Ivey and Waterloo

[rey1867]

So, Im entering grade 12 and am pretty nervous

I want to go to waterloo for accounting because the program is so reputed and fast tracks the path to become a CA

However, Im a bit scared that I will end up not liking accounting. I know high school accounting and university accounting are different.

So, I thought that if I got admission into both Ivey and Waterloo, I could cover my risks. If you get early acceptance from Ivey, you are guaranteed a place in their biz school in your 3rd and 4th year provided you maintain a 80% average.
On the website it also says that I can enter through a different university if I get the early admission (Academic Excellence Opportunity).

So, if I could maintain an 80 average at the Public accounting program in waterloo, I would always have the chance to change programs and go to Ivey at the end of my second year.

Im pretty sure that I will receive admissions from both universities because I have already completed 2 grade 12 courses (English and Comp. Eng.) I got 89 in English and 95 in Comp. eng. Am hoping to get a high mark in comp sci too and will hopefully increase my overall average with the help of easy courses (families, societies).

So, I was wondering if my plan is any good and would like some feedback from other members over here.

I was specifically interested in knowing how hard maintaining an 80 average in the public accounting program.

Any suggestion, criticisms or recommendations will be greatly appreciated.

[poorwingman]

UW is focused primarily on acc't. Although acc't and obtaining the CA designation, in particular, opens many doors, it is a long and painful process. It is not the highest paid position in business either.

Business is a broad field and Ivey will teach you other aspects that UW will not: marketing, operations, hr etc...

If you plan to go to UW for acc't for 2 yrs before going to Ivey, consider that it will be much harder to get that 80 avg @ UW than in a general arts program at another school.

Some things to consider about UW
- not everyone gets a job at a big 4 firm (however, you can always swith to a big4 firm later in your career. just note that it isn't a given)
- you have to go to coop (i.e. you can't spend your summers travelling or doing fun stuff)
- if you pursue the MAcc degree, you will be exempt from the CKE and SOA

Some things about ivey
- pretty much all ivey grads that want big4 jobs, pretty much get it.
- you will have the opportunity to seek jobs in non-accounting related fields
- you will have more flexibilty to decide how you will spend your summers
- UWO is way more fun. Don't forget that uni is sposed to be about the experience as well.

You should check out the campuses and spend a weekend with friends that are there. There is a huge difference in the culture at the different schools. Ultimately, I think Ivey gives its grads more options and I think it's the better choice if you're not sure if accounting is for you.

edit:
there's a lot of discussion on RFD about obtaining the CA designation.
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291951
Post 6 and 10 of this thread also support the idea that you should go to an elite general business program if you can get in since it opens other doors other than just the CA path

[adehbone]

ok...what you are planning to do is very tough.....lets get some things clear first off...before you take your 2 maths....and accounting.....your 95 in comp eng and comp sci in HS are ****.......you need to ace your maths and accounting...i mean atleast a couple 90s....if you want acceptance to both AEOatUWO and AFMatUW..

getting an 80 in first 2 years at UW afm, is a given if you get less than 75% first yr they will kick you out...send you packing..............................which a guy on my floor first year felt with a 74.6% avg...there is a whole bunch of ppl with 90avgs looking to get into AFM in 2nd yr badly....so when they say 75, they mean 75!

second year is harder but I have friends who got 80+ rather easily.....you will also have one co-op term by then...alot of ppl got big4 jobs at their first co-op even...but it is rather hard...

a guy in Math/CA this year, got into Ivey, he wants to be an IBer....dont know if he accepted....getting into Ivey is whole lot more than 80avg for 2 years....alot of extra stuff.......i know a guy who made the leap from Mac commerce with an 84avg so its possible.....remember you gotta meet the BUS257 credit too

afm is a great option if you wanna do accouting...but the program is very tough and competitive......i would say hands down Ivey is the better program and atmosphere....but if you love accounting so much and CA.....afm is the program for you

[rey1867]

so, even if I get the AEO at Ivey, I may not be given admission into HBA in the 3rd and 4th years if my extra curicullars arent up to par ????

Also, I know that my comp eng and comp sci marks are useless, but they do pad up my average.

Am hoping for a 90 in calculus and data, but my previous math mark was in the seventies.

Its not like I love accounting as Im too young to really know that. I just thought about all the professions that I can go to once in business. If I do the HBA at Ivey, I will either become an accountant, Investment Banker or go into marketing. There are other fields, but I dont list them as they are generally lower paying. From what I have hear, marketing is the hardest to find a job in because everyone does it.

If I become an accountant, I can look forward to companies working me till death until I get my CA. Investment Banking is tough because you gotta work crazy hours.

So, I figured that if I took the easy route to become a CA and then I could go into Investment Banking where the pay is much higher.

I am leaning towards Ivey, but it is still hard for me to decide as I dont want to end up regretting my decision if I ultimately do go into accounting and have to do all those tests.

Also, if I go to Ivey, I will miss out on coop and my resume wont be as good if I go to Waterloo.

Im not saying that Im right, Im just saying what I have heard. You guys obviously know a lot more than me.

And one more question. Since the HBA program is only 2 years long, is it much harder than the programs at Schulich or Queens ??

[coolspot]

Im pretty sure that I will receive admissions from both universities because I have already completed 2 grade 12 courses (English and Comp. Eng.) I got 89 in English and 95 in Comp. eng. Am hoping to get a high mark in comp sci too and will hopefully increase my overall average with the help of easy courses (families, societies).


It's not only about the marks! Just remember to have some extra-curricular activities and references to pad your resume.

What I mean by extra-curricular is stuff like voluteering at community organizations and not playing video games :p

Waterloo's CA program is a good choice - unless you end up to hate accounting, I don't think you'll regret it. If you do hate accounting, you can transfer to something else - CS, Math Business, or to another university.

[sumfunny]

If you get AEO you have to do your first 2 years at western. Otherwise you can reapply for year 3,4 of Ivey from waterloo

[00dimsum00]

Also Waterloo CA program is a good choice - unless you end up to hate accounting, I don't think you'll regret it. If you do hate accounting, you can transfer to something else - CS, Math Business, or to another university.

I totally agree..i just graduated from the CA program in Waterloo. I cant say I love accounting - but I dont regret going through it because I'm pretty set career wise (though i HATED 2nd/3rd year), its a good background to have since you can apply your business knowledge to many things, cant go wrong with it.

Go to Waterloo if you dont like it transfer to Ivey (had a person in my year do that..and he's extremely happy as well). But if you're really unsure if what you want to do, go to Ivey and test out the waters..cause the CA program is very specific, you wont get a chance to take marketing/advertising type classes

[rey1867]

If you get AEO you have to do your first 2 years at western. Otherwise you can reapply for year 3,4 of Ivey from waterloo

thx for clearing that up for me

btw, do you go to ivey ??? If so, could you please just elaborate a bit more on the work load that they give you in the hba program and how many hours you have to study every week.

I totally agree..i just graduated from the CA program in Waterloo. I cant say I love accounting - but I dont regret going through it because I'm pretty set career wise (though i HATED 2nd/3rd year), its a good background to have since you can apply your business knowledge to many things, cant go wrong with it.

Go to Waterloo if you dont like it transfer to Ivey (had a person in my year do that..and he's extremely happy as well). But if you're really unsure if what you want to do, go to Ivey and test out the waters..cause the CA program is very specific, you wont get a chance to take marketing/advertising type classes

If you dont mind me asking, what field are you working in right now. You probly still have a few months remaining before you get your CA designation, but after that will you go to investment banking or auditing, etc.

The thing is, I want money (like everyone else) and I like handling/managing money. Its hard to explain why, but I have never liked sciences. I got okay marks, but I never enjoyed them.

The payment charts show that accountants earn the 2nd most behind doctors, but one of my cousins told me that those figures are inaccurate because a lot of accountants go and do investment banking.

So, if I do graduate from the public accounting program, what exactly will I do????

Also, could you just explain how many hours per week you studied at waterloo.

Also, I know that Waterloo is the best for accounting, but is Ivey the best business school in Canada (Ive heard their career placement services is the best).

And one last question, after you have 4 yrs of experience, you can apply for the CFA. Will that designation mean a lot if you dont have any investment banking experience ???

[poorwingman]

i think you need to understand that getting a CA is not the easy way into i-banking. getting a CA is painful and treacherous with many road blocks that you may or may not overcome the first time around.

if you're really serious about i-banking, you should just go to ivey and try to get an i-banking job right away. ivey's academics as well as its network of alumni and recruiters will help you find better employment than Rotman or Schulich where the programs are so big

[rey1867]

i think you need to understand that getting a CA is not the easy way into i-banking. getting a CA is painful and treacherous with many road blocks that you may or may not overcome the first time around.

if you're really serious about i-banking, you should just go to ivey and try to get an i-banking job right away. ivey's academics as well as its network of alumni and recruiters will help you find better employment than Rotman or Schulich where the programs are so big

I know that getting the CA is hard, but provided I graduate from the Waterloo program, several obstacles are removed from my path.

Im not really interested in investment banking, but I have heard that most CAs do eventually go into i-banking because of the money.

[trusoulja2g]

Having just graduated from undergrad commerce and going the CA route...I think it's a no brainer to go to the most prestigious school you can get into. There is a huge difference when it comes to recruiting.

Going to Ivey will get you into Big 4 very easily - just as easy if not easier than Waterloo. The only advantage at Waterloo is that you get your CA about a year quicker and basically have a year's head start since you start as a senior after 5 yrs uni. But that's at the sacrifice of a better, more well rounded business education.

If you're in it for the money, Ivey's for you. IB and MC pay much more than CA. Of course, they're much more cometitive to get into and the hours are much worse. The previous post almost implies the CA is harder than IB...definitely not the case. But I agree that CA is not a route to being an I-banker. Getting into IB is about going to the right school (in Canada, that would be Ivey), being near the top of your class, and getting recruited.

So IMO, if you have the opportunity to go to Ivey, go. If you end up choosing the relatively "easy" career (CA instead of IB/MC), it'll be just as easy getting a Big 4 job there.

[poorwingman]

Im not really interested in investment banking, but I have heard that most CAs do eventually go into i-banking because of the money.

that's a lie. most would indicate >50%.

as a CA student i don't think that's true. i think a minority go into i-banking.

a CA designation doesn't guarantee a career in i-banking. in order to get into i-banking, (typically) a newly qualified CA would move into the transaction advisory or M&A department of his/her big4 firm or at another big4 firm to gain some experience before moving into i-banking. not everyone has an opportunity to move into said departments.


If you're in it for the money, Ivey's for you. IB and MC pay much more than CA. Of course, they're much more cometitive to get into and the hours are much worse.

i don't know about that. ivey kids still partied a lot. they still loved it and had a great time.

it seems like UW is really stressful and not as fun.

[crowdpuller]

i'd suggest ivey...this was a no brainer!

[rey1867]

that's a lie. most would indicate >50%.

as a CA student i don't think that's true. i think a minority go into i-banking.

a CA designation doesn't guarantee a career in i-banking. in order to get into i-banking, (typically) a newly qualified CA would move into the transaction advisory or M&A department of his/her big4 firm or at another big4 firm to gain some experience before moving into i-banking. not everyone has an opportunity to move into said departments.


i don't know about that. ivey kids still partied a lot. they still loved it and had a great time.

it seems like UW is really stressful and not as fun.

What do you plan on doing once you finally get your CA ???

Due to my lack of knowledge, I really dont know what I will do once I get the CA designation.

Also, dont the Big 4 recruit from Waterloo as well as Ivey ?????? Im assuming you go to waterloo, if so how is the competition like ??? Are there a bunch of 90s ?? Also, is co op guaranteed to you after 1st year ??

[poorwingman]

What do you plan on doing once you finally get your CA ???

Due to my lack of knowledge, I really dont know what I will do once I get the CA designation.

Also, dont the Big 4 recruit from Waterloo as well as Ivey ?????? Im assuming you go to waterloo, if so how is the competition like ??? Are there a bunch of 90s ?? Also, is co op guaranteed to you after 1st year ??

i haven't decided what to do once i get the CA

I'm not a UW student but i'm familiar with many ppl who have gone through that program.

Big4 firms recruit from UT (St. george, utm, utsc), UW, UWO, Queen's, York and a little at brock. i haven't heard of a mac commerce grad in acc't but that might be just my experience and circle of friends.

Co-op is not guaranteed at UW. My ballpark guess from my friend's experience is that 50% of the class might get big4 jobs during co-op. This isn't a big a deal because you can easily switch from a small firm to a big firm after you pass the UFE.

FYI, if you go to Ivey, you should be able to get a summer internship. Students at other schools get summer internships but it seems like Ivey kids have an easier time of getting good summer jobs than biz students at other schools.

A general comment about UWO vs. UW. RFD is pretty pro-UW. If you look at other threads such as back to school or co-op's advantages, you'll see that many ppl are pro-UW and go to UW. In contrast, the general consensus in this thread so far is for you to go to Ivey if you have the opportunity. I think that shows the value of a an elite general business degree compared to a focused accounting degree.

[rey1867]

i haven't decided what to do once i get the CA



What I mean is, what are your options after getting a CA designation other that Investment Banking ???

[poorwingman]

What I mean is, what are your options after getting a CA designation other that Investment Banking ???

i guess there's 3 things anyone can do.
1. stay in public acc't. (you can try to become mgr, sr mgr, and then partner)
2. do whatever you want. start a business, start our own practise. this is the "the world is your oyster" answer so #3 may be more realistc.
3. get a job in industry. check out http://www.cica.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/7025/la_id/1.htm for more examples of what CA's do

[coolspot]

I think the vast majority of CAs choose option #3 :)

[rey1867]

i guess there's 3 things anyone can do.
1. stay in public acc't. (you can try to become mgr, sr mgr, and then partner)
2. do whatever you want. start a business, start our own practise. this is the "the world is your oyster" answer so #3 may be more realistc.
3. get a job in industry. check out http://www.cica.ca/index.cfm/ci_id/7025/la_id/1.htm for more examples of what CA's do

If I do decide to stay in public accounting, what will the pay and hours be like ??

Also, option 3 seems a bit vague. Do you mean that I could work at a bank or for a company and audit or handle other financial information ? If so, will it be more enjoyable than public accounting in terms of both money, hours and interest.

Also, is the CA as good as it is hyped up to be or will the job market saturate down the road ??

[rey1867]

If I do decide to stay in public accounting, what will the pay and hours be like ??

Also, option 3 seems a bit vague. Do you mean that I could work at a bank or for a company and audit or handle other financial information ? If so, will it be more enjoyable than public accounting in terms of both money, hours and interest.

Also, is the CA as good as it is hyped up to be or will the job market saturate down the road ??



http://www.lannick.com/salary_survey.php

This survey has me a bit freaked out

[coolspot]

http://www.lannick.com/salary_survey.php

This survey has me a bit freaked out

The pay is decent - 70K for a fresh CA.

No one said becoming a CA will make you rich beyond your dreams. But just like a doctor, lawyer, etc... it's a good stable job with good pay.

[rey1867]

The pay is decent - 70K for a fresh CA.

No one said becoming a CA will make you rich beyond your dreams. But just like a doctor, lawyer, etc... it's a good stable job with good pay.

yeah the pay is actually very good but it has been on the decline, and I still have around 6 years until I can become CA.

[poorwingman]

If I do decide to stay in public accounting, what will the pay and hours be like ??

Also, option 3 seems a bit vague. Do you mean that I could work at a bank or for a company and audit or handle other financial information ? If so, will it be more enjoyable than public accounting in terms of both money, hours and interest.

Also, is the CA as good as it is hyped up to be or will the job market saturate down the road ??

http://www.lannick.com/salary_survey.php

This survey has me a bit freaked out



there are lots of threads about CA salaries. but typically, the hours in public accounting are always bad. the easiest time will be during co-op or your first 2 years of full time work.

i don't know if the job market will saturate or not. when i get a crystal ball, i'll let you know. imo, it's unlikely that the market will get saturated for two reaosns.

First, the profession wants to protect its status and if it foresees saturation, it will simply raise the barrier to entry and make the exams harder and the academic and experience requirements higher.

Second, even if they don't foresee saturation, the current requirements are very high which will still make the designation very valuable. so in the wake of any saturation, CAs will take their skills elsewhere in business outside of traditional CA jobs such as financial reporting and internal control and squeeze non-CAs out of jobs.

I believe you're reading the survey wrong. I think you're reading it as if CA salaries have decreased over the last 9 years. that is wrong.

The survey should be read be read as follows:
In Spring 2006, _______________________ (insert line from below)
a) a CA that earned the designation in 2006 earned 69k on average.
b) a CA that earned the designation in 2005 earned 77k on average.
c) a CA that earned the designation in 2004 earned 83.6k on average.
etc...

This makes sense because as a CA gets more experience, their salary will increase.

The survey also doesn't reflect differences for location and industry. For exmaple, salaries in the financial services industry and in the GTA typically pay higher. Another survey for your reading pleasure http://www.icao.on.ca/CA/CompensationSurvey/page4862.aspx

[nejo]

Just to add a few comments to the post. I wouldn't count out other business programs, comparing undergraduate business degrees is not the same as comparing MBA programs. IMHO there isn't that much of a difference in undergrad programs. Recruiters visit lots of business schools in fact the top four accounting firms visit Ryerson as well. Despite what others posted, Ivey is actually much larger than Schulich and has recently doubled it's size - Schulich only admits about 250 BBA students and 90 IBBA students each year + it's way cheaper than UofT and Ivey as it isn't de-regulated yet. Having said that, it is really tough to gain admission, the cut off is low 90's and you need a solid supplementary application - less than 10% of the applicant pool are admitted. One bonus though is that it is a direct entry b-school, you start studying business from day 1. As some one who works in recruitment, I would encourage you to find the right fit, most of the networking that takes place at b-schools occurs at the graduate level. If you plan on being a CA, Laurier might also be another school for you to consider, there are actually a lot of schools that will offer you the 51 credit-hour requirement for your CA, so I would encourage you to keep your doors open.

All the best!

Nejo

[TheGoods07]

Pardon my ignorance, but what are the "big 4" that is being mentioned?

[poorwingman]

Pardon my ignorance, but what are the "big 4" that is being mentioned?
PriceWaterhouseCoopers
Deloitte& Touche
KPMG
Ernst & Young

[rey1867]

Just to add a few comments to the post. I wouldn't count out other business programs, comparing undergraduate business degrees is not the same as comparing MBA programs. IMHO there isn't that much of a difference in undergrad programs. Recruiters visit lots of business schools in fact the top four accounting firms visit Ryerson as well. Despite what others posted, Ivey is actually much larger than Schulich and has recently doubled it's size - Schulich only admits about 250 BBA students and 90 IBBA students each year + it's way cheaper than UofT and Ivey as it isn't de-regulated yet. Having said that, it is really tough to gain admission, the cut off is low 90's and you need a solid supplementary application - less than 10% of the applicant pool are admitted. One bonus though is that it is a direct entry b-school, you start studying business from day 1. As some one who works in recruitment, I would encourage you to find the right fit, most of the networking that takes place at b-schools occurs at the graduate level. If you plan on being a CA, Laurier might also be another school for you to consider, there are actually a lot of schools that will offer you the 51 credit-hour requirement for your CA, so I would encourage you to keep your doors open.

All the best!

Nejo

since you are a recruiter, I was just wondering if you could provide some information as to which university's undergrads are the most well versed and knowledgable.

Also, would you take a guy from Ivey over a guy from Schulich or Queens even if they had the same grade and similar extra curricular activities?

In your opinion which are the elite b-schools for undergraduate degrees (Top 2 or 3).

Thx

[rey1867]

From what I have gathered so far, If I manage to go to either Ivey or Waterloo and then graduate, I should have no troubles landing a comfy job.

I think that Waterloo is probly the best choice for me because of the CO-OP and the CA factor. I figure I should take the risk as the advantages of public accounting at waterloo are high.

Although, I think I have opened this thread a bit too early. Hopefully I will get into public accounting (pray for me).

Thank you to everyone that posted and do keep on posting new information.

Thx

[coolspot]

yeah the pay is actually very good but it has been on the decline, and I still have around 6 years until I can become CA.


The chart doesn't show any historical data... Only current pay rates for different experience levels?

[rey1867]

The chart doesn't show any historical data... Only current pay rates for different experience levels?

yeah, I realized that after wingman pointed it out

I didnt understand the chart correctly :razz:

[trusoulja2g]

From what I have gathered so far, If I manage to go to either Ivey or Waterloo and then graduate, I should have no troubles landing a comfy job.

I think that Waterloo is probly the best choice for me because of the CO-OP and the CA factor. I figure I should take the risk as the advantages of public accounting at waterloo are high.

Although, I think I have opened this thread a bit too early. Hopefully I will get into public accounting (pray for me).

Thank you to everyone that posted and do keep on posting new information.

Thx

CAs in industry (aforementioned option #3) are usually in management positions in the finance dept of a company. A newly qualified CA might start as an assistant-controller and advance to positions like controller, director of finance, CFO, etc.

I think you're right in that both UW AFM and Ivey HBA will likely lead to a respectable, well paying job (assuming that you continue to work hard and position yourself well once you get in). The advantage of Ivey is that it opens up doors to IB and MC careers that pay a lot more than CA and are only available through elite schools. The only advantage of UW AFM is that it's about one year quicker and skip 2 exams for the CA.

I doubt that high school gives you enough exposure to business courses (accounting, finance and marketing) for you to assess whether you like accounting more than finance or consulting...so don't lock yourself in a lesser paying career just because UW offers a shortcut to the CA. Consider that a first-year IB analyst makes 90K+ after bonus - the work might not be for you, but it's nice to leave that option available. DO NOT go the CA route thinking you'll make the switch to IB later on - that's simply not the case. The few CAs who do make the switch are doing so after taking an elite MBA program, where they're competing with engineers, mathematicians, etc. for those IB jobs. IB recruiting starts with going to an elite school (undergrad or MBA)...CA isn't really relevant to that.

[poorwingman]

since you are a recruiter, I was just wondering if you could provide some information as to which university's undergrads are the most well versed and knowledgable.

Also, would you take a guy from Ivey over a guy from Schulich or Queens even if they had the same grade and similar extra curricular activities?

In your opinion which are the elite b-schools for undergraduate degrees (Top 2 or 3).

Thx

Be careful when you're labelling fellow RFDers as recruiters. The Big4 firms probably have a team of 4 ppl max that are responsible for recruiting. The rest of the ppl that show up from the firm aren't necessarily recruiters - they're probably CAs or CA students from the firm that are there to support the recruiting session. Also, they might only have little influence over the hiring decision. That being said, you have to talk to the right people. After information session, they might trade notes to see which students are good candidates.


Ivey > Queens > Schulich, Rotman. Like i said in earlier posts, the alumni connection is stronger through Queens and Ivey. People that went to Queens and UWO love their school and love fellow alumni. I don't think there's any empirical evidence to support this but its evident through the cultures at the different schools. However, all things equal (marks, extra curriculars etc), i think it comes down to the candidate and how much they like you.

with regards to the market saturation of CAs, my answer before is just what i tell myself so i can sleep better at night. lol. i may or may not be right but it makes sense to me. if you're worried about saturation, you might be better off pursuing an elite general business degree so you wouldn't have to commit yourself so early to becoming a CA

[Clueless Fox]

i haven't bothered to read all the replies so this may have already been suggested but here's something you can try if you choose to go to waterloo (i'm doing this currently), instead of accounting, enroll in the math/bus - finance program.. though the program is geared towards CFA and all, a lot of its courses overlap with the accounting ones, and you get your feet wet in other business areas such as marketing, HR etc etc. if you want to pursue accounting once you've spent some time in the math/bus program, you can take extra courses at laurier and give your UFE (accounting exam) and apply for co op jobs that qualify for your 'accounting hours' requied, you'll be all set.

the accounting program is very much focused on accounting only, and very little else. you would probably end up having higher paying co-op jobs (to make up for 3X the tuition fees you'll be paying), but if you are unsure that you may not like it, consider going into a program that covers a broader range of areas. besides that, whatever program you go into, just keep your grades up (which will be hard as hell, depending on what kind of student you are), and you can switch into/out of any program.

lastly...you shouldn't go into a 'well known' university thinking that it will be a sure way to a great career. when you enter the working world, no one, and i mean no one, asks you about your schooling history, because at that point everything is all about your aptitude and attitude. there are a bunch of articles floating around on this issue.

[VisionZ]

I know that getting the CA is hard, but provided I graduate from the Waterloo program, several obstacles are removed from my path.

Im not really interested in investment banking, but I have heard that most CAs do eventually go into i-banking because of the money.

I'm not quite sure where you got this from, but many CAs do not go into i-banking, although many do leave public accounting for various types of industry jobs. I-banking and Public Accounting are different careers, and as someone had stated before, getting a CA to go into IB is not the most efficient way.

It seems that you are unsure of where you want to go, what you want to do, but rather are more intent on landing a stable job with good pay.

Since you are still in high school, if your high school offers unpaid co-op placements, try and take advantage of these programs to get a feel of what an accounting job is like, then you can make a better decision to see if accounting is right for you. You have to know what you are getting into. If that isn't possible then I would suggest talking to as many people who are in the fields you are interested in, to try and get a feel of what working in IB or Audit or MC etc ... is really like. You can't always take one or two people's word for it as everyone will have different experiences, but the more people you talk to, the better.

I was in the same boat as you a few years ago, but I ended up taking UW Public Accounting. In public accounting, you'll meet a lot of great people from many different companies whom you will be able to network with, and even with the many other co-op students you'll be working with. You'll see many different companies and work with top executives that you may never get to meet elsewhere, through audit. The best part is, you get to see how they run their businesses to develop business solutions that can be applicable to any business. You won't get this exposure in I-banking. Yes you make a lot of money in I-banking, but your time there will be limited, whereas your skills and knowledge acquired through your CA training will always be in demand.

One thing, though, don't get your hopes too high up for UW accounting.The cut off for the incoming froshies this year was around 93%, I believe 92.7% to be precise. Yes they do hand pick a few individuals from below the cut-off, but not many. This is a ridiculously high average considering Queens Com, Schulich and Ivey, elite business programs, all had cut offs at around 88%. The odds of getting into one of these programs are much better.

Lastly, I wouldn't be too concerned about where you go. Yes some places will give you a slight advantage in some fields over others, but for the most part if you work hard in school, get involved and have fun, and do your research, you'll still be able to get to wherever you want to go. As nejo stated, it's about finding the right fit in where you work and what university you go to. You have to be content being there to be at your best. I mean, why work hard if you dislike where you are?

So talk to people and go visit the campuses to see if they are right for you. Who knows, maybe you'll end up liking Schulich in the end.

[trusoulja2g]

One thing, though, don't get your hopes too high up for UW accounting.The cut off for the incoming froshies this year was around 93%, I believe 92.7% to be precise. Yes they do hand pick a few individuals from below the cut-off, but not many. This is a ridiculously high average considering Queens Com, Schulich and Ivey, elite business programs, all had cut offs at around 88%. The odds of getting into one of these programs are much better.

Clearly the ICAO has been doing a fantastic job in promoting the profession! When I was in high school, I had never even heard of the CA. Unfortunately their director of career information (very nice guy) recently passed away.

[rey1867]

@ trusoulja2g - what does MC stand for ???

So I was talking to a guy who is going to graduate with a BCom and go the IB route.

He told me that he expects to get paid around $250000 after he has 6 yrs of experience and an mba from a reputed b-school.

Is that a realistic expectation for an investment banker. That salary is excluding bonuses.

Do CAs get bonuses ???

Also, is an MBA very important nowadays ??

[charliebrown]

@ trusoulja2g - what does MC stand for ???

So I was talking to a guy who is going to graduate with a BCom and go the IB route.

He told me that he expects to get paid around $250000 after he has 6 yrs of experience and an mba from a reputed b-school.

Is that a realistic expectation for an investment banker. That salary is excluding bonuses.

Do CAs get bonuses ???

Also, is an MBA very important nowadays ??

IB salaries + bonuses can be quite staggering -- although you have to keep in mind that within those 6 yrs, he's probably working on avg 80-100 hrs a wk (if not more). Few CAs will be at the 250k mark unless they're CFO/partner level and probably wouldnt hit that mark until 10+ yrs after designation

Depending on the industry, bonuses will vary SIGNIFICANTLY. Dont expect much when you're getting your 30 mth practical experience at an accounting firm (although some firms will have a surprise BROWN ($100) or RED ($50) day every so often)

[nejo]

"One thing, though, don't get your hopes too high up for UW accounting.The cut off for the incoming froshies this year was around 93%, I believe 92.7% to be precise. Yes they do hand pick a few individuals from below the cut-off, but not many. This is a ridiculously high average considering Queens Com, Schulich and Ivey, elite business programs, all had cut offs at around 88%. The odds of getting into one of these programs are much better. "

The cut off for Schulich was low 90's in fact if I'm not mistaken it was about a 93%, so it is probably just as tough.

Nejo

[VisionZ]

"One thing, though, don't get your hopes too high up for UW accounting.The cut off for the incoming froshies this year was around 93%, I believe 92.7% to be precise. Yes they do hand pick a few individuals from below the cut-off, but not many. This is a ridiculously high average considering Queens Com, Schulich and Ivey, elite business programs, all had cut offs at around 88%. The odds of getting into one of these programs are much better. "

The cut off for Schulich was low 90's in fact if I'm not mistaken it was about a 93%, so it is probably just as tough.

Nejo

Yes I agree they are just as tough, but these programs accept more than Waterloo's PA program which has capped the program at 100 students each year.

Maybe it was 93% for iBBA, but many people that I know and have talked to who were rejected from the UW accounting program were admitted by Schulich's regular BBA.

[nejo]

Could be a possibility - but not with grades lower than 90%, I happen to work at York. Plus UW's WPA program does not require calculus for admission so that average would be inflated - last years admission cut off for WPA was a high 80's. My guess is that there were probably more students that were rejected from Schulich that ended up at UW. In the end, it's really about finding the right fit, check out each campus and talk to current students.

Cheers,

Nejo

[trusoulja2g]

@ trusoulja2g - what does MC stand for ???

So I was talking to a guy who is going to graduate with a BCom and go the IB route.

He told me that he expects to get paid around $250000 after he has 6 yrs of experience and an mba from a reputed b-school.

Is that a realistic expectation for an investment banker. That salary is excluding bonuses.

Do CAs get bonuses ???

Also, is an MBA very important nowadays ??

MC stands for management consulting (including strategy consulting). Firms like McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group, Accenture, etc. There are several threads about it on this forum.

250K salary for IB after 6 years is realistic. Also, Bonuses in IB make up 50% or more of total compensation. Also, most people cannot handle it for 6 years due to the hours and stress. Many IB'ers move onto general management positions, or investment-related fields like private equity or asset management. But income wise, there is no comparison between CA and IB.

MBA is very common for finance and marketing people, including IB'ers. For IB, if one is hired out of BCom as an analyst, he/she will go do an MBA after 2 years (paid for by the firm) and return as an associate. It's not common in public accounting. Some CAs in industry get an MBA to advance their advancement prospects; that is more on a case-by-case basis (depends on the requirements of their employer).

[rey1867]

MC stands for management consulting (including strategy consulting). Firms like McKinsey, Boston Consulting Group, Accenture, etc. There are several threads about it on this forum.

250K salary for IB after 6 years is realistic. Also, Bonuses in IB make up 50% or more of total compensation. Also, most people cannot handle it for 6 years due to the hours and stress. Many IB'ers move onto general management positions, or investment-related fields like private equity or asset management. But income wise, there is no comparison between CA and IB.

MBA is very common for finance and marketing people, including IB'ers. For IB, if one is hired out of BCom as an analyst, he/she will go do an MBA after 2 years (paid for by the firm) and return as an associate. It's not common in public accounting. Some CAs in industry get an MBA to advance their advancement prospects; that is more on a case-by-case basis (depends on the requirements of their employer).

For investment banking, how likely is it that your own firm pays for your mba. after all it is a huge investment for a company. also, do they make you sign a contract so you just have to work with them for a certain period of time ??

From what I have heard, experience is the most important thing in business, so do undergrads get a chance to work at an investment bank during their time at university.

I will admit that IB looks very appealing because of the money but the 90-100 hrs a week seems crazy.

How long does it generally take for an analyst to get promoted to an associate ?? Do associates also have to work crazy hours or does the work ease up ???

And, do investment bankers work 80-100 hrs per week for the rest of their lives ???? (I know the answer is no, but generally for how many years do they have to work their ass off like crazy ???)

[coolspot]

For investment banking, how likely is it that your own firm pays for your mba. after all it is a huge investment for a company. also, do they make you sign a contract so you just have to work with them for a certain period of time ??


Certain companies require you to be at a certain level before they'll pay for your MBA. Other companies require a commitment after you get your MBA (3 - 5 years).


And, do investment bankers work 80-100 hrs per week for the rest of their lives ???? (I know the answer is no, but generally for how many years do they have to work their ass off like crazy ???)

Most retire, quit, or move onto other less stressful jobs are ~2 - 5 years. Not very many make investment banking their fulltime career.

The money is great, but the hours suck :)

[00dimsum00]

\

If you dont mind me asking, what field are you working in right now. You probly still have a few months remaining before you get your CA designation, but after that will you go to investment banking or auditing, etc.

The payment charts show that accountants earn the 2nd most behind doctors, but one of my cousins told me that those figures are inaccurate because a lot of accountants go and do investment banking.

So, if I do graduate from the public accounting program, what exactly will I do????

Also, could you just explain how many hours per week you studied at waterloo.

Also, I know that Waterloo is the best for accounting, but is Ivey the best business school in Canada (Ive heard their career placement services is the best).

And one last question, after you have 4 yrs of experience, you can apply for the CFA. Will that designation mean a lot if you dont have any investment banking experience ???

sorry for the delay..havent been checking posts recently..
1) im actually writing my UFE (the last exam) in two weeks time..so I havent' gotten my designation --> once i'm done that i'll be returning to work with one of the big 4 accounting firms and still have at least a year to go..not sure what i'll do after that though too far ahead

2) Most of the people that are older than me from Waterloo have left the field, and as well most of my coworkers (i've been with my firm since 2nd year) have left as well --> most people go into industry (meaning work for corporate companies as controllers/managers etc), i've seen some go into I-banking

3) money isnt everything (okay who am i kidding..it has a lot to do with everything) --> yes we get paid fairly well --> but its the same for a lot of professional jobs so you shouldnt base anything on pay (ie. my friends that graduated from CS have a higher starting salary than me..so its all relative)

4) school hours --> this also really depends, first 3 years i studied just enough to scrape by..maybe 4 hours a week? then 24hours for exams. Whereas there are people in the program that study 4+ hours each day. I was a slacker didnt care too much for honor role..so it really depends..as well i picked up stuff a lot faster..so i cant really give you advice on how much studying u'll be doing.

[00dimsum00]

I think you're right in that both UW AFM and Ivey HBA will likely lead to a respectable, well paying job (assuming that you continue to work hard and position yourself well once you get in). The advantage of Ivey is that it opens up doors to IB and MC careers that pay a lot more than CA and are only available through elite schools. The only advantage of UW AFM is that it's about one year quicker and skip 2 exams for the CA.


just to clarify the UW program is not really faster, because of co-op you end up being in school for 5 years vs the normal 3-4 years for a BA (so other people could just as easily take the UFE the same year as you). But your hours do go towards your designation so its faster in that you already have 16months towards your CA hours + you skip the first two exams.

[rey1867]

does anyone know what percent of 2nd, 3rd and 4th year waterloo public accounting students actually get a job for co-op ?? I know co-op isnt guaranteed and that is why I dont want to base my decision solely on it.

[coolspot]

does anyone know what percent of 2nd, 3rd and 4th year waterloo public accounting students actually get a job for co-op ?? I know co-op isnt guaranteed and that is why I dont want to base my decision solely on it.

The stats are on Waterloo's Jobmine... maybe someone can post them - but I'll guess that the employment rate is in the high 80s - 90s.

[Tomato_1]

Just an FYI about Ivey´s HBA currently there are 4 secitons with about 50-70 people in a section (At least that is what somebody told me) I think they want to increase the sections up to 8. Sorry I tried to google a link or something so you have short term memory to go on.

what I´m trying to get at is that just because you get into Ivey doesn´t mean you will get an I-banking job. And also you should ask/consider how big your class is going to be when going in. That will play a huge part in getting you that nice paying job you want.

[adehbone]

i would say you have done some good research....now you should do the true research....what you really would like to do......all the professions will lead to good money...but all are extremely stressful and difficult....starting this week when you get back to school....aim for that 95avg....and apply everywhere....and look at which school you can do best in......being in the rite school for "yourself" could lead to making the right connections and friends...every recruiter and company could be there, but if you hate your program and environment :S

you may get into UW, but if you are sad and your spirit is destroyed after 1 yr.....the big4 dont look to hire ppl like that...i know ppl on Arts deans list (AFM is apart of arts) which is 83+ avgs....being rejected by big4s and even small firms in co-ops......

Also, I would disagree with the poster that getting into AFM is harder than Schudlich/Ivey/Queens....those schools look for more than marks....UW mainly takes anyone who has the marks....the Math/Biz program I would also not recommend unless you love math, and think you can get 85+ in gr12 algebra...the finance option may have some accouting or whatnot...but it rigous with actsci and stats and CS painful painful stuff

choose the school that is best for you personally....alot of the wealthy ppl in this world came from less known/reputable undergrad programs...where they excelled and did well afterwards

[CSR]

Don't rule out UTSC's Management Co-op if you want to explore your options in business.

[rey1867]

i would say you have done some good research....now you should do the true research....what you really would like to do......all the professions will lead to good money...but all are extremely stressful and difficult....starting this week when you get back to school....aim for that 95avg....and apply everywhere....and look at which school you can do best in......being in the rite school for "yourself" could lead to making the right connections and friends...every recruiter and company could be there, but if you hate your program and environment :S

you may get into UW, but if you are sad and your spirit is destroyed after 1 yr.....the big4 dont look to hire ppl like that...i know ppl on Arts deans list (AFM is apart of arts) which is 83+ avgs....being rejected by big4s and even small firms in co-ops......

Also, I would disagree with the poster that getting into AFM is harder than Schudlich/Ivey/Queens....those schools look for more than marks....UW mainly takes anyone who has the marks....the Math/Biz program I would also not recommend unless you love math, and think you can get 85+ in gr12 algebra...the finance option may have some accouting or whatnot...but it rigous with actsci and stats and CS painful painful stuff

choose the school that is best for you personally....alot of the wealthy ppl in this world came from less known/reputable undergrad programs...where they excelled and did well afterwards

i think for me I dont really care what the name of the university or program is. Im just a bit undecided as to what field in business I should go into. Accounting seems like an easy job after getting a CA but before that it looks like a lot of hard work. Investment banking looks like it pays you well for the hours you put in but I dont know if I will be able to keep up with the demanding hours. mannagement consulting is something I have no clue about.

From what I have heard, these are the three big "fields". Dont think I can go into marketing as Im not really creative and the other avenues in business seem less appealing to me for no other reason than lack of information.

[poorwingman]

Dont think I can go into marketing as Im not really creative and the other avenues in business seem less appealing to me for no other reason than lack of information.

marketing/sales are challenging fields to get started out in because the spread of really good jobs and really bad jobs is so wide.

but don't sell yourself short. at the risk of sounding cliche, going to uni is also about finding yourself.

you may become more creative as you spend more time exposing yourself to different things. it's part of growing up. just cuz you're almost done high school, don't think that you're done yet.

if you're not sure about what you want to do.. like what other RFDers said.. don't pigeon hole yourself into something just b/c it's the safe way out right now. it'd be better to leave your options open

[pirate]

for ivey do they look at extra-curiculars like shulich and queens or is only marks?

[poorwingman]

for ivey do they look at extra-curiculars like shulich and queens or is only marks?

ivey places a heavy emphasis on extra-curriculars. particularly leadership positions.