Does the Toronto Police need a Chopper?

[chickenbones]

York has one, Durham has one, Edmonton has one, I think Calgary probably has one too.

So being the largest(?) metro area with the most number of crimes probably why don't the Toronto Police have a chopper?

If you say they could borrow the one from York and Durham, in reality they are actually located pretty far. Rarely do they lend choppers that they are paying for to other Police forces.

[FastFokker]

I'd say the GTA needs one, but not necessarily just Toronto.

[chickenbones]

I'd say the GTA needs one, but not necessarily just Toronto.


But York and Durham already own one.

[FastFokker]

But York and Durham already own one.Well I'm not sure what that means.. I'm presuming those places are part of the GTA?

If there is a need for the chopper in Toronto, will the York and Durham chopper(s) go to Toronto?

I don't really see a need for more than 1 chopper for all of the GTA (unless it's a backup).

[nano]

york and durham have much more rural area then toronto, it would be nice but there are other things this city needs.

[gei]

york and durham have much more rural area then toronto, it would be nice but there are other things this city needs.

like a helicopter?

[nano]

like a helicopter?
a helicopter wont solve Toronto's crime problems.

[FastFokker]

How will a helicopter make anything better in built up and congested Toronto?

A helicopter is very useful for all of the GTA, but not Toronto specifically.

[nano]

How will a helicopter make anything better in built up and congested Toronto?

A helicopter is very useful for all of the GTA, but not Toronto specifically.
a helicopter can shine a bright light on a house with criminals in it. YAY!

[chickenbones]

How will a helicopter make anything better in built up and congested Toronto?

A helicopter is very useful for all of the GTA, but not Toronto specifically.


I agree with your logic, but unfortunately the GTA doesn't work that way. I belive York and Durham are seperately funded, so Toronto really don't have any right to use their choppers. Their choppers are also located far away, it's of no use when needed even if York lets metro borrow them.

Choppers deter pursuits, right now you pretty much just have to run and the cops are forced to call it off. Choppers worked in Edmonton to deter people from running.

Choppers in the air can locate people who are hiding at night, respond (if already in air) quickly to say a shots fired crime scene and increase the possibility of finding the culprits.

[Narci]

I agree with your logic, but unfortunately the GTA doesn't work that way. I belive York and Durham are seperately funded, so Toronto really don't have any right to use their choppers. Their choppers are also located far away, it's of no use when needed even if York lets metro borrow them.

Choppers deter pursuits, right now you pretty much just have to run and the cops are forced to call it off. Choppers worked in Edmonton to deter people from running.

Choppers in the air can locate people who are hiding at night, respond (if already in air) quickly to say a shots fired crime scene and increase the possibility of finding the culprits.

They can also find the best, non congested, routes for emergancy vehicles to go through whether ambulance or police or firetrucks.

[steve.m]

yes we need a chopper but not a whimpy one like fred and barney used:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:BVyX6jivORmQAM:pebb-z.tripod.com/TheFlintstoneFlyer/Channel_3__Sep_11_008.jpg

we need a mil 24
http://www.b-americanboats.com/mi24-action.jpg


or an AH-64 Apache
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/yah-64-DA-SC-86-01757.jpg

with a built in Tim Hortons and external speakers blaring the TV theme of Airwolf. If you start a car chase on the 400, instead of just following, the chopper can give some "death from above". :lol:

[FastFokker]

http://www.tvcrazy.net/tvclassics/images/airwolf/airwolf.jpg

[boonjaca]

yes we need a chopper but not a whimpy one like fred and barney used:
http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:BVyX6jivORmQAM:pebb-z.tripod.com/TheFlintstoneFlyer/Channel_3__Sep_11_008.jpg

we need a mil 24
http://www.b-americanboats.com/mi24-action.jpg

or an AH-64 Apache
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/images/yah-64-DA-SC-86-01757.jpg

with a built in Tim Hortons and external speakers blaring the TV theme of Airwolf. If you start a car chase on the 400, instead of just following, the chopper can give some "death from above". :lol:

Thanks steve.m, I fell off my chair seeing this...... :D

[robskot]

York has one, Durham has one, Edmonton has one, I think Calgary probably has one too.

Actually, Calgary's has had one since 1995...it is Canada's first in city one...

[FastFokker]

Thanks steve.m, I fell off my chair seeing this...... :DI swear I saw an Apache flying over Halifax a few weeks ago.

Was actually frightening to see, I can't imagine how scared people are in war torn nations when they see that thing flying around.

[stealth]

I dont see the point. Not a lot of sparse territory to cover, and too much traffic/tall buildings to either slow down "runners" or obscure visibility anyways. Seems like a waste to me, but I dont buy into the "even if the millions of $ save one life its worth it argument". We already put a price on human life here and its much lower than that.

Rather see more cops on the beat and on patrol- directly serving the communities rather than worrying about speeders and grow ops (in order to create revenue and get their pics in the papers). every cop wishes they were Eddie Murphy and go "deep uncover"

[FastFokker]

I'd agree with Stealth.. even though I'm pro-aviation, I think the money would be more useful on the ground.

You can't outrun the speed of light either, so radios always win.. a crotch rocket can still outrun a helicopter, so that's pointless.

Too much urban sprawl in Toronto to make a chopper viable... FLIR can't see through structures, so what's the point.

[gei]

How will a helicopter make anything better in built up and congested Toronto?

A helicopter is very useful for all of the GTA, but not Toronto specifically.

For someone living in halifax you sure seem to "know" a lot about the GTA...

[FastFokker]

For someone living in halifax you sure seem to "know" a lot about the GTA...Thanks.. it's amazing how much other Canadians know about Toronto, but how little Torontonians know of other Canadians.

Kind of like the threads on RFD ranting about how much Canadians know about America, but how little Americans know about Canada.

[jollyeskimo]

Ebay it!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4623857135&ru=http://search.ebay.co.uk:80/4623857135_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsopZ1QQmaxrecordsreturned Z300QQfviZ1

[chickenbones]

Ebay it!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4623857135&ru=http://search.ebay.co.uk:80/4623857135_W0QQfrppZ50QQfsopZ1QQmaxrecordsreturned Z300QQfviZ1

Yeah right 20 mil CND for a damaged chopper?


Some of the questions for that auction is hilarious!

Q: Could you tell me if it has any anti-theft devices or remote central locking?
22-Mar-06
A: Hi Tenisballz Good question no central locking but built in safeguards you need to have the lean build of a woman the legs of a giant and the height of a dwarf (term not meant to offend)to get into the front seat,the rear seat is a little more generous. When shopping just remove the tasking hard disk.

[divx]

I dont see the point. Not a lot of sparse territory to cover, and too much traffic/tall buildings to either slow down "runners" or obscure visibility anyways. Seems like a waste to me, but I dont buy into the "even if the millions of $ save one life its worth it argument". We already put a price on human life here and its much lower than that.

Rather see more cops on the beat and on patrol- directly serving the communities rather than worrying about speeders and grow ops (in order to create revenue and get their pics in the papers). every cop wishes they were Eddie Murphy and go "deep uncover"
That depends on who you save. After all, not all human lives are of equal worth. So it can be worth it.

[FastFokker]

That depends on who you save. After all, not all human lives are of equal worth. So it can be worth it.People who are worth it, already come with their own secret police.

[asim99]

Thanks.. it's amazing how much other Canadians know about Toronto, but how little Torontonians know of other Canadians.

Kind of like the threads on RFD ranting about how much Canadians know about America, but how little Americans know about Canada.
touche!

[blackhawk]

For someone living in halifax you sure seem to "know" a lot about the GTA...

kinda like how canadians know so much about americans but americans dont know much about anyone else but themselves;)

[blackhawk]

got beat on the last post so.........................

how about buying steering wheel locks for your fire trucks instead :lol:

gotta go to the big smoke friday so better watch out myself!

[eelfliw]

If someone can offer a guarantee that a chopper will reduce crime rate by, say, 20%, then I'll agree on getting one. Otherwise, it's just another expensive toy that the next door Jones' have and we don't.

[divx]

People who are worth it, already come with their own secret police.
You assume I meant rich people. Nope, that's not quite it. People who are worth saving are the ones contributes to society. The other kind (leeches) are a dime a dozen, no need to waste any money on them.

[mart242]

What's the cost to run a chopper? +1000$ / hour... That can mess up a budget quickly. Plus, you can't really fly it downtown with all the buildings, and I don't think that if there's someone shooting with a gun somewhere they'll go there with the chopper.

[FastFokker]

You assume I meant rich people. Nope, that's not quite it. People who are worth saving are the ones contributes to society. The other kind (leeches) are a dime a dozen, no need to waste any money on them.Sounds like you need a final solution. You scare me.
What's the cost to run a chopper? +1000$ / hour...Would cost around $3 million a year... maybe more.

[divx]

Sounds like you need a final solution. You scare me.
Would cost around $3 million a year... maybe more.
Final solution to all the people who are useless to society by choice, sure. But if it's not expensive, might as well get one or more.

[Emancipated]

http://www.tvcrazy.net/tvclassics/images/airwolf/airwolf.jpg


Ah yes, it was only a matter of time before these guys surfaced. We should just give them carte blanche and permit them to blast those drug dealers and suspected criminals on the run. Mount it with a Gatling gun and just let them totally cut the criminals in two.

[aquariaguy]

Don't they use choppers to find GROW OPS? Since all the lighting gives out heat, i thought we used some kinda chopper to find them. Infrared or something.

[FastFokker]

Don't they use choppers to find GROW OPS? Since all the lighting gives out heat, i thought we used some kinda chopper to find them. Infrared or something.Yeah they use FLIR (Forward Looking InfraRed), basically thermal imaging.. it can find growops in house attics pretty easily.

Thank goodness "they" came out with new LED lighting which doesn't cause the large amounts of heat dissipation as found in HID (High Intensity Discharge) lights.

Also HID saves on power consumption.. another way to find grow-ops. (errr was)

The future is good! :twisted:

[Kinki]

Actually private businesses and organizations were willing to sponsor the cost and operation of a Toronto Police Helicopter. But David Miller still refused to have helicopters in the air of Toronto. So the argument that it would put a dent in Toronto's budget isn't really valid.

www.stopthechoppers.ca

[chickenbones]

Actually private businesses and organizations were willing to sponsor the cost and operation of a Toronto Police Helicopter. But David Miller still refused to have helicopters in the air of Toronto. So the argument that it would put a dent in Toronto's budget isn't really valid.

www.stopthechoppers.ca


Yes, I believe the Edmonton Police Helicopter is supported mainly by private fundraising. So really it's not millions out of the pocket of our police force.

[D.NGUYEN]

They should train stealthy ninjas instead. They can travel quickly and stealthly slit criminal throats before they even know it. Give them a flashlight and they will do the same as a helicopter. :lol:

[FastFokker]

www.stopthechoppers.caFunny website, first thing you see when you load it up..

A helicopter that crashed into a nice, expensive home in the yeeeeeear 2000. :rolleyes:
http://www.stopthechoppers.ca/HELI%5B1%5D.jpg

[Carbo]

Actually Calgary has 2 now. Im sure Toronto must be able to afford at least 1. Apparently its been huge in the number of grow ops busted in the past couple years.

[Stock R]

I would say that Toronto would benefit from a helicopter.

There's a variety of missions that can be accomplished with a copter. While I was on a business trip in Vancouver, the week before, (Halloween) there was a fight at one of the schools there and the RCMP sent their helicopter out. Next thing you know there was someone down in the parking lot. The chopper followed the car leaving the lot. At first they used the nightsun, but the car knew it was being followed so sped up. They shut it off and used FLIR instead. The car thought they had gotten away. They just followed them home.

As mentioned before, there are uses with it for grow ops. Not only can they detect them, but you can also destory them as well (if they are in fields).

Helicopters also make great survelliance tools.

The costs of operating are not as high as indicted in this thread as well. I won't say how much it costs, but the 10 helicopters the RCMP uses cost less to operate than the figures listed here.

Funding for the aircraft doesn't necessarily have to come form the government itself either. Vancouver just purchased a new EC-120 which was paid for by ICBC. THey believe with the presence of this new aircraft, the extra enforcement in auto related problems will reduce insurance costs enough to justify the plane.

[poedua]

The costs of operating are not as high as indicted in this thread as well. I won't say how much it costs, but the 10 helicopters the RCMP uses cost less to operate than the figures listed here.



Any idea how " much less" ? Ballpark.....5% ? 10%...25% less ?

[nano]

there arent many fields left in Toronto i think the only place their could be a outdoor grow op would be in the rouge valley which conviently boards with durham region..

[mart242]

Any idea how " much less" ? Ballpark.....5% ? 10%...25% less ?

If he's from the RCMP, he should be allowed to tell us becuase it should be public information.

[FastFokker]

there was a fight at one of the schools there and the RCMP sent their helicopter out.Man, what a waste.. some kids get in a fight at school and they send in the chopper.. what a joke. Obviously there is nothing more useful for the aircraft if this is the best missions they can come up with.
The costs of operating are not as high as indicted in this thread as well. I won't say how much it costs, but the 10 helicopters the RCMP uses cost less to operate than the figures listed here.If it costs less, tell us how much then.. the numbers I quoted were taken from other places who are already using choppers.. Think about it, the chopper alone is what.. $5million? Then you've got to pay probably 10 full time people to operate and maintain it (~$50,000/yr). Then you have cost of maintenance parts and the operational costs (fuel, insurance, training, recurrency, hangaring..etc). Not to mention anything else I'm not thinking of at the moment.

I'm interested in hearing your estimate of costs for a chopper. I'll find the links which led me to post it would cost ~$3 million/yr.

[poedua]

Actually Calgary has 2 now. Im sure Toronto must be able to afford at least 1. Apparently its been huge in the number of grow ops busted in the past couple years.

I suppose the best way to assess the need for helicopters is to compare crime / police stats before and after the introduction of helicopters and weigh that against the net cost. i.e is the benefit worth the cost.

As for Toronto, the issue amy not be so much whether a helicopter has merit or not as a tool, but a matter of police resource / focus priorities. For example, is a city budget / private donation funding amount earmarked for a helipcopter for the next 10 years better used to hire more officers/ cars etc. for community policing and to inject more officers of visible minorities to better reflect the diversity of Toronto's population. I mean how important is it to crack down on grow-ops ( who some claim harm no one ) ?.....versus cracking down on urban/ gun crime at the street level with cops on foot patrol and in cars.

In that context, maybe a copter is a ...."nice to have "... tool versus as ...."have to have "..... tool.

[poedua]

Man, what a waste.. some kids get in a fight at school and they send in the chopper.. what a joke. Obviously there is nothing more useful for the aircraft if this is the best missions they can come up with.
If it costs less, tell us how much then.. the numbers I quoted were taken from other places who are already using choppers.. Think about it, the chopper alone is what.. $5million? Then you've got to pay probably 10 full time people to operate and maintain it (~$50,000/yr). Then you have cost of maintenance parts and the operational costs (fuel, insurance, training, recurrency, hangaring..etc). Not to mention anything else I'm not thinking of at the moment.

I'm interested in hearing your estimate of costs for a chopper. I'll find the links which led me to post it would cost ~$3 million/yr.

Good post fastfokker.

You have to wonder, how many cops & cruisers does $3 mill a year get you eh ? :)

[poedua]

there arent many fields left in Toronto i think the only place their could be a outdoor grow op would be in the rouge valley which conviently boards with durham region..

As i said earlier..i think a relevant question is whether grow -ops are at the top of the Toronto cops' list of priorities. There are only so many resources to spread around - where is the greatest need in Tororto policing that is in urgent need of funding ?

[FastFokker]

You have to wonder, how many cops & cruisers does $3 mill a year get you eh ? :)I really have no idea.. but I'm sure it's more than 1 vehicle with 2 occupants. :lol:

I'm all for every city in the world having their own chopper.. it's good for aviation and that's good for me. But people can't just plainly say choppers are affordable or that they make any kind of noticeable difference in crime rates. I would request real data to prove that, before swallowing it.

Here's how I came up with ~$3million a year:
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/conwygwynedd/tm_objectid=16764886&method=full&siteid=50142&headline=questions-over-high-costs-of-helicopter--name_page.html
NORTH Wales Police's helicopter costs tax payers more than £8,000 a day to run, prompting one MP to demand an investigation into the £3 million aircraft.£8,000 = ~$11,000CAD

$11,000 x 365 = $4,000,000CAD/yr

http://www.stopthechoppers.ca/docs/ts.html
The report found it would cost about $2.5 million annually for a fully equipped helicopter that included surveillance and monitoring cameras, infrared devices to locate people or objects by heat imaging, a 30 million-candlepower searchlight, and crew.I believe that's from 2000.. insurance and fuel alone have gone up significantly. I could be wrong on the date though, so we can just accept the $2.5 million /yr.

[poedua]

I really have no idea.. but I'm sure it's more than 1 vehicle with 2 occupants. :lol:

I'm all for every city in the world having their own chopper.. it's good for aviation and that's good for me. But people can't just plainly say choppers are affordable or that they make any kind of noticeable difference in crime rates. I would request real data to prove that, before swallowing it.

Here's how I came up with ~$3million a year:
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/conwygwynedd/tm_objectid=16764886&method=full&siteid=50142&headline=questions-over-high-costs-of-helicopter--name_page.html
£8,000 = ~$11,000CAD

$11,000 x 365 = $4,000,000CAD/yr

http://www.stopthechoppers.ca/docs/ts.html
I believe that's from 2000.. insurance and fuel alone have gone up significantly. I could be wrong on the date though, so we can just accept the $2.5 million /yr.

Good work digging up those facts ....as i said before...I think your true calling is research. :)

[Stock R]

If he's from the RCMP, he should be allowed to tell us becuase it should be public information.

While it may be public information, I don't know what I can say/not say. Better keep my butt safe than be sorry. I'm sure if you really wanted to know, you could request for the information officially.

But just figure that if the $3million is enough for 10 aircraft, it's not too bad. Btw, that's including all fuel and maintenance costs too but not including personnel. Depending on what the aircraft is used for, it'll vary of course. You don't need as much man power as you'd think. A lot of the RCMP air sections out west only have a handful of ppl working.

[Stock R]

Man, what a waste.. some kids get in a fight at school and they send in the chopper.. what a joke. Obviously there is nothing more useful for the aircraft if this is the best missions they can come up with.


I doubt they'd send a helicopter out for a highschool fight. By the time the pilot drove to the airport, filed out a flight plan, etc. Everything would've finished already.

In the instance I mentioned, they had just finished something else and were in the area.

[FastFokker]

I doubt they'd send a helicopter out for a highschool fight. By the time the pilot drove to the airport, filed out a flight plan, etc. Everything would've finished already.I believe the officers are actually on duty at the hangar, waiting for calls and that a dispatcher files the flightplans.. they just suit up, run to the machine and get it airborne ASAP.

Either way, you're right many events happen quick and it takes time to call something in and then have it forwarded to the chopper and then get them airborn.. likely many events are long done by the time they arrive.

In any event.. I do see a usefullness to have a completely multi-role machine. One that can be used for police service, for medivac and for search & rescue. If you can get a machine that will do everything, there's more bang for the buck.

[Stock R]

I really have no idea.. but I'm sure it's more than 1 vehicle with 2 occupants. :lol:

I'm all for every city in the world having their own chopper.. it's good for aviation and that's good for me. But people can't just plainly say choppers are affordable or that they make any kind of noticeable difference in crime rates. I would request real data to prove that, before swallowing it.

Here's how I came up with ~$3million a year:
http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk/news/conwygwynedd/tm_objectid=16764886&method=full&siteid=50142&headline=questions-over-high-costs-of-helicopter--name_page.html
£8,000 = ~$11,000CAD

$11,000 x 365 = $4,000,000CAD/yr

http://www.stopthechoppers.ca/docs/ts.html
I believe that's from 2000.. insurance and fuel alone have gone up significantly. I could be wrong on the date though, so we can just accept the $2.5 million /yr.

A lot of it will depend on how the operations are run. What are the aircraft being used for exactly? In your 2nd link, that was based on 2 helicopters patrolling the skies all the time it seems. Do you really need the helicopters on 24/7? The amount of man power(pilot+obvserver)+fuel required would be crazy.

If being used on a "needed" basis, a required crew, and factoring in maintenance time, etc. The number wouldn't be nearly as scary. I'd find it hard to believe a site like "stopthechoppers.ca" would be anythign but biased right?

[ZenOps]

The helicopter in Calgary has cut down on grow-ops dramatically. You know its overhead and looking when it does circle sweeps of the same area.

Equipped with a top of the line infrared heat sensor, it can most times pickup the individual lights from a typical grow op, if not the overall +5 to 10 degree heat signature that leaves the roof even if you insulate like mad.

[Stock R]

I believe the officers are actually on duty at the hangar, waiting for calls and that a dispatcher files the flightplans.. they just suit up, run to the machine and get it airborne ASAP.

In any event.. I do see a usefullness to have a completely multi-role machine. One that can be used for police service, for medivac and for search & rescue. If you can get a machine that will do everything, there's more bang for the buck.

I think that may be the difference between the pilot project you linked and the way the RCMP runs their operations. There aren't pilots+mechanics just chilling at the hangar till they are needed.

While a multi-role machine woudl be nice, I think it'd also be hard to make such a compromise. Something like the AS-350, EC-120 is way too small to be used in that manner. You could you a Bell 206L I guess, but it's not quite the same as the others...

[FastFokker]

The amount of man power(pilot+obvserver)+fuel required would be crazy. You still have to pay them if they're sitting on their butts in the hangar lounge waiting for a call. Also, I believe both occupants are actually trained pilots. Least, that's how I believe most programs are run.

Either way, the costs are heavy.. even if the aircraft sits in the hangar 24/7, the money is flowing to pay for the program. Only thing saved is fuel and maintenance.
I'd find it hard to believe a site like "stopthechoppers.ca" would be anythign but biased right?Well that just happens to be the site that holds the article written by Brian McAndrew, which I believe was published by The Star. It's a really old article, my guess was from 2000.. so the costs are likely increased since.

[T-Bone]

Here in Calgary, it's a great idea:

On October 8, 1993 the Calgary Police Service and citizens of Calgary suffered the loss of an officer in the line of duty. Constable Rick Sonnenberg is killed while trying to stop a speeding stolen vehicle.

Acquiring HAWC1 is the direct result of a project entitled 'Helicopter Air Watch for Community Safety,' best known to Calgarians as HAWCS. The project was launched as a tribute to the officer who died in the line of duty, and involved hard work and dedication on the parts of many concerned and generous Calgarians. The non-profit HAWCS group has raised $1.5 million through lotteries, tournaments, corporate sponsorships, private donations and a provincial grant.

That being said, I absolutely hated that damn chopper when I lived downtown, when they did circles around the neighbourhood at 10:30 at night when I was trying to get to sleep. There is nothing more annoying then the constant drum of a helicopter nearby and it stays in the area for an hour.

I swear they were just using the copter to radio to a hidden cop car pickup speeders along the major road where I live.

Here is more info:
http://www.gov.calgary.ab.ca/police/inside/hawc.html

[T-Bone]

http://www.alea.org/pics/images/hawc/hawc-001.JPG

[FastFokker]

Here's a picture of HAWC-1 fighting crime:

http://photos.airliners.net/photos/middle/0/7/6/0971670.jpg

Joooooooooookin! :razz:

Specs on the aircraft:
http://www.mdhelicopters.com/helicopters/pdf/MD520NTechSpecs/520n_all.pdf

[poedua]

You still have to pay them if they're sitting on their butts in the hangar lounge waiting for a call. Also, I believe both occupants are actually trained pilots. Least, that's how I believe most programs are run.

Either way, the costs are heavy.. even if the aircraft sits in the hangar 24/7, the money is flowing to pay for the program. Only thing saved is fuel and maintenance.
Well that just happens to be the site that holds the article written by Brian McAndrew, which I believe was published by The Star. It's a really old article, my guess was from 2000.. so the costs are likely increased since.

In the debate as to where police money is best spent, I notice in the National Post today they are attributing more public cooperation in solving crimes in Toronto to having more cops on the street / front lines.....

"Of the 13 murders in 2006, 10 have been solved, the equivalent of a 77% clearance rate, although police caution it's too early to consider this a trend. Last year, the homicide squad had a clearance rate slightly above 50%, with many of the unsolved murders linked to gangs and guns.

Police are crediting multifaceted strategies that have placed more uniformed officers on the streets of crime-ridden communities and more investigators assigned to such squads as the guns and gangs unit that target specific types of crime. The new Toronto Anti-Violence Intervention Strategy includes three roving response teams that are called in to patrol neighbourhoods where crime has reached unmanageable levels. "

...given a choice...I'd lean toward more more cops on the street than sinking bucks into a copter...at least at this moment in ths city's history.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/toronto/story.html?id=0e7c8fbb-1f5a-4785-9156-da043e7a353e

[DirtyDave]

I agree with your logic, but unfortunately the GTA doesn't work that way. I belive York and Durham are seperately funded, so Toronto really don't have any right to use their choppers. Their choppers are also located far away, it's of no use when needed even if York lets metro borrow them.

Choppers deter pursuits, right now you pretty much just have to run and the cops are forced to call it off. Choppers worked in Edmonton to deter people from running.

Choppers in the air can locate people who are hiding at night, respond (if already in air) quickly to say a shots fired crime scene and increase the possibility of finding the culprits.

also dont forget they also use them for finding grow-ops with infra red.

Grow-ops = organized crime.
Organized crime = gang problem in toronto.
gang problem in toronto = gun violence in toronto.
gun violence in toronto = dead inoccent by standers.

so I say Toronto desperatly needs a chopper

[FastFokker]

Nice math equation..

Grow-ops=dead innocent by standers

:lol:

The problem is, if supply drops, price just increases.. either way, the money is made. If you want to actually destroy your equation, then legalize marijuana... that will collapse the street value of weed.

[fuhreal]

OK I didn't bother reading all the posts but, i could have sworn the metro cops have had a chopper for at least 5 years. I got a spotlight on me from one on my driveway in scarbs .. about yah.. 5 years ago...

[henesse]

a helicopter can shine a bright light on a house with criminals in it. YAY!

you forgot infrared.

I think toronto needs one for sure and work out of north york since most crimes are commited outside downtown toronto. if its north york it could cover both scarborough and etobicoke.

[FastFokker]

you forgot infrared
Infrared won't show "criminals" in a house.

[henesse]

Infrared won't show "criminals" in a house.

I think that was the case 5 years ago but i've seen some serious gadgets the gtf2 team is using and looks like they could.

[henesse]

Infrared won't show "criminals" in a house.


but yeah you are right it wont have a popup balloon saying criminal #1 and #2. lol. but i guess erratic movements and other factors could play apart with a trained eye.

[FastFokker]

Infrared only sees what's visual to the eye.. it highlights the contrast in temperatures, it cannot see through walls or roofs.
I think that was the case 5 years ago but i've seen some serious gadgets the gtf2 team is using and looks like they could.They can't see through anything, there was recently an investigation because of a allegations of invasion of privacy on behalf of FLIR systems searching for grow ops. The investigation proved FLIR cannot see through anything and therefore it's not an invasion of privacy and no warrant is required.

[henesse]

Infrared only sees what's visual to the eye.. it highlights the contrast in temperatures, it cannot see through walls or roofs.
They can't see through anything, there was recently an investigation because of a allegations of invasion of privacy on behalf of FLIR systems searching for grow ops. The investigation proved FLIR cannot see through anything and therefore it's not an invasion of privacy and no warrant is required.


maybe the investigation had something to do with short range ir.
long range ir picks up heat behind the walls.
http://www.howstuffworks.com/gadget93.htm
thats a very basic example.

I've seen some spec-ops equipments which give you the full ability to see thorugh walls. I dont realy have the time to do the research again. ebay should have tons of them.

[FastFokker]

Yes there is technologies which can "see" through walls and certain structures, but again the FLIR systems on Police Helicopters cannot see through anything. All they can do is detect the heat emitted from a surface.

FLIR (regardless of short range or long range) can only "see" what is there, that you could see with your eye, if not hidden by darkness, fog, smoke or dust.

In any event, I'm not sure why were even debating this, to use equipment which can see through the walls or roof, you need a warrant, otherwise it's an invasion of privacy.

Here's examples of what FLIR (thermal imaging) looks like:
http://www.ir55.com/images/1_WH_Thermal_Stealth_camera_IR_imaging.gifhttp://www.ir55.com/images/1_Porsche_964_Thermal%20image.gifhttp://www.ir55.com/images/1_White_hot_360_Thermal_imager_Vehicle_Image.gifht tp://www.ir55.com/images/1_Midnight_thermal_image_surveillance.gifhttp://www.ir55.com/images/225_bigfoot_2.jpg

[charger]

ARGHH! Don't call it a "chopper" it drives anyone who is remotely involved in the aircraft industry nuts. Call it a helo, thats what everyone in the industry calls them because chopper sounds ********.

[FastFokker]

I call it a "fling wing".

Well.. because it is. But I guess I also call them choppers because the general public understands that. I'll try to stop though. :lol:

[poedua]

ARGHH! Don't call it a "chopper" it drives anyone who is remotely involved in the aircraft industry nuts. Call it a helo, thats what everyone in the industry calls them because chopper sounds ********.

Well. Most people aren't in the industry. "Chopper" is much more common and thus accepted as being the colloquial / slang term IMO. Even the CBC uses it.....


'Air One' police chopper unveiled '

http://www.cbc.ca/bc/story/bc_helicopter20060213.html

[RC Sam]

Might help toronto catch crime. But can also raise fuel prices. (U no that heli's uses a lot of gas)