Ford cutting more jobs

[MrDisco]

Ford is shutting down their engine plant in Windsor as part of a 10,000 job reduction in North America. 700 direct jobs will be lost in that area as a result. On a positive note, the Oakville plant was awarded the job to build the new 7 passenger cross-over vehicle based on the Ford Fairlane concept, while the St.Thomas operation is pickup production of the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis after the current Michigan plant closes.

CAW's leader Buzz Hargrove blames the big 3's current crisis on Asian automakers and lawmakers.

"One in four vehicles that you see on the roads in Canada are built outside of North America, and shipped into North America from countries that absolutely refuse to allow us to build vehicles in North America and sell in their market," he said, blaming inaction by the federal government.

"Until we find a way to have fair trade with Asia, you're going to continue to have the kind of announcement we had from Ford Motor Co. and you're going to have them from General Motors and DaimlerChrysler"

I think Buzz has a valid point on one hand. It is hardly fair to allow companies like Korea and Japan to allow their vehicles to be exported to our markets, yet the same openness is not given to domestic manufacturers. I know I know everyone here will simply bash domestic automakers but there really should be a fair trade playing field, regardless of what you think of the quality of the product. Of course this doesn't excuse the mess the domestic makers have created by not giving consumers what they want (reliable, energy efficient vehicles) so on that note I can't be completely on-side with the CAW. Ultimately its an unfair proposition to have loyal workers take the brunt of the failures created by executives and government officials.

[seftonm]

One in four vehicles being built offshore sounds extremely high. The best selling Asian vehicles are built here, most North American vehicles are built in North America.

[MizTEcK]

^seconded, but it is true that fair trade doesnt really exist, we only have "fairer" trade. but that's no excuse to blame everything on that issue for the big 3... they first need to straighten up their own products than anything else. Look at Chrystler for example, they're on the right track with innovative products, they were the only one operating without loss in recent years

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

Haha! Ford is losing money because they're not allowed to sell NA made cars to Japan?

Yeah, I guess Canadians are just too stupid to see how great the cars they make are. Only the Japanese can truly understand and appreciate the awesomeness of the Crown Vic or Grand Marquis or what ever POS they were making! :lol:

OK that's not really true because the Crown Vicisn't a POS, but actually a pretty good car, just not really very useful to anyone besides cops and cabbies, but you know what I mean.

[belfour]

Curious what Buzz has in his driveway (or at the garage).. :lol:

[jiffylube1024]

Those other countries are doing Ford a favour by not allowing Ford to sell to the Asian market. Does Hargrove have any idea how Xenophobic many Asian countries are? He should look to Xbox sales for a good indication. Unless it's a supercar or something truly unique, the asian market isn't buying it.

And to blame Asian automakers for their problems over here is just sour grapes. Maybe if Ford started building better, more reliable cars they'd sell more. Not like we're all brainwashed, we just realize that 5 years down the road a Toyota or Honda is still worth good money, while a Ford is worth nothing.

[Slippery_Pete]

Well you see some years back Toyota and Honda etc.. were allowed to sell (dump) vehicles into the North American market fairly (well let's say fair to them). The same wasn't true of the B3 to Asia. Well you see now the Japanese market has the NA market + the Japanese market while the NA manufactures are stuck in NA. Therefore Japanese have a global market while B3 are stuck in NA. Let me see how you conduct your business while your competitors have a large market available to them and you don't. Well innovate why don't you...oh ya, you forgot, it doesn't matter what you do they ain't buying what you make. They'll copy it, and sell it back to you, but they ain't buying it.

[Slippery_Pete]

Those other countries are doing Ford a favour by not allowing Ford to sell to the Asian market. Does Hargrove have any idea how Xenophobic many Asian countries are? He should look to Xbox sales for a good indication. Unless it's a supercar or something truly unique, the asian market isn't buying it.

And to blame Asian automakers for their problems over here is just sour grapes. Maybe if Ford started building better, more reliable cars they'd sell more. Not like we're all brainwashed, we just realize that 5 years down the road a Toyota or Honda is still worth good money, while a Ford is worth nothing.

Yes you are brainwashed. A Toyota and a Honda is worth more regardless of reliablility, it is worth more due to preception. Whether that perception is correct or not. You see if Toyota started making bags of ***** from this day forward, you and everyone else would still pay more for it, for some period on. Only when people started to realize they bought a bag of ***** a few years down the road would people stop paying premium. You are brainwashed because you can't think for yourself. You heard about the 500,000km Toyota...well I have heard about the opposite, and the 500,000km Ford and GM and Chrysler. But does that mean I won't buy a Toyota and I will buy a B3? No. Case by case. Not just because its Asian. Because that's just ********.


*EDIT* Maybe I should buy a Hyundai because they are sort of like Japanese. They eat lots of rice and have dark hair and slanted eyes, therefore their rip-off sub-par cars must be the same...It don't work that way people. They have some decent cars and they have some that aren't. It has nothing to do with region of origin, but with the car itself. I will never buy a car based on where its company is hq'd, but based on its value.

[gilboman]

Well you see some years back Toyota and Honda etc.. were allowed to sell (dump) vehicles into the North American market fairly (well let's say fair to them). The same wasn't true of the B3 to Asia. Well you see now the Japanese market has the NA market + the Japanese market while the NA manufactures are stuck in NA. Therefore Japanese have a global market while B3 are stuck in NA. Let me see how you conduct your business while your competitors have a large market available to them and you don't. Well innovate why don't you...oh ya, you forgot, it doesn't matter what you do they ain't buying what you make. They'll copy it, and sell it back to you, but they ain't buying it.

the fallacy with your argument is that cars are commodities in your argument when they are not. the B3 make crap cars compared to the japanese, regardless of their access to asia or not, nobody there would buy junk. consumers in asia are even more picky than n.americans when it comes to cars, if B3 can't even compete at home..what makes you think they would have any chance overseas?

B3 built cars more suited for N.AMerican and still lose big time.

[gordholio]

Hyundai, sub-par? :lol:
The American automakers really should be taking long looks at how Toyota, Honda and Hyundai have done so well, instead of complaining.
Maybe they could learn something if they can get past their egos.

Some people in North America got fed up with the junk the big three were offering in the Eighties (especially) and turned to Toyota and Honda and other Japanese car makers.
Then, they discovered that these were well made cars and they stuck with them; more people learned and the Japanese car sales went way up and they built plants in North America.
Same thing is now happening with Hyundai and the American cars are being left behind.
Until the (used to be) big three learn and change their ways with better quality and better designs, the Asian car makers will continue to take away more and more sales.
The (used to be) big three have only themselves to blame; North America was their market and they let it slip away.

[gilboman]

Yes you are brainwashed. A Toyota and a Honda is worth more regardless of reliablility, it is worth more due to preception. Whether that perception is correct or not. You see if Toyota started making bags of ***** from this day forward, you and everyone else would still pay more for it, for some period on. Only when people started to realize they bought a bag of ***** a few years down the road would people stop paying premium. You are brainwashed because you can't think for yourself. You heard about the 500,000km Toyota...well I have heard about the opposite, and the 500,000km Ford and GM and Chrysler. But does that mean I won't buy a Toyota and I will buy a B3? No. Case by case. Not just because its Asian. Because that's just ********.


*EDIT* Maybe I should buy a Hyundai because they are sort of like Japanese. They eat lots of rice and have dark hair and slanted eyes, therefore their rip-off sub-par cars must be the same...It don't work that way people. They have some decent cars and they have some that aren't. It has nothing to do with region of origin, but with the car itself. I will never buy a car based on where its company is hq'd, but based on its value.

and why do you think a toyota/honda is worth more regardless? because of a track record of consistently being much more reliable and higher quality than B3 offerings, this is not opinion. it is fact as shown in countless studies.

hence, the toyotas/hondas have used their past record to build a positive perception of their products while the B3 did vice versa. decades of POS cars have caused public to lose faith in them. and this is justifibly deserved as well.

[sixer]

I'd buy a Ford anyday over a Mexican Assembled VW

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

This is the head of the CAW talking. He's not talking about Ford (who does sell cars in Japan, they're called MAZDAs. Mazda and Volvo makes up like 40% of Ford's sales world wide) or even NA made cars sold in Japan, i.e. Toyota Voltz/Pontiac Vibe, All the BMW/Benz stuff made in the US and sold in Japan, like Z3/Z4, X3/X5, M-class Benz, or Subaru Outback, called the Legacy outback in Japan and built in Lafayette, Indiana, or Acura MDX, sold as Honda MDX in Japan and built in Alliston, Ontario.......etc etc etc. They didn't move workers from Japan/Germany to build these cars.

He's only talking about cars made in NA at CAW/UAW plants, in which case he is right. There are no UAW produced vehicles currently sold in Japan, that I know of, not counting the Toyota Cavalier from years back.

I'm pretty sure NA auto workers are just as smart and hard working as autoworkers anywhere else. Can you think of any other reasons? :lol:

[Slippery_Pete]

the fallacy with your argument is that cars are commodities in your argument when they are not. the B3 make crap cars compared to the japanese, regardless of their access to asia or not, nobody there would buy junk. consumers in asia are even more picky than n.americans when it comes to cars, if B3 can't even compete at home..what makes you think they would have any chance overseas?

B3 built cars more suited for N.AMerican and still lose big time.

Where were you 30 years ago when Jap crap was being dumped here? Have you ever been in a 74 Honda Civic or a 76 Toyota Corolla or a 77 Datsun Orange piece of crap I don't even know or care what the name of it was? Ya thats what I thought. Well I have. They were crap but they were cheap. They were good on gas because of their pathetically weak powertrains. Don't talk to me about fallicies kid.

The B3 NEVER had a chance to compete in Asia, because they weren't ALLOWED until China allowed them too. And guess what? Who is the biggest foreign automaker in China? Not Toyota boy....GM.

[Slippery_Pete]

Hyundai, sub-par? :lol:
The American automakers really should be taking long looks at how Toyota, Honda and Hyundai have done so well, instead of complaining.
Maybe they could learn something if they can get past their egos.

Some people in North America got fed up with the junk the big three were offering in the Eighties (especially) and turned to Toyota and Honda and other Japanese car makers.
Then, they discovered that these were well made cars and they stuck with them; more people learned and the Japanese car sales went way up and they built plants in North America.
Same thing is now happening with Hyundai and the American cars are being left behind.
Until the (used to be) big three learn and change their ways with better quality and better designs, the Asian car makers will continue to take away more and more sales.
The (used to be) big three have only themselves to blame; North America was their market and they let it slip away.


Yes Gordholio we all know you bought and love your Hyundai. Perhaps you think you were getting "Japanese" quality when you purchased it. Its a Hyundai, they've improved, but still. Just because it looks Jap doesn't mean it is. Maybe yours is fine, but I could find a thousand people who haven't had problems with their GMs or Fords. But they're anecdotes, just like you.

Speaking of anecdotes I have one of my own. Myself and 2 friends reccently purchased new vehicles. 1 is a $40,000 Acura TSX, another a $30,000 Mazda 6 wagon, and a $20,000 Dodge Caravan. Guess which one hasn't been in the shop for repairs yet?

[SkiD]

^seconded, but it is true that fair trade doesnt really exist, we only have "fairer" trade. but that's no excuse to blame everything on that issue for the big 3... they first need to straighten up their own products than anything else. Look at Chrystler for example, they're on the right track with innovative products, they were the only one operating without loss in recent years

Stay tuned, Chrysler is on track to lose a couple of billion this year (Ford will probably lose about 9 billion and GM might actually come close to breaking even).

Chrysler (DCX) is in trouble because even though they have some products people want (Caliber for instance), they are still building a lot of vehicles that people don't want and have an inventory problem right now .

Ford is in trouble because other than the F150 and Mustang, they don't have any vehicles that are in high demand and don't really have anything new in the pipeline to excite people and increase sales, so their sales are going to keep declining.

GM, even though they have lost a bunch of money the last few years, are probably in the best shape of the big 2.5. There are a lot of new vehicles in the pipeline, for instance, in 2 years, the oldest Saturn model will be the Sky, as every other model from the 2006 lineup will have been replaced. The other divisions will have similar turnover (GM's lineup should actually be "younger" than Toyota's by 2010).

[Slippery_Pete]

and why do you think a toyota/honda is worth more regardless? because of a track record of consistently being much more reliable and higher quality than B3 offerings, this is not opinion. it is fact as shown in countless studies.

hence, the toyotas/hondas have used their past record to build a positive perception of their products while the B3 did vice versa. decades of POS cars have caused public to lose faith in them. and this is justifibly deserved as well.

Exactly my point. Toyota could sell a POS tommorow and people would still buy it up at a premium. If that's not a perfect example of brainwashing, I don't know what is. Sorry dude, I've been burned by the perception is reality garbage with brand names before...*cough* Japanese quality Sony *cough*, never again will I buy something based on brand name and origin alone. Open mind and resarch, thats it.

[BBQPorkBun]

Exactly my point. Toyota could sell a POS tommorow and people would still buy it up at a premium. If that's not a perfect example of brainwashing, I don't know what is. Sorry dude, I've been burned by the perception is reality garbage with brand names before...*cough* Japanese quality Sony *cough*, never again will I buy something based on brand name and origin alone. Open mind and resarch, thats it.

Is it brainwashing or just going with historical trends? I mean I can say something like IBM laptops (or some other reliable product) are pretty sturdy. Yes there will be problems, some will need to be returned but in the big picture they are statistically pretty durable.

You can also go on business approach. B3's approach is low cost because that is how they compete. if a part cost $8 but the $9 part will last twice as long, they will still choose the $8 part because its lower cost. Ford has also been changing their business models to mimic the japanese, so that tells you something.

Ok, research, when consumer reports top 10 in reliability and 9 of 10 is Japanese, Im comfortable saying that, most likely, japanese cars are more reliable. If you can conclude it doesn't mean that, well then you have your own logic or evidence but don't discredit others who have experience with the products.

Will the next Corolla be just as reliable? maybe not. Likely? probably. As to your example with ur friends....what about it? it means nothing.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/carreviews/03/01/cr_reliability/index.html

[BBQPorkBun]

Is it an even playing field? no. Does it matter? Not if your products are inferior. Why is GM number 1 in China? Reasons are political more than anything. After China copies their techology and processes and starts exporting cars of their own, GM won't be needed.

[ji2o0k]

Exactly my point. Toyota could sell a POS tommorow and people would still buy it up at a premium. If that's not a perfect example of brainwashing, I don't know what is. Sorry dude, I've been burned by the perception is reality garbage with brand names before...*cough* Japanese quality Sony *cough*, never again will I buy something based on brand name and origin alone. Open mind and resarch, thats it.
You do have a point in that Toyota could sell a POS tomorrow and people would still pay a premium for it. That is because Toyota has built up its brand to signify quality. But consumers would only buy that POS for so long, until they realize it is a POS and then stop buying. As you mentioned, in the 70s Toyotas/Hondas were known to be cheap but not exactly reliable. Toyota/Honda has turned that perception around in the last 30-40 years. But how did they do that ? I don't think it is brainwashing, they must have done something right to bulid that perception.

Are all Toyotas more reliable than say a Ford or GM car ? No, you can't say that. My family has a 1994 Ford Taurus running strong and is an excellent car. But on average, are Toyotas more reliable than Fords/GMs ? Consumers think so. Again, Toyota/Honda has been able to build that brand perception.
I think they did it through a combination of innovation and quality and was able to communicate that to the masses.

The Big 3 can still turn it around. I would buy a Ford if they can demonstrate innovation and quality to me. But building brand perception takes time. It is easier to destroy than create as the old saying goes. So the Big 3 will need time to turn this around. They should really try and get it right at home in North America before they think overseas. Capture the North American market and then worry about Asia.

Another good example as Pete mentioned is Sony. They were the markets leaders in innovation and quality. But look how badly they have slipped. They weren't producing products that consumers wanted, their quality control slipped etc. They will need time to turn that around as well.

[Ben31]

I'd buy a Ford anyday over a Mexican Assembled VW

Don't buy the Ford Fusion then....its built in Mexico... :lol:

[gordholio]

Yes Gordholio we all know you bought and love your Hyundai. Perhaps you think you were getting "Japanese" quality when you purchased it. Its a Hyundai, they've improved, but still. Just because it looks Jap doesn't mean it is. Maybe yours is fine, but I could find a thousand people who haven't had problems with their GMs or Fords. But they're anecdotes, just like you.

Speaking of anecdotes I have one of my own. Myself and 2 friends reccently purchased new vehicles. 1 is a $40,000 Acura TSX, another a $30,000 Mazda 6 wagon, and a $20,000 Dodge Caravan. Guess which one hasn't been in the shop for repairs yet?

If American cars are so good, why are sales of Asian cars especially taking away more and more of the North American market?
It's not all perception.
It's not like the Asian cars are cheaper priced.
Just wondering. :)

[ericyjh85]

Where were you 30 years ago when Jap crap was being dumped here? Have you ever been in a 74 Honda Civic or a 76 Toyota Corolla or a 77 Datsun Orange piece of crap I don't even know or care what the name of it was? Ya thats what I thought. Well I have. They were crap but they were cheap. They were good on gas because of their pathetically weak powertrains. Don't talk to me about fallicies kid.

The B3 NEVER had a chance to compete in Asia, because they weren't ALLOWED until China allowed them too. And guess what? Who is the biggest foreign automaker in China? Not Toyota boy....GM.

Lol, 30 years ago? I can sense a little generation gap there. This is 2006 and technologies nowdays are quite different than back then, say the 70s?

Go ahead and buy you GM, Ford or Chrysler. Also say what you want about the Japanese quality and how brain-washed other people are, because no matter what you do, in a few years, Toyota will overtake GM and be the number 1 automaker in the world. Only time will tell.

[goffeebeans]

Lol, 30 years ago? I can sense a little generation gap there. This is 2006 and technologies nowdays are quite different than back then, say the 70s?

Go ahead and buy you GM, Ford or Chrysler. Also say what you want about the Japanese quality and how brain-washed other people are, because no matter what you do, in a few years, Toyota will overtake GM and be the number 1 automaker in the world. Only time will tell.

Everything pete said is summed up in
Sorry dude, I've been burned by the perception is reality garbage with brand names before...*cough* Japanese quality Sony *cough*, never again will I buy something based on brand name and origin alone. Open mind and resarch, thats it.

Basically, YOU should do your own research on any vehicle you plan on purchasing and not relying on the assumptions linked with brand names.

Every company has its gems and pos. research is key. ie. Just because Honda says the civic has the best ________, doesnt mean you're going to purchase it without researching/test driving it.

[crimsona]

For example, the huge tranny problems people are having with the 07 Camry...

On its own merit, the Mazda 3 (effectively owned by Ford) is a very good car. The Focus just isn't up to par.

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

Basically, YOU should do your own research on any vehicle you plan on purchasing and not relying on the assumptions linked with brand names.

You(the guy who said that) think you're the only person who does that?

I'm pretty sure most people don't buy cars without test driving and research. Most of them DO test drive and DO surf the net to look for info and do comparisons.

And more and more of them buy non-B2.5 cars. You can sit here and call people idiots because they can't see what a great car the Ford Focus is, it ain't going to save Ford.

[MrDisco]

Haha! Ford is losing money because they're not allowed to sell NA made cars to Japan?


No he is saying that the Asian automakers enjoy a great advantage by being able to sell their vehicles without any outside competition in their domestic markets. This isn't about your personal bias over the quality of particular makes, but about fair trade and allowing our industries the same access to foreign markets.

While I'm sure many people here would dance for joy if the big 3 collapsed, the province of Ontario enjoys great rewards with the amount of employment, taxes, and subsidiary businesses that they provide. Wouldn't you want to see our own products sold overseas to help bring in more revenue? :confused:

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

While I'm sure many people here would dance for joy if the big 3 collapsed, the province of Ontario enjoys great rewards with the amount of employment, taxes, and subsidiary businesses that they provide. Wouldn't you want to see our own products sold overseas to help bring in more revenue?

Why does it have to be a Ford? Ford isn't Canadian. We make plenty of Honda/Acura/Toyotas here in Canada that sell great overseas. What are you worried about?

This isn't even ABOUT Ford, or GM or any car company. They haven't said anything. The guy whining is the CAW guy, who blames import car makers for the closure of the Ford plant. If he was such an awesome auto worker why doesn't he just go apply at the Honda or Toyota plant down the road? None of them are Canadian, what difference does it make to him? Of course Ford doesn't say anything, they don't need to because everyone knows why they closed the plant: No one wants to buy crappy Ford products.

[goffeebeans]

You(the guy who said that) think you're the only person who does that?

I'm pretty sure most people don't buy cars without test driving and research. Most of them DO test drive and DO surf the net to look for info and do comparisons.

And more and more of them buy non-B2.5 cars. You can sit here and call people idiots because they can't see what a great car the Ford Focus is, it ain't going to save Ford.

lol. apparently you misread my post.
my post wasnt bashing any companies or calling anyone idiots. The only thing I mentioned is that people should do research and make informed choices. Not necessarily, only consider or not consider cars just because they're x brand. Honda was only used as an example.

[sixer]

LOL, I didn't know the Fusion was assembled in Mexico. Thanks for the Info.

I did know the 2007 Camry's are having transmission issues. Furthermore, interested review on this article. Despite Camry being assembled in Japan, the Mexican quality was better! LOL Are the Tables Turning???


Fusion marches past Camry
Ford's power, fit and finish trump Toyota's warhorse

This Week In Drive
When we decided to stage the definitive showdown between two of the top family sedans in North America, our choices quickly narrowed to the newest and most popular designs on the market: The 2006 Ford Fusion and the 2007 Toyota Camry.

The historic battle in this segment between Ford and Toyota, which dates back nearly two decades, has been so fierce that when the Taurus edged the Camry for the U.S. sales crown one year, Ford's public-relations department hired a marching band to trumpet that fact up and down Jefferson Avenue.

Our premise for this historic rematch was simple: If you're a family of modest means, with about $25,000 to spend on some new everyday wheels, which car offers the best value?

With the all-new Fusion supplanting the Taurus for model year 2006 and the long-lived Camry (the reigning sales champ) getting a major redesign for 2007, one of the two rivals is about ready to strike up the band once again.

The '06 Fusion starts at $17,795, including shipping. We tested a top-of-the-line Fusion SEL with lots of equipment and a sticker price of $25,650. The '07 Camry is priced from $18,850. We drove a midrange Camry LE with a modest number of extras and a bottom line of $24,266.

Exterior

Bold. In your face. And very, very American. The Fusion boasts a distinctive exterior that Ford designers like to refer to as "go-Daddy" -- shorthand for hip and edgy. With its big chrome grille, flanked by wrapover headlamps, and other Ford family styling cues, Fusion has a brash and sporty personality that has struck a responsive chord with buyers since its debut last fall.

The redesigned Camry adopts precisely the opposite tack. In a dramatic stylistic departure from its bland predecessor, the '07 model takes a huge step upmarket. Now, the Camry looks an awful lot like a little Lexus, not a garden-variety family schlepper, with a new elegance and sophistication that the Fusion lacks.

Depending on your personal taste, this one's a toss-up.

Winner: Tie

Interior

Oddly enough, where the Toyota had the more luxurious exterior, Ford came up with a ritzier cabin.

The Camry LE was outfitted in a very subtle two-tone interior scheme, with cloth seats and not a lot of amenities. Considering that the base Camry starts at under $19,000, we were surprised that the midlevel LE model didn't seem that much fancier, especially considering the $24,000-plus sticker on our test vehicle.

Moreover, we were startled, and disappointed, by the less-than-sterling assembly quality on our test Camry, which was actually built in Japan, and not in Toyota's huge assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky. Regardless of location, there is no excuse for the poor trim fits we encountered inside our test vehicle -- especially not in a segment that's as competitive as this, and certainly not with the golden reputation for quality that Toyota has enjoyed for so many years.

The Fusion, on the other hand, proved to be a pleasant surprise, with an upscale cabin upholstered in rich perforated leather, with handsome piano-black trim. The pieces fit together neatly (the Fusion is assembled in Mexico), and there were enough standard and optional features to give you the impression of driving a near-luxury vehicle.

Winner: Fusion

Ride & handling

Handling tends to be a fairly subjective issue, and it often takes a back seat to ride quality among family buyers. Both our test sedans displayed a very comfortable ride that should be quite acceptable to most shoppers in this segment.

When it comes to agility and maneuverability, however, the Fusion has a clear edge over the Camry. While most midsize family sedans feel neutral, if not a little soggy, in terms of handling, the Fusion is crisp and lively, sharing a delightful nimbleness with its cousin, the Mazda6 (both cars employ a common underbody). It's certainly no BMW, but enthusiasts will appreciate the more sporting flavor of the Ford over Toyota's middle-of-the-road approach.

Winner: Fusion

Powertrain

Between our two test vehicles, the Fusion was the clear winner in this department, by virtue of the fact that it offered two more cylinders, one more transmission gear and 63 more horsepower, for not much more money.

While a DOHC 2.3-liter four-cylinder engine is standard in the base model, our range-topping Fusion SEL was equipped with a responsive twin-cam 3.0-liter V-6 that delivers an ample 221 horsepower and comes mated to a six-speed automatic transmission.

In comparison, our Camry LE was fitted with a very sturdy DOHC 2.4-liter I-4 and smooth-shifting five-speed automatic. The Toyota four-cylinder engine makes 158 horsepower -- perfectly adequate for everyday driving, but nowhere near as quick and powerful as the Ford V-6.

Moreover, the Camry's fuel economy isn't much better than the Fusion's. The EPA ratings on our test Camry LE were 24 mpg in city driving and 33 on the highway; the Fusion SEL was rated at 21 and 29 -- very respectable figures for a V-6 with automatic.

Winner: Fusion

Safety

You have to pay extra for most of the safety equipment on the Fusion, even the high-line SEL. Side air bags and side curtains are part of a $595 package; antilock brakes cost $595 and traction control adds $95.

Virtually all that gear comes standard on the Camry LE, including ABS, side air bags and curtains, plus a driver's knee air bag, which is something you'd expect to see on the more expensive Lexus models. Traction control comes bundled with stability control for an extra $650.

Winner: Camry

Summary

Considering the $1,384 price difference between our two test vehicles, the Fusion SLE seemed to offer so much more than the Camry LE, in terms of engine size and performance, as well as creature comforts and -- most surprising of all -- assembly quality.

Overall Winner: Ford Fusion

[BBQPorkBun]

No he is saying that the Asian automakers enjoy a great advantage by being able to sell their vehicles without any outside competition in their domestic markets. This isn't about your personal bias over the quality of particular makes, but about fair trade and allowing our industries the same access to foreign markets.

While I'm sure many people here would dance for joy if the big 3 collapsed, the province of Ontario enjoys great rewards with the amount of employment, taxes, and subsidiary businesses that they provide. Wouldn't you want to see our own products sold overseas to help bring in more revenue? :confused:

I don't want to see them collapse, Id prefer they make better vehicles to compete, maybe something revolutionary even. Competition is good. But they are going through a slow death with their business practicies.

[BBQPorkBun]

LOL, I didn't know the Fusion was assembled in Mexico. Thanks for the Info.

Considering the $1,384 price difference between our two test vehicles, the Fusion SLE seemed to offer so much more than the Camry LE, in terms of engine size and performance, as well as creature comforts and -- most surprising of all -- assembly quality.

Overall Winner: Ford Fusion

No, tables are not turning.
Article is almost all subjective.

[gordholio]

No he is saying that the Asian automakers enjoy a great advantage by being able to sell their vehicles without any outside competition in their domestic markets. This isn't about your personal bias over the quality of particular makes, but about fair trade and allowing our industries the same access to foreign markets.

While I'm sure many people here would dance for joy if the big 3 collapsed, the province of Ontario enjoys great rewards with the amount of employment, taxes, and subsidiary businesses that they provide. Wouldn't you want to see our own products sold overseas to help bring in more revenue? :confused:

They're not the Big Three anymore.
Nobody would be dancing in the streets if any of the American carmakers went belly up. People would be out of jobs; no one wants that.

[gilboman]

Exactly my point. Toyota could sell a POS tommorow and people would still buy it up at a premium. If that's not a perfect example of brainwashing, I don't know what is. Sorry dude, I've been burned by the perception is reality garbage with brand names before...*cough* Japanese quality Sony *cough*, never again will I buy something based on brand name and origin alone. Open mind and resarch, thats it.

no that is not brainwashing..that is called brand recongnition.

brainwashing would be buying a toyota that turns out to be a POS and people who drive it still say its the best thing since sliced bread.

[gilboman]

LOL, I didn't know the Fusion was assembled in Mexico. Thanks for the Info.

I did know the 2007 Camry's are having transmission issues. Furthermore, interested review on this article. Despite Camry being assembled in Japan, the Mexican quality was better! LOL Are the Tables Turning???


Fusion marches past Camry
Ford's power, fit and finish trump Toyota's warhorse

This Week In Drive
When we decided to stage the definitive showdown between two of the top family sedans in North America, our choices quickly narrowed to the newest and most popular designs on the market: The 2006 Ford Fusion and the 2007 Toyota Camry.

The historic battle in this segment between Ford and Toyota, which dates back nearly two decades, has been so fierce that when the Taurus edged the Camry for the U.S. sales crown one year, Ford's public-relations department hired a marching band to trumpet that fact up and down Jefferson Avenue.

Our premise for this historic rematch was simple: If you're a family of modest means, with about $25,000 to spend on some new everyday wheels, which car offers the best value?

With the all-new Fusion supplanting the Taurus for model year 2006 and the long-lived Camry (the reigning sales champ) getting a major redesign for 2007, one of the two rivals is about ready to strike up the band once again.

The '06 Fusion starts at $17,795, including shipping. We tested a top-of-the-line Fusion SEL with lots of equipment and a sticker price of $25,650. The '07 Camry is priced from $18,850. We drove a midrange Camry LE with a modest number of extras and a bottom line of $24,266.

Exterior

Bold. In your face. And very, very American. The Fusion boasts a distinctive exterior that Ford designers like to refer to as "go-Daddy" -- shorthand for hip and edgy. With its big chrome grille, flanked by wrapover headlamps, and other Ford family styling cues, Fusion has a brash and sporty personality that has struck a responsive chord with buyers since its debut last fall.

The redesigned Camry adopts precisely the opposite tack. In a dramatic stylistic departure from its bland predecessor, the '07 model takes a huge step upmarket. Now, the Camry looks an awful lot like a little Lexus, not a garden-variety family schlepper, with a new elegance and sophistication that the Fusion lacks.

Depending on your personal taste, this one's a toss-up.

Winner: Tie

Interior

Oddly enough, where the Toyota had the more luxurious exterior, Ford came up with a ritzier cabin.

The Camry LE was outfitted in a very subtle two-tone interior scheme, with cloth seats and not a lot of amenities. Considering that the base Camry starts at under $19,000, we were surprised that the midlevel LE model didn't seem that much fancier, especially considering the $24,000-plus sticker on our test vehicle.

Moreover, we were startled, and disappointed, by the less-than-sterling assembly quality on our test Camry, which was actually built in Japan, and not in Toyota's huge assembly plant in Georgetown, Ky. Regardless of location, there is no excuse for the poor trim fits we encountered inside our test vehicle -- especially not in a segment that's as competitive as this, and certainly not with the golden reputation for quality that Toyota has enjoyed for so many years.

The Fusion, on the other hand, proved to be a pleasant surprise, with an upscale cabin upholstered in rich perforated leather, with handsome piano-black trim. The pieces fit together neatly (the Fusion is assembled in Mexico), and there were enough standard and optional features to give you the impression of driving a near-luxury vehicle.

Winner: Fusion

Ride & handling

Handling tends to be a fairly subjective issue, and it often takes a back seat to ride quality among family buyers. Both our test sedans displayed a very comfortable ride that should be quite acceptable to most shoppers in this segment.

When it comes to agility and maneuverability, however, the Fusion has a clear edge over the Camry. While most midsize family sedans feel neutral, if not a little soggy, in terms of handling, the Fusion is crisp and lively, sharing a delightful nimbleness with its cousin, the Mazda6 (both cars employ a common underbody). It's certainly no BMW, but enthusiasts will appreciate the more sporting flavor of the Ford over Toyota's middle-of-the-road approach.

Winner: Fusion

Powertrain

Between our two test vehicles, the Fusion was the clear winner in this department, by virtue of the fact that it offered two more cylinders, one more transmission gear and 63 more horsepower, for not much more money.

While a DOHC 2.3-liter four-cylinder engine is standard in the base model, our range-topping Fusion SEL was equipped with a responsive twin-cam 3.0-liter V-6 that delivers an ample 221 horsepower and comes mated to a six-speed automatic transmission.

In comparison, our Camry LE was fitted with a very sturdy DOHC 2.4-liter I-4 and smooth-shifting five-speed automatic. The Toyota four-cylinder engine makes 158 horsepower -- perfectly adequate for everyday driving, but nowhere near as quick and powerful as the Ford V-6.

Moreover, the Camry's fuel economy isn't much better than the Fusion's. The EPA ratings on our test Camry LE were 24 mpg in city driving and 33 on the highway; the Fusion SEL was rated at 21 and 29 -- very respectable figures for a V-6 with automatic.

Winner: Fusion

Safety

You have to pay extra for most of the safety equipment on the Fusion, even the high-line SEL. Side air bags and side curtains are part of a $595 package; antilock brakes cost $595 and traction control adds $95.

Virtually all that gear comes standard on the Camry LE, including ABS, side air bags and curtains, plus a driver's knee air bag, which is something you'd expect to see on the more expensive Lexus models. Traction control comes bundled with stability control for an extra $650.

Winner: Camry

Summary

Considering the $1,384 price difference between our two test vehicles, the Fusion SLE seemed to offer so much more than the Camry LE, in terms of engine size and performance, as well as creature comforts and -- most surprising of all -- assembly quality.

Overall Winner: Ford Fusion

did you get that garbage from detroit news? :lol: :lol: :lol:

nope tables arent turning, just that you managed to find some garbage article meant as comedy ;)

[Narci]

It's funny to see Imports costing alot more then domestics and yet still people will buy the import for more $$$.

This should send alarm bells to the big 3 that price is not the main factor for consumers purchasing a vehicle. They need to get off thier dependancies on 0% financing or employee pricing and get back to designing and building good reliable cars to sway the public perception.

[phd1969]

Yup this is a big joke and more union crap I can have a good laught at.

In reality, a lot of Hondas and Toyotas are built here in Canada and the States, my civic was built in Ohio. Buzz Hargrove can piss and moan but he's just sad because none of the workers for 'foreign' manufactuers want nothing to do with the CAW.

[SkiD]

In reality, a lot of Hondas and Toyotas are built here in Canada and the States, my civic was built in Ohio. Buzz Hargrove can piss and moan but he's just sad because none of the workers for 'foreign' manufactuers want nothing to do with the CAW.

The reason UAW and CAW are complaining is because as the foreign companies start building more vehicles in North America, it's not just the workers building the cars losing their jobs, there are a lot of people that build the components that will lose their jobs also, which means less people in the unions and less power.

On average the Japanese use about 50% North American content for parts for their vehicles (they "assemble" vehicles) and the Domestics about 75% (they "build" vehicles), this works out to about 300,000 more parts supplier jobs supported by the Domestics, so of course the unions will piss and moan (wouldn't you). If Ford or GM ever went bankrupt, the US would go into a recession pretty fast (with Ontario and Canada right behind).

I agree that if North America is an open market, the other markets should be to, if the domestics build a vehicle that someone in Japan actually wants, they should be able to buy it without worrying about the government clamping down with trade restrictions.

[Narci]

Just a thought but since American Autos use alot of domestic suppliers, wouldn't it make American cars more expensive to buy in Japan then a Japanses doemstic car?

[v33k]

FYI

For all the Japanese car maker

USDM = Waterdown JDM

and their waterdown version of cars already beat the crap out of the big 3.

and big 3 wants to go in their market and compete with JDM? good luck.


For Example, JDM Corolla comes with HID standard.
in 90s, JDM Honda Civic has Navi option available.

[BBQPorkBun]

I agree that if North America is an open market, the other markets should be to, if the domestics build a vehicle that someone in Japan actually wants, they should be able to buy it without worrying about the government clamping down with trade restrictions.

Until that time, selling a few cars in Japan are not going to solve their business problems. Not fair, but not the problem.

[belfour]

Ford and GM merger? :lol: Wouldn't that cause more jobs and plants to be cut?

[Focus]

Ok, research, when consumer reports top 10 in reliability and 9 of 10 is Japanese, Im comfortable saying that, most likely, japanese cars are more reliable. If you can conclude it doesn't mean that, well then you have your own logic or evidence but don't discredit others who have experience with the products.

Will the next Corolla be just as reliable? maybe not. Likely? probably. As to your example with ur friends....what about it? it means nothing.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/carreviews/03/01/cr_reliability/index.html

JD Power (http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133)

Out of top 13, only 5 are Japanese.

[BBQPorkBun]

JD Power (http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133)

Out of top 13, only 5 are Japanese.

So lets go on the commonalities of both lists in the top 10

Lexus
Toyota
Acura
Honda
Mercury

mmmm....Mercury

[Narci]

When was the last time someone you knew bought a car based on a survey?

Most people I know that buys cars look at certain brands because of word of mouth or past personal experience. If the Japanese brands have a better 'word of mouth', you can bet people are more likely lean towards a japanese product and vice versa regardless of what a survey tells me.

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

Haha, good thing Ford is basically killing off the Mercury brand. That's just how they operate.

North American Consumers: Cmon Ford, bring us the Euro-spec Focus! We would totally buy that! It wouldn't even cost you any money because you already make the stupid car!

Ford: LOL nope, if you buy it we might start making money! We'd lose our Non-Profit Organization status! :lol:

NA Consumer: :confused:

[gilboman]

JD Power (http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006133)

Out of top 13, only 5 are Japanese.

and they are

Lexus,
Toyota
Honda
Acura


all ahead of ford :lol:

most importantly

Lexus, Toyota and Honda models dominate the segment rankings. Lexus models lead in four segments: GS 300/GS 430 (midsize premium car), LS 430 (large premium car), SC 430 (premium sporty car) and GX 470 (midsize premium MAV). Four Toyota models also lead in their respective segments: Echo (sub-compact car), RAV4 (compact MAV), Highlander (midsize MAV) and Tundra (large pickup). Honda models rank highest in three segments: Civic (compact car), S2000 (compact premium sporty car) and Odyssey (van).

[akito925]

If American cars are so good, why are sales of Asian cars especially taking away more and more of the North American market?
It's not all perception.
It's not like the Asian cars are cheaper priced.
Just wondering. :)

Asian made cars are more expensice then the big 3.. why are people paying more for imported higher priced cars?? when the big 3 have 0% financing, employeee discounts for everyone etc.. but yet there are people buying asian cars..

Like my friend he bought a $50,000 honda odyssy van.. while you can buy a dodge caravan for half the price you payed for a honda van.. why ?? you ask?? becuase of the reliability..

[phd1969]

That's how it is, most of the best of class cars are foreign. I need to rent cars every once and awhile and I'm always disgusted by the quality and fit of the american cars. I once rented a new Grand Prix and after several minutes of driving the consoles gets so hot that you'll burn yourself if you try to change the radio. Gaps every and just cheap materials making it horrible looking.

[Sonbuster]

why would japan, korea etc, want to buy something that even we don't want to buy?

[BBQPorkBun]

mmmm....Mercury

[Focus]

Please, if you're going to quote something quote the everything, don't just pick those you like to see.

and they are

Lexus,
Toyota
Honda
Acura

all ahead of ford :lol:


It should read like
Lexus -> Mercury -> Buick -> Cadillac - > Toyota -> Acura -> Honda -> Jaguar -> BMW -> infiniti -> Lincln -> Ford -> Olds

If you LOL at toyota/Honda ahead of Ford can I LOL at Buick ahead of toyota/Honda?

The point is that GM/Ford is not as bad as people claim.


most importantly

Lexus, Toyota and Honda models dominate the segment rankings. Lexus models lead in four segments: GS 300/GS 430 (midsize premium car), LS 430 (large premium car), SC 430 (premium sporty car) and GX 470 (midsize premium MAV). Four Toyota models also lead in their respective segments: Echo (sub-compact car), RAV4 (compact MAV), Highlander (midsize MAV) and Tundra (large pickup). Honda models rank highest in three segments: Civic (compact car), S2000 (compact premium sporty car) and Odyssey (van).

beside all you mention there is more
midsize car: BUICK CENTURY, BUICK REGAL, MERCURY SABLE
PS where is camry? accord?

large car: Mercury grand marquis, ford crown victoria, buick park avenue

Large pickup: Toyota Tundra -> Ford F150 -> F250
midsize pickup: Ford Ranger -> Subaru -> Toyota Tacoma
Van: Honda odyssey -> Olds -> Chev -> Pontic
large MAV: GMC -> Chev -> Toyota
large premium MAC: Cadillac -> Lexus -> Cad

my hand is getting sore but it is not that dominate if you ask me.

[MrDisco]

the latest goofiest rumour: a Ford-GM merger

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/IndustryInfo/story?id=2459206&page=1

[BBQPorkBun]

the latest goofiest rumour: a Ford-GM merger

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/IndustryInfo/story?id=2459206&page=1

What comes to mind first is that alot of people will lose their jobs. But then I do want to see what possible synergies can come out of this.

[Slippery_Pete]

Lol, 30 years ago? I can sense a little generation gap there. This is 2006 and technologies nowdays are quite different than back then, say the 70s?

Go ahead and buy you GM, Ford or Chrysler. Also say what you want about the Japanese quality and how brain-washed other people are, because no matter what you do, in a few years, Toyota will overtake GM and be the number 1 automaker in the world. Only time will tell.

My point was not that Japanese cars are the same as 30 years ago :confused: . It is that 30 years ago Japanese gained a foothold in North America with some really *****y cars. NA automakers were not afforded that same opportunity due to unfair trading practices. I am not arguing about quality here, or who will be the number one auto maker. I have no affiliation with for any particular car maker. Why should I care if Toyota, GM or Skoda is the largest automaker?

[MrDisco]

Erinwood Ford in Mississauga is now offering a $100 Best Buy gift card to any shopper who test drives a Fusion but then buys an Accord, Camry, or Altima within 3 days of the test drive (proof of purchase required).
President of the dealership believes the Fusion offers a more competitive package with great financing and is willing to put his money on the line in this promo.

I say good luck to them. I can't see anyone who can afford an Accord or Camry would pick a Fusion over those models.

[BBQPorkBun]

Erinwood Ford in Mississauga is now offering a $100 Best Buy gift card to any shopper who test drives a Fusion but then buys an Accord, Camry, or Altima within 3 days of the test drive (proof of purchase required).
President of the dealership believes the Fusion offers a more competitive package with great financing and is willing to put his money on the line in this promo.

I say good luck to them. I can't see anyone who can afford an Accord or Camry would pick a Fusion over those models.

I can picture people take advantage of this, all those loyal jap brand buyers.
But I am also guessing its not widely advertised.
Would be funny if it increased sales for the opposition: "hm..fusion was ok, but I think i'll still go with camry, better buy it within 3 days" haha.

[chriswalsh]

I say good luck to them. I can't see anyone who can afford an Accord or Camry would pick a Fusion over those models.

I think its a great idea... Many of the people otherwise probably wouldnt even LOOK at the fusion. No doubt they will be giving away plenty of gift certificates, but I'm sure they will generate some sales from it.

Personally, I think the new Accords are hideous, and although the 07 Camrys look pretty nice, I wouldnt buy one yet because of the tranny problems on the V6s. And an Altima is... well... a Nissan (not impressed with my parents maxima or pathfinder).

So the Fusion isnt such a long shot in my eyes.

[plymouthhater]

Great thread - one thing IMHO you all missed was manufacturer attitude.
I have 3 vehicles - 2 Toyotas and a Mazda.

I have owned Ford and Chrysler in the last 10 years. In the case of both Ford and Chrysler, the manufacturer and dealer attitudes stank.

I had nothing but grief with my Chrysler minivan (3 trannys, 3 air conditioner compressors, ABS brake module, wiper motor etc etc etc). Both the Chrysler dealership and head office couldn't give a damn when I brought problems to them. In fact Chrysler head office couldn't understand why I was unhappy that my vehicle was so unreliable, that every time I drove it, invariably something else would fail. ($6000 in claims on the extended warranty) They told me "Sir we don't understand why you are upset, all of your problems are being handled under the terms of your warranty".

Ford was better, but the local dealership was rude and arrogant.

Toyota on the other hand, bend over backwards to ensure we are happy customers. We receive all kinds of mail from Toyota head office. Discount coupons on service, free items with service (first aid kits, snow brushes etc).
The vehicle is washed every time it goes in for service.

So far other than a couple of recalls, very little has gone wrong with my Sienna in 3.5 yrs of ownership.

Would I ever buy a Chrysler again? Nope. Ford again? Nope.

Would I ever buy a Toyota again. Yup!

[KawaiiTentacleBeast]

You know what's funny? It's sort of like the Euro-spec Focus debacle. The Fusion is USDM/CDM only. The rest of the world, i.e. Europe and JAPAN (Mondeo has always been popular in Japan) gets the Mk3 Mondeo.

MK3 Mondeo Wagon. The TDI "Duratorq" version uses a variable geometry turbine, and uses "overboost" to increase torque by 10% for short periods. Also comes with 2.5L turbo I5. All engines are Volvo/Mazda designed?

http://www.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2006/09/ford_mondeo_concept_4.jpg
http://www.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2006/09/ford_mondeo_concept_2.jpg
http://www.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2006/09/ford_mondeo_concept_13.jpg
http://www.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2006/09/ford_mondeo_concept_9.jpg
http://www.jalopnik.com/assets/resources/2006/09/ford_mondeo_concept_5.jpg

Dig those dual exhausts. :)

Sedan
http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2006/09/2007-Ford-Mondeo-Sedan-02.jpg http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2006/09/2007-Ford-Mondeo-Sedan-01.jpg http://www.jalopnik.com/cars/assets/resources/2006/09/2007-Ford-Mondeo-Sedan-05.jpg

Think they will ever bring those to N America? Prolly not.