The Palestinian gov't, society bashing thread

[lip1978]

I've seen a good number of threads in off-topic the past couple of weeks started with the idea of bringing forward alleged grievances with Israel.

In fairness, I thought I would start one with grievances towards Palestinian controlled Gaza, and the Arab states that surround Israel.

Feel free to add any news stories here where you are opposed to the actions of these states.

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http://english.people.com.cn/200607/03/eng20060703_279383.html

"Malaysia, as chairman of OIC (Organization of Islamic Conference) and NAM (Non-Aligned Movement), deplores and strongly condemns the unilateral action by Israel into Gaza and the unjustified detention of Palestinian ministers, members of the Palestinian legislative council and officials," said Syed Hamid.

- Nice forgetting of the fact Hamas went and killed 2 soldiers and kidnapped another one. Very strong debating tactic.

[lip1978]

http://www.irna.ir/en/news/view/menu-236/0607036085095558.htm

H Khomeini confers with resistance leaders of Palestine

The two sides discussed the "very sensitive" situation in the Middle East, especially in the occupied territories of Palestine, and stressed the necessity of strengthening unity among Palestinians, in particular among its resistance groups.

They condemned this week's Israeli attacks on the defenseless people of Gaza, underlining the right of Palestinians to resist the the Zionist regime's criminal operations.

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The right for Palestinians to kill Israeli soldiers without repurcussions. This is the idea they are floating forward. Ok, interesting viewpoint...

[lip1978]

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc .htm

1,117 people have been killed by Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000.

[plymouthhater]

Sometimes those who live in glass houses do throw stones
Moshe Elad

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3269971,00.html

There's an old Arab saying: Those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones at the neighbors. Only absurd rules like those governing the United Nations can create a situation in which "enlightened" Arab countries not exactly known for their stellar performance on human rights are permitted to pass judgment on Israel on the same issues.

During latest debates to grace the UN in New York and Geneva, representatives of countries that should themselves stand trial preached and denounced Israel. The fact that this was permitted to occur is an embarrassment to the very idea of the UN.

Once again it has been proved that the stage provided by this cynical, anachronistic organization to representatives of these countries to sit in judgment – at the same time that they really belong in the witness box – is a mark of disgrace for Kofi Annan and his people.

Once again, the UN has lost a bit more of whatever credit it had left by allowing countries that not only have a clear conflict of interest in the matter to denounce Israel, but also have no idea what basic freedoms such as freedom of speech are all about.

Egypt, for example. Last week, President Hosni Mubarak criticized Israel for failing to respond to demands made by the Palestinian gang who kidnapped Cpl. Gilad Shalit. We can assume that Mr. Mubarak did not speak out because he is opposed to attacks on Israel or giving in to the kidnappers' blackmail.

The Egyptian president – no cynicism this time – is well known for his domestic war on terror. Who, better than he, knows how important it is to stand strong in the face of lowly terrorist gangs?

But once again, Mubarak acts according to his principle: That which is hateful to you, go ahead and do to others!

Egypt may have joined the international "Condemn Israel" choir, but he recently set a new standard for suppression of freedom of speech. Aliya Fraj Mujahad, a 15-year-old girl, wrote an end-of-year essay condemning Egypt's strong ties to the United States, and particularly Mujahad's criticism of Mubarak's strong ties to US President Bush.

For her efforts, she was arrested, interrogated for three hours, accused of "membership in a secret organization," and expelled from school.

Newspaper editor Ibrahim Issa was recently sentenced to a year in prison and a large fine. What was his crime? Publishing an article critical of the president. Such articles are acceptable throughout the free world, and in parts of the not-so-free world as well.

In Cairo, however, the piece was considered "insulting to the president in public."

Syria. The UN has awarded one of the world's worst human rights oppressors international standing in its organization.

Bashar Assad, the man behind the assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, recently ordered the arrest of dozens of human rights activists, saying they were no less than a "threat to Syria's national security" and accusing them of "cooperating with enemies of state."

Amongst the detainees were two well-known faces - Author Michel Kilo and lawyer Anwar el-Boni – who dared support the "Damascus-Beirut Declaration" calling for improved relations between the countries.

One might also mention the frequent arrests of "enemies of national security" in the Moslem Brotherhood.

Lebanon. Another enlightened country seeking to give Israel a lesson in how to deal with those suspected of subversion. Recently, a group of lawyers published an opinion accusing the government of holding dozens of political opponents in jail without trial and torturing them mercilessly.

Another self-righteous country to join the list recently was Yemen, a country in which attorney and human rights worker Khaled el-Anasi volunteered to defend Yemenite English-language journalist who belatedly published the Danish cartoons that caused all the furor earlier this year.

El-Anasi was threatened at gunpoint by government security forces and was forced to abandon his plans. Another journalist by the name of Abd el-Mahadr was shot by "anonymous elements" for writing an article critical of the government. And another human rights worker was jailed for three years for expressing "unacceptable" opinions."

It turns out that even if you throw stones despite living in a glass house, you've still got someone to defend you. The UN.

[asim99]

wow...israeli lobby of rfd somehow finds their propaganda is not working so they need another thread defending the terrorist state and justifying its killing of palestinian civilians and children

[asim99]

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Victims+of+Palestinian+Violence+and+Terrorism+sinc .htm

1,117 people have been killed by Palestinian violence and terrorism since September 2000.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

1,084 Israelis and 3,960 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (updated june 21)...which means that almost 4 palestinians have been killed for every israeli....

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/deaths_chart.gif

[asim99]

121 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 734 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000.....which means that almost 5 palestinian children have been killed for every israeli child

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/children_by_year-lg.gif

[asim99]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/injuries.html

30,105 Palestinians and 7,633 Israelis have been injured since September 29, 2000.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/injuries_chart.gif

[d_jedi]

asim, why do you repeatedly post such meaningless statistics?

[poedua]

asim, why do you repeatedly post such meaningless statistics?

asim99 kjeeps citing stats from that website "ifamanericansknew" - run by Alison Weir - a known anti-semite...so once again, asim99 is engaging in relying on the very same propaganda he vilifies others for engaging in. When you have to rely on sites by a known anti-semite and antri-israel commentators like Weir, you realize the compilation of these stats is not being done in anything close to an objective manner. To allege other souces are biased and examples of propaganda and to then have asim99 turn right around and cite Alsion Weir's site is ? Well, its' the classic asim99 ploy of using hypocrisy in debating his point of view ...yet again ......IMO.

As for his statistics. You're right. They are meamingless and tenuous at best. For example, he counts all sucide bombers and Hamas members and other militants as " civilians " killed - which is ridiculous - they are combatents. That, and all the Israeli deaths are targeted murders compared to the Palestinian deaths that came from collateral damge of people caught in military actions. He also seems to think that because more Palestinains have died that this somehow provides proof the Israelis are either more immoral or somehow the "evil "side in this conflict. Fallacious - typical asim99 - reasoning at best.

asmim99 uses head counts of the dead as a basis for his ridiculous logic and fallacious reasoning of the moral high ground held by Palestinians. This makes about as much sense a trying to say the Americans were the " immoral "/ "evil " side in World War II just because there were fewer Americans killed by Germany and Japan than there were Japanese and Germans killed by the Americans. Illogical.

The number of dead on - both sides - is indefensible as any basis for an argument toward the higher " morality " or greater "victimhood " of either side ...both sides are equally to blame and accountable.

[asim99]

asim, why do you repeatedly post such meaningless statistics?
of course, brown arab people's death would not carry the same meaning for a person like you (an i mean, you specifically, d_jedi) as the death a one blonde white person...if that doesn't smack of racism, then i am not sure what does

these numbers come from respectable palestinian and arab sources reported by an impartial website and that kills the apologists of israeli terrorism (not surprisingly an idiot muslim/arab-hater just called the website owner an anti-semite)

[asim99]

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/img/photos/latuff/latuff_thelobby_540.gif

[HoTiCE_]

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

1,084 Israelis and 3,960 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000. (updated june 21)...which means that almost 4 palestinians have been killed for every israeli....


You've got to take out from the Palestinians tally ALL the suicide bombers, even kids,

to whom I have NO SYMPATHIES whatsoever.

[asim99]

You've got to take out from the Palestinians tally ALL the suicide bombers, even kids,

to whom I have NO SYMPATHIES whatsoever.
the numbers do not include any suicide bombers, as pointed out on the webpages i linked

[poedua]

of course, brown arab people's death would not carry the same meaning for a person like you (an i mean, you specifically, d_jedi) as the death a one blonde white person...if that doesn't smack of racism, then i am not sure what does

these numbers come from respectable palestinian and arab sources reported by an impartial website and that kills the apologists of israeli terrorism (not surprisingly an idiot muslim/arab-hater just called the website owner an anti-semite)

" an impartial website "???

LOL.....are you kidding me ? What are you smoking ? The site you cite is run by a one Ms. Alsion Weir ....... a known anti- semite and racist !

earth to asim99...earth to asim99...just because any website you happen to stumble upon happens to share your rather polarized view on a particular issue - i.e in this case, the Mid-East conflict ( including your hatred of Israel's role ) - does not automatically make it "impartial ". The reasoning doesn't follow. Logic 101 .

[poedua]

of course, brown arab people's death would not carry the same meaning for a person like you (an i mean, you specifically, d_jedi) as the death a one blonde white person...if that doesn't smack of racism, then i am not sure what does

these numbers come from respectable palestinian and arab sources reported by an impartial website and that kills the apologists of israeli terrorism (not surprisingly an idiot muslim/arab-hater just called the website owner an anti-semite)

Sorry asim99...Alsion Weir is what she is ....if you don't see it ....you are in denial.

" an idiot muslim/arab-hater " - cmon asim9, name-calling is éven beneath you, just stick to the debate asim99...you're starting to sound like Aison Weir :)

[haxamanis]

Of course!!! Anyone who criticizes the Occupation is anti-semitic and racist etc etc. But if anyone speaks up for the just Palestinian freedom struggle they are branded as terrorist sympathisers

[asim99]

a well-researched book by one of my favorite jewish scholars, on how israeli apologists misuse the label of anti-semitism to suite their defense of the israeli terrorism

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10505.html

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/img/nf_book_chutzpah.jpg
Norman G. Finkelstein
Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History

reviews:

"Finkelstein is absolutely right to assert the absurdity of linking criticism of Israel's horrendous treatment of Palestinians to anti-Semitism. And his documentation of human rights abuses in the Occupied Territories is invaluable."--Tikkun

"Beyond Chutzpah is the most comprehensive, systematic, and well-documented work of its kind. It is one of the harshest--rational and nonemotional--texts about the daily practices of the occupation and colonization of the Palestinian territories by Israel, and it is an excellent demonstration of how and why the blind defenders of Israel, by basing their arguments on false facts and figures, actually bring more damage than gains to their cause."--Baruch Kimmerling, George S. Wise Professor of Sociology, Hebrew University of Jerusalem

"Beyond Chutzpah is a brilliantly illuminating study of the lengths to which some American Jews will go to present Israel in a favorable light. On display are all the sterling qualities for which Finkelstein has become famous: erudition, originality, spark, meticulous attention to detail, intellectual integrity, courage, and formidable forensic skills."--Avi Shlaim, Professor of International Relations, Oxford University

[atforum]

why do we need such posts??

[Paksis]

why do we need such posts??


Why do we need a thread such as this when you know what it will become. >:(

Not knocking anyone but this is like waving crack in front of an addict.

[hagbard]

why do we need such posts??

Ask the OP.

I've found since 911 you're not allowed to point anything negative out regarding Israel. Like this post thread:

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308296

He's lucky he only got locked, I was banned from three sites for posting almost the same points. Yet, all it is is a statement of facts.

[poedua]

a well-researched book by one of my favorite jewish scholars, on how israeli apologists misuse the label of anti-semitism to suite their defense of the israeli terrorism

http://www.ucpress.edu/books/pages/10505.html

http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/img/nf_book_chutzpah.jpg
Norman G. Finkelstein
Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History

reviews:

You're being hypocritical - yet again - asim99 :)

You decry Israeli terrorism yet you yourself support Hamas - an internationally recogniozed terror organisation - and all their policies ( i.e the Hamas Charter ) That's hypcrisy asim99. You either unequivically condem terrorism or you don't..you need to make up your mind.

In addition , you suggest that when someone condems Hamas and Palestinaian terrrorism by militants, in your defense of Paletinian terrorism, you claim those attacks are by the likes of " an idiot muslim/arab-hater "...but yet you vilify the logic of " anti-semitism" regarding discussions of Israeli terroism. . So what you're doing is you're continually condeming positions and logic put forward by others in the debate that you yourself - at the same time - ironocally and paradoxiclaly consistently defend and embrace .

[poedua]

Ask the OP.

I've found since 911 you're not allowed to point anything negative out regarding Israel. Like this post thread:

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308296

He's lucky he only got locked, I was banned from three sites for posting almost the same points. Yet, all it is is a statement of facts.

I suspect, you got banned for communicating your views on the debates surrounding these 'alleged " facts in an inapproprate manner ...and not for simply bringing up any of these alleged " facts " themselves into a debate. In most cases of examples I've seen on RFD, you get banned for making personal attacks and not for simply presenting " alleged " facts.

I think to suggest otherwise ( i.e getting banned for simply raising points ) is somewhat naive and trivializes the criteria for which members get banned on forums ..like RFD.

[asim99]

Ask the OP.

I've found since 911 you're not allowed to point anything negative out regarding Israel. Like this post thread:

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=308296

He's lucky he only got locked, I was banned from three sites for posting almost the same points. Yet, all it is is a statement of facts.
yeah...israeli terrorism would stay unquetionable, if these apologists had their way...

by the way, if one questions that terrorism, he is branded the supporter of hamas

that's the favorite allegation of one arab/muslim hater on this board, who accuses me of supporting hamas even though i have never supported (and never will support) hamas, and rather i have expressed my utter disgust at all the religious fundamentalist forces out there...anyways, some people are awful learners, and i do not indulge in teaching such idiots

[poedua]

yeah...israeli terrorism would stay unquetionable, if these apologists had their way...

by the way, if one questions that terrorism, he is branded the supporter of hamas

that's the favorite allegation of one arab/muslim hater on this board, who accuses me of supporting hamas even though i have never supported (and never will support) hamas, and rather i have expressed my utter disgust at all the religious fundamentalist forces out there...anyways, some people are awful learners, and i do not indulge in teaching such idiots
LOL

[vladislav]

Seriously guys? asim is still not on your ignore lists? Seriously?

[Ojam]

Here, let me help you guys out.....

The Palestinians have elected a terrorist government, and until they change their charter Israel has the right to defend its self against the cowardice terrorists that are Hamas.

But the Palestinians wouldn't need to use such tactics if they had proper weapons, the United States has decided to meddle in the affairs of the area and continues to give the Israeli terrorist state weapons to use against the Palestinians.

Well if the Palestinians just laid down their arms their would be peace in the region.

Why should the Palestinians lay down their arms when Israel keeps firing rockets into their territory and has taken over parts of Palestine using their settlers?

The Israelis don't kill innocent people on purpose, only by accident. Because the terrorist scum hide behind them in hospitals

Yeah, sure, the terrorist state of Israel just says it’s by accident, the only people we have to confirm if it was or wasn’t the Israelis.

Israel needs to protect its self from all the Arabs in the region, look what happened 50 years ago. The Arabs started it, its up to them to call for peace, Egypt has done it, why can't any others?

They are still occupying Palestine land, they need to withdraw, since they are supposedly the "moral authority" in the region, shouldn't they be the ones to take the first steps to peace?

The Arabs don't want peace, look what they did to the peace offer in 2000, they just turned it down, and didn't even make a counter offer.

That offer was BS, anybody could see that, you are obviously too bias to see it.

Well you’re a smelly terrorist supporter and anti-Semite.

Well your mom is a slut and likes donkeys.

End, and Lock.

[asim99]

Seriously guys? asim is still not on your ignore lists? Seriously?
why just me, and not lip/podeau/tx/hankey et al. :confused:

[asim99]

btw, good post ojam...i'll stop my posts when people with impartial views like you control the debate...sadly, i doubt if that will happen anytime soon...

[ElChico]

Geez, another one? Their both doing bad things, but nobody asks Why. Why do Hamas attack Isreali check points? Why does Isreal bomb government offices? Why is another thread needed? I'm sure there are Anti-Arab and Anti-Isreali boards that y'all can use instread of hating on RFD. Can we get a LOCK?

[lip1978]

I'm about to report my own thread :)
Ryan locked the anti-Israel thread after I started this one, and I appreciate that.
This thread was started in large part because of that thread, and in that respect this one should be closed as well.

And Ojam, that was funny :)

[Txiasaeia]

why just me, and not lip/podeau/tx/hankey et al. :confused:

Who, me? I'm the poster boy for impartiality! ;)