Unjust termination

[neospice]

My gf recently got laid off from her job and wasn't given much reason as to why. It was also a sudden thing where she had to pack up her stuff and leave in the middle of the day. She was given 2 weeks extra pay and vacation I guess as the severance. She asked if she could use them as a reference, and they said unfortunately no. Are employers obligated to give them? I think she qualifies for EI, so maybe she can get that... what else should she do.

Some background: its a decently sized law firm, well when I say decent its owned by a man and his wife, maybe about 40 employees - 10 lawyers, rest assistance staff. She has been working there for about 6 months now, her probationary period was after 3 months when everything was going good. She's in charge of assisting the lawyers, electronically filing the documents and mostly paperwork... she's currently in school for a legal clerk part time, working full time. When asked why she was fired, all they said was something to the effect of "we feel that you could have been more productive" and that the firm is "expanding" and we are looking for someone with a specific skill set. In the same day another girl who was working for 2 years also got let go. My gf thinks its maybe cause she was emailing a lot, friends and me. I somehow doubt it. I told her its very unusual for a place to let go of someone out of the blue without giving them a reference and VERY unprofesional, so I'm thinking she must have pissed someone off but she says no. The person she was assisting was also surprised so it seems like a spur of the moment thing. Anyways, just trying to find out why someone might do this so suddenly and rudely and what course of action there is.

[sunnybono]

I would try to contact the person that she was working for (the one that was surprised) to get some more info. From there you can determine whether you need to contact a good labour lawyer or not.

sk

[poorwingman]

i'm not saying they're perfect. but presumably, a law firm would know what actions would be within its rights or not

[brute33]

just to clarify

being laid off is when a company no longer can keep you and has no more work for you.

being fired is when the company is not happy with you for one reason or another.

You mentioned both...which is it?

If the company was not satisfied with her work then they are justified in firing her. I'm not saying this to be mean but people do not "own" their jobs/careers. It's a privileage to be employed not your right.

ps. i also know someone that lost their job because of lots of email. As a result I rarely email friends and family at their work because i don't want it on my consience that I may have been a small part in someone losing their job.

[brute33]

if she has evaluations saying she did good work then you might have a case.

[rc51]

Companies are in no way obligated to give a reference, I think if they do it's based on professional courtesy. My last company had a policy of specifically NOT providing references on a company level. And think about it, if a company is firing a person, why would you want a reference from them.

As for 'being more productive', it would be hard to prove that she was productive to their standards, and there's possibly other reasons too that maybe they didn't share.

Your post seems to be slanted that its the company's fault...and no fault of your GF..I'm not saying that she is at fault but maybe she's just not up to their standard. Once again, hard to prove.

Put yourself in their shoes, if you had an employee who you think wasn't performing as well as someone with that skillset or experience should, what would you do?

[tvp2003]

Assuming she isn't part of a union (as a legal assistant, probably not), the employer can terminate her employment at any time, so long as they give reasonable notice (here, they gave 2 weeks pay in lieu of notice, which for 6 months is probably sufficient). They don't even have to give you a reason; the key is getting reasonable notice, which was given.

[anitanium]

it's possible that they're just short of money?

[BuildBuyBreed]

Can do much about it if it's a layoff... you get compensation and can collect EI and (depending on the company) can return once there is work available again.

If she was fired, then they have to give cause and reason.

And as POORWINGMAN said, if it's a law firm, it's highly likely they know what they're doing and thus cover their asses very well.

Companies do not have to give a reference if they don't want to... and they can't give negative references either way.

[TotallyKiller]

If she has a documented job description then it might be easier to see if she was living up to their expectations. If not, then it's easy for them to say she wasn't performing.

[ullyeus]

I'd call is a lesson learned.

I would also tell your girlfriend to stop fooling around at work (e-mailing, etc) and to try to pay more attention to her surroundings.

and the reference thing...why do you and her both think it would be a good idea to get a reference from a company that fired her (or laid her off) due to performance issues?

[neospice]

It's not about getting let go that is the real issue, but rather the method with which they did it. I've worked with several big companies and I know it is in very poor taste for a company to just let someone go without giving them just reason and allowing them to use a reference. Its very important to have that reference, because a prospective employer will ask about your last employer and why they can't contact the supervisor. The least the company could have done was to give a more detailed reason - sure maybe by law they don't have to - but I know if i was fired I would like to know the exact reason so I could make sure I don't do it in the future. The way they did it was rather unprofessional. If she wasn't performing, then where was the warnings or criticisms? She got good feedback from the lawyers, so I doubt it was that. She did get one warning one time for coming in late (due to traffic) about 2 months ago, thats all she could think about.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand if an employer has to get rid of an employee... for whatever reason. But state that reason, clearly.

[neospice]

I'd call is a lesson learned.

I would also tell your girlfriend to stop fooling around at work (e-mailing, etc) and to try to pay more attention to her surroundings.

and the reference thing...why do you and her both think it would be a good idea to get a reference from a company that fired her (or laid her off) due to performance issues?

Its not about performance issues... she performed well, and got praised for doing so. Its about not being given the chance to improve, or being told about what went wrong that is the issue. If she applies and can't have a reference then there will be a gap in her previous employment and it will look bad. Now if she comes to work every day, does good work and then gets fired, thats not right. If the work was poor, then they need to clearly state howso.

[xwar]

Sorry, but this type of thing happens all the time. Just get her to move on and find something better. Good luck.

[boneca]

I would suggest that she call the Labour Standards office in your area....they would know best....IMO what they did isn't fair and if they already hired someone to replace her she may be able to fight back. What they did is illegal in my workplace.

[ullyeus]

Its not about performance issues... she performed well, and got praised for doing so. Its about not being given the chance to improve, or being told about what went wrong that is the issue. If she applies and can't have a reference then there will be a gap in her previous employment and it will look bad. Now if she comes to work every day, does good work and then gets fired, thats not right. If the work was poor, then they need to clearly state howso.


What does something to the effect of "we feel that you could have been more productive" mean to you? Seems to me it means there was a performance issue.

[rdtx2002]

It's not about getting let go that is the real issue, but rather the method with which they did it. I've worked with several big companies and I know it is in very poor taste for a company to just let someone go without giving them just reason and allowing them to use a reference. Its very important to have that reference, because a prospective employer will ask about your last employer and why they can't contact the supervisor. The least the company could have done was to give a more detailed reason - sure maybe by law they don't have to - but I know if i was fired I would like to know the exact reason so I could make sure I don't do it in the future. The way they did it was rather unprofessional. If she wasn't performing, then where was the warnings or criticisms? She got good feedback from the lawyers, so I doubt it was that. She did get one warning one time for coming in late (due to traffic) about 2 months ago, thats all she could think about.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand if an employer has to get rid of an employee... for whatever reason. But state that reason, clearly.

it's not in poor taste.. the company basically let her go and she is lucky to even get a severence package. Reminds me of a guy at work i know.. was FT on the job for 3 months.. past probation, then suddenly was asked to go home and gave him a severence package to boot. tough luck.. good luck finding the next job.

not all organizations have to supply you a reference. (as shady as references can be sometimes)

and a company doesn't have to tell you the exact reason they are firing you.. they can easily say that she is not meeting the expections they set.. and bam.. you are fired.

[Octavius]

By law, your girlfriend is required to get at least a record of her employment with that employer. On that form, she will see if she was "laid off", "dismissed" (aka fired), "quit", or any number of other reasons for no longer being a part of that organization.

It is true that no employer is required to give her a reference, but they MUST supply her with that form. Typically on that form there will be some sort of contact number that she can call if she has any further questions regarding the application or her dismissal.

The purpose of the ROE is for EI. This form will either allow her to claim EI (if she was laid off, or lost her job due to no fault of her own) or it will disallow her (if it says dismissed, she won't be eligible). This is about as much as they are required by law to give someone who is no longer employed with them. If the employer does not send it to her, she can call up (I believe it's Service Canada) and request her ROE for that job.

If she has been there 6 months, she is entitled to no such severance package upon termination of her employment. The ONLY thing she is entitled to is her notice (or pay in lieu of notice which is what she received) and her vacation pay that has been accrued up until the date of her dismissal. If she got anything else, count it as a blessing but from what I can tell from your original post that is all that she got anyway.

If she is still looking for a reference, what I would do in a circumstance like that (and I was in that exact same circumstance about a year ago) is talk to a supervisor or someone who she was very close to who worked with her and liked her work. Get their personal information and use them as a reference when applying for jobs. This way, although she doesn't have an "official" reference from the company, she has a reference for the time she was there for from someone who was in a position of authority and can vouch for her being a good employee who works hard.

Other then that, my suggestion is to print out 200 resumes, hand them out like mad wherever you are and attack monster.ca with as much time as she can afford. The sooner she is up back on her feet, the sooner she can move on. If any employer asks her why there is a gap on her resume, make something up...like she had to take a leave of absense for personal reasons, to take care of a sick relative or whatever. Or say that it was time to move on or there was some housecleaning at her old place of business. They're less likely to probe for more questions with those responses.

I wish her the best of luck

it's not in poor taste.. the company basically let her go and she is lucky to even get a severence package. Reminds me of a guy at work i know.. was FT on the job for 3 months.. past probation, then suddenly was asked to go home and gave him a severence package to boot. tough luck.. good luck finding the next job.

not all organizations have to supply you a reference. (as shady as references can be sometimes)

and a company doesn't have to tell you the exact reason they are firing you.. they can easily say that she is not meeting the expections they set.. and bam.. you are fired.

[Pete Jones]

If she was fired, then they have to give cause and reason.

And how do you arrive at that conclusion?

According to the ntario Employment standars act
http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/factsheets/fs_termination.html

In most cases, an employer can terminate an employee's job at any time, but employers must provide proper written notice, or termination pay instead of notice.

Companies do not have to give a reference if they don't want to... and they can't give negative references either way.

Companies don't have to give references. That is true. But there is no law that states that a reference has to be a positive one. As to whether it's in a companies best interest to issue a negative reference, that's a whole different issue, along with the validity of references to begin with.

--Peter

[BuildBuyBreed]

According to the ntario Employment standars act
http://www.labour.gov.on.ca/english/es/factsheets/fs_termination.html

In most cases, an employer can terminate an employee's job at any time, but employers must provide proper written notice, or termination pay instead of notice.

Mmm-hmm... right.... so I guess all those people with Wrongful Dismissal suits shouldn't even bother because this little section is all the company needs to defend itself and is all-encompassing... which also means a company can fire whomever they want whenever they want without cause... if that's true, then a lotta people would be unemployed right now!

Companies don't have to give references. That is true. But there is no law that states that a reference has to be a positive one. --Peter

Whether or not there's a law doesn't matter, cuz the moment a negative reference is made, you've got slander/libel, not to mention possibly interfering with the life and liberty of a person.

[Pete Jones]

Mmm-hmm... right.... so I guess all those people with Wrongful Dismissal suits shouldn't even bother because this little section is all the company needs to defend itself and is all-encompassing... which also means a company can fire whomever they want whenever they want without cause... if that's true, then a lotta people would be unemployed right now!

http://www.duhaime.org/Employment/ca-wd.aspx

"In wrongful dismissal cases, the wrong suffered by the employee is the breach by the employer of the implied contract term to give reasonable notice before terminating the contract of employment. Damages are awarded to place the employee in the same position as he/she would have been had reasonable notice been given."

In other words, cover your ass sufficiently, (as the employer) and you're good as gold.

Whether or not there's a law doesn't matter, cuz the moment a negative reference is made, you've got slander/libel, not to mention possibly interfering with the life and liberty of a person.

Wrong!

For your perusal, the libel and slander act of Ontario:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/90l12_e.htm

Libel and slander laws may not necessarily apply in these cases as long as the comments made are in good faith and contain an accurate and verifyable representation of the truth. Having said that, one still must measure one's words carefully. It's one thing to say. "Joe had 15 sick days last year , all om Mondays" but it's something different to say "Joe is always off sick"

A good lawyer could probably find a way of ligitating on the basis of "unfair comment" or "malicious comment" and this is why lots of companies can't be bothered with the reference thing.

But my point is you're saying that an employer "can't" give a bad reference. Well, actually, they can, but it's not worth the hassle. There _is_ a difference. Understanding those issues underlines the relative uselessness of references as a means of selecting candidates.

--Pete

[Hellfire]

She got pay in lieu of notice, they covered their ass.

[nanirina]

This type of thing happens quite a lot. The company did what was legal and already paid her in lieu of notice. As for references, they're not obliged to in anyway.

I worked for Morgan Stanley before for internship, and yes you'd think they'd give you a reference, but my employer said it was basically company policy not to give reference. HR can confirm I worked there and that's it.

So what's best now is not to look back and see what you can do to them to get some sorta revenge or what, but to move on and to look for other jobs.

[neospice]

So a couple days after the fact she talked to the firm owner's wife (she runs the admin staff) and she said that for a reference she would confirm employment and her responsibilities but nothing more. If they asked why she was let go, she would say no comment. Now my gf doesn't know whether or not to include her as a reference. She's got a couple interviews lined up already and I told her to include the job on your resume but not the reference as the point of one is to have the person give praise to you as an employee. When she asked her other co-workers they said that there was an email that all references go through the women (the guys wife) and no one was willing to risk it.

[Octavius]

"No Comment" doesn't really sound all that appealing to me as an employer if I called up her old work and they told me that as her reason for leaving. Now, if they said that all they could tell me due to company policy was confirm employment and her job duties and that she did a good job (and couldn't tell me her reason for leaving) that is another story. If they just confirm employment and state job duties, and say "no comment" for everything else, I'd definitely be weary of hiring her.

If you put that job on the resume, GUARANTEED they are going to ask for her reason for leaving. You might be better off just leaving it off the resume entirely. They will poke and prod your most current job the most (being the one she was dismissed from), and you definitely want to avoid that if she left there on bad terms. There have been plenty of people who have gone without a job for 6 months...there is no shame in it. If you can't find work, you can't find work, that's exactly what they'll think.

So a couple days after the fact she talked to the firm owner's wife (she runs the admin staff) and she said that for a reference she would confirm employment and her responsibilities but nothing more. If they asked why she was let go, she would say no comment. Now my gf doesn't know whether or not to include her as a reference. She's got a couple interviews lined up already and I told her to include the job on your resume but not the reference as the point of one is to have the person give praise to you as an employee. When she asked her other co-workers they said that there was an email that all references go through the women (the guys wife) and no one was willing to risk it.