Help.Traffic Ticket

[donye]

hi

I got a traffic ticket yesterday.fine $85.Total pay $110 (HTA)

I did a left turn at 9.02am.Officer stopped me and gave me the ticket.He wrote time 8.53 am on the ticket.
The left turn only NOT ALLOWED BETWEEN 7-9 AM.
But i'm sure i did turn at 9.02 am.I can proof it, because i drop off my son at day care at 8.55 am then i come to the intersection at 9.02 am.
I think, thats unfair, the officer stoped me at 9.02 am and gave me the ticket and wrote the time 8.53 am.
How can i be there 8.53 am when i drop off my son at 8.55 am at day care first ,before i go to the intersection ?I can get a letter from daycare that i was there at 8.55 am before i did the left turn.
What can i do? Just pay it or fight it in court?

[parry]

fight it. he must be low on his quota. contact your favorite ticket fighters or do it yourself. xcopper is one of them

[D-3vil]

fight it. he must be low on his quota. contact your favorite ticket fighters or do it yourself. xcopper is one of them

Ticket fighters are a waste of money, esp. for a 2-point offense. Do a bit of research and fight it yourself.

Which GTA court do you have to report to? The Markham one is pretty backlogged (not sure about others), and will more than likely schedule you more than a year after your offense date.

[Sylvestre]

fight it yourself for sure but realize that saying you drop off your kid at X time isn't a valid defence (even if you have witnesses). You will need some type of record that shows a time print.

[donye]

fight it yourself for sure but realize that saying you drop off your kid at X time isn't a valid defence (even if you have witnesses). You will need some type of record that shows a time print.

Thanks for all reply.

I went to richmond hill court (50 high tech Rd.) today and fyl it " trial request"
form and gave to the lady.She datestamp on my ticket.

The officer stopped me at brimly rd and lee ave.(near 14th ave and brimly)
in markham.
They stopped atleast 6 car before me.there were 3 officers.

I can get a letter that says that i drop off my kid at day care at 8.55am that day.because they have the record.I alrady talked to day care.She told me fight it.Then i got the ticket AFTER I DROVE 8-10 MIN. .But officer wrote 8.53am on the ticket.But , the time was 9.02 am.ONLY THE LEFT TURN NOT ALLOWED BETWEEN 7-9AM.

Can i fight myself in court? I am not very good in english.I don't know much law.

[cipher]

I'd fight it. With the time so close to 9:00am, the judge will most likely let you off with a warning.

[D-3vil]

Can i fight myself in court? I am not very good in english.I don't know much law.

You're doing a great job so far! Now there's not much to do except wait for a trial date in the mail. In the meantime, you could familiarize yourself with the material at www.magma.ca/~fyst. It's a bit outdated and focuses on speeding-related offenses, but the legal process is the same.

Your first option should be trying to dismiss the charge through a technicality. Trial date more than a year away, failure of prosecution to provide disclosure (after repeated attempts on your side), failure of officer to show up in court can all result in a dismissed charge.

If the above fail, arrange for someone from day care to be with you in court as your witness. I'm not sure if a written statement will suffice, as the prosecution has the right to cross-examination.

If you're sure about the time discrepancy, it might also be worth it to ask for the officers notes (pertaining to your ticket and previous tickets he issued) and ticket "roster" (ie a copy of a few tickets he wrote before and after yours). You will do this as part of your request for disclosure. If there's a timeline discrepancy, you can use that in your favour.

[donye]

On the ticket , it doesn't say anything about left turn or allowed time.
The officer only wrote :
Did commit the offence of :" DISOBEY OFFICIAL SIGN "
At:Brimley rd / Lee ave Markham
Contrary : HTA
Sect : 128

Now, i waiting for a court date. I think, i will get letter from Richmond Hill court after 3-4 months?
Now, i have to get a letter from day care that show what time i drop off my kid there before i got ticket .Is that help?
May be, i can ask her(day care) to come court and tell what time i was at day care.

Thank You for all reply.

[donye]

I got a letter from day care today.(01/05/07)
She wrote , i was at 8.55 am at day care in the letter.
I asked her,is it ok to come to court and tell what time i was there.
She said, she(day care manager) going to ask that who wrote the time record that day.

[ElChico]

Why didn't you just tell the cop when you got the ticket? Woulda saved both of you a lot of trouble.

[donye]

Why didn't you just tell the cop when you got the ticket? Woulda saved both of you a lot of trouble.

Because ,i thought, never arque with cop.
Is it ok,i should tell the cop, "isn't after 9 am now ,right?, why are you then write a ticket to me"? may be , i should tell him that.But, i was nervous tell him like that.

[ElChico]

Because ,i thought, never arque with cop.
Is it ok,i should tell the cop, "isn't after 9 am now ,right?, why are you then write a ticket to me"? may be , i should tell him that.But, i was nervous tell him like that.

The cop is your first chance to plead your case. If it's as cut and dry as your clock is a few minutes fast or showing past 9:00 tell the cop, they're people too, you'll get a warning and be allowed on your way. Just be polite and check the attitude when talking with cops.

[D-3vil]

I got a letter from day care today.(01/05/07)
She wrote , i was at 8.55 am at day care in the letter.
I asked her,is it ok to come to court and tell what time i was there.
She said, she(day care manager) going to ask that who wrote the time record that day.

actually, if the daycare uses a log (which gets completed as parents drop off their children), you should be able to just use that log as evidence and forego the witness part.

[flamenko]

Your letter from the daycare as well as the log is not gonna help, especially since the time is only a few minutes off. You can fight it but that point wont help you.

Even if you bring the daycare pers in to stand up for you, the court will not value evidence of only a few minutes difference as the only real pers watching his watch was the PO

Yes, its a 2 point ticket so a defender prob wont help.

Next, its your word against the officers if you decide to fight it. So far you listened to everyone here who, without any logic at all, told you to fight it without any sufficient reason.

Heres a thought for you, consider it. This is how it is considered by the court. Its your word against the officer's. Its possibly your word against 2 or 3 officers if they were there as part of a specific program which it sounds like they were.

If they were there as part of a specific program, this doesnt help you at all, though if the ticket is at 8:53am, you may find the sympathy of the court but most likely the prosecutor and get a fine reduction.

Points are points, get used to it...

Good luck, if your innocent.

HINT HINT...If it says that the Disobey Official Sign section is 128, you might want to speak with the prosecutor and ask for it to be quashed or reduced very least (monetarily). Although the offence section is in err, its not a crucial error and can be amended by the court. The ticket wont be thrown out because of this.

The funny part is, if you would have just let your ticket go unanswered, it would have been quashed in the system because it wasnt correct on its face. So....by fighting it, you have just given the justice system a second kick at the cat as it will come to court and they can now amend the section number.

You can thank all those above who said to fight it for that mistake on your part. lol. Thats hilarious!!!

[donye]

actually, if the daycare uses a log (which gets completed as parents drop off their children), you should be able to just use that log as evidence and forego the witness part.

yes, the randall school day care staff write it down what time parents dropp off kids and what time pick them up in a paper. (letter size paper)
All kids name and drop off time there.But the day care lady don't want to give me the copy of the paper.I think, because of other kids name there.
She only can tell or write what time i dropped off my kid that day.

[donye]

There was one another car turned after me, the other cop ,let the car go.
I told the officer , see there is other car going, he said, we can't handle all car.
Then there was another van turned, the cop who wrote the ticket to me, asked other cop to stop the van.Then the other cop stopped the van.See, it's not fair, they stopped some and they let it go some.I don't know, they wrote ticket to the van driver or not.

[donye]

Your letter from the daycare as well as the log is not gonna help, especially since the time is only a few minutes off. You can fight it but that point wont help you.

Even if you bring the daycare pers in to stand up for you, the court will not value evidence of only a few minutes difference as the only real pers watching his watch was the PO

Yes, its a 2 point ticket so a defender prob wont help.

Next, its your word against the officers if you decide to fight it. So far you listened to everyone here who, without any logic at all, told you to fight it without any sufficient reason.

Heres a thought for you, consider it. This is how it is considered by the court. Its your word against the officer's. Its possibly your word against 2 or 3 officers if they were there as part of a specific program which it sounds like they were.

If they were there as part of a specific program, this doesnt help you at all, though if the ticket is at 8:53am, you may find the sympathy of the court but most likely the prosecutor and get a fine reduction.

Points are points, get used to it...

Good luck, if your innocent.

HINT HINT...If it says that the Disobey Official Sign section is 128, you might want to speak with the prosecutor and ask for it to be quashed or reduced very least (monetarily). Although the offence section is in err, its not a crucial error and can be amended by the court. The ticket wont be thrown out because of this.

The funny part is, if you would have just let your ticket go unanswered, it would have been quashed in the system because it wasnt correct on its face. So....by fighting it, you have just given the justice system a second kick at the cat as it will come to court and they can now amend the section number.

You can thank all those above who said to fight it for that mistake on your part. lol. Thats hilarious!!!


Thank you


If the daycare written statment not enough evidence , then what can i do?
tell the judge , i'm guilty (even i'm not guilty) please reduse the fine?

[gman]

There was one another car turned after me, the other cop ,let the car go.
I told the officer , see there is other car going, he said, we can't handle all car.
Then there was another van turned, the cop who wrote the ticket to me, asked other cop to stop the van.Then the other cop stopped the van.See, it's not fair, they stopped some and they let it go some.I don't know, they wrote ticket to the van driver or not.

The officer had his point. He could not catch everyone. Don't even mention this in court.

I would say you have a good chance to get the case close. The time is close and you have a witness (although indirectly). Make sure you are calm, reasonable and have good attitude. Don't mention anything which is not related to your case such as mentioning the cop letting others go. The game plan is to challenge the time. Your point is reasonable enough to have a case.

I went to court many times. So far, I have not been guilty once including those I plead guilty with explanation. Those who have bad attitude were the one who lose their case.

[donye]

The officer had his point. He could not catch everyone. Don't even mention this in court.

I would say you have a good chance to get the case close. The time is close and you have a witness (although indirectly). Make sure you are calm, reasonable and have good attitude. Don't mention anything which is not related to your case such as mentioning the cop letting others go. The game plan is to challenge the time. Your point is reasonable enough to have a case.

I went to court many times. So far, I have not been guilty once including those I plead guilty with explanation. Those who have bad attitude were the one who lose their case.

Thank You

Yes, I'm calm, reasonable and have good attitude.
This is my first time to go to court.
This is my 2nd traffic ticket.
I got my 1st ticket for speeding 2 yeas ago. i drove 60 at 50 zone.I got $40 ticket. I paid it. no point.

[GangStarr]

fight it yourself for sure but realize that saying you drop off your kid at X time isn't a valid defence (even if you have witnesses). You will need some type of record that shows a time print.

true, I got a 7:01 ticket once for a no left 7-9

if you go to court you'll get the standard deal, reduce to DISOBEY OFFICIAL SIGN, no points.

[flamenko]

If he gets it reduced to Disobey Official Sign that would be a great deal as that is what he has been charged with. Its already a no pointer.

Something the author has missed thusfar I addressed above. Section 128, which is on your ticket, is NOT for this offence. It is for speeding.

Read my previous advice regarding this point.

Flamenko

[donye]

If he gets it reduced to Disobey Official Sign that would be a great deal as that is what he has been charged with. Its already a no pointer.

Something the author has missed thusfar I addressed above. Section 128, which is on your ticket, is NOT for this offence. It is for speeding.

Read my previous advice regarding this point.

Flamenko

Disobey Official Sign - 2 points , right?

[D-3vil]

If he gets it reduced to Disobey Official Sign that would be a great deal as that is what he has been charged with. Its already a no pointer.

Something the author has missed thusfar I addressed above. Section 128, which is on your ticket, is NOT for this offence. It is for speeding.

Read my previous advice regarding this point.

Flamenko

You seem to know everything ... pause ... not! [/borat]

The disobey sign offense the OP has been charged with is worth two points, not zero (and before you disagree, I have personal experience with this one). And the ticket would not have been quashed had he not taken any action. The error on the ticket (if indeed it says HTA 128) is minor and will not get this charge thrown out under any circumstances (as it will be simply amended), regardless of how many times one speaks to the prosecutor (see quote below)
Technical Errors on the Offence Notice

The defendant can object to a defect found on the Offence Notice during trial. It is important to note, however, that the Justice of the Peace may amend the document to correct the defects on the Offence Notice (POA, 34), as long as correcting the error does not deprive the defendant of his or her right to defend him or her self (POA, 34(4)(c)(d)).

Technical errors which have resulted in the dropping of charges include an incorrect or missing date of the offence, missing defendant name, missing charging officer name, missing location of offence, missing description of the offence or offence indicated is unknown to law, and Offence Notice was not given to the defendant within 30 days of the offence date (POA, 3(3))

To the OP, ask for a copy of the log from the daycare. They can cross out the other kids' last names with a marker and thus protect their privacy. To be on the safe side, you can also notarize the copy, to assert it's true to the original (so that you don't submit the original log as evidence). The purpose of the log is to support your statement: that the cop wrote the incorrect time on the ticket. You now have supporting evidence, while the cop has only himself. The prosecution will not bring in the other cops to testify for this (even if they will be present in court, they will have no recollection of this event, as they did not write anything down in their notebook).

Also, you did not mention before that you had another ticket on your record already. In that case, even better that you chose to fight it. By the time this goes to trial, you'll be very close (if not past) your ticket's expiration date (unfortunately, you should have fought that one, too). The insurance companies should thus never see two tickets on your record (which should help keep your rates lower).

[flamenko]

I think you went and repeated whet I have already written, to an extent. First off, its a minor error...Ive stated this already which can be amended. If you have the court experience that you say you have, however, you will of course know that the court may pull it though. It saves the officer the embarassment...been done countless number of times.

You see, the officers were there performing a specific task, watching for a specific offence, similar to Seat belt Campaigns or RIDE programs. Its a bit embarassing to write the wrong section when you are there for that specific purpose.

Next, get yourself an HTA and POA for Xmas next year. You can then refer to it and the point/fine schedules which would make you look less foolish. It will also describe to you how a ticket needs to be correct on its face for it to be valid. If one does not fight the ticket, it is examined and, when its noted that the wording/section is incorrect, it is quashed each and every time. Why??? Simply because it has not been contested and the officer/prosecution cannot correct the error since it does not go to court.

And as far as seeming to know everything....Im here to try to assist others but, for the most part, end up having people who say they know it all correcting me with inaccurate advice....like you have.

As for the log....its useless, the Daycare wont allow it as the author already said and...the offence time compared to the real time is minutes. One can have the wrong time on their watch in this case or maybe the author was just late.... Again ineffective advise from someone purporting to be so fluent with POA court.

You have been in court how many times? I would guess were not doing so well now are we here????

On the other hand...hundreds of appearances for myself is an understatement.

To the author... sort through all you have found here. Seek ot the proper advice and then act. Remember, should you have just let the ticket follow its course already it would have been quashed as it is 'not proper on its face' without you ever having to appear in court.
Now your tryiing to fix up the mistake because of those who are angry, for the most part, at the system and police. (Refer back to the comment "Fight it, he must have been after his quota"

[Alvito]

Rate of speed

128. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle at a rate of speed greater than,

(a) 50 kilometres per hour on a highway within a local municipality or within a built-up area;

(b) despite clause (a), 80 kilometres per hour on a highway, not within a built-up area, that is within a local municipality that had the status of a township on December 31, 2002 and, but for the enactment of the Municipal Act, 2001, would have had the status of a township on January 1, 2003, if the municipality is prescribed by regulation;

(c) 80 kilometres per hour on a highway designated by the Lieutenant Governor in Council as a controlled-access highway under the Public Transportation and Highway Improvement Act, whether or not the highway is within a local municipality or built-up area;

(d) the rate of speed prescribed for motor vehicles on a highway in accordance with subsection (2), (3.1), (4), (5), (6), (6.1) or (7);


Okay, so we've established that the Section was wrong.


Now then, what the OP needs to do is get that paper from the daycare saying his kid was dropping off at 8:55am, it would also help if you have previous days to show that you drop him off consistently at 8:55. If not don't worry about it.

There was some talk that the Prosecution will amend the ticket, and change the charge of the offense. Let them. So 128 is wrong, they fix it to whatever, thats fine.

Now the OP can state the daycare thing. If the prosecution says anything to do with the watches or clocks of the daycare to show the incorrect time, the OP can fire back (of course after doing his disclosure requesting for the officers watch calibration or something like that) and say that the police don't keep ABSOLUTE time either and that they have more to gain by forging the time than the daycare works do.

We just want the OP's story to look more believable than the police.





To the guy who got the ticket: Make sure you find out how to get disclosure and ask for that watch calibration, they wont send you that for sure and then you can nail em with that later. Good luck!


Remember, if your trial date is 8-10 months since the offense date you can also mail the prosecution saying you would like to make it a constitutional matter and say that your rights have been infringed upon. Thats insta-throw out as well. Although I was told some judges will only do it if its over 14 months.

[donye]

Is better i go with xcoper or do it myself?
Because , i don't understand some law words.

[D-3vil]

As for the log....its useless, the Daycare wont allow it as the author already said and...the offence time compared to the real time is minutes. One can have the wrong time on their watch in this case or maybe the author was just late.... Again ineffective advise from someone purporting to be so fluent with POA court.

Get off your high chair there ... the log will give the defendant the benefit of a doubt. Both the log and the defendant will testify that the officer wrote the incorrect time on the ticket. The difference of a few minutes that you mention is the difference between getting a ticket and not getting one. As such, by bringing in the log, the OP's chances that the ticket will be rejected in court are higher. Add to this the mistake the officer made on the ticket (while minor, it does speak to his state of mind), and even though the charge will be amended or not, the OP has a pretty good case. A lot of it depends on asking the right questions.

FYI, I won all my court cases. I may not have been to hundreds, but I do my research and it pays. You sound too much like an agent (been to hundreds of court cases, etc etc), yet you have no useful advice for the OP. I'd respect your posts in this thread more if you were to suggest a strategy that would increase the OP's chances in court, rather than just suppress all the advice offered here. Could've's and should've's are not it.

[flamenko]

1. They cannot release the log because of privacy issues. OP has already stated that.

2. A letter is no good as it is not sufficient as 'the best evidence' by law. The best evidence is a person, first hand in this case. I believe it has already been acknowledged that the person will not attend.

3. The officer never wrote the incorrect time on the ticket. For the JP to accept this, he or she will have to discard the fact that he or she is trained to perform that duty, was there for a specific purpose, and somehow made a mistake on the time? That would mean the JP would have to believe there is an alternative reason the officer gave a ticket out with the incorrect time.

There has been no reasonable doubt shown thusfar and will not be unless OP can question the integrity of the officer/reliability of his watch.

Since watches are not calibrated like speedometers, the court will deem the officers watch to be correct, specifically because he is there for A SPECIFIC PURPOSE.

Consider it, the officer is looking for people making illegal left turns BEFORE 9 AM. Do you really believe you will get the court to believe he didnt know what he was doing, especially since he has 2 other officers to back him up?

4. And this one really confuses me D-3evil.... you say you have won all your cases, even the ones you plead guilty with an explanation to??? Well that seems to make no sense to me. You either plead guilty or you dont. When you plead guilty, the court accepts it and deems your guilt and then listens to your excuse. It only goes towards penalty and cannot change your guilt.

Concluding, in all this forum, I would suggest his most reasonable and best opportunity to succeed is through exactly my suggestion. Its a suggestion made through experience and trust me, not as an agent...but that was funny...had to laugh over that.

And as for getting an agent donya...thats totally your choice . The main assistance an agent fulfills is that of getting a charged reduced which any person can do just as easily if they just asked. (sorry any agents here). I will state though that, in cases of innocence (traffic accidents etc) they have the expertise to follow it through.

The unfortunate part of these forums which keeps revisiting itself are the number of people who offer advise with a specific vengeance and that is the downfall of those seeking advice. "Fight it because its your right" "Fight it because the cop was seeking to fill his quota" "Fight it because the cop lied".

I hate to say it D-3Evil but you have fallen into that category on any number of your remarks.

Anyway...donya, you can pm me from here on in if you have a ?. It gets disheartening responding to armchair quarterbacks when one simply wants to spell out the reality the big guy behind the bench sees.

[gman]

4. And this one really confuses me D-3evil.... you say you have won all your cases, even the ones you plead guilty with an explanation to??? Well that seems to make no sense to me. You either plead guilty or you dont. When you plead guilty, the court accepts it and deems your guilt and then listens to your excuse. It only goes towards penalty and cannot change your guilt.


It was me who said that. I am not trying to make legal sense here. I just said that because of my experience. Remember, even if you plead guilty of murder, it does not mean the court will automatically rule that you are. The reason is my understanding of guilty can be wrong. The JP can also throw away the case just because he feels like it.

On of the "I pleaded guilty with explanation and got away with it" was actually a making a left turn in the restricted time. After my explanation, 2 cases of the same incidence were also thrown away. We were all caught at the same time. The motorbike cops stopped 3 cars in one shot. The other two guys got a freebie and they did not even need to plead anything.

[donye]

I checked my ticket again now.
The officer din't put/check time AM OR PM , just 853
Is that minor mistake or don't need check that?

The officer wrote his name only NG on top of the ticket ( i think, thats not his full name), but, he sign it down.

If the daycare log (all kids name with dropped off time list) good evidence, then i can ask the daycare lady one more time tomorrow.
She said, she can't when i ask her that last thursday.

[1DarkChaos]

go to court yourself
this is a minor ticket so the judge will most likely let you off with a good reason and you have so don't worry much about it

[ferkel]

Its hard to prove that your watch wasn't running fast vs the 3 officers watches. It sounds like it will depend on the mood of the judge if you go to trial.

[D-3vil]

Here's some stuff to keep in mind:

(1) The officer(s) will not remember one thing about pulling anyone over at the time of the trial.
(2) Their notes are not synched, thus one officer will not write down what the other officer is doing and at what time -- this effectively means that, unless the officers made a note of synchronizing their watches, they didn't, and no evidence introduced by the other 2 officers has any bearing on the case.

So really, it's one officer's watch against the OP's + the daycare log.

Watches nowadays don't run that fast if at all (we're talking a 10min difference -- much less of a probability that the daycare's + OP's watches were both running fast), however, all it takes is for a watch battery to be almost depleted and the watch runs slow.

[donye]

I'm 100% sure, the officer wrote incorrect time .
May be his watch was slow or he wrote incorrect time even his watch was right.I mean, he wrote 8.53 but his watch was 9.02.
But, it's not easy to proof that to judge.

[flamenko]

RE: D-3vil's advice.

1. The officers will not remember anything. Ok now...understand this. In order for an officer to give evidence he must have independant recollection. How often have you heard an officer say he does not have a recollection? So... this point is another false positive.

Further, courts do accept words to the effect of "I dont recall the person but at the time I compared his picture to his drivers licence and confirmed his identity.

2. It has nothing to do with synched watches. The officers time is clear. You cannot refute it only hope for sympathy as it was close. if you fight saying the officer is incorrect, dont even bother wasting your time.

Further, his two counterparts will not swear to an exact time, but rather, only that they were still performing that particular duty because it was still before 9am. Thats all that has to be said.

To follow the above suggested line, you are, in essence, telling the court you are right and he is wrong which again puts the court into the area of who outweighs who. He is trained, there for a specific purpose, and his watch is correct in all his other functions of his duties.

Now... consider this. The court will end up relying on the fact that the stop was at the stated time, but you looked at your watch while the ticket was being processed which sounds logical.

[donye]

RE: D-3vil's advice.

1. The officers will not remember anything. Ok now...understand this. In order for an officer to give evidence he must have independant recollection. How often have you heard an officer say he does not have a recollection? So... this point is another false positive.

Further, courts do accept words to the effect of "I dont recall the person but at the time I compared his picture to his drivers licence and confirmed his identity.

2. It has nothing to do with synched watches. The officers time is clear. You cannot refute it only hope for sympathy as it was close. if you fight saying the officer is incorrect, dont even bother wasting your time.

Further, his two counterparts will not swear to an exact time, but rather, only that they were still performing that particular duty because it was still before 9am. Thats all that has to be said.

To follow the above suggested line, you are, in essence, telling the court you are right and he is wrong which again puts the court into the area of who outweighs who. He is trained, there for a specific purpose, and his watch is correct in all his other functions of his duties.

Now... consider this. The court will end up relying on the fact that the stop was at the stated time, but you looked at your watch while the ticket was being processed which sounds logical.


I don't want to say to judge that officer watch was incorrect.

I want to say to judge, Your honour , My watch ( car dashboard time) was 9.02 am, thats why i did left turn.Here is written statment from daycare thats show, i was at daycare at 8.55am.( but, if judge say, may be you went to daycare after you got ticket,Then i have to show judge my driving route, because it's opposit way)

If judge aske me, " are you guilty ot not"? What i say?


The officers pulled me over last wednesday.I saw police car there thursday,friday and today monday.But , i drove streight.( no left turn even after 9am)

I asked the daycare lady today about the drop off time list .She said, she can't because of the other kids name.
I think, even they don't like to come court .
Only , i have daycare written statment.

[gman]

I don't want to say to judge that officer watch was incorrect.

I want to say to judge, Your honour , My watch ( car dashboard time) was 9.02 am, thats why i did left turn.Here is written statment from daycare thats show, i was at daycare at 8.55am.( but, if judge say, may be you went to daycare after you got ticket,Then i have to show judge my driving route, because it's opposit way)

If judge aske me, " are you guilty ot not"? What i say?


The officers pulled me over last wednesday.I saw police car there thursday,friday and today monday.But , i drove streight.( no left turn even after 9am)

I asked the daycare lady today about the drop off time list .She said, she can't because of the other kids name.
I think, even they don't like to come court .
Only , i have daycare written statment.

"I plead not guilty, your Honour.".

[Alvito]

It is important to note that the judge will not ask if he isnt guilty or not, he will ask: "What do you plea?"

then you respond, I plead not guilty your honour.

[CanadianMoFo]

yes, the randall school day care staff write it down what time parents dropp off kids and what time pick them up in a paper. (letter size paper)
All kids name and drop off time there.But the day care lady don't want to give me the copy of the paper.I think, because of other kids name there.
She only can tell or write what time i dropped off my kid that day.

Ask her for a photo-copy of the paper. Just have all the other kids names blocked off by a sheet of paper covering them up. That should keep their names private, but allow you to have your check in time shown.

CM

[donye]

Ask her for a photo-copy of the paper. Just have all the other kids names blocked off by a sheet of paper covering them up. That should keep their names private, but allow you to have your check in time shown.

CM

I already asked her 2nd time, but she said,she can't.I told her , you can blocked off other kids name.
I have only her written statment with her name, address,telephone number.
She attached her business card with the statment.
She wrote , i dropped off my kid that day at 8.55 am and she sign it.

[flamenko]

The court will not and technically can not accept the note or the log. It cannot be admitted, notarized or not. I have tried to explain this already. If you follow our laws right back to the beginning there is a well known and very highly regarded term called the ' Best Evidence Rule'. In fact, it is so highly regarded that it is included in modern day rules of evidence; there are 12 of them.

Only the best evidence can be used. In this case, only the person who signed that register can appear to give oral testimony first hand.

I will give you another example relating to traffic law. Officer Friendly conducts a pace on a vehicle on an empty road even though he has a radar. Case dismissed if determined that all circumstances dictate that the radar could have been utilized. It provides the best evidence.

[flamenko]

The best evidence rule is a common law rule of evidence which can be traced back at least as far as the 18th century. In Omychund v Barker (1745) 1 Atk, 21, 49; 26 ER 15, 33, Lord Harwicke stated that no evidence was admissible unless it was "the best that the nature of the case will allow".

[donye]

The court will not and technically can not accept the note or the log. It cannot be admitted, notarized or not. I have tried to explain this already. If you follow our laws right back to the beginning there is a well known and very highly regarded term called the ' Best Evidence Rule'. In fact, it is so highly regarded that it is included in modern day rules of evidence; there are 12 of them.

Only the best evidence can be used. In this case, only the person who signed that register can appear to give oral testimony first hand.

I will give you another example relating to traffic law. Officer Friendly conducts a pace on a vehicle on an empty road even though he has a radar. Case dismissed if determined that all circumstances dictate that the radar could have been utilized. It provides the best evidence.

Ok. Now,I know the girl ,who registered droped off time the day.
I can try to ask her to come court.
How can she come to court when she work at daycare?
I don't think, she do it for me free.
May be she can come court if i pay to her some money and i pick her up from daycare and drop her there.May be she have to get permission from superviser (the lady i talked before) to go court.
Is court date,one of the weekdays morning time , right?

[flamenko]

If you pay her, she is not an impartial witness, someone who doesnt gain fm either side. The court will take that into consideration when weighing the reliability of her evidence.

Next, and you must understand this, the court process is lengthy and can work for both sides. If you request, they may delay it and its the same for the prosecution. She may come then be required to be back again.

There are times when the court may not even reach your matter and it needs to be rescheduled.

Told you....its a complicated decision. there are alot of factors; its not as simple as "Fight it"

[donye]

If you pay her, she is not an impartial witness, someone who doesnt gain fm either side. The court will take that into consideration when weighing the reliability of her evidence.

Next, and you must understand this, the court process is lengthy and can work for both sides. If you request, they may delay it and its the same for the prosecution. She may come then be required to be back again.

There are times when the court may not even reach your matter and it needs to be rescheduled.

Told you....its a complicated decision. there are alot of factors; its not as simple as "Fight it"

Ok.Then i just tell judge, " Your honor, My watch was 9.02 am when i turned the day.I plead not guilty your honor".

yes, it's complicated.
What will happen if i not win the case? Just pay the ticket?

[jason1022]

Damn...got the same ticket (same place) this morning, but need some advises here...I'm planning to go to the court by myself and probably have to plead guilty with an explanation, 'cause I got in the 'trap' at 7:40am...but my true story was I took the same way to work almost everyday for 3 years (doing the same turn), but I didn't take the same way these few weeks 'cause I took my son to stay at my mother-in-law's house & just back to my home 'til last night (so go back on the same routine this morning), so my point is (and I think that's what I'm going to tell the judge for an excuse that) I was driving the same way for few years and they just put the sign up before christmas (this was confirmed by the city of Markham) with no big "NEW" sign, so I missed the sign (ouch!!) Do you guys think that the judge will deduct the fine somehow? I got the ticket w/ $110 but the officer told me that w/ no point deduct (well...I'm not 100% trust him 'cause seems like by law is need to deduct 2 points & he did not write anything special note on the ticket).

[donye]

Damn...got the same ticket (same place) this morning, but need some advises here...I'm planning to go to the court by myself and probably have to plead guilty with an explanation, 'cause I got in the 'trap' at 7:40am...but my true story was I took the same way to work almost everyday for 3 years (doing the same turn), but I didn't take the same way these few weeks 'cause I took my son to stay at my mother-in-law's house & just back to my home 'til last night (so go back on the same routine this morning), so my point is (and I think that's what I'm going to tell the judge for an excuse that) I was driving the same way for few years and they just put the sign up before christmas (this was confirmed by the city of Markham) with no big "NEW" sign, so I missed the sign (ouch!!) Do you guys think that the judge will deduct the fine somehow? I got the ticket w/ $110 but the officer told me that w/ no point deduct (well...I'm not 100% trust him 'cause seems like by law is need to deduct 2 points & he did not write anything special note on the ticket).

Yes.That's a new sign.I drive the same route last 4 years too to go work from my house after drop off my kid at daycare.
I think, markham city put the new sign just one or two months ago.Thats why many people caught by police.I saw police there almost everyday after new year.I saw them there today too.
I feel bad when i think about it ,because i turned brimley to lee ave last 4 years.It was no the sign there before.I turned at 9.02 am ,but the officer wrote on ticket 8.53am.I think, so many people going to court because of this.

[jason1022]

I think you should fight the ticket by yourself...'cause I got few friends that the fight the ticket by themselves and the judge had reduced the penalty...and the ticket fighter $$$ really high now (around $500 for a speeding ticket & 3pts. deduction, and the ticket fighter will guarantee no pts will deduct & pay more if you want to clean up the ticket, this got quote from one of my friend few months ago)... even though you can't speak very well in english, but I think you can get a translator when you go to court. Bty, I still have no idea why they set up this stupid sign on that intersection!!!!

[Frameboy]

[QUOTE=flamenko;4464974]RE: D-3vil's advice.


2. It has nothing to do with synched watches. The officers time is clear. You cannot refute it only hope for sympathy as it was close. if you fight saying the officer is incorrect, dont even bother wasting your time.

Further, his two counterparts will not swear to an exact time, but rather, only that they were still performing that particular duty because it was still before 9am. Thats all that has to be said.
QUOTE]


You think THREE cops are going to show up for a traffic ticket that two of them didn't write? You seem to know your law, but we all know that isn't going to happen...

This isn't a capital case... the court will listen to reasonable arguements. The court may or may not buy it, but they will listen.

The daycare log (if you can get it) and the close time give the OP some consideration on a few minutes.

I've seen traffic court judges take into account that a parent didn't do a reaasonable job watching their kids driving habbits... I've seen a judge consider that a kid is good and always does his homework. I saw a 17 year old girl get off a massive speeding ticket because her dad promised to punish her accordingly.

And I've seen cops not show up for court... over and over and over.

Be reasonable, be respectful and they will listen.

[flamenko]

The cops will be in court most probably together. They are there for a specific purpose and hand out dozens of tickets. Most likely, the court dates will be reflective of this as it is with laser programs and so on.

Secondly, they will not be needed as I had explained originally, but can be used if necessary.

This matter will get only as far as the prosecutor in any case.

And yes jp's have let things go on any number of reasons and yes..cops have been known not to show at court....

But its not the norm... We cant offer hope based on a rarity of minor occurrences.

[Frameboy]

The info below is not my suggestion... it is just another option for you. You may or may not choose to follow it.

A friend of mine (in law) suggested you go to the Crown (before your date... they have office hours before court usually) and tell them you would like "Disclosure".

They may do it for you on the spot, or ask you to come back... either way, do it, and do it ahead of your court date.

Second, after you get the disclosure, go home, call the court and ask for a "Resolution Meeting".

Meet with the Crown, or the Crown's representative at the resolution meeting and share your story... along with the letter from the Daycare.

He said at the very least, you'll get a reduced fine.

I'm no lawyer, and this is second hand, but we had a long conversation about this, and as long as your crime isn't serious, and you have done your homework, your side of the story will be respected.

He also pointed out that the number of the offense probably isn't wrong... I don't recall exactly why, but there more than one place they get the offence numbers from. It's not just the Highway Traffic Act. The same thing happened to him, and he looked into it and found out why the number doesn't match. It's like a revision number or something... BUT... as previously stated, that won't get you off.

He also said (as somebody else stated) that if you go in saying "My watch said 9:02." you will lose.

BUT...

He said they absolutly will consider the fact that you have a letter from the Daycare... while it may not fit the rules of evidence, they will consider it. In fact he said "If this guy is putting that much work into it, he will be okay."

Like I said... this isn't what you SHOULD do, just an option.

Personally, I would go to court with your letter from the daycare, meet with the Crown before hand and say "Can we do something with this before we go to court?" and take it from there... if you are reasonable, they will be reasonable.

[flamenko]

Finally. Your friend has advised you wisely.

[shagkie]

Ok like 20 other people I got the same ticket on the morning of Jan 10th at the same location. I didn't realize that this was a new sign as I drive to work through that turn for the last year and a half. I didn't know that you can put up new traffic signs without display a BIG "NEW SIGN AHEAD" sort of thing for a month of so so that people that regular there knows of this change. Can we use this fact in court? I think that the officer that wrote me my ticket of the wrong section code on it.

[donye]

The info below is not my suggestion... it is just another option for you. You may or may not choose to follow it.

A friend of mine (in law) suggested you go to the Crown (before your date... they have office hours before court usually) and tell them you would like "Disclosure".

They may do it for you on the spot, or ask you to come back... either way, do it, and do it ahead of your court date.

Second, after you get the disclosure, go home, call the court and ask for a "Resolution Meeting".

Meet with the Crown, or the Crown's representative at the resolution meeting and share your story... along with the letter from the Daycare.

He said at the very least, you'll get a reduced fine.

I'm no lawyer, and this is second hand, but we had a long conversation about this, and as long as your crime isn't serious, and you have done your homework, your side of the story will be respected.

He also pointed out that the number of the offense probably isn't wrong... I don't recall exactly why, but there more than one place they get the offence numbers from. It's not just the Highway Traffic Act. The same thing happened to him, and he looked into it and found out why the number doesn't match. It's like a revision number or something... BUT... as previously stated, that won't get you off.

He also said (as somebody else stated) that if you go in saying "My watch said 9:02." you will lose.

BUT...

He said they absolutly will consider the fact that you have a letter from the Daycare... while it may not fit the rules of evidence, they will consider it. In fact he said "If this guy is putting that much work into it, he will be okay."

Like I said... this isn't what you SHOULD do, just an option.

Personally, I would go to court with your letter from the daycare, meet with the Crown before hand and say "Can we do something with this before we go to court?" and take it from there... if you are reasonable, they will be reasonable.


Ok , Thank You
I sent you PM
Anybody know another option?

[donye]

I saw the officer today at 14th ave and brimley rd who wrote ticket to me on jan.3.The officer pulled over a van at 14th ave (between brimley and kennedy) and was talking with van driver.I thought, i go and talk to him about my ticket.But, i don't know, i can do that or not. So i didn't talk to him.
Is it ok i talk to the officer about my ticket if i saw him there next week?
Or it's not help?

[flamenko]

He would prob be reluctant to discuss it.

[donye]

yes, the section number on my ticket is incorrect.
sect.128 on my ticket .(incorrect)

It's should be sect.182 (correct) and sec.151 (correct)

I read a book " the law of traffic Offences, second edition "
and found the sect.128 is incorrect on my ticket.

The book says :
Disobey sign - subsection 182(2)
Disobey official sign -subsection 151(1)

"The following errors in charging documents have been held to be either no defect, or subject to amendment by the court at the request of the prosecutor"

" use of incorrect section number or failure to state a section number where the offence is adequately described in words"

The sect.number minor error, right?

[donye]

I went to court to get my "disclosure".
They said, i have to wait until i get court date .
They don't have the file their system yet.
They told me, i cannot talk to crown because i requested "trial" (option 3 on ticket).They said, if i want to talk to crown, i should choose option 2 .
They had 2 different forms there.
1. trial request
2. first attendence (with trial request)

I filed trial request on jan.5.07. I don't know, i did choose right form.

[napoleonz]

I went to court to get my "disclosure".
They said, i have to wait until i get court date .
They don't have the file their system yet.
They told me, i cannot talk to crown because i requested "trail" (optoin 3 on ticket).They said, if i want to talk to crown, i should choose option 2 .
They had 2 different forms there.
1. trail request
2. first attendence (with trail request)

I just file trail request .I don't know, i did choose right form.

I'm no expert, but shouldn't you choose 'first attendence' ? That's when you'll meet with the crown before the actual trial.

[Frameboy]

So Donye...

How is it going?

I read my friend your message, and he said "Resolution meetings don't have to be official. I would advise him to find out what days the crown pros. sits...then go in early on one of those days and try to have an informal talk with him/her."

He also gave me a couple of links for you...

http://www.canlii.org/on/laws/sta/h-8/

and

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90h08_e.htm

Let us know how it works out...

[vb_king]

You should read the information on the previously posted website
it will contain all the info you need to fight you ticket.

although its only for speeding the procedure is the same for all
minor traffic offences

http://www.magma.ca/~fyst/

[donye]

ok, i'm going to read the web sites.The court lady said, i will get "court date" letter within 4-6 months.

I saw police car today at lee ave and brimley rd., when i went to work today morning at 9am .The officer was waiting for someone turn into lee ave.to give ticket.(no turn between 7am-9am)
But, there was a NICE GUY stopped his SUV (flashing his suv head light) at brimley rd./lee ave. and not let any driver turn to lee ave.Thats why so many people didn't get ticket today.I saw him at 9am there.I don't know, how long he was there.The officer was waiting at lee. ave, but not close to the intersection.So, the nice guy helped so many people today not getting ticket.He was sit in his SUV and not let other drivers to turn by his hand sign.

[donye]

Ok. I have one question.

Do i have to appear in court room (front of judge) on court date if i make a deal with prosecutor on the court date before court time (lower my fines and demerit points)?

Because i don't have enough evidence to proof that i'm not guilty.
I have only daycare written statment that court not accept it.
I think, i'm going to ask court staff or prosecutor, if the officer in court, if he in court, then i'm going to make a deal with prosecutor plead guilty with explanation.(even i'm not guilty).
If the officer not in court, then i just appear in court room and pead not guilty.

[vb_king]

Ok. I have one question.

Do i have to appear in court room (front of judge) on court date if i make a deal with prosecutor on the court date before court time (lower my fines and demerit points)?

Because i don't have enough evidence to proof that i'm not guilty.
I have only daycare written statment that court not accept it.
I think, i'm going to ask court staff or prosecutor, if the officer in court, if he in court, then i'm going to make a deal with prosecutor plead guilty with explanation.(even i'm not guilty).
If the officer not in court, then i just appear in court room and pead not guilty.



If your interested in how the system works go to the court house and
watch the proceeding, just quietly sit in the back. (There is one in markham and shepard just south)

I believe you will have to appear to plead guilty to the lesser charge.

Before the Justice of the Peace (no judges) comes in everyone will
either talk to the Police officer or Prosecutor to make a deal.
When I was there every one immediately got a reduced sentence.
You'll see all those ticket specialists in suits crowding the prosecutor or
talking to the cop outside the court room.

[AzNCrAzYcOoLeR]

I got t ciet similar to yours, no right turn between 4pm-6pm, I turned at 5:58.

The cop said he lowered it to a bylaw ...and I paid it ..

It was 3.75 =+ court fee $15 = 18.75

I bit the bullet...

[donye]

I didn't get the "court date letter" yet .It's almost 7 months.

[donye]

Good News.I went to richmond hill court today and asked "why i didn't get any court date mail yet?".She checked and told me,it's withdrawen and don't worry about it.