Screwed by a dealer - Please help

[jack_b27]

Would appreciate any help from fellow RFD'ers.

I bought a 2001 Hyundai Sonata from a dealer in Toronto with 90K kms on it + 2 years warranty. The body of the car looks brand new and so does the engine.

The car ran fine for a few days but then started to lose acceleration (power) and was basically unusable on highways, and wouldn't go past 70km/hr.

I took it back to the same dealer.. who fixed it, but same problem happened again the same day. Next, I decided to take it to a hyundai dealer (since I hoped that the car was still covered under Hyundai's 10yr 100,000 km warranty)

This is where I realized that the dealer had screwed me. The mechanics at Hyundai told me that the engine in the car was not the right engine (2.7Volts instead of 2.6 Volts) and was probably a scrapyard replacement, and there was nothing they could do to fix it. They said they wouldn't even accept a trade-in because my car was basically a piece of junk.

I took it back to the dealer.. got in to an argument, but he basically told me that it's not his responsibility since he only buys from auctions and resells.


My question is -- what can I do?

1) The dealer sold me the car saftied / and e-tested saying that it had 90k mileage. Now, I think that the body has 90k's and the scarpyard engine probably has a lot more. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

2) Also, I think the e-test that he has done is fake since it doesn't show up on driveclean's website (it's been 2 weeks) . The history shoes two tests from last year, both of which failed. Can the dealer get in to trouble for getting a fake e-test certificate.

3) I did run a carfax report on the car before I bought it and carfax failed to show any problems in the car history (What a waste of 20 bucks). I heard that carfax has some sort of guarantee against their reports, what can I do about that?

[sportsfan99]

Buying used cars is a gamble.There is not alot you can do.

[jetway1212]

Buying used cars is a gamble.There is not alot you can do.

WTF are you talking about? If you can post anything useful then dont even bother.


Back to the topic, you still have legal option to do.

First if the info of history of the car (from auction) was not disclosed prior of the purchase, you can still sue them. Moreoever, the certificate is fake and you can prove it. I recommend you to file a claim to BBB and in the meanwhile file a small claim court at the city where the purchase took place.


Yes there are some changes now in used car business, you can use lemon law as well. But in this case i think you can just sue the dealer for scamming. Those dealers usually lost their license due to cases like this and i really encourage you to take the lawsuit.

I think you have lots of chance to win. Remember the sooner you file the claim the better chance you will win. Also have a trusty/independent mechanic who can provide you a fully report of the vehicle's condition.

This is not a private sale, and certainly not an "as-is" sale.

Good luck

[jason9945]

This is where I realized that the dealer had screwed me. The mechanics at Hyundai told me that the engine in the car was not the right engine (2.7Volts instead of 2.6 Volts) and was probably a scrapyard replacement, and there was nothing they could do to fix it. They said they wouldn't even accept a trade-in because my car was basically a piece of junk.


2.6L vs 2.7L you mean?


Take them to court? Contact that guy on the news who does the underdog stories? Fight them for sure!

[yatko]

Also contact APA

[aquariaguy]

OMG take them to court as soon as possible. Let us know how this story turns out. Good luck. Used car dealers suck!!

[jack_b27]

WTF are you talking about? If you can post anything useful then dont even bother.


Back to the topic, you still have legal option to do.

First if the info of history of the car (from auction) was not disclosed prior of the purchase, you can still sue them. Moreoever, the certificate is fake and you can prove it. I recommend you to file a claim to BBB and in the meanwhile file a small claim court at the city where the purchase took place.


Yes there are some changes now in used car business, you can use lemon law as well. But in this case i think you can just sue the dealer for scamming. Those dealers usually lost their license due to cases like this and i really encourage you to take the lawsuit.

I think you have lots of chance to win. Remember the sooner you file the claim the better chance you will win. Also have a trusty/independent mechanic who can provide you a fully report of the vehicle's condition.

This is not a private sale, and certainly not an "as-is" sale.

Good luck


Thanks... much appreciated!!!

I am meeting with the dealer again tomorrow to discuss another solution. If that doesn't work out I will definetly go to small claims court.

Btw - how does the lemon law apply in ontraio?

[nano]

Thanks... much appreciated!!!

I am meeting with the dealer again tomorrow to discuss another solution. If that doesn't work out I will definetly go to small claims court.

Btw - how does the lemon law apply in ontraio?
i think the lemon law only applies to new cars but i could be wrong..

[jack_b27]

2.6L vs 2.7L you mean?


Take them to court? Contact that guy on the news who does the underdog stories? Fight them for sure!


No actually it is a 2.7 L engine instead of 2.5 L. The 2001 Sonata V6 is a 2.5L.
2002 and newer models had the 2.7 L engine.

I know I got a more powerful engine but I don't know what kind of mileage it has (how can I find out??). What I am pretty sure of is that such "custom" installations usually result in all kinds of problems down the line === $$$ in repairs.

[ichpen]

No actually it is a 2.7 L engine instead of 2.5 L. The 2001 Sonata V6 is a 2.5L.
2002 and newer models had the 2.7 L engine.

I know I got a more powerful engine but I don't know what kind of mileage it has (how can I find out??). What I am pretty sure of is that such "custom" installations usually result in all kinds of problems down the line === $$$ in repairs.

Replacing engines is not all too uncommon even in new cars. I assume the replacement was done under warranty by Hyundai so I really don't see why Hyundai is telling you this is a piece of junk....

Unless the engine/car was not maintained under warranty conditions and as a result the engine blew.

[jason9945]

No actually it is a 2.7 L engine instead of 2.5 L. The 2001 Sonata V6 is a 2.5L.
2002 and newer models had the 2.7 L engine.

I know I got a more powerful engine but I don't know what kind of mileage it has (how can I find out??). What I am pretty sure of is that such "custom" installations usually result in all kinds of problems down the line === $$$ in repairs.

Not my point, you said volt instead of litre. But it doesnt matter now.

Get busy fighting them.

[dealhunting]

Replacing engines is not all too uncommon even in new cars. I assume the replacement was done under warranty by Hyundai so I really don't see why Hyundai is telling you this is a piece of junk....

Unless the engine/car was not maintained under warranty conditions and as a result the engine blew.

I don't think he bought the car from a Hyundai dealer. Probably one of those shady private used car lots. Also, a factory dealer would not be putting in used parts while the car was still covered under the factory warranty. If they did, they would not be a factory dealer for long....

Talk to a lawyer and get some sound legal advise before too much time has gone by....

[belgiangenius]

Would appreciate any help from fellow RFD'ers.

I bought a 2001 Hyundai Sonata from a dealer in Toronto with 90K kms on it + 2 years warranty. The body of the car looks brand new and so does the engine.

The car ran fine for a few days but then started to lose acceleration (power) and was basically unusable on highways, and wouldn't go past 70km/hr.

I took it back to the same dealer.. who fixed it, but same problem happened again the same day. Next, I decided to take it to a hyundai dealer (since I hoped that the car was still covered under Hyundai's 10yr 100,000 km warranty)

This is where I realized that the dealer had screwed me. The mechanics at Hyundai told me that the engine in the car was not the right engine (2.7Volts instead of 2.6 Volts) and was probably a scrapyard replacement, and there was nothing they could do to fix it. They said they wouldn't even accept a trade-in because my car was basically a piece of junk.

I took it back to the dealer.. got in to an argument, but he basically told me that it's not his responsibility since he only buys from auctions and resells.


My question is -- what can I do?

1) The dealer sold me the car saftied / and e-tested saying that it had 90k mileage. Now, I think that the body has 90k's and the scarpyard engine probably has a lot more. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

2) Also, I think the e-test that he has done is fake since it doesn't show up on driveclean's website (it's been 2 weeks) . The history shoes two tests from last year, both of which failed. Can the dealer get in to trouble for getting a fake e-test certificate.

3) I did run a carfax report on the car before I bought it and carfax failed to show any problems in the car history (What a waste of 20 bucks). I heard that carfax has some sort of guarantee against their reports, what can I do about that?


Get a lawyer and sue him. You'll likely win. Or try small claims court.

This sounds to me like textbook misrepresentation. I think it's safe to say that when a car is presented as being in such great condition, you have the right to expect that it has the proper engine in it.

Oh yeah, and please post the name of this dealer for us.

[cluless]

Go back to the dealership and talk to them once more. If they still fail to acknowledge that anything's wrong, tell them that you will be taking legal action against them.

Make sure that you document everything, i.e, time and date and what the conversation was regarding.

Call up a couple of lawyers and ask for some advice. Usually the first consultation is free.

I had a friend that was sort of in a similar situation. His gf brought a 2001 Honda Civic from a dealership. One day, they were walking back towards the car parked in the parking lot and he noticed that there was a slight colour variation on the back by the fender and the rear window. He looked under the car and noticed the welds!?!? He bought the car back to the dealership and told them that there was something wrong with the car; pointed out the problems. The dealership "claimed" that they didn't know anything about the car. Long story short, the dealership replaced the car with a brand new one ...

Good luck and I hope your story has a happy ending.

[DragonZealot]

Go back to the dealer and ask for a full refund because of misrepresentation and failure of disclosure of the car. If dealer refused go to http://www.ucda.org and see if the dealer is a member of UCDA, if yes, use their mediation service.

If no, then go to http://www.omvic.on.ca/ to make sure the dealer is a registered vehicle dealer, if not, OMVIC will lay a charge on them. If they are registered dealer, complain to OMVIC about their business practice for possible violation of the code of ethics.

Settle with nothing else but a full refund.

[jetway1212]

Go back to the dealer and ask for a full refund because of misrepresentation and failure of disclosure of the car. If dealer refused go to http://www.ucda.org and see if the dealer is a member of UCDA, if yes, use their mediation service.

If no, then go to http://www.omvic.on.ca/ to make sure the dealer is a registered vehicle dealer, if not, OMVIC will lay a charge on them. If they are registered dealer, complain to OMVIC about their business practice for possible violation of the code of ethics.

Settle with nothing else but a full refund.


I would like to bold that statement as its what i wanted to say.

I think the OP was hoping to settle it with some sort of refund. I would never keep the car, you bought it to use not to fix.

[mchowster]

If you bought it from a used shady dealer, you are pretty much screwed,

they do not have to tell you anything, unless you specifically asked them.

Of course they have to tell you that the car was in an accident but, that is pretty much it. You have to be careful with used cars. Dealership will not help you cuz some warranties r not transferable. I would never buy a used car, you r playing with your life and other ppl's lives. Like you said, its not usable on highway or 70 kph or up. I suggest you junk it and buy a new car. And dont buy a freaking KOREAN! CAR!!!!!!

[mau108]

If you bought it from a used shady dealer, you are pretty much screwed,

they do not have to tell you anything, unless you specifically asked them.

Of course they have to tell you that the car was in an accident but, that is pretty much it. You have to be careful with used cars. Dealership will not help you cuz some warranties r not transferable. I would never buy a used car, you r playing with your life and other ppl's lives. Like you said, its not usable on highway or 70 kph or up. I suggest you junk it and buy a new car. And dont buy a freaking KOREAN! CAR!!!!!!


what a display of retardedness (if thats a word lol)

a. Warranties are transferable, as the warranty from the manufacturer is for the VIN and not for the person selling/buying.
b. Nothing wrong in buying a used car, just be smart about it
c. Korean cars are getting alot better and have come a long way, they do not deserve to be bashed (I still wouldn't pick one up but they are pretty decent)

[DragonZealot]

Thanks... much appreciated!!!

I am meeting with the dealer again tomorrow to discuss another solution. If that doesn't work out I will definetly go to small claims court.

Btw - how does the lemon law apply in ontraio?

First do not disclose the name of the dealership as someone requested as this matter is still in progress.

There is no lemon law in Ontario, at least not for cars.

Request a full refund, be polite, consistant and stand firm.

[ichpen]

OK there's still something that bothers me about this. If old engine blew up why did the previous owner not claim it under warranty and chose to pay for a used engine??

Two scenarios that pop up are that the previous owner was at fault (drained oil from engine then drove off, abused engine) or the car was branded i.e. a write-off. Can't think of any other reason irrespective of where/how the car was purchased.

So, question is, has the OP checked the vehicle history (carfax) and is the vehicle branded (on your registration (green) papers does it say BRAND: NONE)???

[superdeals]

Buying used cars is a gamble.There is not alot you can do.
Don't talk rubbish and hog the bandwidth!! :mad:

[belgiangenius]

First do not disclose the name of the dealership as someone requested as this matter is still in progress.


...and why on earth not?!

[Narci]

I suggest you junk it and buy a new car. And dont buy a freaking KOREAN! CAR!!!!!!


What does this have to do with the OP's situation? This could have happened to any brand of car.

[DragonZealot]

...and why on earth not?!

The OP is in the process of resolving a dispute. Disclosing the details of the other party is not going to help and may put the OP in an unfavourable position, possibily jeopardizing any settlement that could have been offered.

One incentive for the dealership to settle is that the case would be contained and the dealer can continue it business as usual. Opening this to the public takes away this incentive.

[dodo]

The OP is in the process of resolving a dispute. Disclosing the details of the other party is not going to help and may put the OP in an unfavourable position, possibily jeopardizing any settlement that could have been offered.

One incentive for the dealership to settle is that the case would be contained and the dealer can continue it business as usual. Opening this to the public takes away this incentive.
very well said!!

[DragonZealot]

Just some more info hope you would find this useful.


Ontario Sale of Goods Act R.S.O. 1990, CHAPTER S.1.15:
Where the buyer, expressly or by implication, makes known to the seller the particular purpose for which the goods are required so as to show that the buyer relies on the seller's skill or judgment, and the goods are of a description that it is in the course of the seller's business to supply (whether the seller is the manufacturer or not), there is an implied condition that the goods will be reasonably fit for such purpose.

If the car is not drivable on Ontario roads this would possibily be an violation from the dealer to the above act. I have seen cases using this and the consumer won. Consult a lawer if you want to take them to court.

Re: fake e-test certificate you should contact Ministry of Environment to report this.

[belgiangenius]

The OP is in the process of resolving a dispute. Disclosing the details of the other party is not going to help and may put the OP in an unfavourable position, possibily jeopardizing any settlement that could have been offered.

One incentive for the dealership to settle is that the case would be contained and the dealer can continue it business as usual. Opening this to the public takes away this incentive.

Wrong. The incentive remains. The dealer can either be known as a crook who refused to give a refund upon realizing that the vehicle he sold was not up to snuff, or an honourable businessman who immediately rectifies problems brought to his attention. As a customer, I have no problem with the fact that he sold a used car he may not have realized had problems - what I care about is how he behaves after the fact.

[DragonZealot]

Wrong. The incentive remains.

Read this:
One incentive for the dealership to settle is that the case would be contained and the dealer can continue it business as usual. Opening this to the public takes away this incentive.

The incentive is "the case would be contained and the dealer can continue it business as usual". So you mean if the case is know to public, everyone knows their place is full of scams and frauds they can still business as usual, customer will still come :confused:

It is quite trival when negoiating something keep the public outside unitl an agreement is reached.

Your other suggestion to hire a lawyer and sue should be the last resort cause it costs time and money and there are uncertainties. Why pay the lawyer if this can be settled or escalated :?:

[VivienM]

Just some more info hope you would find this useful.


They may want to look into the Consumer Protection Act, too...

Consulting a lawyer would be a good idea, if only because a threatening letter from a lawyer might scare this dealer. :)

[baymoe]

Most important of all, where did you buy it from?

[sucka]

You might want to seek the advice of Mohammed Bouchama, he's the founder of Car Help Canada who also stars in the Auto Talk show on CP24 (Citynews) ......... very very smart man. He's very helpful, knows his stuff and can definitely point you to the right direction in dealing with this unfortunate situation. Good luck.

Car Help Canada Website (http://www.carhelpcanada.com)

[fly]

Yeah, I second that you shouldn't settle for anything less than a refund.

Before you take them to Small Claims Court, file a complaint with Consumer & Business Services -- they'll assign someone to mediate your claim. If the dealer refuses, then take them to SCC and make it clear to the judge they refused mediation.

http://www.cbs.gov.on.ca/compform/english/complaint.asp

Although you don't need to know the law when dealing with CBS, it does help to know the law is behind you, so here's the link to the Consumer Protection Act:

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Statutes/English/02c30_e.htm

[jack_b27]

I was able to resolve this problem directly with the dealer and exchanged the car for a 2003 Ford Tauras (90k, fully loaded). I did have to pay the difference between the costs but am overall quite happy with the deal.

I find the Tauras to be a much better car than the sonata (although the sonata was easier to drive)

Thanks to all the guys that offered their help. Much apprecited!!

Please PM me if you'd like to know the dealer's name.

Going to court was really not an option for me, as I couldn't afford to take any time away from work at this point.

[Hula]

Direct the dealer/sales person to this web link, and tell him everyone is watching.

Word of mouth is king. If he screwed you, you are in the position to do so in a legal manner as you are posting a "personal" experience.

I'm sure the dealer will realize screwing someone for a quick sale, clearly isn't worth the negative word of mouth he will receive as a result of his questionable sales tactics.

I personally am looking at a Hyundai now and would do anything and everything possible to avoid this guy assuming all facts shared are accurate.

[royaljelly]

I totally agree that you should post the name/address/tel of the dealer on this forum. There's no reason you should be protecting their identity (now that you've got your replacement car), especially after knowing how they tried to screw you over so badly by selling you such a product. At least your experience can help prevent another RFD'er from getting scammed.

Enjoy your Taurus!

[Mystix]

Chances are someone else is goign to have to suffer the same expereince as you. I predict them tweaking the car and putting it back on sale.

[ah802]

Chances are someone else is going to have to suffer the same experience as you. I predict them tweaking the car and putting it back on sale.Oh for sure....this dealer is not going to call the scrap yard. these guys know all the tricks and would sell their own mother a lemon.

CarFax reports what it knows.. and that's not a heck of a lot. When they had a freebee... I did my own car and it failed to note major efforts reported to DT.

I think the final cap in this thread should have been a judgment in small claims court (in the GTA the limit is up to $12,000 now) or even a civil case. There was a missrepresentation of the goods bought (motor didn't match the car) and this should have been disclosed. Many cars are now going to the scrapyard with ZERO rust. Nothing beats having your own mechanic look at your purchase.

Think how long it takes you to save $10,000.... isn't this worth a few days shopping/protecting? No one else is going to look after you better than yourself, and certainly not the seller... and I'm not your mother.

[jack_b27]

Sorry guys, the dealer made every reasonable effort to help me out here, so it wouldn't be fair for me to bad-mouth him.

He genuinely sounded like he didn't know about the scrapyard engine. It's a small dealership and I wouldn't want to hurt his business badly by posting the name here. He even took me to the place where he bought it (a bigger dealership) and kept on insisting that he knew nothing about the engine.

It all ended in him offering me a drink and me accidently breaking a few of his wine glasses. I didn't have to pay for it either :) He thought it would bring good luck for the both of us.

The vin for the car however is: KMHWF25V61A424945

Stay clear of this VIN. Carfax/Carproof does not report anything against this VIN.


I'll post back in a few months on how the Tauraus is doing. As for now I am absolutely enjoying it.

[FerrisB]

Go back to the dealer and ask for a full refund because of misrepresentation and failure of disclosure of the car. If dealer refused go to http://www.ucda.org and see if the dealer is a member of UCDA, if yes, use their mediation service.

If no, then go to http://www.omvic.on.ca/ to make sure the dealer is a registered vehicle dealer, if not, OMVIC will lay a charge on them. If they are registered dealer, complain to OMVIC about their business practice for possible violation of the code of ethics.

Settle with nothing else but a full refund.

Bingo. If they are a registered dealer they are REQUIRED by law to take back the car within 12 months and fully refund the money if the car was misrepresented in any way, even if they truly didn't know. Call someone at OMVIC immediately if you haven't already. You'll need to send a registered letter to the dealership.

[st7860]

Buying used cars is a gamble.There is not alot you can do.

exactly. its a lot safer to get a certified used car from a dealer.

[bunga]

certified used really doesn't mean as much as the commercials will lead you to believe. Do expect to pay a premium for one though

exactly. its a lot safer to get a certified used car from a dealer.