Will multiculturalism fall apart due to radical Islam?

[CroatianGuy]

Please note - I am not making this up. This is another reason why I am afraid of the ramifications of the terrorist incident in Canada.
This was on CBC Newsworld and I am relaying as best as I can what was said.

Mark Kelley
8:35 am CBC Newsworld
Learn about mar - http://www.cbc.ca/disclosure/hosts.html

Mark Kelley reports on what Europeans have learned - that multiculturalism does not work. As a result of the terrorist fears tolerance will decrease and we may start to have forced integration. The terrorists have succeeded in changing our society. The following are some key points mentioned by Mark.

Multiculturalism does not work in Europe.
Radical Islam does not want to integrate.
Forced integration is happening in Europe
Forced Dutch language and culture classes
Britian citizenship classes.
We can't all just live together anymore.
We can't live in total separateness and isolation becuase that can lead to exteremism.
We are a nation of tolerance but fear changes everything
Once fear comes in tolerance disappears.
Even the burqua appears to be a political statement
Political Correctness be damned.
Tolerance is a weakness.

Europeans tell us that Canada will learn what they have learned.

"The Enemy Within"
Airs tonight and Thursday

Here is what I would like to discuss; How to we protect our multicutural nature? Or should we follow the European model of forced integration?



Please note - I have white friends and black friends. I have Jewish friends and Arab friends. I have Liberal friends and I have Conservative friends. I even have some Serbian friends. I judge people by their character rather than their religion.

[AirBosh]

Yea I watched that last night. Very interesting. Tonight on CBC newsworld they are going to discuss further how other European countries are dealing with multiculturalism after 07/07/05. The clip when he was interviewing the Holland gov't was interesting.

[Bullseye]

Canada and the U.S. are different than Europe, people there are much more ethnocentric. We are a new-ish country in comparison, and we've been multicultural to some degree since the very beginning, I don't see that changing because of a small minority of radicals.

[CroatianGuy]

Canada and the U.S. are different than Europe, people there are much more ethnocentric. We are a new-ish country in comparison, and we've been multicultural to some degree since the very beginning, I don't see that changing because of a small minority of radicals.

Holland was actually one of the most multi-cultural nations in the world. Holland has a reputation for being extremely open and liberal in social thinking and social policy. Holland's history as a trading nation led it to understand and respect everyone in the world. Europe has much more "mature" societies and cultures than we do in Canada. If this can happen in Holland then can it happen here?

Yet after the killing of the Theo van Gogh the Dutch culture of acceptance started to change.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)

[Blunt]

No, multiculturalism is here to stay in Canada.

What I do see happening is that Islam-linked cultures will start to be shunned in society, .. rejected. While other cultures will continue to flourish in Canada. To be honest, Islamics-culture will be looked down upon until they can get rid of the stigma of terrorism.

There are no major issues with other cultures.
Islam is creating a problem for itself with such extremists.

[Bullseye]

Holland was actually one of the most multi-cultural nations in the world. Holland has a reputation for being extremely open and liberal in social thinking and social policy. Holland's history as a trading nation led it to understand and respect everyone in the world. Europe has much more "mature" societies and cultures than we do in Canada. If this can happen in Holland then can it happen here?

Yet after the killing of the Theo van Gogh the Dutch culture of acceptance started to change.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_van_Gogh_(film_director)

I disagree completely. Holland's reputation as a tolerant society has never truly extended to non-white cultures, they have always been isolated in their own communities. The government itself has made lots of multicultural policies over the years, but a large portion of the Dutch population harbours long held inherrently racist beliefs, and this has prevented the type of multiculturalism we've seen here and in the U.S.

[rayesyn]

easier said than done, however i totally agree with what you're saying


Please note - I have white friends and black friends. I have Jewish friends and Arab friends. I have Liberal friends and I have Conservative friends. I even have some Serbian friends. I judge people by their character rather than their religion.

[CodecX81]

Things across the ocean are way different ways of life over here. We're a country based on diversity and immigration... The "old world" has been a hotspot since the medieval times of conquering.

The worst thing we can do is create a divide. Everyone just wants to play on the same field, there should not be second class citizenry just because they are of a different religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_other_religions

[Rehan]

What I do see happening is that Islam-linked cultures will start to be shunned in society, .. rejected. While other cultures will continue to flourish in Canada. To be honest, Islamics-culture will be looked down upon until they can get rid of the stigma of terrorism. "start to"? it started about 5 years ago...

There are no major issues with other cultures.The black community in Toronto is facing a similar problem...a few really bad apples are spoiling the perception of the whole bunch.

[brwnhaggler]

How would multiculturism die??? It's a phenomenon that is beyond legislation. We are not Europe, and completely agree with bulleyes in that they are highly ethnocentric. I whole heartily agree that multiculturism is a double edged sword, but it's a path that we have gone down(consciously on unconsciously) and there is no turning back. Let's keep into perspective that the vast majority of Muslim are peace faring people just trying to have a go at life, kinda like the rest of us. We seem to use the minority to represent the whole.

[skanji]

The black community in Toronto is facing a similar problem...a few really bad apples are spoiling the perception of the whole bunch.

Well then the problem should be attributed to the 'bunch'...

[brwnhaggler]

to the 'bunch' of black people, or the bunch of everybody else???

Well then the problem should be attributed to the 'bunch'...

[skanji]

to the 'bunch' of black people, or the bunch of everybody else???

I meant to say that the problem should be attributed to individuals who allow the few rotten apples who spoil the bunch.

I don't feel that a few of any minority actions dictate who they are to me (Americans, Germans, Muslims, etc...)

[Blunt]

"start to"? it started about 5 years ago...

The black community in Toronto is facing a similar problem...a few really bad apples are spoiling the perception of the whole bunch.

To be honest, for myself, I didn't Islamic extremism a problem when Sept 11 happened. Now with this case of the group 17, I am now starting to be afraid. For me, this started on Saturday when the arrest started. Before then, I think I had a fairly open mind.

[Roninvancouver]

Please note - I am not making this up.

You seemed to have ignored the request to reply this question about your statements in another thread so please answer:

You said that when the Serbs, Mulims and Croats had their civil war that no "foreigners" were killed and it was "kept in the family". That's a pretty selective and self serving time frame.

During WW2, the Croatians were allied with the Nazis and conducted brutality on a scale which shocked even Hitler's SS. Croatian "Ustasha" killed women, children and any allied prisoners they could find. English, Canadian and Americans were all killed by the Croats. In fact it was the Serbians who were allies of the West, not the Croats.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Pavelic


Should we be afraid of Croatians since they were extremists and threatened the security of the free world just over 60 years ago?

[poedua]

Please note - I am not making this up. This is another reason why I am afraid of the ramifications of the terrorist incident in Canada.
This was on CBC Newsworld and I am relaying as best as I can what was said.

Mark Kelley
8:35 am CBC Newsworld
Learn about mar - http://www.cbc.ca/disclosure/hosts.html

Mark Kelley reports on what Europeans have learned - that multiculturalism does not work. As a result of the terrorist fears tolerance will decrease and we may start to have forced integration. The terrorists have succeeded in changing our society. The following are some key points mentioned by Mark.

Multiculturalism does not work in Europe.
Radical Islam does not want to integrate.
Forced integration is happening in Europe
Forced Dutch language and culture classes
Britian citizenship classes.
We can't all just live together anymore.
We can't live in total separateness and isolation becuase that can lead to exteremism.
We are a nation of tolerance but fear changes everything
Once fear comes in tolerance disappears.
Even the burqua appears to be a political statement
Political Correctness be damned.
Tolerance is a weakness.

Europeans tell us that Canada will learn what they have learned.

"The Enemy Within"
Airs tonight and Thursday

Here is what I would like to discuss; How to we protect our multicutural nature? Or should we follow the European model of forced integration?



Please note - I have white friends and black friends. I have Jewish friends and Arab friends. I have Liberal friends and I have Conservative friends. I even have some Serbian friends.

I judge people by their character rather than their religion.



You said on an earlier thread, and I quote .....


" I ask Muslims in Canada to become more Canadian "

....why must Muslims change in your view ?

Particularly, if in fact - as you claim - you " judge people by their character rather than their religion " ?

Doesn't that statement of yours in fact focus on religion and not character ? i.e Muslims as not being " Canadian " enough ( whatever that means ) ?

[konfusion666]

Should we be afraid of Croatians since they were extremists and threatened the security of the free world just over 60 years ago?

Definitely.

[brwnhaggler]

Ah so the rest of us right?? Because if we look at this another way, we allow those few to represent the whole. To say it's their problem is simplistic, it's our problem, it's just we don't like to say that.

Completely agree with your second point.

I meant to say that the problem should be attributed to individuals who allow the few rotten apples who spoil the bunch.

I don't feel that a few of any minority actions dictate who they are to me (Americans, Germans, Muslims, etc...)

[asim99]

Should we be afraid of Croatians since they were extremists and threatened the security of the free world just over 60 years ago?
yup..
and it's scary to see some radical croatians spreading fear in our society

[Bullseye]

An example of what I mean about the difference between Canada and Europe;

I live on a street with about 25 houses, my neighbours are of Caribbean, South Asian, Chinese, Middle Eastern, and Latin American descent. Probably half are typical white Canadian borns like myself. Everyone gets along, people chatting in the street every night in summer, having BBQ's, etc, where people are from or how they are dressed makes little difference. This isn't the big city, either, I'm 70km from Toronto.

I've travelled in Europe extensively, and it's almost unheard of there to see this kind of cultural intermingling happening, even in big cities. Many Europeans are very nationalist, and they feel that allowing outsiders into their culture (differentiating from country) will dilute it, where as Canada has been a melting pot since the beginning, and our culture is in a continuous state of flux, so the born-heres are less threatened by percieved changes.

[Rehan]

To be honest, for myself, I didn't Islamic extremism a problem when Sept 11 happened. Now with this case of the group 17, I am now starting to be afraid. For me, this started on Saturday when the arrest started. Before then, I think I had a fairly open mind. I guess it's because when it's hits 'closer to home', people start looking at it a little deeper.

This same extremism is the cause of civil mini-wars in Pakistan and now in Iraq (even though those societies are not "multicultural"). The general public in the west has no interest in what has been going on over there, so when the ugly head of extremism rears its head in their backyards it seems to them to be a shock.

[konfusion666]

yup..
and it's scary to see some radical croatians spreading fear in our society

I think we should commence with deporting these former (and current) Neo-Nazi's from our society!

Much of the population of the Independent State of Croatia was not Croat. It had significant populations of Serbs (about 19% of the population of Croatia at the time, over 30% of the population of NDH), Muslims (the largest population group of Bosnia at the time, and over 10% of the population of NDH), Germans, Hungarians and others. The Catholics (mainly Croats, Germans and Magyars) constituted just over 50% of the 6.3 million population. However, today's Bosniaks, at the time, were not allowed to acknowledge Bosniak nationality but were politically directed to be called "Croatians of Islamic faith". Dr. Mile Budak, politican and minister of the NDH - also a Croatian writer - immediately took the oppourtunity to proclaim the Muslims as "Brothers". Many Croatians agree with the idea that the majority of modern Bosniaks are actually Croats who were converted to Islam during the invasion of Turks in the 15th Century. Many Bosniaks consider this idea offensive and a product of Croatian nationalism.

Many Bosniaks accepted the NDH (in some cases were forced to accept it) and immediately became involved. The most notorious of Islamic Ustase divisions was the SS Handžari. In respect to the soldiers of Muslim faith, a mosque was built in Zagreb - Croatia's capital city - known as "Poglavnikova Dzamija" or Poglavnik's Mosque.

The Ustase almost immediately enacted racial laws that reflected the acceptance of the ideology of Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, with an emphasis placed on Croatian national issues.


1941 "Ž" metal plate for Jewish houses (from Židov=Jew), removed from post office in Osijek.The first "Legal order for the defence of the people and the state" dated April 17, 1941 ordered the death penalty for "infringement of the honour and vital interests of the Croatian people and the survival of the Independent State of Croatia". It was soon followed by the "Legal order of races" and the "Legal order of the protection of Aryan blood and the honour of the Croatian people" dated April 30, 1941, as well as the "Order of the creation and definition of the racial-political committee" dated June 4, 1941. The enforcement of these legal acts was done not only through normal courts but also new out-of-order courts as well as mobile courts-martial with extended jurisdictions.

The normal jails could no longer sustain the rate of new inmates and the Ustaša government started preparing the grounds what would become the Jasenovac concentration camp by July 1941. The regime would eventually form concentration camps in eleven different locations.

The Ustaše started conducting a deliberate campaign of mass murder, deportation and forced religious conversion in an attempt to remove the undesirables: Serbs, Jews, Gypsies, dissenting Croats and others. The atrocities against non-Croats started on April 27, 1941 when a newly formed unit of Ustaša army massacred the largely Serbian thorp of Gudovac near Bjelovar.

The Jasenovac complex of five concentration camps would become the place of murder of several hundred thousand people (some estimate that this camp was the third largest camp of WWII); The overall Ustaša death count is estimated at around 400,000 people, but all written records were destroyed to cover it up.


CroatianGuy's ancestors were responsible for the deaths of 400k people!

This "fertilizer gang" is nothing compared to them.

[skanji]

Canada is a beacon for multiculturalism and pluralism in the world. The model Canada has could be bottled up and sold to prevent conflicts in other parts of the world.

Turn our back on this fundamental part that makes Canada unique? No chance (for me anyways) and I hope most Canadians....

[afong56]

if multiculturalism fails in canada, canada will fail. without multiculturalism, canada's identity ceases to exist, imho.
we are a nation of immigrants. if we stop respecting the cultures of the immigrants that built this country--and continue to make it the country we know--then canada itself will cease to exist.
if we give into fear and ignorance, then our country will divide into 'us' and 'them'--we, as rational, proud patriots should guard against that fate.

[asim99]

I think we should commence with deporting these former (and current) Neo-Nazi's from our society!



CroatianGuy's ancestors were responsible for the deaths of 400k people!

This "fertilizer gang" is nothing compared to them.
i think it'll be fair to ask him to be more canadian...because i see not much canadiana in his posts

[Rehan]

if multiculturalism fails in canada, canada will fail. without multiculturalism, canada's identity ceases to exist, imho.
we are a nation of immigrants. if we stop respecting the cultures of the immigrants that built this country--and continue to make it the country we know--then canada itself will cease to exist.
if we give into fear and ignorance, then our country will divide into 'us' and 'them'--we, as rational, proud patriots should guard against that fate.
I think what some people would want is to replace multiculturalism with euroculturalism.

[danfromwaterloo]

We must seperate, as a nation, the concept of the "war on terror" from the concept of "the war on radical Islam".

The world is filled with radicals. Christian. Jewish. Muslim. Buddhist. Every spectrum has its own radical element. We are not without our own terrorist groups in white Judeo-Christian North America. Timothy McVeigh is a good example of that.

Yes, in recent years, radical islam has been responsible for terrorist attacks. This goes without saying. What needs to happen is that Islam itself needs to lead the fight against these elements. The optics of Islamic society (in North America) is that they haven't really done anything, one way or the other, to lead the cause against these groups. This is, in large part, the reason why these racial stereotypes are being heaped upon Islamic culture.

Muslim people throughout the world are being persecuted based on the actions of the (continuing) minority. In order to combat this persecution, Islam needs to fight harder than anybody to remove this. They need to be the flag carriers, and not simply the consenting party.

This is not limited to Islam: all cultures and ethnicities need to combat their apparent weaknesses in order to remove their prejudices. Let me elaborate: in the states, an overwhelming majority of inmates are African-American. Barring racism and inequal justice (which I refuse to believe is the reason for this imbalance), the African American community needs to not only address this issue, but be the leader in correcting it.

I feel that prejudice and bigotry in this world are not simply caused by one or two individuals committing acts influencing the whole, but the whole not doing enough to combat those acts.

[poedua]

I think what some people would want is to replace multiculturalism with euroculturalism.


To me " euroculturalism " translates to xenophobia and an anti-immigration sentiment.

[Bullseye]

We must seperate, as a nation, the concept of the "war on terror" from the concept of "the war on radical Islam".

The world is filled with radicals. Christian. Jewish. Muslim. Buddhist. Every spectrum has its own radical element. We are not without our own terrorist groups in white Judeo-Christian North America. Timothy McVeigh is a good example of that.

Yes, in recent years, radical islam has been responsible for terrorist attacks. This goes without saying. What needs to happen is that Islam itself needs to lead the fight against these elements. The optics of Islamic society (in North America) is that they haven't really done anything, one way or the other, to lead the cause against these groups. This is, in large part, the reason why these racial stereotypes are being heaped upon Islamic culture.

Muslim people throughout the world are being persecuted based on the actions of the (continuing) minority. In order to combat this persecution, Islam needs to fight harder than anybody to remove this. They need to be the flag carriers, and not simply the consenting party.

This is not limited to Islam: all cultures and ethnicities need to combat their apparent weaknesses in order to remove their prejudices. Let me elaborate: in the states, an overwhelming majority of inmates are African-American. Barring racism and inequal justice (which I refuse to believe is the reason for this imbalance), the African American community needs to not only address this issue, but be the leader in correcting it.

I feel that prejudice and bigotry in this world are not simply caused by one or two individuals committing acts influencing the whole, but the whole not doing enough to combat those acts.

So when a Christian fundamentalist shoots an abortion doctor, why is there never an outcry for people of the Christian faith to condemn it? When white guys murder people, why do we not ask that the white community address this problem and take steps as a community to fix it?

The many are not responsible for the few who just happen to look like them or share some of their beliefs. There is no black 'community', just like there is no white community. There is no Christian community, and no Islamic community.

[danfromwaterloo]

So when a Christian fundamentalist shoots an abortion doctor, why is there never an outcry for people of the Christian faith to condemn it? When white guys murder people, why do we not ask that the white community address this problem and take steps as a community to fix it?

Just because we don't do it ourselves doesn't mean it not ought to be done. You're absolutely right. When a nut goes and kills an abortion doctor, it MUST be the church to lead the charge. Tell them that all life is considered precious: even that of an abortion doctor. And that final judgement can only be levied by God and no other.

And as for "white guy" murder, if it becomes a problem, we should.

The many are not responsible for the few who just happen to look like them or share some of their beliefs. There is no black 'community', just like there is no white community. There is no Christian community, and no Islamic community.

No, they are not responsible for the few, but they are responsible as a community to not simply condemn it with words, but with actions.

No "black community" or "white community" or "Islamic community"? What hole are you living in? Of course there are these communities. Birds of a feather will flock together, and it is in these circles that terrorism, violence, crime, and agression MUST be fought. Saying big words behind a podium only pays lip service.

[Rehan]

The Canadian Islamic Congress has a paper on "smart integration": Towards Smart Integration: The Choice of Canadian Muslims (http://www.canadianislamiccongress.com/ar/smart.php)
From the conclusion section:
One of the difficulties in studying minority groups and of assessing minority-majority relations is their great diversity. Minorities can be far more diverse than the majority groups within which they live.

Canadian Muslims, however, have proven to be the most internationalist and cosmopolitan of all Canadian minority groups; there include some 50 countries of origin, and at least a dozen mother tongues. They embrace five styles of religious practice, maintain about ten levels of social status and education, and recognize a number of major sects and sub-sects.

Half of them are born in Canada, some immigrated willingly, and some came as refugees escaping persecution. Some strive to disappear into the majority, even beyond assimilation, while others determinedly seek to preserve their identity through isolation. But amid these extremes an increasing number struggle to come to terms with smart integration. After all, who wants to be labelled as “alien” or “foreigner” in the land one calls home?


In their recent media communique they criticized the gov't for not funding research on "home grown" effects of imported extremism (http://www.canadianislamiccongress.com/mc/media_communique.php?id=775)... I can understand their point -- "If other social problems, such as the high rate of crime among inner city youth, received millions of dollars in research funding over the past decade, why are proactive Muslim initiatives being ignored?" -- but Muslims should not wait for a government handout to tackle this problem.

[nsd]

You seemed to have ignored the request to reply this question about your statements in another thread so please answer:

You said that when the Serbs, Mulims and Croats had their civil war that no "foreigners" were killed and it was "kept in the family". That's a pretty selective and self serving time frame.

During WW2, the Croatians were allied with the Nazis and conducted brutality on a scale which shocked even Hitler's SS. Croatian "Ustasha" killed women, children and any allied prisoners they could find. English, Canadian and Americans were all killed by the Croats. In fact it was the Serbians who were allies of the West, not the Croats.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Pavelic


Should we be afraid of Croatians since they were extremists and threatened the security of the free world just over 60 years ago?
That's such a stupid question, really. You're comparing things from 60 years ago with things from a few days ago. Care to point out some recent Croatian terrorists for me please ?

[vladislav]

There is no black 'community', just like there is no white community. There is no Christian community, and no Islamic community.

What world do you live in? Surely not in the real one. I always believed that as long as we have these communities (and we do, it's obvious) we will not be able to have true integration. As long as we divide by colour, by country of origin, by language, by sexual preference, by religion, etc we will stay divided and I don't see this ever changing.

[Bullseye]

Just because we don't do it ourselves doesn't mean it not ought to be done. You're absolutely right. When a nut goes and kills an abortion doctor, it MUST be the church to lead the charge. Tell them that all life is considered precious: even that of an abortion doctor. And that final judgement can only be levied by God and no other.

And as for "white guy" murder, if it becomes a problem, we should.

No, they are not responsible for the few, but they are responsible as a community to not simply condemn it with words, but with actions.

No "black community" or "white community" or "Islamic community"? What hole are you living in? Of course there are these communities. Birds of a feather will flock together, and it is in these circles that terrorism, violence, crime, and agression MUST be fought. Saying big words behind a podium only pays lip service.

I completely disagree with everything you wrote. How can you say there is a black community, for example? Blacks in Canada are from dozens of different countries in the Caribbean and Africa, with entirely different cultures and values from each other. Some blacks have been here longer than my white family. So you think just by being black alone, they have a duty to speak up when someone else who is black does something? A ridiculous notion.

The same logic applies to all your other statements.

[Roninvancouver]

That's such a stupid question, really. You're comparing things from 60 years ago with things from a few days ago. Care to point out some recent Croatian terrorists for me please ?

Well my point there is to Croatianguy's misguided reliance on "past" history. He spoke of the "barbarians and the romans" in his previous arguments. You are missing the context NSD.

But if you want more current examples of Croatian war crimes just do a google:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4263426.stm

[NorthYorker]

So when a Christian fundamentalist shoots an abortion doctor, why is there never an outcry for people of the Christian faith to condemn it? I guess it's because (1) every such case is reason for immediate debates WITHIN Christian community about such extreme steps (I do not remember ANY representative of ANY Muslim Canadian organization discussing reasons for "Group 17"'s appearance) and (2) sheer scale of events (compare number of Christian extremists out there killing doctors and number of Islamic extremists killing all non-Muslims they can lay hand on).

When white guys murder people, why do we not ask that the white community address this problem and take steps as a community to fix it?Again, probably sheer scale of events. When Blacks (probably something like 10% or less of GTA's population) are responsible for 90% of gun killings one can't help but ask questions.

[Bullseye]

What world do you live in? Surely not in the real one. I always believed that as long as we have these communities (and we do, it's obvious) we will not be able to have true integration. As long as we divide by colour, by country of origin, by language, by sexual preference, by religion, etc we will stay divided and I don't see this ever changing.

See my post above, I stand by my assertion that there is no such communities. Christianity and Islam are made up of many different sects, it's folly to expect one sect to carry responsility for the actions of another. A moderate Catholic should feel no need to speak out against an evangelical who preaches that god hates homos and that they should be forcibly 'cured. A moderate Muslim should likewise feel no need to answer for the actions of extremist sects. These are entirely different groups of people, with vastly different beliefs, they have very little in common except for falling under the same far reaching umbrella.

[Bullseye]

I guess it's because (1) every such case is reason for immediate debates WITHIN Christian community about such extreme steps (I do not remember ANY representative of ANY Muslim Canadian organization discussing reasons for "Group 17"'s appearance) and (2) sheer scale of events (compare number of Christian extremists out there killing doctors and number of Islamic extremists killing all non-Muslims they can lay hand on).


See my post above, already addressed.

Again, probably sheer scale of events. When Blacks (probably something like 10% or less of GTA's population) are responsible for 90% of gun killings one can't help but ask questions.

Are you truly claiming those to be the stats? They aren't, and it's dishonest of you to just pull numbers from the air.

But if you want to take this route, we could apply it as well...the overwhelming majority of serial murderers are white, why is this? Surely this provides your scale, but no one ever asks why this is, or expect a response from some invented 'white community'.

[vladislav]

See my post above, I stand by my assertion that there is no such communities. Christianity and Islam are made up of many different sects, it's folly to expect one sect to carry responsility for the actions of another. A moderate Catholic should feel no need to speak out against an evangelical who preaches that god hates homos and that they should be forcibly 'cured. A moderate Muslim should likewise feel no need to answer for the actions of extremist sects. These are entirely different groups of people, with vastly different beliefs, they have very little in common except for falling under the same far reaching umbrella.

I agree with you on that point, I don't think anyone should be responsible for actions of someone else in this case. My point is that you can't possibly believe that there are no communities based on race, religion, sexual preference, etc
My problem is that since there are these communities they expect each other to take care of their own. You see instead of being one big happy family this family is divided and instead of seeing people as individuals they are seen as a part of a different family.

[brwnhaggler]

Great post! The point is why do feel these communities need to clean up their act. In most cases, the community has not part in the actions of the extremists. By the process of saying it's only their problem, we further alienate these groups, which is part of the intial problem

See my post above, I stand by my assertion that there is no such communities. Christianity and Islam are made up of many different sects, it's folly to expect one sect to carry responsility for the actions of another. A moderate Catholic should feel no need to speak out against an evangelical who preaches that god hates homos and that they should be forcibly 'cured. A moderate Muslim should likewise feel no need to answer for the actions of extremist sects. These are entirely different groups of people, with vastly different beliefs, they have very little in common except for falling under the same far reaching umbrella.

[i2004tor]

As a visible minority myself, I know and have enjoyed the benefits of living in a multiculturalist society.

However, I also appreciate that the most powerful motivator of human actions and attitudes is the sense of fear and having one's security threatened. Whether it's seeing planes flying into buildings in the city in which you live, or wondering if the school bus your kids are boarding is the next target for suicide bombers; when these things happen close to home, you will see even the most tolerant of people turn to desperation and blame, and inevitably, stereotyping and hatred will emerge.

Stereotyping is also something that we all do innately, because it confers survival advantage. It helps us to recognize patterns and make decisions in a complicated world, just as it helped our ancestors and fellow animal kingdom species recognize predators, poisonous plants, etc. As humans, we can try to intellectually rise above it and preach things like, "Not all Muslim are bad; it's just a small group of radical fundamentalists, etc." These are truisms we utter; however, all of us will stereotype and discriminate, especially when our own sense of security is threatened by those who are "not like us".

[Rehan]

I do not remember ANY representative of ANY Muslim Canadian organization discussing reasons for "Group 17"'s appearance Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. :rolleyes: Personally, I've not seen any evidence of similar discussion in the Christian community when they are faced with this kind of issue, but I don't have the silly notion in my head that they are just ignoring it. Those kinds of discussions are not the type that get big (or any?) headlines, anyway.

Many Muslims do have a good idea of how or why radicalization occurs. The issue now is accepting that it's a significant problem and then finding a way to curb it. See my other post above.

[Bullseye]

I agree with you on that point, I don't think anyone should be responsible for actions of someone else in this case. My point is that you can't possibly believe that there are no communities based on race, religion, sexual preference, etc
My problem is that since there are these communities they expect each other to take care of their own. You see instead of being one big happy family this family is divided and instead of seeing people as individuals they are seen as a part of a different family.

Sure, there are groups of people who constitute communities, I don't deny this. My point was that it's too far reaching to say that there is a 'black community', 'Islamic community', etc. There may be a Somali-Toronto community, there may be a group of Sunni Muslims at a group of mosques that could be considered a community, etc.

You brought up an interesting example that we could use, that being sexual preference communities. Are all gays considered to be a community, responsible for the actions of other gays? I would not agree with that, it's likely a very diverse group of people, who likely only have one thing in common, their sexuality.

[nsd]

Well my point there is to Croatianguy's misguided reliance on "past" history. He spoke of the "barbarians and the romans" in his previous arguments. You are missing the context NSD.

But if you want more current examples of Croatian war crimes just do a google:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4263426.stm
I'm sure they aren't the only European nation with a darker past, but I had the impression that we're talking about the current actions of the radicals.

[poedua]

Great post! The point is why do feel these communities need to clean up their act. In most cases, the community has not part in the actions of the extremists. By the process of saying it's only their problem, we further alienate these groups, which is part of the intial problem

I agree.

Extremism stands on it's own IMO - it survives on radicalizing mainstream tenets of thought ( i.e from religion, politics, etc. )

In that way, extremism is neither a by-product of nor a contributor toward muticulturalism. Mullticulturalism is a philosophy related to societal development.

Therefore it is a false assumption by Croationguy that extremism is in any way related to multiculturalism.

[CroatianGuy]

For Roninvancouver and konfusion666 - you two do not deserve a reply but I will give it to you.

1. You guys do not discuss the issue. You go off on tangents and personal attacks. You come to the debate with on purpose - to bash someone over the head to prevent them from talking.

2. As for Croatian issue which you comment on. i do not deny that they happened 60 years ago. I do not deny that they happened during the civil war. Unfortunate things happen during civil wars. For those things I am embarassed. If I could turn back time to make changes I would. I did not participate in any of those events. Croatians nor Serbs brought the war over to Canada. Croatians and Serbs did not want to blow up Canadians. We had no desire to change Canadian culture.

Croatians are some of the hardest working and most integrated Canadians ever since we started immigrating to Canada in the 1950s. We do not ask for any special status in Canadian society. We became Canadians.

Here is a word for you:

Obfuscate
1. To make so confused or opaque as to be difficult to perceive or understand: “A great effort was made... to obscure or obfuscate the truth” (Robert Conquest).
Dictionary.com


What does it mean to be Canadian?

1. Call your self a Canadian.
2. Respect the rights of others even if they conflict with your own personal views.
3. Don't think that you are better than the Greeks or Germans or Ethiopeans or Chinese. Noone is better than anyone else.
4. Don't try to blow up Canadians.

I admit that I too am weak in that my moniker here is "CroatianGuy". Silly eh? Let me assure you that my first priority of Canada and the society that we saw as being better than the one that we left. There is a reason why people come to Canada and the US - that is that these are the best societies in the world.

I wish that we had a Canadian team in the World Cup so that we can cheer for a Canadian team rather than for an Argentinian, British, Brazilian or Portuguese team.

I find it odd that these people that come from authoritarian, theocratic monolistic countried come here and tell us how to run a multi-cultural country. Is it multi-culturalism or "special status" that some of these still ethnocentric newcomers really want?

For the "Radical Islamists" - please respect Christianity - we are not your enemies - we are your friends - we set up this multicultural society that you chose to come to. If you disagree please show me ONE other open and free multicultural society anywhere in the world that was not based on the Christian belief system.

[Rehan]

For the "Radical Islamists" - please respect Christianity - we are not your enemies - we are your friends - we set up this multicultural society that you chose to come to. You think they're here reading this thread? :lol:

[vladislav]

Sure, there are groups of people who constitute communities, I don't deny this. My point was that it's too far reaching to say that there is a 'black community', 'Islamic community', etc. There may be a Somali-Toronto community, there may be a group of Sunni Muslims at a group of mosques that could be considered a community, etc.

You brought up an interesting example that we could use, that being sexual preference communities. Are all gays considered to be a community, responsible for the actions of other gays? I would not agree with that, it's likely a very diverse group of people, who likely only have one thing in common, their sexuality.

Once again I agree with you, as long as you understand that there is a division into communities. I do not believe a community should be responsible for actions of the person who might remotely fit the description.

[NorthYorker]

See my post above, already addressed.You may claim you answered "discussion" part (although you're still ignoring simple fact that every "Christian terrorism" case causes immediate discussion within Christians and there's no discussion withing Islam community) but you chose to ignore "scale" part. For some reasons it doesn't amuse me but me being used to witness such tactics is not the reason for eltting you get away with it.

Are you truly claiming those to be the stats? They aren't, and it's dishonest of you to just pull numbers from the air.
You wanted stats? OK, here we are: http://www.international.metropolis.net/events/israel/papers/Siemiatycki.html

By 1996 census figures showed that visible minorities comprise 31.6% of the Toronto CMA population, and 37.3% of the new City of Toronto population.
...
25% of CMA Toronto’s visible minority population are Chinese, 24.7% are South Asian, and 20.5% are Black

I hope you're capable of calculating that blacks comprise 7% of Toronto population. But 9 times out of 10 they dare to show "persons of interests for murder investigation" I see black faces on TV. Coincidence?

[rb]

Questions for any Muslims here, have you personally seen any differences in atitude from non muslims in the last few years (since sept 11th ) or in the last few days (since the arrests)?

[Bullseye]

For the "Radical Islamists" - please respect Christianity - we are not your enemies - we are your friends - we set up this multicultural society that you chose to come to. If you disagree please show me ONE other open and free multicultural society anywhere in the world that was not based on the Christian belief system.

Radicals (of any religion) don't respect human life, why would they respect another religion? They even kill those within their own religion who they don't feel are not pious enough for their liking.

Don't turn this into a 'whose religion is better' debate, that cheapens the discussion.

[Rehan]

Questions for any Muslims here, have you personally seen any differences in atitude from non muslims in the last few years (since sept 11th ) or in the last few days (since the arrests)? In real life, no. Online, very much so. I think people feel more comfortable expressing those attitudes online than face-to-face.

[brwnhaggler]

Hey Rehan,

Do you listen to the current on cbc radio one?? There was a fellow who was a teacher(didn't catch his name) in mississauga for a couple of years and is now in the UK. The fellow had a very good understanding of the marginalization of islamic youth in the Western world. But furthur to that, he also was talking of practical plans(in the UK) on how to reach out the youth and to curb this brand of home grown terror. He had a good analysis of the situation. The podcast for the show should be up tommorow.



Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened. :rolleyes: Personally, I've not seen any evidence of similar discussion in the Christian community when they are faced with this kind of issue, but I don't have the silly notion in my head that they are just ignoring it. Those kinds of discussions are not the type that get big (or any?) headlines, anyway.

Many Muslims do have a good idea of how or why radicalization occurs. The issue now is accepting that it's a significant problem and then finding a way to curb it. See my other post above.

[Roninvancouver]

For Roninvancouver and konfusion666 - you two do not deserve a reply...




You ...do not discuss the issue. You go ...personal attacks.

Who made you judge?

And can you please give me one example where I personally attacked you?

[CroatianGuy]

Therefore it is a false assumption by Croationguy that extremism is in any way related to multiculturalism.

Where did I make that statement?

I think that one of the contributing factors to societal problems is that the "newcomers" do not take the time to integrate. They stand apart. hey seem aloof. Since THEY stand apart and don't take the time to show that they are becoming Canadian we do not go out of our way to help them integrate because that would be considered racism. The newcomers then feel marginalized and they start to feel resentful.

In the business world when I go to an established networking group I should have the initiative to go out and shake hands with people to meet them to introduce myself. It is my responsibility to learn the social norms of that group and to work by the social norms of the group. When I land a new job it is incumbant upon me to familiarize myself with the corporate culture and work under those cultural guidelines. I can't go into a company and start demanding that the company change to work the way that I think it should.

A pet peeve is that newcomers to Canada demand respect for their culture but they ignore and deplore the culture of the "white man" that created this country.

Following on this - young men who feel marginalized and "unaccepted" will feel resentful towards the society into which they have failed to integrate. Since they can't integrate into the culture of the majority they then develop their own sub-culture which they feel is superior to the culture of the majority. That is where the problem starts.

Next - (this is speculation please add and develop this line of reassoning) it must be real difficult for Muslims who have certain cultural and religious prerequisites to live in a society of temptation. It must be difficult to live in a society where your non-Muslim friends are out drinking and partying and smoking dope and most importantly getting laid. It must be difficult to see that happening around you and you are not getting any. There is a natural desire to eliminate the temptation - change society to suit your desires.

Roninvancouver - you try to discredit my arguments by bringing up issues which are not connected to what I say. You use the standard "You sound like Hitler" strategy of debate. When that is used then the debate ends.

CroatianGuy's ancestors were responsible for the deaths of 400k people!

konfusion666 what is your ethnic background? I wonder if your ancestors slaughtered anyone. Are you a white anglo male? Well then your ancestors are responsible for the near genocide of the native north americans. Are you black? It was black slave traders that captured slaves in Africa and sold them to the Europeans. Are you Mongolian? Ghenghis Khan rings a bell. Are you Russian? How about we mention Stalin. Cambodian? How about the Khmer Rouge? Chinese? How about the tens of millions killed by Mao?

[Bullseye]

You may claim you answered "discussion" part (although you're still ignoring simple fact that every "Christian terrorism" case causes immediate discussion within Christians and there's no discussion withing Islam community) but you chose to ignore "scale" part. For some reasons it doesn't amuse me but me being used to witness such tactics is not the reason for eltting you get away with it.

You're making things up again. I have not seen this 'immediate discussion' in Christianity that you speak of, and I dare say that you are very ignorant if you think Muslim congregations have not discussed the terrorism issue. Whare are you basing these comments on?

I did not ignore the 'scale' part, I gave you a direct comparison to show that people are asking for a higher standard to be applied to blacks than to whites.

You wanted stats? OK, here we are: http://www.international.metropolis.net/events/israel/papers/Siemiatycki.html

By 1996 census figures showed that visible minorities comprise 31.6% of the Toronto CMA population, and 37.3% of the new City of Toronto population.
...
25% of CMA Toronto’s visible minority population are Chinese, 24.7% are South Asian, and 20.5% are Black

I hope you're capable of calculating that blacks comprise 7% of Toronto population. But 9 times out of 10 they dare to show "persons of interests for murder investigation" I see black faces on TV. Coincidence?

I would like to address this, but it's straying pretty far from the OP's topic, and I don't want to alter the discussion. Please start another thread on this, and we can discuss black crime stats and the potential reasons for it.

[Rehan]

A pet peeve is that newcomers to Canada demand respect for their culture but they ignore and deplore the culture of the "white man" that created this country. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM

[Roninvancouver]

Roninvancouver - you try to discredit my arguments by bringing up issues which are not connected to what I say. You use the standard "You sound like Hitler" strategy of debate. When that is used then the debate ends.



You ...do not discuss the issue. You go ...personal attacks.

Actually you said that I personally attacked you.

Please provide a post to back up that statement or admit you lied.

[NorthYorker]

Questions for any Muslims here, have you personally seen any differences in atitude from non muslims in the last few years (since sept 11th ) or in the last few days (since the arrests)?I noticed change in attitude from my two Muslim co-workers and buddies (we're pretty closely-knit group where I work). They were visibly uncomfortable yesterday morning when they came to the office. BTW we did discuss recent events during the day and we (people of Chinese, Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish and Christian origin) let them know we aren't holding them responsible in any sence for what happened. On the same breath, they did confirm there are few too many people in their communities leaning toward radicalism.

[asim99]

In real life, no. Online, very much so. I think people feel more comfortable expressing those attitudes online than face-to-face.
kinda same for me

[Bullseye]

I think that one of the contributing factors to societal problems is that the "newcomers" do not take the time to integrate. They stand apart. hey seem aloof. Since THEY stand apart and don't take the time to show that they are becoming Canadian we do not go out of our way to help them integrate because that would be considered racism. The newcomers then feel marginalized and they start to feel resentful.

In the business world when I go to an established networking group I should have the initiative to go out and shake hands with people to meet them to introduce myself. It is my responsibility to learn the social norms of that group and to work by the social norms of the group. When I land a new job it is incumbant upon me to familiarize myself with the corporate culture and work under those cultural guidelines. I can't go into a company and start demanding that the company change to work the way that I think it should.

A pet peeve is that newcomers to Canada demand respect for their culture but they ignore and deplore the culture of the "white man" that created this country.

It's very common for newcomers to not integrate into their new homeland within the first generation (although some do), but the second generation is usually fully immersed, and the third is often so ingrained they consider themselves Canadian above all else.

My family came from Ukraine, Germany, and Holland, many of them did not ever learn to speak English, and they most certainly did not abandon their own social customs and norms in favour of the mish-mash of Canadians ones that existed at the time (and it does now). This is also very common with other cultures that came here, and continue to come here. My sister married a recent Bosnian-Serb immigrant, it caused trouble in his family, his parents wanted him to marry a nice Serb girl, and maintain all their customs.

My point is that many established Canadians seem to hold a higher standard for new immigrants than was held for their own families when they came here. They also tend to think that it's a white/non-white issue, which is demonstrably wrong, as shown above with my own examples.

[danfromwaterloo]

I completely disagree with everything you wrote. How can you say there is a black community, for example? Blacks in Canada are from dozens of different countries in the Caribbean and Africa, with entirely different cultures and values from each other. Some blacks have been here longer than my white family. So you think just by being black alone, they have a duty to speak up when someone else who is black does something? A ridiculous notion.

The same logic applies to all your other statements.

Alright, let's rephrase then to be completely PC. You're right, there's no "black" community. There's the African community and their sub-communities, and there's the Caribbean community and their sub-communities.

When "one" black person does something, no, they don't have to do anything. But in the case of the Muslim community and the proliferance of terrorist groups within their communities, THEY should be the ones to lead the charge against them. It is THEIR culture that is being slandered by the acts of these radicals ... THEY have the most to lose in this ... THEY should take the biggest stand in it.

Many many communities that are angered by the cultural generalizations and prejudices are angry at the rest of the groups for the labels they receive, but they don't do anything to combat these labels, which often times, are APT. What has the Muslim community done to eradicate terrorism within its own ranks? Palestinian suicide bombings, Iraqi insurgency, Al Qaeda, Taliban, the list goes on and on... the blame is NOT on the Muslim community, but if they do not actively do something to fight this evil in their own ranks (actively, not simply condemning it), they are silently condoning it.

Let me also make note that this is VERY similar to the Nazis and the Catholic church during WWII and their silence.

[NorthYorker]

Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.I'm deeply sorry if I sound offensive but I meant responce from people claimed to be "community leaders". Leaders and reporesentatives of such organizations as "Society of Canadian-Islamic relations" and such. Everything they been saying on TV last 3-4 days (and they had been given PLENTY of times to express thery feelings) was about how deeply Canadian society is guilty for not doing enough to integrate these kids and for not giving them enough opportunity.

[Rehan]

Next - (this is speculation please add and develop this line of reassoning) it must be real difficult for Muslims who have certain cultural and religious prerequisites to live in a society of temptation. It must be difficult to live in a society where your non-Muslim friends are out drinking and partying and smoking dope and most importantly getting laid. It must be difficult to see that happening around you and you are not getting any. :lol: You make it sound like Muslims are jealous of all that!

There is a natural desire to eliminate the temptation - change society to suit your desires. Elimination of the temptation is the reason for violence? Wow, that's a pretty creative one! Send it to Stephen Harper and he may use it in one of his press conferences.

[NorthYorker]

It's very common for newcomers to not integrate into their new homeland within the first generation (although some do), but the second generation is usually fully immersed, and the third is often so ingrained they consider themselves Canadian above all else. Most members of "Group of 17" are 2-nd generation. THAT's the problem :evil:

[CroatianGuy]

I used the term "newcomers" as a societal thing which has been the case over the generations. I did not say anything about today or white / non-white. My parents were guilty of the same issue. I told my parents - especially my father - to do a better job of integrating but her did not. He stayed in the Croatian community. I on the other hand am a black sheep in the Croatian community because I don't like the insular nature and air of superiority prevalent in many people in that community.

One other issue that compounds the problem is that today the culture of "ME" is much more prevalent than the culture of "WE". Today the materialistic, capitalistic hedonistic culture we have here is about instant gratification without restraint. We talk about rights but not about responsibilities. When we don't get what we want we throw tantrums.

This terrorist threat could be one of those tantrums.

Newcomers today want instant respect - but they don't realize that trust and respect are not given but earned.

[asim99]

on the issue of immigrant integration: (galati and fateh contend that current idea of multiculturalism is more like 'prosperous gettoization')

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=30&ItemID=10283
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1149112209827&call_pageid=968256290204&col=968350116795

[Roninvancouver]

Newcomers today want instant respect - but they don't realize that trust and respect are not given but earned.

Well said, now please answer below and earn some respect.



Roninvancouver - you try to discredit my arguments by bringing up issues which are not connected to what I say. You use the standard "You sound like Hitler" strategy of debate. When that is used then the debate ends.



You ...do not discuss the issue. You go ...personal attacks.

Actually you said that I PERSONALLY attacked you.

Please provide a post to back up that statement or admit you lied.

[poedua]

Where did I make that statement?

I think that one of the contributing factors to societal problems is that the "newcomers" do not take the time to integrate. They stand apart. hey seem aloof. Since THEY stand apart and don't take the time to show that they are becoming Canadian we do not go out of our way to help them integrate because that would be considered racism. The newcomers then feel marginalized and they start to feel resentful..

Theres you go again...what is this " becoming Canadian "stereotype you keep coming back to ? You'd said earlier...." " I ask Muslims in Canada to become more Canadian "....why ????? What is wrong with Muslims as they are now ?

What is this Canadian "standard " of yours immigrants need to attain ?

In the business world when I go to an established networking group I should have the initiative to go out and shake hands with people to meet them to introduce myself. It is my responsibility to learn the social norms of that group and to work by the social norms of the group. When I land a new job it is incumbant upon me to familiarize myself with the corporate culture and work under those cultural guidelines. I can't go into a company and start demanding that the company change to work the way that I think it should...

Immigrants have that "choice " too ? So what is your point and what does that have to do with terrorism and radical islam ?

A pet peeve is that newcomers to Canada demand respect for their culture but they ignore and deplore the culture of the "white man" that created this country....

Respect for their culture and religion is a right - equality. To ignore and deplore the culture is a freedom of speech / expression and is their choice - Canada is a democracy .

As for this......" the culture of the "white man" " comment - got news for you.......Canada IS multicultural ......it ISN'T white !!!!

That sort of statement sounds like one that would fit in quite well at a White Supremcist or KKK rally.

Following on this - young men who feel marginalized and "unaccepted" will feel resentful towards the society into which they have failed to integrate. Since they can't integrate into the culture of the majority they then develop their own sub-culture which they feel is superior to the culture of the majority. That is where the problem starts.....

Frankly, if any group of people can't integrate into Canada - with all our freedoms and tolerant society..good luck. There are few if any other countries where an immigrtant is welcomed and embraced as they are in Canada. Let them try the US, France, Germany or the UK and see if it's any better.


Next - (this is speculation please add and develop this line of reassoning) it must be real difficult for Muslims who have certain cultural and religious prerequisites to live in a society of temptation. .....

Ridiculous. Temptation is not religion specific or an "excuse " for anything.


It must be difficult to live in a society where your non-Muslim friends are out drinking and partying and smoking dope and most importantly getting laid. It must be difficult to see that happening around you and you are not getting any. There is a natural desire to eliminate the temptation - change society to suit your desires......

Difficult ...big deal...happens in all religions..in all countries.

[Bullseye]

But in the case of the Muslim community and the proliferance of terrorist groups within their communities, THEY should be the ones to lead the charge against them. It is THEIR culture that is being slandered by the acts of these radicals ... THEY have the most to lose in this ... THEY should take the biggest stand in it.

Many many communities that are angered by the cultural generalizations and prejudices are angry at the rest of the groups for the labels they receive, but they don't do anything to combat these labels, which often times, are APT. What has the Muslim community done to eradicate terrorism within its own ranks? Palestinian suicide bombings, Iraqi insurgency, Al Qaeda, Taliban, the list goes on and on... the blame is NOT on the Muslim community, but if they do not actively do something to fight this evil in their own ranks (actively, not simply condemning it), they are silently condoning it.

Let me also make note that this is VERY similar to the Nazis and the Catholic church during WWII and their silence.

Most of the radicals are of the Wahhabi sect of Islam, while most Muslims in Canada and the U.S. are Sunni or Shiite. Saying the Sunni or Shiite groups here need to lead the charge and be responsible for the another sect makes no sense, it's like saying Catholics should speak out against the crimes of the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, who are corrupting a form of Christianity.

[Rehan]

I'm deeply sorry if I sound offensive but I meant responce from people claimed to be "community leaders". Leaders and reporesentatives of such organizations as "Society of Canadian-Islamic relations" and such. Everything they been saying on TV last 3-4 days (and they had been given PLENTY of times to express thery feelings) was about how deeply Canadian society is guilty for not doing enough to integrate these kids and for not giving them enough opportunity. I don't watch TV, so I don't know what they've been saying there. But here's an example of the discussion about extremism in mosques:
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/story.html?id=29a5f8eb-d75b-4141-b94d-1541cf990733

There are some (like Aly Hindy) that are in denial, but most do understand the situation.

BTW, what I don't like about that news article is that it bases its headline on stuff like this:
When the leaders were asked if they had witnessed talk of extremism in their mosques, Imam Hamid Slimi, leader of the Rexdale mosque that had its front windows smashed in early Sunday morning, said: "Absolutely not."

"And if any of us ever hear, or have heard, of any of our members speaking about acts of violence or death, we would obviously call the police," he said. But that's totally missing the point that there are different kinds of Muslims and different kids of mosques. The vandals that smashed Slimi's mosque in Rexdale probably didn't realize that his centre is very pro-active in inter-faith discussions (example (http://www.cjnews.com/viewarticle.asp?id=8304)). So that mosque is naturally not the kind that extremists would want to attend. So even if he says that extremism is not present in his mosque, it's not a denial of the existence of extremism in the Muslim community.

[CroatianGuy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhEl6HdfqWM

Thanks for sharing that.

To those that want to "change" society let me put forth the following.

Have a little bit of self discipline. The "white race" is on the decline. As the white race has become more hedonistic - as a result of the "me" based culture - the birth rate is lower than the mortality rate. That means that the number of white people is on the decline! As white people have children with non-white people the children no longer consider themselves "white" and therefore there is a greater increase in the non-white population.

As for religion - we Catholics, Protestants, etc are losing our religion. In North America and Europe religion is on the decline.

So - for the non-white and non-christian people out there that despise our culture and our society all you need to do is wait. Soon white people will be the minority. Soon we will be the ones relegated to the reservations and ghettos. Soon you will be able to indoctrinate us into your religions.


... but please realize that racism will not end with the decline of the white man. Everyone hates everyone else that is not like them. Racism will then be about the Arabs hating the Blacks and the Blacks hating the Chinese etc etc (just using that as an example).

[Rehan]

Everyone hates everyone else that is not like them. Speak for yourself...

[CroatianGuy]

Actually you said that I PERSONALLY attacked you.

Please provide a post to back up that statement or admit you lied.

I took your attempt at equating me with my Nazi forefathers as a personal attack. You tried to discredit my ideas by equating me to Nazis.


Poedua - look at the concept put forward by asim 99
on the issue of immigrant integration: (galati and fateh contend that current idea of multiculturalism is more like 'prosperous gettoization')

If multiculturalism is nothing but 'prosperous ghetoization' then people are not really living in Canada but in mini-versions of the country that they left. If they do not live in "Canada" then they are not Canadian.

To Rehan's comment - yes my comment was a rather broad stroke but from a socialogical / anthropolocial perspective there is an innate human drive (as there is in all animals) to have a comfort in their own "tribe" but a mistrust of another tribe. Can you state that racism is just a white guy thing? That only white people are reacists towards others? Can you tell me that Arabs are not racist against Blacks or that Asians are not racist against Arabs?

Just announced on the news that one of the guys arrested wanted to behead the Prime Minister.

[Roninvancouver]

I took your attempt at equating me with my Nazi forefathers as a personal attack. You tried to discredit my ideas by equating me to Nazis.


Well that is not a personal attack when someone brings up historical facts.

If it was considered a personal attack, you have then just personally attacked all the Muslims on this board by equating the actions of some radical Muslims with the 99% of non-radicals here and elsewhere

And that is the fundamental flaw in all your thinking.

[Bullseye]

Thanks for sharing that.

To those that want to "change" society let me put forth the following.

Have a little bit of self discipline. The "white race" is on the decline. As the white race has become more hedonistic - as a result of the "me" based culture - the birth rate is lower than the mortality rate. That means that the number of white people is on the decline! As white people have children with non-white people the children no longer consider themselves "white" and therefore there is a greater increase in the non-white population.

As for religion - we Catholics, Protestants, etc are losing our religion. In North America and Europe religion is on the decline.

So - for the non-white and non-christian people out there that despise our culture and our society all you need to do is wait. Soon white people will be the minority. Soon we will be the ones relegated to the reservations and ghettos. Soon you will be able to indoctrinate us into your religions.


... but please realize that racism will not end with the decline of the white man. Everyone hates everyone else that is not like them. Racism will then be about the Arabs hating the Blacks and the Blacks hating the Chinese etc etc (just using that as an example).

You're forgetting that it's not only whites procreating with non-whites, there are many mixed race couples of all types having children in Canada and the U.S. The end result won't be a decline in 'white' people and a rise in other races, but more likely a rise in mixed people, which is a good thing, less stupid things for people to fight over.

Your paranoid vision is something that white supremacy groups have been shouting about for years. I think it's ridiculous, and amounts to a sort of fear mongering about multiculturalism.

[danfromwaterloo]

Most of the radicals are of the Wahhabi sect of Islam, while most Muslims in Canada and the U.S. are Sunni or Shiite. Saying the Sunni or Shiite groups here need to lead the charge and be responsible for the another sect makes no sense, it's like saying Catholics should speak out against the crimes of the Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda, who are corrupting a form of Christianity.

A) Yes, they should lead the charge against a sect of Islam that seeks to kill innocents. EVERY Muslim, if they practice their true religion, should be against this - Islam means peace.

B) I am NOT saying that every little thing needs a charge. Before you even mentioned it, I haven't heard of the LRA or anything in Uganda. If radical Christianity became a global concern - killing innocents, terrorist acts, etc, then yes, I'd be one of the most vocal opponents of them.


Why are people fearing and hating Muslims more? Because they associate being Muslim with being a terrorist ... and this mindset is wrong, yes. Absolutely. But at the same time, what is being done within these Wahhabi sects of Islam to combat the radical elements? What is being done to ostracize and excommunicate these people from their communities?

I am not saying that the Muslim community is to blame whatsoever, but if I were a part of a community where this stuff was going on, I'd be royally p*ssed at my own community members for giving my community a black eye, and I'd make sure that I'd lead the charge against another member doing that.

[poedua]

Thanks for sharing that.

To those that want to "change" society let me put forth the following.

Have a little bit of self discipline. The "white race" is on the decline. As the white race has become more hedonistic - as a result of the "me" based culture - the birth rate is lower than the mortality rate. That means that the number of white people is on the decline! As white people have children with non-white people the children no longer consider themselves "white" and therefore there is a greater increase in the non-white population.

As for religion - we Catholics, Protestants, etc are losing our religion. In North America and Europe religion is on the decline.

So - for the non-white and non-christian people out there that despise our culture and our society all you need to do is wait. Soon white people will be the minority. Soon we will be the ones relegated to the reservations and ghettos. Soon you will be able to indoctrinate us into your religions.


... but please realize that racism will not end with the decline of the white man. Everyone hates everyone else that is not like them. Racism will then be about the Arabs hating the Blacks and the Blacks hating the Chinese etc etc (just using that as an example).

Unbelievable.

- " Everyone hates everyone else that is not like them " - ridiculous, in Croatia perhaps, not here in Canada.

- " the non-white and non-christian people out there that despise our culture "- NO they don't, ......you just THINK they do...the problem is YOU and your generalizations, not them

- " Soon we [ "white race"] will be the ones relegated to the reservations and ghettos " - sadly, this speaks for itself

.......what is this "stuff " they taught you in Croatia anyway ?

[Roninvancouver]

Unbelievable.

- " Everyone hates everyone else that is not like them " - ridiculous, in Croatia perhaps, not here in Canada.

- " the non-white and non-christian people out there that despise our culture "- NO they don't, ......you just THINK they do...the problem is YOU and your generalizations, not them

- " Soon we [ "white race"] will be the ones relegated to the reservations and ghettos " - sadly, this speaks for itself

.......what is this "stuff " they taught you in Croatia anyway ?

This "Croatianguy" is pushing racism. His language and ideas are racist and have no business here. He showed up and within 2 days published over 30 messages all pushing towards a now clear "white race" agenda.

Ban him.

[CroatianGuy]

Your paranoid vision is something that white supremacy groups have been shouting about for years. I think it's ridiculous, and amounts to a sort of fear mongering about multiculturalism.

The idea which I put forward is not a paranoid vision but the truth. The reason that North America and Western Europe have the immigration policies they do is not because they want to bring foreigners into their countries out of the goodness of their hearts but because they have to bring them in for economic reasons.

In order for the economy to grow you need the population to grow. If the birthrate of the original population is declining then you have to increase the population by immigration.

Why is everything that you do not understand equated to fearmongering?

It is a FACT that the white race is on the decline.
This is a fact just like the speed of light is 300,000km/s.
I draw no moral or ethical statements.

[CroatianGuy]

This "Croatianguy" is pushing racism. His language and ideas are racist and have no business here. He showed up and within 2 days published over 30 messages all pushing towards a now clear "white race" agenda.Ban him.

Racism? Where did I make a single racist statement? What have you added to the conversation? Most of my posts are rebuttals to idiotic statements made by terrorits sympathizers on this forum.

[danfromwaterloo]

Everyone hates everyone else that is not like them

the non-white and non-christian people out there that despise our culture

Soon we [ "white race"] will be the ones relegated to the reservations and ghettos

Wow.

There are plenty of people out there that are not white or christian that don't despise us. I fail to believe that anybody despises anybody simply because of their skin, culture, or religion. Those people are bigots, and I don't really care about them.

And, lets face it, in the history of the world, us whites have done more hating than the non-whites. Oh, and those terms that you used, ghettos, reservations..... WE INVENTED THEM. We also invented concentration camps, human ovens, crucifixion, and a whole other list of wonderful forms of torture and death for those we perceive to be beneath us.

[konfusion666]

Racism? Where did I make a single racist statement? What have you added to the conversation? Most of my posts are rebuttals to idiotic statements made by terrorits sympathizers on this forum.

Many of your statements are full of racist remarks, and now more than 10 RFD'ers agree - and they have seen what I saw when you made your first statement.

Your statements/posts also contain much in the way of "baiting" but for some reason the Moderators are protecting you, so you remain un-banned.

[CroatianGuy]

Many of your statements are full of racist remarks, and now more than 10 RFD'ers agree - and they have seen what I saw when you made your first statement.

Your statements/posts also contain much in the way of "baiting" but for some reason the Moderators are protecting you, so you remain un-banned.


I said it before and I will say it again - show me one comment that is racist.

How am I "baiting" when comments made by terrorist sympathizers is not considered baiting?

What is racism?

Racism

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Just because you do not like what I have to say and quite honestly I have not said anything really new - read the artcle from the Toronto Star quoted.

You can't counter my arguments and so you turn to the strategy of the thug.

[danfromwaterloo]

It is a FACT that the white race is on the decline.
This is a fact just like the speed of light is 300,000km/s.
I draw no moral or ethical statements.

A) There is no "white race".

B) Yes, our population is on the decline, but north americans control a majority of the world's wealth. While "white" Americans and Canadians are getting obese and enjoying large screen TVs, millions around the world (who are NOT white) are dying by starvation, disease, or war.

[danfromwaterloo]

I said it before and I will say it again - show me one comment that is racist.

How am I "baiting" when comments made by terrorist sympathizers is not considered baiting?

You're kidding, right?

Oh, I forgot, this board is filled with people who got a hard-on from 9/11...

[Bullseye]

I think Croationguy doesn't realize that there is no 'white race'. 'White' is not an ethnic or cultural group, any more than 'black' is. He bemoans the 'decline of the 'white race', but I bet he has more in common culturally with a Canadian born black than he does with a white Argentinian.

[konfusion666]

I think Croationguy doesn't realize that there is no 'white race'. 'White' is not an ethnic or cultural group, any more than 'black' is. He bemoans the 'decline of the 'white race', but I bet he has more in common culturally with a Canadian born black than he does with a white Argentinian.

Actually, from his command of English and his choice of username (which reflects his ethnic background) I'd say he is a very recent immigrant, who's looking at the issue through Balkanized lenses.

[Ryan]

Evidence suggests that CroatiaGuy is a previously banned member. He's been banned. Lock and move on.