Ticket for following too closely

[EH100501AC]

Are the points for this and will it affect insurance?

[HighFlyer]

4 points. Insurance will definitely be interested in this one.

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/driver/demerit.htm

[EH100501AC]

Oh snap. Can I pay the ticket and get the points taken off or should I just fight it?

[gman]

Oh snap. Can I pay the ticket and get the points taken off or should I just fight it?

Paying the ticket won't get the points taken off.

[7jaii]

They drop the hammer on following too closely. You can plea and maybe get lucky but damn, 4 POINTS!

4 POINTS!

[kaos25000]

Great old Ontario... :) No big deal in Quebec (though it's dangereous). We often have people 10 cm away from each others rear bumper on the highway at 120km/h. Sure hope they'd enforce the "follow too close law" here too. Last winter, we had a 30-car wreck on the highway because of this.

Sorry for your ticket OP; I can assure you I see a lot of people deserving it more than you do over here.

[normistheman]

Fight the ticket. Even if u know u're wrong, just fight it.
U may get lucky and the cop doesn't show. U never know...

[belfour]

wow.. that's a lot...


Police should ticket more ppl for "Unnecessary slow driving" ( 2 points ):lol:

[bembol]

You're kidding...following too close! LOL Must be desperate to meet his Quota!

...wait I forgot they don't have Quota's! :lol:


Fight it.

[Flyer]

So how close were you tailing the guy?

[Alvito]

Fight it.

[lumlum1013]

So how close were you tailing the guy?

I'm also interested to know how close is too close?
bumper kissin'?

[bodzan]

I'm also interested to know how close is too close?
bumper kissin'?


Technically, there is supposed to be approx 2 car lenghts between you and the car in front of you .... I am guessing he had less than a cars lenght or the popo didnt have his daily donuts with a double double

[EH100501AC]

I had 3 car lengths behind him. We were on Steeles Ave going east towards Pickering/Durham.

This was at 1130ish so it's really dark and no matter where you are driving in a rural or highway (say 404 Newmarket) and no one else is there but you and someone in your rear view at night...it's gonna be the brightest thing ever. Consider this: all dark road and only one car behind you vs city driving, street lights on and hundreds of other cars with their lights...which is brighter?

The cop was probably trying to meet his quota (it is the end of the month) and he probably just got annoyed at the lights in his rear view because there was another person behind him who was actually tailing him (who later switched lanes and I got the blame)

So even if I decide to fight this, I have to go all the way to Whitby because I got pulled over in their region.

[Flyer]

I had 3 car lengths behind him. We were on Steeles Ave going east towards Pickering/Durham.

This was at 1130ish so it's really dark and no matter where you are driving in a rural or highway (say 404 Newmarket) and no one else is there but you and someone in your rear view at night...it's gonna be the brightest thing ever. Consider this: all dark road and only one car behind you vs city driving, street lights on and hundreds of other cars with their lights...which is brighter?

The cop was probably trying to meet his quota (it is the end of the month) and he probably just got annoyed at the lights in his rear view because there was another person behind him who was actually tailing him (who later switched lanes and I got the blame)

So even if I decide to fight this, I have to go all the way to Whitby because I got pulled over in their region.
So let me get your "story" straight...
1. You were driving eastbound on Steeles Avenue
2. In front of you was another car (hereby known as Car A).
3. You were three car lengths behind Car A.
4. Car A was tailgating the police cruiser.
5. Car A switched lanes, and you recieved the ticket.

I do not where why you went off on a tangent about the lights, but your story does not add up. If I misinterpreted it, feel free to correct me.

However, if this story is factual, the ticket can easily be fought, as long as you can prove that you were a good safe distance away
Ontario HTA, 158 (http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90h08_e.htm#BK225)

[EH100501AC]

We're eastbound on Steeles at 1130pm. At the time only 3 cars were present: the undercover cop (white Impala), a beige car (call it Car A), and myself (Silver Impreza).

We are all on the left lane, going the speed limit. I was probably a couple of car lengths behind the Car A who was tailing the cop. After a few minutes of being like this (I'm deciding to stay in the left lane because sometimes the right lane merges back into it anyway), Car A decides to go beside the cop and is now driving on the right lane still at the same speed.

I move up slightly maybe half to a full car length more but still am at least 3 car lengths behind the cop. Car A eventually decides to start going faster, 10 maybe 15km/h over the limit and goes off. The cop goes over into the right lane afterwards. After that I'm thinking maybe he's going after Car A but no. The cop slows down and goes behind me (still in the left lane) and flashes his lights. At this point Car A is about 10-15m ahead of us and actually I saw Car A brake thinking they're gonna get stopped.


-----


My argument is that the cop could be an ******* for these reasons:
- end of the month
--- (quota must be met --> ticket no matter what I do/did)
- cop annoyed as hell because of the lights in his rearview mirror. he doesn't know how to flip it to reduce glare at night time.
--- he even said he supposedly couldn't see my headlamps anymore and i was on his "tailpipe". I swear on my life I wasn't that close to him.
--- and like I was trying to explain before, rural driving with a few cars vs city driving with many cars plus street lights is different. city driving won't appear as bright on your eyes.

[Evil Baby]

We're eastbound on Steeles at 1130pm. At the time only 3 cars were present: the undercover cop (white Impala), a beige car (call it Car A), and myself (Silver Impreza).

We are all on the left lane, going the speed limit. I was probably a couple of car lengths behind the Car A who was tailing the cop. After a few minutes of being like this (I'm deciding to stay in the left lane because sometimes the right lane merges back into it anyway), Car A decides to go beside the cop and is now driving on the right lane still at the same speed.

I move up slightly maybe half to a full car length more but still am at least 3 car lengths behind the cop. Car A eventually decides to start going faster, 10 maybe 15km/h over the limit and goes off. The cop goes over into the right lane afterwards. After that I'm thinking maybe he's going after Car A but no. The cop slows down and goes behind me (still in the left lane) and flashes his lights. At this point Car A is about 10-15m ahead of us and actually I saw Car A brake thinking they're gonna get stopped.


-----


My argument is that the cop could be an ******* for these reasons:
- end of the month
--- (quota must be met --> ticket no matter what I do/did)
- cop annoyed as hell because of the lights in his rearview mirror. he doesn't know how to flip it to reduce glare at night time.
--- he even said he supposedly couldn't see my headlamps anymore and i was on his "tailpipe". I swear on my life I wasn't that close to him.
--- and like I was trying to explain before, rural driving with a few cars vs city driving with many cars plus street lights is different. city driving won't appear as bright on your eyes.


Assuming it's your first offense you can fight it and get it dropped down. Being that it's worth 4 points you might want to look into the expensive places that fight the tickets for you. That being said, even if you get the points off and still get a ticket it will still go against your insurance. Many insurance companies allow for one ticket. If you decide to fight it and get off on it I doubt you'll win because it will be your word against his.


Your best bet is notice to fight it, then when you recieve a court date go in a change itfor whatever reason. Maybe you'll get lucky and the cop wont be able to make it in.

[Flyer]

Arrange a court date, and tell the judge exactly what you posted, minus the quota thing. Even better if you have witnesses.

[EscaBoi]

i use to think that you only had to be 2 car lenghts away no matter how fast you were going (before i drove), but my traffic teacher said that you're suppose to be 1 car length (or was it meter) away for every 10km/hr

[EH100501AC]

The general rule of thumb is 2 seconds away/delay from the vehicle in city driving and 3 seconds away/delay in highway driving. Heard that from the television :D


Anyhow, I am going to arrange a court date it's just that I have to go all the way to Whitby (coming from Markham) when I do have my trial. I'm going to plead not guilty and fight the charge, fine and points. Unfortunately, I had no witnesses. He wrote on the ticket 0 witnesses anyhow. Oh and thanks anyway for the HTA 158.1 link. I looked that one up myself after seeing it on the ticket :D


EDIT: How can I prove that I was going the distance I stated without witnesses?

[Flyer]

The general rule of thumb is 2 seconds away/delay from the vehicle in city driving and 3 seconds away/delay in highway driving. Heard that from the television :D


Anyhow, I am going to arrange a court date it's just that I have to go all the way to Whitby (coming from Markham) when I do have my trial. I'm going to plead not guilty and fight the charge, fine and points. Unfortunately, I had no witnesses. He wrote on the ticket 0 witnesses anyhow. Oh and thanks anyway for the HTA 158.1 link. I looked that one up myself after seeing it on the ticket :D


EDIT: How can I prove that I was going the distance I stated without witnesses?
Conversely, as long as the cop cannot prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you were indeed tailgating him, they should not be able to convict you.

Look into getting a copy of the notes he took. Note any inconsistancies there are. Also, be honest about everything. Judges can smell ******** before you even say it.

[EH100501AC]

Because honestly, I won't lie about it...you know when you really tail someone and yes I have done it before but I swear I was not tailing this car.

Another point I wanted to mention to is that I had no reason to tail him. There was another lane available to me that I could have went to if I wanted to go faster/pass him. Therefore, what would I be tailing him for?

[Alvito]

Because honestly, I won't lie about it...you know when you really tail someone and yes I have done it before but I swear I was not tailing this car.

Another point I wanted to mention to is that I had no reason to tail him. There was another lane available to me that I could have went to if I wanted to go faster/pass him. Therefore, what would I be tailing him for?

Ed, I think you could also try to make the argument that there was a car between you that the officer may have gotten you confused with.

Here is a line of questioning you would follow.

What time was it? 11:30pm
Was it dark? Yes
Could you see the colour of my car in your rearview mirror prior to pulling me over? Should be no.
Do you recall any other cars present on the road at the time? No clue what his answer will be, hope for a yes.
Is it possible you got confused with his car and my own?

Like someone said, ask for disclosure when you receive your court date in the mail. This will help you understand what they have got on you and how to defend against it.

Good luck.

[DragonZealot]

Arrange a court date, and tell the judge exactly what you posted, minus the quota thing. Even better if you have witnesses.

Your words in court is useless. The judge only believes in what the cop said. It is generally not a good ideal for the defendent to give evidence.

The game plan is to inspect the cop's evidence and find any flaw and attack. Getting the disclosure is step one.

[mlc2000]

I had one of these before, with a speeding ticket.

I spoke to the crown before the trial and he asked my how I was going to proceed. I told him I intended on fighting the follow too close.

He asked me what my argument was and I told him : According to the Highway Traffic Act,
there is no 'measureable guidline' as too how far back you should be.
He smiled,and said you'll win.

These tickets are normally handed out at the scene of an accident, or with a speeding ticket.
If there was no accident and no other ticket, you have a very good chance of beating this.
I have this information direct from a friend who's been with the OPP for 15+ years.


According to the Highway Traffic Act

Headway of motor vehicles, generally

158. (1) The driver of a motor vehicle or street car shall not follow another vehicle or street car more closely than is reasonable and prudent having due regard for the speed of the vehicle and the traffic on and the conditions of the highway. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 158 (1).

[EH100501AC]

How do I get what the officer has written down against me?

[TrevorK]

How do I get what the officer has written down against me?

I believe what you are wanting to do is ask the CP for full disclosure.

[162]

Technically, there is supposed to be approx 2 car lenghts between you and the car in front of you .... I am guessing he had less than a cars lenght or the popo didnt have his daily donuts with a double double

Legally, you're way off!

[162]

I had 3 car lengths behind him. We were on Steeles Ave going east towards Pickering/Durham.

This was at 1130ish so it's really dark and no matter where you are driving in a rural or highway (say 404 Newmarket) and no one else is there but you and someone in your rear view at night...it's gonna be the brightest thing ever. Consider this: all dark road and only one car behind you vs city driving, street lights on and hundreds of other cars with their lights...which is brighter?

The cop was probably trying to meet his quota (it is the end of the month) and he probably just got annoyed at the lights in his rear view because there was another person behind him who was actually tailing him (who later switched lanes and I got the blame)

So even if I decide to fight this, I have to go all the way to Whitby because I got pulled over in their region.

Depending upon your speed would determine a safe following distance. Rule of thumb is 3 seconds at highway speed. Tailgating an unmarked PC(LOL!) with 2 car lengths at highway speeds is laughable. For safety, you were in no position to avoid a collision if anything occurred in front of you. Use your head next time.

[EH100501AC]

We weren't going highway speeds.

[gman]

We're eastbound on Steeles at 1130pm. At the time only 3 cars were present: the undercover cop (white Impala), a beige car (call it Car A), and myself (Silver Impreza).


Did this undercover cop car have 2 big red lights (turned off) behind the back seat and under the rear window?

[EH100501AC]

Yep

[gman]

Yep

Then, you should have noticed that was a cop car and stayed away (far away) from it.

[EH100501AC]

Yeah I did but it's not like I had to go all the way to his bumper or even less than 1-2 car lengths away from him to see that.

[1DarkChaos]

ur insurnace will increase if this is your second ticket
if this is ur first one you will be fine
but either way u should go fight it
(remeber don't go to x copper because they rip customers off, im the 2nd victim, just don't go trust me)

[EH100501AC]

But 4 demerit points...still a lot. Not too sure about if it matters that it's my first ticket or not.

[1DarkChaos]

But 4 demerit points...still a lot. Not too sure about if it matters that it's my first ticket or not.

either way u should fight it
first ticket most company will most likely not penalize unless its racing or careless driving, it just count as one ticket

once u hit two u r in high risk zone

i got 3 tickets myself so i did lots of research and they were all dropped except one of them which Xcopper ****ed it up

go fight it and if ur planning to pm me i will give u a company that will dismiss the ticket (as if the ticket was never there so insurance will not see it)

[flamenko]

First, weed out the half truths in the article...

1. You cant go to court, fight it and hope for a reduction (except maybe fine). There is no lesser offence here, they have no control over points and...well... for the most part it is rare to see even a fine reduction on FTC.

2. His evidence is that you were so close that he couldnt see your headlights. Its his word against yours which means that his will prevail in most cases. The point where 'one persons word goes against the other' is changed is the fact that he is trained to be aware of such offences and, most probably, was there for a specific purpose...which was that.

If he was in uniform and in a plain car, he is most likely our looking for aggressive drivers such as follow too close drivers, careless, fail to drive in marked lane etc...

If he was in plain clothes, he is not a traffic cop and you poss will not see him in court. If he was in uniform, is a traffic cop, he will be there.

3. This is a point I see over and over again in these forums and that is that the JP will just dismiss the charge because, or, because its a first offence he/she will go easy on you. You need to open your eyes if you consider these points. A JP must consider the facts and find reasonable doubt. Albeit, there are times when the verdict is questionable for both sides...these are rarities.

As for fighting it, if your going because its your god given right as another keeps saying in all these forums...please. You need to consider all factors which include your time, your dime, parking fees and most importantly, your prospect of winning in the end. The truth is its prob very low for this offence.

The answer 'Fight it' is also a waste of space without adequate reasoning. Sure we will all support you here because we dont have to pay in the end...kind of funny actually.

Now, for your reasoning. You want to tell another JP that it was actually not you but rather another car in front of you that not only went around the cop but sped in the process and that the officer would of made the mistake? Hmmm...if you were a JP who would you believe? They hear it all.... To believe you and find reasonable doubt, that then means the officer in this case is not the smartest at doing his job. Although it would never be said aloud, I dont think the JP will support this.

In the end, use your own judgement and weed out the garbage you read here. There are some valid points but you need to find them. Simple responses like 'Fight it' are actually only written to up the members experience points here on RFD (lol I know I will hear it for this)

Good luck...if your innocent as you portray.

Flamenko