Palestinians bomb Tel Aviv Felafel stand. 5 dead.

[lip1978]

http://cfcn.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/scfcn/CTVNews/20060417/palestinians_israelis_060417

A Palestinian suicide bombing on a falafel stall in Tel Aviv has left at least six people dead and more than 35 injured.

The stall is in the busy Neve Shaanan neighbourhood near Tel Aviv's central bus station.

The attack took place as Israeli Jews marked Passover and the new Israeli parliament prepared to hold its opening session.

Both the Palestinian militant group Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
-------------------------------------------------

The target has no military value. It's a felafel stand. Noone there would have been on active military duty. Just families going out for a bite to eat.
And yes, it is interesting that it isn't Hamas, but the other terrorist groups. Terrorists because of the targets IMO.

Happy Passover!

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/WORLD/meast/04/17/telaviv.blast/newt1.israelexplo.m.06.ap.jpg

[lip1978]

In other news
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/16/mideast/index.html

Iran pledges $50 million to Palestinians
Always keeping some interesting friends those Palestinians are. Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War, and now Iran.
I also read that Russia is sending $ too.

[asim99]

sad news

btw, how many palestinians were killed by israelis since the last suicide bombing?

[lip1978]

Good question. I'd be more interested in the percentage breakdown of those Palestinians killed who's actions are related to the daily missile attacks on Israel, or any other attack on Israel, vs. those who were killed at the felafel stand with the same blood on their hands.

At least when Israel attacks, I know they are targetting someone who is directly related to, their War on Israel. I'm always saddened by those killed or hurt who aren't trying to attack Israel.

[asim99]

Good question. I'd be more interested in the percentage breakdown of those Palestinians killed who's actions are related to the daily missile attacks on Israel, or any other attack on Israel, vs. those who were killed at the felafel stand with the same blood on their hands.
yup, you do that...or, may be in the interest of saving time, follow israel's logic of posthumously declaring the dead palestinian civilians and kids as terrorists or their accomplices...

At least when Israel attacks, I know they are targetting someone who is directly related to, their War on Israel. I'm always saddened by those killed or hurt who aren't trying to attack Israel.
i am saddened by loss of all the life in that wretched place

[Blunt]

What the hell do they have against falafels?

[hagbard]

I'm always saddened by those killed or hurt who aren't trying to attack Israel.

I honestly don't believe you. At least the "other side" is honest about what they're doing and what they believe.

[Nemodigital]

Hamas: Tel Aviv suicide bombing was an 'act of self-defense' http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/706793.html Self-defense against the families going out to grab a falafel?

[rb]

Its rather double standard by the Russians and Hamas and all the BS about muslim brotherhood, Russians have been doing far worse to Chechen Muslims then Israel and yet Hamas embraces them - Israel should offer funding to the Chechens and see how the Russians like it

[lip1978]

I honestly don't believe you. At least the "other side" is honest about what they're doing and what they believe.

What are you trying to do? Dehumanize me? Make me into someone who doesn't care if innocent people are killed?
I've never been the target of individualized propoganda before.

You and asim have stopped arguing facts lately. First asim's assertion that a thread with Ha'aretz as a source is a troll post, and now this?

[poedua]

What are you trying to do? Dehumanize me? Make me into someone who doesn't care if innocent people are killed?
I've never been the target of individualized propoganda before.

You and asim have stopped arguing facts lately. First asim's assertion that a thread with Ha'aretz as a source is a troll post, and now this?

You need to adjust your title ..it's actually 9 dead ..50 injured. According to al Jeezera, Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility. From al Jeezera.......

" Palestinian groups had vowed to take revenge after recent Israeli military strikes in northern Gaza that left 18 Palestinians dead. Khaled Abu Helal, a spokesman for the newly elected Hamas government, said the attack was "a direct result of the policy of the occupation and the brutal aggression and siege committed against our people".

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/152283B7-1A26-479A-8D27-9642779A2FBC.htm

[Crotchety Old Man]

Imagine if there was a thread for every Palestinian killed by the Israelis.

The Off Topic forum would be over flowing.

[rb]

What are you trying to do? Dehumanize me? Make me into someone who doesn't care if innocent people are killed?
I've never been the target of individualized propoganda before.

You and asim have stopped arguing facts lately. First asim's assertion that a thread with Ha'aretz as a source is a troll post, and now this?

to some people Jews are Subhumans :mad:

Use the ignore button - I find it works quite well with some posters

[poedua]

Imagine if there was a thread for every Palestinian killed by the Israelis.

The Off Topic forum would be over flowing.

When it comes to alleged terror acts from both sides....head counts of the victims become a moot point IMO. It's the immorality of engaging in terror that is the issue...it is the condemnation of anyone who engages in terror that should be the focus IMO. To allege that both sides engage in terror acts , but that because one side is less proficient at it than the other ...the lesser efficient side might hold some higher moral ground or should be singled out based on death head count as a result ...i.e one side is worse than the other .....is miguided and illogical. Stating that there may be more Palestinians killed by Jews than vice versa.....is no logical way of differentiating the immorality of terror.

[asim99]

You and asim have stopped arguing facts lately. First asim's assertion that a thread with Ha'aretz as a source is a troll post, and now this?
i consider that very irresponsible thing to say...my assertion about the trolling nature pertained to the silly comments by the OP of that thread, and you know that (unless you chose to ignore what i wrote there)

it is facts that liberate me from propaganda of israeli apologists...fact that palestinians have been pushed against the wall, literally and proverbially...their massacre continues with an overwhelming force...five palestinian children get killed for every israeli child, three palestinian civilians get killed for every israeli...

i do not condone palestinian bombings of israeli civilians...rather, i am in favor of equipping them with proper missiles and bombs so they can traget israeli military and government establishments

i feel sad for seeing all these israeli deaths today, and sad knowing that israel will use it as an excuse to murder 3-5 times more palestinians

[asim99]

Imagine if there was a thread for every Palestinian killed by the Israelis.

The Off Topic forum would be over flowing.
well said.

[Nemodigital]

i consider that very irresponsible thing to say...my assertion about the trolling nature pertained to the silly comments by the OP of that thread, and you know that (unless you chose to ignore what i wrote there)

it is facts that liberate me from propaganda of israeli apologists...fact that palestinians have been pushed against the wall, literally and proverbially...their massacre continues with an overwhelming force...five palestinian children get killed for every israeli child, three palestinian civilians get killed for every israeli...

i do not condone palestinian bombings of israeli civilians...rather, i am in favor of equipping them with proper missiles and bombs so they can traget israeli military and government establishments

i feel sad for seeing all these israeli deaths today, and sad knowing that israel will use it as an excuse to murder 3-5 times more palestinians
By "murder" you mean hunt down those on their way to blow up more civilians?

[poedua]

well said.

..you just don't get it...do you.

[Happy13178]

By "murder" you mean hunt down those on their way to blow up more civilians?

As opposed to the legitimate killings of all the Israeli victims, no doubt.

[lip1978]

it is facts that liberate me from propaganda of israeli apologists...

To put that forward as a point of view allows me to say all of your threads are anti-Zionist propoganda. It's not fair for a proper discussion. It gets us nowhere.
I know you feel badly and don't agree with acts like today. I hope you know I feel sorry for all the innocents lost on the Palestinian side. It still stings that hagbard would insinuate that I don't.

[Crotchety Old Man]

By "murder" you mean hunt down those on their way to blow up more civilians?
Sure, if by "hunting down those on their way to blow up more civilians", you mean a nine-year-old girl killed by artillery shells in her home:

LONDON, April 14, 2006 (WAFA (http://english.wafa.ps/body.asp?id=5993))- Amnesty International called on the Israeli army to end immediately its air bombardments and shelling of civilian residential areas in the Gaza Strip.

At least two Palestinian children have been killed... [including]...Hadeel Ghaban, a nine-year-old girl, was killed on April 10, 2006 when Israeli troops fired artillery shells at her home in the northern Gaza Strip town of Beit Lahia. The child's mother and a dozen of her siblings and other relatives, including several children, were injured in the attack.

Amnesty criticised expressions of regret by Israeli army and government officials for the killings of Palestinian children and other bystanders, and described them as "ring hollow," since repeated attacks by Israeli troops on densely populated residential areas continue to claim the lives of Palestinians, including children, in situations where they pose no threats to the lives of Israelis.

[fakishan]

..you just don't get it...do you.
I wonder if you do.

[Crotchety Old Man]

I wonder if you do.
poedua is the poster who's only comment in a post in another thread on the death of Palestinian children was: "LOL".

[poedua]

I wonder if you do.

I've said ...that comparing head counts of dead when it comes to alleged acts of terror is illogical since both sides are guilty to choose to act immorally - i.e they knowingly choose terror. So when asim99 continually alleges that the death count is higher for Palestinians than for Jews....I am at a loss as to what point he is trying to make ....death counts don't make one side any more eveil or immoral than the other when both sides choose the same mehtods and rationale for attack.

That's why I said asim99 " doesn't get it " ...he seems to continue to think morality of one side versus the other is a function of some of sliding scale death counts. That's illogical.

[Crotchety Old Man]

I've said ...that comparing head counts of dead when it comes to alleged acts of terror is illogical since both sides are guilty to choose to act immorally - i.e they knowingly choose terror. So when asim99 continually alleges that the death count is higher for Palestinians than for Jews....I am at a loss as to what point he is trying to make ....death counts don't make one side any more eveil or immoral than the other when both sides choose the same mehtods and rationale for attack.

That's why I said asim99 " doesn't get it " ...he seems to continue to think morality of one side versus the other is a function of some of sliding scale death counts. That's illogical.
From what I've read from asim99 (except on a rare occasion when he let's his emotions get the better of him), I would say he is only looking to have Israelis recognized as equals in the Middle East killing contest.

[poedua]

poedua is the poster who's only comment in a post in another thread on the death of Palestinian children was: "LOL".

Nice try. I don't think so.

Why don't you paste in my explantion that I already gave to you the last time you made this ridiculous accusation - and your reply.

[poedua]

From what I've read from asim99 (except on a rare occasion when he let's his emotions get the better of him), I would say he is only looking to have Israelis recognized as equals in the Middle East killing contest.

fair enough.

We know both sides kill each other ( albeit with different methods ) - he alleges both sides use terror - again what relevance is there to death counts if this premise is accepted ?

What does citing a death count prove ?

Tell me Crotchety Old Man - I think citing death counts as asim99 is constantly doing is irrelvant and a moot point ...meaningless...to the central issue. That is, the issue that all terrorism is immoral and indefensible. Killing twice as many as your opponent does isn't indicative of any greater or lesser evil IMO.

Would you agree or disagree ? Is citing death counts stemming from terror relevant or not in your view ?

[lip1978]

poedua is the poster who's only comment in a post in another thread on the death of Palestinian children was: "LOL".

And the current holder of the "Taking things out of context award" is.... Crotchety!

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3118962#post3118962

He wasn't laughing at the deaths... he was laughing at the anti-Zionist propoganda.

[poedua]

And the current holder of the "Taking things out of context award" is.... Crotchety!

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3118962#post3118962

He wasn't laughing at the deaths... he was laughing at the anti-Zionist propoganda.

Thanx lip1978

[asim99]

To put that forward as a point of view allows me to say all of your threads are anti-Zionist propoganda. It's not fair for a proper discussion. It gets us nowhere.
I know you feel badly and don't agree with acts like today. I hope you know I feel sorry for all the innocents lost on the Palestinian side. It still stings that hagbard would insinuate that I don't.
let me be clear a bit, when i say 'israeli apologists', i do not mean you...you do seem to realize that it is a complex issue, and do not put the entire blame on the palestinians (as i understand it)...so do not take it personally...it is not intended for you, but rather some radical supporters of israeli oppresion who see absolutely nothing wrong, whatsoever, in the hard-handed actions of that state...even i do not go that far in condoning the actions of palestinian radical groups...

my support for palestinian cause is not unqualified, however tragically, the support of these israeli apologists for the cause of israel seems totally unqualified

[Crotchety Old Man]

fair enough.

We know both sides kill each other ( albeit with different methods ) - he alleges both sides use terror - again what relevance is there to death counts if this premise is accepted ?

What does citing a death count prove ?
Palestinian deaths are rarely covered by the media to the extent Israeli deaths are - if one were to just read mainstream media, you would not be aware that so many Palestinians were being killed.

[asim99]

And the current holder of the "Taking things out of context award" is.... Crotchety!

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3118962#post3118962

He wasn't laughing at the deaths... he was laughing at the anti-Zionist propoganda.
hmm...his "lol" comment meant he was "laughing was at the anti-zionist propaganda", my 'troll' comment meant i had "stopped arguing facts lately"...at least try to appear even-handed, lip1978, will ya? ;)

[Crotchety Old Man]

And the current holder of the "Taking things out of context award" is.... Crotchety!

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3118962#post3118962

He wasn't laughing at the deaths... he was laughing at the anti-Zionist propoganda.
Thanx lip1978
I can't say that you Israeli apologists don't stick together.

[asim99]

From what I've read from asim99 (except on a rare occasion when he let's his emotions get the better of him), I would say he is only looking to have Israelis recognized as equals in the Middle East killing contest.
i think you said it better than i could've

[poedua]

Palestinian deaths are rarely covered by the media to the extent Israeli deaths are - if one were to just read mainstream media, you would not be aware that so many Palestinians were being killed.

So, are you suggesting that al Jeezera also " under reports " Palestinian deaths too ...or just sources like the BBC / Guardian do ? How can that be ?

With the internet information so readily and quickly availalbe...i.e al Jeezera ...aren't all Palestinian deaths reported factually and almost in real time ?

[poedua]

I can't say that you Israeli apologists don't stick together.

Oh please. Sigh. You're doing it again..I simply thanked him for clarifying my reply and having the foresight to at least include the link of the thread...I would have thanked any poster who did that.

It has nothing to do with allegedly being an Israeli apologist or not....it was a compehension issue ...you simply misinterpreted the post ...nothing beyond that.

[Crotchety Old Man]

So, are you suggesting that al Jeezera also " under reports " Palestinian deaths too ...or just sources like the BBC / Guardian do ? How can that be ?

With the internet information so readily and quickly availalbe...i.e al Jeezera ...aren't all Palestinian deaths reported factually and almost in real time ?
Courtesy of www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com):

main·stream P Pronunciation Key (mnstrm)
n.
The prevailing current of thought, influence, or activity: “You need not accept the nominee's ideology, only be able to locate it in the American mainstream” (Charles Krauthammer).

adj.
Representing the prevalent attitudes, values, and practices of a society or group: mainstream morality.

[poedua]

Courtesy of www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com):

Thanks for the definition.

Still curious, are you suggesting that al Jeezera also " under reports " Palestinian deaths too ...or just sources like the BBC / Guardian do ? How can that be ?

With the internet information so readily and quickly availalbe...i.e al Jeezera ...aren't all Palestinian deaths reported factually and almost in real time ?

thoughts ?

[poedua]

i think you said it better than i could've


....which isn't saying much. :)

[fakishan]

I've said ...that comparing head counts of dead when it comes to alleged acts of terror is illogical since both sides are guilty to choose to act immorally - i.e they knowingly choose terror. So when asim99 continually alleges that the death count is higher for Palestinians than for Jews....I am at a loss as to what point he is trying to make ....death counts don't make one side any more eveil or immoral than the other when both sides choose the same mehtods and rationale for attack.

That's why I said asim99 " doesn't get it " ...he seems to continue to think morality of one side versus the other is a function of some of sliding scale death counts. That's illogical.
Your mistake was thinking asim suggested one side was good and the other evil. There's no morality to be found in this conflict. You assumed to much based on your own prejudices and bias.

Both are rotten apples, but if we don't frown upon both, this will only escalate. Since western goverments choose to frown on their allies' ennemy, I think it's only fair that someone offer their support to the other side. It's not like Israel has a hard time thriving as an economic and military force.

I value human lives, may it be Palestinian, Canadian or Inuit. I know that every war-torn palestinian/israeli baby has the same potential as a canadian one. Once you accept both are equals, you cannot only side with one side unless you hate the other.

Israel's borders are only getting bigger, and the Palestinian death toll by Israeli weapons's fire is only rising. That says it all as where to popular support should lie.

There's just too much info on Israeli aggression, while the only thing Palestinians can do it is blow themselves up.

Besdies the curfews, targeted assasinations that the world condemns, Israel also uses revenge tactics on civilians (demolishing of homes, uprooting trees), and protects it's military-armed settlers when they open fire on Palestinians and allege the IDF shot and killed suspected terrorists.

Israeli settlers in the Occupied Territories have stepped up attacks against Palestinians and are waging a campaign of intimidation against international and Israeli human rights activists. Their aim is to eliminate the presence of witnesses to their attacks, thereby depriving the local Palestinian population of this only form of limited protection.

Two US citizens, members of the Christian Peacemaker Team (CPT), were assaulted on 29 September by masked Israeli settlers who beat them with clubs and chains as they accompanied Palestinian children to school near the Tuwani village, South of Hebron. Kim Lamberty sustained a broken arm and knee and bruising to her face, while Chris Brown was left with a punctured lung and multiple bruises. Members of the CPT and other Non-Governmental Organizations (NGOs) have been escorting Palestinian children to school to protect them from attacks by Israeli settlers.

A group of hooded Israeli settlers attacked Amnesty International delegates and members of the CPT and the Operation Dove NGO on 9 October as they returned from accompanying Palestinian primary schoolchildren back to their home. The attackers first threw stones at the five internationals and then attacked three of them with wooden clubs. An Amnesty International delegate sustained multiple bruises on her back, arm and leg and the Operation Dove member collapsed and had to be taken to hospital by ambulance. On both occasions, the attackers came from the nearby Israeli settlement of Havat Ma’on and returned there after the attacks.
-Amnesty Internationa (link (http://news.amnesty.org/index/ENGMDE150992004)

The flawed mentality of the pro-israel group is, that once the trrorists disarm, Israel will soften it's activities. Remember, when the Palestinians did nothing at all after WW2, they lost everything. Remember how african and serbian forces commit genocide when no one's looking very hard? YOU and I know that jews wouldn't commit outright genocide, but how is a poor Palestinian to know that? They came and took their land while the whole world watched, enlarged their military at such a pace that no one can now rival them in the ME, defied every UN sanction agaisnt them, keep enlarging their borders, protect their "illegal" settlers, and use terror to intimidate them. Such a frightened people cannot be expected to behave like you or I would and give up their only means of self-defence.

It is foolish.

[lip1978]

....which isn't saying much. :)

Oh no! Personal attack... crosses the line. I suggest a quick apology!

[lip1978]

[B]There's just too much info on Israeli aggression, while the only thing Palestinians can do it is blow themselves up.


Good post, except for 1 thing. Palestinians do have a choice. They can come back to the peace table and negotiate. Or else Israel will determine what their state will be.
What gives them that right? The refusal of the Arab states to accept a Palestinian state in 1947 in the same UN Resolution that created Israel.
Is it fair? Probably not, but they gambled that Israel would crumble, and they lost, so I can't really feel bad on a historical level.

Answer: come back to the table, and you'll get lots of $, a bit more land than what Israel's going to give you, and the respect of US and Europe.

[Crotchety Old Man]

Thanks for the definition.

Still curious, are you suggesting that al Jeezera also " under reports " Palestinian deaths too ...or just sources like the BBC / Guardian do ? How can that be ?

With the internet information so readily and quickly availalbe...i.e al Jeezera ...aren't all Palestinian deaths reported factually and almost in real time ?

thoughts ?
Even a seemingly knowledgeable person like Txiasaeia is uninformed about Al Jazeera:
Ah, yes, an op-ed piece from Al-Jazeera. Unbiased and fair reporting at its finest. Kinda like quoting a news article from Fox News and saying, "See? Bush is wonderful!"
Sure, one could argue that almost all true news information is available through various diverse and obscure Internet sources - but that's a long stretch from being reported in the court of public opinion presided over by Canadian mainstream media.

[fakishan]

Good post, except for 1 thing. Palestinians do have a choice. They can come back to the peace table and negotiate. Or else Israel will determine what their state will be.
What gives them that right? The refusal of the Arab states to accept a Palestinian state in 1947 in the same UN Resolution that created Israel.
Is it fair? Probably not, but they gambled that Israel would crumble, and they lost, so I can't really feel bad on a historical level.

Answer: come back to the table, and you'll get lots of $, a bit more land than what Israel's going to give you, and the respect of US and Europe.

If Israel offered that on the international scene, and the Palestinians refused, support for them would drop real fast. So, go ahead, convince Israel to make such an offer. As of right now, Israel said it does not recognize Hamas, and will cease diplomatic ties with any country that talks with Hamas.

I do agree that the arab states had gambled against Israel and lost. I can also understand their rationale, but that's just unfortunate.

My understanding is that after 1947, Israel never made an honest offer.

[lip1978]

My understanding is that after 1947, Israel never made an honest offer.

I believe that Barak's offer of 2000, while far from ideal, was not bad enough to justify Arafat's starting of the 2nd intifada. There was still room to talk.

[asim99]

I believe that Barak's offer of 2000, while far from ideal, was not bad enough to justify Arafat's starting of the 2nd intifada. There was still room to talk.
1. arafat didn't really start intifada, as he did not have much control over the palestinian militants...it was incited by sharon's visit to the temple mount
2. the offer on the table wasn't really as generous as it is made out to be

http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml
Briefly, because we don't have time, there were four key issues at Camp David and at Taba. Number one, settlements. Number two, borders. Number three, Jerusalem. Number four, refugees.

Let's start with settlements. Under international law, there is no dispute, no controversy. Under Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, it's illegal for any occupying country to transfer its population to Occupied Territories. All of the settlements, all of the settlements are illegal under international law. No dispute. The World Court in July 2004 ruled that all the settlements are illegal. The Palestinians were willing to concede 50% — 50% of the Israeli settlements in the West Bank. That was a monumental concession, going well beyond anything that was demanded of them under international law.

Borders. The principle is clear. I don't want to get into it now, because I was very glad to see that Dr. Ben-Ami quoted it three times in his book. It is inadmissible to acquire territory by war. Under international law, Israel had to withdraw from all of the West Bank and all of Gaza. As the World Court put it in July 2004, those are, quote, "occupied Palestinian territories." Now, however you want to argue over percentages, there is no question, and I know Dr. Ben-Ami won't dispute it, the Palestinians were willing to make concessions on the borders. What percentage? There's differences. But there is no question they were willing to make concessions.

Jerusalem. Jerusalem is an interesting case, because if you read Dr. Ben-Ami or the standard mainstream accounts in the United States, everyone talks about the huge concessions that Barak was willing to make on Jerusalem. But under international law Israel has not one atom of sovereignty over any of Jerusalem. Read the World Court decision. The World Court decision said Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory. Now, the Palestinians were willing, the exact lines I'm not going to get into now — they are complicated, but I'm sure Dr. Ben-Ami will not dispute they were willing to divide Jerusalem roughly in half, the Jewish side to Israel, the Arab side to the Palestinians.

And number four, refugees. On the question of refugees, it's not a dispute under international law. Remarkably, even fairly conservative human rights organizations like Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, in 2000, during the Camp David talks, they issued statements on the question of the right of return. And they stated categorically, under international law every Palestinian, roughly five to six million, has the right to return, not to some little parcels, 1% of Israel, which Israel is about — which Israel would swap, return to their homes or the environs of their homes in Israel. That's the law. Now, Dr. Ben-Ami will surely agree that the Palestinians were not demanding and never demanded the full return of six million refugees. He gives a figure of 4-800,000. In fact — I'm not going to get into the numbers, because it's very hard to pin it down — other authors have given figures of the tens of thousands to 200,000 refugees returning. That's well short of six million.

On every single issue, all the concessions came from the Palestinians. The problem is, everyone, including Dr. Ben-Ami in his book — he begins with what Israel wants and how much of its wants it's willing to give up. But that's not the relevant framework. The only relevant framework is under international law what you are entitled to, and when you use that framework it's a very, very different picture.

[lip1978]

1. arafat didn't really start intifada, as he did not have much control over the palestinian militants...it was incited by sharon's visit to the temple mount
2. the offer on the table wasn't really as generous as it is made out to be

http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml

Now that's the type of response I've come to expect. Backed up. Nice.

1. http://www.israelactivism.com/resources/factsheets/factsheets/who_started_the_intifada.asp

I ask you to please read both asim and my links. The truth, as usual, falls somewhere in between. Sharon knew what he was doing, helping give Arafat ammunition for the intifada he had been planning for awhile.

2. It still was Arafat's call to leave the table and re-start the intifada. There was room for negotiation.

[bubble.tea]

I would've thought that off all the low down dirty tricks...destroying the sacred Falaffel stand would've been the line past which nobody would've went.

Please stand for a moment of silence.

[bidwell]

dude you shouldnt joke about this ****. i love a good laugh even concerning serious subjects, but im here in tel aviv now (im leaving tomorrow because of the bombing) and everyone is really sad. you would think they are used it to since it seems to happen quite often but on the way to the airport my driver nearly broke down in tears as he was listening to a talk show on the radio about it....im from vancouver and normally i wouldnt care less about this sorta thing since im so far away from it but when your there it hits a lot closer to home you know... although i sympathize for the palestinians you cant justify this sorta ****.

[Happy13178]

dude you shouldnt joke about this ****. i love a good laugh even concerning serious subjects, but im here in tel aviv now (im leaving tomorrow because of the bombing) and everyone is really sad. you would think they are used it to since it seems to happen quite often but on the way to the airport my driver nearly broke down in tears as he was listening to a talk show on the radio about it....im from vancouver and normally i wouldnt care less about this sorta thing since im so far away from it but when your there it hits a lot closer to home you know... although i sympathize for the palestinians you cant justify this sorta ****.

Clearly you can. Ask Asim99, hagbard, fakishan, etc how.

[Mr._Hankey]

dude you shouldnt joke about this ****. i love a good laugh even concerning serious subjects, but im here in tel aviv now (im leaving tomorrow because of the bombing) and everyone is really sad. you would think they are used it to since it seems to happen quite often but on the way to the airport my driver nearly broke down in tears as he was listening to a talk show on the radio about it....im from vancouver and normally i wouldnt care less about this sorta thing since im so far away from it but when your there it hits a lot closer to home you know... although i sympathize for the palestinians you cant justify this sorta ****.

Did you spot any Israeli peace activists protesting in front of the wrecked stand, against the expected retaliation (which will never occur)? Or am I mistaken and it was another bombing in Tel-Aviv where they were photographed protesting and smiling, meters away from another blown up restaurant, just a few hours after the bombing?

[poedua]

Even a seemingly knowledgeable person like Txiasaeia is uninformed about Al Jazeera:

If you wish to debate ( or take shots at ) Txiasaeia, I suggest you deal with him directly....not thru me.

Sure, one could argue that almost all true news information is available through various diverse and obscure Internet sources - but that's a long stretch from being reported in the court of public opinion presided over by Canadian mainstream media.

I don't consider al Jeezera obscure ...do you ?

[fakishan]

Clearly you can. Ask Asim99, hagbard, fakishan, etc how.

Why me? I never condoned the killing of Israelis? Stop lying and stirring trouble. i guess you're trapped in a mentality that no matter what reasons I bring, if I'm not on your side, I'm the ennemy? Sad.

[Casanova]

this act is as disturbong as when Israelis kill Palestenian children in their homes. I wish the Israili side would condemn the killing of civilians on both sides would condemn these actions instead of defending them.

[Mr._Hankey]

this act is as disturbong as when Israelis kill Palestenian children in their homes. I wish the Israili side would condemn the killing of civilians on both sides would condemn these actions instead of defending them.

Arab children are never killed in their homes, unless terrorists settle in their homes and fire day and night from the windows. No wonder children are killed by stray bullets, that's what the arabs want, to present pictures of dead children on western media. This is what enhances their propaganda.
Israel is the only side that condemns anything. The Hamas government sees all their killings of innocent civilians, as justified.

[Casanova]

Arab children are never killed in their homes, unless terrorists settle in their homes and fire day and night from their windows.
Israel is the only side that condemns anything. The Hamas government sees all their killings of innocent civilians, as justified.

Israel is starving the Palestenians and had been asking for this reaction for a while as I mentionned in my thread 2 weeks ago. as for killing of children asof 2004:


Among these victims, 266 children were 14 or younger while the ages of the remaining 279 ranged from 15 to 18. Moreover, as many as 20,000 Palestinian children were injured, with nearly 1500 sustaining life-long disabilities.

The total number of Palestinians killed by Israel during the current Intifada is around 2700, the vast majority of them civilians.

'Deliberate killings'

Since the outbreak of the Intifada, several human rights organisations have thoroughly investigated the circumstances of thousands of Palestinian civilian deaths, reaching the conclusion that the Israeli army "kills civilians knowingly and deliberately".

One of these organisations is Physicians for Human Rights-USA, which investigated the number of Palestinian deaths and injuries in the fist months of the Intifada.


A total of 266 children killed
were 14 or younger

It concluded that "the pattern of injuries seen in many victims did not reflect IDF use of firearms in life-threatening situations but rather indicated targeting solely for the purpose of wounding or killing".

In some cases, the killing of Palestinian youths by Israel assumes a brazen and dastardly nature.

[Casanova]

Arab children are never killed in their homes, unless terrorists settle in their homes and fire day and night from their windows.
Israel is the only side that condemns anything. The Hamas government sees all their killings of innocent civilians, as justified.


and:

Eyewitnesses reported that one shell exploded in a residential area killing Hadeel Mohammad Ghabin, 6 years old, and injuring at least ten other residents, including children.

Ghabin was killed when a shell, fired by the army, directly struck her parent's house; several members of her family were injured.

http://www.imemc.org/content/view/17964/1/


need more?

[Mr._Hankey]

and:

Eyewitnesses reported that one shell exploded in a residential area killing Hadeel Mohammad Ghabin, 6 years old, and injuring at least ten other residents, including children.

Ghabin was killed when a shell, fired by the army, directly struck her parent's house; several members of her family were injured.

http://www.imemc.org/content/view/17964/1/


need more?

I'm not going to repeat the same stuff I wrote just 2 days ago. It's all pointless anyway.

[fakishan]

stfu Casanova!

Israeli people supporting a goverment that kills innocent Palestinians isn't the same as Palestinians supporting a goverment that kills innocent Israelis
:rolleyes:

[Crotchety Old Man]

I don't consider al Jeezera obscure ...do you ?
In North America? Absolutely.

[fakishan]

I'm not going to repeat the same stuff I wrote just 2 days ago. It's all pointless anyway.

Is that a promise? from now on you will refrain yourself from repeating posts? :lol:

[poedua]

Your mistake was thinking asim suggested one side was good and the other evil. There's no morality to be found in this conflict. You assumed to much based on your own prejudices and bias.

What prejudice or bias ? I've already said terrorism is immoral many many times. I've also said countless times that terrorism - regardless of who carried it out - is immoral and indefensible, whether it be allegedly carried out by Jews or Palestinians...or actually carried out re 9/11, Hiroshima, subway or school attacks etc. There is no logic for asim99 to cite deaths on either side if he is of the view both sides endorse terrorism. It's illogical.

Both are rotten apples, but if we don't frown upon both, this will only escalate.

No argument there.

I value human lives, may it be Palestinian, Canadian or Inuit. I know that every war-torn palestinian/israeli baby has the same potential as a canadian one. Once you accept both are equals, you cannot only side with one side unless you hate the other.

Good point . Both are equals. I agree. That's why I endorse a 2 state solution where they both sides co-exist in peace, and reject any endorsement of the obliteration of Israel as a state. Jews have the same rights as Palestinians ..and vice versa.


There's just too much info on Israeli aggression, while the only thing Palestinians can do it is blow themselves up.

Why don't you think Iran supplies military arms to the Palestinians to " even the odds " against Israel - so suicide bombing is no longer viable as the primary toolor reisitance ?

Besdies the curfews, targeted assasinations that the world condemns,

targeted assasinations have military justification - but only if against combatants

[fakishan]

Why don't you think Iran supplies military arms to the Palestinians to " even the odds " against Israel - so suicide bombing is no longer viable as the primary toolor reisitance ?

Because Israel would invade Iran as it has invaded neighbouring arab countries in the past. Those were somewhat legitimate invasions though. But Israel won't be allowed to invade Iran just because of the ramblings of a few Iranian leaders.

targeted assasinations have military justification - but only if against combatants
What's the point? for 60 years now, new terrorist leaders keep poping up, and every time, innocent bystanders get bombed too. It's not like suicide bombings are stoping neither.

Justified or not, it seems Israel is trapped in a situation it cannot escape, not without surrendering or killing all the Palestinians.

[poedua]

In North America? Absolutely.

Are you suggesting that when there is an Isreali military strike - and Palestinians are killed - thatCanadian media like the Globe, CTV. CBC, National Post knowlingly " under report " the event ? Suggesting there is a anti-Paestinian bias in the Canadian media ?

If such an event occured tomorrow morning - a military strike by israel on Palestinians - who do you think would be best equipped to ensure accurate reporting of the vent reached the West ? What media source would you look to for timely and objective repporting of this event ?

[poedua]

Because Israel would invade Iran as it has invaded neighbouring arab countries in the past. Those were somewhat legitimate invasions though. But Israel won't be allowed to invade Iran just because of the ramblings of a few Iranian leaders.


What's the point? for 60 years now, new terrorist leaders keep poping up, and every time, innocent bystanders get bombed too. It's not like suicide bombings are stoping neither.

Justified or not, it seems Israel is trapped in a situation it cannot escape, not without surrendering or killing all the Palestinians.

fair enough.

[d_jedi]

I condemn this senseless slaughter of innocent civilians in the strongest terms. There can be no doubt that this was a terrorist attack, endorsed by the government of the Palestinian Authority:

Hamas declined to condemn the bombing, calling the attack "self-defense." Hamas cabinet minister Wasfi Kabha said the attack was "in the framework of the legitimate right for resistance."

[Casanova]

stfu Casanova!

Israeli people supporting a goverment that kills innocent Palestinians isn't the same as Palestinians supporting a goverment that kills innocent Israelis
:rolleyes:


Ahh it all makes sense now!!!! :confused: I see the light :idea:

[poedua]

Even a seemingly knowledgeable person like Txiasaeia is uninformed about Al Jazeera:

I do find it interesting that news reports today report that Qatar is giving $50 million to the Hamas led Palestinian government...a day aftet Iran announced plans on giving Hamas's government $50 million as well.

Interesting in that emir of Qatar also funded the very start of al Jeezera itself and that Qatar reportedly still funds al Jeezera to the tune of $30 million or so a year ( as recently as 2004 ).

All of which makes al Jeezera's ability to be neutral and objective - and not be under the influence or at the financial mercy of Qatar in any way - on Middle East issues all the more remarkable. :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jazeera#History

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4917088.stm

[Casanova]

even more interesting is that US central command is in Qatar, I see a big consipracy Poedua, you're up to something :twisted: you are really smart. Come on, you can do better than this.


QATAR - Hosts a mobile HQ for U.S. Central Command; allowed Washington to expand an airfield to handle more combat jets
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/side/1826223.html


S. Moving Central Command Units to Qatar:


The sources said Central Command (CENTCOM) headquarters will start shifting people and equipment to Qatar, a small Persian Gulf state bordering Saudi Arabia, beginning Friday. CENTCOM commands and controls America's military in 25 countries in Central and Southwest Asia, the Middle East and Northeast Africa.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62680,00.html

[Ryan]

Getting a bit too heated and personal. Lock.