MMPA program at UTM

[LostCanadian]

Hi,

I graduated in Computer Engineering from U of W last year and now want to move towards finance/accounting fields. I want to hear your opinion about Master of Management and Accounting (MMPA) program at UTM.

What are the career prospects after graduating from this program? How are the classes like ? How hard is it to get into ?

Coming from Waterloo, one thing I am very concerned about is that I dont want to be stuck in a program with bunch of competitive ppl unwilling to cooperate or even talk. I mean my class at Waterloo was bascially divided along ethnic lines with ppl sticking to their groups and having absolutly no class spirit at all. How is MMPA with regards to that ?

I am also considering MBA. What do you guys think is better option? MMPA or MBA?

Any one has any thoughts on McMaster MBA program ?

thanks,

[codemonkey]

edited.

[charliebrown]

Hi,

I graduated in Computer Engineering from U of W last year and now want to move towards finance/accounting fields. I want to hear your opinion about Master of Management and Accounting (MMPA) program at UTM.

What are the career prospects after graduating from this program? How are the classes like ? How hard is it to get into ?

Coming from Waterloo, one thing I am very concerned about is that I dont want to be stuck in a program with bunch of competitive ppl unwilling to cooperate or even talk. I mean my class at Waterloo was bascially divided along ethnic lines with ppl sticking to their groups and having absolutly no class spirit at all. How is MMPA with regards to that ?

I am also considering MBA. What do you guys think is better option? MMPA or MBA?

Any one has any thoughts on McMaster MBA program ?

thanks,

Quite a drastic jump from comp eng to accounting; what are your career objectives?

From what i understand about MMPA program (based on what some of the students whom i've worked with), there's a co-op component and the program helps you meet the ICAO/CICA education requirements to write CA exam.

It could be a pretty long road (2-3 yrs?) to get to the CA entrance exam; then you have to meet the 30 month work experience requirement before you can add CA after your name.

Most big4 will hire coops from MMPA program; and because it is a masters program, you'll find that your peer group will be a bit older (i.e. around 30?) before you write the CA.

MBA could land you a job faster, but employers may de-value your MBA esp if the program lets you enter with minimal work experience.

Good luck!

[codemonkey]

yo seriously is that you man?

[watewate]

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't waste my time on the MMPA.

First off, you're probably too late to start the program this September. So you'll have to wait one year - 1 year wasted.

After you waste one year, you'd have to complete the MMPA program - another 2 years gone.

So in 3 years, you'll start work at a big-4 (after doing 2 co-op terms). I've yet to meet anyone from the MMPA program start off at a senior-level - i.e. you'll likely start at the junior-level like the fresh-undergrads - although a promotion is likely in one year given the 2 co-op terms (IF you were lucky enough to get hired onto a big-4 during your first co-op term). AFAIK, the placement rate, at least at the big-4s, didn't come off as too encouraging (strict hearsay - confirm on your own).

Regardless, you'll still have the UFE process, which should take up another year or so. Work experience at big-4 is no longer mandatory, so you won't be tied up at a big-4 for 30 months (assuming that you find a CICA-designated/approved industry company - which will be hard to find in the first few years), but you'll probably want to stay long enough to take advantage of the UFE training. That's another 2 years gone.

So in five years - possibly 6 if you decide to stay a little longer at the firm - you'd be free to practice in the industry. That, combined with the opportunity and tuition costs involved with going to school full-time for 2 years, and working at a big-4... let's just say that you're going to be cash-strapped for a long time.



If I were in your shoes, I'd try to beg your way into the acclerated CMA program and spend the next year meeting the eligibility requirements to write the entrance exam for next June. If all goes according to plan, you'd have your CMA in 3 years. I know, CMA is not as prestigious as CA, but CA is getting rid of their audit hour requirements for those starting work in 2008. Their curriculum is moving closer to CMA as of late, and will be even closer as they de-emphasize audit component during the next round of curriculum overhaul which will coincide with the abolishment of audit hour requirements.

CICA has always given some advanced-standing for CGAs and CMAs - i.e. they had to do SOA/UFE, but not the CKE. With audit hour requirement soon to be gone, getting CA through CMA/CGA should become less arduous - although it may take many years. I know that CICA will probably be pretty tight with the industry-trained CA requirements for the first few years, but I don't expect that to last. I wouldn't go to the CMA route banking on them relaxing the reciprocity standards, but I still think it's a possibility that will likely materialize in the medium-term.

So what does this all mean? You can either work now, and have 3 years of work experience under your belt with CMA - with the faint hope that you'd write CA later on as the entrance exam requirement is lowered over the next few years. You'd have a total of 5 years of industry-experience by the time you would possibly be out of a CA-firm. This puts you in the prime range to pursue MBA, should you choose to go that route. Alternatively, you can go complete the MMPA program and not break into the industry for another five years, but be guaranteed that you'd come away with a CA.

For undergrads, I think it makes to sense to do CA in most cases. Given your limited/non-existent accounting education, you'd have to weigh the costs and benefits of going through the MMPA before you decide.


If you were interested in the MBA, you'd be happy to know that CMA is basically an MBA... and it's all case-based. Heck, you'll find joint MBA-CMA programs at Queen's, Laurier and other schools...

[trusoulja2g]

You may be interested in this post from the accounting.com msg board:

If you are considering the Rotman MMPA program in order to get an inside track on good accounting jobs, be aware of the following:

- Typically, the good jobs (i.e. Big 4 and midsize firms like BDO Dunwoody and RSM Richter) go to students who fit a particular profile. This would be a native English speaker or equivalent (like an educated Indian) who is socially confortable in Canadian society. In terms of age, a recent graduate or someone with a few years experience (i.e. age between 22 and 30). If you fit this profile, the MMPA program would be a good choice for you. If you do not, getting a good job is quite a bit more challenging. Note that grades are basically not a factor.

- The program states they have 100% coop placement. This is correct, but again only half the jobs are good jobs that go to students who fit the profile. The rest get jobs at small accounting firms, sometimes for 2 to 2.5 months only during the busy tax season (mid Feb to April) - expect to work long hours doing personal tax returns for low wages. Some firms expect you to "volunteer" for half the workterm.

- A few students are unable to get jobs at CA firms and thus cannot become CAs - they instead do CPA, CMA, CGA or CFA.

The downside with making a switch to accounting, either through MMPA or MBA program, is that it's like starting over...you get no credit for your prior degree and start off at the same level as 22 yr old fresh grads. It's one thing to work the long hours at relatively low pay in your early 20's after only 4 years university...starting in your late 20's with another $20K in education is less palatable.

Assuming you have no prior accounting courses and no related work experience, I don't think there's much of a difference between pursuing the CA and CMA. i.e. it isn't much easier to get a CMA. Anyway, the education requirements are almost identical...only difference is where you get your work experience, which is a couple years down the road anyway.

In terms of where to get the education, you could either do MMPA or an MBA. Some MBA programs (like McMaster) allow you to get all of the required courses within the 2 yr program. But MMPA has co-op and probably better Big 4 recruiting chances. You can get the education anywhere...it's getting a position within a firm that's the harder part.

Re MBA vs accounting...obviously the type of work is a little different...MBA is usually either finance/marketing based. But in terms of career prospects, both require relevant work experience. Most successful MBA grads already have work experience before entering the program. MBA with no work experience is very hard to find a job...lots of those people around. With accounting, prior accounting experience isn't required but you do need to fit the profile of what the recruiters are looking for. And every accounting designation requires a period of approved work experience to get the designation.

[poorwingman]

If I were in your shoes, I wouldn't waste my time on the MMPA.

First off, you're probably too late to start the program this September. So you'll have to wait one year - 1 year wasted.

After you waste one year, you'd have to complete the MMPA program - another 2 years gone.

So in 3 years, you'll start work at a big-4 (after doing 2 co-op terms). I've yet to meet anyone from the MMPA program start off at a senior-level - i.e. you'll likely start at the junior-level like the fresh-undergrads - although a promotion is likely in one year given the 2 co-op terms (IF you were lucky enough to get hired onto a big-4 during your first co-op term). AFAIK, the placement rate, at least at the big-4s, didn't come off as too encouraging (strict hearsay - confirm on your own).

Regardless, you'll still have the UFE process, which should take up another year or so. Work experience at big-4 is no longer mandatory, so you won't be tied up at a big-4 for 30 months (assuming that you find a CICA-designated/approved industry company - which will be hard to find in the first few years), but you'll probably want to stay long enough to take advantage of the UFE training. That's another 2 years gone.





Get your facts straight.

MMPA has rolling admissions meaning they accept people all year round to start at the beginning of any point in the program (27/24/16 month program). However, the school year for people with no acc't background starts in May.

The UFE process is concurrent with MMPA students in their last year. Big firms will pay for training/exams even though you're a coop student and haven't started full time yet. So it doesn't take up an extra year.

If you sit out till May 2007, it will not be one year wasted in your career as long as you do something productve (i.e. find travel or other work). Who knows, your other work may be more lucrative and you won't go back to school.

The placement rate for MMPA students who do fit the profile (speak english properly and not totally weird) is very high (over 90%) at big firms.

MMPA program has 8 months of co-op experience so you have to work at a big firm for 22 more months to fill the experience requirement. When you graduate MMPA, you write the UFE ( you also have to write the CKE and SOA) and you return to work as an intermediate if you work at a big firm. The following year, you will be a senior and by the end of the summer you will have filled the experience requirement.

watewate --> why would you want to come back FT as senior? The senior position is the must understaffed position for a reason. The demands of the job are onerous and its overwhelming at times. I feel sorry for Waterloo Macc students who graduate and must senior for a year and a half before fulfilling their experience requirement. In fact, for a lot of them that time turns into 2 years because they feel guilty leaving in the middle of senioring their second busy season.

with all that said, MMPA program is another 50k + in debt and it is approx a 50 month commitment to accounting (including school and professional time). your starting salary at a big firm will probably be just over 50k. after taxes and loan repayment, you're not left with much. and it takes a long long time to pay back that much in debt. unless living at home with your parents is an option and is your cup of tea.

other RFDers are right in that your first degree will be worthless other than to be used as a conversation piece. your salary or work will not reflect that you have an eng degree as well. promotion/remuneration is based on experience and performance within the acc't industry.

some other things to consider regarding MMPA vs. MBA is that MBA jobs are typically much more exciting. If you do the MMPA (and if you work at a big 4 firm), you're forced into their pay structure and doing that type of work. imo, MBA jobs have more potential to do different types of work.

my overall suggestion is that you should see how far your eng degree can take you before you decided to go back to school. you'll also get more out of a MBA if you have some real work experience first.

Most big4 will hire coops from MMPA program; and because it is a masters program, you'll find that your peer group will be a bit older (i.e. around 30?) before you write the CA.
the average student in MMPA just finished undergrad or is a year removed from undergrad. so they are not close to 30 at all.

Coming from Waterloo, one thing I am very concerned about is that I dont want to be stuck in a program with bunch of competitive ppl unwilling to cooperate or even talk. I mean my class at Waterloo was bascially divided along ethnic lines with ppl sticking to their groups and having absolutly no class spirit at all. How is MMPA with regards to that ?
it varies from year to year. there isn't any way for RFDers to predict what the culture will be in a future crop of MMPA students. if you're really interested, call the program. i'm sure they'd let you sit in on a class so you can see what it's like.

[charliebrown]

watewate --> why would you want to come back FT as senior? The senior position is the must understaffed position for a reason. The demands of the job are onerous and its overwhelming at times. I feel sorry for Waterloo Macc students who graduate and must senior for a year and a half before fulfilling their experience requirement. In fact, for a lot of them that time turns into 2 years because they feel guilty leaving in the middle of senioring their second busy season.



Well, by coming back as a senior, it means one is closer to promotion to manager when one finishes the 30 month requirement. I know most MAcc ppl will get their designation in spring of one yr, and because the firms count all the co-op experience, then make manager in Sept/Oct the same yr (assuming you have decent performance evals).

There are some ppl that thrive in the big4 setting -- they are able to manage the stress/time requirements during busy season, and they just cruise through summer with golf days, training, campus recruiting, etc.




the average student in MMPA just finished undergrad or is a year removed from undergrad. so they are not close to 30 at all.


sorry, i meant the ppl i've worked with -- i guess by the time co-op rolls around and with the workload...made me think some of the ppl were closer to 30 than 24.


Back to the OP's question,

I think MMPA is more for ppl that have a background in finance/accounting during undergrad...not completely sure of their admission requirements; if you're sure about getting a CA, may be worthwhile to investigate which credits you need to enter the MMPA program.

[poorwingman]

Well, by coming back as a senior, it means one is closer to promotion to manager when one finishes the 30 month requirement. I know most MAcc ppl will get their designation in spring of one yr, and because the firms count all the co-op experience, then make manager in Sept/Oct the same yr (assuming you have decent performance evals).

There are some ppl that thrive in the big4 setting -- they are able to manage the stress/time requirements during busy season, and they just cruise through summer with golf days, training, campus recruiting, etc.



not everyone wants to be an audit manager.

with respect to stress/time requirements, it also really depends what industries you specialize in. there is no downtime for financial services. it seems like they are busy all year round.

[jazzyc4t]

Here is a real, unbiased answer...

The MMPA is a graduate accounting degree which aims to provide all the necessary 51-credit hours required by the ICAO to qualify for the CA designation. Its meant for anyone who did not complete the 51-credit hours in their undergrad. This means you'll find Arts/Science/Commerce and Engineering students in the program.

Some advantages of the program is that it allows you complete the 51-credit requirement and gain some Co-op experience in 2 years of fulltime study. Also, graduates of the program are exempt from the CKE and can register for the SOA immediately upon completion of the program.

As for recruiting, you will have the opportunity to interview with all the Big4 and mid-sized firms, and whether you get a job or not really depends on you and not the program.

Most MMPAs will start as Sr. Associates, if they end up at the same shop as their co-op placement. If not, more commonly they end up as Associates.

As for MMPA v. MBA, it depends on your career goals, if you want to be a CA, go the MMPA route, if you are interested in general managment then MBA is a better fit.

[poorwingman]

Here is a real, unbiased answer...

....

Some advantages of the program is that it allows you complete the 51-credit requirement and gain some Co-op experience in 2 years of fulltime study. Also, graduates of the program are exempt from the CKE and can register for the SOA immediately upon completion of the program.

As for recruiting, you will have the opportunity to interview with all the Big4 and mid-sized firms, and whether you get a job or not really depends on you and not the program.

Most MMPAs will start as Sr. Associates, if they end up at the same shop as their co-op placement. If not, more commonly they end up as Associates.



above is a real, incorrect answer. some of the significant claims in the above post are false. just wrong.

first, MMPA students are NOT exempt from the CKE and SOA. Only UW Macc students are exempt from these two exams. Even UW Acc't Diploma students must write the CKE and SOA.

Enrolment in the MMPA program does not automatically guarantee interviews at all big 4 firms. In fact, it is unlikely to interview at all 4. Although they seek a specific profile, most candidates only interview at 3 of the 4 big firms. A prospect cannot take this process for granted and will still have to attend as many recruiting events as possible.

In fact, most MMPA grads do not start as seniors. that is ridiculous. MMPA grads have 2 co-op terms which is not sufficient experience to senior. As I mentioned in an earlier post, MMPA grads start FT as an intermediate (AKA experienced associate). After 1 year as an intermediate, you will be a senior. All this despite staying at the same "shop". Like UW students, most MMPA students stay at the same "shop" through co-op and gain full time employment there.

[jazzyc4t]

above is a real, incorrect answer. some of the significant claims in the above post are false. just wrong.

first, MMPA students are NOT exempt from the CKE and SOA. Only UW Macc students are exempt from these two exams. Even UW Acc't Diploma students must write the CKE and SOA.

Enrolment in the MMPA program does not automatically guarantee interviews at all big 4 firms. In fact, it is unlikely to interview at all 4. Although they seek a specific profile, most candidates only interview at 3 of the 4 big firms. A prospect cannot take this process for granted and will still have to attend as many recruiting events as possible.

In fact, most MMPA grads do not start as seniors. that is ridiculous. MMPA grads have 2 co-op terms which is not sufficient experience to senior. As I mentioned in an earlier post, MMPA grads start FT as an intermediate (AKA experienced associate). After 1 year as an intermediate, you will be a senior. All this despite staying at the same "shop". Like UW students, most MMPA students stay at the same "shop" through co-op and gain full time employment there.

http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/mmpa/MMPA-Program_Professional_Designations.htm

How many people do you know that have went through the program? I know 5... All five of them went on to senior associate positions after graduating.

[jazzyc4t]

above is a real, incorrect answer. some of the significant claims in the above post are false. just wrong.

first, MMPA students are NOT exempt from the CKE and SOA. Only UW Macc students are exempt from these two exams. Even UW Acc't Diploma students must write the CKE and SOA.

Please read my posts before flamming.

Enrolment in the MMPA program does not automatically guarantee interviews at all big 4 firms. In fact, it is unlikely to interview at all 4. Although they seek a specific profile, most candidates only interview at 3 of the 4 big firms. A prospect cannot take this process for granted and will still have to attend as many recruiting events as possible.

I never stated anything about interviews... I only referred to the fact that these firms recruit (accept applications) MMPA students.

[poorwingman]

http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/mmpa/MMPA-Program_Professional_Designations.htm

How many people do you know that have went through the program? I know 5... All five of them went on to senior associate positions after graduating.

i know 100!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i'm a mmpa grad. there actually are several of us on rfd.

the only ppl that started as seniors when they started FT had prior audit experience.

2 co-op terms is not sufficient experience start as a senior. anyone at a big 4 firm can attest to that. UTSc undergrad co-ops have 3 co-op terms and return as intermediates. only UW co-ops return full time as seniors and they have 4 co-op terms of experience.

Please read my posts before flamming.



I never stated anything about interviews... I only referred to the fact that these firms recruit (accept applications) MMPA students.

Also, graduates of the program are exempt from the CKE and can register for the SOA immediately upon completion of the program.
.......As for recruiting, you will have the opportunity to interview with all the Big4 and mid-sized firms

i did read your post. call it flaming or whatever you want but your post is wrong. my classmates and i pursuing the CA designation had to write the CKE and SOA.

further, everyone isn't given the opportunity to interview as you stated. in actual fact, everyone has the opportunity to apply and any given year big4 firms interview 15-20 people.

[LostCanadian]

If you sit out till May 2007, it will not be one year wasted in your career as long as you do something productve (i.e. find travel or other work). Who knows, your other work may be more lucrative and you won't go back to school.

The placement rate for MMPA students who do fit the profile (speak english properly and not totally weird) is very high (over 90%) at big firms.

MMPA program has 8 months of co-op experience so you have to work at a big firm for 22 more months to fill the experience requirement. When you graduate MMPA, you write the UFE ( you also have to write the CKE and SOA) and you return to work as an intermediate if you work at a big firm. The following year, you will be a senior and by the end of the summer you will have filled the experience requirement.

watewate --> why would you want to come back FT as senior? The senior position is the must understaffed position for a reason. The demands of the job are onerous and its overwhelming at times. I feel sorry for Waterloo Macc students who graduate and must senior for a year and a half before fulfilling their experience requirement. In fact, for a lot of them that time turns into 2 years because they feel guilty leaving in the middle of senioring their second busy season.

with all that said, MMPA program is another 50k + in debt and it is approx a 50 month commitment to accounting (including school and professional time). your starting salary at a big firm will probably be just over 50k. after taxes and loan repayment, you're not left with much. and it takes a long long time to pay back that much in debt. unless living at home with your parents is an option and is your cup of tea.

other RFDers are right in that your first degree will be worthless other than to be used as a conversation piece. your salary or work will not reflect that you have an eng degree as well. promotion/remuneration is based on experience and performance within the acc't industry.




Thanks a lot for the info. I currently have a job doing ******** work for a bank's IT department. The problem is that i hate programming and want either to become a Business Analyst or move towards accounting / finance/ consulting... basically anything that can get me an exit door out of IT.

The reason i was thinking accounting over MBA was that unlike MBA, MMPA prepares you specifically for a job... so kinda hope that you will easilly find a job after accounting. MBA on the other hand doesnt specifically lead you towards a certain profession. Its same as the difference between doing bacherlor in Math vs. Engineering. Engineering gets you specific job whereas Math gives you general quantitiave knowledge.... do you think this evaluation is correct.

Given that you graduated from MMPA, would you do it again if given the chance? Did you enjoy the class atmosphere ? The 50K salary you mentioned, is it after 50 months or is it right after graduation ? One guy at UTM was telling me that some grads out of MMPA get salaries like 35k after graduation. I didnt believe him, but whats your opinion about that?

Another reason why MMPA seems a bit more attractive to me is that it has management courses, including i think one or two finance courses. So hopefully it can open way for getting a job in consulting / finance field... or am i mistaken ?

[neo_geo]

Here is a real, unbiased answer...

The MMPA is a graduate accounting degree which aims to provide all the necessary 51-credit hours required by the ICAO to qualify for the CA designation. Its meant for anyone who did not complete the 51-credit hours in their undergrad. This means you'll find Arts/Science/Commerce and Engineering students in the program.

Some advantages of the program is that it allows you complete the 51-credit requirement and gain some Co-op experience in 2 years of fulltime study. Also, graduates of the program are exempt from the CKE and can register for the SOA immediately upon completion of the program.

As for recruiting, you will have the opportunity to interview with all the Big4 and mid-sized firms, and whether you get a job or not really depends on you and not the program.

Most MMPAs will start as Sr. Associates, if they end up at the same shop as their co-op placement. If not, more commonly they end up as Associates.

As for MMPA v. MBA, it depends on your career goals, if you want to be a CA, go the MMPA route, if you are interested in general managment then MBA is a better fit.

This is my experience from the program:

You won't get interviews with all the Big4 and mid-sized firms. If you meet the criteria of not being wierd and speak good english then you should get an interview with at least one firm.

I only know of one person that started as a Sr. Associate after MMPA and they had previous audit experience, otherwise you would start as an intermediate associate.


So in five years - possibly 6 if you decide to stay a little longer at the firm - you'd be free to practice in the industry. That, combined with the opportunity and tuition costs involved with going to school full-time for 2 years, and working at a big-4... let's just say that you're going to be cash-strapped for a long time.
.

You can get advanced standing in the MMPA program and start in September. It would take you about 4 years and a bit to get your CA from 2 years in school with Co-op placements and the 22 months of required experience, thus it would not take you that long to get into industry as suggested. The co-op placements help out with paying tuition and I wouldn't say you are cash strapped for a long time.

When it comes to an MBA vs MMPA. It really depends on you. If you want your CA, then the MMPA is a good route. As a CA, you won't necessarily be in public accounting but you will have to start there right now.

Given that you graduated from MMPA, would you do it again if given the chance? Did you enjoy the class atmosphere ? The 50K salary you mentioned, is it after 50 months or is it right after graduation ? One guy at UTM was telling me that some grads out of MMPA get salaries like 35k after graduation. I didnt believe him, but whats your opinion about that?

Another reason why MMPA seems a bit more attractive to me is that it has management courses, including i think one or two finance courses. So hopefully it can open way for getting a job in consulting / finance field... or am i mistaken ?.

I would do it again because I got a job at a big4 firm, otherwise I would have dropped out. The class atmosphere was ok, there was a divide in the class between native and non native english speakers. I received a 50K salary right after graduation but at a big4 firm, it would possibly be less at smaller firms.

If you want a job in consulting or finance, the MMPA program is not for you. You would be better off with an MBA because the MMPA is geared towards the CA and public accounting firms.

[aZnRYcEbOi]

Thanks a lot for the info. I currently have a job doing ******** work for a bank's IT department. The problem is that i hate programming and want either to become a Business Analyst or move towards accounting / finance/ consulting... basically anything that can get me an exit door out of IT.

The reason i was thinking accounting over MBA was that unlike MBA, MMPA prepares you specifically for a job... so kinda hope that you will easilly find a job after accounting. MBA on the other hand doesnt specifically lead you towards a certain profession. Its same as the difference between doing bacherlor in Math vs. Engineering. Engineering gets you specific job whereas Math gives you general quantitiave knowledge.... do you think this evaluation is correct.

Given that you graduated from MMPA, would you do it again if given the chance? Did you enjoy the class atmosphere ? The 50K salary you mentioned, is it after 50 months or is it right after graduation ? One guy at UTM was telling me that some grads out of MMPA get salaries like 35k after graduation. I didnt believe him, but whats your opinion about that?

Another reason why MMPA seems a bit more attractive to me is that it has management courses, including i think one or two finance courses. So hopefully it can open way for getting a job in consulting / finance field... or am i mistaken ?


You sound like me, 3 years ago. I'll share my experience with you, and hopefully give you some more food for thought.

Background

Back in 2003, I graduated from U of T Comp Eng at a bad time, just after the tech bust. I worked in software development for a major canadian bank, and I had expressed interest in shifting towards a business analyst role, because I also hated programming. Well, I didn't hate it, because it was easy, the hours were great, no OT, worked at my own pace, etc. But I didn't like the career path I was following, since it took my managers almost 10 years before they reached a project or department manager position. About 15-20 yrs to be VP (and it seemed like everyone was a VP of some sort, even within the IT group!). At the same time, you were at risk of being outsourced, had to deal with the shift towards contractors, and also compete against fresh grads every year with up to date technical knowledge. Anyways, although I had networked across all the different departments for a business role, the limiting factor was that I had no business experience or background, so the transition towards any sort of business related role would require either experience, or more education. I decided to go for more education.

My options in graduate studies were doing a Masters in Comp Eng, MBA, or MMPA. Masters in Comp Eng was like digging the hole even deeper, since I did not have the desire to stay so technical within engineering. So I was left with MBA or MMPA.

MBA VS MMPA

My ultimate decision was fueled by my long term goals. Deep down, my career objective is to eventually run my own business, or be in a senior management position at a tech firm. I find that many engineers share similar aspirations. But unless you have the entrepreneurial spirit, or a flash of brilliance like Bill Gates, it is extremely difficult to enter the business side of things without either years of experience, or some sort of business background. You definitely need one or the other, in order to establish credibility.

At that point in time, I didn't have the relevant work experience to make an MBA worthwhile, or to maximize the MBA experience, since I was not even in a management role yet. I didn’t want to do it just to get the 3 letters, because at the end of the day, I didn’t know how useful it was towards my objectives. Also, a lot of people already held the Engineering & MBA combo, and their results were across the board. If at that point I already had some management experience, I probably would’ve chose the MBA route.

With my objectives in mind, I decided that pursuing the CA & MMPA was a better fit for me. Here are some pros & cons of going through the CA/MMPA process and doing auditing:

Pros

- gain exposure to different industries and companies of all sizes, to learn about how the money flows, how they financially operate their lines of business, how their internal controls work, how to improve upon existing measures
- have the opportunity to deal with senior management & staff of those companies, and also with different audit teams for each engagement, which is great for building your network
- see the cultures at different companies. This is a critical advantage when selecting a future employer. You really get to see the difference from one company to the next
- pick up an entirely different skill set, which is heavily in demand, and it was an easy transition since engineers are good with numbers already. Also, engineers are already accustomed to the heavy school workload, so it’s not as much of a shock, versus arts students that come into this program.
- after 4 years in a big 4 firm (3 yrs after graduating MMPA), reach Manager level and gain management experience - this is both a pro and con, and as poorwingman noted, it definitely sucks the life out of you to have the burdens of Senior Associate or Manager positions.
- The program gives you a lot of preparation before sending you out to the recruiters. In the first semester, there are sessions/lectures on how to write your resume and how to present yourself at business functions. Although some students ignored it or it was just a reminder for other students, it was very useful for many students to learn how to present themselves in the best manner possible in paper and in person.

Cons

- long hours (especially during Jan - April), with no OT pay
- time commitment, 30 months of work experience is a long time to get the CA designation. Including the time spent in MMPA, it works out to about 50 month commitment until you fully qualify as a CA.
- going through the CKE/SOA/UFE process is a life changing experience. if you thought delta-epsilon proofs were hard in engineering, case writing is a whole new can of worms.
- doing audit grunt work during at least your first year at a big-4 firm, stupid stuff like confirmations, downadding, ticking & tying - but you have to start somewhere, right?

This route is definitely not for everyone, but given my career objective, this seemed to be a logical choice. If I did the MBA instead, I didn't see as many opportunities to learn different businesses, or to network directly with senior management of different companies. Keep in mind that I am not discounting the MBA at all, and I believe that in the future, I may still obtain those 3 letters, just to round out myself on paper.

Leaving engineering and starting over?

Someone mentioned above that you would have to basically start over fresh in accounting. While that is true, it is also a short sighted evaluation for this career switch. Don't think of it as ditching your engineering background. You need to look at it in terms of a 5-year, or 10-year plan, and see what kind of paths the engineering & CA duo in combination can take you. The thing with CA is that you're not confined to accounting for the rest of your life, and contrary to popular belief, CA's do not just crunch numbers. Once you get your CA, then there are tons of opportunities available to you – many people end up leaving public practice to work in various business roles in other firms. Do a search on RFD, and you'll see that the whole CA debate has already been discussed thoroughly.

Would I do the MMPA again?

Yes, because of the transition from engineering towards business & CA. Also as neo_geo mentioned, because I got a job at a big 4. Starting salary upon graduation of the MMPA at a big 4 is low to mid 50k, and since accounting firms promote you to a new role every year, you can expect annual 9k-10k increases (along with all the increased responsibilities and assuming your performance level remains consistant at whatever bucket you land in). Salary at the co-op level ranges from low to high 40k. Salaries at mid sized firms (Richter/BDO/GrantThornton) are competitive. Salaries at small firms depend on the type of work they do. Firms that do audit may pay more competitively than firms that do tax returns. This may be to retain staff who can try to leave for big firms as soon as they successfully write the UFE.

My recommendation to you

You need to step back, and really think of what you wnat to do in the future. Where does your passion lie? What do you think you will enjoy doing? Then work backwards and think of what kind of paths can take you there. Talk to people in that industry or field, and gain insight towards their career path and recommendations. See what options make sense for you and weigh it in terms of time commitment, cost/benefit, and attainability.

[aZnRYcEbOi]

http://www.rotman.utoronto.ca/mmpa/MMPA-Program_Professional_Designations.htm

How many people do you know that have went through the program? I know 5... All five of them went on to senior associate positions after graduating.

Which firms were they at? What year did they graduate the MMPA? What experience did they have prior to joining the MMPA? Please reply and validate your claim. Better yet, get them to post in here.

I only know of 1 person that was slotted directly into a Senior role, and that was because prior to the MMPA, he was an audit manager at a big 4 office in Asia. For all the other MMPA students, or accounting students in general, 2 co-op terms is not enough experience to slide into the senior role.


In addition, MMPA students are NOT exempt from the CKE. The link you posted to the MMPA website alludes to the fact that although they have not technically completed their MMPA degree in the final year, the ICAO acknowledges that the 51-course requirement has been met after the 5th term, and MMPA students are eligible to write CKE & SOA during their final year, despite not officially completing the program yet.

[charliebrown]

Lots of good discussion about MBA vs MMPA, thought I could add in an idea.

Back when I was at a Big4 firm, risk services was a growing area (still is). I recall there were a couple (2-3) of ppl in the group who didnt have accounting/audit backgrounds. They were engineers or business undergrads, and they worked on projects that could be loosely called process re-engineering/internal audit/operational audit.

I think with the OP's engineering background, he/she has the technical skills, as well as an analytical mindset? Perhaps OP can try applying for junior level jobs with consulting firms or the risk services groups within Big4.

Some of the work will probably be SOX related, but with the consulting firms, it may be more varied AND you get the same pros/cons of working in a non-traditional accounting firm environment (and perhaps work on the MBA part-time? or reassess if u really want the CA)

edit: forgot to mention. Lets say u do get into a risk services group, consider looking at doing the CIA via www.theiia.org to add some credibility. Sad to say, with the demand for ppl, some places look for ppl with ANY designations such as CA, CMA, CGA, CPA, CIA -- even though the requirements for CIA are much more relaxed

[poorwingman]

Lots of good discussion about MBA vs MMPA, thought I could add in an idea.

Back when I was at a Big4 firm, risk services was a growing area (still is). I recall there were a couple (2-3) of ppl in the group who didnt have accounting/audit backgrounds. They were engineers or business undergrads, and they worked on projects that could be loosely called process re-engineering/internal audit/operational audit.

I think with the OP's engineering background, he/she has the technical skills, as well as an analytical mindset? Perhaps OP can try applying for junior level jobs with consulting firms or the risk services groups within Big4.

Some of the work will probably be SOX related, but with the consulting firms, it may be more varied AND you get the same pros/cons of working in a non-traditional accounting firm environment (and perhaps work on the MBA part-time? or reassess if u really want the CA)

i think this is a great alternative especially since it doesn't require the time and financial investment of going back to school. switching to consulting will elminiate the monotony from your current job and provide different challenges. also, depending on the size of your employer, you may have the opportunity to work with many different people. this mixes it up a bit so you're not stuck with the same co-workers all the time.

however, imo it is not a long term solution to get into finance. it all depends on what the OP wants.

[LostCanadian]

Thanks for the info guys. I really appreciate that. For me the decision has now came down to choosing CMA through MBA vs. MMPA. And considering that CMA involves less hassle, i think i will give that some serious thought.

[neo_geo]

Thanks for the info guys. I really appreciate that. For me the decision has now came down to choosing CMA through MBA vs. MMPA. And considering that CMA involves less hassle, i think i will give that some serious thought.

I think should consider why you want a CMA vs CA. If its just because its a less of a hassle then maybe you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

I am biased to the CA because I am working towards it but if you are looking at the designation from a hassle point of view, keep in mind that because the CA is harder to get, your designation will be that much more valuable since it will set you apart and there is significant demand for CA (However, these reasons can be debated)

Another factor to consider is that CMA and CA work is different. A CA might work at big4 firm initially, put in lots of hours but you also get a variety of projects to work on and work with different people. You will get to learn about many work environments and processes of different companies. This allows you to decide what type of place you would want to work at if you left for industry. As a CMA, you might be working internally for a company making internal business decisions and preparing financial statements for CAs. I'm not saying CMAs are less than CAs but they do different work which is good or bad depending on what you want to do. Also, if you don't like the company, you are stuck there.

That being said, this also relates to the MMPA program. If you want your CMA, dont bother taking the MMPA program. The MMPA is geared towards the CA. The big4 and medium size firms recruit from the program and very little from industry. Thus, the coop placements would not be that useful. Almost all the people who do the MMPA work towards their CA as well. If you are more interested in consulting and finance, then an MBA with a CMA seems like a better choice.

[poorwingman]

Another thing to note about MMPA is that the course selection is limited. MMPA students only have the 1 elective and that's a choice between 2 different courses.

If there's an area in business that you'd like to study further such as marketing or operations, you will not be able to do so through MMPA easily. If you want to continue studying in these fields it may be possible to speak to MMPA administrators and ask to take Rotman MBA courses in these fields for your interest. Whether it will cost you more money amd whether it can substitute for a MMPA course is another matter. Keep in mind though that although it may be possible, this suggestion is not realistic because it would not be easy to take classes at both campuses. Coordinating your time to attend the classes and the workload may not make it worthwhile.

My suggestion to anyone interested in the MMPA program is to examine the curriculum. If you're interested in becoming a CA, the MMPA program will definitely help. If you're interested in pursuing other aspects of a MBA degree, the MMPA program might not be for you.

[chickenbones]

Sorry I know this thread is like a month old, but someone mentioned MBA with CMA.

What's a good program for that? WLU has a combined part time program with MBA + CMA but it takes like 3 and half years to complete, which is kind of long. Any comments?

[poorwingman]

Sorry I know this thread is like a month old, but someone mentioned MBA with CMA.

What's a good program for that? WLU has a combined part time program with MBA + CMA but it takes like 3 and half years to complete, which is kind of long. Any comments?

don't judge a program based on it's length. do some research to figure out if the program is long because it has co-op or if you get some exemptions to get your CMA designation faster. the total period to get your mba + cma might not actually be that much longer than if you did them one after the other.

[chickenbones]

don't judge a program based on it's length. do some research to figure out if the program is long because it has co-op or if you get some exemptions to get your CMA designation faster. the total period to get your mba + cma might not actually be that much longer than if you did them one after the other.

That's true, but I'm wondering if there are any other programs offering the same combo? I'm also wondering if WLU is a good place to get an MBA.

[poorwingman]

That's true, but I'm wondering if there are any other programs offering the same combo? I'm also wondering if WLU is a good place to get an MBA.

The MMPA program doesn't offer a combo but i believe there are some exemptions for MMPA graduates seeking the CMA designation.

However, the high cost (20k per year for tuition alone) may deter you. Also, most of the co-op placement support is geared to CA firms and not industry firms.