Everyone with a GM 3.4 or 3.8 watch CTV late night news tonight

[careener]

There will be an investigative piece about the intake manifold issue affecting the 3.4 and 3.8 l GM engines.

[wing0]

the one about how it cracks? or the one about coolant leaking and eating away the cylinder?

[B0000rt]

What about on my 3100 ;)

[cooljack]

which model does it come with those engine?

[phillbert]

our montana has that engine, and i have heard of all the horror stories from that gasket. i heard it may have something to do with the long life red engine coolant eating away at the gasket. anyways, i should stay tuned to find out more.

[B0000rt]

Ah, so it's Dexacool's fault?

[700mb80min]

I have a 3.1 and a 4.3 .......car and truck respectively . never had a problem with either .first i`ve heard about the 3.8 , too bad.

[xien0n]

It's surprising to hear that the 3.8 might have a problem. That engine has been in use for 20+ years and all I hear is that they are bulletproof.

[B0000rt]

I have a 3.1 and a 4.3 .......car and truck respectively . never had a problem with either .first i`ve heard about the 3.8 , too bad.
If I'm not mistaken the 4.3 V6 is the V6 version of the smallblock, while the 3.4L is just a bored out version of the 3.1L engine.

[odd person]

would a Buick V6-3.8L VIN K be the 3800?

[kbjy11]

i too had the 3.4 L engine.. and had to have the head gasket replaced when I noticed the engine pinging then eventually overheating.

[MrDisco]

interesting..i have the 3800 on my buick and it has an intake manifold issue (hence the need for me to purchase a new vehicle)

[B0000rt]

So whatever applies to the 3400, also applies to the 3100.

Intake manifold gasket eh? I think mine's going soon too. Maybe change that in the summer when I have time.

[tg82]

what are the symptons of a intake manifold crack? (like how can you tell)

I have a 98 Olds Intrigue with the 3800 engine in it.. ive been getting misfires for the past few months that would come and go; vibrations after 3rd gear (before OD) but disappear when cruising.

[marcR]

i too had the 3.4 L engine.. and had to have the head gasket replaced when I noticed the engine pinging then eventually overheating.


Me too....2000 alero...LIM crack, needed to have it replaced as well as the head gaskets. Love GM. I can't see GM doing anything, this went on for years and they've had numerous complaints.

[rks]

The GM 3100 has this issue. The 3.4 is a derivative of the 3.1. It also has the intak manifold gasket leak.

In my 3.1 the anti freeze resevoirs color is now a muddy color cuz the oil and dex cool has mixed. If you look on the net there is a lot of horror stories of the gasket leak. GM has acknowledged there is a problem, and has created a revised gasket. however it costs 700$ in labour to install the part.

gm just lost a customer.



rks

[lurker]

Ok more info on the intake manifold gasket problem is here:

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20060330/whistleblower_gm_060406/20060406/

List of cars affected:


1995-1997 Buick Riviera
1995-1998/2000-2003 Buick LeSabre, Park Avenue
1996-1998/2000-2003 Buick Regal
2000-2003 Buck Century
2002-2003 Buick Rendezvous
1996/1998-2001 Chevrolet Lumina
1998-2003 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
1997-2003 Chevrolet Venture
1999-2003 Chevrolet Malibu
2000-2003 Chevrolet Impala
1995-1998 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight
1995-1998 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
1998 Oldsmobile Intrigue
1996-2003 Oldsmobile Silhouette
1999 Oldsmobile Cutlass
1999-2003 Oldsmobile Alero
1995-1998/2000-2003 Pontiac Bonneville
1997-1998/2000-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix
1996-1999 Pontiac Trans Sport
1999-2003 Pontiac Grand Am
1999-2003 Pontiac Montana
2001-2003 Pontiac Aztec



General Motors Canada encourages any of their customers to contact their Customer Communications Centre at 1-800-263-3777 if they have questions regarding their vehicle or service needs.

[wing0]

1996/1998-2001 Chevrolet Lumina

No 1997??
My grandpa has the 1997...haven't had any problem with the gasket*knock on wood* but what's the reason?

[cooljack]

GM does not plan to issue any type of goodwill action regarding the intake manifold gasket situation

Wow so they admit their cars quality is low.

I feel sorry for anyone has been loyalty to such lame ass company.

[MrDisco]

well sure enough my car is on that list and has those problems. that just bites :(

[FastFokker]

So it's just the gasket on the intake manifold which is causing the issue?

Not that bad of a DIY for a weekend automotive warrior.

[belgiangenius]

There will be an investigative piece about the intake manifold issue affecting the 3.4 and 3.8 l GM engines.

Welcome to GM World. You bought it - you're screwed.

[SkiD]

Wow so they admit their cars quality is low.

I feel sorry for anyone has been loyalty to such lame ass company.

It's not the car quality that is low, it's one part in the engine that is bad (it may be a bad design or it may be a 3rd party manufacturing defect).

It sucks if you happen to have one of the cars affected (I did and had the problem fixed). It would be great if GM repaired a million cars in Canada (would that be about 10 million in the US?) at a cost of roughly 1/2 billion (5 billion in the US?) but it ain't gonna happen with the financial state GM is in.

You have to remember that 1 in 4 cars sold is a GM product and a problem on a shared component like this gives the impression of bad quality because of the quantities involved.

In a perfect world, cars wouldn't have problems, but even Toyota has problems (sludge in their engines, rust in Echos, battery leakage in the prius, etc.) and at some point in future they will also have recalls that reach into the millions as their market share continues to increase.

[kbjy11]

but the difference is that toyota takes care of problems... gm on the other hand knows of the problem and continues to sit on their thumb and smile...

[cooljack]

In a perfect world, cars wouldn't have problems, but even Toyota has problems (sludge in their engines, rust in Echos, battery leakage in the prius, etc.) and at some point in future they will also have recalls that reach into
the millions as their market share continues to increase.

LOL engine seize = bad quality as a whole. I dont know where you get the idea of quality. Bad design -> defect items = bad quality , got it?

And you compare battery leakage to a IMG leakage? How weird, battery leakage can be fixed EASY by better ground wires.

I dont think you have any clue about "quality"

Keep buying GM please

[FastFokker]

but the difference is that toyota takes care of problems... gm on the other hand knows of the problem and continues to sit on their thumb and smile...Hard to say, unless you're an expert in the industry.

It could possibly be that GM is more open about defects and recurring problems, while Toyota hides them and sweeps under the carpet. Who knows.

Yes Toyota does make great products, but to say in this example GM's are junk because a single intake manifold gasket is failing (almost gauranteed to be made by a third party) is inaccurate.

If the vehicle is out of warranty, I don't see why GM would be obligated to fix it anyway.. the part lasted as long as it had to. Now if it's still under warranty and they're not covering the costs of repairs, that's a different story.

[MrDisco]

If the vehicle is out of warranty, I don't see why GM would be obligated to fix it anyway.. the part lasted as long as it had to. Now if it's still under warranty and they're not covering the costs of repairs, that's a different story.

i wouldn't correlate warrenty with how long a part should last. as an example Buick offers a 4 year warrenty, but Chevy offers a 3 year. both lines use the same 3800 engine but you couldn't say the one in Buick is 'better' built then the Chevy version based on the warreny coverage.

but as mentioned by another poster GM won't do anything because they can't afford to. still a class action lawsuit would be an interesting proposition.

[KorruptioN]

It's surprising to hear that the 3.8 might have a problem. That engine has been in use for 20+ years and all I hear is that they are bulletproof.
The 3400 has the LIM issue, the 3800 has the (less common) plastic upper intake issue where it breaks and grenades the head.

[frogger]

IIRC the 3800 had issues when they switched it over to some kind of plastic manifold.

[tg82]

IIRC the 3800 had issues when they switched it over to some kind of plastic manifold.

do we know when that happened? what cars/versions of the car has had that happenned?

i have a 3800 but now i questioning if im pre-plastic or post-plastic.

[SkiD]

but the difference is that toyota takes care of problems... gm on the other hand knows of the problem and continues to sit on their thumb and smile...

Oh really,
Toyota Engine Sludge Problem (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html)

Do you think Toyota will actually admit they have a design problem and fix every engine with a problem out there? No, they will do exactly as GM is doing and only fix the problem for the people that complain loud enough.

LOL engine seize = bad quality as a whole. I dont know where you get the idea of quality. Bad design -> defect items = bad quality , got it?

So I guess Toyota has bad quality because their engines die (see above link)

And you compare battery leakage to a IMG leakage? How weird, battery leakage can be fixed EASY by better ground wires.

Battery leakage = liquid leakage not electricity leakage

I dont think you have any clue about "quality"

I know the difference between "perceived" quality and "real world" quality.

Every manufacturer is going to have quality issues (stop and think about how many pieces make up a car) and if you check industry stats GM does fairly well.

[belgiangenius]

It could possibly be that GM is more open about defects and recurring problems, while Toyota hides them and sweeps under the carpet. Who knows.



^^^^^^^^^^

Unlikely. Everyone I know with a GM has problems. Noone I know with a Toyota has problems.

[konfusion666]

Every manufacturer is going to have quality issues (stop and think about how many pieces make up a car) and if you check industry stats GM does fairly well.

Actually if you honestly think you can equate the number of quality issues that GM has with the number of quality issues that Toyota has... then you must have just flunked out of comedian school or something, because you're obviously trying to make us laugh. :D

[cooljack]

I know the difference between "perceived" quality and "real world" quality.

Every manufacturer is going to have quality issues (stop and think about how many pieces make up a car) and if you check industry stats GM does fairly well.


My bad, i didnt understood batery leakage. Its still a simple replace that doesnt harm the reliabilty of the car, isnt it?

About the engine sluged stories i have no idea and have never heard of it. Frankly my neighbour and my relative both have 2003-2004 Toyota Sienna. They never mention one bit about the problem.

Toyota is still ranked top on the list, and ofcourse its not perfect. Yet i see GM is very far below. ;)

[careener]

You can watch the broadcast here. I'm not sure how long the link will be active.
http://www.ctv.ca/ctvnews (Apr 6 news broadcast)

[KorruptioN]

About the engine sluged stories i have no idea and have never heard of it. Frankly my neighbour and my relative both have 2003-2004 Toyota Sienna. They never mention one bit about the problem.
Probably because they don't know what sludge is to begin with. The 1MZ-FE (3.0L DOHC V6) is notorious for sludging, but not because of a faulty design, but because of owners who neglect to stay ontop of a good oil change schedule. Old oil circulating in the 1MZ produces sludge very quickly. This is also why Toyota often refuses to do warranty work on sludged engines.

[Spidey]

I havent had a problem with mine in the last 5 years. Maybe because I change all the fluids when they say.

[rks]

I havent had a problem with mine in the last 5 years. Maybe because I change all the fluids when they say.

I changed the fluids on mine and had proper oil changes done. The problem is that the dexcool will eat the gasket material because the original gasket is inferior. You will eventually have this problem.

rks

[rks]

Update:

I called 1-800-263-3777. Imentioned the gasket issue on my 1998 lumina with 100K km. The car was fully maintained. The lady that I spoke to said that 'I am sure it was due to a failure' (those were her EXACT words), but she said that she can't do anything to help me. She said that GM can only help owners that are 5 years old or less, and have 100 000KM or less.

Any Idea what I should do?


Rks.

[cooljack]

Update:

I called 1-800-263-3777. The mentioned the gasket issue on my 1998 lumina with 100K km. The car was fully maintained. The lady that I spoke to said that 'I am sure it was due to a failure' (those were her EXACT words), but she said that she can't do anything to help me. She said that GM can only help owners that are 5 years or less, and have 100 000KM or less.

Any Idea what I should do?


Rks.


I think you're stuck. Your best bet is to purchse a new gasket and bring it to an independent mechanic to install (or you can do it yourself but you need proper tools). I also think you MUST do engine flush as well as try SeaFoam to clean all the residue.

I feel sorry for you, this reminds me again not to touch GM vehicles. Bad design is only an excuse.

[cooljack]

You can watch the broadcast here. I'm not sure how long the link will be active.
http://www.ctv.ca/ctvnews (Apr 6 news broadcast)


Are you sure its broadcasting? I only see written reports just as yesterdays.

Oh and ctv website is the worst broadcasting/news site every. I would fire their IT department

[Spidey]

Well this is just great. Having a great day and now my van maybe be blowing up soon.

What a world

[v1perfan]

Whew, I am *so* glad I got rid of our Venture two months ago! I knew about this problem at the time I got rid of it.

I will never buy domestic again for that reason. Also the low resale value doesn't help either.

- Bought the van in 2002 NEW @ $30K.
- Sold the van in 2006 w/85K @ $6K

Yeah, that was a really good investment. :mad:

[Spidey]

Whew, I am *so* glad I got rid of our Venture two months ago! I knew about this problem at the time I got rid of it.

I will never buy domestic again for that reason. Also the low resale value doesn't help either.

- Bought the van in 2002 NEW @ $30K.
- Sold the van in 2006 w/85K @ $6K

Yeah, that was a really good investment. :mad:

I wont be selling ours. I keep vehicles till they are used up then trade them in. Get my moneys worrth.

Speaking of, I still have my 13 year old VW. No reason to sell it

Although when the van does go, we wont be buying another minivan

[careener]

The general advice I've heard from mechanics if you have one of these engines it to pro-actively replace the part (Can cost $600) as a regular maintenance item. Some (not all) suggest replacing the Dexcool coolant with regular coolant. This will require you to replace the fluid more often than the suggested intervals in your owner's manual.

[CompWizrd]

Some (not all) suggest replacing the Dexcool coolant with regular coolant. This will require you to replace the fluid more often than the suggested intervals in your owner's manual.My Dexcool is a lovely orangeish brown right now.

How do I know?

It dumped some all over my driveway tonight, and when I opened the hood, there was a fine rain of coolant coming out of the end of the block.

Yup. Water pump again. I had this replaced about 4 years ago, and its bad again on schedule.

Two 5.7L engines(one was rebuilt, so effectively three), two transmissions, two water pumps, two A.I.R. pumps. In a 10 year old Firebird T/A.

Go Pontiac!

Oh, and in a measure of insanity, it's about 130 dollars USD for a new pump. I was looking up my girlfriends 2001 Malibu LS, and it's 24 dollars for the pump.. and i'm sure it doesn't take the several hours of labour to remove it like mine!

I think I'll have my mechanic replace the serpentine belt while he has it apart, since that's about 70-80,000 km old and due for replacement anyways.

[magical]

Wow, so glad I never bought a GM... actually the last vechile I bought .. a 1993 Ford Tbird had headgasket issues due to Aluminum Head on Cast Iron, and crappy gaskets, although, last I heard ford was real good on fixing the problem if you did get it in time... although my car they never did fix and eventually needed gaskets ... the GM one sounds way worse tho, sounds like they just want to lift up the carpet and sweep it underneath.

I'm happy with my Honda Accord SE-V6 tho ;) .. hopefully she gives me a long life!

[SkiD]

Here is an article on GM quality from here (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060410/BUSINESS01/604100374/1014)


GM's quality quandary
Some General Motors vehicles outrank Toyota's, but a few troubled models reinforce a bad reputation GM fights to change
BY MARK PHELAN
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

April 10, 2006

What GM has done to improve quality
1. Accumulate at least 500,000 miles of test-driving with a fleet of 250 or more vehicles in the last 60 days before a new model goes on sale.
2. Reduce the number of architectures GM develops so engineers can devote more time to each family of vehicles.
3. Engineer vehicles and parts to last at least 200,000 miles; engines and transmissions to last 150,000 to 200,000 miles.
4. Use the same assembly process in all factories.
5. Make quality a top criterion for companies looking to sell GM parts.
6. Reduce visible gaps in interior trim and exterior panels.
7. Improve appearance and feel of interior parts.
8. Share parts across multiple model lines to avoid duplicate testing and development.
9. Acquire and analyze real-time data from test vehicles equipped with the OnStar communications system.
10. Get assembly workers' input during development so vehicles are easier to build.
11. Spend more time training assembly workers.


After General Motors has chased Toyota for more than 20 years, independent quality and reliability surveys finally give GM something to boast about -- but not enough.

The best vehicles GM builds -- models like the Chevrolet Malibu and Tahoe, GMC Yukon and Buick Century -- topped many Toyota models in the respected J.D. Power and Associates initial-quality and long-term dependability studies last year.

"Look at the midsize sedan segment. We own that from a quality perspective," said Bob Ottolini, GM executive director for product development quality. "The Toyota Camry and Honda Accord are below all our recent entries in that segment."

However, while virtually every car and truck Toyota builds gets high marks in influential independent studies like those by J.D. Power and Consumer Reports magazine, a few models with very poor quality -- particularly four minivans that went on sale in 2004 -- torpedoed GM's overall score. Several of the company's most important brands dropped into the category automakers dread and shoppers avoid: below industry average.

If GM can get it right some of the time, why not all the time? Answering that question -- and quickly -- is vital to the company's future as it strives to hold off Toyota, recover from last year's $10.6-billion loss and remain the world's largest automaker.

GM cars -- the Chevrolet Malibu, Malibu Maxx and Impala, Buick Century and Pontiac Grand Prix -- took five of the seven top places among midsize cars in Power's 2005 Initial Quality Study, based on a survey of new-car owners. They finished above the Camry and Accord, both of which have earned sterling reputations for quality and reliability with decades of excellence.

Besides the minivans, GM's vehicles "are doing pretty well," said Neal Oddes, J.D. Power director of product research and analysis. "Across the board, though, the minivans did not launch at all well."

But even a single bad model reinforces the reputation for low quality GM gained in the 1980s, said Chris Denove, coauthor of the new book "Satisfaction: How Every Great Company Listens to the Voice of the Customer."

"The image of GM's vehicles is far worse than the reality," he said. "GM has changed. Some of the best-made vehicles in the world today are being produced by GM. It's paying for the sins of its past."

Denove wrote the book with James D. Power IV of J.D. Power.

"The data show the difference really is perceptual," Denove said. "Every automaker has had some quality glitches. Honda recently had transmission problems, but it got a pass because people expect Hondas to have good quality."

The converse of that is also true, however. Buyers unfamiliar with GM vehicles have come to expect poor quality, and the minivans reinforce the stereotype.

Toyota strives for consistency

Toyota is the industry's benchmark because the quality of its vehicles doesn't vary much from one to the next.

"We strive to get better by reducing variation in our manufacturing," said Kevin Martin, general manager of the quality division at Toyota Motor Manufacturing North America, in Erlanger, Ky. "Everyone can screw in a bolt, but we teach people to recognize when it's misthreaded ... to recognize a fault and keep the problem from ever leaving the factory."

Toyota also benefits from the fact that it has fewer platforms for its vehicles than GM. A platform, or architecture, is a set of parts and systems that form the basis for a range of models. Because Toyota develops fewer architectures, it can spend more time and effort improving each of them. GM has been working for years to reduce the number of architectures it uses. It used to have five architectures for midsize front-wheel-drive sedans, but it has moved to a single platform for all cars like that -- models including the Malibu, Pontiac G6 and Saab 9-3 -- around the world.

Although developing a single top-notch architecture has boosted the quality of many of GM's new models, some vehicles -- notably the minivans -- continue to use old platforms engineered years ago.

"Once GM gets to average reliability on our scores, they seem to take the emphasis off continual improvement," said David Champion, senior director of Consumer Reports' automotive testing center. "We see other manufacturers that are mortified by an average score. It's a different mind-set."

GM takes steps to improve

GM disagrees with that assessment, saying that it has moved from simply fixing things when they break to developing vehicles robust enough to last at least a couple of hundred thousand miles with no defects.

To reach those goals, GM has a more rigorous engineering procedure. Whereas the company used to quit testing vehicles and parts at an arbitrary target, engineers now test them until they fail, and design them to last at least 200,000 miles -- more in the case of vital and expensive parts like engines and transmissions. "We have considerably more vehicles in test fleets now than in the past," Ottolini said. "We're putting 500,000 miles a year on vehicles before they go on sale."

In addition, the company has changed the way it builds vehicles.

"There was a lot of training to build the Malibu," said Raymond Dominguez, an assembly team leader with 36 years' experience at the Fairfax, Kan., plant that builds the Malibu. "The process is a lot better than it used to be. We have carts on rollers to carry heavy parts that we used to have to lift, and electric tools to attach wheels with less mess and strain than the old way."

Lawrence McLuney, another team leader who has been at Fairfax for 36 years, said that "the parts fit a lot better now. The standards are higher today. We're paying more attention now, wearing protectors to cover our belts, rings and watches" so the cars' paint doesn't get scratched.

"The workers here are really proud of the Malibu," McLuney said. "We know we're building a good-quality car."

That's fine for vehicles that are entirely new like the Malibu, Cadillac CTS sport sedan and the Chevrolet Tahoe, GMC Yukon and Cadillac Escalade SUVs that just went on sale, but models like the minivans, which carry over much of their basic engineering from previous vehicles, aren't subject to that painstaking clean-sheet approach.

GM scrimped on minivan development, basing the vehicles on an 8-year-old architecture. The result is a vehicle in which many parts are difficult to install, said Marty Cain, a 29-year veteran who does repair work at the Doraville, Ga., plant that builds the minivans.

"It's a tough vehicle to build," he said. "It's probably been a nightmare for some engineer."

While nearly every assembly-line worker in Fairfax got training to build the new Malibu, minivan assemblers received training only if the part they installed had changed from the old van, said Ernie Burel, a team leader with 29 years' experience at Doraville.

"Some parts fit poorly, and that threw us a curve," he said. "Now we're making our own manuals for how to do each job. It's evolved since the new minivans started" production.

"Every way, we're finding something new."

The vans' low ratings trouble workers at the plant, Cain said.

"It makes you feel bad," he said. "I come in every day wanting to build a good car. I want to leave feeling like I did."

Help may be on the way

Company sources say GM is developing an all-new minivan in its new Lambda family of vehicles that should go on sale around 2008.

GM's major brands are about midway through their vehicle-replacement cycles. That means even if GM gets everything right with its new models, it's saddled with some weak players like the minivans for at least another couple of years.

"I don't understand why one division or platform gets it right and others don't," Champion said. "I have to put it down to management decisions and lack of attention to detail.

"They need the foresight to decide what goes forward, and then they need about seven Bob Lutzes," he said, referring to GM's vice chairman and vehicle-development guru."They need people who will not sign off on a product unless they are committed to making it the best in its class. They need that focus across the line."

In author Denove's opinion, GM needs "to continue to improve their quality, but they also need to become a styling leader so people will want to buy their products even if the quality is perceived as lower. That's what Chrysler did with the 300, and that's how GM can get people into its cars so they can see the quality is fine."

[B0000rt]

"Look at the midsize sedan segment. We own that from a quality perspective," said Bob Ottolini, GM executive director for product development quality. "The Toyota Camry and Honda Accord are below all our recent entries in that segment."
LOL! They own that, and will pwn it soon too!

But good post overall. We were going to buy an '03 TL Type-S Auto the other day. Googled for any problems, and found wayyyyyy to many transmission stories of it going really early in life, so scrapped that.

[MrDisco]

Here is an article on GM quality from here (http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060410/BUSINESS01/604100374/1014)



while i cant disagree with much of the article, the question is long-term reliability, not initial quality scores, which matter. also their styling still leaves a bit to be desired. finally their quality of materials (particularly in the cabin) isn't market leading but average at best.

[frogger]

That article is pretty good, the note about chrysler selling well despite questionable long term quality could apply to makes like Nissan, Mazda, BMW etc too.

[B0000rt]

Looks liek there is a class action lawsuit.

I don't know why it doesn't cover my '94 3100 though, stupid bastards!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000082&sid=aRzsp7mjqYo4&refer=canada

[MrDisco]

i hope it goes through...maybe i can win money to get mine repaired and put off buying a new car.

[Spidey]

Ill be keeping my eye out. Theres no way an engine should do that unless you totally abuse it. If you take care of your motors, things like that should never happen

[nano]

1995-1997 Buick Riviera
1995-1998/2000-2003 Buick LeSabre
1995-1998/2000-2003 Buick Park Avenue
1996-1998/2000-2003 Buick Regal
2000-2003 Buick Century
2002-2002 Buick Rendezvous
1996/1998-2001 Chevrolet Lumina
1998-2003 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
1997-2003 Chevrolet Venture
1999-2003 Chevrolet Malibu
2000-2003 Chevrolet Impala
1995-1998 Oldsmobile Ninety Eight
1995-1998 Oldsmobile Eighty Eight
1998 Oldsmobile Intrigue
1996-2003 Oldsmobile Silhouette
1999 Oldsmobile Cutlass
1999-2003 Oldsmobile Alero
1995-1998/2000-2003 Pontiac Bonneville
1997-1998/2000-2003 Pontiac Grand Prix
1996-1999 Pontiac Trans Sport
1999-2003 Pontiac Grand Am
1999-2003 Pontiac Montana
2001-2003 Pontiac Aztec

[Nathan183]

I brought my car in for maintenance yesterday and was told that the intake manifold needed to be replaced. It's a 2001 GMC Sonoma. It's not on the list. Is it affected by this problem, or was it just a coincidence that they want to replace it on the same day as this lawsuit?

[hightech]

What about on my 3100 ;)

The 3100 Stalwarth engines have piston slap and head gasket issues as well. I have a 2001 Buick Century (Dad's car) and that thing taps like hell in the morning. Mobil 1 helped with that.

[hightech]

Oh really,
Toyota Engine Sludge Problem (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/toyota_engine.html)

Do you think Toyota will actually admit they have a design problem and fix every engine with a problem out there? No, they will do exactly as GM is doing and only fix the problem for the people that complain loud enough.



So I guess Toyota has bad quality because their engines die (see above link)



Battery leakage = liquid leakage not electricity leakage



I know the difference between "perceived" quality and "real world" quality.

Every manufacturer is going to have quality issues (stop and think about how many pieces make up a car) and if you check industry stats GM does fairly well.

Well I received a letter back in 2002 for my 2002 Camry LE V6 that if there is sludge issues, they will fix it for 8 years and unlimited mileage. I just have to show maintenance proof (i.e. oil changes).

I have no issues with my camry. 4 years old, 115,000 KM and runs like a new car. Heck I took a test drive of a Benz and other cars and the engine in my camry is more refined then the Benz, Cadillac V6's.

[hightech]

Probably because they don't know what sludge is to begin with. The 1MZ-FE (3.0L DOHC V6) is notorious for sludging, but not because of a faulty design, but because of owners who neglect to stay ontop of a good oil change schedule. Old oil circulating in the 1MZ produces sludge very quickly. This is also why Toyota often refuses to do warranty work on sludged engines.

Well to those who spend $30K on a car, and cheap out on a $25 oil change, they deserve it. OK, so the 1MZ engine is less tolarant to infrequent oil changes then others. Any car manufacturer, makes engines that can go beyond the normal oil change schedules. For my 2002 Camry LE V6, it is every 6 months or 8,000 KM. I change the oil every 7,000 KM and use Mobil 1 because of the extra smoothness. Now, to those who tend to change the oil every 16,000 KM or more, and the engine sludges up, they want Toyota to pay for the fix? Stupidity should never be rewarded. All this does is jack up the rates and car prices for those who DO follow proper maintenance schedules.

[Carpe Diem]

Anyone know of any new news on this?

I got pouched $3000 due to this defect about a year ago. :(

I needed a Head gasket and exhaust manifold and gasket, It was a real mess in there.

[careener]

There was coverage in the Toronto Star last week.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1146001826525&call_pageid=968350072197&col=969048863851

GM sued in potential class action
$1.2 billion claim in gasket failure
Auto maker vows to fight in court
Apr. 26, 2006. 06:43 AM
TONY VAN ALPHEN
BUSINESS REPORTER


An Oshawa-area driver is suing General Motors for more than $1.2 billion on behalf of Canadian motorists, alleging the auto giant knew about a defective gasket and possible engine damage for years but didn't change the part until 2004.

Ken Stewart of Courtice, east of Oshawa, has filed a claim that seeks class-action status and charges GM was negligent in using defective intake-manifold gaskets on 23 models and hundreds of thousands of vehicles between 1995 and 2003.

The gaskets degraded prematurely and did not seal properly, causing coolant to leak into the engines of GM vehicles, according to the claim.

"Among other consequences, the coolant mixes with engine oil, making the oil ineffective and damaging the engine," the claim said.

"In some cases the engines overheat and seize completely, creating a danger to the operator and occupants," the claim said, adding that stricken vehicles have required "complete engine replacements."

GM spokesperson Stew Low said he was unaware that the auto maker had received a copy of the claim, but the company believes strongly in the quality of GM products.

"We will defend the court action vigorously," Low added.

"Beyond that, we believe the action is a result of a spillover of an overly litigious U.S. system, resulting in a copycat style of action in Canada."

Stewart's lawyers filed the claim in the Ontario Superior Court of Justice earlier this week.

The claim names General Motors of Canada Ltd. and its U.S.-based parent, General Motors Corp., as defendants.

The lawyers will now seek certification of the claim as a class-action lawsuit.

The allegations have not been proved in court.

In the United States, a claim was made in 2004 by a driver on behalf of GM customers over alleged "incompatible" coolant and "failing" gaskets. The action gained certification as a class-action lawsuit in Jackson County, Mo., earlier this year.

Toronto lawyer Colin Stevenson, who is representing Stewart, said it's too early to quantify the size of the claim and damages.

He estimated the problem could have affected about 400,000 vehicles.

He added that an average claim of $3,000 would make the total amount $1.2 billion. The lawsuit specifies the same figure.

As an alternative, the claim seeks damages equivalent to what motorists paid out of their pockets to fix the defects and related problems.


Low, who is GM Canada's director of communications, said recently that engine failures because of the coolant leaks have been rare. He would not disclose numbers.

Low added repair costs have ranged between $750 and $1,100, and not up to $3,000.

Furthermore, Low said, GM would continue to consider requests for repairs on a "case by case" basis.

His comments came after auto-consumer advocate Phil Edmonston, author of the annual Lemon-Aid car guide, publicly criticized GM, saying the company made it difficult for customers to get refunds on gasket repairs.

Stewart said in his claim he suffered damages as a result of the defect in his 1997 Pontiac Trans Sport and 2002 Montana minivans.

"The damages include out-of-pocket expenses, repair and replacement costs and diminution of vehicle value," said the claim, without providing dollar amounts.

The claim alleged the company was negligent in designing, testing and manufacturing the gasket and did not change it promptly after discovering a problem.

The claim also alleges GM "concealed the nature and scope" of the defect since 1995 from customers and regulators and did not take remedial steps until 2004.

[Carpe Diem]

Thank you.

[mliongco]

I too had that head gasket problem and had a guy i know change it. Total Cost to me was $2500 and that was a deal!!! Man, I wish I knew all of this prior to buying it used. What a piece of Chit!

[Spidey]

When I take my van in this summer for the semi-annual service Ill ask my tech about it. He's one of the few that actually tells you the truth, even though he works at GM Good wrench. I know they always push for the stupid power sterering flush, he said dont bother. In all of his years as a mecanic he has never seen a pump go bad because of fluid.

Ive got enough ammunition and records under my belt that if this ever happens, I can go back on them and say why wasnt this changed before 100, 000 kms. Im almost obsessive about taking care of my vehcile and the records I keep, but its paid off in the long run

[Evgeny]

Its too bad things like this give domestic car manufacturers a crappy name. I've only driven domestics since I came to Canada, and haven't had a single problem with them (beyond standard wear). The first car I had was an '89 Chev Celebrity Wagon - absolute workhorse, if it wasn't for the rust, I'd still be driving it. Currently I'm driving a '97 Taurus Wagon (the 3.0 engine) and its not had any major problems yet. (Knock on wood of course)

[wing0]

sorry to bringing this thread back.

I just checked my grandpa's 97 Lumina with 3.1L and 55k on it.

The oil seems to be mixing with the coolant in the overflow tank. It's been 2-3 months since i've checked the tank(it was fine at that time)

Temperature is fine, but coolant is low which means it has gone into the engine or burned off a bit.

Should I go to GM first to see if they will provide any goodwill on this since I just did the coolant flush last yr at GM?

Is it safe to just replace the intake manifold and do an oil change or going to more extreme of opening the engine cover and examine everything?

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/4885/cimg07278kn.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/6672/cimg07300rc.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/1038/cimg07288iw.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/2594/cimg07293fs.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[phillbert]

ohhhh, that looks bad. looks like the headgaskets are leaking. does it bubble up when its running? either way, its gonna need a tear down.

[wing0]

you mean if the fluid in the overflow tank bubble up?

The car's not overheating at all and the funny thing is, this isn't a 3.4 or 3.8.

I still dunno where to bring it to. I doubt GM will pay for some the repair.

[phillbert]

you mean if the fluid in the overflow tank bubble up?

The car's not overheating at all and the funny thing is, this isn't a 3.4 or 3.8.

I still dunno where to bring it to. I doubt GM will pay for some the repair.
it doesnt matter if it doesnt overeheat now. one day, that engine is gonna die and do you wanna see your grandpa stranded on the side of the road?

get a pro to take a look at it, cause the only thing thats suppose to be in the coolant overflow tank......is coolant.

[wing0]

it doesnt matter if it doesnt overeheat now. one day, that engine is gonna die and do you wanna see your grandpa stranded on the side of the road?

get a pro to take a look at it, cause the only thing thats suppose to be in the coolant overflow tank......is coolant.

I know it will overheat. It happened to my friend's 3.4L in his blazer. I'm just asking if there is a need to rip apart the engine or a engine flush/oil change should be enough once the headgasket is fixed.

The whole point of me posting was to point out that i found something other than coolant in the tank.