GM offers workers up to $140K to leave

[frugalman]

http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/22/news/companies/gm_delphi/index.htm?section=cnn_topstories

"General Motors is offering hourly workers as much as $140,000 each to leave the company as the troubled automaker extends its push to cut labor costs and put an end to billions of dollars in losses."

would you leave under these circumstances?

[najibs]

I'd take the money and leave! Heck, even if you can't find a job, $140k will last you a while or would be plenty to start your own business...

[FastFokker]

They're not offering $140,000.. they're offering *UP TO* $140,000..

That's like stores saying "Starting from $9.99" but the $hit you want is actually $39.99.

Those with less than 10 years service will get $70,000 if they leave without the health care coverage.Man, that's barely more than a years salary. Screw that.

[Geese_Howard]

They're not offering $140,000.. they're offering *UP TO* $140,000..

That's like stores saying "Starting from $9.99" but the $hit you want is actually $39.99.

Man, that's barely more than a years salary. Screw that.


yes exactly, If you have b een working there for 25+ years you can probabley get that, 2-4% will only get that, the rest will be less.

[najibs]

They're not offering $140,000.. they're offering *UP TO* $140,000..

That's like stores saying "Starting from $9.99" but the $hit you want is actually $39.99.

Man, that's barely more than a years salary. Screw that.


$70,000 is still a good amount for the ones that have been there less than that. I'd invest it into stocks...

[FastFokker]

$70,000 is still a good amount for the ones that have been there less than that. I'd invest it into stocks...It is a good chunk of cash.. It's a tempting offer if you're going to be laid off indefinitely anyway.

It's just taking that cash writes you off of all benefits and future benefits you previously had... which can be really hard for the families involved.

I mean, for someone with no children and no large obligations it's not much of an issue.. "go on take the money and run.." But for families who are already strapped tight and for workers who don't have a lot of other options in life.. it's not an ideal attraction.

It sucks and I feel bad for those families.. but this is the way the global economy punches are coming, and we've got to roll with them.

[danfromwaterloo]

It is a good chunk of cash.. It's a tempting offer if you're going to be laid off indefinitely anyway.

It's just taking that cash writes you off of all benefits and future benefits you previously had... which can be really hard for the families involved.

I mean, for someone with no children and no large obligations it's not much of an issue.. "go on take the money and run.." But for families who are already strapped tight and for workers who don't have a lot of other options in life.. it's not an ideal attraction.

It sucks and I feel bad for those families.. but this is the way the global economy punches are coming, and we've got to roll with them.

It's been my experience that the people who take these packages usually finish WAY out ahead in the long run. Assuming you have marketable skills, take the money and run. If it takes you three months to find another job, you're still well over a year ahead.

The car market is a relative constant. From year to year, the amount of cars sold is roughly a constant. Therefore, if GM is having a rough time, one of the other car companies needs seasoned employees to build their cars, which are selling more. Take the money, move your family to a Toyota plant city, and get a job there.

[FastFokker]

Take the money, move your family to a Toyota plant city, and get a job there.That's often easier said than done.. but you have many good points.

I have a relative who took a severance package after working in a factory for 20+yrs.. he never did find another good job and that money didn't last. It's a sad story, but in his case, there was no other option.. the factory closed and moved to Mexico. (Closed in late 80's or early 90's, I forget now)

Tough choice..

[winner2000]

Take the money, move your family to a Toyota plant city, and get a job there.

Easier said than done my friend. Sure, that might have worked 10-15 years ago when only the big 3 dominated, but today's car market is much bigger than that. Toyota is doing very well for the time being, but in 5-10 years time, Chrysler could take the lead. Or GM could (finally) come out with a decent line of cars which spurs it's sales and allows it to regain the lead. The Chinese are coming full force into the North American market within a few years. How often are you going to move around like that?

[kingfencer]

a friend makes 80k plus a year for a auto plant, for him, this is a rip, not gm plant though.

[doc_ock]

It is a good chunk of cash.. It's a tempting offer if you're going to be laid off indefinitely anyway.

It's just taking that cash writes you off of all benefits and future benefits you previously had... which can be really hard for the families involved.

I mean, for someone with no children and no large obligations it's not much of an issue.. "go on take the money and run.." But for families who are already strapped tight and for workers who don't have a lot of other options in life.. it's not an ideal attraction.

It sucks and I feel bad for those families.. but this is the way the global economy punches are coming, and we've got to roll with them.
If GM files for bankruptcy, which some analysts say is quite likely at some point, workers can kiss their benefits goodbye anyways.

[danfromwaterloo]

Easier said than done my friend. Sure, that might have worked 10-15 years ago when only the big 3 dominated, but today's car market is much bigger than that. Toyota is doing very well for the time being, but in 5-10 years time, Chrysler could take the lead. Or GM could (finally) come out with a decent line of cars which spurs it's sales and allows it to regain the lead. The Chinese are coming full force into the North American market within a few years. How often are you going to move around like that?

Chrysler take the lead???? HAHAHAHA....are you freakin serious?

No, in 10 years time, the Big 3 will be Toyota, Honda, Hyundai. Geely will be where Hyundai is now, and North American cars will be where Kia is today.

[Ojam]

That's often easier said than done.. but you have many good points.

I have a relative who took a severance package after working in a factory for 20+yrs.. he never did find another good job and that money didn't last. It's a sad story, but in his case, there was no other option.. the factory closed and moved to Mexico. (Closed in late 80's or early 90's, I forget now)

Tough choice..

VW?

[frugalman]

If GM files for bankruptcy, which some analysts say is quite likely at some point, workers can kiss their benefits goodbye anyways.

any sources on this info?

[winner2000]

Chrysler take the lead???? HAHAHAHA....are you freakin serious?

No, in 10 years time, the Big 3 will be Toyota, Honda, Hyundai. Geely will be where Hyundai is now, and North American cars will be where Kia is today.

It was just an example...anything could happen in a fickle industry like automotives. I'm sure people would have laughed 10 years ago if anyone had said GM was going to be on the verge of bankruptcy.

Here we are.

[Nemodigital]

http://money.cnn.com/2006/03/22/news/companies/gm_delphi/index.htm?section=cnn_topstories

"General Motors is offering hourly workers as much as $140,000 each to leave the company as the troubled automaker extends its push to cut labor costs and put an end to billions of dollars in losses."

would you leave under these circumstances?
One word... unionized.

[Sajjad]

If I was ready to retire within 5 years, I'd take it.

[mart242]

any sources on this info?

The employee benefits (health / retirement) cost them too much so it's entirely possible. It's been mentionned frequently.

[rb]

if they file for bankruptcty - taking money now wouldn't be a bad thing

I'd take it

[Furkmyster]

If you take the money then you lose your health coverage that would suck.

[Rehan]

I assume this will reduce the number of people in the "Jobs Bank" (http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm), where many get paid to do virtually nothing.

[McLaren]

Definitely not worth it to lose the health care plan, since getting an operation in the US would cost in the thousands of dollars.

[cOmAtOaSt]

I assume this will reduce the number of people in the "Jobs Bank" (http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0510/17/A01-351179.htm), where many get paid to do virtually nothing.
OMFG, I've never heard of this thing until I read that story. That is unbelievable.

"Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat."

Pool is one of more than 12,000 American autoworkers who, instead of installing windshields or bending sheet metal, spend their days counting the hours in a jobs bank set up by Detroit automakers and Delphi Corp. as part of an extraordinary job security agreement with the United Auto Workers union. "


I say shut the whole auto industry down and start over.

[rb]

weak management, strong unions, piss poor workers who don't give a F**k ....= crappy product and eventually no jobs ...serves them right

[FastFokker]

weak management, strong unions, piss poor workers who don't give a F**k ....= crappy product and eventually no jobs ...serves them rightWell if you're a Canadian or American, then it will also serve you right.

As much as some of you guys may hate the Big3, they're a big part of our economies.. and if GM closes up, it's going to hit us all in one way or another.
I say shut the whole auto industry down and start over.Again, easier said than done.. I'm sure GM Execs would love to, but laws also prevent that.

[rb]

Well if you're a Canadian or American, then it will also serve you right.

As much as some of you guys may hate the Big3, they're a big part of our economies.. and if GM closes up, it's going to hit us all in one way or another.
Again, easier said than done.. I'm sure GM Execs would love to, but laws also prevent that.

Not exactly they are big in their local economies but I would venture that much of the slack will be picked up by Japanese transplants over here.

beside we pander too much to the so called big three - we need to move away from our reliance on them for economic growth

[canabiz]

Well if you're a Canadian or American, then it will also serve you right.

As much as some of you guys may hate the Big3, they're a big part of our economies.. and if GM closes up, it's going to hit us all in one way or another.
Again, easier said than done.. I'm sure GM Execs would love to, but laws also prevent that.

Fokker, Toyota is opening another plant in Woodbridge or somewhere around there, i'm sure the workers let go by GM would have a good shot of getting in with the experience they possess

The Big 3 have all become too bloated, too big and i'm sure there are a lot of things they would need to trim down to remain competitive on a global stage in this new century.

[Nemodigital]

Not exactly they are big in their local economies but I would venture that much of the slack will be picked up by Japanese transplants over here.

beside we pander too much to the so called big three - we need to move away from our reliance on them for economic growth
The big three are far too lathargic to compete with many of the auto-manufacturers from the east. I am always pro-open market and competition and the amount of legislation the big three are able to press through congress to support their ass is unbelievable.

[Kurtz7834]

One of several reasons the N. American auto makers are doing very poorly lately is their labour costs are way too high. I'm not surprised at this move.

An auto job is like a glorious gift from the heavens for often unskilled workers who can earn $25 per hour or more.

The payroll costs are going to bankrupt these companies if they don't take action soon. The CAW is in for a rude awakening sooner or later, it is a dinosaur awaiting the meteor shower. The amount your average auto worker is paid is simply no longer sustainable.

[doc_ock]

any sources on this info?
Sure. NEW YORK -- General Motors Corp. saw its share price slump 10 per cent yesterday as investors worried about the adverse impact of the bankruptcy protection filing by its largest parts supplier and former subsidiary, Delphi Corp.

Analysts warned that Delphi's weekend Chapter 11 filing may foreshadow a similar move by the world's largest auto maker, predicting that GM's labour woes would be compounded by Delphi's action.

"It is our view that bankruptcy protection for GM is increasingly looking like a reasonable way to properly address the company's retirement liabilities and job security benefits," analyst Ron Tadross said in a report yesterday.
http://www.workopolis.com/servlet/Content/fasttrack/20051011/RDELPHIGM11?section=Trades

[mart242]

OMFG, I've never heard of this thing until I read that story. That is unbelievable.

"Ken Pool is making good money. On weekdays, he shows up at 7 a.m. at Ford Motor Co.'s Michigan Truck Plant in Wayne, signs in, and then starts working -- on a crossword puzzle. Pool hates the monotony, but the pay is good: more than $31 an hour, plus benefits.

"We just go in and play crossword puzzles, watch videos that someone brings in or read the newspaper," he says. "Otherwise, I've just sat.

Nothing new here. It sounds to me like most govt employees... :lol: (yup, I used to work for the govt so I know what I'm talking about)

[st7860]

if GM made decent vehicles then they wouldn't be in this position of having to buy out workers.

[Ojam]

if GM made decent vehicles then they wouldn't be in this position of having to buy out workers.

That has nothing to do with their finacial situation, its their costs of benifts that their retired workers are getting that is dragging them down. Jeeze being the one that is always bitching about others getting pay inceases and extra bonuses you'd think you would know this.....

[st7860]

That has nothing to do with their finacial situation, its their costs of benifts that their retired workers are getting that is dragging them down. Jeeze being the one that is always bitching about others getting pay inceases and extra bonuses you'd think you would know this.....

its all the same thing. If their cars were decent, they could charge more, and having so many workers wouldn't be a problem.

[Ojam]

its all the same thing. If their cars were decent, they could charge more, and having so many workers wouldn't be a problem.

If they charge more and then they would sell less, having workers is not their problem, its the benfits that they have to pay to their retired ageing union members that is the problem.

[rb]

If they charge more and then they would sell less, having workers is not their problem, its the benfits that they have to pay to their retired ageing union members that is the problem.


Actually its the incentives they have to pay to sell their vehicles thats the biggest drag on them - yes they have retiree benefits etc but their vehicles are sold at a deep discount because they are perceived to lack the quality of Japanese vehicles. and remember an awful lot of GM vehicles are fleet sales where they are discounted even further to get them sold.

[biggunstwo]

Why are they offering them money to leave? Just fire those lazy union bastards.

[frugalman]

Sure.
http://www.workopolis.com/servlet/Content/fasttrack/20051011/RDELPHIGM11?section=Trades

thanks doc :)

[Ojam]

Actually its the incentives they have to pay to sell their vehicles thats the biggest drag on them - yes they have retiree benefits etc but their vehicles are sold at a deep discount because they are perceived to lack the quality of Japanese vehicles. and remember an awful lot of GM vehicles are fleet sales where they are discounted even further to get them sold.

Selling their cars at a higher price is a short term solution, they still have the costs of keeping their retired personal alive to deal with, which is only going to increase and keep increasing until 50 years after they have gone 100% automated, or the US government implements some sort of "universal healthcare" that alleviates the problem. GM isn't the only company that is running into this problem, there are lots.

[doc_ock]

thanks doc :)
NP. Selling their cars at a higher price is a short term solution, they still have the costs of keeping their retired personal alive to deal with, which is only going to increase and keep increasing until 50 years after they have gone 100% automated, or the US government implements some sort of "universal healthcare" that alleviates the problem. GM isn't the only company that is running into this problem, there are lots. Yep. The big three have huge expenses that the Asian car companies don't have to contend with. The fact that Asian cars are better designed/engineered/manufactured is just the icing on the cake.

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

its all the same thing. If their cars were decent, they could charge more, and having so many workers wouldn't be a problem.

Correct.

All the whining about unions aside, we all know this is the truth. Getting owned on a $20,000 expense is enough to make a man swear off a brand forever. GM never thought that far ahead - and it paid for its arrogance.

[doc_ock]

Correct.

All the whining about unions aside, we all know this is the truth. Getting owned on a $20,000 expense is enough to make a man swear off a brand forever. GM never thought that far ahead - and it paid for its arrogance.
Oh of course. Management and engineers are always to blame. :rolleyes: We all know that Wal-Mart doesn't have a successful business model at all. ;)

[cyberknight]

Why are they offering them money to leave? Just fire those lazy union bastards.

unfortunately, they are in a UNION.

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

Oh of course. Management and engineers are always to blame. :rolleyes: We all know that Wal-Mart doesn't have a successful business model at all. ;)


WAAAH, my stocks are giving me a 2$ dividend but it is the lazy union workers who have to pay~! (Yes I know they finally cut that horrendous waste of capital)

I hate the way unions mess around, but honestly this is 100% the fault of bean counters in management who made sure GM cars were made out of the cheapest parts they could find. Did you ever wonder why Delphi went out of business? GM nickle and dimed them until they died.

[st7860]

Correct.

All the whining about unions aside, we all know this is the truth. Getting owned on a $20,000 expense is enough to make a man swear off a brand forever. GM never thought that far ahead - and it paid for its arrogance.

yes. thats what i thought too. with chyrsler, the same thing. its about $30,000 for a brand new caravan, and $37,000 for a Honda Odyssey. The 2006 Caravan has plenty of cute features too(fold down seats, etc). but a lot of people don't like them because they have a nasty reputation for failing after the warranty runs out, and they have a lousy resale value. But if the quality was good, then people would be willing to pay more, and then it wouldn't be a problem having so many workers.

[gordholio]

If you take the money then you lose your health coverage that would suck.
Not if you get another job with health coverage. Or a good paying job so you can afford to buy your own health insurance.

[gordholio]

Nothing new here. It sounds to me like most govt employees... :lol: (yup, I used to work for the govt so I know what I'm talking about)
I used to work for the Ontario Government after I graduated from Georgian College in Barrie. I worked as a computer programmer.
I remember seeing long-time employees doing nothing in the afternoon (maybe all day), doing crosswords, visiting other employees and talking for a long time - not doing their job - whatever their job was.

[Ojam]

yes. thats what i thought too. with chyrsler, the same thing. its about $30,000 for a brand new caravan, and $37,000 for a Honda Odyssey. The 2006 Caravan has plenty of cute features too(fold down seats, etc). but a lot of people don't like them because they have a nasty reputation for failing after the warranty runs out, and they have a lousy resale value. But if the quality was good, then people would be willing to pay more, and then it wouldn't be a problem having so many workers.

I guess thats why Dodge and Chrysler take up the top two sales spots for mini vans in the United States? Because nobody is buying them, they are all buying Honda's. :rolleyes:

[mart242]

Why are they offering them money to leave? Just fire those lazy union bastards.

Do you actually know what an union is? :confused: That's the problem with unions, you can't fire anyone!

[frugalman]

Do you actually know what an union is? :confused: That's the problem with unions, you can't fire anyone!

hence the reason for the package.. hehhe

[st7860]

I guess thats why Dodge and Chrysler take up the top two sales spots for mini vans in the United States? Because nobody is buying them, they are all buying Honda's. :rolleyes:

Yes i know the dodge caravan is great, the people at www.dodgetalk.com says so too. But the resale value is disgusting.

[doc_ock]

WAAAH, my stocks are giving me a 2$ dividend but it is the lazy union workers who have to pay~! (Yes I know they finally cut that horrendous waste of capital)

I hate the way unions mess around, but honestly this is 100% the fault of bean counters in management who made sure GM cars were made out of the cheapest parts they could find. Did you ever wonder why Delphi went out of business? GM nickle and dimed them until they died.
Ohhhhhh. Okay. I get it now. Because expenses or exorbitant concessions to unions couldn't force anybody to pinch pennies. :rolleyes: Sure thing comrade. ;)

[canadianbiz]

GM offers workers up to $140K to leave

Probably stated before but if not. Thats because of all the JUNK they sell. North American domestic automobiles are junk. They have lost their reputation altogether.

[mslam]

I used to work for the Ontario Government after I graduated from Georgian College in Barrie. I worked as a computer programmer.
I remember seeing long-time employees doing nothing in the afternoon (maybe all day), doing crosswords, visiting other employees and talking for a long time - not doing their job - whatever their job was.

Sorry, OT but I had to chime in: I used to work indirectly for the gov't (they were my client). I was at the client site everyday and let's just say that because they were paying me (my company) they thought that we would do their jobs for them. :twisted: No way. I had to explain to them countless times what was in my scope of work and what was not. They kept complaining they were busy, yet they would never dare take any time out from their 2 hour lunches, and 1 hour coffee/smoke breaks. :evil:

Ok, back on topic now. I don't know much about cars but from personal experience. My first car was a 1998 Z24. The handling was awful, and the piece of junk felt like it was going to fall apart everytime I drove on the highway. Thank goodness it was a lease. My second car was (still is) an Acura 1.7 EL. I financed it and it's all paid off now. From the time I bought it to now, I have yet to have a problem with it. Excellent on gas and drives great. No more domestics for me, ever.

[canadianbiz]

My first car was a 1998 Z24. The handling was awful, and the piece of junk felt like it was going to fall apart everytime I drove on the highway. Thank goodness it was a lease. My second car was (still is) an Acura 1.7 EL. I financed it and it's all paid off now. From the time I bought it to now, I have yet to have a problem with it. Excellent on gas and drives great. No more domestics for me, ever.

As I stated above you. All domestic autos are JUNK. A lost reputation that they will never get back. Before too much longer, there will be no more Fords, Chrysler and GM. It will be all imports built in the US. Companies owned by the Japanese, Koreans etc who will do the hiring of autoworkers at a fraction of the pay domestic autoworkers make today.

[gilboman]

As I stated above you. All domestic autos are JUNK. A lost reputation that they will never get back. Before too much longer, there will be no more Fords, Chrysler and GM. It will be all imports built in the US. Companies owned by the Japanese, Koreans etc who will do the hiring of autoworkers at a fraction of the pay domestic autoworkers make today.

a lot of domestic auto's are junks..but they also have their share of good cars as well. it's ignorant to label all products by the big 3 as junk.

[canadianbiz]

a lot of domestic auto's are junks..but they also have their share of good cars as well. it's ignorant to label all products by the big 3 as junk.

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. Yes you are right. They do have their good ones too but unfortunately they haven't built any since the mid 80's
I see these newer JUNKERS for sale all the time. Mid 90's Domestics like for $500 or $1000. And thats for a mid 90's
My brothers wife had a Chev Cavalier. Everytime that JUNK broke down it cost them over $500 to get it fixed. And it had a habit of breaking down like every few months. I am not basing what I say on that car but like I said, these things are littering up the country because they have no resale value, no good for parts and no body wants them. The sooner the "big3" die off, they will be alot better off! JMO

[Ojam]

Yes i know the dodge caravan is great, the people at www.dodgetalk.com says so too. But the resale value is disgusting.

I'm not even going to bother. Its not even worth it. :rolleyes:

[15-20_God]

I'm not even going to bother. Its not even worth it. :rolleyes:

thats funny cause ppl from this site don't seem to like the caravan so much.

http://www.donotbuydodge.ca/

[henesse]

The Chinese are coming full force into the North American market within a few years. How often are you going to move around like that?


The chinese could come with a full force but i dont think anyone is stupid enough to buy one. Even the chinese living in Canada wont buy one.

[henesse]

I'm not even going to bother. Its not even worth it. :rolleyes:

im an S and a Z owner.
the caravan is a good vechile to seat 7 people.
very good for road trips, camping and tons of other things.
you just dont buy one new.

[Ojam]

thats funny cause ppl from this site don't seem to like the caravan so much.

http://www.donotbuydodge.ca/

Its not about if it's a good vehicle or not, its simply sales, and the Caravan has been the top selling mini van since it's inception (1 of only 2 mini-vans in the top 20 selling vehicles, the other being the Town and Country). I couldn't care less how many people hate it, its still outselling the competition, just as the Ford F150 is (Chevy Silverado is #2 overall), sure sales could be better for the Big three, but their primary problem right now is not increasing sales, its decreasing their labor related costs.

[najibs]

Its not about if it's a good vehicle or not, its simply sales, and the Caravan has been the top selling mini van since it's inception (1 of only 2 mini-vans in the top 20 selling vehicles, the other being the Town and Country). I couldn't care less how many people hate it, its still outselling the competition, just as the Ford F150 is (Chevy Silverado is #2 overall), sure sales could be better for the Big three, but their primary problem right now is not increasing sales, its decreasing their labor related costs.

American cars suck, and that includes the minivans. This is part of the reason why they are all struggling so much, and that's why Toyota is now the world's largest car manufacturer. Japanese cars are better made overall, from my experience, I'll never buy an American car again, after my family and I have owned several US and Japanese cars.

The poor work ethic and demanding nature of those lazy unionized employees of American car companies has translated into inferior products. They have no one to blame but themselves for losing ground to the Japanese auto industry, which indeed offers a superior product for the most part.

[Ojam]

American cars suck, and that includes the minivans. This is part of the reason why they are all struggling so much, and that's why Toyota is now the world's largest car manufacturer. Japanese cars are better made overall, from my experience, I'll never buy an American car again, after my family and I have owned several US and Japanese cars.

ahhhhh *bangs head against keyboard* did you read what you quoted?

[mslam]

Its not about if it's a good vehicle or not, its simply sales, and the Caravan has been the top selling mini van since it's inception (1 of only 2 mini-vans in the top 20 selling vehicles, the other being the Town and Country). I couldn't care less how many people hate it, its still outselling the competition, just as the Ford F150 is (Chevy Silverado is #2 overall), sure sales could be better for the Big three, but their primary problem right now is not increasing sales, its decreasing their labor related costs.

Almost every family I know, and their uncles, own a Caravan. Some people just don't believe in 'you get what you pay for'. :(

[gilboman]

Its not about if it's a good vehicle or not, its simply sales, and the Caravan has been the top selling mini van since it's inception (1 of only 2 mini-vans in the top 20 selling vehicles, the other being the Town and Country). I couldn't care less how many people hate it, its still outselling the competition, just as the Ford F150 is (Chevy Silverado is #2 overall), sure sales could be better for the Big three, but their primary problem right now is not increasing sales, its decreasing their labor related costs.

people buy it because its cheap and they can't afford a better one in the class. so you don't care if a car/van is good or how far behind the competition it is?? you will buy it if others buy it?? without looking at why? :lol: :lol:

i guess you shop at MDG for all your computing needs too since they are the best selling canadian brand PC

[Ojam]

people buy it because its cheap and they can't afford a better one in the class. so you don't care if a car/van is good or how far behind the competition it is?? you will buy it if others buy it?? without looking at why? :lol: :lol:

i guess you shop at MDG for all your computing needs too since they are the best selling canadian brand PC

Christ people, I'm not talking about the quality of the cars, I drive a Honda, go back and look at what st7860 said. Saying that GM is in such a bad place and other NA car manufactures because their quality is crap and that’s why nobody is buying them. I pointed out that people are buying them, and in large quantities and that its GM labor costs which are hurting them. I never made any judgments on their quality or whether people should or shouldn't buy them, I was just pointing out how wrong st7860 was. Jeeze. READ THE POSTS.


yes. thats what i thought too. with chyrsler, the same thing. its about $30,000 for a brand new caravan, and $37,000 for a Honda Odyssey. The 2006 Caravan has plenty of cute features too(fold down seats, etc). but a lot of people don't like them because they have a nasty reputation for failing after the warranty runs out, and they have a lousy resale value. But if the quality was good, then people would be willing to pay more, and then it wouldn't be a problem having so many workers.

[gilboman]

Christ people, I'm not talking about the quality of the cars, I drive a Honda, go back and look at what st7860 said. Saying that GM is in such a bad place and other NA car manufactures because their quality is crap and that’s why nobody is buying them. I pointed out that people are buying them, and in large quantities and that its GM labor costs which are hurting them. I never made any judgments on their quality or whether people should or shouldn't buy them, I was just pointing out how wrong st7860 was. Jeeze. READ THE POSTS.

then maybe you should do a better job, especially when this was what you quoted when you wrote your response

Originally Posted by 15-20_God
thats funny cause ppl from this site don't seem to like the caravan so much.

http://www.donotbuydodge.ca/

[Ojam]

then maybe you should do a better job, especially when this was what you quoted when you wrote your response

Originally Posted by 15-20_God
thats funny cause ppl from this site don't seem to like the caravan so much.

http://www.donotbuydodge.ca/

Yeah and look what I keep saying, look what this whole thread is about, GM, and other NA car manufactures financial situation, not the quality of their cars.

sure sales could be better for the Big three, but their primary problem right now is not increasing sales, its decreasing their labor related costs.

[ES_Revenge]

Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. Yes you are right. They do have their good ones too but unfortunately they haven't built any since the mid 80's
I see these newer JUNKERS for sale all the time. Mid 90's Domestics like for $500 or $1000. And thats for a mid 90's
My brothers wife had a Chev Cavalier. Everytime that JUNK broke down it cost them over $500 to get it fixed. And it had a habit of breaking down like every few months. I am not basing what I say on that car but like I said, these things are littering up the country because they have no resale value, no good for parts and no body wants them. The sooner the "big3" die off, they will be alot better off! JMO

Blatant overgeneralisations such as calling all domestics "junk" aren't only *foolish*, they make you look foolish as well. Furthermore anyone that actually knows anything about automobiles will further ignore your ignorant comments... :rolleyes:

Pointing out individual cars breaking down and limited personal experience is really no gauge on anything. But if you really want to go there, I'll tell you my sister's Integra which has about half the kms as my car (which is a Pontiac Grand Am); has required repairs pretty much on par with my car and again I have double the mileage. Plus her A/C and ABS have both stopped working (quoted at $600-$1000 each to repair), mine are working like the day the car was bought. And they were both bought brand new. (Let's not even get into the fact that pretty much every Honda equipped with ABS I've been in, from the 80s to the mid/late 90s, has had it's ABS light on. One of the reasons being that Honda was using out-of-date high-pressure ABS systems well after companies like GM had switched to lower-cost, higher reliability, low-pressure ABS systems.)

I can also give a lot more examples going the exact opposite direction as your example of "my brother had a Cavalier, it broke down all the time; therefore all domestics equal junk" :rolleyes:

But whatever--before you reply, let me add you to my ignore list so I don't have to read more ignorant statements from you because you clearly don't know the first thing about automobiles. :rolleyes:

[FastFokker]

I'm with ES_Revenge's sentiments.

If you maintain your vehicle properly, there's really no reason it should break down. Most people don't maintain their vehicles though, they consider repairs the equivalent of maintenance. It just isn't.

Yes there are many domestic vehicles that do have some recurring issues.. but there are many import vehicles with recurring issues.

I rarely blame the vehicle, though there are instances of problematic vehicles.. but moreso the blame needs lays on the hands of the owner who is negligent in one or more ways.

Myself, I've only owned domestics (not that I have anything against imports, just turned out that way), and my current vehicle is 6yrs old and hasn't yet broken down.. but I keep it maintained.

[mart242]

The chinese could come with a full force but i dont think anyone is stupid enough to buy one. Even the chinese living in Canada wont buy one.

That's what people used to say about Hyundais 10 years ago...

[canadianbiz]

Blatant overgeneralisations such as calling all domestics "junk" aren't only *foolish*, they make you look foolish as well. Furthermore anyone that actually knows anything about automobiles will further ignore your ignorant comments... :rolleyes:

But whatever--before you reply, let me add you to my ignore list so I don't have to read more ignorant statements from you because you clearly don't know the first thing about automobiles. :rolleyes:

And I would add that you had better read Post #63 and many others with the same opinion. The sooner the North American auto industry is otta here, the better quality vehicles there will be on the road and we will not have to have all this littering going on with this junk.

[FastFokker]

We buy everything else made in China.. I can't see why we wouldn't buy Chinese cars.

[Sajjad]

We buy everything else made in China.. I can't see why we wouldn't buy Chinese cars.

Our LED flashlight won't really kill us. Driving a car that is potentially unreliable or safe, isn't worth it.

[FastFokker]

Our LED flashlight won't really kill us. Driving a car that is potentially unreliable or safe, isn't worth it.A car is potentially unrealiable or unsafe because it's stamped "Made in China"??

If you're going to use a vehicle, regardless of where it came from it will have to pass the standards and be safe to even get on the road.

[henesse]

That's what people used to say about Hyundais 10 years ago...

My first pick would be from japan/europe and second American, after that nothing.
Its a waste of money to even look at a hyundai or kia let alone a chinese made car.

Do you recall how good VW jettas and passats were in the 1990's?
You see how crappy they are now that they are made in china?
After about 100k these cars need a new engine and fall apart.

besides when was the last time you heard of china making any quality product?
a car is not something you want to cheap out on, in the long run you'll be paying alot.

Who wants to be knowen as the guy driving in that chinese made car, lol?

[FastFokker]

Who wants to be knowen as the guy driving in that chinese made car, lol?Times they are a changin!

Give it another 10yrs and we'll likely look at Chinese cars the same way we currently look at Korean cars.. (well we as in the majority of people, not specifically you :cheesygri)

[henesse]

We buy everything else made in China.. I can't see why we wouldn't buy Chinese cars.


not realy, most computer hardware is made in taiwan and most companies based out of taiwan has good quality control. The engineering behind these products are mainly from japan and the US.

There is no way in hell i would buy a chinese engineered and built product!
Thats just asking for your wheels to come off at 100km/h on a highway.

[henesse]

Times they are a changin!

Give it another 10yrs and we'll likely look at Chinese cars the same way we currently look at Korean cars.. (well we as in the majority of people, not specifically you :cheesygri)


lol, dood im sure the car will be popular with the oblivious mass. :lol:
infact i think we should start a new thread about this.

[brimen]

Just a quick question. Just wondering how come Dodge/Chrysler hasn't had cutbacks/layoffs like Ford and GM?

[Montague]

There is no way in hell i would buy a chinese engineered and built product!
Thats just asking for your wheels to come off at 100km/h on a highway.
Guess you must have read this thread:

http://www.redflagdeals.com/forums/showthread.php?t=216136&highlight=chinese+car

Remember though that long ago products made in Japan were thought to be "inferior".

[atsam]

Having read all the posts in this thread I have come to the conclusion that there are very few that have any intelligence what so ever.

Intelligence – noun – capacity for knowledge; information or news

If one was to research their opinion then they would find out the facts about the automotive world. They sit in their chair with little or no knowledge of the facts and shoot off opinion like bullets out of a machine gun.

“Lazy Union Workers” – Try working on an assembly line in any of the automotive companies. Your thinking will change after just one day working on the line. And to those that might say I worked in one 10 years ago well you do not know what you are talking about as things have changed.

Unskilled – Far from it people. Ontario won out getting assembly plants just in the last year why? We have a work force that has the skill set to learn and be trained which other places in North America did not.

Ontario plants have some of the best quality ratings in the world when it comes to building cars and trucks. This includes all manufacturing companies not just the so called big three.

Should anyone wish to educate themselves I have add a couple of links:
http://www.harbourinc.com/pdf/2005%20Press%20Release.pdf

http://www.jdpower.com/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2005089

I will make an assumption (note that word starts with a$$) here that most posters are younger in age ( under 30 ). You do not need medical benifets at this point in your life but you will. Your company will not be there and the government is getting out of the health care business so I guess you will just die without any benefits. I for one would never leave my job for 100K one time payment without something else solid to go to.
The job bank deal in the States is very sad indeed. It speaks to the problem with big business. They have outsourced thousands of jobs and in-sourced hundreds more for what, just to pay thousand in a job bank. But then again “On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors”.
Do not blame the worker. All they can do is build the vehicles, not manage the company.
Now Union Management is another story but again do not blame the worker!

[FastFokker]

I'd agree.. assembly line factory work is far from glamorous or easy.

It actually does hurt many people physically from the repitition and definitely hurts people mentally.

I could do the job if during a recession/depression and that was the work I found, but I would never willingly choose that career.

Some of the "lazy union worker" posts are coming from the same people who post messages bragging about how they're at work getting paid while surfing the net. :lol:

[stevethewheel]

$140K is standard for a buyout at these wages and the kind of length of service you'd need to get it. You have to remember that a lot of factory workers are in it for the long haul, with the eventual payout of a decent retirement....the contracts the union has are as much about benefits and retirement as they are about wages 'today', and in fact the union will often accept a smaller pay increase in order to get better benefits. Leaving early means walking away from all the long-term investment.

[mart242]

besides when was the last time you heard of china making any quality product?
a car is not something you want to cheap out on, in the long run you'll be paying alot.

I agree with you 100%, but the majority doens't. Take a loot at walmart? People buying lots of junk made in China that they have to replace the year after because it broke. They don't care!!

I do the opposite. I'll pay 2-3x as much if I have too but it better last a long time. :) And I do my best to not buy stuff made in China.

[koft]

Since your post was a bit long, I totally agree with your comment, I am not here to blame the worker, auto worker is considered a skill trade. I wouldn't say they don't have skill.

However, one of the main reason that the N.A. Big 3 companies are losing money is their pension and health benefit. That is why over the past several years the CAW negogitates the main sticking point wasn't really the salary increase, is the fact that GM is trying to save cost by reducing benefits. GM will be more than happy giving out 200k to get less worker on their pension and benefits. GM can just charge a one time cost to their quarterly earning and take a big hit, while in the long run the company will become more financially viable.

Health benefits cost a lot in the US and Canada....

Having read all the posts in this thread I have come to the conclusion that there are very few that have any intelligence what so ever.
.....

I will make an assumption (note that word starts with a$$) here that most posters are younger in age ( under 30 ). You do not need medical benifets at this point in your life but you will. Your company will not be there and the government is getting out of the health care business so I guess you will just die without any benefits. I for one would never leave my job for 100K one time payment without something else solid to go to.
The job bank deal in the States is very sad indeed. It speaks to the problem with big business. They have outsourced thousands of jobs and in-sourced hundreds more for what, just to pay thousand in a job bank. But then again “On a Clear Day You Can See General Motors”.
Do not blame the worker. All they can do is build the vehicles, not manage the company.
Now Union Management is another story but again do not blame the worker!