Bad Toyota Service experience - Brake job gone bad

[djpositivek]

I'll try to keep it as short as possible...

Less than 2 years ago, had brake job done on my 1998 Tercel at Toyota Dealer. They replaced pads & rotors up front and had to free up a sticky left front caliper. Cost around $600 including some other maintenance done

In May, I went in for a scheduled maintenance service (I go there for everything) and that included a brake inspection which supposedly included caliper lubrication. Everything got a good report back, meaning they found nothing wrong.

3 months and approximately 3,000 kms later I go in for a MVI and also because my brakes are sticking. I thought maybe it was a sticky emergency brake cable.

They tell me that the left front caliper is ceased up and that it wore down the brake pad to the metal and scraped the rotor. It will cost ~$600 to fix. (remanufactured caliper, new pads, shim kit, rotors + labour)

Me being stupid, I didn't remember that I had the brakes done so recently (under 2 years) and gave them the go ahead to fix it.

So anyway after I remembered that I had the brakes done not that long ago is when I dug through my Invoices and saw everything there. I called to complain to the Service dept. but they said there wasn't much they could do. I asked why they couldn't machine the rotors and they said there was not enough thickness left ?!? These rotors were under 2 years old and had never been machined. And even if they were scratched up from the ceased caliper, I blame that on them. The reason I take it in for scheduled service is so they can catch things like that. Makes no sense that they gave the brakes a good pass over and lube only 3,000 kms ago and all of a sudden my caliper ceases causing major damage and this is my fault ?!? The Assistant manager I spoke with said that a caliper can cease overnight. And I asked about seeing my old rotors so they could show me that they were un-machinable but how unlucky... The guys had come to pick up the scrap metal already. I went in on Friday and this was a long weekend. he apparently was there yesterday morning :twisted:

Anyway she said they would credit my CC for the price of the brake pads ($60) because they were under lifetime warranty. Their computer system couldn't pick this up ?!? I think she expected me to jump for joy and she would never hear from me again.

Sorry for the long read. Anybody have an e-mail address for someone at Toyota Canada that I can send my complaint on to. I only see a web form to submit. I plan on mailing them but would also like an e-mail. Also please let me know if there are websites out there that I can share my experience with. I have been a Honda/Toyota guy all my life but this experience has really been bad. We just bought a 2005 Pontiac Vibe a year ago which is essentially a Toyota Matrix.

By the way, the Dealership is O'Regans Toyota in Halifax. It's unfortunate but I won't be going back there and I will be spreading the news as well.

[JAGpilot]

Mistake 1: Going to a dealer for a brake job on an older car (or any car after warrantee). I had my front rotors and pads replaced at my mechanic for $360. He said Toyota parts would have cost $60 but since I was selling the car I just said use the aftermarket stuff.

[DragonZealot]

Sorry to hear about your experience. I presume you are not hard on brakes and drive your car normally. If this is the case there seems to be a quality problem on the the caliper you replaced 2 years ago or the way it was installed. Either way it is hard to prove.

I am not sure if you have a strong case here. The brake job is 2 years old so there is no warranty left. Your argument is that they inspected it 3 months ago and reported everything OK.

Well first, the inspection is 3 months old it is possible that the seize up is after the inspection. Second, brake inspection normally is just to check the thickness of the pads and the condition of the rotors and does not include "caliper lubrication".

New calipers comes lubricated and some mechanics may lub the sliders when replacing pads. Everytime I replace brake pads I check the grease on the sliders and they are fine. It is not necessary to lub this on brake inspection.

Most shops would not want to turn rotors if they been seized up because a thinner rotor is more prone to seize up. If there have been metal/metal contact they have to turn a lot of materials off, not very nice.

[djpositivek]

Well first, the inspection is 3 months old it is possible that the seize up is after the inspection. Second, brake inspection normally is just to check the thickness of the pads and the condition of the rotors and does not include "caliper lubrication".

Actually they provided me with a checklist of things they did and it included caliper lubrication and inspection. Whether they did it or not is another question. I'm thinking they may have just checked the brake pad thickness and then put checkmarks for the rest of the stuff to save time.

Anyone know what the brake pad thickness would be when new for the tercel ? They wrote down the thickness on the inspection but it doesn't tell me anything. I don't have it in front of me so I don't know the number for sure.

I know I don't have a strong case but it still sucks nonetheless. I hate getting hosed.

[waitin4BOOST]

Isn't a caliper seizing due to the seals within the caliper failing?? There is no way to tell unless they take it apart and check the seals themselves....what they should've done was rebuild the caliper the first time it seized. Seals failing are usually due to contamination in brake fluid ie. moisture, foreign material, excessive heat. Hard to say....its one of those $hit happens scenario....but at the time, it would've costed alot more for that kind of service; for an extra caliper rebuild & fluid flush.

[DragonZealot]

The most common reason of caliper seize up is heat.

Heat boils dry the grease on the slider so the caliper is binding causing the pad to press against the rotor generating more heat and boiling dry more grease until the caliper is no more floating on the slider. It is a vicious circle.

Sometimes it is the driving habbit that initially causes this to start.

When checking brakes it is important to make sure the caliper slides freely (often overlooked cause you have to take off the pads) and if needed lube with synthetic silicone grease designed for high temp operations.

[pandaharo]

I never heard of work done at dealer or any mechanic that has warranty over 1 year. You should be happy about the $60 credit, don't expect anything more.

[djpositivek]

The most common reason of caliper seize up is heat.

Heat boils dry the grease on the slider so the caliper is binding causing the pad to press against the rotor generating more heat and boiling dry more grease until the caliper is no more floating on the slider. It is a vicious circle.

Sometimes it is the driving habbit that initially causes this to start.

When checking brakes it is important to make sure the caliper slides freely (often overlooked cause you have to take off the pads) and if needed lube with synthetic silicone grease designed for high temp operations.

This is exactly what they supposedly did 3 months ago during the brake service. They have a check list and it was checked off.

Yeah I know $hit happens, but it sucks when it happens to you. It's just so frustrating when you service your car (an older one at that) regularly at the Dealership, you expect preventative maintanance and the good judgement of the mechanics to keep your car running smoothly. Hell at this rate I might as well stop servicing it and wait for something to stop working completely. I'd probably have saved some money. I mean it seems the service maintenance is useless.

Oh and definitly not a problem that was caused by driving habit. I drive this car about 400 kms/week just to work and back. I don't even drive through much city traffic (stop & go).

[DragonZealot]

You want to pull out the service order and copy it word by word here.

I am interested to see what the exact wordings are. For example, sometime when they said "Brake lubrication where necessary" really means the parking brake cable and attachment. Normally they will try to be as general as possible like "service brakes", "check brakes".

The labour to check for caliper slides is equivalent to that to replace the pads which is like 0.75 hours. It is very difficult to do a "30 point check" that includes checking caliper slides for $50.

I do understand your frustration. You paid and can not verify if they are doing the job properly. You can't even tell if they did the job.

My friend once took his car to the dealer for an oil change. He was in the waiting room and watching the car in the lot. 30 minutes later the service advisor called him and said his car is done which his has been watching his car in the lot for the whole 30 minutes and his car never went into the service bay. WTF and LOL.

[Pete_Coach]

Sorry for the long answer here. I have read your issue complaint and as I see it you have no recourse. Your car and it's braking system is working as usual and you required the maintenance that was done. No one was out to get you on this one. There is some "not so accurate" info being given you here.
Firstly, replacing rotors and pads two years ago and having to replace them again is not so bad, particularly if you are doing city driving. New type pads are made of normally soft material that wears quckly. Yes there is harder material but, it is harder on you rotors as well.
Secondly, the brake "service" the dealer did for you 3 K ago did not neccesarily include greasing anything. It more than likely included blowing out the dust, degreasing the rotors, ensuring that the rotors were not scored, making sure the parking brake (required by law) is working and lubricating it's cables pivot mechanisms etc. If the calipers were included it would have cost you over 200 dollars for the "service" because this would require the caliper to be removed, pads to be removed pistons cleaned and the sliders re-greased with a grease that is heat resistant.
All greases used by brake shops or dealers in this area is heat resitant. Brake caliper siezure is primarily caused by corrosion and/or lack of maintenance. Normally this term is used when the piston is siezed inside the caliper and will no longer move in and out. A 1998 car without any significant brake maintenance will be lucky if it is not siezed. They can also be damaged by impact or any number of ways.
Thirdly, they creditied your card $60 probably because the pads had a lifetime warantee and this was the cost of them. You most likely have no warantee on the new ones and will pay when they are worn out.
Seals are around the piston in the caliper, the piston is inside the caliper. The piston moves outwards squeezing the brake pad against the rotor. The slider is basically a long bushing where the caliper mounting bolt slides through. There will be grease on the bolt as well as on the outer part of the slider.

[tabb]

A caliper usually does not seize without prior symptoms, at least seize enough to cause you to get into an accident. ie: pulling when braking, burning smell, sluggish acceleration, uneven pad wear, rust discolouration, etc. That is not to say it may not happen under specific conditions, but usually you should experience some sort of warning indicated a problem. If your caliper had seized within 1 week of your brake inspection, or even 1 month, I could see that you may have a case. 3 months is really pushing it. You know that saying "**** happens"??

A basic brake inspection is a simple visual inspection. Unless there is a specific complaint being investigated that would require more invasive methods then the tech will simply remove your wheels, drums etc and make note of anything that visually appeared abnormal. Unless your caliper was already exibiting signs of starting to seize, there is no way the tech would be able to tell there was a problem with it. The same goes with a brake service. Unless certain telltale signs were evident, nothing short of a crystal ball or Nostrodamus could predict future problems.

There is a remote possibility that the shop used the wrong lubricating grease on you caliper sliders. If your slider's are rubber based then you must use a rubber compatable grease. If a normal petroleum based lube was used then the rubber would swell casuing your caliper(s) to stick and brakes to drag. You would still experience some symptoms though.

Thirdly, they creditied your card $60 probably because the pads had a lifetime warantee and this was the cost of them. You most likely have no warantee on the new ones and will pay when they are worn out.
Nope.....Lifetime warranty is still in effect. The OP got the credit because his pads were covered under a lifetime warranty from his origional brake job but was mistakenly charged for them the second time around. He should have been charged for everything but the pads.

[russfest]

How can you say bad toyota service experience? You had the brakes done under two years previously, and then checked three months prior. but like said they only check the rotors for scoring, the thickness of the pads, and the calipers are free.

Now to me, You saying its bad toyota service when they were fine three months previously, is like saying its the cars fault for you getting in an accident. Things happen from time to time, Sh**t happens as people say. I changed both of my front calipers on one of my vehicles, then two months later had one of them seize. I did get a new one under warranty, but things happen. Two years isnt good but isnt bad.

Everyone does what they want as well, I personally would never go to a dealer for service once it isnt required under warranty. That being said, I do my own brakes so I know they are done right, and set up how I want them. I also use high quality brake pads and brake shoes, only I use hard ones like metallic/ceramics. I also use cheap made in china rotors and drums because they are cheaper metal, and I dont care about wearing them out. I stop better and they are cheap to replace.

Hopefully that long ramble kinda made sense. I wouldnt complain, and wouldnt take it to the dealer. But you are a different person, as is everyone else.

Russ

[djpositivek]

OK here's the "word for word" of what they inspected for the brakes 3,000 kms ago.

There were 3 check boxes. 1 for OK, 1 for Suggested & 1 for Required. Everything had a check in the OK box.

Brake Hoses - Condition
Front calipers - Leaks
Piston movement
rotor condition - left
rotor condition - right
pad thickness - left (85mm)
pad thickness - right (85mm)
caliper sliders (there was also a seperate check box that said "Lubed" and it was checked)

Everything is OK, and they aren't even suggesting that anything needs to be replaced. nevermind required...
And 3,000/3 months later I need a complete brake overhaul costing $600

I'm glad you all think this is normal, I'd like to see this situation apply to you. Why does nobody take their car to the dealership after warranty is up ? Because labour is more expensive ? Well if anything, they know your car best and should be honest. So you would think if anything I was being extra diligent. In fact if I had taken my car to some crappy tire place or neglected to do my service visits well then I guess it would be my fault.

[ken_ll]

3 months and approximately 3,000 kms later I go in for a MVI and also because my brakes are sticking. I thought maybe it was a sticky emergency brake cable.

They tell me that the left front caliper is ceased up and that it wore down the brake pad to the metal and scraped the rotor. It will cost ~$600 to fix. (remanufactured caliper, new pads, shim kit, rotors + labour).
My comments are similar to others. I see three separate events here and not related to each other although it involves the brakes. I feel you received the appropriate service from the dealer. Were you taken - no. You were paying the service/parts rates of the dealership. I feel you received an honest repair. I also think you are probably better off at the dealership for repairs unless you can find another reliable garage in your location. I know they exist.

To me anyways, there was a clue to your third repair that may have been mitigated somewhat if addressed earlier. For the brake parts to wear down to the metal, coined "metal-to-metal", the caliper was seized for some time and the vehicle was probably pulling to one side - that of the seized left caliper. Just prior to the brake friction material being worn down to the metal, the wear indicator will squeal/squeak. Unless these symptoms are addressed immediately, the cost of repairs goes up. If addressed immediately, the rotor could have been salvaged, but you would still have needed to replace the caliper.

Probably at the same time, the right caliper should have been replaced also, it is only a matter of time for it also.

There are some of us that do our own work on cars and save some dollars in the process. At the same time, I have been in the same situation as you not listening to the noise/recognizing the symtoms.

[Pete_Coach]

OK here's the "word for word" of what they inspected for the brakes 3,000 kms ago.

There were 3 check boxes. 1 for OK, 1 for Suggested & 1 for Required. Everything had a check in the OK box.

Brake Hoses - Condition
Front calipers - Leaks
Piston movement
rotor condition - left
rotor condition - right
pad thickness - left (85mm)
pad thickness - right (85mm)
caliper sliders (there was also a seperate check box that said "Lubed" and it was checked)

Everything is OK, and they aren't even suggesting that anything needs to be replaced. nevermind required...
And 3,000/3 months later I need a complete brake overhaul costing $600

I'm glad you all think this is normal, I'd like to see this situation apply to you. Why does nobody take their car to the dealership after warranty is up ? Because labour is more expensive ? Well if anything, they know your car best and should be honest. So you would think if anything I was being extra diligent. In fact if I had taken my car to some crappy tire place or neglected to do my service visits well then I guess it would be my fault.

It seems that you are totaly convinced that you were taken. When I was in the buisness, there was no amount of talking that could relieve the anxiety that a customer would feel when they got a big bill. You have to understand that, as so many have told you, there are so many things that affect an automobile and it's wear of parts, that the dealer or mechanic cannot even begin to deal with the type of issue that you have. 3000km is plenty long enough to wear out your brakes.
The seized caliper may have been the piston in the caliper (it is the moving part in the assembly) and not the caliper itself, can this be correct? If the piston seizes up, then the pad is continually rubbing on the rotor, wearing it out. As you can see, there are numerous situations or conditions that can affect the brakes, none of which are the shop's fault or even yours.
Parts do wear out and, sometimes quickly.
If you turned on a light in your house, then turned it off, can you guarantee that it will work the next time you turn it off? No you can't. The point with this is the techs try as they can and can only tell you the way it is at the very moment they have the vehicle in their possesion.
As an aside, I am a big advocate of taking your car to the dealer, even after the warantee is up. I beieve that the dealer has the special tools, test equipment and "inside" information to keep you car running. Oh and, $600 is not a complete overhaul of a braking system, it costs more than that.

[tabb]

Just out of curiosity, you never mentioned how the accident happened?? Did you rear end someone?? Someone cut you off, you swerved and hit something?? You went to brake and nothing happened?? And was there not an insurance company investigation into the accident??

[djpositivek]

There was no accident. Brakes just started sticking, and I heard the noise coming from the front left wheel. So I went in for service.

Incidently if the Right front caliper were to seize up tomorrow, I should not be pissed off at the dealer ? According to most everyone this is normal to happen. The dealer didn't feel the need to replace the RF caliper yet like someone mentioned already if the LF caliper went, it's probably just a matter a time before the other one goes. And of course this would ruin my pads and rotors and I'd be out another $600.

Contrary to what some of you have said, I don't think the dealer was out to get me. I just think they neglected to replace parts before they were completely seized up and ruined the rest of my brakes. The LF caliper probably should have been replaced 35,000 kms ago. But they lubed it and were able to free it up to prolong the life. Well that's great, who wants to replace stuff when you don't have to ? But the next brake service there should have been a red flag saying we better replace this before it completely ceases to function. I'm also questioning whether the brake service was actually performed but nobody will ever know.

[djpositivek]

Oh and another thing I've been reading up on...
Brake pad thickness.

Got this from the net, not sure if it's exact for my pads but should be close...

standard front pad thickness is 11mm/.433in
minimum front pad thickness is 1mm/.039in

So mine were at 8.5mm at time if brake inspection 3,000 kms ago. This is approx. 35,000 kms since putting on the new pads/rotors. So obviously I'm not hard on brakes and if the pads weren't wore down much, neither were the rotors. Unfortunately they didn't take the thickness of the rotors during the brake inspection.

[rdtx2002]

Breaks weardown really depends on the quality of the brake.. cheaper ones tend to wear down faster.

[djpositivek]

I agree. But in this case the brakes didn't wear down. The original caliper that came with the vehicle in 1998 was not replaced when it should have been. Thus causing the rest of the brake system to have to be replaced.

Also these brakes are OEM not some cheap replacement so shouldn't wear down quickly. The pads had only wore down to 8.5mm after almost 35,000 kms of driving so they obviously weren't the problem. Neither were the rotors. Actually the calipers weren't either. Problem is with the dealership for not recognizing when a part needs to be replaced, thus causing further damage.

[ken_ll]

Problem is with the dealership for not recognizing when a part needs to be replaced, thus causing further damage.
The dealer will replace anything you want. I don't know if Toyota has a recommended time to replace calipers and if so, perhaps this should be followed. Most of the time, we replace wear items as they break down, this fully determines the end of their useful life. This applies also to radiators, starters and alternators.

You may want to consider replacing the other caliper the next time you are at the dealer. I think the dealer gave a good balance between repair cost and necessity.

Consider this for a moment - There is a national chain of stores in Halifax and here in Ottawa with auto parts and a service centre. I took my car there in 1988 to have the front pads replaced but with a free brake inspection first. Well, they wanted to replace the pads, rotors, calipers, rear shoes and as well, the brake lines. The estimate was horrendous. I replaced the pads/rotors myself. These practices still go on today, if you are not knowledgeable as to what is going on.

If you had taken your car to this national chain in Halifax, I expect you would not have gotten out of there for under $2,000+. Then you rightfully would have been screaming.

To give another real comparison from August/06. Sister in Halifax took her car with a leaky brake line to the same national chain with auto centre in Halifax to have it replaced. They wanted 4 hours labour plus part. I thought it was too much. A Toyota dealer (not necessarily the same one as yours), charged one hour labour plus part. The part comes from the dealer anyways, with a significant difference in labour cost.

Send the dealer a "thank-you card", Im beginning to think they deserve some thanks.

[tabb]

3 months and approximately 3,000 kms later I go in for a MVI and also because my brakes are sticking. I thought maybe it was a sticky emergency brake cable.


My bad. I misread your origional post and thought you wrote MVA......

Now back to your complaint. How long of an interval would have been appropriate for the dealer to not be at fault for "missing" the potentially seizing caliper?? What you are saying makes no sense. If the shop were to replace your calipers at every brake job as a pre-emptive measure, your repair costs would skyrocket. Many times when giving a repair estimate, the recommendations must be weighed against cost, necessity and excess.

Replace too much and be accused of scamming. Replace too little and be accused to shoddy workmanship. In your case, the dealer did nothing wrong. Your origional brake job lasted almost 2 years. They inspected your brakes over 3 months/3000kms ago and found nothing wrong. They did not try and sell you brakes when you did not need them. Nothing lasts forever. Everything will wear out sooner or later.

You drove the car for 3 months/3000kms after the inspection AND HAD NO PROBLEMS( this is in addition to the fact that the brakes were already amost 2 years old). What do you want?? There is no crystal ball nor chicken bones to read here. There was no way to tell that far ahead of time that your caliper is going to seize. If you had left the shop and suddenly you lost your brakes, then maybe you would get some sympathy here, but 3 months??? How long did your "sticky" brake problem persist before you took it in to get looked at?? I'm guessing it did not occur right after you left the shop.

I beleive the saying S**T Happens totally applies here. Move on, get over it, life goes on.

[sixer]

^ Show the brother some sympathy, lol

[noob666]

^ Show the brother some sympathy, lol

well, i do feel bad for OP

but

stuff like this with wear and tear does happen ! as some poster said it's seems like there is 3 different things happen and none are really co-related.

we all want everything works fine but things like this do happen

i brought a new tire and it blow off after a month after i purchase it, i can't really blame the seller sold me something defective, right ? i am just luck out and need to get another tire.

[fastlayne]

^ Show the brother some sympathy, lol

Do you think the OP still owns this vehicle? After all this is a thread from 2006!