Guilty plea in Zhang murder

[thelefteyeguy]

Guilty plea in Zhang murder
Toronto girl taken from her bedroom in October, 2003
May 9, 2006. 10:12 AM
THESTAR.COM STAFF


Chinese visa student Min Chen, 23, pleaded guilty today to second-degree murder in the 2003 abduction and slaying of 9-year-old Toronto schoolgirl Cecilia Zhang.
Chen entered the surprise plea in a Brampton courtroom this morning. He has been sentenced to life in prison.

Chen admitted in court that he smothered Zhang by placing his hand over her mouth.

Zhang was abducted from her bed on the night of Oct. 20, 2003. Her parents were asleep only metres away inside the North York family home near Finch Ave. and Highway 404.

Zhang’s disappearance triggered an exhaustive, weeks-long search by police and volunteers. Her case was featured on the TV program America’s Most Wanted.

Nevertheless, no trace of Zhang was found for five months.

On March 27, 2004, a Mississauga resident was drawn to a ravine behind the Church of Croatian Martyrs by the sound of coyotes. In a wooded area there beside the Credit River, Zhang’s body was found.

Peel police have never revealed the cause of death, the reasons behind her abduction or why the Seneca Hills Public School student was slain.

Chen was arrested July 21, 2004.

The Shanghai-born resident was living in Canada under a student visa that was about to expire although the former Seneca College student had quit school several months earlier.

With files from Canadian Press

[Rehan]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1147169626570&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Cecilia died during abduction

Guilty plea will result in life sentence
Crown says it does not 'fully accept' Chen's story

May 9, 2006. 11:17 AM
THESTAR.COM STAFF

BRAMPTON - Chinese visa student Min Chen today admitted in court that he abducted and murdered 9-year-old Cecilia Zhang.

With defence lawyer John Rosen standing by his side, the 23-year-old pleaded guilty to second-degree murder in the Oct. 20, 2003 slaying of the Toronto schoolgirl.

In an agreed statement of facts, Chen said he accidentally suffocated Cecilia as he carried her from the family’s North York home. Chen said the crime was a kidnapping for ransom to pay for a marriage of convenience that would allow him to stay in Canada.

But after putting the child in his trunk and checking on her moments later, Chen realized she was dead, Crown counsel Mark Saltmarsh told a Brampton court.

The shocking admission in the Brampton courtroom, filled with members of the Peel and Toronto police task force that investigated the case, abruptly ended what was expected to be a weeks-long trial.

Justice Bruce Durno asked Chen many questions about his decision to plead guilty and the young man stood impassively in the prisoner’s dock, saying "Yes," 13 times, "No," twice and "I understand," three times in response.

He uttered the single word - "Guilty" - when a court attendant asked for his plea to the charge of second-degree murder.

A sentence was still to be imposed on Chen, who will likely be deported back to mainland China if granted parole in 10 or more years.

The abduction and murder of the gifted young pianist tugged at the hearts of residents throughout Greater Toronto and forever linked her with other young Toronto-area homicide victims such as Holly Jones, Kayla Klaudusz, Christopher Stephenson, Andrea Atkinson, Alison Parrott, Christine Jessop, Emanuel Jacques and Sharin Morningstar Keenan.

Chen has been in custody since his arrest on July 21, 2004, meaning he will become eligible for his decade parole in July 2014.

In pleading guilty, Chen admitted he was failing his studies and feared he would forfeit his visa and be forced to return to China.

He devised a scheme to abduct Cecilia. He believed he could get the cash to pay for an arranged marriage and return the girl to her family the same day.

But as he carried her from the home and covered her mouth with his hand to stifle her screams, he suffocated Cecilia even before he reached his car.

Chen told prosecutors he had not intended to harm the girl.

He decided to bury her body in a Mississauga ravine, Saltmarsh told court, but abandoned the plan because the ground was too hard. Her skeletal remains were found March 27, 2004 by a local resident attracted to the ravine by coyote howls.

Saltmarsh said prosecutors did not "fully accept" Chen's version of events, but had no evidence to prove otherwise.

He said Chen's plea deal was agreed to police investigators and Cecilia's parents.

Three different investigative teams had placed Chen under surveillance for several weeks after Peel Police matched a fingerprint found inside the young girl’s home on Whitehorn Crescent with Chen’s thumbprint found on a discarded kitchen knife in the backyard.

Forensic experts found nine of Chen’s prints on the outside of a kitchen window from which he entered the home the night of the abduction. His thumbprint was also found on a hallway near Cecilia’s bedroom although none of his prints were lifted from anywhere inside the young girl’s room.

The Grade 4 student at Seneca Hills Public School was abducted from her bedroom in the early hours of Oct. 20, 2003.

Cecilia’s parents, Raymond Zhang and Sherry Xu, last saw their daughter alive when they put her to bed at about 10 p.m. on Oct. 19. Sherry returned to her daughter’s room at about 11:30 p.m. and kissed her goodnight before retiring herself to the master bedroom, located on another landing.

Cecilia’s remains were found five months later in a dry riverbed near the Credit River in Mississauga behind the Church of Croatian Martyrs.

An autopsy failed to determine the cause of her death.

The 6-foot, 150-pound Chen, known by his friends as Felix, had been in Canada since August 2001. He had taken an eight-month course in English at Seneca College from September, 2001 to April 2002 where he was one of 700 foreign students studying on student visas at the college.

In July, 2002, Chen enrolled at the McDonald International Academy, a private school offering Ontario high school credits and English as a second language to about 500 foreign students, mostly from Asia.
Some people will do anything to stay in Canada. :|

[mustanglover76]

I'm shocked he admitted his guilt on the first day...i guess he had to sit with this for 2 years and he coulnd't take it anymore...wonder whats going to happen him in prison...

[boonjaca]

He'll get brutalized big time, I heard that criminals don't take too lightly to others hurting children, apparently it's one of their codes. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[EchoAngel911]

what went wrong with him

[15-20_God]

Some people will do anything to stay in Canada. :|

ironically, he will get to stay in canada but only behind bars.

[B40]

I'm shocked he admitted his guilt on the first day...i guess he had to sit with this for 2 years and he coulnd't take it anymore...wonder whats going to happen him in prison...

The first day is the only day you can enter a guilty plea.

It's either you plea guilty or not guilty... you can't plead not guilty and then halfway through change your mind...

He most likely got a lower sentence or some sort of incentive to plea guilty... that or he realized he had no chance and nothing to gain by pleading not guilty.

[thelefteyeguy]

wonder if he'll make a visit with Shaner

[d_jedi]

He most likely got a lower sentence or some sort of incentive to plea guilty... that or he realized he had no chance and nothing to gain by pleading not guilty.
He has been sentenced to life in prison.
Doesn't look like it..

Seriously, it's for people like this that we need the death penalty.

[fakishan]

Seriously, it's for people like this that we need the death penalty.
are you kidding?

[d_jedi]

are you kidding me?
You think this guy who murdered an 11 year old girl deserves to live?
:confused:

[john widow]

what an idiot seriously.

[fakishan]

You think this guy who murdered an 11 year old girl deserves to live? :confused:
I think he should be punished with a long imprisonment, and then deported since he'd of failed his visa requirements. I'm sure china or whatever is very accepting of loosers coming back with a criminal record ;)

The death penalty should be reserved for those that cannot be saved. Mainly "repeat offenders" of violent crime.

You're simpleton view of killing of undesirables doesn't work, and that's because your mind can't grasp as to why violent crime is commited. Give the penal system time to mature. I believe one day, we'll declare prisoners non-citizens and put them to slave labour for the betterement of the civilized world. Perhaps in mining colonies on Mars or for medical testing :cheesygri

[webdoctors]

actually, i wonder if he'll get treated badly in China after he gets booted out of Canada after his jail sentence. Maybe they'll incarcerate him there too and harvest his organs...

[fakishan]

actually, i wonder if he'll get treated badly in China after he gets booted out of Canada after his jail sentence. Maybe they'll incarcerate him there too and harvest his organs...
that should be none of our concern. we can sympathize with refugees and people screwed by bureaucracy, but not with criminals. :|

[laptop-tech]

He should get his b@lls cut off..... :mad:

Its terrible the way things are going now, where people no longer fear doing anything wrong. Long gone is the time when people could realize the difference between right and wrong, and fear the consequences of going the wrong way. I guess the lack of a really tough punishment is spoiling kids these days (and adults too of course). A lot of them when caught just say "whatever - ***** happens" and accept that they will be jailed for a long time (maybe forever) as its not really the end of the world.

I cannot imagine what it is like, knowing you will be confined with other really bad people, for years and years, maybe forever. The thought of it terrorizes me. And these animals dont seem to be really scared or afraid of the consequences, and it leads me to believe we're not being toght enough.

Child molesters are becoming more and more "accepted", in a sense. 30 or 40 years ago if you were a man molesting a boy and got caught, you'd probably kill yourself. Now, these sick folks even give interviews and admit that they're likely to do it again ! Yet, they can get out in parole after 2-3 years if that much.

The future is not friendly.

[rb]

Life doesn't mean life

"The judge is required to impose a life sentence, which means Chen will not be eligible for parole for between 10 and 20 years, depending on the circumstances of the case."

after which he will be deported

so he could be out in 10 years - shorter time then Cecillias age ! :mad:

As a parent - yes I would want death to the individual or a LIFE sentance with no chance of parole!

[mustanglover76]

I believe an eye for an eye...if this guy did this to my sister, i don't know what i'd do...thats my view...i don't care if he's young and he made a mistake...sorry if my view sounds harsh, but i'm very protective over my family...we can all say what we want but until something like this happens to us, it's hard for us to say what we will do....

the thing is reading the story it doesn't sound like he killed her on purpose...but is their proof of that?? Also if he is deported back to China, i've watched Documentaries about their prisons over there...isn't something he would want to go back to...

[Sajjad]

it's a winning situation for Min Chen
+he's staying in canada
+he's got all basic expenses paid for him in prison

I've been following this case since it started, I remember the day (I think it was Fantino or someone else) called him a 'heinous' something something criminal. And everyone was upset, they're like OMG how could you say that. Oh please.

[yan84]

Just wondering, if Chen confessed the crime right after the murder, instead of burying the body and running away, would his sentence be any less?

[Blunt]

Don't worry, this will turn out all right.
He we be brutalized in a Canadian Jail for 10 to 20 years..
When he's free, he goes back to China to get shot.

Win situation there.

[keanefan]

it's a winning situation for Min Chen
+he's staying in canada
+he's got all basic expenses paid for him in prison


and he can get a free education while in prison

[boonjaca]

I believe an eye for an eye...if this guy did this to my sister, i don't know what i'd do...thats my view...i don't care if he's young and he made a mistake...sorry if my view sounds harsh, but i'm very protective over my family...we can all say what we want but until something like this happens to us, it's hard for us to say what we will do....

the thing is reading the story it doesn't sound like he killed her on purpose...but is their proof of that?? Also if he is deported back to China, i've watched Documentaries about their prisons over there...isn't something he would want to go back to...

I'm ver protective of my family as well, if this happened to someone I know, then not even Chuck Norris would be able to stop my onslaught.

[bionicbadger]

Child molesters are becoming more and more "accepted", in a sense. 30 or 40 years ago if you were a man molesting a boy and got caught, you'd probably kill yourself. Now, these sick folks even give interviews and admit that they're likely to do it again ! Yet, they can get out in parole after 2-3 years if that much.


:?:
Did he "molest" her? I don't think I heard that...

[rfdrfd]

and he can get a free education while in prison


Yeah man, WTF ? Ppl are in a big OSAP hole for $20,000 bucks, while criminals that raped, killed, molested children get their degree for FREE??? WTF !!!!

Us tax payers are paying for their free education? COME ON. Something doesn't add up here.

Look at Carla Homo..... , she has a psychiatric degree now or something? WTF

[laptop-tech]

:?:
Did he "molest" her? I don't think I heard that...

[sigh...]

I did not say he did it.... if you read my post carefully you will notice I mentioned about the general situation in the society, regarding the escalating crime and the response we are giving to this trend.

[Shaner]

Life doesn't mean life

"The judge is required to impose a life sentence, which means Chen will not be eligible for parole for between 10 and 20 years, depending on the circumstances of the case."

after which he will be deported

so he could be out in 10 years - shorter time then Cecillias age ! :mad:

As a parent - yes I would want death to the individual or a LIFE sentance with no chance of parole!

Not true. Life in prison in Canada means exactly that, life! This guy will have no release date, ever. His Warrant Expiry Date (which is his release date) is at the end of his natural life.
He can get parole though, but people who are serving life sentences often don't get parole for 15-25 years. He's eligible for parole after 10 years, but I assure you he will not get it.

As for him getting brutalized in jail, don't count on it. Yes, he will likely be coming to Kingston Penitentiary and I will likely have t babysit his ass every day, but he will be kept in segregation and will never be amongst other inmates. He'll be kept safe behind a solid door at all times. Other inmates may kick or punch the door, or yell things at him as they walk by, but they won't be able to get at him.

He'll sit in his cell for 23 hours a day, watching TV (did I mention they get all the movie channels), listening to music on his stereo and playing Playstation. He'll get his free three meals every day, free healthcare and dental work, etc. If that isn't enough, he'll be given $90 every two weeks to spend on whatever he wants, including cigarettes, pop, chips, chocolate bars, etc.
The system is a joke!

[bionicbadger]

[sigh...]

I did not say he did it.... if you read my post carefully you will notice I mentioned about the general situation in the society, regarding the escalating crime and the response we are giving to this trend.

I did read it. You did not say he did. You did however throw child molesting into the topic dealing with a crime against a child. Murder is not child molesting.

I agree though, the lack of tough punishment is the problem. It starts with the "spanking is bad" drivel fed to people by the media. And continues with crap like the Young Offenders Act (and whatever the barely tougher new version is) and into the courtroom with judges giving lenient sentences to criminals who are allowed out on parole in a fraction of the time of the maximum allowed punishment.

[bionicbadger]

He'll sit in his cell for 23 hours a day, watching TV (did I mention they get all the movie channels), listening to music on his stereo and playing Playstation. He'll get his free three meals every day, free healthcare and dental work, etc. If that isn't enough, he'll be given $90 every two weeks to spend on whatever he wants, including cigarettes, pop, chips, chocolate bars, etc.
The system is a joke!

Hey Shaner, can he spend that on an "escort"?

[rb]

Not true. Life in prison in Canada means exactly that, life! This guy will have no release date, ever. His Warrant Expiry Date (which is his release date) is at the end of his natural life.
He can get parole though, but people who are serving life sentences often don't get parole for 15-25 years. He's eligible for parole after 10 years, but I assure you he will not get it.




I thought it was only those deemed dangerous offender who had no chance of parole - this W**nker still has "some" chance doesn't he?

[Shaner]

I thought it was only those deemed dangerous offender who had no chance of parole - this W**nker still has "some" chance doesn't he?

Yes, he can get parole, but he'll never be fully released, there's a difference. Even if he gets parole, he'll be on parole the rest of his life. If he violates the terms of his parole, even if it's 20 years after he first got paroled, he'll go back to jail.
His parole ends when he dies.

[Shaner]

Hey Shaner, can he spend that on an "escort"?

Are you serious? Of course not!

[hehehaha]

He'll sit in his cell for 23 hours a day, watching TV (did I mention they get all the movie channels), listening to music on his stereo and playing Playstation. He'll get his free three meals every day, free healthcare and dental work, etc. If that isn't enough, he'll be given $90 every two weeks to spend on whatever he wants, including cigarettes, pop, chips, chocolate bars, etc.
The system is a joke!


a playstation?? what about the games, what kind of games they provide?? do they offer computer/internet??

[Shaner]

a playstation?? what about the games, what kind of games they provide?? do they offer computer/internet??

They used to be allowed computers, but that changed. They aren't allowed computers anymore.
As for PS2 games, they're allowed anything. I've seen them playing GTA and Doom

[javaprogrammer]

He'll sit in his cell for 23 hours a day, watching TV (did I mention they get all the movie channels), listening to music on his stereo and playing Playstation. He'll get his free three meals every day, free healthcare and dental work, etc. If that isn't enough, he'll be given $90 every two weeks to spend on whatever he wants, including cigarettes, pop, chips, chocolate bars, etc.
The system is a joke!

Please shoot his ass for Canadian tax payers.

[marc_t]

This is so sad... nobody needed to be killed.

Chen went about it the wrong way to stay in Canada...

I wonder what went through his mind when he saw that he had actually killed her.

[Bordello]

This is so sad... nobody needed to be killed.

Chen went about it the wrong way to stay in Canada...

I wonder what went through his mind when he saw that he had actually killed her.
I still have trouble believing that he intended not to harm her. It's not like he accidentally strangled her. The kidnapping and ransom excuse screams BS to me. He probably made up the whole trying to stay in Canada thing to avoid deportation. I still think his ass should be sent to China. Whatever they do to him is their business. We don't need more scum like this leeching off taxpayer's money.

[konfusion666]

The problem with the whole deportation thing is ... considering the corrupt nature of China's bureaucracy, he could just pay off some of the officials (for a short term) and then try to smuggle himself back into Canada... and then he'd be back "on the streets" in Canada. Couldn't he? Why not guarantee a punishment of some sort, by keeping him here - rather than sending him to a country which is known to be far more corrupt than Canada, resulting in uncertainty as to his ultimate fate.

[javaprogrammer]

The problem with the whole deportation thing is ... considering the corrupt nature of China's bureaucracy, he could just pay off some of the officials (for a short term) and then try to smuggle himself back into Canada... and then he'd be back "on the streets" in Canada. Couldn't he? Why not guarantee a punishment of some sort, by keeping him here - rather than sending him to a country which is known to be far more corrupt than Canada, resulting in uncertainty as to his ultimate fate.

China is not that corrupt. He would be sentenced to death right away and be shot within 3 days. He has to pay for the bullet. If he's broke, his parents will have to pay for it. Zero waste of taxpayers money.

[d_jedi]

I'd support deportation.. if the Chinese guarantee that they'll execute him..

[15-20_God]

China is not that corrupt.

yes, and ppl in china don't eat rice.

[javaprogrammer]

yes, and ppl in china don't eat rice.

not funny. obviously you have no idea how criminals are treated in China

[15-20_God]

not funny. obviously you have no idea how criminals are treated in China

not funny. obviously you have no idea how ppl with ties to govt officials, people of influence, or ppl willing to bribe are treated in china.

[keanefan]

When he is deported to China after serving several years in Canada- he will be a free man in China.

Freed killer riles ex-cop
By RICK BELL

George Rocks will never forget Rie Fujii, the excuse for a mother who kills her two kids five years ago this month and, in a few days, at age 28, scores a Get Out of Jail Free card and a swift sayonara back to the freedom of Japan.

Fujii was one piece of work, leaving her 15-month-old son Domenic and three-month-old daughter Gemini alone in a city apartment for 10 days to starve to death while she was out in Cochrane getting it on with her new boyfriend.

"Other tenants heard the crying 24-hours-a-day for several days and, all of a sudden, the silence, the deathly silence, and everyone goes on with their lives. Nobody called a social agency, nobody called the police, nobody called. No one answered a baby's cry. You would like to think someone would step up. That never happened.

"The landlord smelled an odour and found Domenic's body."

Then there is Fujii.

Rocks does not hold back his words, his shock, his anger, his frustration.

"I have no respect for her whatsoever. None. I can't believe a human being would do this. And no sense of responsibility, no sense of accountability, no remorse, no emotion. Nothing. The lack of concern, the lack of co-operation. She was cold. The children were just a burden to her," says the former cop.

At the time, her diary told the tale. "I'll do whatever I want to do," writes Fujii, in her little world of me-myself-and-I. "I get stressed out. It pisses me off every time I think about what I have to put up with in life."

Predictably, two shrinks say Fujii is stressed out and feeling down and, naturally, suffers from some type of personality disorder, though the mindreaders can't agree which one.

The same old script.

The prosecutor, speaking on behalf of an enraged public, says Fujii "sacrificed her own flesh and blood" to satisfy "superficial pleasure."

Fujii could never even tell the authorities the truth.

The police couldn't find Gemini, and Fujii spun ridiculous yarns including telling detectives she double-bagged her child and threw the three-month-old's body in the Bow River.

Divers went down, Gemini's body was never found and Rocks surmises she tossed her own baby in a trash bin.

"She told us stories and she kept changing her story. This one is a real stranger to the truth. Her parents were sending her money. But she conned her parents. She wasn't at college. She was partying. Her parents didn't even know the babies existed," says Rocks.

Fujii finally faced a court in Calgary and in 2002 got eight years for the two counts of manslaughter, but after seeing 30 months taken off her sentence for 15 months in custody, the killer netted only five-and-a-half years.

The judge said Fujii's actions were "cruel and heartless," but also found "courts have recognized the diminished responsibility of parents who have committed such offences when suffering from depression or other mental disorders."

Therefore, five-and-a-half -- or less than three years a child.

A couple years ago, Fujii appeared before the national parole board talking the talk and saying sorry and wishing she had been a better mother. Even the board, suckers for sob stories, determined this woman possessed "limited insight into the factors that led to the offence."

Now, Fujii is being released under rules allowing her to serve the last third of her sentence on the outside. Rocks, who is now retired and works as a private eye, wants to point out detectives Robin Greenwood and Roy Fitzpatrick did "a bang-up job" on the case. As for Fujii walking free ....

"The laws are made by the people. I accept it. I just hope she doesn't have any more children."

[divx]

You think this guy who murdered an 11 year old girl deserves to live?
:confused:
Doesn't matter what we think, no death penality here, because it's too expensive.

[divx]

Not true. Life in prison in Canada means exactly that, life! This guy will have no release date, ever. His Warrant Expiry Date (which is his release date) is at the end of his natural life.
He can get parole though, but people who are serving life sentences often don't get parole for 15-25 years. He's eligible for parole after 10 years, but I assure you he will not get it.

As for him getting brutalized in jail, don't count on it. Yes, he will likely be coming to Kingston Penitentiary and I will likely have t babysit his ass every day, but he will be kept in segregation and will never be amongst other inmates. He'll be kept safe behind a solid door at all times. Other inmates may kick or punch the door, or yell things at him as they walk by, but they won't be able to get at him.

He'll sit in his cell for 23 hours a day, watching TV (did I mention they get all the movie channels), listening to music on his stereo and playing Playstation. He'll get his free three meals every day, free healthcare and dental work, etc. If that isn't enough, he'll be given $90 every two weeks to spend on whatever he wants, including cigarettes, pop, chips, chocolate bars, etc.
The system is a joke!
Still cheaper than death sentance, and that's all it matters to the government. They only see $$$.

[keanefan]

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2006/05/09/1571236-cp.html

Guilty plea in Zhang case

By GREGORY BONNELL

BRAMPTON, Ont. (CP) - Cecilia Zhang suffocated while struggling in the arms of her killer, a foreign visa student so "desperate" to remain in Canada that he snatched the little girl from her home as her parents slept nearby, intent on funding a sham wedding with ransom money.

The tragic confluence of events that culminated in the nine-year-old's death in October 2003 was laid bare Tuesday in a Brampton, Ont., courtroom as Min Chen pleaded guilty to second-degree murder and accepted a life sentence.

The slender, bespectacled 23-year-old visa student from China hung his head in the prisoner's box as heart-wrenching victim impact statements from Zhang's parents were shown on video monitors.

"I have lost my only flesh and blood," a distraught Sherry Xu said of her "beloved" daughter. "Where is she? She is lying in a cold grave. The warmth of spring cannot awaken her."

Raymond Zhang, who along with his wife was too grief-stricken to attend court, said "life has become an endless nightmare."

"The tragedy has become a scar permanently carved on hearts of everyone in our whole family," Zhang said. "Our love and our hope in life vanished instantly."

Chen, originally charged with first-degree murder in the death of the gifted Grade 4 student, spoke only briefly at the end of sentencing submissions, offering his "apologies" to the Zhang family.


"I'm very sorry for what happened," Chen said before being led from court.

The little girl's disappearance shocked Toronto residents, particularly the Chinese community, which led a drive to raise tens of thousands of dollars in reward money for her safe return.

"This crime has had a profound effect on this community ... it cannot forget," Crown prosecutor Stephen Sherriff told the court. "We had nine months of public terror."

Chen's surprise plea came on the first day of his trial and included an agreed statement of facts outlining how his scheme to remain in Canada ended in murder.

The Zhang family had long rented out rooms in their Toronto home to foreign students, and it was through one of those tenants, a young woman, that Chen met the family.

Chen had seen Cecilia on only two occasions before his friend, who was not implicated in the crime, moved out of the Zhang home some six months before the girl went missing.

Failing in his studies and fearful he would have to return to China in shame, Chen agreed to a marriage of convenience to secure permanent residency. The price tag was $25,000.

In the dark, early hours of Oct. 20, 2003, Chen broke into the Zhang residence with the intention of kidnapping Cecilia for ransom.

"I blamed myself," Raymond Zhang said in his statement. "What if I had locked the window? What if I had set up the alarm? My mind was so tortured that ... I had to rely on medicines to pull me out of the deep depression."

Chen planned to imprison the child in the trunk of his car, make the ransom demand and get the money all within one day.

After entering the house, Chen encountered Cecilia - clad only in a purple towel - in the hallway outside her room. Fearful the child would scream, Chen grabbed her around the neck and clamped his hand over her mouth.

When she struggled, he wrapped the towel around her head and fled with her to his car. Cecilia had stopped struggling by the time they reached the vehicle. Her body was placed in the trunk and Chen drove away, stopping only once to check on her condition.

Believing she was dead, he disposed of the body in a heavily wooded ravine in Mississauga, west of Toronto. Her skeletal remains were found in March 2004.

"She was abandoned in the wilderness by her murderer and was covered by snow for 161 days," Xu said in her video statement, which clearly showed where the tape had been stopped and started again as she broke down weeping.

"How many years of imprisonment must a killer serve in order to be equal to that?"

While Chen's plea came with an automatic life sentence, Justice Bruce Durno will decide Friday how much time the young man must serve before becoming eligible for parole.

Crown prosecutor Stephen Sherriff, in telling the court that Chen's abduction plan was "cold, callous and calculated," requested that 17 to 20 years be served before parole is an option.

Defence lawyer John Rosen told the court that the murder was "spontaneous, unexpected, unplanned" in asking for a maximum of 12 years before parole eligibility.

"Yes, he is a coward," Rosen told the court. "We don't send people to jail for extra years because they're cowards."

When Chen was arrested on July 2, 2004, his student visa was about to expire. The former Seneca College student had quit school several months earlier.

[keanefan]

After entering the house, Chen encountered Cecilia - clad only in a purple towel - in the hallway outside her room. Fearful the child would scream, Chen grabbed her around the neck and clamped his hand over her mouth.

When she struggled, he wrapped the towel around her head and fled with her to his car. Cecilia had stopped struggling by the time they reached the vehicle.

why would the girl be clad only in a towel in the hallway?

it sounds like everyone was sleeping so why was she taking a shower when logically she would be sleeping like everyone else in her family.

little kids don't get up to take a shower when their parents are sleeping. assuming that he entered the house around 2 am - 5 am.

[fakishan]

so much misinformation and hearsay in this thread.

the thread is dead.

[Bordello]

so much misinformation and hearsay in this thread.

the thread is dead.
Why don't you lock it then? Oh wait...

If you're looking for facts, then RFD is not the place to be.

[Crotchety Old Man]

So the story turns out to be quite a bit different from the media hysterics - still a tragic story, but once again the media circus veers far from reality. Oh well, reality's never gonna sell enough soap and Hummers.

[UrbanPoet]

He'll get brutalized big time, I heard that criminals don't take too lightly to others hurting children, apparently it's one of their codes. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Shaner will probably make acomment on this.

But good job to my boys in blue. They finalyl caught this perp and brought him to justice.

Good guys 1.
Bad guy 0

[UncleSteve]

why would the girl be clad only in a towel in the hallway?

it sounds like everyone was sleeping so why was she taking a shower when logically she would be sleeping like everyone else in her family.

little kids don't get up to take a shower when their parents are sleeping. assuming that he entered the house around 2 am - 5 am.

According to the Agreed Statement of Facts, Cecilia normally slept in the nude (page 4, point 17).

The full statement is here (19 pages, pdf):

http://www.thestar.com/static/PDF/060509zhangfacts.pdf

Oh, and his time won't be over when he leaves Canadian prison and gets deported; the statement also notes that he faces arrest for the crime upon his arrival in China (point 87, page 19).

[UrbanPoet]

According to the Agreed Statement of Facts, Cecilia normally slept in the nude.

The full statement is here (19 pages, pdf):

http://www.thestar.com/static/PDF/060509zhangfacts.pdf

Oh, and his time won't be over when he leaves Canadian prison and gets deported; the statement also notes that he faces arrest for the crime upon his arrival in China.

he's gonna get hurt real bad.

[x86asm]

Looking at the expression on his face in the court sketches I kind of feel sorry for the guy. He seems to have did it out of desperation (not sympathisizing with him though).

[Sajjad]

Looking at the expression on his face in the court sketches I kind of feel sorry for the guy. He seems to have did it out of desperation (not sympathisizing with him though).

Very very very slightly agree that he screwed up, big-time.
After reading the document (and from most news) it seems that he wanted to kidnap her, to obtain a $25,000 ransom, all in the same day. But he accidentaly killed her by suffocating her (maybe for too long).

[B40]

Just noticed he plead guilty to 2nd degree murder.. that might have been the deal - plead guilty to 2nd degree or get tried for 1st degree.

[B40]

The maximum penalties for murder are:

* first degree murder - mandatory life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for 25 years (can be paroled under the Faint-Hope Clause after 15 years imprisonment, but such a reduction is rarely given and is not available for multiple murders)
* second degree murder - mandatory life imprisonment without the possibility of parole for 10-25 years (parole eligibility determined by the judge at sentencing) (exception: if the person had committed another murder in their past, parole eligibility is 25 years)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder#Canada

From the article posted above, "Defence lawyer John Rosen told the court that the murder was "spontaneous, unexpected, unplanned" in asking for a maximum of 12 years before parole eligibility."

So if he didn't plead guilty.. he would have been tried and probably convicted of 1st degree murder - with no eligibility of parole for 25 years.

[maebach]

I think he should be punished with a long imprisonment, and then deported since he'd of failed his visa requirements. I'm sure china or whatever is very accepting of loosers coming back with a criminal record ;)

The death penalty should be reserved for those that cannot be saved. Mainly "repeat offenders" of violent crime.

You're simpleton view of killing of undesirables doesn't work, and that's because your mind can't grasp as to why violent crime is commited. Give the penal system time to mature. I believe one day, we'll declare prisoners non-citizens and put them to slave labour for the betterement of the civilized world. Perhaps in mining colonies on Mars or for medical testing :cheesygri

But he will be feeding off our taxes for the rest of his life, a damn chinese mess-up who is worth nothing here, will be fed and kept from our money. I say the deport him and let the chinese gov't handle, Im sure they'd find a better way.

[UncleSteve]

So if he didn't plead guilty.. he would have been tried and probably convicted of 1st degree murder - with no eligibility of parole for 25 years.

The Statement of Facts, on page 18 states "the prosecution faced a real prospect of acheiving only a conviction for manslaughter".

[B40]

The Statement of Facts, on page 18 states "the prosecution faced a real prospect of acheiving only a conviction for manslaughter".

What would they have tried him for though? Obviously he would have been tried for 2nd degree murder or higher... or it makes no sense for him to plead guilty to 2nd degree murder...

What is the other incentive? Show remorse and hope to get earlier parole?

[UncleSteve]

What would they have tried him for though? Obviously he would have been tried for 2nd degree murder or higher... or it makes no sense for him to plead guilty to 2nd degree murder...

What is the other incentive? Show remorse and hope to get earlier parole?

On that one you got me, I must admit. I think he was charged with and tried for 1st degree. Perhaps someone with some legal background can chime in with some information.

[keitaro]

He'll sit in his cell for 23 hours a day, watching TV (did I mention they get all the movie channels), listening to music on his stereo and playing Playstation. He'll get his free three meals every day, free healthcare and dental work, etc. If that isn't enough, he'll be given $90 every two weeks to spend on whatever he wants, including cigarettes, pop, chips, chocolate bars, etc.
The system is a joke!

So that's why he pleaded guilty....lol...how can criminals get all this when we barely have enough money for stuff like health care? And dental care? how can the governement give it to criminals when they don't even give to normal people?

I don't have all the movie channels, a ps2, and I spend less than $90 every two weeks on stuff I want...and I'm a honest, hardworking, law-abiding citizen.

[ronin893]

not funny. obviously you have no idea how ppl with ties to govt officials, people of influence, or ppl willing to bribe are treated in china.Though what you said is true, what makes you think that Chen is a person of any importance? If he had money, he would not have gone to Seneca College. He also would not have agreed to an arranged marriage for $25000.

[ronin893]

When he is deported to China after serving several years in Canada- he will be a free man in China.What's the relevance of the article that you posted? Rie Fujii is from Japan.

[b0rk]

Didn't read any of the posts except the ones on this page above mine. But here's my 2 cents:

Seems like people from certain parts of China are coming up with crazy kidnapping ideas. Who remembers the principal from BC who got kidnapped and later died?

[unleashed]

Hey guys, can someone explain to me why does it cost so much more to give someone the death penalty then life in prison?. I always assumed that the cost of feeding, sheltering, and healthcare expenses for an individual would far outweight just killing him. Any insight would be welcomed.

-Thanks-

[b0rk]

Hey guys, can someone explain to me why does it cost so much more to give someone the death penalty then life in prison?. I always assumed that the cost of feeding, sheltering, and healthcare expenses for an individual would far outweight just killing him. Any insight would be welcomed.

-Thanks-

It takes more evidence to put someone to death than to put someone in jail? You'd have to go over lots of evidence + police time, I'm thinking.

[UrbanPoet]

Hey guys, can someone explain to me why does it cost so much more to give someone the death penalty then life in prison?. I always assumed that the cost of feeding, sheltering, and healthcare expenses for an individual would far outweight just killing him. Any insight would be welcomed.

-Thanks-

its b/c before they get sent to death they gotta go through all the legal troubles. which could take months to years to complete.

During this time all the legal fees, etc. will build up for a astrnomical cosT!

[nx2k]

that reasoning sounds fabricated to me
this guy does sound poor at all if he can afford to study on an international visa and also enroll in McDonald Academy.

It seems rather suspicious that the police revealed nothing on this case whatsoever.

[gman]

that reasoning sounds fabricated to me
this guy does sound poor at all if he can afford to study on an international visa and also enroll in McDonald Academy.

It seems rather suspicious that the police revealed nothing on this case whatsoever.

Does or does not?

It is not hard to pretend to be able to afford to study on an international visa.

[gman]

Didn't read any of the posts except the ones on this page above mine. But here's my 2 cents:

Seems like people from certain parts of China are coming up with crazy kidnapping ideas. Who remembers the principal from BC who got kidnapped and later died?

I remember the principal in Toronto (or I thought it was in Toronto) who got kidnapped by 2 chinese students and later died.

[keanefan]

What's the relevance of the article that you posted? Rie Fujii is from Japan.

He is from China. Killed a 9 year old by suffocation. Will probably serve 10 - 15 years in Canada. Then be deported to China.

She is from Japan. Killed her 2 children by starvation and dehydration. Received 8 year sentence. Light sentence= post-partum depression excuse. In prison for about 5-6 years. Right now- is being deported to Japan. If she comes back to Canada- she has to inform parole board that she is back in Canada.

just interesting that she received such a light sentence for letting 2 kids die.

they both have one thing in common- they both will be deported back to their home countries. That happens to all foreign criminals.

I'm surprised that criminals are allowed to come back to Canada
Reading the baby killer articles- it sounds like criminals are allowed to come back to Canada.

[keanefan]

criminals allowed to come back to Canada?

Japanese citizen Rie Fujii to be deported

May 3, 2006
CALGARY (CP) - A Calgary woman who partied while her two young children were left to die in her apartment is being deported.

The National Parole Board informed Rie Fujii on Wednesday that when her statutory release date kicks in on Monday, immigration authorities will pick her up and begin the process to get her out of Canada.

Parole board regional spokesman Mario Luce, citing privacy rules, would not confirm where Fujii, 28, is being held or to where she will be deported.

But Fujii is a Japanese citizen and the parole information indicates she wishes to be reunited with her family.

If she decides to return to Canada before her sentence expires on March 8, 2008, she must inform the parole board and prison officials as she would then be subject to her parole rules, said Luce.

"We don't have any more authority over the case after March 8, 2008," he added. "That's when the sentence is considered completed."

Fujii has testified that the tragic events of May 2001 began after she broke up with the father of the children in what had become an abusive relationship.

She was in Canada on an expired student visa at the time and had met a man who lived in nearby Cochrane.

She went to see him, leaving the children - one-year-old Domenic and three-month old Gemini - behind for what she said was supposed to be one night.

But when she missed the bus the next day, one day turned into two and then into more than a week as she said she kept thinking the kids would be OK.

When she finally returned, the children were dead.

She placed Gemini in a garbage bag and put her in a dumpster. Her body has never been found. She wrapped Domenic in a blanket and left his body in the apartment and returned to Cochrane.

His decomposing body was discovered days later, when the landlord came to collect rent and was overwhelmed by a sickening odour.

Fujii pleaded guilty to two counts of manslaughter in June 2002. She was sentenced to eight years in prison but was given 30 months credit for timed served.

[Crotchety Old Man]

its b/c before they get sent to death they gotta go through all the legal troubles. which could take months to years to complete.

During this time all the legal fees, etc. will build up for a astrnomical cosT!
Those "legal troubles" are the safety measures built into the justice system to permit fair trials and to prevent the execution of innocent people. It's worth every penny.

[davevr6]

Put him in the general population of the prison. Let him be the "b!tch" & get pounded (in more ways than 1) every day he's in there. When his term is up, send him back to China to face the firing squad so they can sell his organs.

[fakishan]

Those "legal troubles" are the safety measures built into the justice system to permit fair trials and to prevent the execution of innocent people. It's worth every penny.

well said. there's a "cost" to a civilized society and "due process" is one of them.

[sans]

According to the Agreed Statement of Facts, Cecilia normally slept in the nude (page 4, point 17).

The full statement is here (19 pages, pdf):

http://www.thestar.com/static/PDF/060509zhangfacts.pdf

Oh, and his time won't be over when he leaves Canadian prison and gets deported; the statement also notes that he faces arrest for the crime upon his arrival in China (point 87, page 19).

what kind of parents would allow their 9 year old to sleep in the nude? :confused: if true, i find it quite odd and disturbing.

[UrbanPoet]

what kind of parents would allow their 9 year old to sleep in the nude? :confused: if true, i find it quite odd and disturbing.

Its just a kid... Your reasoning is probably the same reasoning as the guy that got arrested for having nude pics of his new born baby in his cell phone.
It could also be a cultural difference. IN asia and Europe kids sleep in the nude all the time.

and maybe its what they describe as nude.
underware and a tshirt could sometimes be described as nude.
Why are you questiing their parenting! there baby girl was killled by some low life >=(

[sans]

Its just a kid... Your reasoning is probably the same reasoning as the guy that got arrested for having nude pics of his new born baby in his cell phone.
It could also be a cultural difference. IN asia and Europe kids sleep in the nude all the time.

and maybe its what they describe as nude.
underware and a tshirt could sometimes be described as nude.
Why are you questiing their parenting! there baby girl was killled by some low life >=(

if the statement is she's nude, i'm to assume they mean t-shirt and underwear?

carrying nude photos of your newborn is one thing, but to let a 9 year old sleep naked is quite another.

it's not even practical. she's asleep, how will father check on her if he hears a strange sound, knock on her door each time and ask? or ask the mother to check?

or will he go in and see her naked body each time he hears a strange sound.

if she's clothed, he could check on her throughout the night if he wants to without waking her. hell, he could even sleep on the floor to watch her. that wouldn't be disturbing.

how many 9 year old sleep in the nude?

i still find it odd and disturbing.

don't tell me you would let your 9 year old sleep in the nude? and how exactly will you check on her to be sure she's safe? by constantly peeping at her each time you hear a strange noise?

wouldn't you be scarring the child mentally by seeing her naked body?

she's nine for christ's sake. you have to draw the line somewhere in terms of seeing her naked body.

[Sajjad]

^some familiies are comfortable with seeing each other nude, refer to family change rooms at swimming pools.

[UrbanPoet]

^

their baby girl was killed...they are trying to find justice and they did.. the suspect pleaded guilty. Leave them alone >=(

[ronin893]

He is from China. Killed a 9 year old by suffocation. Will probably serve 10 - 15 years in Canada. Then be deported to China.

She is from Japan. Killed her 2 children by starvation and dehydration. Received 8 year sentence. Light sentence= post-partum depression excuse. In prison for about 5-6 years. Right now- is being deported to Japan. If she comes back to Canada- she has to inform parole board that she is back in Canada.

just interesting that she received such a light sentence for letting 2 kids die.

they both have one thing in common- they both will be deported back to their home countries. That happens to all foreign criminals.

I'm surprised that criminals are allowed to come back to Canada
Reading the baby killer articles- it sounds like criminals are allowed to come back to Canada.You made a comment that he will be deported to China and that "he will be a free man in China". Next you posted an article about the killer from Japan. I don't see how that article led you to conclude that he will be a free man in China.

[iExcel]

I believe this is the best deal Chen can get out of this case.

If he had gone back to China after the killing, he would be facing death penalty in China. He chose to stay in Canada because he knew that there wouldn't be death penalty here so that he at least can still be alive regardless where he will spend the rest of his life.

The story he gave to the court is a joke. I tend to think the Chens family has spent way more than $25000 on this case. Note that Chen said he was in need of $25000 in order to do some false marriage. Well, it could be true, but I tend to doubt it.

[Crotchety Old Man]

^some familiies are comfortable with seeing each other nude, refer to family change rooms at swimming pools.
ie: Healthy normal families - not the psychologically twisted ones.

[Shaner]

what kind of parents would allow their 9 year old to sleep in the nude? :confused: if true, i find it quite odd and disturbing.

Not everyone on earth is as uptight as some North American families. Nudity is normal to some families. There's nothing sexual about a father checking on his 9 year old daughter who happens to be sleeping in the nude. She'll likely be under the blankets so she'll be covered.
You're making something out of nothing.

Go visit other countries on earth, you'll see how uptight North Americans really are.

[d_jedi]

Eligible for parole in 13 years:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1147438844921&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Seems low to me..

[vladislav]

don't tell me you would let your 9 year old sleep in the nude? and how exactly will you check on her to be sure she's safe? by constantly peeping at her each time you hear a strange noise?

wouldn't you be scarring the child mentally by seeing her naked body?

she's nine for christ's sake. you have to draw the line somewhere in terms of seeing her naked body.

You have major psychological issues, to you nudity = sex and that's how all this pedophile craze starts, you should be careful.

[javaprogrammer]

Eligible for parole in 13 years:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1147438844921&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Seems low to me..

15 years.

[d_jedi]

15 years.
I meant from now.. ie. in 2019.

[emptypocket]

Eligible for parole in 13 years:
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1147438844921&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

Seems low to me..

Yeah it does, but when he gets deported back to China he'll do time there as well.

[keanefan]

this killer received 9 years.

Dragging death driver sentenced to 9 years

The 17-year-old boy convicted in the dragging death of Maple Ridge, British Columbia gas station attendant Grant De Patie has been sentenced to nine years in prison.

Patie was dragged for more than seven km to his death under a stolen car last year after trying to stop the young driver from leaving the station without paying for $12.30 worth of gas.

The teen had been drinking heavily before he and friends stole the car, which was low on gas. They then went to the Esso station where De Patie was working to fill it up, and fled without paying.

The young offender's identity had been under a publication ban during trial. But now he has been sentenced as an adult, his name can be released. He is 17-year-old Darnell Pratt.

Pratt had originally been charged with second-degree murder. He later pleaded guilty to manslaughter.

The Crown had been asking for a 10-year sentence, which would mean a maximum of another eight years behind bars because of time already served. The defence had asked for a sentence half of that.

During the sentencing hearing earlier this year, the Crown cited testimony by witnesses that the young driver had admitted to them that he hit De Patie, and told them he heard the victim's screams coming from beneath the car.

Prosecutor Christopher McPherson described Pratt's actions as the most "wanton, reckless" behaviour imaginable.

In sentencing the 17-year-old to nine years, Justice Lance Bernard called the crime "gruesome and torturous." He also noted that no matter how much time the young offender spends in jail, he will still be a young man, while De Patie will still be dead.

- Victim's parents dissatisfied with sentence -

The prosecutors say the sentence was stiff, noting that a nine-year jail term for a young offender convicted of manslaughter is rare. But Grant de Patie's parents say the sentence isn't long enough to satisfy them.

De Patie's father, Doug De Patie, noted that if Pratt behaves himself in prison, he could be released in as little as three years.

[poedua]

15 years.

13 years

[B40]

13 years

Why are you guys arguing over different interpretations?

He is eligible for parole 13 years from now.

He is eligible for parole 15 years from his sentence.

He has already served 2 years in jail since being arrested.

Is it that hard to understand? :rolleyes:

[iExcel]

Yeah it does, but when he gets deported back to China he'll do time there as well.
Unfortunately, that would be unlikely.

[poedua]

Why are you guys arguing over different interpretations?

He is eligible for parole 13 years from now.

He is eligible for parole 15 years from his sentence.

He has already served 2 years in jail since being arrested.

Is it that hard to understand? :rolleyes:

I thought he got his sentence today...making him eligible for parole 13 years from now ( today ) ...not " eligible for parole 15 years from his sentence " ( which is today ).

[B40]

I thought he got his sentence today...making him eligible for parole 13 years from now ( today ) ...not " eligible for parole 15 years from his sentence " ( which is today ).

15 years from when he started serving his sentence which was two years ago.

I'm not going to argue semantics with you. If you have nothing to contribute to this thread, then don't post in it. We don't need useless two word posts like "13 years"

[d_jedi]

this killer received 9 years.
Holy @()$0.. that is outrageous. I remember hearing about this one - what a despicable person.. he deserved far more time than this.

[poedua]

15 years from when he started serving his sentence which was two years ago.

I'm not going to argue semantics with you. If you have nothing to contribute to this thread, then don't post in it. We don't need useless two word posts like "13 years"

Semantics ? Perhaps. I just assumed a " sentence " was imposed by the court only following a verdict or a plea....not from the time your were arrested awaiting trial after being charged.

But, I'm sure you're right - He is eligible for parole 15 years from his " sentence " And that I'm wrong, and my assumption is incorrect.

He's been charged and in custody since July 21, 2004...........so I simply assumed he's not been serving a sentence since 2004 ....since he was actually sentenced ( to life ) just till this past Tuesday when he pled to second degree murder.

[emptypocket]

Unfortunately, that would be unlikely.

With no legal status in Canada, Chen will automatically be detained for deportation should he ever receive parole, and immigration experts say he would almost certainly be re-arrested and re-tried in China. Upon conviction there, he could receive a lengthy prison sentence up to and including another life term.

Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1147438844921&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154)

[just_For_ipod]

His intent was never to kill Cecilia, it was an accident. So I don't believe it was too light. Don't get me wrong when I say this, its not because I don't care, (I practically cried when I heard the news even though I didn't know her especially when I saw her parents) but because Min Chen was under a very tight situation.
He had failed his studies, had no money left, and was about to be deported back to China. He would have to go back in shame. (This is hard especially since Chinese parents have HIGH expectation.) China is also wrose than you think Kidnapping for ransom I would say is BAD but doesn't deserve as bad as the death sentence (IF we did had this in Canada). But it was accidental, lets say you are driving down the street and you hit someone because you weren't paying attention, does this you deserve the death sentence or life in jail? Obviously something has to be done, like maybe some jail and license taken away.
I am not saying that he doesn't deserve the jail time, but I am saying that his sentence is pretty harsh already. Min Chen should also be to blame for his stupidity, once he found that Cecilia was not breathing, he should have done AR right away or call 911. This way, Cecilia wouldn't have died! Idiot! But then again he couldn't pass his studies so he probably fails in life skills/street smarts.

I am not saying that just because you are in a bad situation you could go and kidnapp people for ransom, neither am I endorsing any crimes.

Please DON"T reply to this and say that I'm crazy.

On another note, someone just died at my school last week, "Frankie Chen", you may or may not have heard this in the news very sad, quite a good person. Rest In Peace Frankie Chen
Link to Toronto Star report: High school rugby player dies (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1146823304259)

[Crotchety Old Man]

His intent was never to kill Cecilia, it was an accident. So I don't believe it was too light. Don't get me wrong when I say this, its not because I don't care, (I practically cried when I heard the news even though I didn't know her especially when I saw her parents) but because Min Chen was under a very tight situation.
He had failed his studies, had no money left, and was about to be deported back to China. He would have to go back in shame. (This is hard especially since Chinese parents have HIGH expectation.) Kidnapping for ransom I would say is BAD but doesn't deserve as bad as the death sentence (IF we did had this in Canada). But it was accidental, lets say you are driving down the street and you hit someone because you weren't paying attention, does this you deserve the death sentence or life in jail? Obviously something has to be done, like maybe some jail and license taken away. I am not saying that he doesn't deserve the jail time, but I am saying that his sentence is pretty harsh already. Min Chen should also be to blame for his stupidity, once he found that Cecilia was not breathing, he should have done AR right away or call 911. This way, Cecilia wouldn't have died! Idiot! But then again he couldn't pass his studies so he probably fails in life skills/street smarts.

I am not saying that just because you are in a bad situation you could go and kidnapp people for ransom, neither am I endorsing and crimes.

Please DON"T reply to this and say that I'm crazy.

On another note, someone just died at my school last week, "Frankie Chen", you may or may not have heard this in the news very sad, quite a good person. Rest In Peace Frankie Chen
High school rugby player dies (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1146823304259)
Well said!

Finally, someone who takes a reasonable approach to viewing the entire situation. Every death is tragic, and this was indeed a particularly sad situation all the way around. It doesn't mean we need to pervert our entire justice system to satisfy our basest blood lust.

[bionicbadger]

if the statement is she's nude, i'm to assume they mean t-shirt and underwear?

carrying nude photos of your newborn is one thing, but to let a 9 year old sleep naked is quite another.

it's not even practical. she's asleep, how will father check on her if he hears a strange sound, knock on her door each time and ask? or ask the mother to check?

or will he go in and see her naked body each time he hears a strange sound.

if she's clothed, he could check on her throughout the night if he wants to without waking her. hell, he could even sleep on the floor to watch her. that wouldn't be disturbing.

how many 9 year old sleep in the nude?

i still find it odd and disturbing.

don't tell me you would let your 9 year old sleep in the nude? and how exactly will you check on her to be sure she's safe? by constantly peeping at her each time you hear a strange noise?

wouldn't you be scarring the child mentally by seeing her naked body?

she's nine for christ's sake. you have to draw the line somewhere in terms of seeing her naked body.

Not all cultures are paranoid about the human body and consider nudity something evil or something to be ashamed of.

In North America is seeing a boob or nipple is somehow considered far worse than brutal graphic violence.

In other countries and cultures there is no hangup regarding nudity, its natural and accepted. In Europe you see whole families at the nude beaches, and the saunas/spas/tanning places are almost all nude and full of people of all ages. In Japan it isn't unusual for families to bathe together, including children up to about 10 years old.

Its only because you and the north american media have imposed and ingrained the idea that nudity is "bad" that the kid would care if someone saw them naked. Didn't you change the kids diapers a few years before?

[sans]

You have major psychological issues, to you nudity = sex and that's how all this pedophile craze starts, you should be careful.

reported for personal attack. let's see if the mods agree.

[Crotchety Old Man]

reported for personal attack. let's see if the mods agree.
Whether it ends up being judged a personal attack or not, it is psychologically sound.

[iExcel]

Toronto Star (http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1147438844921&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154)
I came from China and know this is possible but unlikely. I hope he will be prosecuted by the Chinese govt once he lands on Chinese soil.

[siriuskao]

that reasoning sounds fabricated to me
this guy does sound poor at all if he can afford to study on an international visa and also enroll in McDonald Academy.

It seems rather suspicious that the police revealed nothing on this case whatsoever.

It's very easy for foriegn student to boost up their bank statement balance for the visa application. They can borrow from friends and family and get the bank statement printed, then withdraw and return all the money after they submit the application. Once they arrive, they can work on campus legally and/or off-campus illegally.

Plus most likely his parents were paying for the tuition therefore coming up with 25k extra cash is not easy.

[B40]

I came from China and know this is possible but unlikely. I hope he will be prosecuted by the Chinese govt once he lands on Chinese soil.

I guess you know more than the immigration experts because you came from China... immigrations experts think it's "almost certain" iExcel from China thinks it's unlikely :lol:

[gman]

Well, Chinese radio said his mother is a high level police officer. His father is a retired air force officer. They hired people to collect evidence in Toronto to prepare for the trial in China after this guy is released.

[kfc]

what about the theory that the triad was behind this?

And that min chan was only a pawn in all this. I read in chinese news papers that the zheng family had some debts to the triad and they didn't pay them back in time so they orchestrated the kidnapping.

When they didn't pay up they killed the daughter.

Dunno maybe ming chan worked for the triad. Funny how western newspapers present a different view than the chinese ones!!!

[Sajjad]

what about the theory that the triad was behind this?

And that min chan was only a pawn in all this. I read in chinese news papers that the zheng family had some debts to the triad and they didn't pay them back in time so they orchestrated the kidnapping.

When they didn't pay up they killed the daughter.

Dunno maybe ming chan worked for the triad. Funny how western newspapers present a different view than the chinese ones!!!
Agreed, I was going through the site's archives regarding this situation.
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showpost.php?p=853001&postcount=27
But this is definitely great news. I, along with a constable from the Durham Regional Police and two detectives with the Toronto Metro Police questioned a guy back in December about this case. There was some ties that led investigators to believe that he may have known something about the case, although as far as I know, he wasn't ever believed to be the person who did it.

Unfortunately that was my only involvement with that case.

I can't say too much about it or give any names, but I will say this. There's a very good chance that this is mafia related. Regardless of what does or doesn't come out, from the inside information I have acquired, I believe that the triads may very well be involved in this case.

They won't be brought down for it though. The triads aren't stupid. They always have a fall guy. It's the same as pretty much every organized crime group. There's always a fall guy.

[just_For_ipod]

what about the theory that the triad was behind this?

And that min chan was only a pawn in all this. I read in chinese news papers that the zheng family had some debts to the triad and they didn't pay them back in time so they orchestrated the kidnapping.

When they didn't pay up they killed the daughter.

Dunno maybe ming chan worked for the triad. Funny how western newspapers present a different view than the chinese ones!!!

There was a reward for return of Cecilia. I believe it was $25,000 or something.
How much did they owe? $500,000 ?? How much can you owe a triad?
$500,000 worth of guns? or drugs?
Cecilia's parents don't seem to be bad people.
But the dad looks like Chow Yun Fat though.(anyone else thinks the same :lol: )

[Crotchety Old Man]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kfc
what about the theory that the triad was behind this?

And that min chan was only a pawn in all this. I read in chinese news papers that the zheng family had some debts to the triad and they didn't pay them back in time so they orchestrated the kidnapping.

When they didn't pay up they killed the daughter.

Dunno maybe ming chan worked for the triad. Funny how western newspapers present a different view than the chinese ones!!!
Agreed, I was going through the site's archives regarding this situation.
http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showpost.php?p=853001&postcount=27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaner
But this is definitely great news. I, along with a constable from the Durham Regional Police and two detectives with the Toronto Metro Police questioned a guy back in December about this case. There was some ties that led investigators to believe that he may have known something about the case, although as far as I know, he wasn't ever believed to be the person who did it.

Unfortunately that was my only involvement with that case.

I can't say too much about it or give any names, but I will say this. There's a very good chance that this is mafia related. Regardless of what does or doesn't come out, from the inside information I have acquired, I believe that the triads may very well be involved in this case.

They won't be brought down for it though. The triads aren't stupid. They always have a fall guy. It's the same as pretty much every organized crime group. There's always a fall guy.

Hey - I saw that movie on ChinaVision once!

[iExcel]

I guess you know more than the immigration experts because you came from China... immigrations experts think it's "almost certain" iExcel from China thinks it's unlikely :lol:
I wish the immigration "experts" in Canada really understood China.

btw, is there anything laughable in my post? ;)

[kfc]

Cecilia's parents don't seem to be bad people.
But the dad looks like Chow Yun Fat though.(anyone else thinks the same :lol: )

ummmmmmm right beecause you can judget the way someone looks and say whether they're good or bad.. good one :-0

[B40]

I wish the immigration "experts" in Canada really understood China.

btw, is there anything laughable in my post? ;)

Yes there is, well not your post, but the fact you come from China, but have a Chevy avatar :lol: ;)

I just find it hard to believe you would know more than the "immigration experts" and read the article Keanfan posted :)

[iExcel]

Yes there is, well not your post, but the fact you come from China, but have a Chevy avatar :lol: ;)

Oh, I didn't know that makes people laugh. ;)

I just find it hard to believe you would know more than the "immigration experts" and read the article Keanfan posted :)
Well, I didn't say I know more than those experts. What I said was "this is possible but unlikely", based on what I have seen in the 30 years I spent in China. :razz: