put dog poop in...cover....

[bionicbadger]

Did a hole in the ground...put dog poop in...cover....

So if my dog poops on your lawn you are ok with me digging a hole in your lawn?

[fenrus]

i'm surprised so many people throw out their plastic bags.

i'm always using them to line garbage bins and what not.

[Jon Lai]

I agree to reduce the use of shopping bags. Whatever method they choose.
Its just a matter of change.

We used to have paper bags before plastic bags became the norm. If we all carry some more of those bio-degradable linen bags (that I see them selling), then we would be using the same bag over n over n over n over.

Plastic doesn't degrade in a landfill for ages. I heard like hundreds of years? Maybe?

And those small clear ones where you put vegetables and fruit in, man those has to be changed NOW. Waste waste waste.

I like it back in HK olden days, wrap a bunch of green onions in a newspaper !!

It takes 400 years, and when it decomposes, it oozes hazardous chemicals to our atmosphere, contributing to global warming.

[Jon Lai]

This is just a cash grab and a PR move.

They were thinking about doing this in Vancouver a year ago, thankfully it got shot down.

It's a band-aid solution. In parts of europe, plastic bag use went down 90%, but paper bag use went up 1000%.

Yea, but if one has to be consumed more, woudl you rather be (almost) undecomposible plastic bags or highly recylable paper bags or reusing boxes from No Frills?

What the hell am i supposed to use to pick up my dog poop then?

Use newspaper? I thought that was what everybody does..

i'm surprised so many people throw out their plastic bags.

i'm always using them to line garbage bins and what not.

THe report says on average each household uses 4 plastic bags per week.

Do you have 4 small garbage cans that get filled up to the top every week?

[eelfliw]

The 25c levy is pure politics. Who ever proposed it is simply trying to appease the environmentalists who supported them during the election. The 25c levy doesn't solve the plastic bag issue. People will still buy it and discard it. This is just a show and a tax grab.

There are already solutions to plastic bag problems. I was at a conference last year in China and they have bio-degradable plastic. This type of plastic is made from corn and will slowly degrade once exposed to UV rays (sunlight). The bag completely degrades in a few months time and simply disappears. This technology is available now. It is more expensive than regular plastic bags. But it would be much better than charging 25c levy or banning the bags altogether.

Politicians aren't here to solve problems. They're here simply to generate hype and get their names thrown around to get ready for the next election.

[gman]

No Frills is charging 5 cents and I never buy one. There is no bag in Costco. The only grocery bag coming in is from T&T but I shop No Frills mot of the time.

Can I give up grocery bag, period? Probably.
Will I buy bag if they charge $0.25 per bag? No.
Will it bother me if they implement that? No.
Do I care if it is a cash grab? No.
Will it bother me if there is no bag (old, paper or new invention) at all? No.

If I have to, I can bring my own bag. In the old days, lady used basket to take grocery home.

[Emancipated]

Can't ban something so essential for an initiative that isn't iron clad. I know we're trying to limit the waste and be earth friendly in the process, but imagine the nightmares of backed up garbage and the summer heat. Remember the strike?

I would say hike the levies and see if it will curtail people's habits. An outright ban at this stage of the pilot would not go over well with residents. I also heard it was $1 a bag.

[Emancipated]

The 25c levy is pure politics. Who ever proposed it is simply trying to appease the environmentalists who supported them during the election. The 25c levy doesn't solve the plastic bag issue. People will still buy it and discard it. This is just a show and a tax grab.

There are already solutions to plastic bag problems. I was at a conference last year in China and they have bio-degradable plastic. This type of plastic is made from corn and will slowly degrade once exposed to UV rays (sunlight). The bag completely degrades in a few months time and simply disappears. This technology is available now. It is more expensive than regular plastic bags. But it would be much better than charging 25c levy or banning the bags altogether.

Politicians aren't here to solve problems. They're here simply to generate hype and get their names thrown around to get ready for the next election.


Sounds like our Mayor, David Miller.

[Anessa]

Miller is too ideological when it comes to the environment. He gets flustered over plastic bags, buys a landfill and won't even given European incineration technology the time of day.

[Rembrandt100]

Miller is too ideological when it comes to the environment. He gets flustered over plastic bags, buys a landfill and won't even given European incineration technology the time of day.

Even if he did give it a chance, his biggest problem is where to put it. Staying within the confines of the city where would you suggest it be built?

Dave

[PrimoTurbo]

Sounds like a stupid idea, it just means people will have to carry bags around all the time. It also means people will have to buy bags to throw out their trash, which means poor people will again be screwed.

Furthermore recycling is a waste of time anyways, as it takes in more energy and pollutes more to recycle a piece of plastic then to throw it away.

[PrimoTurbo]

Also stores will move into using paper bags.

[Jon Lai]

The 25c levy is pure politics. Who ever proposed it is simply trying to appease the environmentalists who supported them during the election. The 25c levy doesn't solve the plastic bag issue. People will still buy it and discard it. This is just a show and a tax grab.

There are already solutions to plastic bag problems. I was at a conference last year in China and they have bio-degradable plastic. This type of plastic is made from corn and will slowly degrade once exposed to UV rays (sunlight). The bag completely degrades in a few months time and simply disappears. This technology is available now. It is more expensive than regular plastic bags. But it would be much better than charging 25c levy or banning the bags altogether.

Politicians aren't here to solve problems. They're here simply to generate hype and get their names thrown around to get ready for the next election.

Doubt it, I don't see why people would still buy bags at 25 cents each. IF they do, and if I had authority, I would raise it to $1. There's no point in using plastic bags anymore when you could use boxes, or bring your own reuseable bags. Heck, use a backpack, that's what I do for school and go across to No Frills :P

I've heard of those corn-based plastic bags. I believe Dominion uses them, but they're the only ones. Loblaws is considering, but the outcome is probably not. Yes, these will be BETTER for the envrionment, but why not get rid of it altogether? I see an eventual need of this in the future, even if we cannot do it all at once. Also, the hard part here is enforcing it - how do you guarantee that all retailers will use biodegradable plastic bags?

You realize that we're suffering from our own garbage. I don't want to have to donate my backyard to be a dump later on.

[Jon Lai]

Even if he did give it a chance, his biggest problem is where to put it. Staying within the confines of the city where would you suggest it be built?

Dave

Agreed. They would have to destroy a park or the rouge valley, which is another no-no for the environment.

If Miller did agree to this, he would still have to "Buy" real estate to do this - perhaps rent Missassauga's facility for pilot?

Sounds like a stupid idea, it just means people will have to carry bags around all the time. It also means people will have to buy bags to throw out their trash, which means poor people will again be screwed.

Furthermore recycling is a waste of time anyways, as it takes in more energy and pollutes more to recycle a piece of plastic then to throw it away.

What's wrong with carrying bags all the time? I have at least 3 bags in the car all the time because I like going to No Frills. Who told you to BUY bags? Use boxes! Bring your own bags! Don't be lazy.

And WTF is this about recycling? Obviously there are more pros than cons, otherwise why are we doing it? I dont' think you really understand the process of recycling and you're just bullsh1tting here - plastic takes 400 years to decompose, and when it decomposes, it leaves toxic chemicals into our atmosphere, contribution to global warming.

[Jon Lai]

Also stores will move into using paper bags.

At least that's something we can recycle.

[gman]

If there is $0.25 levy, consumer can decide if he/she will buy it.
If it is $1, consumer can decide if he/she will buy it.
If nothing changes, consumer are forced to pay for it (because the cost is factored in).
If the store uses new recyclable bags and is still 'free', consumer are forced to pay for more because the cost will be factored in.

May be all stores should operate like No Frills. If you really really wants bags, you pay for it. Otherwise, bring your own bag. The $2 No Frills durable shopping bag does not take too much of space and it is easier to carry than plastic shopping bag.

I would say no free bag. It does not matter if it is plastic, paper or new inventions. Just no free bag.

If this is too extreme, paper bag is fine.

[goffeebeans]

When I heard this on the news a couple days back, it sounded as if it was a levy against the companies to push them to use environmentally friendly alternatives. I remember it being this way, as they were discussing whether or not companies would simply push the cost to consumers or absorb them.

[st7860]

25 cents is stupid when you could(in large quantities) buy a crate of bags for FAR less than that, especially if they aren't 'printed'

[goffeebeans]

25 cents is stupid when you could(in large quantities) buy a crate of bags for FAR less than that, especially if they aren't 'printed'

:confused: so how many people are going to go out and purchase a crate of plastic bags so they can save a bit from not buying the stores plastic bags??? Doesnt make sense at all.

They are more likely to save/re-use their current plastic bags or use a canvas bag/backpack, which is what the levy is trying to encourage.

[gman]

25 cents is stupid when you could(in large quantities) buy a crate of bags for FAR less than that, especially if they aren't 'printed'

That means they will "bring their own bags". Since they will bring their own bags, they probably will bring a durable and re-usable one.

[just_For_ipod]

The 25c levy is pure politics. Who ever proposed it is simply trying to appease the environmentalists who supported them during the election. The 25c levy doesn't solve the plastic bag issue. People will still buy it and discard it. This is just a show and a tax grab.

There are already solutions to plastic bag problems. I was at a conference last year in China and they have bio-degradable plastic. This type of plastic is made from corn and will slowly degrade once exposed to UV rays (sunlight). The bag completely degrades in a few months time and simply disappears. This technology is available now. It is more expensive than regular plastic bags. But it would be much better than charging 25c levy or banning the bags altogether.


There is a problem with this type of plastic, you say they will degrade once exposed to UV rays, but in a landfill as everything gets pilled up, and the bag is 10 meters underground, where does the UV rays (sunlight) come from?

[Jon Lai]

That means they will "bring their own bags". Since they will bring their own bags, they probably will bring a durable and re-usable one.

Agreed, that was the whole point of the levy. Heck, if you want to buy plastic bags in a crate, why dont' you do so yourself? You can absolustly do that everytime you go shopping.. wait, why don't you just reuse the old bags you have lying around?

[Irb]

So how is this levy going to work? So I'm going to be charged $25 cents for every bag of garbage I put out on the street? Fat chance. I'll be dumping my garbage if that happens.

I don't mind paying for plastic bags when I'm out shopping. Either that or just bring my own. Or like others have mentioned, just use boxes like at No Frills.

[gman]

So how is this levy going to work? So I'm going to be charged $25 cents for every bag of garbage I put out on the street? Fat chance. I'll be dumping my garbage if that happens.

I don't mind paying for plastic bags when I'm out shopping. Either that or just bring my own. Or like others have mentioned, just use boxes like at No Frills.

Should be grocery bags only and be charged in the check out.

[Irb]

Should be grocery bags only and be charged in the check out.
That's fine. So how about restaurants? Can customers be charged 25 cents for takeout plastic bags?

[gman]

That's fine. So how about restaurants? Can customers be charged 25 cents for takeout plastic bags?

I don't think so. At least, not in the form of levy. Stores can charge whatever they see fit themselves.

[Jon Lai]

I don't think so. At least, not in the form of levy. Stores can charge whatever they see fit themselves.

A lot of (Asian) stores charge for take out boxes anyways ;)

And I think this could very well be a next step for the envrionment, as styrofoam takes even longer than plastic to decompose - actually, styrofoam doesn't even decompose AT ALL.

Personally, I usually bring out a take out box if I know I'm going to be packing something for lunch when I'm going out for dinner.

[Muncher]

This is a ploy by the garbage bag makers who are not selling their product because we use our plastic shopping bags to throw away our garbage.

And I live in an apartment - so do I throw away my rubbish in a cloth bag? In a paper bag so that all the contents come out as it goes down the shute and causes a big stink?

Surely somebody knows how to recycle them into new bags? Not all of us have the strength to carry a big box of groceries out of Nofrills ...

We're already re-using Nofrills and Foodbasics bags. The guy who suggested the levy has a fat salary and probably never has to take lunch to work.

[st7860]

its quite amusing seeing all the people saying its better to pay for the bags

[gman]

This is a ploy by the garbage bag makers who are not selling their product because we use our plastic shopping bags to throw away our garbage.
Probably Yes.

And I live in an apartment - so do I throw away my rubbish in a cloth bag? In a paper bag so that all the contents come out as it goes down the shute and causes a big stink?
You still can get plastic grocery/garbage bags in other mean. You probably will really really make every bag full (compress it and put as much as possible in each bag) before you dump it.

Surely somebody knows how to recycle them into new bags? Not all of us have the strength to carry a big box of groceries out of Nofrills ...
If you use it as garbage bag, these bags will not be recycle. You can use cloth bag to replace the regular grocery bag when you do grocery shopping.

We're already re-using Nofrills and Foodbasics bags. The guy who suggested the levy has a fat salary and probably never has to take lunch to work.
I use a No Frills cloth bag to bring grocery to my mom's apartment today. I use a milk bag to take lunch to work. I also use the milk bag to stash stuff for green bin.

its quite amusing seeing all the people saying its better to pay for the bags
Because I never pay for it. Not even 1 cent. I shop No Frills and they charge 5 cents per bag. I just don't use it. They can charge even $10 per bag because it won't affect me.

[eelfliw]

For those of you who said they won't pay 25c for a bag... look in the mirror. Look at who you are and remind yourself why you're here. You are a RFD'er. You are not the average Joe. You are a special breed. You wouldn't pay 25c for a bag. Lots of other people will. Just look at all those who pay 16c/km to drive the 407. I never take the 407 unless someone else's paying. But lots of people will take the 407.

Also, for those of you old enough, remember Knob Hill Farms? The cardboard boxes started at 5c. It eventually became plastic bin and I forgot how much. People will pay for something returnable but never return it just because it's convenient. I wonder how many people still have those boxes/bins?

As for degradable plastic bags not degrading in land fills, UV light is only one of the ways the bags degrade. Heat & composting can also make the bags "disappear". Apparently, MEC sells these bags.

[st7860]

i wouldn't pay 25 cents a bag. i would rather buy a case of bags then share them with colleagues and associates

[gman]

For those of you who said they won't pay 25c for a bag... look in the mirror. Look at who you are and remind yourself why you're here. You are a RFD'er. You are not the average Joe. You are a special breed. You wouldn't pay 25c for a bag. Lots of other people will. Just look at all those who pay 16c/km to drive the 407. I never take the 407 unless someone else's paying. But lots of people will take the 407.

Also, for those of you old enough, remember Knob Hill Farms? The cardboard boxes started at 5c. It eventually became plastic bin and I forgot how much. People will pay for something returnable but never return it just because it's convenient. I wonder how many people still have those boxes/bins?

As for degradable plastic bags not degrading in land fills, UV light is only one of the ways the bags degrade. Heat & composting can also make the bags "disappear". Apparently, MEC sells these bags.

Well, if 25 cents cannot stop a lot of people. Make it $1. If $1 does not work, make it $5.

The cardboard box of Knob Hill Farms can be recycled. The plastic bin can be reused for other purpose.

If they can make the degradable plastic bag available without me paying directly or indirectly, that is okay too.

[st7860]

i bet most people here support Al Gore.

[gman]

i wouldn't pay 25 cents a bag. i would rather buy a case of bags then share them with colleagues and associates

You are basically carrying your own bags. That is what this proposal wants.

[Jon Lai]

i wouldn't pay 25 cents a bag. i would rather buy a case of bags then share them with colleagues and associates

Go do that, that's what we want you to do - bring your own bags, don't use new ones.

Well, if 25 cents cannot stop a lot of people. Make it $1. If $1 does not work, make it $5.

Agreed. I'm all for this to happen.

i bet most people here support Al Gore.
WTF is with this off-topic remark? And are you suggesting we should support Bush?

[stuff352]

This is totally stupid...Stores near the edges of toronto will lose a lot of business unless the other municipalities do the same. The counsellor has good intentions but his implementation is not well thought out. It should be the province or the federal government that should put standards on plastic bags. Like others have pointed out that there are bags that are biodegradable and recylcable but these must be done at a provincial or federal level to be effective. Further how will you enforce this stupidity?

[gman]

This is totally stupid...Stores near the edges of toronto will lose a lot of business unless the other municipalities do the same. The counsellor has good intentions but his implementation is not well thought out. It should be the province or the federal government that should put standards on plastic bags. Like others have pointed out that there are bags that are biodegradable and recylcable but these must be done at a provincial or federal level to be effective. Further how will you enforce this stupidity?

Lost a lot of business because of bags? In that case, No Frills should be out of business now.

[stuff352]

I shop at fortinos - there are two about ten minutes away, one is in woodbridge the other is in toronto. I would go to the one in woodbridge if that was the only difference and i am pretty sure some others would as well. I have been to nofrills a couple of times and have always gotten bags (it is only 5 cents) and if everyone was to get boxes there would not be enough boxes.

[DaVibe]

I have a lot of bags in my house through grocery shopping. They do infact get thrown away a lot of the times (especially when milk is double-bagged and its all wet inside). With that said, I try to make an effort to reuse them. We all do, we have a drawer for bags in my house because there's so many.

On the flipside, I work where I'm bagging things from time to time and I can honestly tell you, the problem is not in the company, but in the people's mentality. The lightest things I KNOW will not rip "Can you double bag that?" ... mind you, I'm double-bagging things that I know will rip or I'm trying to help them out, but then I have the same old people who want me to double bag everything, so I really think it lies within the people.

I'd like to see it CHEAPER but honestly if its a huge issue and they want to cut down/make it stop because it's effecting our enviornment, then sure make it $0.25, sounds good to me.

[st7860]

an interesting story for the tree huggers

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/story.html?id=28f13c21-7d5d-4e08-bcae-558e654c7213

Tories' environment policy riles Liberals
BOB RAE: 'They missed the boat on the environment'

Published: Sunday, January 21, 2007
Environment Minister John Baird's third Vancouver-area news conference in 10 days has some critics accusing the Tories of a clumsy hard-sell to build green credibility.

Baird, appointed to the post this month, is to join Premier Gordon Campbell and environmental groups at the Vancouver Museum today for an announcement related to the Great Bear Rainforest.

That follows a Jan. 9 tour of Stanley Park, talks with green groups and a Jan. 18 appearance to contribute $2 million to restoring Stanley Park.

On Friday, Baird helped Prime Minister Stephen Harper announce $1.5 billion to boost Canada's supply of clean electricity from renewable sources like wind, biomass, small hydro and ocean energy.

Liberals have accused the Tories, in general, of rolling out previously idled Liberal policies. But several federal Liberals went further yesterday.

Bob Rae, the former Liberal leadership candidate, attending a party meeting in Surrey, said the Tories are doing "the Baird minimum" on the environment.

"They realize they missed the boat completely on the environment, they missed the boat completely on climate change and have never shown any significant leadership in this area."

Rae was in Surrey with fellow ex-leadership contenders Martha Hall Findlay and Scott Brison meeting B.C. Liberals to gather ideas for the party's next platform.

"[The Tories] are in electioneering mode. They will do and say and announce just about anything," Rae said.

Brison suggested Baird is more interested in "the marketing around the environment, not around the substance of strong environmental policy. They're doing the bare minimum to appear credible on environmental issues."

Rae said the fight for B.C.'s 36 federal seats is extremely competitive.

"Nobody can take it for granted. The election will turn on provinces like British Columbia," said Rae.

"Mr. Harper understands that."

[d_jedi]

I'm not in favour of this idea. $0.25 is too much for a plastic bag. The plan is well-intentioned, but it will cause quite a bit of inconvenience..

A few points:
1) Boxes at No Frills aren't always available (and when they are, some of the boxes are not suitable - with a big hole in the bottom or something..)
2) Paper bags are not as durable
3) There are many uses for old plastic bags (green bin, garbage in apartments, etc.).. what will people use in their place if these bags are not so readily available?

I'd prefer an approach of an educational campaign and encouragement to not use plastic bags where it makes sense.. something as simple as cashiers asking if the customer would rather forgo the bag because of environmental concerns (and perhaps a poster near registers explaining the policy..)..

Edit: And retailers should possibly (don't know enough about them to say definately) be encouraged (or forced) to adopt these "biodegradable" plastic bags..

[stuff352]

How would you enforce a fee per bag?
Who would this fee go to?
How would you stop store owners from abusing this?

Here is a scenerio

I own a small store and decide to purchase a box of bags from mississauga (no fee) but still charge my customers 25 cents per bag. A box has 1000 bags that is 250 per box going into my pocket. I am a smart guy and would buy a few boxes of the official bag (so i do not raise suspision) and the rest from somewhere else. **** i probably could get some counterfit bags. This plan sound like it is going to be a beareaucratic mess that will cost the city lots of money to enforce.

[st7860]

i wonder how many of the tree huggers advocating the 25 cent per bag policy take public transit and/or bicycles to work every day.

[gman]

How would you enforce a fee per bag?
Who would this fee go to?
How would you stop store owners from abusing this?

Here is a scenerio

I own a small store and decide to purchase a box of bags from mississauga (no fee) but still charge my customers 25 cents per bag. A box has 1000 bags that is 250 per box going into my pocket. I am a smart guy and would buy a few boxes of the official bag (so i do not raise suspision) and the rest from somewhere else. **** i probably could get some counterfit bags. This plan sound like it is going to be a beareaucratic mess that will cost the city lots of money to enforce.

I guess:

1. In customer's point of view, it will be enforced in the check out and they should see a purchase item 'bags' in the receipt. If the store does not charge that (I would expect that could happen), the store will pay that out of their pocket.

2. money goes to the city along with the business tax.

3. The chance is the small store will not need to do that. The size is based on the revenue. If the store reaches certain amount of revenue, they will need to do that.

The store will be charged $0.25 per bag when they purchased bags unless they get a permit (for being a small business). When they buy bags, there is a receipt that they will use as expense. If they don't want to report it as expense, that is okay. They are taking a risk to be audit and be punished. The register will have an item for 'bags'. If the customer does not see that on the receipt, some may report that.

Remember that, any store can charge whatever fee they want for the shopping bag TODAY anyway.

[earthman]

a full ban would be too harsh to begin with, but i like the idea of levy of 50cent. (instead of 25c)

[stuff352]

I guess:

1. In customer's point of view, it will be enforced in the check out and they should see a purchase item 'bags' in the receipt. If the store does not charge that (I would expect that could happen), the store will pay that out of their pocket.

2. money goes to the city along with the business tax.

3. The chance is the small store will not need to do that. The size is based on the revenue. If the store reaches certain amount of revenue, they will need to do that.

The store will be charged $0.25 per bag when they purchased bags unless they get a permit (for being a small business). When they buy bags, there is a receipt that they will use as expense. If they don't want to report it as expense, that is okay. They are taking a risk to be audit and be punished. The register will have an item for 'bags'. If the customer does not see that on the receipt, some may report that.

Remember that, any store can charge whatever fee they want for the shopping bag TODAY anyway.


This is a very simplified version of the beaucracy this idea is going cause... we will need enforcement officers too, they will need supervisors, managers etc.

[st7860]

http://www.angelfire.com/wi/PaperVsPlastic/

Conclusion


The making of paper can waste many thousands of gallons of water, as can the recycling of paper. The human and mechanical efforts and costs are very high, not forgetting the physical cost to loggers and those who work around the numerous chemicals. Plastic is, by comparison, efficient and low energy to produce, and, easily and efficiently recycled. Plastic reduces, recycles marvelously, and in that, is reused. After contrasting the efforts behind the making of paper and plastic, it is our unbiased opinion that plastic is indeed more beneficial to the environment, in that it is less harmful. The next time you are asked the dreaded question, "Paper or plastic?", you can answer knowing that you are making the informed choice.

[fozzey]

where do you hear this 25cent levy? are you making that up?
this would be impossible to enforce... theres more important things to fix like the overpackacking of goods... and the city is worried about a few garabge bags... what jokers.

Yes, but I doubt the city could do very much about overpackaging. If they make a bylaw those good will simply not be sold in the city, large companies will not redo things for only one city. That kind of change would have to be at least provincial if not federal.

Meanwhile the city could at least try to enforce the bag issue.

You have to be reasonable with what you ask for.

[gman]

This is a very simplified version of the beaucracy this idea is going cause... we will need enforcement officers too, they will need supervisors, managers etc.

Just implement that in the big chains which will self-managed it. No Frills is already doing that.

[gman]

http://www.angelfire.com/wi/PaperVsPlastic/

Conclusion


The making of paper can waste many thousands of gallons of water, as can the recycling of paper. The human and mechanical efforts and costs are very high, not forgetting the physical cost to loggers and those who work around the numerous chemicals. Plastic is, by comparison, efficient and low energy to produce, and, easily and efficiently recycled. Plastic reduces, recycles marvelously, and in that, is reused. After contrasting the efforts behind the making of paper and plastic, it is our unbiased opinion that plastic is indeed more beneficial to the environment, in that it is less harmful. The next time you are asked the dreaded question, "Paper or plastic?", you can answer knowing that you are making the informed choice.

That is why I asked for no free bag (in the big supermarkets) period.

[Jon Lai]

I'm not in favour of this idea. $0.25 is too much for a plastic bag. The plan is well-intentioned, but it will cause quite a bit of inconvenience..

A few points:
1) Boxes at No Frills aren't always available (and when they are, some of the boxes are not suitable - with a big hole in the bottom or something..)
2) Paper bags are not as durable
3) There are many uses for old plastic bags (green bin, garbage in apartments, etc.).. what will people use in their place if these bags are not so readily available?

I'd prefer an approach of an educational campaign and encouragement to not use plastic bags where it makes sense.. something as simple as cashiers asking if the customer would rather forgo the bag because of environmental concerns (and perhaps a poster near registers explaining the policy..)..

Edit: And retailers should possibly (don't know enough about them to say definately) be encouraged (or forced) to adopt these "biodegradable" plastic bags..

1) Boxes are almost always avaliable at my local No Frills. Plus, not even uses boxes. I almost always have a cloth bag at the back of the car just because for shopping at No Frills.

2) Nobody said paper bags, it's a BETTER alternative environment-wise, but better yet, use cloth bags, use your backpack, etc. Bring it with you whenever you go shopping.

3) Report says an average household uses 4 plastic bags weekly. Does every household have 4 small garbage bins around the house that gets filled to the top weekly? I think not.

An educational campaigne would be extremely hard to enforce, this is kind of the easy way out. Nobody reads posters, and there is nothing against cashiers asking that type of question. Personally, I say I don't want bags for small items, I'll just take it with me.

[mart242]

I read somewhere that the reusable plastic bins that they sell at loblaws and other stores (to be used instead of bags) are worse than the plastic bags themselves because each of them use the equivalent plastic of 1000 plastic bags.

I think that proper training of the cashiers would be a good start: I hate it when they barely pack the bags and you end up with 12 bags for what should take no more than 4 bags... Maybe putting a price on the bags (25 cents) is a good idea. I still use a lot of these bags for my trash at home though..

[gman]

3) Report says an average household uses 4 plastic bags weekly. Does every household have 4 small garbage bins around the house that gets filled to the top weekly? I think not.

It is fairly easy to use more than 4 per week. The garbage in my kitchen alone is about one bag per day and I already try my best to use blue bin and brown bucket (for the green bin stuff). All 3 are in my kitchen. If lucky and I try to live with the stinky smell, the bag for garbage last for 2 days. I also should replace the bag in my brown bucket daily because that even stinks more. 4 plastic bags can be used easily in a matter of 3 days.

The other 4 garbage bins in the other part of the house can last for 1.5 weeks.

[d_jedi]

1) Boxes are almost always avaliable at my local No Frills. Plus, not even uses boxes. I almost always have a cloth bag at the back of the car just because for shopping at No Frills.

2) Nobody said paper bags, it's a BETTER alternative environment-wise, but better yet, use cloth bags, use your backpack, etc. Bring it with you whenever you go shopping.
Ahh.. but herein lies another potential problem.. if people are unable to use plastic bags (either due to a total ban, or just a general unwillingless to be "ripped off" @ $0.25 / bag..) it makes things harder, IMO, for transit users than anyone else..

Why? It's easy to leave a few bags (cloth or otherwise) in your car everyday.. it's a PITA to have to carry that around with you on the bus. And to the extent that this encourages people to use a car when they go out and buy groceries instead of their bike/public transit, it may actually harm the environment more than a few plastic bags (I might very well be really grasping at straws here - but I do think that this is something to consider)..

3) Report says an average household uses 4 plastic bags weekly. Does every household have 4 small garbage bins around the house that gets filled to the top weekly? I think not.
I think on average, probably not..

An educational campaigne would be extremely hard to enforce, this is kind of the easy way out. Nobody reads posters, and there is nothing against cashiers asking that type of question. Personally, I say I don't want bags for small items, I'll just take it with me.
Why would it be hard to enforce? What is the downside to a retailer participating in such a program? I would think - if such a thing were implemented by the city - most retailers would gladly adopt it.. it would reduce their costs (fewer plastic bags = less $$ spent), and make them look good in the eyes of environmentally-minded consumers..

[gman]

Ahh.. but herein lies another potential problem.. if people are unable to use plastic bags (either due to a total ban, or just a general unwillingless to be "ripped off" @ $0.25 / bag..) it makes things harder, IMO, for transit users than anyone else..

Why? It's easy to leave a few bags (cloth or otherwise) in your car everyday.. it's a PITA to have to carry that around with you on the bus. And to the extent that this encourages people to use a car when they go out and buy groceries instead of their bike/public transit, it may actually harm the environment more than a few plastic bags (I might very well be really grasping at straws here - but I do think that this is something to consider)..


If the bags become more expensive, the chance is people will find a way to save money. That will become a habit. If you are on the bus, is the normal grocery bag (with stuff inside) the easiest to carry? I would say a cloth bag or a back pack would be easier.

On Saturday, I folded a cloth bag and it fits in my winter jacket. It is not that big.

[d_jedi]

If the bags become more expensive, the chance is people will find a way to save money. That will become a habit. If you are on the bus, is the normal grocery bag (with stuff inside) the easiest to carry? I would say a cloth bag or a back pack would be easier.
Well, a backpack is the easiest.. but it doesn't hold that much.. cloth vs. plastic? That's a tossup, I think..

On Saturday, I folded a cloth bag and it fits in my winter jacket. It is not that big.
Well, personally.. there is no room (carrying all of my gadgets) in my winter jacket to carry around bag(s) (and what about during the summer?)..

I foresee a backlash (that may or may not make economic sense..), where:

People use their car instead of other means of transportation, because it's easier to carry items home (less chance bags will break, no need to double bag.. save $$).. this may not actually make economic sense, but..
People will eat take out more (avoid going grocery shopping b/c you forgot to bring bags with you..)

Again, I may be grasping at straws here..

[stuff352]

Back in the day knob hill farms used to loan out plastic baskets to carry groceries (i think there was a $ 2 dollar deposit) It was a pretty good system only if you had a car. If you use public transit you get screwed. Now you got more people using cardboard boxes - who is going to pick them up, the recycling guys. Now you have added more cardboard to be picked up by the city. (retailers have the pay for pick up). You will need more people to pick up the extra recyling. It sounds like a simple solution but the logistics behind it do not make financial sense.

[gman]

Well, a backpack is the easiest.. but it doesn't hold that much.. cloth vs. plastic? That's a tossup, I think..

Backpack can be used to hold a few cloth bags. I always put a few garbage bags in my back pack anyway (for different reason).

[Jon Lai]

Back in the day knob hill farms used to loan out plastic baskets to carry groceries (i think there was a $ 2 dollar deposit) It was a pretty good system only if you had a car. If you use public transit you get screwed. Now you got more people using cardboard boxes - who is going to pick them up, the recycling guys. Now you have added more cardboard to be picked up by the city. (retailers have the pay for pick up). You will need more people to pick up the extra recyling. It sounds like a simple solution but the logistics behind it do not make financial sense.

But remember, the cardboard boxes were used during transit of all the products in the store anyways (and in this case, we're talking No Frills). Packaging of this CANNOT be reduced in any way unless done at the federal level. So since the boxes were used up already, you're not paying extra to REUSE them again. Most boxes are in great condition and it would be a shame to have to throw them out before serving a few more purposes first.