HDDVD-R is nearly dead

[The Digital Dolphin]

That's right, the drives aren't even on the market, and the format is already almost as good as dead.
(not HDDVD, but HDDVD-R specifically)

Before continuing, please read this article:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127489-c,dvdtechnology/article.html

Basically, Toshiba themselves believe that people will not be using their media to do data backups, so they are not moving to release burners on the market quickly. In fact, we only know that they will appear on the market sometime in 2007 (not counting TV recorders launched only in Japan).

As if the late launch isn't bad enough, check out the specs of the first HDDVD recorder:
The HD DVD specs of the first drive will be limited to recordable, write-once HD DVD-R media at 1X, to both single-layer 15GB and dual layer 30GB discs; the drive won't support any of the HD DVD flavors of rewritable discs. However, the drive will support writing to standard DVD: 4X DVD±R (2X for double- and dual-layer), 4X DVD±RW, 3X DVD-RAM, and 16X CD-R.

That's right, 1x HDDVD-R recording speed only, and no HDDVD-RW or HDDVD-RAM. Although it is somewhat backward compatible (I say somewhat because it's painfully slow) with older DVD and CD formats.

To make matters worse, I've heard that the HDDVD-RW standard hasn't even been completed yet, and it may never even happen (but HDDVD-RAM might make it).

So in terms of a writable format, it looks like HDDVD-R is getting almost no support. With not other brands announcing PC burners (or stand alone recorders) other then Toshiba, and considering they're starting with slower recording times and media flexability, I don't think HDDVD-R has a leg to stand on as a recordable format!

This then begs the question, how will the movie format move forward if the writable format fails? Yes, it's not essential, but it certainly helps!!

[Evil Techie]

so will things be leaning towards Blu-Ray from now on?

[BaconMunch]

so you're saying all the King Kong HD-DVD's in production were burned at 1x? I think industrially there's gotta be something more powerful, maybe personal HD-DVD writing would suck, but they can't mass release at 1x so I'm sure there is something else in the workins and if they are to push HD-DVD, this technology would be available to the users as the months go by

[civ@uw]

Any word on the price?

[joshmxpx]

That's right, the drives aren't even on the market, and the format is already almost as good as dead (not HDDVD, but HDDVD-R specifically).

Before continuing, please read this article:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127489-c,dvdtechnology/article.html

Basically, Toshiba themselves believe that people will not be using their media to do data backups, so they are not moving to release burners on the market quickly. In fact, we only know that they will appear on the market sometime in 2007 (not counting TV recorders launched only in Japan).

As if the late launch isn't bad enough, check out the specs of the first HDDVD recorder:


That's right, 1x HDDVD-R recording speed only, and no HDDVD-RW or HDDVD-RAM. Although it is somewhat backward compatible (I say somewhat because it's painfully slow) with older DVD and CD formats.

To make matters worse, I've heard that the HDDVD-RW standard hasn't even been completed yet, and it may never even happen (but HDDVD-RAM might make it).

So in terms of a writable format, it looks like HDDVD-R is getting almost no support. With not other brands announcing PC burners (or stand alone recorders) other then Toshiba, and considering they're starting with slower recording times and media flexability, I don't think HDDVD-R has a leg to stand on as a recordable format!

This then begs the question, how will the movie format move forward if the writable format fails? Yes, it's not essential, but it certainly helps!!

Do you have the comparable specs for Blu-ray, if such burners exist?

[hightechfan]

so will things be leaning towards Blu-Ray from now on?

No this war has not even started.There all some issues with blu ray now its far from perfect.

[The Digital Dolphin]

so you're saying all the King Kong HD-DVD's in production were burned at 1x? I think industrially there's gotta be something more powerful, maybe personal HD-DVD writing would suck, but they can't mass release at 1x so I'm sure there is something else in the workins and if they are to push HD-DVD, this technology would be available to the users as the months go by

Commercial releases are not HDDVD-R, they are HDDVD. I tried to make that distinction in the top post, but obviously failed.

I'm talking about the RECORDABLE MEDIA FORMAT, not the movie format.

[The Digital Dolphin]

Do you have the comparable specs for Blu-ray, if such burners exist?

Umm, yeah... so far there is a Panasonic, a Pioneer, a Sony (an OEM of either the Panasonic or the Pioneer... can't remember right now), a LiteON, and an LG drive out (in various places). All of them record to BD-Rs at 2x, except the LG which records to BD-Rs at 4x. All of them support BD-RE (rewritable BD-Rs) at 2x. All of them support DVDR recording, but the Pioneer doesn't support CD-R recording (the rest however do). This is not counting a few of the OEMs out there also (I think Philips, Asus and Plextor have OEM drives also out or planned to be out shortly).

So basically:
_____________________________________HDDVD-R / BD-R
Max burn speed (single layer, single write):_____1x / 4x
Max burn speed (double layer, single write):____1x / 2x
Max burn speed (Single layer, multi-write):_____N/A / 2x
Max capacity available media (single write):___15GB / 50GB
Number of drives on market by end of 2006:____0 / 4+

[sfu_lifer]

I'll be in whichever camp has the cheapest burners and the cheapest blanks.
Will be a loooong while before we see $0.50 blu-ray/hd-dvd blanks.

[rabbit]

Dudes, don't fall for propaganda from a Blu-ray backer that's blowing things out of proportion.

In other news, there's a *rumour* that Apple may back HD DVD also, instead of just Blu-ray.

[Beradon]

That's right, 1x HDDVD-R recording speed only, and no HDDVD-RW or HDDVD-RAM. Although it is somewhat backward compatible (I say somewhat because it's painfully slow) with older DVD and CD formats.

So in terms of a writable format, it looks like HDDVD-R is getting almost no support. With not other brands announcing PC burners (or stand alone recorders) other then Toshiba, and considering they're starting with slower recording times and media flexability, I don't think HDDVD-R has a leg to stand on as a recordable format!

This then begs the question, how will the movie format move forward if the writable format fails? Yes, it's not essential, but it certainly helps!!It may look like a repeat of what happened with the introduction of DVD. Took awhile before the recordable format came out but adoption of the DVD format was under way with the low pricing of players. It won't bode well for HDDVD as an accepted format across platforms if Toshiba doesn't get its act together. There's already one strike against HDDVD-R and that's the capacity of each blank compared with Blu-ray.

To make matters worse, I've heard that the HDDVD-RW standard hasn't even been completed yet, and it may never even happen (but HDDVD-RAM might make it).I don't mind seeing the RW format disapper. We've all seen the capabilities of the DVD-RAM format and I'm sure there won't be any complaints with having HDDVD-RAM as the only rewritable medium (as long as HD-DVD players can read from it).

[Moot]

Digital Dolphin spreading crap about HD-DVD? Who would have known?:rolleyes:

[The Digital Dolphin]

Digital Dolphin spreading crap about HD-DVD? Who would have known?:rolleyes:

How many times do I have to say this??

I'M TALKING ABOUT THE RECORDABLE MEDIA FORMAT ONLY!!!!!!

*NOT* THE HDDVD DISCS USED FOR MOVIES ALREADY OUT

Honestly, I swear some people only see what they expect/want to see, and prefer to ignore facts to make themselves feel comfortable.

All I'm saying here is that Toshiba is killing the recordable media format of HDDVD by launching it very late, and having it start out very slow compared to the competition.... not to mention the fact that Toshiba themselves doesn't even believe that people would use the media for data backup (which is the #1 use of BD-R media currently sold on the market).

[The Digital Dolphin]

Dudes, don't fall for propaganda from a Blu-ray backer that's blowing things out of proportion.

In other news, there's a *rumour* that Apple may back HD DVD also, instead of just Blu-ray.

BluRay backer or not, I don't ignore the facts ;)

Yes Apple has mentioned the possability of supporting HDDVD in some form at some point. However, my comments were entirely based on the recordable media format, of which Apple makes no specific mention.

[romm2002a]

The war will soon be over with what NEC has planned:
read here: NEC makes dual Blu-ray HD-DVD chip Handles both

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34986

[The Digital Dolphin]

The war will soon be over with what NEC has planned:
read here: NEC makes dual Blu-ray HD-DVD chip Handles both

http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=34986

Which was followed up with this article saying that dual drives were still very unlikely, at least for some time:
http://www.digitimes.com/systems/a20061011PR208.html

Although NEC claims the new dual-standard chips can help reduce costs by 20-30%, Taiwan-based ODD firms said the overall production cost of ODDs using the chip may not be less than that of disc drives using chips that support a single DVD standard since overall costs are determined by other factors, such as the cost of the optical pick-up head (PUH) and yields.

I would also make the argument that the war would not end with dual format drives. Actually, in that case, the war would go on indefinately.... (people would care less, but overall manufacturing costs would stay much higher then if there was a winner)

[rabbit]

not to mention the fact that Toshiba themselves doesn't even believe that people would use the media for data backup (which is the #1 use of BD-R media currently sold on the market).

That stat means as much as the sales figures of commercial HD DVD being triple of Blu-ray. What else are you going to use BD-R for? Duping movies that hardly anyone buys or have players for?

Yeah, everyone's going to want HD discs for data because they're all rushing out to pay $2.00 for DL +R discs.



Honestly, I swear some people only see what they expect/want to see, and prefer to ignore facts to make themselves feel comfortable.

You can say that again :lol: . Okay, well, it's not just for comfort but for propaganda, as mentioned previously.


Yep, it's not good that HD DVD isn't gung ho on R, but do you really think that data storage will be the deciding factor? Let's say BD-R is dominant. What happens if HD DVD movies become dominant and Blu-ray does the UMD? Do you think BD-R isn't going to do a fadeout into obscurity like Beta?



BluRay backer or not, I don't ignore the facts

Of course you don't. You use them for propaganda. Didn't I just say that (twice now)?


Yes Apple has mentioned the possability of supporting HDDVD in some form at some point. However, my comments were entirely based on the recordable media format, of which Apple makes no specific mention.

See, unlike you, I made a point to stress that this was a *rumour* instead of using it to whip the masses into a frenzy.

[Emancipated]

Commercial releases are not HDDVD-R, they are HDDVD. I tried to make that distinction in the top post, but obviously failed.

I'm talking about the RECORDABLE MEDIA FORMAT, not the movie format.

Wise old one. Could you please do a better job (on my request, of course) of a primer on the difference between HD-DVD and HD-DVDR. Laymens are many and varied feasting their uneducated eye balls on your words; myself included.

Is is also not true that movie studios use a different method of transferring known as PRESSING, and not burning as the consumer market is aquainted with?

If I'm reading all this correctly, if the recording format fails, so too will the format. Everyone and their gramma now has a computer with some form of optical recording format. I don't see them being mutually exclusive. Medias of all sorts; be they Hollywood releases or home grown movies of little baby Michael taking his first steps are all interchangable; and they all likely share viewing time on the family computer. That's my take on it.

[autorf]

This then begs the question, how will the movie format move forward if the writable format fails? Yes, it's not essential, but it certainly helps!!

I think this is the greater implication, the effect on which format studios release hddvd or bluray. However why does the movie format moving forward rely on the writable format? And to continue, why does it help?

I would see this as a plus to movie studios, releasing a product that is not easily copied. We know that bottom line is money, movie studios have claimed millions lost to piracy, isn't this a great way to help prevent or at least slow it down?

[dmdsoftware2]

Umm, yeah... so far there is a Panasonic, a Pioneer, a Sony (an OEM of either the Panasonic or the Pioneer... can't remember right now), a LiteON, and an LG drive out (in various places). All of them record to BD-Rs at 2x, except the LG which records to BD-Rs at 4x. All of them support BD-RE (rewritable BD-Rs) at 2x. All of them support DVDR recording, but the Pioneer doesn't support CD-R recording (the rest however do). This is not counting a few of the OEMs out there also (I think Philips, Asus and Plextor have OEM drives also out or planned to be out shortly).

So basically:
_____________________________________HDDVD-R / BD-R
Max burn speed (single layer, single write):_____1x / 4x
Max burn speed (double layer, single write):____1x / 2x
Max burn speed (Single layer, multi-write):_____N/A / 2x
Max capacity available media (single write):___15GB / 50GB
Number of drives on market by end of 2006:____0 / 4+

nice summary

[The Digital Dolphin]

not to mention the fact that Toshiba themselves doesn't even believe that people would use the media for data backup (which is the #1 use of BD-R media currently sold on the market).

That stat means as much as the sales figures of commercial HD DVD being triple of Blu-ray. What else are you going to use BD-R for? Duping movies that hardly anyone buys or have players for?

Yeah, everyone's going to want HD discs for data because they're all rushing out to pay $2.00 for DL +R discs.

You make some good points (which if I may say, is darn well refreshing, since it means I don't have to just repeat the same sentence again and again in big bold red letters :cheesygri ).

Basically, BD-R media is selling. HDDVD-R media is also out, but it's NOT selling (understandably since there are no drives to burn it on except for 1 in Japan). Why does this affect the format in general? Well, would YOU feel confident in a format overall of the recordable media side of it fails?

Also, there's a rumour that at least one major media manufacturer has stopped making HDDVD-R media, and has begun renewed efforts at releasing and promoting BD-R media, due to problems with HDDVD-R media.
(In this case "rumour" means, I know something, but I'm not allowed to give specific details).

One thing is for sure though. Many companies rushed their HDDVD-R out to stores (especially in Europe!), and for Toshiba to basically tell them "too bad, we aren't putting the drive out until sometime next year"... well, you've got to admit that has GOT to be annoying! And at this point, neither company can really afford to lose support from manufacturers (of any kind!). Previously HDDVD-R had been much better off then BD-R because it is much harder to make BD-R then HDDVD-R... but this may reverse completely by the time Toshiba finally decides to launch their drives.


Honestly, I swear some people only see what they expect/want to see, and prefer to ignore facts to make themselves feel comfortable.

You can say that again :lol: . Okay, well, it's not just for comfort but for propaganda, as mentioned previously.

Anytime you have an opinion different to other people, if you try to convince those people of your opinion, you're essentially providing verbal propaganda.

information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation, etc.

In this case, it could be argued I'm trying to help BD-R, or harm HDDVD-R. From my point of view, I'm trying to report the news, and lend my opinion to it. Of course, I'm biased towards my own leanings, and nothing I can do can completely eliminate that bias. It's part of being human.


Yep, it's not good that HD DVD isn't gung ho on R, but do you really think that data storage will be the deciding factor? Let's say BD-R is dominant. What happens if HD DVD movies become dominant and Blu-ray does the UMD? Do you think BD-R isn't going to do a fadeout into obscurity like Beta?


In the long run? No, of course I don't believe data storage will be the deciding factor. But until the price comes down, and piracy can become the main use of the media, I think data storage and professional/corporate use will be the main points for either recordable media format (except for in Japan, where they can actually record off their TVs already). I expect this will be true in Europe and North America for about 1 year or so (but that's a complete guess).


BluRay backer or not, I don't ignore the facts

Of course you don't. You use them for propaganda. Didn't I just say that (twice now)?

As per my comment above, yes. I use the facts to attempt to bring people over to my way of thinking. That's generally considered normal (or at least the proper way of convincing someone to change their mind) as far as I'm aware.


Yes Apple has mentioned the possability of supporting HDDVD in some form at some point. However, my comments were entirely based on the recordable media format, of which Apple makes no specific mention.

See, unlike you, I made a point to stress that this was a *rumour* instead of using it to whip the masses into a frenzy.

I hardly think my comment about Apple whipped anyone into a frenzy... I'm really not even sure why you brought Apple up in the first place. They didn't say or do anything particularily important or shocking, and the rumour you mentioned had nothing to do with the recordable media side of HDDVD specifically, which is what I pointed out... so again, I'm not sure why you brought it up in the first place.

[The Digital Dolphin]

Wise old one. Could you please do a better job (on my request, of course) of a primer on the difference between HD-DVD and HD-DVDR. Laymens are many and varied feasting their uneducated eye balls on your words; myself included.

Please don't call me that...

HDDVD is an optical media format. This format encompasses many different aspects of optical media, including (but not neccissarily limited to):

HDDVD Video Discs; Replicated or pressed HDDVD movies manufactured in large volumes, where the data is physically moulded into the disc upon initial manufacturing.

HDDVD-R media; Burnable or writable HDDVD media, capable of being recorded on compatible HDDVD burners, either for PC or stand alone models for home entertainment systems. This media is manufactured blank, and the data is added by use of a drive's laser by an end user. Once the media is recorded, it cannot be erased or re-recorded.

HDDVD-RW media; Burnable or writable HDDVD media, capable of being recorded on compatible HDDVD burners, either for PC or stand alone models for home entertainment systems. This media is manufactured blank, and the data is added by use of a drive's laser by an end user. This media can be erased, or re-recorded many times.

HDDVD-RAM media; Burnable or writable HDDVD media, capable of being recorded on compatible HDDVD burners, either for PC or stand alone models for home entertainment systems. This media is manufactured blank, and the data is added by use of a drive's laser by an end user. This media can be erased, or re-recorded many times. This media can be erased and re-recorded a great many times, and allows for random access recording, as opposed to only sequential recording (which HDDVD-R and HDDVD-RW use).


If I'm reading all this correctly, if the recording format fails, so too will the format. Everyone and their gramma now has a computer with some form of optical recording format. I don't see them being mutually exclusive. Medias of all sorts; be they Hollywood releases or home grown movies of little baby Michael taking his first steps are all interchangable; and they all likely share viewing time on the family computer. That's my take on it.

Well, I'm not saying the whole HDDVD format will fail if the recordable media side of it fails... but really having both pressed movies AND recordable media, makes the format itself much stronger. The next year is going to be when we find out if there will be a winner between HDDVD and BluRay, or if we're going to end up with 2 formats all the way through, like with DVD+R and DVD-R. So problems at this point are very bad!

[The Digital Dolphin]

I think this is the greater implication, the effect on which format studios release hddvd or bluray. However why does the movie format moving forward rely on the writable format? And to continue, why does it help?

I would see this as a plus to movie studios, releasing a product that is not easily copied. We know that bottom line is money, movie studios have claimed millions lost to piracy, isn't this a great way to help prevent or at least slow it down?

That's a good point, and it's not incorrect. But it's also not a simple matter with a black and white answer. It's all shades of gray..

The movie industry does not want piracy, or at most would like it to be very difficult. So having HDDVD-R fail while HDDVD itself succeeds would be good in that respect. However if BD-R succeeds, then more people will have BD-R drives, which also play back BD-ROM movies. And this is something movie studios cannot ignore.

Let me put it this way:

a = the number of people with HDDVD players
b = the number of people with HDDVD burners

x = the number of people with BluRay players
y = the number of people with BluRay burners

So when movie studios look at the amount of people who can view a certain format, they have to look at the following equation:

a+b = the number of people who can see our movie on HDDVD
x+y = the number of people who can see our movie on BluRay

And since we know that b = 0, and a, x, and y are >1, we get something like this:

a = the number of people who can see our movie on HDDVD
x+y = the number of people who can see our movie on BluRay

Now I don't have any other numbers right now other then that 0 (which doesn't apply to Japan), but I can tell you that having burners out there deffinately give BluRay and edge in market share, and how things will appear to the movie distributors.

[rabbit]

I hardly think my comment about Apple whipped anyone into a frenzy...

You didn't, nor did I say that you were trying to. It was the original topic that you were trying to do so with.


They didn't say or do anything particularily important or shocking, and the rumour you mentioned had nothing to do with the recordable media side of HDDVD specifically, which is what I pointed out... so again, I'm not sure why you brought it up in the first place.

As a foil and as an example of how to present information without it being propaganda.




Could you please do a better job (on my request, of course) of a primer on the difference between HD-DVD and HD-DVDR.

This whole thing in this thread with -R and not recordable confusion stems from this being posted in the wrong forum. Entertainment = movies. This belongs in the Computer Forum, since the talk is slanted towards data.



If I'm reading all this correctly, if the recording format fails, so too will the format.

That's my line of thinking and it seems Toshiba's also, which is why I think they're in no rush to develop HD DVD-R when the non-recordable side needs more work. Why not focus efforts on a better player to help their cause?

Let's see some real stats and figures of how many people are using/buying BD-R now, and then we'll see how important HD recordables are in the market. The other numbers posted are good for wow factor, but for the bottomline, they are irrelevant.

[The Digital Dolphin]

They didn't say or do anything particularily important or shocking, and the rumour you mentioned had nothing to do with the recordable media side of HDDVD specifically, which is what I pointed out... so again, I'm not sure why you brought it up in the first place.

As a foil and as an example of how to present information without it being propaganda.

But I wasn't making a news posting on a news site, I was making a declaration of opinion, furthered by arguments based on quoted news and facts.


Could you please do a better job (on my request, of course) of a primer on the difference between HD-DVD and HD-DVDR.

This whole thing in this thread with -R and not recordable confusion stems from this being posted in the wrong forum. Entertainment = movies. This belongs in the Computer Forum, since the talk is slanted towards data.


Hrm... that's a good point. Although I don't think it's ENTIRELY out of place in Entertainment, but you're right.


If I'm reading all this correctly, if the recording format fails, so too will the format.

That's my line of thinking and it seems Toshiba's also, which is why I think they're in no rush to develop HD DVD-R when the non-recordable side needs more work. Why not focus efforts on a better player to help their cause?

Let's see some real stats and figures of how many people are using/buying BD-R now, and then we'll see how important HD recordables are in the market. The other numbers posted are good for wow factor, but for the bottomline, they are irrelevant.

The only problems Toshiba has with players is getting the parts for them ;)

[ShadowVlican]

haven't read anything about HDDVD burners, but does is the 1X for HDDVD equivalent to 1X DVD? (something like 9x cd = 1x dvd idea)

[Tmayhem]

Don't forget that if the format becomes popular there are other companies that will pick up the standard and make drives for it.

The HDDVD and Bluray battle is just starting, it will take at least another year to have a clear frontrunner. Most of the people won't even be able for now to watch HDDVD or Bluray movies to their full capabilities...

[gordholio]

HD and Blu ray is not even on the radar for me.

[JAC]

a = the number of people with HDDVD players
b = the number of people with HDDVD burners

One of the initial goals of HDDVD was to allow a 2-sided disc, with HDDVD on one side and the current DVD format on the other, allowing regular DVD players to read it. Has this changed?

If not, your equation should read:

a = the number of people with HDDVD players
b = the number of people with HDDVD burners
c = everyone with a legacy DVD player

Therefore, a+b+c > x+y

[The Digital Dolphin]

haven't read anything about HDDVD burners, but does is the 1X for HDDVD equivalent to 1X DVD? (something like 9x cd = 1x dvd idea)

I'm pretty sure 1x for HDDVD means that it takes 2 hours to record a full disc. Usually 1x means recording at real time at the media's expected standard quality.

It got a bit screwed up with DVDs though... single layer DVDs are supposed to be 60min, but brands advertise them at one quality step down (120min), so 1x recording takes 60min on DVDR, and 2x takes 30min, 4x takes 15min, etc (although at 8x and up it no longer halves the time taken).

Anyways, that's generally how the standard for "1x" is set, and all the other speeds are just multiples of 1x ;)

[The Digital Dolphin]

Don't forget that if the format becomes popular there are other companies that will pick up the standard and make drives for it.

The HDDVD and Bluray battle is just starting, it will take at least another year to have a clear frontrunner. Most of the people won't even be able for now to watch HDDVD or Bluray movies to their full capabilities...

I'm pretty sure we'll have a final answer on the "war" by the end of 2007. Either a clear winner, or both formats will continue fighting indefinately.

[The Digital Dolphin]

One of the initial goals of HDDVD was to allow a 2-sided disc, with HDDVD on one side and the current DVD format on the other, allowing regular DVD players to read it. Has this changed?

If not, your equation should read:

a = the number of people with HDDVD players
b = the number of people with HDDVD burners
c = everyone with a legacy DVD player

Therefore, a+b+c > x+y

That might have become the case, except that no movies are really released like that. No one EVER goes for the flip disc idea. It costs too much to create, and it's a pain in the butt for consumers. BluRay had the same idea, but neither camp ever actually did it as far as I'm aware. I certainly haven't seen any anywhere.

[kingsley]

Why can't they make a drive that can burn both formats?

[apvm]

Honestly, I swear some people only see what they expect/want to see, and prefer to ignore facts to make themselves feel comfortable.



Many many times, it happens all the time in stock market.:D

[ShadowVlican]

I'm pretty sure 1x for HDDVD means that it takes 2 hours to record a full disc. Usually 1x means recording at real time at the media's expected standard quality.

It got a bit screwed up with DVDs though... single layer DVDs are supposed to be 60min, but brands advertise them at one quality step down (120min), so 1x recording takes 60min on DVDR, and 2x takes 30min, 4x takes 15min, etc (although at 8x and up it no longer halves the time taken).

Anyways, that's generally how the standard for "1x" is set, and all the other speeds are just multiples of 1x ;)
i see.... thanks for the explanation DD :)

Why can't they make a drive that can burn both formats?
actually, i'd rather them not... consumers only truly benefit when there's only one format, one standard (this eases manufacturing for EVERYONE, and consumers no longer have to learn pro/cons of different standards, ETC....)

[johnwayne]

Also, there's a rumour that at least one major media manufacturer has stopped making HDDVD-R media, and has begun renewed efforts at releasing and promoting BD-R media, due to problems with HDDVD-R media.
(In this case "rumour" means, I know something, but I'm not allowed to give specific details).


wtf?
Don't worry I won't rat you out

[rabbit]

>> One of the initial goals of HDDVD was to allow a 2-sided disc, with HDDVD on one side and the current DVD format on the other, allowing regular DVD players to read it. Has this changed?

> That might have become the case, except that no movies are really released like that. No one EVER goes for the flip disc idea. It costs too much to create, and it's a pain in the butt for consumers. BluRay had the same idea, but neither camp ever actually did it as far as I'm aware. I certainly haven't seen any anywhere.


Yeah, see, if you haven't had your head buried in the Blu-ray (data) beach, you would know that there are HD DVD/DVD combo discs available now. It says Combo on the burgundy banner at the top.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/miscgfx/covershd/breakfastclubhddvd.jpg
(although this particular disc hasn't been released yet, but there are others)


edit// deleted some stuff because I read it wrong :)

[rb.]

I would bank on Blu-ray being in the industry myself. However, you never know with these format wars. I do know that LG's 4x drive will burn a 25GB Single Layer BD-R disc in approx. 22 minutes.

Plus the storage capacity will be almost double (50GB DL) for Blu-ray then that of HD (30GB)

Anyway, who knew that Beta (the better format) would beat out VHS? I guess we'll all find out over the next few months.

Good string.

rb.

[rabbit]

Plus the storage capacity will be almost double (50GB DL) for Blu-ray then that of HD (30GB)

Cost is a factor too.

But hey, look at the old Iomega Zip drives vs Syquest's EZ Flyer.
Zip = 100MB fast floppy
Syquest = 230MB "hard" drive
Syquest speeds were twice that of Zip (although initially at twice the cost, but you get twice the storage capabilities too)

The better format didn't win here.

[The Digital Dolphin]

Plus the storage capacity will be almost double (50GB DL) for Blu-ray then that of HD (30GB)

Cost is a factor too.

But hey, look at the old Iomega Zip drives vs Syquest's EZ Flyer.
Zip = 100MB fast floppy
Syquest = 230MB "hard" drive
Syquest speeds were twice that of Zip (although initially at twice the cost, but you get twice the storage capabilities too)

The better format didn't win here.

You're right, we often have situations where the better format doesn't win... a little TOO often if you ask me ;)

[Beradon]

But hey, look at the old Iomega Zip drives vs Syquest's EZ Flyer.
Zip = 100MB fast floppy
Syquest = 230MB "hard" drive
Syquest speeds were twice that of Zip (although initially at twice the cost, but you get twice the storage capabilities too)

The better format didn't win here.true but time to market was clearly in iomega's favor. If HDDVD can get players and discs straight onto shelves within the next few months, they may have an advantage. I will also see the manufacturers will start influencing the consumer market by price bundling their line of HDTV sets with the disc players.
Sony, Panasonic, Hitachi, Philips, Mitsubishi, LG, Samsung, Sharp, Dell & Pioneer have the advantage here as they also sell HDTV sets.
Toshiba & Sanyo are the only HDTV display manufacturers I can find one in the HDDVD camp.

I say we boycott both formats and force the Blu-ray and HDDVD camps back to the table and work on releasing one standard format. ;)

[The Digital Dolphin]

>> One of the initial goals of HDDVD was to allow a 2-sided disc, with HDDVD on one side and the current DVD format on the other, allowing regular DVD players to read it. Has this changed?

> That might have become the case, except that no movies are really released like that. No one EVER goes for the flip disc idea. It costs too much to create, and it's a pain in the butt for consumers. BluRay had the same idea, but neither camp ever actually did it as far as I'm aware. I certainly haven't seen any anywhere.


Yeah, see, if you haven't had your head buried in the Blu-ray (data) beach, you would know that there are HD DVD/DVD combo discs available now. It says Combo on the burgundy banner at the top.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/miscgfx/covershd/breakfastclubhddvd.jpg
(although this particular disc hasn't been released yet, but there are others)


edit// deleted some stuff because I read it wrong :)

Hrm you're right. Browsing through 70 or so titles I found exactly 6 HDDVD movies with DVD on the flip side. They all cost between $43 and $47, as opposed to most similar movies (not new releases) which seem to go for ~$30-$35 (based on TheCNL.com's pricing).

All biases aside, I think this is an incredibly stupid idea. I certainly hope BluRay isn't doing this also. I hate flip disc DVDs, and I don't think they're any better in HiDef (regardless of what camp they're from).

If anyone's interested, the cost of making flip discs is a little more then 2x the cost of a single disc, and the failure rate is much higher during production. That also means you have a much higher chance of buying a dud, *AND* working discs have a much higher chance of being damaged during regular day to day wear and tear. You also can't have a nice silkscreened label, since both side are strictly content.

[rabbit]

true but time to market was clearly in iomega's favor.

Hmm, wasn't Syquest's 135MB version available before Zip drives? Oh well, I guess it's not really important, as both are dead, dead, dead!


I say we boycott both formats and force the Blu-ray and HDDVD camps back to the table and work on releasing one standard format.

That's my choice also. I really don't know why people get so heated over one or the other. Yeah, sure, I prefer to see Sony lose, but if Blu-ray comes out on top, so what? I'm not planning to buy either anytime soon.



Hrm you're right. Browsing through 70 or so titles I found exactly 6 HDDVD movies with DVD on the flip side. They all cost between $43 and $47, as opposed to most similar movies (not new releases) which seem to go for ~$30-$35 (based on TheCNL.com's pricing).

Amazon.com has sixteen listed (which includes upcoming releases). I compared the price for Firewall and Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang (combo vs Blu-ray), and the combo was $4USD more.

Here, let's do stat sensationalism, just for fun
HD DVD/DVD Combo Disc = 16
Blu-Ray/DVD Combo Disc = 0! Goose EGG!

16 > 0 = more sales, more people playing HD DVD!
Blu-ray/DVD Combo Disc isn't just nearly dead -- it IS dead (well, it sure isn't alive, anyways!)
The war is over!
Dolphin's coming home!


I hate flip disc DVDs

I prefer them, since it takes up less space. I haven't had problems playing double-sided discs, DVDPlus or otherwise. It's nice to have that choice if I was interested in buying HD discs. The funny thing is that people who have problems are the higher end players. Let's hear it for $50 Malatas!


You also can't have a nice silkscreened label, since both side are strictly content.

True, but what do you buy the DVD for? To stare at the disc or to watch the contents?

[bmaz]

Pretty good discussion going on here, but I could help but notice, The Breakfast Club!
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/miscgfx/covershd/breakfastclubhddvd.jpg
Is that something we really want to see in HD, if you were in your teens when that came out you would be in your mid to late 30s now.
Is that the market that HD is aimed at, and even if it is, it's The Breakfast Club.
HD is meant for special effects action movies, I am not gonna run out to purchase a $500 player to see The Breakfast Club[/Rant].

[Aero]

so you're saying all the King Kong HD-DVD's in production were burned at 1x? I think industrially there's gotta be something more powerful, maybe personal HD-DVD writing would suck, but they can't mass release at 1x so I'm sure there is something else in the workins and if they are to push HD-DVD, this technology would be available to the users as the months go by

yeah, the industry does not burn the disc they're stamped.

[sixer]

It won't die, still early.

In terms of HDDVD, it's way outselling Blu-ray. Blu-ray is going, going, gone.

[The Digital Dolphin]

Pretty good discussion going on here, but I could help but notice, The Breakfast Club!
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/miscgfx/covershd/breakfastclubhddvd.jpg
Is that something we really want to see in HD, if you were in your teens when that came out you would be in your mid to late 30s now.
Is that the market that HD is aimed at, and even if it is, it's The Breakfast Club.
HD is meant for special effects action movies, I am not gonna run out to purchase a $500 player to see The Breakfast Club[/Rant].

I've wondered that about a number of "HD" releases from both camps...

[The Digital Dolphin]

It won't die, still early.

In terms of HDDVD, it's way outselling Blu-ray. Blu-ray is going, going, gone.

Hrm... I'm not sure that's 100% fair to say. The players for HDDVD are selling better. The Movies are selling a little better then BluRay as well. But BluRay burners and BluRay media are selling much faster as anticipated. TDK had to release a 50pc spindle of BD-Rs already!!! :-0 (yeah, I thought they were insane for that, but apparently there is a big demand from businesses in the USA).

So I wonder what would happen if BD-R succeeds, and HDDVD-R fails (which I still think is pretty much inevitable now). But HDDVD as a movie format succeeds and BluRay as a movie format fails? Kind of makes you wonder about how that would affect the PS3 and game manufacturing. It's be much easier on MS though when they release their internal HDDVD system with game support ;)

[The Digital Dolphin]

I say we boycott both formats and force the Blu-ray and HDDVD camps back to the table and work on releasing one standard format.

That's my choice also. I really don't know why people get so heated over one or the other. Yeah, sure, I prefer to see Sony lose, but if Blu-ray comes out on top, so what? I'm not planning to buy either anytime soon.

I wish that was a likely solution, since I would be right behind you! But I don't think Toshiba is going to back down any more then Panasonic, TDK and Sony are.


Hrm you're right. Browsing through 70 or so titles I found exactly 6 HDDVD movies with DVD on the flip side. They all cost between $43 and $47, as opposed to most similar movies (not new releases) which seem to go for ~$30-$35 (based on TheCNL.com's pricing).

Amazon.com has sixteen listed (which includes upcoming releases). I compared the price for Firewall and Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang (combo vs Blu-ray), and the combo was $4USD more.

I was looking at released titles only.


Here, let's do stat sensationalism, just for fun
HD DVD/DVD Combo Disc = 16
Blu-Ray/DVD Combo Disc = 0! Goose EGG!


Thanks for taking the time to check if BluRay had any. Now I can continue buying their movies without fear of accidentily buying one with a DVD stuck on it's a$$ :cheesygri


16 > 0 = more sales, more people playing HD DVD!
Blu-ray/DVD Combo Disc isn't just nearly dead -- it IS dead (well, it sure isn't alive, anyways!)
The war is over!
Dolphin's coming home!


I think you might be sinking a bit low on this one... let's try not to get childish here please.


I hate flip disc DVDs

I prefer them, since it takes up less space. I haven't had problems playing double-sided discs, DVDPlus or otherwise. It's nice to have that choice if I was interested in buying HD discs. The funny thing is that people who have problems are the higher end players. Let's hear it for $50 Malatas!


That's your opinion and your welcome to it :)


You also can't have a nice silkscreened label, since both side are strictly content.

True, but what do you buy the DVD for? To stare at the disc or to watch the contents?

Actually, if I just want content, I'd download it. I buy product for the full package. The extra features, the nice packaging, the proper silkscreened labels... EVERYTHING. I've even re-purchased the same stuff on occasion when it comes out with better packaging or added materials.

[Beradon]

Hrm... I'm not sure that's 100% fair to say. The players for HDDVD are selling better. The Movies are selling a little better then BluRay as well. But BluRay burners and BluRay media are selling much faster as anticipated. TDK had to release a 50pc spindle of BD-Rs already!!! :-0 (yeah, I thought they were insane for that, but apparently there is a big demand from businesses in the USA). I'm not surprised by that. Business have traditionally adopted a format that serves their data backup needs. Examples would be WORM drives, DLT & DAT tapes, ect..
They don't need to wait for widely accepted standards when it comes to data backup equipement and media. Heck, I've seen companies migrate often when the economies of scale factor in and their old hardware gets written off. Bluray's offering of 50GB per disc is just too hard to resist in terms of capacity. I doubt this alone would determine Bluray's dominance in the consumer market.

So I wonder what would happen if BD-R succeeds, and HDDVD-R fails (which I still think is pretty much inevitable now). But HDDVD as a movie format succeeds and BluRay as a movie format fails? Kind of makes you wonder about how that would affect the PS3 and game manufacturing. It's be much easier on MS though when they release their internal HDDVD system with game support ;)Sony's PS3 would still win out if Bluray fails as the standard format. In fact Sony would be pleased to know that no one would be able to fully pirate ps3 games. Security through obscurity.

[JAC]

Bluray's offering of 50GB per disc is just too hard to resist in terms of capacity.

I wonder; 50GB is pretty puny when you're dealing with servers. What admin is going to want to swap discs? And why consider DVD backup at all when you can get tape libraries with 1400TB native support?

BR might make some headway in the concumer market, sure, but IMHO the driving factor will be "backing up" movies. And if there's no movies to copy, then why buy the drive?

[rabbit]

Is that something we really want to see in HD, if you were in your teens when that came out you would be in your mid to late 30s now.
Is that the market that HD is aimed at, and even if it is, it's The Breakfast Club.
HD is meant for special effects action movies, I am not gonna run out to purchase a $500 player to see The Breakfast Club

I think that 30ish age group is the target that's most likely going to buy HD, but I agree that old movies in HD aren't worth paying $30 for.




I think you might be sinking a bit low on this one... let's try not to get childish here please.

It's not being childish. It's being sarcastic. The original subject of this thread is a farce, starting with the topic title.



I was looking at released titles only.

Of which there are more than six HD DVD/DVD combo discs available now. In any case, it's still a new format, so what do you expect? As if the selection of HD DVD and Blu-ray movies combined isn't pathetic.



Actually, if I just want content, I'd download it. I buy product for the full package.

Sure, I like having the original too, with the trap sheets, but how the disc looks isn't a priority. I would sooner have a season of a TV show use four D18s than use eight D9s.

But my opinion and yours do not matter here, as neither of us are interested in buying HD DVDs.

[The Digital Dolphin]

I wonder; 50GB is pretty puny when you're dealing with servers. What admin is going to want to swap discs? And why consider DVD backup at all when you can get tape libraries with 1400TB native support?

BR might make some headway in the concumer market, sure, but IMHO the driving factor will be "backing up" movies. And if there's no movies to copy, then why buy the drive?

But tape drives are slow as hell, and don't allow for random access. That's the whole reason why optical media was such a hit in the first place.

[The Digital Dolphin]

I'm not surprised by that. Business have traditionally adopted a format that serves their data backup needs. Examples would be WORM drives, DLT & DAT tapes, ect..
They don't need to wait for widely accepted standards when it comes to data backup equipement and media. Heck, I've seen companies migrate often when the economies of scale factor in and their old hardware gets written off. Bluray's offering of 50GB per disc is just too hard to resist in terms of capacity. I doubt this alone would determine Bluray's dominance in the consumer market.

Nah, not an overall dominance. But it does help to increase production volumes, and push for lower cost and faster technology movement. When HD content finally becomes the norm, in 2012 or whatever they now think it's going to be, wouldn't you rather it took only 5 to 8 minutes to burn your copies instead of 30min-60min?


Sony's PS3 would still win out if Bluray fails as the standard format. In fact Sony would be pleased to know that no one would be able to fully pirate ps3 games. Security through obscurity.

Actually, I think it would probably bankrupt Sony if BluRay as a general format fails. Probably TDK as well, unless the blank media survives quite well without the movie end.

[The Digital Dolphin]

I think you might be sinking a bit low on this one... let's try not to get childish here please.

It's not being childish. It's being sarcastic. The original subject of this thread is a farce, starting with the topic title.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I thought I still was allowed to have an opinion on things. Did I miss a memo?



I was looking at released titles only.

Of which there are more than six HD DVD/DVD combo discs available now. In any case, it's still a new format, so what do you expect? As if the selection of HD DVD and Blu-ray movies combined isn't pathetic.

As I said, I only looked at The CNL's stock page. They only had 6 out of all the listings I checked, and I checked every listing I could click on. It was not meant to be an exact de-facto study on the matter, but a random sampling from a local distributor who handles the format at least decently in my estimation.


Actually, if I just want content, I'd download it. I buy product for the full package.

Sure, I like having the original too, with the trap sheets, but how the disc looks isn't a priority. I would sooner have a season of a TV show use four D18s than use eight D9s.

I can deffinately understand where you're coming from on this one. With nearly 450 titles in my collection now, I'm quickly running out of space! I really hope that someone decides to release TV seasons on single or double BD or HDDVD packs, even at just standard DVD resolution. Yes, I would probably break down and buy HDDVD content if they started doing this... (I'm really running out of room!)


But my opinion and yours do not matter here, as neither of us are interested in buying HD DVDs.

Well other members of the forum might appreciate hearing our opinions on these matters? I'm sure you must agree that this thread has at LEAST provoked some thought from people on the subject of HD content and recordable media. :)

[Ojam]

Does the average consumer really need that much storage (right now atleast) it doesn't seem like DL-DVD is even really being picked up fast? Maybe in another 5 or so years, but right now I don't think there is a huge demand for "normal" consumers to buy anything over 4.7gb media.

[bmaz]

Does the average consumer really need that much storage (right now atleast) it doesn't seem like DL-DVD is even really being picked up fast? Maybe in another 5 or so years, but right now I don't think there is a huge demand for "normal" consumers to buy anything over 4.7gb media.
Righhhhhhhht?

When was the last time you purchased a DVD boxset of a series?
Heck look at LOTR with the extended versions, I believe that its like 3 DVDs per trilogy if I am not mistaken, standard definition as well.
The fact that DVD/DL isn't popular has everything to do with its cost compared to DVD/SL.

[Ojam]

Righhhhhhhht?

When was the last time you purchased a DVD boxset of a series?
Heck look at LOTR with the extended versions, I believe that its like 3 DVDs per trilogy if I am not mistaken, standard definition as well.
The fact that DVD/DL isn't popular has everything to do with its cost compared to DVD/SL.

What does that have to do with recordable media? LOTR extended cuts are each 4 disc double layered sets. The last DVD series I bought would have been South Park Season 8 (about a month and a half ago) last box set being the new Criterion 3 disc Brazil along with the new Criterion 3 disc Seven Samurai. If there was consumer demand for dl discs then the price would be dropping a lot faster then it is. The average consumer at the moment has no need for anything over 4.7gb, they don't even use the 4.7gb they buy. Anything over that is strictly niche "power user" or for an office environment. Joe Blow that buys his DVD previously viewed a BB doesn't back them up. He doesn't back up his computer data either, heck he doesn't even keep his virus deffinitions up to date.

[rabbit]

Well, I can use a bit more storage than 4.7GB. 13 Episodes of a TV show doesn't quite fit ;). It's too bad that HD DVD-R is nearly dead (I guess "nearly dead" is a euphemism for "they won't come out until sometime in 2007") because I really hate splitting up a season or having to cut bits off the Xvid.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I thought I still was allowed to have an opinion on things. Did I miss a memo?

What's the problem? You expressed your opinion and I expressed mine. Are you suggesting that it's okay for you to express your opinion but when someone else expresses their opinion to your opinion, they're trying to suppress you from speaking your opinion? (great sentence or what :D?)

[The Digital Dolphin]

Well, I can use a bit more storage than 4.7GB. 13 Episodes of a TV show doesn't quite fit ;). It's too bad that HD DVD-R is nearly dead (I guess "nearly dead" is a euphemism for "they won't come out until sometime in 2007") because I really hate splitting up a season or having to cut bits off the Xvid.


I'm sorry you feel that way. I thought I still was allowed to have an opinion on things. Did I miss a memo?

What's the problem? You expressed your opinion and I expressed mine. Are you suggesting that it's okay for you to express your opinion but when someone else expresses their opinion to your opinion, they're trying to suppress you from speaking your opinion? (great sentence or what :D?)

Well I seem to get the feeling you'd like to hold me to a completely different set of rules then what other members on this forum are held to. You pretty much told me I wasn't allowed to voice my opinion on things back when you were on your propaganda crusade. If you look through the posts, I have never tried to tell you to stop talking about your own opinion on things, and the only time I've asked you to stop anything was when I felt you were going a little too far, and bordering on personal attacks. So by all means, please have an opinion, post it, discuss it, argue it to your hearts content! But please show the same respect to everyone else (in this case me ;) )

[d_jedi]

With the burners going for about $1000 a pop (on blankmedia.ca), and -r discs at $20, I don't think most people will be adopting this any time soon. So I don't see Toshiba's delay as being a death knell.

OTOH, the winning format is going to need to have a recordable option.. computer users aren't going to buy (say) a BR drive to play discs, and a HD drive to write them.

[gordholio]

DVD's have been the standard for only the last 6 years perhaps.
I think a lot of people are going to resist changing over to something new again.
By the time a new format is mainstream, it might not even be Blu-ray or HD-DVD.
DVD's suit the needs for most people. When HD becomes universal in 3 years or so, then I can see people going for something better than DVD's.

[Bordello]

How much is Sony paying you to spread their propaganda?