University of Toronto: St. George/Scarborough

[Imusion]

I've been having trouble deciding between the different campuses at the U of T. I plan on going into computer science(software engineering) at the U of T but I don't know if there is a major difference between the St. George campus and Scarborough campus other then location of course. Does one campus have better profs? Does one campus have better resources, labs, facilities? Does anyone have personal experiences in particular with computer science(software engineering) at any of these campuses?

Also has anyone tried getting into the co-op program for computer science(software engineering) at UTSC? Is it really competitive? What were your average grade if you are in the program?

If anyone can maybe give some insight that could help me decide that would be great. I've been trying to weigh out the pros and cons but it has been difficult and I have spent countless hours trying to research this information online but with little luck; so I thought since there are a lot of people from Toronto on RFD, what better way than to ask you guys?

Thanks!
John

[m77m7]

You should edit your post to say Computer Science because some may confuse it with the software engineering option of Engineering. Goto St. George if you want to be challenged more. Once you're in one of those programs you can take courses at both campuses if you wanted to.

[Anessa]

Travel time is a downer if you go to UTSG. The experience is more richer down there though, if you choose to embrace it. And there's better places to eat too.

[Imusion]

Fixed the course description. :)

You said go to St. George if you want to be challenged. Is UTSC more like "laid back" or something?

Umm, so you mean like if you get accepted into the St. George campus you can take courses beginning first year at UTSC combined with the ones at St. George?

Anessa: Yes that has been one of my gripes about the St. George campus. I'll be staying in Markham and to travel down there every single day would be a nightmare. I've seen Toronto traffic and it is crazy. :twisted:

[Anessa]

UTSC is not a cakewalk. Don't let anybody fool you into thinking that...if you want consistent high marks then don't go to U of T for that.

[Imusion]

UTSC is not a cakewalk. Don't let anybody fool you into thinking that...if you want consistent high marks then don't go to U of T for that.

Of course, I just wanted to know because if there is a difference between the quality of learning at the two campuses, I want to be going to the one where I will get the most out of.

[wasserkool]

Of course, I just wanted to know because if there is a difference between the quality of learning at the two campuses, I want to be going to the one where I will get the most out of.

UTSC offers co-op program for comp sci and big names hires from them such as IBM, M$, HP etc..

[tmpz]

I'm third year UTSG computer science software engineer. There's quite a few courses that all 3 campuses share the same course content even though they may have different course codes. For example, CSC108/148 at UTSG is exactly the same course as A08, A48 (not really sure about the UTSC's codes) which has the same assignments for that semester. Difficulty should be the same. Also, professors may teach at one or more campuses. It all comes down to the campus itself and the people around. See what's best for you.

UTSC has Co-op. UTSG has PEY (take a year off and get to work at a company for 12-16 months to work on a project from start to finish).

[Imusion]

I have also been debating whether to try to get into the co-op program. Anyone with experience, was it hard getting in? What was your average when applying to get in? The problem is if I don't get in then I have to go to UTSG and can't take the regular comp-sci at UTSC because they don't seem to allow you to apply for more than one program at UTSC.

It also seems UTSC has a smaller campus, is there any major difference in resources/facilities available? Does UTSG have better resources available than UTSC or are they just about the same? Or is that irrelevant? :cheesygri

PEY, hmm I've never heard about it. Taking a quick look at it, sounds like a very neat option.

[evanx]

I'm third year UTSG computer science software engineer. There's quite a few courses that all 3 campuses share the same course content even though they may have different course codes. For example, CSC108/148 at UTSG is exactly the same course as A08, A48 (not really sure about the UTSC's codes) which has the same assignments for that semester. Difficulty should be the same. Also, professors may teach at one or more campuses. It all comes down to the campus itself and the people around. See what's best for you.

UTSC has Co-op. UTSG has PEY (take a year off and get to work at a company for 12-16 months to work on a project from start to finish).

Marking at UTSC is allegedly more lenient. Of course, this does not apply to auto-marking.

The problem (or the clincher, if you're into that kind of stuff) of CS programs at UofT is that they are surprisingly very theoretical and highly based on math.

[Imusion]

Marking at UTSC is allegedly more lenient. Of course, this does not apply to auto-marking.

The problem (or the clincher, if you're into that kind of stuff) of CS programs at UofT is that they are surprisingly very theoretical and highly based on math.

Yes as I can imagine, it is like that in many places. I figure the software engineering branch would be less theory/math based, or am I wrong?

[evanx]

Yes as I can imagine, it is like that in many places. I figure the software engineering branch would be less theory/math based, or am I wrong?

Less theory and a math course shorter. The programming parts are horrible though, courtesy of one or two brilliant profs.

All CS specialists take the same material up to the 2nd year and it's in the 3rd where people deviate into the branches, such as Fundamental, AI, Info Sys, etc.

[jadoocian]

I think a very important factor is how do you want your work experience.

Do you want to work 4 months, go to school 4 months and back n forth? This also allows you to work for many different companies for short periods of time.(scarborough)

Or do you want to go to school for 3 years and after your 3rd year go on a interhship for 12/16 months for some company? (st. george)

I am currently on my 16 month internship at IBM. I wouldn't reccomend driving downtown every day. If you live far, drive to a subway station, park and subway down. Probably a better option.

good luck. 8 more months till my internship is over.

[evanx]

I think a very important factor is how do you want your work experience.

Do you want to work 4 months, go to school 4 months and back n forth? This also allows you to work for many different companies for short periods of time.(scarborough)

Or do you want to go to school for 3 years and after your 3rd year go on a interhship for 12/16 months for some company? (st. george)

I am currently on my 16 month internship at IBM. I wouldn't reccomend driving downtown every day. If you live far, drive to a subway station, park and subway down. Probably a better option.

good luck. 8 more months till my internship is over.
The PEY option seems stronger but it takes up an additional year. A 4 month stint and a 12/16 month job is quite different. For major companies, they would offer the latter since it gives them both a way to procure cheaper junior work and an opportunity to snatch up future employees through on-job evaluations. This interprets into a more fulfilling experience where one is able to learn more because the company is making more effort to mentor their staff.

[Sprite_TM]

depends on where u live, theres more variety of courses u can take at st. george and sorta limited at utsc. but if u are just planning to just take comptuer sciecne and math and nothing else, then it doesnt reallly matter. oh yah, theres a catch, if u plan to go to st.george, ucan only take a max of 4 credit from other campuses and vice versa. this rule wasnt there 3 years ago.

i dont see the profs more leninet at utsc or maybe its just me. if so, can u mention a course that the prof is more lenient so we can all benefit from it?

[OceanDrop]

i'm in my fourth year in the PHE program at UofT st. george, and i take my optionals at UTSC. i like that UTSC is smaller...always see the same people at the gym, for example. and i do believe that the optionals i've taken there have been easier.
however, the campus is fugly...reminds me of a prison. and their facilities are lacking...they don't have a gymnastics area or a pool. most high schools in scarborough have a pool...probably doesn't make much difference if you're not a swimmer, however i figured if i'm paying $5000 a year for tuition, i should at least have an upgrade from my high school's facilities.
but then again, travelling on the ttc isn't all the fun during rush hour...if your classes aren't before or after rush hour though, you can catch up on sleep.

[evanx]

depends on where u live, theres more variety of courses u can take at st. george and sorta limited at utsc. but if u are just planning to just take comptuer sciecne and math and nothing else, then it doesnt reallly matter. oh yah, theres a catch, if u plan to go to st.george, ucan only take a max of 4 credit from other campuses and vice versa. this rule wasnt there 3 years ago.

i dont see the profs more leninet at utsc or maybe its just me. if so, can u mention a course that the prof is more lenient so we can all benefit from it?

Bretscher and Szamosi come to mind. For some reason, a lot of people (from the anti-calendar) don't like Koudas.

Tough ones at UT are Baumgartner, Toeug, Rosenthal and Woelfel.

Nice ones are Gries, Campbell, Heap and Jackson.

[tharsan]

I'm a fouth-year CS (software eng.) student @ UTSC.
I did the co-op program, and I was accepted with an 80 avg. from high school.

At the end of this term, I will have 19 of the 20 credits required for my Honours Bsc. My only two regrets are not taking more courses downtown, and not living on residence, for at least a term or two.
After taking a couple of courses at StG over the summer for the first time, I think it offers a much better experience overall. But I don't regret coming to UTSC because the co-op program has given me great experience and contacts.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have come to UTSC for the co-op program and taken a couple of full semesters downtown while living on rez (ideally in my second year.)

- Tharsan

[Imusion]

I think a very important factor is how do you want your work experience.

Do you want to work 4 months, go to school 4 months and back n forth? This also allows you to work for many different companies for short periods of time.(scarborough)

Or do you want to go to school for 3 years and after your 3rd year go on a interhship for 12/16 months for some company? (st. george)

I am currently on my 16 month internship at IBM. I wouldn't reccomend driving downtown every day. If you live far, drive to a subway station, park and subway down. Probably a better option.

good luck. 8 more months till my internship is over.
I guess I don't really enjoy the prospect of being tied to an employer for 12/16 months. Having the short work term I think I would enjoy more as I get a broader variety of experiences even if they are short-lived.

Yes my dad was saying that if I go to the downtown campus I would get a ride to the station and I would have to public transit my way there. :cheesygri: If I go to UTSC it is pretty close to where I'm going to be staying and very close to my dad's work so I would be able to basically get a ride all the way there.

i'm in my fourth year in the PHE program at UofT st. george, and i take my optionals at UTSC. i like that UTSC is smaller...always see the same people at the gym, for example. and i do believe that the optionals i've taken there have been easier.
however, the campus is fugly...reminds me of a prison. and their facilities are lacking...they don't have a gymnastics area or a pool. most high schools in scarborough have a pool...probably doesn't make much difference if you're not a swimmer, however i figured if i'm paying $5000 a year for tuition, i should at least have an upgrade from my high school's facilities.
but then again, travelling on the ttc isn't all the fun during rush hour...if your classes aren't before or after rush hour though, you can catch up on sleep.
Coming from Winnipeg, I've always sorta enjoyed the small feel of the place so I have been telling my friends how I would probably feel more at home at UTSC since it's the smallest of the 3 campuses(?)

But I think I've grown sorta sick of "the ghetto school" that I go to here in Winnipeg. Everything is so cheap and it always seems the school likes to cut their way around getting quality resources for teachers and that some teachers seem like they are teaching us half-assed. I'd like to be at a place with decent stuff at least if I'm already paying that much for tuition. But then again if it's just the recreation building your talking about and things that don't really effect teaching then I think I wouldn't really mind.

I'm a fouth-year CS (software eng.) student @ UTSC.
I did the co-op program, and I was accepted with an 80 avg. from high school.

At the end of this term, I will have 19 of the 20 credits required for my Honours Bsc. My only two regrets are not taking more courses downtown, and not living on residence, for at least a term or two.
After taking a couple of courses at StG over the summer for the first time, I think it offers a much better experience overall. But I don't regret coming to UTSC because the co-op program has given me great experience and contacts.

If I had to do it all over again, I would have come to UTSC for the co-op program and taken a couple of full semesters downtown while living on rez (ideally in my second year.)

- Tharsan
Could you elaborate on how StG felt like it gave you a much better overall experience? Were the courses more interesting? Better profs? Also you said you took some courses at StG, is this only available for the summer courses, or can you mix some of your regular term courses at StG as well?

It seems the you really enjoyed the co-op program but the courses were much better at StG. I have always wanted to take the co-op program but if the learning experience at StG was much better than I think I will have to continue to weigh out the pros and cons.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed so far. It is much appreciated. :cheesygri

[jadoocian]

I mentioned earlier I go to UofT downtown andon a 16 month internship at IBM. In case this has confused ppl, what I meant was my 16 month PEY term, for which I am being paid for.

[Luckyinfil]

The correct choice is to go to Waterloo.

[Imusion]

Well jeez, I'm sorry that not everyone can get into/afford to go to a university such as that. Otherwise I wouldn't be here asking about U of T, nuh? :|

Anyways here is what my plan is so far. I was hoping to try to get into the co-op program at UTSC and at the same time take some courses offered at UTSG is possible. My secondary choice would then be to apply for UTSG while taking some courses at UTSC.

I'm still not sure though. It seems from quite a few people from here that the courses at UTSG seem to be "better" and provide a better overall experience, so if I don't make the co-op I'd rather be at UTSG if that is the case. If not though, my problem lies in that you can only apply for one program at UTSC, so I would either have to choose between co-op or regular, whichever I think I have a better chance at getting.

[m77m7]

Well jeez, I'm sorry that not everyone can get into/afford to go to a university such as that. Otherwise I wouldn't be here asking about U of T, nuh? :|

Anyways here is what my plan is so far. I was hoping to try to get into the co-op program at UTSC and at the same time take some courses offered at UTSG is possible. My secondary choice would then be to apply for UTSG while taking some courses at UTSC.

I'm still not sure though. It seems from quite a few people from here that the courses at UTSG seem to be "better" and provide a better overall experience, so if I don't make the co-op I'd rather be at UTSG if that is the case. If not though, my problem lies in that you can only apply for one program at UTSC, so I would either have to choose between co-op or regular, whichever I think I have a better chance at getting.
UTSG is harder than the other campuses overall... there are some cases where certain courses taught by certain profs are harder but it doesn't happen as often. UTSG also has a lot more things to get involved in but its size can also make you feel isolated... it depends on what you are looking for AND the type of personality you have. With any Uni, you get as much out of it as you put in.

[Imusion]

Ok thanks for the feedback everyone. I think it has helped give me better insight into my decisions. :)

I'm going to go do some more research on the co-op program at UTSC and see what are the enrollment figures and generally see how difficult it is to get in. Otherwise I will apply for the regular program at UTSC and put UTSG as my secondary choice.

[cnbc]

The correct choice is to go to Waterloo.

Jeez, that was unneeded. The most popular university discussions on RFD seem to be centered around "Engineering or computer science, UofT vs. UW, PEY vs. co-op". Both are excellent schools but depends on your needs/preferences, one is more suitable than the other.

Your post lacks any evidence to back up your opinion.

The alleged easiness of UTSC is overrated. It shouldn't even be a factor in choosing campuses.

[Kakashi]

I'm going to go do some more research on the co-op program at UTSC and see what are the enrollment figures and generally see how difficult it is to get in. Otherwise I will apply for the regular program at UTSC and put UTSG as my secondary choice.
You can still apply for co-op. If you don't get accepted they'll just bump you down to the regular program.

[awestruck]

Judging from your location, it looks like you will be living on residence. If you do intend to complete a CS degree, it's going to cost you > 10K at UofT downtown. I'm currently in third year taking CS at UofT downtown. I don't live on res and I'm dishing out 7.5K a year. Huge rip, but nothing I can do. All I can say is that you should have other options too aside from CS ie. Commerce or Economics. Lots of people dropped CS after first year and I mean lots. Not trying to discourage you or anything, but you should keep your options open and take courses from other fields in case you decide to drop CS.

The CS program ain't bad, but I don't like the fact that we're learning a ton of material that do not apply to the real world. ie. finding the minimum cover of a functional dependency. Or constructing a BST and doing rotations on them when they're unbalanced.

[Imusion]

You can still apply for co-op. If you don't get accepted they'll just bump you down to the regular program.
Are you sure? I was looking at registration stuff and it looked like they only allow you to apply for one program and it seemed that the co-op and regular were separated so that I could only apply for one of them for UTSC. Or is this done automatically? If anyone else can confirm this, that would be great.

Judging from your location, it looks like you will be living on residence. If you do intend to complete a CS degree, it's going to cost you > 10K at UofT downtown. I'm currently in third year taking CS at UofT downtown. I don't live on res and I'm dishing out 7.5K a year. Huge rip, but nothing I can do. All I can say is that you should have other options too aside from CS ie. Commerce or Economics. Lots of people dropped CS after first year and I mean lots. Not trying to discourage you or anything, but you should keep your options open and take courses from other fields in case you decide to drop CS.

The CS program ain't bad, but I don't like the fact that we're learning a ton of material that do not apply to the real world. ie. finding the minimum cover of a functional dependency. Or constructing a BST and doing rotations on them when they're unbalanced.
Well actually my dad lives in Markham. So when I move over there for University I will be living in Markham, which is relatively close to UTSC as well as where my dad works. UTSG is another thing though haha... :razz:

Yeah the HEAVY theoretical thing is starting to worry me too. It seems it is coming from EVERYONE who is in comp-sci. That has been the same type of comments everyone has been telling me. I hope it's not too bad though. I really enjoy computers, designing/creating things, and I have a solid knowledge of programming but other than comp-sci I really don't know of any other fields really jump out to my interests.

I guess I better decide soon though.. I was hoping to get my application in already. :|

[awestruck]

Yeah the HEAVY theoretical thing is starting to worry me too. It seems it is coming from EVERYONE who is in comp-sci. That has been the same type of comments everyone has been telling me. I hope it's not too bad though. I really enjoy computers, designing/creating things, and I have a solid knowledge of programming but other than comp-sci I really don't know of any other fields really jump out to my interests.

I guess I better decide soon though.. I was hoping to get my application in already. :|

Yeah, there is a lot of theory. It's not so bad if you're really good at it. The easy part is understanding the theories, but when you start applying them to the crazy ass questions they give you on the assignments, it's pretty tough. Well, when I did my application, I applied for CS only. When you're actually in the program and all, you can take courses that are not part of your program, but you have to take note of the restrictions.

[Anessa]

Go for campus visits (informally). It doesn't take too much to sit in on these kinds of classes if you really wanted to. You can get a sense of what you'd encounter and what's expected.

[Imusion]

Go for campus visits (informally). It doesn't take too much to sit in on these kinds of classes if you really wanted to. You can get a sense of what you'd encounter and what's expected.

I'm afraid I can't do that really. *points to location in profile on the left* ;)

[Anessa]

March Break!

[Imusion]

March Break!

lol woah there.. I usually do visit Toronto during March Break(spring break) haha and I believe I will be visiting again this year during spring break. But by then I would have to have my application in already so I figure it would be kinda late? Other than knowing how the classes feel.

[evanx]

Yeah, there is a lot of theory. It's not so bad if you're really good at it. The easy part is understanding the theories, but when you start applying them to the crazy ass questions they give you on the assignments, it's pretty tough. Well, when I did my application, I applied for CS only. When you're actually in the program and all, you can take courses that are not part of your program, but you have to take note of the restrictions.

Do you regret taking CS?

[Kakashi]

Are you sure? I was looking at registration stuff and it looked like they only allow you to apply for one program and it seemed that the co-op and regular were separated so that I could only apply for one of them for UTSC. Or is this done automatically? If anyone else can confirm this, that would be great.
Yup they will always offer you an alternative if you meet their requirements. Most universities I know are like that. For example, if you applied for mech eng at UTSG and wasn't accepted but your marks were good enough for other eng programs, then they'll offer you another program instead of "No, you're not good enough for us :cheesygri"

The safest application is UTSC management since there's 3 different programs to be in for 1st year. If you don't get into co-op then you might be offered the regular program. If you couldn't even get into the regular program, you still have pre-management that anyone can get into .. :D

[Imusion]

Yup they will always offer you an alternative if you meet their requirements. Most universities I know are like that. For example, if you applied for mech eng at UTSG and wasn't accepted but your marks were good enough for other eng programs, then they'll offer you another program instead of "No, you're not good enough for us :cheesygri"

The safest application is UTSC management since there's 3 different programs to be in for 1st year. If you don't get into co-op then you might be offered the regular program. If you couldn't even get into the regular program, you still have pre-management that anyone can get into .. :D

Oh wow well thats good. That was my major worry about applying for co-op and not getting in and having to go downtown for UTSG. Great, thanks for that info. :cheesygri

[Imusion]

Wow I just got this PM from user: metro
do not go to utsc. it is like a community college/highschool. I am a 4th year student here and these have been the 4 worst years of my life. utsc is not a university.

Makes me wonder why he had to PM me to make that statement. I'm guessing thats a semi-trollish message :?:

[x86asm]

Wow I just got this PM from user: metro


Makes me wonder why he had to PM me to make that statement. I'm guessing thats a semi-trollish message :?:

:lol:, the least you could have done was to let the guy keep his anonymity.

[Imusion]

Hey I remember you guys talking about taking courses downtown while you were at UTSC. How exactly would this work if I apply for the co-op program at UTSC? In my first year would I be able to like take some of my courses downtown and some at UTSC? Or is this only an option for the following years? And if not is there a type of limit on the number of credits?

If anyone can answer those questions I would appreciate it.

[m77m7]

Hey I remember you guys talking about taking courses downtown while you were at UTSC. How exactly would this work if I apply for the co-op program at UTSC? In my first year would I be able to like take some of my courses downtown and some at UTSC? Or is this only an option for the following years? And if not is there a type of limit on the number of credits?

If anyone can answer those questions I would appreciate it.

You can take courses elsewhere if the course fits in your schedule... however it won't be easy to fit it in most semesters. If you aren't looking for the big campus feel of St. Geo, then UTM is better.. its a nicer campus than Scarb.

[NetAnt]

PEY is very easy to get in. The average pay for ComSci is like 42k. :D

[Anessa]

Co-op means you have to go to school in the summers at least once...

[manho]

Wow I just got this PM from user: metro


Makes me wonder why he had to PM me to make that statement. I'm guessing thats a semi-trollish message :?:

i remember i vistied UTSC's campus when i was in last year of my highschool. I didn't like it at all. Mainly because the entire campus was consisted of only, like, 3 buildings or so. (Same goes for UTM) The university atmosphere just wasn't really there for me.

[Imusion]

i remember i vistied UTSC's campus when i was in last year of my highschool. I didn't like it at all. Mainly because the entire campus was consisted of only, like, 3 buildings or so. (Same goes for UTM) The university atmosphere just wasn't really there for me.

Yeah I noticed how small the UTSC campus really is. I don't think it would be necessarily bad though. I've been on the University of Manitoba's campus and it is pretty big. There are engineering, medical, nursing, science buildings, and a bunch of others but my reasoning is, if I'm not in nursing, why should I care if that building is not there? It doesn't really affect me. Or maybe I have bad reasoning. :o

[Anessa]

University is what you make it to be, regardless of location or facility.

[Imusion]

University is what you make it to be, regardless of location or facility.

I guess that is true. I talked to some of my friends and they have said the same thing. When I made the question of whether UTSC would be "inadequate" because of the really small campus one of my friends said it wouldn't be inadequate if companies like Microsoft, HP, IBM are hiring there. I guess thats putting things into a better perspective.

I think I will fix up my application this week and get my guidance counselor to review it before the break and submit it. :cheesygri

[Imusion]

I apologize about the triple post but I've got another question and hopefully someone here can answer it. I recently went to talk to my guidance counselor about my OUAC application form and asked whether I would need to send in a transcript at the same time of submitting the OUAC app. She said no and that I would send it in during the second set of applications I have to fill out. Also note that I'm out of province.

I just want to get this confirmed by anyone who has knowledge of this because I don't fully trust my guidance counselor. She wouldn't believe me that comp sci was found in the faculty of science and kept insisting in looking at the faculty of engineering. :lol:

[evanx]

I apologize about the triple post but I've got another question and hopefully someone here can answer it. I recently went to talk to my guidance counselor about my OUAC application form and asked whether I would need to send in a transcript at the same time of submitting the OUAC app. She said no and that I would send it in during the second set of applications I have to fill out. Also note that I'm out of province.

I just want to get this confirmed by anyone who has knowledge of this because I don't fully trust my guidance counselor. She wouldn't believe me that comp sci was found in the faculty of science and kept insisting in looking at the faculty of engineering. :lol:

Computer science at UofT is under Arts and Science.

Computer engineering at UofT is under Engineering.

[simms]

It's probably been mentioned in the last 4 pages, but all engineering at UT is only at UTSG. It's not offered in Scarborough.

As for PEY, it's good if you don't have work experience. But if you have solid work from each summer, you'll have NO problem getting a job after graduation (assuming your GPA and extra-currics are also decent.)