Israel's Internet Army!

[Crotchety Old Man]

While I'm certain it will come as no surprise to anyone here at RFD, the strategy is now beginning to be recognized by the media:

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html).

Israel’s Government has thrown its weight behind efforts by supporters to counter what it believes to be negative bias and a tide of pro-Arab propaganda. The Foreign Ministry has ordered trainee diplomats to track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of Jewish activists can place supportive messages.
We've got at least a full regiment operating here at RFD, with squadrons of newbie reinforcements being parachuted in daily...

http://xcb.xanga.com/ad1b44046703042968502/z29150707.jpg

[Casanova]

that would explain teh surge in new posters:

In the past week nearly 5,000 members of the World Union of Jewish Students (WUJS) have downloaded special “megaphone” software that alerts them to anti-Israeli chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints. A student team in Jerusalem combs the web in a host of different languages to flag the sites so that those who have signed up can influence an opinion survey or the course of a debate.

Hey, if they pay well, I might join.

[Happy13178]

Anyone surprised that this, which is basically calling all pro-Israel sentiment propaganda, is coming from two of the most ardent anti-Israel posters in the board? I'm only surprised asim isn't in on it too.

[asim99]

thanks crotchety...the terrorist state DOES need lots of liars to mask the terror it is unleashing on the palestinians and the lebanese, and killing hundreds of their civilians, many of them intentionally and deliberately

how long before "times of london" is labelled anti-semite for printing this excellent report?

[Crotchety Old Man]

Anyone surprised that this, which is basically calling all pro-Israel sentiment propaganda, is coming from two of the most ardent anti-Israel posters in the board? I'm only surprised asim isn't in on it too.
So, the linked news story is not true then?

[Happy13178]

So, the linked news story is not true then?

I think it's foolish that anti-Israel posters are so hysterical over people defending Israel and not seeing their side that they have to accuse people of being paid to post their views. It's right up there in the same league as the idiots who feel the need to compare Israel to nazis and deride the holocaust...the only reason to bring things like that up is to hurt and anger Jews. There's absolutely no good reason for it, and it calls into question the credibility of those flinging the insults. It's honestly that more than the issue itself that pushes people away from supporting the anti-Israel movement...some of the things said by these posters are only a hair away from quotes taken from the terrorists themselves.

[Crotchety Old Man]

...the only reason to bring things like that up is to hurt and anger Jews.
Who said anything about religion?

(That one's straight out of the Israeli Internet Army Tactical Handbook (Section VII - Article ii): When in over your head in a rational debate, accuse the other person of anti-semitism.)

[bottomfeeder]

Check out this video from Israel.

The song is in Jewish but it has english subtitles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WxQcWNHmAo

Thoughts? I would be ashamed.
not even Americans do this

[poedua]

Anyone surprised that this, which is basically calling all pro-Israel sentiment propaganda, is coming from two of the most ardent anti-Israel posters in the board? I'm only surprised asim isn't in on it too.

It seems only reasonable that forums such as RFD would have posters who are allegedly engaging in partisanship representing both sides.......RFD has posts spouting just as much pro- Israel sentiment propaganda as pro-Arab sentiment propaganda.....it's called people simply disagreeing on politics. .

It also seems reasonable that any side - be it Jewish or Arab - who chooses to actively " track websites and chatrooms so that networks of US and European groups with hundreds of thousands of ( be Jewish or Arab ) activists can place supportive messages " or " software that alerts them to ( be it anti-Israeli or anti-Arab ) chatrooms or internet polls to enable them to post contrary viewpoints " is free to do so....freedom of speech at play.

I see no issue with either side taking whatever non-violent means it can to post contrary viewpoints in the many forum of public opinion.

[poedua]

Who said anything about religion?

(That one's straight out of the Israeli Internet Army Tactical Handbook (Section VII - Article ii): When in over your head in a rational debate, accuse the other person of anti-semitism.)

Actually, Crotchety Old Man / Biosh...the generic version of that " tactic " is also actively employed here on RFD by supporters of both sides ......cases in point being " When in over your head in a rational debate, accuse the other person of anti-semitism " .... AND....... " When in over your head in a rational debate, accuse the other person of being anti-Arab, anti-Islam, anti-Muslim, anti-Palestine " etc. etc..

[asim99]

Who said anything about religion?

(That one's straight out of the Israeli Internet Army Tactical Handbook (Section VII - Article ii): When in over your head in a rational debate, accuse the other person of anti-semitism.)
or if the critic is jewish, call him a "self-hating jew"

[Paksis]

While I'm certain it will come as no surprise to anyone here at RFD, the strategy is now beginning to be recognized by the media:

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html).


We've got at least a full regiment operating here at RFD, with squadrons of newbie reinforcements being parachuted in daily...

http://xcb.xanga.com/ad1b44046703042968502/z29150707.jpg


Oh man, now your saying everyone who posts who posts an opposing view to your own will be a "Cyber Soldier-Yes you too can be one, send in your Official entry form found in ten boxtops of the official sponsor the Kosher Wheaties as well as 1.00 and an Id card and key chain will be mailed out to you with the secret decoder ring as well as your pointy tin foil hat. Please send 10.00 for postage." ;)

Gives you an easy out now, you just say that person is a cyber soldier you can ignore him/her. :cheesygri

[Mr._Hankey]

Check out this video from Israel.

The song is in Jewish but it has english subtitles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WxQcWNHmAo

Thoughts? I would be ashamed.
not even Americans do this

LOL awesome video :lol:
The language is called Hebrew btw.

[bottomfeeder]

LOL awesome video :lol:
The language is called Hebrew btw.


Are you saying that you like the video
and the message it is communicating?

Is this what Israelis / Jews find funny?

I supported the invasion of Iraq and cleaning up Afghanistan - - BUT I sure would neve have sung about it in this way.

This to me is a clear indicator of a sick society - very sick.

Since I oppose Israel's overly aggressive and careless military strategy and tactics and I created a video similar to this - anti-Israel - what would you lable me as? How quickly woud the ADL and a slew of other Jewish groups have me in court for all sorts of anti-semitic charges?

Once more - DISGUSTING
I take my stand.

[lip1978]

You mean I could get PAID for this?
Cool!

[curtis]

This video reminds me of the cartoon video where the guy get's so angry at being killed in a game of counter strike and all he can do is whine.

LOL awesome video :lol:
The language is called Hebrew btw.

[hagbard]

While I'm certain it will come as no surprise to anyone here at RFD, the strategy is now beginning to be recognized by the media:

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html).


We've got at least a full regiment operating here at RFD, with squadrons of newbie reinforcements being parachuted in daily...

http://xcb.xanga.com/ad1b44046703042968502/z29150707.jpg

Explains a lot of the posters here.

[bambam]

I think they are also looking for affiliates. So an opportunity is there for some... :|

[konfusion666]

I don't understand why everyone's making fun of the OP's linked article.

The article linked to is a serious article, in a serious publication... not even close to being a tabloid.

From the braying of the Israel supporters in this thread, you'd think he just posted a link to an opinion piece in a blog... :rolleyes:

[Crotchety Old Man]

Heh! A very vocal group on RFD, all of a sudden goes silent on this topic...

;)

[haowong]

The way I see it, both parties are biased and both parties are guilty of misinformation and propaganda.

Both camp are composed of logical human beings that have their own reasons for acting the way they do. In their own way, both parties are right. They just have some misunderstanding between them.

Its just that they get so fanatic about their point of view that they completely disregard the opposite camps point of view.

The day these people can switch sides and defend their ennemies point of view is the day world peace will be achieved.

Until then, I will just stand by and watch the bloodshed without taking sides.

[z_squared]

The way I see it, both parties are biased and both parties are guilty of misinformation and propaganda.

Both camp are composed of logical human beings that have their own reasons for acting the way they do. In their own way, both parties are right. They just have some misunderstanding between them.

Its just that they get so fanatic about their point of view that they completely disregard the opposite camps point of view.

The day these people can switch sides and defend their ennemies point of view is the day world peace will be achieved.

Until then, I will just stand by and watch the bloodshed without taking sides.


HEY LOOK!!!! THE MOST INTELLIGENT STATEMENT EVER MADE ON RFD ON THIS TOPIC! :arrowl:

I agree with everything except your last point. If you're not in one of the 2 camps, you're ideally situated to look at both sides objectively. You're still allowed to form an opinion. You don't necessarily have to be impartial (unless you genuinely feel that both sides are equally right/wrong)

[Crotchety Old Man]

I will just stand by and watch the bloodshed without taking sides.
HEY LOOK!!!! THE MOST INTELLIGENT STATEMENT EVER MADE ON RFD ON THIS TOPIC! :arrowl:

The key point in the OP, is not that people will take sides, but rather that internet forums such as RFD, are being used in a systematic way to distribute propaganda for one side. This is a disturbing trend, that compromises one of the great open communication venues of the Internet

Though, I support the underdog in most cases including this one, I am only speaking as an individual, I am not receiving my talking points from Central Command...

[poedua]

The key point in the OP, is not that people will take sides, but rather that internet forums such as RFD, are being used in a systematic way to distribute propaganda for one side. This is a disturbing trend, that compromises one of the great open communication venues of the Internet

Though, I support the underdog in most cases including this one, I am only speaking as an individual, I am not receiving my talking points from Central Command...

Well, to be entirely accurate Crotchety Old Man / Biosh.....the so-called " disturbing trend " you touch upon are not forums just " being used in a systematic way to distribute propaganda for one side " ....but BOTH SIDES.

Posts containing anti-Isreal / Jewish propaganda and anti-Hezbellah / Arab propaganda are being used in a " systematic way " by people from BOTH sides here on RFD...not just " one side ".

[Blunt]

Heh! A very vocal group on RFD, all of a sudden goes silent on this topic...

;)

That cause some of us are waiting for our pay.
No pay, no type.

Where do I pick up my cheque anyways?
Knowing them... they probably underpaid me too...
:cheesygri

[nahim.a.a]

... And people said I was crazy, when I kept saying there are 'professional posters' pushing Israeli agenda!

[Crotchety Old Man]

Well, to be entirely accurate Crotchety Old Man / Biosh.....the so-called " disturbing trend " you touch upon are not forums just " being used in a systematic way to distribute propaganda for one side " ....but BOTH SIDES.

Posts containing anti-Isreal / Jewish propaganda and anti-Hezbellah / Arab propaganda are being used in a " systematic way " by people from BOTH sides here on RFD...not just " one side ".
No problemo -- just post your link showing an organized system of anti-Israel Internet messaging equivalent to the OP linked article...

[lip1978]

No problemo -- just post your link showing an organized system of anti-Israel Internet messaging equivalent to the OP linked article...

I think the state run media internet sites of a few middle eastern states would fall under that category.

[Crotchety Old Man]

I think the state run media internet sites of a few middle eastern states would fall under that category.
I thought not...

[masterhapposai]

told you guys its real :lol: and that i doubted asim was being paid..

[will1087]

I'm actually israeli....

http://www.funpartystores.com/bobby%20shhh.jpg

[lip1978]

I thought not...

http://www.sofir.org/sarchives/005026.php

While Qa`idat al-Jihad may not necessarily act as a cohesive and organized group, the actions undertaken in its name or linked to the movement are driven and fueled by a coherent “ideological and doctrinal umbrella.” Furthermore, through the use of the Internet - the “open university of global Jihad” - al-Qaeda has successfully enabled millions of Muslim youngsters to create a new sense of identity—as members of the worldwide Islamic Nation - the Ummah

[nahim.a.a]

... And speaking of Israel's Internet army - well no one exemplifies that more so than the ever incompetent and master of ad-hominems - lip1978.

[danfromwaterloo]

Shoot! We've been found out!

Now, anybody who tries to counter a pro-Palestianian or an anti-Israeli point of view can be called a mindless Israeli recruit.

Bravo.

Frankly, I'm really not caring for these debates anymore. A debate is supposed to be where people consider their positions and try to illustrate how their position is correct. This has turned into a screaming match. Who can call one side a terrorist/nazi/extremist/etc the most or the loudest.

[SkiLLz]

This explains so much about will1087.....


On topic, it's unfortunate that this thread degenerated into a bunch of sarcastic retorts by people who think the OP is seriously contending that every pro-Israeli on this site is a member of the 'cyber army'.

[Ojam]

Marketing firms and other corporations do it, so why wouldn't a country do it? I would be really suprised if some countries DIDN'T do it.

[konfusion666]

On topic, it's unfortunate that this thread degenerated into a bunch of sarcastic retorts by people who think the OP is seriously contending that every pro-Israeli on this site is a member of the 'cyber army'.

CoM's OP contained sarcasm, which the pro-IDF/Israel side took seriously (?) -- that would be the only justification for their retorts, AFAICT.


Marketing firms and other corporations do it, so why wouldn't a country do it? I would be really suprised if some countries DIDN'T do it.

Exactly. But countries lacking in resources (money) or not possessing a clear political direction (Canada) might not engage in it.

Actually, I'd say Canada does it as well, but through the political parties rather than the federal government.

Example (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060728.wtories29/BNStory/National/)

[Ojam]

Actually, I'd say Canada does it as well, but through the political parties rather than the federal government.

Right, just like corps, not every country would gain any benefit from such techniques, or some could, but simply do not have the resources to put them to use.

[gei]

thanks crotchety...the terrorist state DOES need lots of liars to mask the terror it is unleashing on the palestinians and the lebanese, and killing hundreds of their civilians, many of them intentionally and deliberately

how long before "times of london" is labelled anti-semite for printing this excellent report?

while im sure there is some truth to what the OP posted, I think the bigger propoganda throwers are the pro-muslim, pro-arab ones who go around bashing israel.. calling them "terrorists" and blah blah. look at the number of threads started which are only there to make israel look bad.

case in point, asim99 :D

[Rehan]

which are only there to make israel look bad. hahaha As if you haven't started threads bashing certain religions. :rolleyes:

And it's not like Israel needs any help looking bad... its soldiers are doing an amazing job of it themselves by carelessly bombing civilian areas and killing hundreds of people. Polls in Canada, UK, and other countries around the world (except for comrades Israel and USA, of course) show that most people do not stand with Israel. As more and more people ending up hating Israel's policies, Israel has itself to blame.

[Txiasaeia]

Well, while these witch hunts are going on ("You're a paid shill for the IDF!" "Yeah, well Hezbollah signs your pay cheque!"), this is a terrific time to announce my departure from RFD for the next month or so. I'm moving to South Korea with the wife and kids and my internet access will be sporadic until we're settled. I'm sure I'll still post here and there, but the attitude on RFD is getting pretty oppressive, what with the "say that you condemn this attack or you support the murder of innocent babies!" attitude.

To my IDF spy master: please hold all cheques until further notice.

[Ojam]

I'm moving to South Korea with the wife and kids and my internet access will be sporadic until we're settled.

Just out of curiosity why are you moving to South Korea? Job? I hear it’s quite nice.

[danfromwaterloo]

hahaha As if you haven't started threads bashing certain religions. :rolleyes:

And it's not like Israel needs any help looking bad... its soldiers are doing an amazing job of it themselves by carelessly bombing civilian areas and killing hundreds of people. Polls in Canada, UK, and other countries around the world (except for comrades Israel and USA, of course) show that most people do not stand with Israel. As more and more people ending up hating Israel's policies, Israel has itself to blame.

There are a lot of policies that I think are morally and ethically wrong that Israel has.

For example, assassinations. I can't think of many situations where such a thing can be considered moral.

I'm curious though - we know that Hezbollah is using civilians as shields against the attacks. What is Israel to do against them? What would we do if the US was bombing us from Queens or Harlem, where there's a large civilian population? How would we handle the same situation?

[lip1978]

... And speaking of Israel's Internet army - well no one exemplifies that more so than the ever incompetent and master of ad-hominems - lip1978.

You have GOT to be kidding me!
You have some nerve. I have a feeling that you haven't even read my posts to realize that my opinion of Israel's response has changed drastically after the UN station was hit.
PS Please get your head out of your butt.

[Ojam]

I'm curious though - we know that Hezbollah is using civilians as shields against the attacks. What is Israel to do against them? What would we do if the US was bombing us from Queens or Harlem, where there's a large civilian population? How would we handle the same situation?

As much as it would hurt, everything should be done to minimize civilian deaths. Instead of bombing from the air, send in Special Forces to take down Hezbollah one by one. There would still by civilian deaths, and IDF soldier deaths would be higher, but that’s the price you pay for war. Right now Israel seems like they want all the benefits of war, without any of the costs to themselves and are just passing it on the general Lebanese population. They do this and instead of having 1 Hezbollah death for every 10 civilian deaths, you would have 10 for 5. Israel has trained its army for urban combat, it’s what they have been doing for 20 years, they have the ability to NOT kill so many civilians, but they are choosing not too.

[Evil Baby]

Check out this video from Israel.

The song is in Jewish but it has english subtitles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WxQcWNHmAo

Thoughts? I would be ashamed.
not even Americans do this


ahhh man I love propaganda. The one from Hezbollah is better though

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqvrynHsLdA&search=%20Hezbollah%20propaganda

It certainly sounds cooler anywho

[Rehan]

As much as it would hurt, everything should be done to minimize civilian deaths. Instead of bombing from the air, send in Special Forces to take down Hezbollah one by one. There would still by civilian deaths, and IDF soldier deaths would be higher, but that’s the price you pay for war. Right now Israel seems like they want all the benefits of war, without any of the costs to themselves and are just passing it on the general Lebanese population. They do this and instead of having 1 Hezbollah death for every 10 civilian deaths, you would have 10 for 5. Israel has trained its army for urban combat, it’s what they have been doing for 20 years, they have the ability to NOT kill so many civilians, but they are choosing not too. Bingo.

And in terms of Israel's cyber-soldiers, I can see why they need them. The common line of defence of Israel's continued breeches of Geneva Conventions protocols (http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/protocol1.html#51) (in Qana, and many other places) is that the Hezbollah militants are bombing from near residential building and are breeching the Geneva Conventions themselves. Okay, fine... if Israel wants to put itself on the same level as Hezbollah, then they should anticipate the same level of criticism for their actions. And that's where the cyber-soldiers will need to play their role and spin the propaganda.

[asim99]

Well, while these witch hunts are going on ("You're a paid shill for the IDF!" "Yeah, well Hezbollah signs your pay cheque!"), this is a terrific time to announce my departure from RFD for the next month or so. I'm moving to South Korea with the wife and kids and my internet access will be sporadic until we're settled. I'm sure I'll still post here and there, but the attitude on RFD is getting pretty oppressive, what with the "say that you condemn this attack or you support the murder of innocent babies!" attitude.

To my IDF spy master: please hold all cheques until further notice.
despite your tongue in cheek attack on me right in that post, i wish you well as you move to s/k...from SK to SK, eh

[Evil Baby]

While I'm certain it will come as no surprise to anyone here at RFD, the strategy is now beginning to be recognized by the media:

Israel backed by army of cyber-soldiers (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html).


We've got at least a full regiment operating here at RFD, with squadrons of newbie reinforcements being parachuted in daily...

http://xcb.xanga.com/ad1b44046703042968502/z29150707.jpg


Seems like a waste of resources. With the amount of force Israel is using they aren't going to convince anybody who doesn't already side with them that they are in the right. Besides I've only ever seen one person change their mind on a messageboard and I have been arguing for a long while now

[God_Anubis]

1. The recent bombing of a residential building that killed more than 50 civilians was a catastrophic mistake. As always, the whole world is pointing fingers at Israel, squarely blaming it without getting all the facts straight. This shows how biased the media is against Israel. The IDF just released a report of the time discrepancy between the actual time when bombs were dropped and when the buildings were hit. This casts doubt on whether Israel was the culprit behind this attack. There's some speculation that Hezbollah may have carried out the attacks to attract media attention. Only time will tell. Regardless, this unfortunate tragedy will allow the IDF to create a full-scale, thorough investigation to get to the bottom of it.

2. The unfortunate bombing of a U.N. outpost could have been avoided had the U.N. removed their troops out of the war zone. They intentionally didn't take any action, knowing that their troops were fully exposed to harm/danger by both sides. I wonder what the world's reaction would have been had Hezbollah hit the outpost.

3. Where's my big paycheck? I hope it arrives in the mail soon. Do they use Xpresspost Crotchety Old Man? Any information? I'd rather get a nice BestBuy giftcard.

[danfromwaterloo]

Bingo.

And in terms of Israel's cyber-soldiers, I can see why they need them. The common line of defence of Israel's continued breeches of Geneva Conventions protocols (http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/protocol1.html#51) (in Qana, and many other places) is that the Hezbollah militants are bombing from near residential building and are breeching the Geneva Conventions themselves. Okay, fine... if Israel wants to put itself on the same level as Hezbollah, then they should anticipate the same level of criticism for their actions. And that's where the cyber-soldiers will need to play their role and spin the propaganda.

Agreed. It seems the only innocents are those dying. In Israel, and in Lebanon. Hezbollah needs to stop shooting from civilian locations, Israel needs to stop shooting AT civilian locations.

In a sense - stepping back from morality here for a bit - what Hezbollah is doing is tactically genius. Anywhere where Israel hits them, they get mad civilian casualties.

The solution, I would think, to this problem is to strictly abide by the ceasefire for 48 hours. Tell all civilians in Lebanon to get out or risk being caught in the crossfire. That way, all the "protected" spots for Hezbollah - the civilians - are gone. Then, they can attack at will. Anybody dumb enough to stay has been warned and given opportunity to leave.

[lip1978]

Then, they can attack at will. Anybody dumb enough to stay has been warned and given opportunity to leave.

Ah, but those civilians who support Hezbollah might stay, and do a Ghandi-like "let them hit you and do nothing, and the world will see" type of thing.

[asim99]

Ah, but those civilians who support Hezbollah might stay, and do a Ghandi-like "let them hit you and do nothing, and the world will see" type of thing.
are there any hezbollah supporters here? care to point out?

as regards what israel should do is quite clear...it should get out of the occupied territorties...it should distmantle all the illegal settlements...it should stop killing civilians and children...it should respect the sovereignty of any palestinian state, and that of its neighboring countries

i doubt israel will ever be able to secure itself without doing all of the above..."do nothing" is not a viable option for israel

[SkiLLz]

1. The recent bombing of a residential building that killed more than 50 civilians was a catastrophic mistake. As always, the whole world is pointing fingers at Israel, squarely blaming it without getting all the facts straight. This shows how biased the media is against Israel.
So you're saying that if any other country bombed a residential building, killing dozens of women and children, the whole world would turn a blind eye, but if Israel does it, the world gets enranged? Are you on crack? Why do ALL of you have such a 'victim' attitude whenever any criticism is thrown on ANYTHING Israel does? Is there anything Israel could possibly do to warrent your criticism?

[asim99]

So you're saying that if any other country bombed a residential building, killing dozens of women and children, the whole world would turn a blind eye, but if Israel does it, the world gets enranged? Are you on crack? Why do ALL of you have such a 'victim' attitude whenever any criticism is thrown on ANYTHING Israel does? Is there anything Israel could possibly do to warrent your criticism?
they want everyone to turn a blind eye to israeli terrorism, like the united states does

[danfromwaterloo]

Ah, but those civilians who support Hezbollah might stay, and do a Ghandi-like "let them hit you and do nothing, and the world will see" type of thing.

In a sense, they're already doing that.

[danfromwaterloo]

1. The recent bombing of a residential building that killed more than 50 civilians was a catastrophic mistake. As always, the whole world is pointing fingers at Israel, squarely blaming it without getting all the facts straight. This shows how biased the media is against Israel. The IDF just released a report of the time discrepancy between the actual time when bombs were dropped and when the buildings were hit. This casts doubt on whether Israel was the culprit behind this attack. There's some speculation that Hezbollah may have carried out the attacks to attract media attention. Only time will tell. Regardless, this unfortunate tragedy will allow the IDF to create a full-scale, thorough investigation to get to the bottom of it.

Now now, lets not get carried away here. There have been more than one occasion where the US has bombed an embassy by mistake. They've taken flak for it too.

I think its a little paranoid and head-in-the-sand to think that Israel couldn't have done this and that it was a Hezbollah setup. I think Hezbollah started firing from there in the hopes this would happen, but it WAS Israel that fired those missles.


2. The unfortunate bombing of a U.N. outpost could have been avoided had the U.N. removed their troops out of the war zone. They intentionally didn't take any action, knowing that their troops were fully exposed to harm/danger by both sides. I wonder what the world's reaction would have been had Hezbollah hit the outpost.

Don't blame the UN. They're supposed to be observers - impartial ones. The fact they got killed was tragic AND Israel's fault. You fire the missle, you take responsibility for who or what it destroys.


3. Where's my big paycheck? I hope it arrives in the mail soon. Do they use Xpresspost Crotchety Old Man? Any information? I'd rather get a nice BestBuy giftcard.

Me too. Trying to take a moderate stance on everything surely is worth a few shekels... :)

[lip1978]

Don't blame the UN. They're supposed to be observers - impartial ones. The fact they got killed was tragic AND Israel's fault. You fire the missle, you take responsibility for who or what it destroys.


I've been going back and forth on that.
They had a responsability and as an organization, paid the price for not getting it done.
Since 1982 UNIFIL (United Nations International Force in Lebanon) was given the mandate to help the Lebanese gov't disarm Hezbollah. (Also to ensure an Israeli withdrawal from South Lebanon, which was completed in 2000)
The US was giving them 100 mill/year for this force.
It's become apparent that they weren't fulfilling their mandate very well at all.

[Txiasaeia]

Just out of curiosity why are you moving to South Korea? Job? I hear its quite nice.

I was offered a job there & decided that the timing and money was perfect, so off we go! We're really looking forward to it.

despite your tongue in cheek attack on me right in that post, i wish you well as you move to s/k...from SK to SK, eh

Heh, I wasn't eventhinking about you when I posted that, promise. There was another poster who's been posting those sort of comments that I was talking about. But thanks! I'll be sure to keep in touch - for better or worse! ;)

[Rehan]

Quick, someone direct the army of cyber-soldiers towards the poll at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/poll/pollResultHub. For the question "Which nation or organization is most responsible for the carnage in Lebanon?", Israel is way too close to Hezbollah. This anti-semitism must be elimintated from the G&M!

[Rehan]

Quick, someone direct the army of cyber-soldiers towards the poll at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/poll/pollResultHub. For the question "Which nation or organization is most responsible for the carnage in Lebanon?", Israel is way too close to Hezbollah. This anti-semitism must be elimintated from the G&M! :lol: I guess someone took me seriously!

When I posted that message, there were about 155,000 votes with the following split:
Hezbollah - 36% - 55,800
Israel - 32% - 49,600
Iran - 10% - 15,500
USA - 10% - 15,500
(percentages are what were shown on G&M... I've used those percentage numbers to calculate the number of votes)

And now, less than an hour later, with 175,000 the split is like this:
Hezbollah - 35% - 61,250
Israel - 28% - 49,000
Iran - 15% - 26,250
USA - 9% - 15,750
(again, the vote numbers are calculated based on what G&M shows...that's why Israel's votes are lower in the numbers above.... on the G&M site, the votes for Israel have increased in the last hour but only minimally)

Good job cyber-troops! Keep clicking!
:lol:

[SkiLLz]

:lol: I guess someone took me seriously!

When I posted that message, there were about 155,000 votes with the following split:
Hezbollah - 36% - 55,800
Israel - 32% - 49,600
Iran - 10% - 15,500
USA - 10% - 15,500
(percentages are what were shown on G&M... I've used those percentage numbers to calculate the number of votes)

And now, less than an hour later, with 175,000 the split is like this:
Hezbollah - 35% - 61,250
Israel - 28% - 49,000
Iran - 15% - 26,250
USA - 9% - 15,750
(again, the vote numbers are calculated based on what G&M shows...that's why Israel's votes are lower in the numbers above.... on the G&M site, the votes for Israel have increased in the last hour but only minimally)

Good job cyber-troops! Keep clicking!
:lol:Wow, that's hilarious. I voted a few minutes after you posted that and Israel was still at ~32%.

[gei]

This thread is actually kinda funny. All I EVER see on RFD are the same few people attacking israel over and over. Where are these supposed cyber israeli people to combat them?

[SkiLLz]

This thread is actually kinda funny. All I EVER see on RFD are the same few people attacking israel over and over. Where are these supposed cyber israeli people to combat them?
If that's all you ever see, it kinda shows your bias now doesn't it?

[will1087]

If that's all you ever see, it kinda shows your bias now doesn't it?

Take a look at the threads created.

[SkiLLz]

Take a look at the threads created.
Take a look at the replies.

[will1087]

Take a look at the replies.

And...?

[bottomfeeder]

Maybe we should have a similar poll here on RFD to see what RFDers think

By the way it is NOT anti-semitism to be critical of Israeli military and foreign policy.

[lip1978]

Maybe we should have a similar poll here on RFD to see what RFDers think

By the way it is NOT anti-semitism to be critical of Israeli military and foreign policy.

Do you think it's anti-semitism (anti-Jewish, whatever term :)) to hope for the end of the State of Israel?

[bottomfeeder]

I think that the desire for the state of Israel not to exist would probably be ANTI-ZIONISM

But - people prefer to use the term anti-semitism as a sledge-hammer because it has a lot of marketing brand-equity type power. People are conditioned to shut up when the term anti-semitism is used. Only people with weak arguments and skills use the term anti-semitism when it does not deserve to be used. Why don't people that want to use words understand what those words actually mean.

ANTI-ZIONISM
Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-zionism
Anti-Zionism is often characterized by opposition to the existence of the State of Israel as a Jewish state, for instance by those who advocate a binational state comprising the territories of the State of Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, in which both Jews and Palestinians would be citizens. Other "Anti-Zionists", such as some Palestinian militant groups, call for the total elimination (by whatever means) of the Jewish presence in the region of Palestine, which includes the territory of the State of Israel.

[lip1978]

I see what you're saying, but I would put forward that it's actually anti-Semitism because to single it out as not deserving a state compared to the other countries of the world can truly only be attributed to the fact that it's using Jewish law as its base.

Almost every other country has been created based on some "group" of people, but rarely are there calls for the destruction of those countries/states.

[Rehan]

I see what you're saying, but I would put forward that it's actually anti-Semitism because to single it out as not deserving a state compared to the other countries of the world can truly only be attributed to the fact that it's using Jewish law as its base.

Almost every other country has been created based on some "group" of people, but rarely are there calls for the destruction of those countries/states. I think almost everyone that has an issue with the state of Isreal does so because of its location and wouldn't have a problem if the Jewish state was somewhere else like Africa (as some early Zionists envisioned) or Europe.

[bottomfeeder]

lip1978 - YUP - through sheer power of your personal will and ego should go out and change the definition of words and concepts to fit your political agenda.

Good luck!

Why are people anti-Zionists? Not because Israel is full of Jews but because it is the newest country to be created by FORCE and the original ozzupants of the land being treated by shiit. The creation of Israel contradicts all the values that we espouse to hold dear.

had Israel been created in 1847 (and the Palestinians ethinically cleansed by 1907) - I don't think anyone would give a shiit - but since it was created just 60 years ago and we can still see the anguish of the Palestinian people - we have some anti-Israeli sentiments.

I hope that you realize that this has nothing to do with JEWISH RELIGION but with Israelis - most of whom happen to be Jewish.

[lip1978]

Ah, but to put the Jewish state elsewhere would be to deny the importance of that geographic area to the Jewish religion. It's a fundamental connection.

I'm still surprised that the Vatican has never raised a stink about Bethlehem and Nazareth, and who controls them.

As for the early Zionist Congress ideas, I think it was more like someone said - "well, we could go to Zimbabwe (or whichever country was brought up)", and everyone else went - Nu? Are you crazy? Britain suggested we could take half of a third of Palestine.

[Rehan]

Ah, but to put the Jewish state elsewhere would be to deny the importance of that geographic area to the Jewish religion. But most Israeli Jews are secular!

[Mr._Hankey]

Are you saying that you like the video
and the message it is communicating?

Is this what Israelis / Jews find funny?

I supported the invasion of Iraq and cleaning up Afghanistan - - BUT I sure would neve have sung about it in this way.

This to me is a clear indicator of a sick society - very sick.

Since I oppose Israel's overly aggressive and careless military strategy and tactics and I created a video similar to this - anti-Israel - what would you lable me as? How quickly woud the ADL and a slew of other Jewish groups have me in court for all sorts of anti-semitic charges?

Once more - DISGUSTING
I take my stand.

What are you nuts?
The clip is about Nasrallah and Hezbollah, the approaching death of the filthy terrorist pigs.
What's so wrong about it? Would it be wrong to have made a similar clip about Bin Laden and Al Qaeda?

[lip1978]

You'd be surprised. I stayed in Israel, and alot of people observed Friday night Sabbath dinner together, the buses shut down Friday night -> Saturday, and alot alot of Israelis keep kosher.
The Jewish holidays are stat days.
So compared to North American Jewry, because of how the society is set up, their traditions and way of life is far from secular.

[bottomfeeder]

Lip1978

What are your thoughts on the Filistines, Canaanites and Hittites? These people were in what is today Israel BEFORE the Jews. Filistines, Canaanites and Hittites are the ancestors of the Palestinian people so therefore they have a greater and more legitimate claim to the land.

Using the rational that god gave them the land is BS - especially since the probability that god exists is very low.

If God did exist - why does he not come down and tell us who should live there?

[bottomfeeder]

What are you nuts?
The clip is about Nasrallah and Hezbollah, the approaching death of the filthy terrorist pigs.
What's so wrong about it? Would it be wrong to have made a similar clip about Bin Laden and Al Qaeda?

Think back a few weeks and all the uproar over the video created by the Marine about his adventures.

Americans aren't singing about the deaths of people in Iraq.
Canadians aren't singing about the deaths of people in Afghanistan.

We have a little more sensitivity than that.
We know that some things have to be done but we don't take joy in it.

The fact that you take joy in that shows what your values are.

[lip1978]

These people were in what is today Israel BEFORE the Jews. Filistines, Canaanites and Hittites are the ancestors of the Palestinian people so therefore they have a greater and more legitimate claim to the land.


Where did you get that from? I'd like to read a credible source before I respond.
Thanks.

[Mr._Hankey]

Filistines, Canaanites and Hittites are the ancestors of the Palestinian people

Since when?

[hagbard]

Quick, someone direct the army of cyber-soldiers towards the poll at http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/content/poll/pollResultHub. For the question "Which nation or organization is most responsible for the carnage in Lebanon?", Israel is way too close to Hezbollah. This anti-semitism must be elimintated from the G&M!

So where do you actually "vote"? I just see results.

[Rehan]

So where do you actually "vote"? I just see results. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/ ... half way down on the right side.

[hagbard]

Ah, but to put the Jewish state elsewhere would be to deny the importance of that geographic area to the Jewish religion. It's a fundamental connection.

I'm still surprised that the Vatican has never raised a stink about Bethlehem and Nazareth, and who controls them.

As for the early Zionist Congress ideas, I think it was more like someone said - "well, we could go to Zimbabwe (or whichever country was brought up)", and everyone else went - Nu? Are you crazy? Britain suggested we could take half of a third of Palestine.

They also considered a couple of S. American countries. Still think they should be offered Arizona.

[gei]

Take a look at the replies.

Exactly my point.

These anti-israel types really seem to be going out of their way to create new posts like "israel is evil... look what they did"

Whereas the rest of the people just join the threads and try to throw some reason into an obviously propoganda-type of post.

[Mr._Hankey]

Think back a few weeks and all the uproar over the video created by the Marine about his adventures.

Americans aren't singing about the deaths of people in Iraq.
Canadians aren't singing about the deaths of people in Afghanistan.

We have a little more sensitivity than that.
We know that some things have to be done but we don't take joy in it.

The fact that you take joy in that shows what your values are.

I take joy in the killing of TERRORISTS.
Nowhere does this clip even mention the Lebanese people or any other PEOPLE for that matter, but filthy terrorist pigs who the Israelis want dead - for their sake and the sake of Lebanon and its civilians.
I advise you to practice your reading comprehension before you jump to stupid conclusions.

[Rehan]

Exactly my point.

These anti-israel types really seem to be going out of their way to create new posts like "israel is evil... look what they did"

Whereas the rest of the people just join the threads and try to throw some reason into an obviously propoganda-type of post. So either you're blind or you think that lip1978, plymouthhater, NorthYorker, d_jedi, and will1087 are among the "anti-israel types".
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3657614#post3657614

[hagbard]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/ ... half way down on the right side.

Thanks!

[bottomfeeder]

Where did you get that from? I'd like to read a credible source before I respond.
Thanks.

Ummm - when was the last time that you read the Old Testament or the Torah?

Funny how people base opinions on incomplete information sets - or the fact that they try to avoid the facts that don't work for them. How about I do some research for you since you are obviously too lazy to do it yourself


Philistines
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Map showing the location of Philistine states, c.800 BC.

The historic Philistines were a people who inhabited the southern coast of Canaan around the time of the arrival of the Israelites, their territory being named Philistia in later contexts. Their origin has been debated among scholars, but modern archaeology has suggested early cultural links with the Mycenean world in mainland Greece. Though the Philistines adopted local Canaanite culture and language before leaving any written texts, an Indo-European origin has been suggested for a handful of known Philistine words. There is no basis to the claim that the etymology of this word can be based on the Semitic word Plishah.

NOTICE THAT - The Philistines lived on the land BEFORE the Israeli Invasions.

See map at
http://www.bible-history.com/maps/canaanite_nations.html
http://www.bible-history.com/geography/maps/map_palestine_territory.html

The nations of Canaan before the Israelite invasions. The Old Testament mentions a lot about Canaan, the half of Palestine to the west of the Jordan. This name "Canaan" has been found in Egyptian inscriptions of the New Kingdom, and also in the Tell el-Amarna letters. The Canaanites mostly lived in the plains (the coastal strip and near the Jordan). The Amorites lived in the hill country. Other tribes lived in Canaan: The Perizzites, Hivites, Hittites, Jebusites, Moabites, Edomites, Philistines and Girgashites. The Canaanites descended from Canaan, the son of Ham and father of Heth, thus they were a separate race from the Semites. The people were never known to be united and was divided into numerous city-states, dependent upon Egypt. There have been numerous discoveries and cuneiform inscriptions, especially in the Tell el-Amarna letters.

History of Palestine and Green Line Israel
http://www.brianwillson.com/palest_hist.html
The land that later came to be called Palestine was first inhabited as early as 9,000 years ago. The city of Jericho, a few miles north of the Dead Sea and west of the Jordan River, is reported to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world. Canaan (the Biblical name for Palestine) later became inhabited by Semitic tribes from the inner Arabian Peninsula. The Jebusites, one of the Canaanite tribes, built a settlement 5,000 to 6,000 years ago called Urusalin (Jerusalem), meaning "the city of peace." Peace is still "salaam" in Arabic and "shalom" in Hebrew. Around 2000 BC, another Semitic people, the Hebrews, headed by Abraham, passed through Canaan on their way south. About 1300 BC Hebrew tribes under the leadership of Moses returned from Egypt and engaged in wars with the Canaanite tribes for possession of the land. The Philistines in the south, the Canaanites (Jebusites), Phoenicians, Amorites, and Hittites in the north resisted the Hebrew (Israelite) invasion. Four centuries later, the Israelites, under David, were successful in uniting the Hebrew nation, conquering and substantially absorbing the Canaanites. From this point, Israelites, Philistines, Hittites, and Canaanites mixed races and have subsequently been a racially mixed, Semitic people.


The history -- who ruled Palestine?
http://www.diversitywatch.ryerson.ca/backgrounds/palestinian.htm

3000BC -- Canaanites inhabit Palestine

1125BC -- Israelites conquer the Canaanites

1050BC -- Philistines conquer Israelites.

1000BC -- Under King David, Israelites conquer Philistines and establish the nation of Israel. After his son, King Solomon dies, Israel becomes divided: the north becoming Israel and the south becoming Judah.

722BC -- Israel falls to Assyria

586BC -- Babylon captures Judah -- This defeat resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and the exile of most of the Jews to Babylon -- the so-called Babylonian captivity.

539BC -- Under Cyrus the Great, the Persians conquered Babylonia. The Jews were allowed to return to Judaea, a district in Palestine.

333BC -- Alexander the Great captures Palestine. His successors -- the Egyptian Ptolemies and the Syrian Seleucids -- tried without success to force Greek culture and religion on the people.

141-63BC -- The Jews revolted and established an independent state. This lasted until Pompey the Great conquered Palestine for Rome and made it a province of the Roman Empire ruled by Jewish kings. Rome ruled Palestine for about 700 years.

638AD -- Palestine is invaded by Muslim Arab armies that capture Jerusalem. Thus begins 1300 years of Muslim presence in what becomes known as Filastin.

1517 -- The Mamelukes are defeated by the Ottomans, who rule Palestine for the next four hundred years -- until the winter of 1917-18.

1880s -- With the rise of anti-Semitism in Europe, Jews begin to migrate to Palestine.

1917-18 -- The British takes Palestine from the Ottomans at the end of World War I.

1917 -- Britain creates Balfour Declaration that outlines conditions to create a "national home" for Jews in Palestine. With this declaration, Britain hoped to gain the support of the Jews for the Allied cause in World War I.

July 24 1922 -- The declaration was incorporated into the League of Nations mandate for Palestine. It outlines the terms under which Britain was given responsibility for temporary administration of the country. The mandate lasted from 1922-1948.

1935 -- Over 60,000 Jews come into Palestine.

1936 -- Because of a fear of Jewish domination, an Arab revolt broke out. This continues on and off until 1939.

1947 -- Britain declares the mandate unworkable and passes the problem over to the United Nations. Under David Ben-Gurion, the Jewish army fights against the Arab
Palestinians and defeats them.

On May 14th 1948, the State of Israel is created. Because of this, five Arab states, in support of the Palestinians, attack the new state but are defeated. This is known as the first Arab-Israeli War. As a result of the war, 780,000 Palestinians became refugees.

[lip1978]

Well, I knew all THAT. It was the part where you said that current Palestinians are decendants of those groups that threw me for a loop. And I still haven't seen any proof of that.

[hagbard]

Bottomfeeder- Where's the part about the Khazar Empire converting to Judaism in the 9th Century? And their migration throughout Europe?

[bottomfeeder]

Learn you history - and not the freaking revisionist one you worship

More info

Judah Takes the Lead
http://www.bible.org/NETbible/jdg1.htm

1:1 After Joshua died, the Israelites asked the Lord, “Who should lead the invasion against the Canaanites and launch the attack?” 1:2 The Lord said, “The men of Judah should take the lead. Be sure of this! I am handing the land over to them.” 1:3 The men of Judah said to their relatives, the men of Simeon, “Invade our allotted land with us and help us attack the Canaanites. Then we will go with you into your allotted land.” So the men of Simeon went with them.

1:4 The men of Judah attacked, and the Lord handed the Canaanites and Perizzites over to them. They killed ten thousand men at Bezek. 1:5 They met Adoni-Bezek at Bezek and fought him. They defeated the Canaanites and Perizzites. 1:6 When Adoni-Bezek ran away, they chased him and captured him. Then they cut off his thumbs and big toes. 1:7 Adoni-Bezek said, “Seventy kings, with thumbs and big toes cut off, used to lick up food scraps under my table. God has repaid me for what I did to them.” They brought him to Jerusalem, where he died. 1:8 The men of Judah attacked Jerusalem and captured it. They put the sword to it and set the city on fire.

Seems that the God of the Torah was into serious ethnic cleansing even back then


History of Palestine
http://www.palestine-encyclopedia.com/EPP/Introduction1o2.htm
Palestine was known in ancient history as the Land of Canaan. When Abraham migrated to the Land of Canaan it was a well-developed country. The Philistines entered the Land of Canaan from Crete about 1250 B.C. and settled in the coastal areas. They established five kingdoms, Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gath and Ekron. They were the people who gave Palestine its name, and the Land of Canaan since Roman times has been known as Palestine.

About 1100 B.C. Israelite tribes entered the Land of Canaan at Jericho. They conquered a part of the Land of Canaan and established a kingdom in Judea about 1000 B.C. About 935 B.C. the kingdom was divided into the Kingdom of Israel in the north and the Kingdom of Judah in the south. About 725 B.C. the Kingdom of Israel was conquered and many Israelites were taken to Babylonia. About 600 B.C. the Kingdom of Judah was conquered by the Babylonians. The Israelite tribes were either exiled to Babylonia or were absorbed by the Canaanites. This means that Israelite rule over a part of Palestine lasted only about 400 years, during which time the majority of the population were Canaanite and mixed Canaanite-Israelite. Many of the Israelite kings of the two kingdoms followed Canaanite religions.

The Greeks conquered and ruled the Land of Canaan from 330 B.C. until 70 B.C. The Romans conquered and ruled the country from 63 B.C. until 614 A.D. Jesus Christ was born and Christianity spread in the country. Many Jews in Palestine became Christians. Many of the apostles were Jews.

[lip1978]

Still waiting for the part where you connect those Biblical groups to modern day Arabs living in Gaza and the WB.
PS. The Palestine in your last post was long destroyed when the new Palestine was named.

[plymouthhater]

I'm still surprised that the Vatican has never raised a stink about Bethlehem and Nazareth, and who controls them.

Especially when the Palestinians totally demolished the interior of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem back when their terrorists took hostages and barricaded themselves inside.

[bottomfeeder]

Well, I knew all THAT. It was the part where you said that current Palestinians are decendants of those groups that threw me for a loop. And I still haven't seen any proof of that.


Philistines + Canaanites + other merged into the group we call modern day Palestinians. (Tired of doing research again and again - maybe someone else can find relevant links that well satisfy the doubters). The Early Philistines, Canaanites etc were non-Semitic peoples but they were also not Arabs. They became Muslim somewhere around 700 AD after the Arab Muslims invaded and converted everyone.

Pertaining to Khazzar
Israelis are descended from the very Jews kicked out of Palestine? WRONG.
The ancient Hebrews who once conquered the land of Canaan(biblical Palestine) are not the ancestors of present day Israelis. In fact, most Israelis are descended from a Russian tribe called Khazzar that converted to Judaism in the 8th century.

There were a few nomadic Arab tribes in Palestine; the Jews moved in peacefully into unpopulated areas and the Arabs, being the barbarians they are, got annoyed. WRONG.
The popular image of Palestine before 'Israel' is that it was empty of human life, or at least that there were very few people there. The Balfour Declaration, in it's very wording, implied this lie, and many Jews believed it. The fact is that Palesitine was full of people, about 90% non-Jew. The Jews, Christians and Muslims had all gotten along fine before the Zionist terror, and all of them, Muslims included, were shocked and dismayed at what had happened to innocent Jews in Nazi Germany.


Here is best timeline I have found yet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine
http://www.israelipalestinianprocon.org/history.html
http://www.berclo.net/page03/03en-notes-mideast.html

Other
http://www.factbites.com/topics/Philistine

[lip1978]

Philistines + Canaanites + other merged into the group we call modern day Palestinians. (Tired of doing research again and again - maybe someone else can find relevant links that well satisfy the doubters).

Someone please find a credible source... thanks. There was nothing in the sources that you provided that even said they were the group we call modern day Palestinians.
That was your words.

[bottomfeeder]

Still waiting for the part where you connect those Biblical groups to modern day Arabs living in Gaza and the WB.
PS. The Palestine in your last post was long destroyed when the new Palestine was named.


Palestine at MSN
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558705/Palestine.html
The Canaanites were the earliest known inhabitants of Palestine. During the 3rd millennium bc they became urbanized and lived in city-states, one of which was Jericho. They developed an alphabet from which other writing systems were derived; their religion was a major influence on the beliefs and practices of Judaism, and thus on Christianity and Islam.

What is a Palestinian
http://www.mediamonitors.net/edna61.html
Palestinians are descended from the ancient Canaanites and Philistines. In the 3rd millennium BC, the Canaanites became urbanized and lived in city-states, one of which was Jericho. Later on, the Philistines established an independent state on the southern coast of Palestine and controlled a number of towns in the north and the east. Because they were superior in military organization and were skilled in using iron weapons, they drastically defeated the Hebrew people around 1050 BC who had either migrated to the area or been led out of Egypt by the Prophet Moses.

Someone please find a credible source... thanks. There was nothing in the sources that you provided that even said they were the group we call modern day Palestinians. That was your words.

Ironic that the Jews in Israel today apparently are not the Jews of the Biblical times. Can you prove to me that the modern Jews are genetically connected to the ancient Jews? Or are modern Jews just other peoples that have converted to Judaism. Isn't it weird that most Jews in Israel are Jews that came from Russia?

Of interest
The Prophesied State of Palestine
http://askelm.com/prophecy/p010401.htm

Cana, Canaanites
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03569b.htm

[lip1978]

Palestine at MSN
http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558705/Palestine.html
The Canaanites were the earliest known inhabitants of Palestine. During the 3rd millennium bc they became urbanized and lived in city-states, one of which was Jericho. They developed an alphabet from which other writing systems were derived; their religion was a major influence on the beliefs and practices of Judaism, and thus on Christianity and Islam.

What is a Palestinian
http://www.mediamonitors.net/edna61.html
Palestinians are descended from the ancient Canaanites and Philistines. In the 3rd millennium BC, the Canaanites became urbanized and lived in city-states, one of which was Jericho. Later on, the Philistines established an independent state on the southern coast of Palestine and controlled a number of towns in the north and the east. Because they were superior in military organization and were skilled in using iron weapons, they drastically defeated the Hebrew people around 1050 BC who had either migrated to the area or been led out of Egypt by the Prophet Moses.



Ironic that the Jews in Israel today apparently are not the Jews of the Biblical times. Can you prove to me that the modern Jews are genetically connected to the ancient Jews? Or are modern Jews just other peoples that have converted to Judaism. Isn't it weird that most Jews in Israel are Jews that came from Russia?

Hold on, your proof still rings hollow. the Phillistines existed around 1050BC around the time of Moses. Well, the Jews returned to Canaan after Moses. You should know that from the long list of biblical links you posted. The independant state your post talks about predates even King David.

Oh, and about that genetic link for Jews - http://judaism.about.com/od/kohanimandleviim/a/skorecki_kohen.htm

Skorecki’s tests found that a particular array of six chromosomal markers were found in 97 of the 106 Kohens tested. This collection of markers has come to be known as the Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH). The chances of these findings happening at random is greater than one in 10,000.

[bottomfeeder]

How about this - prove to us that the modern Palestinians ARE NOT the descendants of the ancient Philistines and Canaanites that live there BEFORE the Israeli invasions.

The only way that you can prove that the ancient Philsitines and Canaanintes DO NOT exist is if there was a genocidal event.

[Mr._Hankey]

How about this - prove to us that the modern Palestinians ARE NOT the descendants of the ancient Philistines and Canaanites that live there BEFORE the Israeli invasions.

The only way that you can prove that the ancient Philsitines and Canaanintes DO NOT exist is if there was a genocidal event.

LOL

[bottomfeeder]

Fundamentally the following happened

1. People lived in the Palestine / Israel area
2. Isrealites came in - kicked some ass - lived there for a while
3. The Israelites got their asses kicked and left
4. Other people stayed behind for over 1,600 years
5. Zionists come back and start kicking ass again


Can it be any simpler

[Mr._Hankey]

Fundamentally the following happened

1. People lived in the Palestine / Israel area
2. Isrealites came in - kicked some ass - lived there for a while
3. The Israelites got their asses kicked and left
4. Other people stayed behind for over 1,600 years
5. Zionists come back and start kicking ass again


Can it be any simpler

If it's any more complicated your mind would find it too difficult to grasp.
I'll let lip keep doing his good job at making your posts look ludicrous.
:lol:

[bottomfeeder]

If it's any more complicated your mind would find it too difficult to grasp.
I'll let lip keep doing his good job at making your posts look ludicrous.
:lol:

Ha ha ha - yes - the personal attacks occur when you have no counter-argument

If only you guys actually tried to prove something rather than acting like 5 year old children saying "But why ...", "Prove it ...", "I don't believe you..."

I think I have tried to support my arguments with facts.
Where are your counter-arguments?

Unless of course you can't take the time or don't have the capability to write more than a dozen words at a time.

So PROVE TO ME that todays Palestinians are not descendants of the ancient Philistine and Canaanites with some Arabic blood mixed in.

[Crotchety Old Man]

I think almost everyone that has an issue with the state of Isreal does so because of its location and wouldn't have a problem if the Jewish state was somewhere else like Africa (as some early Zionists envisioned) or Europe.
That'd be cool with me...


(BTW: Interesting observation of the G&M poll - I'll bet your RFD post alone directly accounted for a full percentage point change. Scary.)



((Also: To all those who have inquired, you will find your PPP (Propoganda Performance Payments) deposited to your PayPal accounts at midnight of the day following a successful posting... ;) ))

[Mr._Hankey]

Ha ha ha - yes - the personal attacks occur when you have no counter-argument

If only you guys actually tried to prove something rather than acting like 5 year old children saying "But why ...", "Prove it ...", "I don't believe you..."

I think I have tried to support my arguments with facts.
Where are your counter-arguments?

Unless of course you can't take the time or don't have the capability to write more than a dozen words at a time.

So PROVE TO ME that todays Palestinians are not descendants of the ancient Philistine and Canaanites with some Arabic blood mixed in.

Why would anyone want to do your own work? Seems to me this's what 5 year olds do, don't you think?

[Crotchety Old Man]

Why would anyone want to do your own work? Seems to me this's what 5 year olds do, don't you think?
Submitted for nomination for the RFD Mature Response of the Week award!

[lip1978]

Ok... let's try this

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_name_origin.php

The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs.

Another group, coming from Crete after being repulsed from an attempted invasion of Egypt by Rameses III in 1194 BCE, seized the southern coastal area, where they founded five settlements (Gaza, Ascalon, Ashdod, Ekron and Gat). In the Persian and Greek periods, foreign settlers - chiefly from the Mediterranean islands - overran the Philistine districts.
----
And that was the end of the Philistines.

[lip1978]

Or this:

http://www.bartleby.com/61/66/P0246600.html
-----------
It has never been good to be a Philistine. In the Bible Samson, Saul, and David helped bring the Philistines into prominence because they were such prominent opponents. Though the Philistines have long since disappeared, their name has lived on in the Hebrew Scriptures.
-----------

[asim99]

www.palestinefacts.org eh
that's where the history is rewritten and revised

[scottmcl]

war/racism=bad

nuff said

[Mr._Hankey]

The Philistines lost their independence to Tiglath-Pileser III of Assyria by 732 BC, and revolts in following years were all crushed. Later, Nebuchadrezzar II of Babylon eventually conquered all of Syria and the Kingdom of Judah, and the former Philistine cities became part of the Neo-Babylonian Empire. All traces of the Philistines as a people or ethnic group disappear. Subsequently the cities were under the control of Persians, Jews (Hasmonean Kingdom), Greeks (Seleucid Empire), Romans, and subsequent empires.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

[lip1978]

www.palestinefacts.org eh
that's where the history is rewritten and revised

Well, his sources weren't exactly unbiased, so I gave myself a little leeway. Your sources haven't always been clean either.

That's why I added the bartlet's one afterwards.

[asim99]

Well, his sources weren't exactly unbiased, so I gave myself a little leeway.
oh well, as long as you admit it ;)

[bottomfeeder]

OK - how about the Canaanites?

Logic would dictate the following:

If even one Philistine remained then that genetic link to the past Philistines exists.

If even one Canaanite remained then there is a genetic link to the past Canaanite exists.

Are you saying that each and every Philistine and Canaanite were killed?

It is natural for ebb and flow of populations to grow, decline and merge with other racial groups. It is stated clearly that in the eigth century AD the Arabic Muslims came to the area and converted the locals to Islam. Present day Palestinians have the genetic relationship to the ancient Philistines, Canaanites and Arabs.


The fundamental facts are that there were people there before the Jews arrived and after the Jews left the area other people remained and lived there for many many centuries.

Now - explain to me why Palestinians - regardless of genetic make-up - have no property rights to the area in which they have lived for all those centuries?

[lip1978]

You just based your entire theory on the assumption that 1 Canaanite and 1 Phillistine survived all these years?
Did you REALLY just do that?

OMG! WE COULD ALL BE BROTHERS AND DECENDANTS OF THE PHILLISTINES!

Yes, that was sarcasm because that's all your posts deserve at this point. Sorry to burst your bubble.

No, I can't stop... obviously 1 Canaanite is enough, but apparently there are ZERO Jews... HAHAHAHAHAHHA...

ok, I think I'm done now...

[bottomfeeder]

Why is my proposal so hilarious?

Do Jews not claim to be descendants of Abraham or Moses or something like that? All Jews are descendants of ONE man?

So if you laugh at my proposal then you laugh at some fundamentals of Judaism.

I did not say that one pure Philistine or Canaanite has survived but that the genetic legacy of the Philistines or Canaanites must still survive in the people that have lived there over the last two thousand years.

If you don't understand this sort of fundamental logic then there is no point in debating with you.

Funny realization - the RFD effect - i try to work through logic yet because the intellectual level here appears to be rather low I must resort to calling people stupid. I am so embarassed with myself. i have been 'dumbed down' by RFD.

[lip1978]

So if you laugh at my proposal then you laugh at some fundamentals of Judaism.


Oh, I thought you were denying any Jewish claim over the land because of genetic link, and then claiming the same genetic link to establish your point...

Oh, wait, that IS what you were trying to do!

1 person does not a claim make. And for someone who claims to know the Old Testament (or at least enough to go to biased websites and pick and choose packages) I'll fill you in on a little history...

According to the Old Testament, and respect by the "Big 3"... All of us decended from Noah after the flood.

Then later on, the Big 3 decended from Abraham.
There's a split during the Abraham sacrifice story, but it goes Jews from Isaac, Muslims from Ishmael.

But that's biblical, and far from any scientific proof, so you won't get an argument from me on that.

And don't flatter yourself... your points were unprovable by any valid source because they were FALSE.

[maebach]

Are you saying that you like the video
and the message it is communicating?

Is this what Israelis / Jews find funny?

I supported the invasion of Iraq and cleaning up Afghanistan - - BUT I sure would neve have sung about it in this way.

This to me is a clear indicator of a sick society - very sick.

Since I oppose Israel's overly aggressive and careless military strategy and tactics and I created a video similar to this - anti-Israel - what would you lable me as? How quickly woud the ADL and a slew of other Jewish groups have me in court for all sorts of anti-semitic charges?

Once more - DISGUSTING
I take my stand.

What about all those OSama/taliban/al queda jokes? ISnt that the samething. Hezbollah is te same as al queda and the video is on hezbollah. So I dont see whats wrong. I even saved it to my favourites :lol:

[Rembrandt100]

Check out this video from Israel.

The song is in Jewish but it has english subtitles.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WxQcWNHmAo

Thoughts? I would be ashamed.
not even Americans do this

Oh yes they do!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-jbA437FHFU&search= Is a Disney toon called Hitler's Children

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2263301282676551422 Is aPopeye toon called spinich for Britain. He also had one called Your a Sap Mister Jap but it has been pulled for a violation

The quote below was taken from a banned toon dvd sale. I will not post the site because there are racist toons there as well.

"Booby Traps" and "Spies", two short cartoon features were made for the US military use during WWII. The entire series of Private Snafu is available elsewhere (and recommended). There are the usual, unflattering wartime stereotypes in these two, which is presumably why it's included in the collection"

A list of war toons for sale on E-Bay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=617&item=9146352020

How about Donald Duck

http://googlevideos.blogspot.com/2006/03/banned-cartoons-donald-duck-spirit-of.html

A donald duck that won an acadamy award http://disneyshorts.toonzone.net/years/1943/derfuehrersface.html

Dave

[bottomfeeder]

Oh, I thought you were denying any Jewish claim over the land because of genetic link, and then claiming the same genetic link to establish your point...

Oh, wait, that IS what you were trying to do!

Aaaarggghhhh you freaking ******.

Jews/Israelis use the genetic link to the homeland that they lived in 2 freaking thousand years ago and then left.

My commentary was that if that argument is good for the Jews/Israelis then their claim is invalidated because there was someone there BEFORE them and logically people that live there today can theoretically claim they were there longer and thereby have a greater connection to the land.

Holy shiit are you mental or something or just shooting wet stinky chunky shiit out your arse? I keep forgetting about the concept of the bell curve and intelligence and that obviously there must be someone like yourself on the trailing edge.

[bottomfeeder]

Oh yes they do! http://youtube.com/watch?v=-jbA437FHFU&search= Is a Disney toon called Hitler's Children
Dave

That was WW2 - show me any refernces TODAY

Like I said - think back to that Marine that made the rather innocent song about killing an Iraqi and the media stink that happened. Noone today is singing about killing Iraqis - or at least not that I have seen

[hugh_da_man]

They're paying people for using common sense?

Israel is one clever country.

[hagbard]

They're paying people for using common sense?

Israel is one clever country.

Haha..... :lol:

[Rembrandt100]

That was WW2 - show me any refernces TODAY

Like I said - think back to that Marine that made the rather innocent song about killing an Iraqi and the media stink that happened. Noone today is singing about killing Iraqis - or at least not that I have seen

My point is that you said "not even Americans do this". Well they already did it many years ago. As far as the crap that is happening today? Well maybe a few nukes would not be that wrong. To hell with them all.

Dave

[Happy13178]

Aaaarggghhhh you freaking ******.

Jews/Israelis use the genetic link to the homeland that they lived in 2 freaking thousand years ago and then left.

My commentary was that if that argument is good for the Jews/Israelis then their claim is invalidated because there was someone there BEFORE them and logically people that live there today can theoretically claim they were there longer and thereby have a greater connection to the land.

Holy shiit are you mental or something or just shooting wet stinky chunky shiit out your arse? I keep forgetting about the concept of the bell curve and intelligence and that obviously there must be someone like yourself on the trailing edge.

Whether or not you can attribute this to "the RFD effect", this is a personal attack against lip1978. He's not name calling. Reported.

[bottomfeeder]

Whether or not you can attribute this to "the RFD effect", this is a personal attack against lip1978. He's not name calling. Reported.

Ha ha ha - I guess that is the strategy.

Hey - THat is exactly what Israel does - keep pushing buttons until someone gets pissed off and then go crying. Here you "report" the issue while Israel goes to kill people.

Happy13178 - where have you contributed up to this point in this conversation? What gives YOU the right to report someone?

[Crotchety Old Man]

Aaaarggghhhh you freaking ******.

Jews/Israelis use the genetic link to the homeland that they lived in 2 freaking thousand years ago and then left.

My commentary was that if that argument is good for the Jews/Israelis then their claim is invalidated because there was someone there BEFORE them and logically people that live there today can theoretically claim they were there longer and thereby have a greater connection to the land.

Holy shiit are you mental or something or just shooting wet stinky chunky shiit out your arse? I keep forgetting about the concept of the bell curve and intelligence and that obviously there must be someone like yourself on the trailing edge.
bottomfeeder, I'm not sure why you should care about my opinion, but here it is nonetheless:

You are falling victim to a strategy of antagonising you. You made your points very well earlier in the thread, backed up by research, links, and sound reasoning. The points made in response to yours were just the opposite.

I realize it can be hard to withstand inane circular questioning, but it comes to a point where you have to decide that your point is well made and leave it be. To continue to respond, feeds the trolls and begins to weaken your own argument, or worse sends you off onto a wild diatribe as above.

My suggestion: Apologise and delete the post. Your work in this thread will be the better for it.

[bottomfeeder]

Good points Crotchety Old Man

I knew what I was saying was not the right thing to say - but I felt that those words would be the only ones that they would understand. That emotional language was the only way that I could at the time communicate the level of emotion that I was starting to feel.

Thank you for your support and your positive comments on my earlier posts.
It is nice to see that at least one person appreciates the time and effor I put into trying to show my points.

lip1978 - my apologies for sinking to a low emotional level and making personal attacks against you. I should not have done that.

[will1087]

Kyle: Wow! That's a lot of seamen, Cartman.
Cartman: Yeah, I bought all that I could at this bank, and then I got the rest from this guy Ralph in an alley.
Stan: That's cool.
Cartman: Yeah, and the sweet thing is, the stupid ******* didn't even charge me money for it. He just made me close my eyes and suck on a hose.

:lol:

[Happy13178]

Ha ha ha - I guess that is the strategy.

Happy13178 - where have you contributed up to this point in this conversation? What gives YOU the right to report someone?

Everyone can report anyone. You made a personal attack, and regardless of whether or not you thought you were provoked, it was an attck, and lip1978 didn't make one. I've contributed in countless threads, a hell of a lot more than you, and if you bothered to look at Page 1 of this one you'd see that I have here as well. If you can't argue without making personal attacks on people that don't agree with your POV, you shouldn't be posting, period. This type of topic is going to have circular questioning because it's a circular topic. Nobody is giving way, because neither side thinks they're wrong.

Hey - THat is exactly what Israel does - keep pushing buttons until someone gets pissed off and then go crying. Here you "report" the issue while Israel goes to kill people.

On a side note, that's pretty much the same thing that happened with Israel's enemies, isn't it? Keep kidnapping soldiers, firing rockets, sending in suicide bombers until Israel strikes back, and now crying foul?

[Crotchety Old Man]

It takes a big man to make an apology (and a small one to ignore it)...

[Happy13178]

It takes a big man to make an apology (and a small one to ignore it)...

I'm not ignoring it, it wasn't directed at me. lip can do as he likes now. I responded to bf's assertion that I couldn't report a post attacking another poster. The really big man wouldn't have said it in the first place, and the even smaller man would toss around jabs after the fact.

[Deimos]

Are you saying that you like the video
and the message it is communicating?

Is this what Israelis / Jews find funny?

I supported the invasion of Iraq and cleaning up Afghanistan - - BUT I sure would neve have sung about it in this way.

This to me is a clear indicator of a sick society - very sick.

Since I oppose Israel's overly aggressive and careless military strategy and tactics and I created a video similar to this - anti-Israel - what would you lable me as? How quickly woud the ADL and a slew of other Jewish groups have me in court for all sorts of anti-semitic charges?

Once more - DISGUSTING
I take my stand.
Ugh you sicken me. You supported Iraq War!? What happened now.. did you forget to tune in to the propaganda channel? Bush administration admitted there were no WMD, no possibility of making WMD, and numerous corruption scandals. Meanwhile, US taxpayers are still paying billions more to keep over a hundred thousand of their soldiers in constant danger.

It doesn't matter how you sing about it or how you justify it. As long as you support Israeli agression, you are already caught in the tide of propaganda.

HEY LOOK!!!! THE MOST INTELLIGENT STATEMENT EVER MADE ON RFD ON THIS TOPIC! :arrowl:

I agree with everything except your last point. If you're not in one of the 2 camps, you're ideally situated to look at both sides objectively. You're still allowed to form an opinion. You don't necessarily have to be impartial (unless you genuinely feel that both sides are equally right/wrong)
My concscience is clean. BOTH WRONG ALL THE WAY. Anti (anybody) agression. Anti oppresion. Anti invasion. Anti occupation. Anti media terror.

[lip1978]

Bottom, I accept your apology and in turn apologize for replying in kind...

However, as for the discussion points itself, your posts did not prove your original hypothesis.
There was nothing in those posts that link the original Philistines and Canaanites to today's Palestinians.
And your leap of "there must be 1 left somewhere" as proof is not enough to prove your hypothesis. It was a flimsy point at best.

[Deimos]

I like this one:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3UmTniC5RFU&mode=related&search=

and his one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=OFUQ7AgvgJU&mode=related&search=

[Crotchety Old Man]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we've got ourselves an RFD first!!!

We've got our first ever double nominee for the RFD Mature Response of the Week award! Unprecedented, I know, but Happy13178 has outdone himself ...

For all you voters in the RFD Academy, here's a recap of his earlier nomination:

Submitted for nomination for the RFD Mature Response of the Week award!

Why would anyone want to do your own work? Seems to me this's what 5 year olds do, don't you think?

But not to be outdone, Happy13178 has actually attempted the unheard of -- he's going for the legendary double slammer, he's attempting to top himself...

Behold! Witness maturity at it's finest:

I'm not ignoring it, it wasn't directed at me. lip can do as he likes now. I responded to bf's assertion that I couldn't report a post attacking another poster. The really big man wouldn't have said it in the first place, and the even smaller man would toss around jabs after the fact.
It's going to be a close race, but I must admit, I have every confidence that the most mature man will win...




(Edit: Oops... you guys are so consistently on message in your talking points that I got you mixed up - my apologies for the confusion.)

[Happy13178]

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we've got ourselves an RFD first!!!

We've got our first ever double nominee for the RFD Mature Response of the Week award! Unprecedented, I know, but Happy13178 has outdone himself ...

For all you voters in the RFD Academy, here's a recap of his earlier nomination:



But not to be outdone, Happy13178 has actually attempted the unheard of -- he's going for the legendary double slammer, he's attempting to top himself...

Behold! Witness maturity at it's finest:


It's going to be a close race, but I must admit, I have every confidence that the most mature man will win...

Um...so both those posts were mine? Way to be mature on your own...and I'm pretty sure this qualifies as an attack too, but seeing as how none of the mods actually appear to ban anyone for this, guess that makes it fair game, right? I've actually seen more indignation towards people badmouthing MDG and Directbuy than I have people attacking other members, so what's the point of the rule?

[bottomfeeder]

Maybe they should call a cease-fire for the soccer games?


Israel Wants to Keep Soccer Games

By GABE ROSS

JERUSALEM Aug 1, 2006 (AP)— Israel will protest a decision by UEFA to move European soccer games out of the country because of the current violence.

A delegation from the Israeli Football Association is going to Switzerland to appeal, the federation said Tuesday in a letter sent to European soccer's governing body.

The IFA, however, has instructed the four Israeli clubs scheduled to compete in UEFA tournaments to find other venues for home games.

On Aug. 7, UEFA will decide the location of the Champions League qualifying-round game between Maccabi Haifa and Liverpool, which is scheduled for later in August. UEFA also will determine the location of the second-round qualifying game between Beitar Jerusalem and Romania's Dinamo Bucharest.

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory?id=2262004

[Mr._Hankey]

bottomfeeder, I'm not sure why you should care about my opinion, but here it is nonetheless:

You are falling victim to a strategy of antagonising you. You made your points very well earlier in the thread, backed up by research, links, and sound reasoning. The points made in response to yours were just the opposite.

I realize it can be hard to withstand inane circular questioning, but it comes to a point where you have to decide that your point is well made and leave it be. To continue to respond, feeds the trolls and begins to weaken your own argument, or worse sends you off onto a wild diatribe as above.

My suggestion: Apologise and delete the post. Your work in this thread will be the better for it.

You're reminding me of a high school math teacher I had in high school.
He used the same tactics, compliment the student for making an attempt, whether the answer was right or wrong and then carry on, without bothering to correct them. If I hadn't transferred to another class I would've failed like 90% of the students in his class.

[JayPatel]

Not very mature of you to post such a thing to begin with. Remove it and keep personal attacks out of the discussion

Well, ladies and gentlemen, we've got ourselves an RFD first!!!

[hagbard]

On another note, I found this in another forum and found it very entertaining. Don't agree with it entirely, but some pretty good insights. Unfortunately, this forum only allows the arbitary length of 10000 characters, so I'll have to split it up. Here is part one:

A Hezbollah Upon All of Thee!

July in Fresno, and yet I'm happy. In a mean way, the only way I know. For once I don't care how hot and miserable it is, because I've got something waiting for me at home: AC and CNN. God, I love watching CNN right now. Watching that needlenose whiner Anderson Cooper, trying not to state the obvious: Hezbollah is not only winning every round of this fight, but it was bound to win from the start. Get Jane Fonda out in the streets again, spray some pain relief on her saggy old throat, stuff a bullhorn in her liver-spotted hand and have her sing out: "Who needs Ho Chi Minh/Hezbollah is gonna win!"

The rest of you idiots actually seem to take Cooper seriously when he talks about how the IDF is going to "expel Hezbollah from Southern Lebanon." Christ, Hezbollah IS Southern Lebanon. You might as well try to expel ants.

I said in a column 16 months ago that Lebanon was due for a slow but unstoppable warming trend, finishing up with a hot war.

http://www.exile.ru/2005-February-25/war_nerd.html

Like I said in that column, we're not dealing with a few bad apples or bad luck. We're dealing with demographics, and demographics has no more mercy than a glacier. For a hundred years Lebanon has been shifting from a Maronite-Christian country with a bunch of non-Christian minorities (the Druze -- my personal favorites, the Sunni, the Shia) to a Muslim country with a Christian minority that's trying to emigrate as fast as it can fake up its resume for Uncle Sam's Migras. That part of the war is over, and Islam won. All that's left to see now is which Islam ends up in power: the Shia, with Syria and Iran backing them, or the Sunni, who have the backing of...well, nobody, actually.

Add in a couple of real important facts nobody ever mentions on CNN -- birthrate and morale. The Shia, who cluster in the slums of S and E Beirut and in the rural south of Lebanon, have the highest birthrate in Lebanon and have always been the poorest, most death-hungry people around. That's the stuff you make great soldiers from.

And Hezbollah has great soldiers. That's one reason I can't help liking them. They're some of the most underrated soldiers on earth facing what I consider the most overrated military force on earth, the IDF. The Israelis have been coasting on their reputation for a long time, but way back in Gulf War I it was clear they made their record like a Don King fighter, padding their Win column against a bunch of bums. When I saw those pitiful Arab "soldiers" crawling toward US camera crews on their hands and knees to surrender, the first thing that went through my head was, "Whoa, so that's the kind of opponent the Israelis have been showboating against? Well Hell, my high school marching band could've beaten those Arab chickenshits!"

I'm not alone in that conclusion either. One of the top US commanders in GW I called the IDF "a bunch of arrogant pricks who wouldn't last ten minutes on a European battlefield." Well, that bit about a "European battlefield" is another sad case of our NATO obsession, but the point is, the IDF doesn't deserve its rep. It did once, back in 1948 and during Suez, when it was manned by double-tough survivors of the European Jews who were determined to show up the book-nerd stereotype by kicking ass from Haifa to Damascus. Those dudes were truly tough.

ut we're talking demographics again, dude. Passage of time, plus difference in birthrate, means that by now the IDF has a thin, real thin, crust of Ashkenazi brains'n'brawn on top and a bunch of flabby mama's boys under them. See, those whitleather-tough survivors wasted their genes on the whole socialist kibbutz commune experiment, had a kid or two, or none. Their kids are old now. Meanwhile, Israel admitted every loser from Russia or Ukraine or Yemen who could claim a grandpa who liked carp or a grandma who carried the overprotective gene or whatever, anything that could make them look Jewish. Half of them were just lying to get out of their native Hellholes, and none of them were willing to die for Israel the way that kick-ass first generation was. Look at the news pictures up close, or just look at the pictures of that schmuck who got kidnapped in Gaza, Shalit, and you'll see what I mean: the weak and the freeloaders outbred the strong. Hell, that loser's name says it plain enough. What kind of soldier would anybody with the same name as that loudmouth ugly prick Gene Shalit be?

As long as the IDF was beating up on Hamas down in Gaza, it could hide its weakness most of the time. Not all of the time -- pretty sloppy, letting Hamas commandos tunnel right into that base, blast a tank and kidnap poor baby Shalit right while he was thinking up his next capsule review. Still, except for the occasional slip, the IDF was safe in its F-16s and Merkavas, facing Pals with nothing but rifles and old RPGs. It's easy to look tough rolling through refugee camps in the world's most heavily armored tank.

But as you may recall, those tanks got a real different reception when they chased Hezbollah's raiding party back into Lebanon after the Hezzies killed three IDF soldiers and kidnapped another two. The IDF mid-ranking commanders had to act fast because the Gaza command was taking heat for not pursuing Shalit's kidnappers fast enough. So they shouted, "Charge!" and the first Merkava steamed over the border.

Guess how far it got. Ten meters. Ten goddamn meters. Then KABOOM! A Hezbollah mine or shaped charge turned it into a very expensive oven, with four crew killed. Another IDF soldier died trying to rescue them. So within a few minutes the IDF had lost eight men. As far as I know, Hezbollah's losses were zero.

It was a good plot twist: one minute the IDF is stomping around Gaza blasting amateurs, when something taps it on the shoulder, and there's Hezbollah, looking like Godzilla in a headscarf. Pretty funny moment, something almost Abbot & Costello about it.

No army enjoys getting invited to a second front just when it was starting to enjoy itself on the first one. Even the Wehrmacht rank and file was bummed when they heard they were getting shipped from the beaches of the Mediterranean to Russia. And the IDF was no happier when they realized they had to quit using Gaza as a speed bag to spar with an enemy that could kill eight IDF guys in a few seconds.

Casualties. That's the key here. Every war, every army has a different population base, different demographics, and a different take on casualties. Israel's biggest weakness has always been that it hates to take casualties. You can see that in their famous prisoner exchanges, giving away hundreds of Islamic prisoners to get back one IDF guy, or in one case just the bodies of a couple of dead IDF guys. You can see it in the design of the Merkava -- a brilliant design, one that gives infantry the full protection of MBT armor, but also an indication that this army is terrified its guys might get hurt.

Compare that to the Hezbollah attitude to death, which is basically extreme eagerness. Death? Hell yes, can I have seconds? The sooner the better! I've talked about the Shia and their whole Gimme Martyrdom deal before.

http://www.exile.ru/2004-September-04/war_nerd.html

Like I said in that column, killing Shi'ites a few at a time is pointless:

They have a huge death wish, so naturally their holiest places are tombs. That's why Shi'ites make that pilgrimage to Karbala, to visit the tomb of Husain. Shi'ites commemorate Husain getting himself sliced and diced for ten days every year, slashing themselves with knives and bashing themselves with chains to celebrate that glorious defeat. Ayatollah Khomeini, the biggest Shi'ite hero of the 20th century, used to preach "Every day is the anniversary of the battle, and every place is Karbala." The inspirational message was: wherever you are, go get yourself massacred. What are you doing sitting around breathing? Why ain't you out there getting slaughtered, you lazy godless bum?

And these are the people we're picking off one by one, then bragging about body counts. Still wonder why the war's going so badly?

The way Israel is conducting the war right now is the worst of both worlds: it's too bloody and not bloody enough at the same time. Give me a second to explain what I mean by that. At the moment that skinny nasal-voiced jerk Anderson Cooper is saying Israel's killed about 320 Lebanese, vs. 36 Israelis dead. Now actually that's a perfectly standard count for asymmetrical warfare; the technologically superior force usually kills about ten of the guerrillas for every one of its own losses. But in PR terms, this war has been a disaster for Israel, a can't win scenario. Just try this experiment: watch CNN with the sound off for a few minutes. Without that non-stop pro-Israel commentary, you'll see what the whole world outside the US sees: non-stop video feed of terrified Lebanese civvies fleeing in terror, crying on camera, hugging their bloodied-up kids. Then there's a shot of the IDF zooming around in their Merkavas and US-supplied SP 155mms, blasting dry hills or doing dirt donuts on some local's wrecked house. Ask yourself this question:

[hagbard]

WHAT'S MISSING FROM THIS PICTURE?

It'll come to you after a minute: you never, ever see an armed Hezbollah fighter. They're there, all right. You better believe it. They've killed at least 20 IDF troops, and they're the real reason, the only reason, the IDF isn't invading all-out: because those Hezbollah apprentice martyrs are dug in, waiting and hoping and praying for the IDF to steam into the kill zones they've been polishing since Israel quit Lebanon in 2000.

But you never see them on TV. You think that's an accident? No, fellas, that's brains is what that is. Nasrullah may look like a fat social studies teacher who needs a shave, but you don't claw your way to the top of a bloody world like that one without brains. The men who run Hezbollah attacked because they finally figured out that they literally cannot lose. The IDF can never expel Hezbollah from South Lebanon, because it's a genuine mass movement, as committed and crazy at the roots as at the top. (As opposed to Arafat's PLO, which they could and did expel from Lebanon because it was topheavy, corrupt and cowardly.) If Israel comes down hard on the Lebanese, another generation learns to hate the Jews down south and dream of bloody revenge. If Israel holds off, then Hezbollah becomes the one victorious Arab/Muslim force in the world, darling of every little nine-year-old Jihadi in Jakarta and Khartoum. If Israel retaliates by blasting every target of value in Lebanon, every TV tower and shopping mall and freeway...well, that's the beauty of the plan: the Shia are the poorest of the poor. They don't own any of that **** anyway. They sit back and laugh watching their neighbors' stuff that they've envied all their lives get blown away -- and it's the Israelis who get the blame.

So call'em crazy if it makes you feel better, but don't call'em stupid. Better yet, get used to calling'em "Sir."

[maebach]

nice post hagbard, now Im feeling sorry for Isreal. . .

[Nemodigital]

Anyone surprised that this, which is basically calling all pro-Israel sentiment propaganda, is coming from two of the most ardent anti-Israel posters in the board? I'm only surprised asim isn't in on it too.
I think asim is on vacation...