Reform Party immigration policy being implemented

[mbg]

The Conservative platform didn't say anything about this, but it was a part of the Reform platform:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1142894779915&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154

[FastFokker]

Harper is standing up for Canada.

[mbg]

I think it's reasonable policy, and much of the Canadian objection will be self-interested statements like, "but we need them to build our houses and clean our toilets!"

Family reunification can work both ways, and they are keeping the Conservative policy of keeping families together by returning the whole family, and not just one or two members.

[danfromwaterloo]

Here here!

I'd FAR rather have people who go through the system, and decide to leech off the system, than allow decent, hard working illegal aliens from remaining in the system.

Way to stand up for Canada!

[danfromwaterloo]

I think it's reasonable policy, and much of the Canadian objection will be self-interested statements like, "but we need them to build our houses!"

Guess what? Much of Canada is reliant upon illegal aliens to do the jobs that regular Canadians don't want to do. We import foreign workers to press our pants, harvest our crops, and build our houses. And for their efforts, they get below minimum wage, no healthcare, and a kick in the ass when their job is done.

[Byrns]

What part of illegal do people have problems figuring out?

[mbg]

Guess what? Much of Canada is reliant upon illegal aliens to do the jobs that regular Canadians don't want to do.

i.e. build our houses and clean our toilets.

I'm not saying that the decision is easy, but "let them stay because they clean our toilets" is a difficult statement for me to make.

I'll be interested to see what they do to expedite foreign credential recognition... those skilled jobs are the jobs Canada really needs for the future. The high school dropouts currently in IT management can clean the toilets :)

(I know the last part is silly -- they'll never clean toilets, no matter how dire their situation, and I recognize that that's your argument. I agree. But, I like Harper's message).

We import foreign workers to press our pants, harvest our crops, and build our houses. And for their efforts, they get below minimum wage, no healthcare, and a kick in the ass when their job is done.

Well, then, the NDP should be against it because of poor working conditions and low wages. You'd think the Conservatives would be for it because it provides a cheap labour source to businesses. Maybe there's more to this Conservative party than big business interest.

[hagbard]

Real conservatives favor a more open immigration policy. In the States, for example, its the Democrats that oppose "liberal" immigration policies. Open immigration and free trade are two sides of the same coin. What they don't support is public handouts.

OTOH, I go with lower immigration because without more immigrates, the housing market will collapse (not that it won't anyway, but it will completely tank). Like to pick up some cheap real estate. :lol:

[go leafs]

They should have immigrated legally if they wanted to stay in the country. They are illegal workers. And this is not some Reform policy, as the article says,


Immigration officials now say they will continue to enforce the existing policy, with increased resources.

In February, Immigration Canada notified the Portuguese embassy in Ottawa that it would continue with the current law and be strict in applying it, Maria Amélia Paiva, the consul-general in Toronto, told the Star's Isabel Teotonio.

[mbg]

They should have immigrated legally if they wanted to stay in the country. They are illegal workers. And this is not some Reform policy, as the article says,

The article doesn't say it's Reform policy. That's what I said. The Reform policy was to deal harshly with illegal immigration.

The new government is simply enforcing the existing law.

[hagbard]

They should have immigrated legally if they wanted to stay in the country. They are illegal workers. And this is not some Reform policy, as the article says,

You're ignoring the first paragragh:

Illegal workers in Toronto's underground economy are being deported as the new Conservative government abandons a Liberal amnesty plan, immigration lawyers and consultants say.

[mbg]

Illegal workers in Toronto's underground economy are being deported as the new Conservative government abandons a Liberal amnesty plan, immigration lawyers and consultants say.

It was a plan, not legislation. It was never implemented.

[hagbard]

It was a plan, not legislation. It was never implemented.

Oh, well the Reformers should implement it then. They won't, of course, because they're ignorant and xenophobic. They're bible thumping racists too, but I would never mention that. ;)

[mbg]

They're bible thumping racists too, but I would never mention that. ;)

The Liberals are all crooks and the NDP is only interested in the needs of the unions.

I'd never mention that, either, because it's not true.

[bionicbadger]

Oh, well the Reformers should implement it then. They won't, of course, because they're ignorant and xenophobic. They're bible thumping racists too, but I would never mention that. ;)

So why have an immigration policy in the first place? Why not eliminate the bordereguards, immigration and customs officials and just let everyone who feels like it in the country?
The laws exist for a reason, those people being deported are staying in canada illegally. They broke the rules. They are too too dumb/lazy to go through the system and therefore should be kicked out. There are enough lawbreakers in canada as it is, we dont need to import more from other countries. If they want to come to canada there is a process they can go through to become immigrants.

EDIT: bad spelling

[danfromwaterloo]

i.e. build our houses and clean our toilets.

I'm not saying that the decision is easy, but "let them stay because they clean our toilets" is a difficult statement for me to make.

Rephrase that: let them stay because they are of benefit to our society and have jobs. Just because those jobs are what we consider beneath us makes no difference. If they were all doctors, I think people would change their tune.


I'll be interested to see what they do to expedite foreign credential recognition... those skilled jobs are the jobs Canada really needs for the future. The high school dropouts currently in IT management can clean the toilets :)

Do I want a doctor from Spain or Italy working on me? Sure. Do you want a doctor who was educated in the University of Madagascar? I'm not so sure. The problem with the current foreign credential recognition is that they pretty much cut all people from the same cloth. One of my coworker's husband is from Albania, who was a district attorney there. He can't practice law here. I find that a shame.



Well, then, the NDP should be against it because of poor working conditions and low wages. You'd think the Conservatives would be for it because it provides a cheap labour source to businesses. Maybe there's more to this Conservative party than big business interest.

The reason why the Conservatives are for it is because its a bigotted right-wing platform: no immigrants. I don't care how good they are for the economy, or how hard working they are. They're illegal immigrants, so out they go. You can almost see Harper putting on the stetson while he says this.

Immigrants (yes, even the illegal ones) are the grease that helps the gears of this society revolve. His actions are reckless.

[Byrns]

You forgot about the increased levels of crime the illegals bring with them... The ones who don't make enough money under the table, who then have to steal or worse to stay alive.

If they're illegal they need to go.

[mbg]

Rephrase that: let them stay because they are of benefit to our society and have jobs. Just because those jobs are what we consider beneath us makes no difference. If they were all doctors, I think people would change their tune.

Why not try and encourage the government to recognize this need and allow such immigrants to enter the country legally, then?

Do I want a doctor from Spain or Italy working on me? Sure. Do you want a doctor who was educated in the University of Madagascar? I'm not so sure. The problem with the current foreign credential recognition is that they pretty much cut all people from the same cloth.

Yes, that's a problem.

One of my coworker's husband is from Albania, who was a district attorney there. He can't practice law here. I find that a shame.

I agree. But, he should at least have to take some equalization courses to make up for the differences between his native country and this one, and pass the same exams that Canadian lawyers have to pass in order to begin practicing in this country.

The reason why the Conservatives are for it is because its a bigotted right-wing platform: no immigrants.

That wasn't their stated platform, so you must have other knowledge. It wasn't even in the Reform platform. The Reform platform was tough on illegal immigration, but otherwise allowed equal opportunity through the legal immigration system.

I don't care how good they are for the economy, or how hard working they are. They're illegal immigrants, so out they go. You can almost see Harper putting on the stetson while he says this.

Another part of the Conservative platform was to encourage, through tax incentives, legal citizens to pursue required skills. I think this is the preferred approach, but there's obviously going to be a gap between what's generated through this and what's required. Part of the blame for this lies with parents who've misunderstood what it means to have a university education, and force kids who aren't suited for it, or interested in it, to go that path anyway.

We may be hard up for toilet cleaners, though, if Harper continues with this.

Immigrants (yes, even the illegal ones) are the grease that helps the gears of this society revolve. His actions are reckless.

I don't disagree. But, it's a bit unfair to the legal immigrants to affirm illegal immigration. Immigration policy controls what comes in so that we don't have an excess of resources that aren't needed. I don't like subversion of those controls because it undermines the system.

The immigrants in the Star article sounded a bit laissez-faire in their expectations; trying to claim refugee status coming from Portugal is a bit of a stretch.

[go leafs]

The reason why the Conservatives are for it is because its a bigotted right-wing platform: no immigrants. I don't care how good they are for the economy, or how hard working they are. They're illegal immigrants, so out they go. You can almost see Harper putting on the stetson while he says this.


I don't remember reading 'no immigrants' in their platform
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060320.wimmig0320/BNStory/National/home
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1142894779922

[hagbard]

So why have an immigration policy in the first place? Why not eliminate the bordereguards, immigration and customs officials and just let everyone who feels like it in the country?

Sure, why not.


The laws exist for a reason,

To make their ignorant voters happy.

[danfromwaterloo]

Why not try and encourage the government to recognize this need and allow such immigrants to enter the country legally, then?

It defeats the point of having them. The minute they become legal, they're entitled to minimum wage. It would cost too much money to pay these people minimum wage.


I agree. But, he should at least have to take some equalization courses to make up for the differences between his native country and this one, and pass the same exams that Canadian lawyers have to pass in order to begin practicing in this country.

Different systems of law. They use rule law, we use case law. There's too big a difference.

That wasn't their stated platform, so you must have other knowledge. It wasn't even in the Reform platform. The Reform platform was tough on illegal immigration, but otherwise allowed equal opportunity through the legal immigration system.

Its been a longstanding platform of the right-wing to limit immigration. Its been the longstanding platform of the left-wing to open it up.

Another part of the Conservative platform was to encourage, through tax incentives, legal citizens to pursue required skills. I think this is the preferred approach, but there's obviously going to be a gap between what's generated through this and what's required. Part of the blame for this lies with parents who've misunderstood what it means to have a university education, and force kids who aren't suited for it, or interested in it, to go that path anyway.

Huh?

[FastFokker]

Fortunately for politicians, illegal workers can't vote.

[ethansmith]

They are already here. Why waste more money uprooting these hard working people? How about assessing them, making them legal, and then strengthening the rules so that others can't come illegally in the future. It's not their fault if the current or old rules weren't strong enough.

I'd say show your discontent over this by writing the Government but thanks to other recent Conservative developments, your responce will be:

==========================
Dear Mr. Joe Blow

Thank you for your concerns about our Immigration policy. We would like to inform you that we will be reducing the GST from 7 to 6 to 5 percent. Also, every child, 6 years of age an under, will recieve a child care package of $1200 a year.

We hope that clears up any concernt that you may have had.

Thanks again for your letter.

Yours,
The Conservative Party of Canada
We Love God And War
==========================


... or something similar.

--Ethan

[go leafs]

They are already here. Why waste more money uprooting these hard working people? How about assessing them, making them legal, and then strengthening the rules so that others can't come illegally in the future. It's not their fault if the current or old rules weren't strong enough.



so they knowingly broke the law and it's not their fault?!!!?!!

[Nathan183]

Do these illegal immigrants pay taxes? Not likely!

They aren't contributing much to society. Sure there are some good ones, but for ever hard-working, honest illegal immigrant, there are some at resort to crime to support themselves and their families.

If we do have a need for labourers, we should increase the number of legal immigrants. However, I'm sure there are thousands of people on unimployment who would love the opportunity to build houses.

[mbg]

Do these illegal immigrants pay taxes? Not likely!

That was one thing I found confusing about the Star article. One of the quoted said that they were paying income tax.

Then again, the same quoted also claimed that they were doing everything by the book. Considering that they're illegal immigrants who came to visit relatives and decided to stay illegally (as opposed to those who escaped some kind of persecution at home), and then tried to get admitted as refugees, that's also a bit confusing.

[doc_ock]

Oh, well the Reformers should implement it then. They won't, of course, because they're ignorant and xenophobic. They're bible thumping racists too, but I would never mention that. ;)
How similar this tactic seems to the one that some jews use to accuse anyone who dares oppose Israeli policy as anti-semitic. Americans are encountering similar problems in their country these days, especially on their southern border. Special interest groups like "La Raza" use similar arguments to the ones posted in this thread.Guess what? Much of Canada is reliant upon illegal aliens to do the jobs that regular Canadians don't want to do. These same special interest groups, lobbyists, and supporters call anyone who wants to debate immigration policy or advocate border security as racist. Illegal immigration/amnesty/guest worker program or any other synonym is a bad idea. There is no such thing as cheap illegal immigrant labour. The legal taxpayers always end up subsidizing companies who employ cheap illegal immigrant labour. Did anyone watch what has happened in France recently or problems in other European nations. Some of the members here on RFD should watch Lou Dobbs Tonight. weekdays @ 6:00 P.M. eastern on CNN. Honest debate on immigration policy is needed in Canada and Canadians should not be afraid of being labelled a racist for doing so. It may take courage, but it is worthwhile.

[danfromwaterloo]

These same special interest groups, lobbyists, and supporters call anyone who wants to debate immigration policy or advocate border security as racist. Illegal immigration/amnesty/guest worker program or any other synonym is a bad idea. There is no such thing as cheap illegal immigrant labour.

Wanna bet? We import illegal workers from Jamaica, Mexico, the Dominican, and other poorer countries up to Canada for the summer and fall months to work the fields and collect all our food before shipping them off again. Its naive to think it ONLY happens on farms.



The legal taxpayers always end up subsidizing companies who employ cheap illegal immigrant labour. Did anyone watch what has happened in France recently or problems in other European nations. Some of the members here on RFD should watch Lou Dobbs Tonight. weekdays @ 6:00 P.M. eastern on CNN. Honest debate on immigration policy is needed in Canada and Canadians should not be afraid of being labelled a racist for doing so. It may take courage, but it is worthwhile.

Yes, I intend to watch CNN...one of many mouthpieces of the US government. I'd far rather watch the BBC. Nobody is labelling people against immigration as being racist, but why would you be against immigration without moving toward racist ideas? Our economy is thriving - we have a lot of jobs that need filling. Why not bring in people who can do them, and tax them? In the coming years, we won't have enough able bodied adults able to support the growing elderly. Why not import them from countries where there is no jobs?

[dark169]

Why not come here legally? (unless they couldn't for any number of reasons) so this family has been living and breaking canadian law and gets caught and we're suposed to feel bad for them?

[hagbard]

How similar this tactic seems to the one that some jews use to accuse anyone who dares oppose Israeli policy as anti-semitic. Americans are encountering similar problems in their country these days, especially on their southern border. Special interest groups like "La Raza" use similar arguments to the ones posted in this thread. These same special interest groups, lobbyists, and supporters call anyone who wants to debate immigration policy or advocate border security as racist. Illegal immigration/amnesty/guest worker program or any other synonym is a bad idea. There is no such thing as cheap illegal immigrant labour. The legal taxpayers always end up subsidizing companies who employ cheap illegal immigrant labour.

Get rid of the welfare system...problem solved.

Some of the members here on RFD should watch Lou Dobbs

Speaking of xenophobic racists.

Why not come here legally? (unless they couldn't for any number of reasons) so this family has been living and breaking canadian law and gets caught and we're suposed to feel bad for them?

Bad laws are made to be broken. In my view, 90% of them are bad.

[asim99]

the government's first priority should be the welfare of legal immigrants and refugees

[hagbard]

the government's first priority should be the welfare of legal immigrants and refugees

Why?

[asim99]

Why?
because that's the way it should be :P

kidding aside, immigrants/refugees that do not follow the immigration rules and can not prove danger to their person in their native lands should not be allowed same or higher priority than those who do and can

[doc_ock]

Wanna bet? We import illegal workers from Jamaica, Mexico, the Dominican, and other poorer countries up to Canada for the summer and fall months to work the fields and collect all our food before shipping them off again. Its naive to think it ONLY happens on farms.What's naive is to think that illegal immigrants are all temporary workers and all can be shipped out after the job is done. ;) Who pays to keep track of these "desperately needed workers" and makes sure that the leave? I have no doubt that Canada imports illegal immigrants. I also have no doubt that the companies who pay for their service get cheap labour. Illegal immigration doesn't come cheap. Who pays for the health care, insurance, ESL and the myriad of other integration and social programs? Do the illegal immigrants' kids go to school? Does the government provide any low-cost subsidized housing? How much money does the government lose in taxes not collected?
Yes, I intend to watch CNN...one of many mouthpieces of the US government.I don't think anyone who actually has watched Lou Dobbs would accuse him of being a mouthpeice for the American government. Nobody is labelling people against immigration as being racist, but why would you be against immigration without moving toward racist ideas?It happens all the time and many people do it. Why are the motives of people who want to discuss immigration put into question? Who says immigration is always about race? How many non visible minority immigrants are there in Canada?Our economy is thriving - we have a lot of jobs that need filling. Why not bring in people who can do them, and tax them?Sure, sometimes it is a good idea to supplement the work force with qualified, legal immigration. Sometimes it is also beneficial to train home grown resources to do the job and not be wasteful of the talent that Canada already has to offer. In the coming years, we won't have enough able bodied adults able to support the growing elderly. Why not import them from countries where there is no jobs?Immigration isn't the cure all for everything. Canda loses 4 in 10 skilled immigrants within the first 10 years of arrival to Canada. Perhaps Canadians may have to face certain realities and live within their means.

[Shook1s]

While I don't like the idea of loads of aliens, the argument that they are leaching is not the strongest.

How can they leach off of public programs etc, if they don't have papers?

While I don't disagree with the policy I don't think giving someone two weeks to get out is even close to reasonable.

[doc_ock]

Speaking of xenophobic racists.
Why am I not surprised?

[doc_ock]

How can they leach off of public programs etc, if they don't have papers?
Can Canadian ERs deny service?

[go leafs]

Bad laws are made to be broken. In my view, 90% of them are bad.

made to be broken? are you coming from a liberal / libertarian p.o.v or deconstructivist or what??
(or anarchist? ;) )

[go leafs]

While I don't like the idea of loads of aliens, the argument that they are leaching is not the strongest.

How can they leach off of public programs etc, if they don't have papers?


The public/taxpayer pays for roads, power (in many cases), public transport, sewers, water, lighting, police (protection), firefighting etc.

[nano]

Can Canadian ERs deny service?yes they can if you have a ontario health card you are subject to a service charge.

[Shook1s]

The public/taxpayer pays for roads, power (in many cases), public transport, sewers, water, lighting, police (protection), firefighting etc.

They sure do, good point.

But does that mean a family seeking refuge (regardless of if you think its just cause or not) is leeching?

As long as the money they earn is spent in Canada, whats the problem.

[CSK'sMom]

[QUOTE=danfromwaterloo]Wanna bet? We import illegal workers from Jamaica, Mexico, the Dominican, and other poorer countries up to Canada for the summer and fall months to work the fields and collect all our food before shipping them off again. Its naive to think it ONLY happens on farms.

QUOTE]
Dan, I highly suggest you do some research into seasonal farm workers. There are many hoops that farmers have to jump through to bring workers in from offshore. There are literally thousands brought into Niagara yearly to work in the orchards and vineyards. We know many a farmer and not one employs illegals for many a reason, including the substantial fines, etc. When they bring a man to work, that man must qualify for a visa. The farmer is 100% responsible for that man. They must provide housing, medical care, etc. Farmers tend to bring the same men back year after year...

[CSK'sMom]

[QUOTE=danfromwaterloo]Wanna bet? We import illegal workers from Jamaica, Mexico, the Dominican, and other poorer countries up to Canada for the summer and fall months to work the fields and collect all our food before shipping them off again. Its naive to think it ONLY happens on farms.

[QUOTE]
Dan, I highly suggest you do some research into seasonal farm workers. There are many hoops that farmers have to jump through to bring workers in from offshore. There are literally thousands brought into Niagara yearly to work in the orchards and vineyards. We know many a farmer and not one employs illegals for many a reason, including the substantial fines, etc. When they bring a man to work, that man must qualify for a visa. The farmer is 100% responsible for that man. They must provide housing, medical care, etc. Farmers tend to bring the same men back year after year...

[Evil Baby]

I have no problem with deporting illegeal immigrants as long as it's not the easy way out for immigration officials.

This is just something I heard on one of the radio stations so I have no idea if it is true or not. Feel free to correct me.

Appearently immigration has a certain quota they have to fill each month/year and instead of going after the illegal criminal immigrants they pick these families who are working passed their visa expiration date and trying to apply for citizenship. I think more effort should be put on the real criminals then go after these guys.

The simple fact is they are here illegally so they really have no right to fight deportation. It's a chance you take when you come to Canada on a work visa hoping to get landed status.

[Evil Baby]

Dan, I highly suggest you do some research into seasonal farm workers. There are many hoops that farmers have to jump through to bring workers in from offshore. There are literally thousands brought into Niagara yearly to work in the orchards and vineyards. We know many a farmer and not one employs illegals for many a reason, including the substantial fines, etc. When they bring a man to work, that man must qualify for a visa. The farmer is 100% responsible for that man. They must provide housing, medical care, etc. Farmers tend to bring the same men back year after year...

However those workers are hilarious with their winter coats in the summer. But damnd do they work hard.

[CSK'sMom]

Evil, you are absolutely right, they work damned hard. They are already starting to arrive here which means you can't buy a used bicycle anywhere. They snatch them all up! It's great though if you're selling one. :) It also means the grocery stores closest to those areas are absolutely packed with seasonal workers on Friday nights. The farmers bus them all in at the same time.

[doc_ock]

yes they can if you have a ontario health card you are subject to a service charge.
Okay. So EMS and the nurses leave you in the hallway at emergency to die if you have had a heart attack and can't pay the charge? ;) What about forged documents or fake credit cards. Lord knows illegal immigrants always follow the rules. :rolleyes:

[st7860]

I know nothing about the labour market in Ontario, however in BC there's a lack of trades. but trades in BC pay pretty well (plumbing, carpentry, etc). I wonder what will happen if the illegal ones are all 'booted' out.

The problem isn't the pay, the problem is young people don't want to enter the 'trades'.

[doc_ock]

I know nothing about the labour market in Ontario, however in BC there's a lack of trades. but trades in BC pay pretty well (plumbing, carpentry, etc). I wonder what will happen if the illegal ones are all 'booted' out.

The problem isn't the pay, the problem is young people don't want to enter the 'trades'.
I found this article Regan has already had talks with local MLA Joan McIntyre about the labour shortage. He suggests one solution could be to bring qualified workers here from Australia or other places on a three-year work visa. They would establish set contracts and wages before issuing the visa and if those contracts were broken the workers could be sent home.

Another solution is to promote the trades to high school students.

"It really hasn’t been well promoted through the school system probably for 20 years," said Bob Deeks, president of the Whistler chapter of the Canadian Homebuilders Association.

The CHBA has offered a $500 scholarship at Whistler Secondary School for the last two years for any student going into the construction trades. This year they expanded the offer to high schools in Squamish and Pemberton. Only one person has applied for it in two years and that student was interested in auto mechanics.

Dr. Rick Erickson, superintendent of the Howe Sound School District admits the schools are a little behind in the trades initiatives but they have recognized the increasing demand in the corridor and have responded accordingly.

This September a carpentry program started up at Pemberton Secondary. Twenty-two of the school’s 300 students are enrolled and there is a waitlist of 30. The board is looking at expanding the program to Howe Sound Secondary in Squamish.

"I guess I’d say that we are a little behind in the trades initiatives and we’re catching up fast and it is a high priority for the board to offer opportunities within the corridor and as close to home as we can get them," said Erickson.

"We recognize that the jobs are here."

He said there is also the worry that students may not finish high school because workers are in such high demand.
http://www.pique.bc.ca/pique/index.php?cat=C_News&content=Construction+1250

Canadians are under served because of laziness, poor planning and absence of quality leadership. Why are these situations only addressed after they have become problems?

[CSK'sMom]

I know nothing about the labour market in Ontario, however in BC there's a lack of trades. but trades in BC pay pretty well (plumbing, carpentry, etc). I wonder what will happen if the illegal ones are all 'booted' out.

The problem isn't the pay, the problem is young people don't want to enter the 'trades'.

It's the same in Ont. The problem with the illegals is that they generally come in and undercut going rates and union rates. In some trades the undercutting of prices by illegals have caused long time skilled tradesmen to find alternative employment...

[charger]

I know nothing about the labour market in Ontario, however in BC there's a lack of trades. but trades in BC pay pretty well (plumbing, carpentry, etc). I wonder what will happen if the illegal ones are all 'booted' out.

The problem isn't the pay, the problem is young people don't want to enter the 'trades'.

Wait 2 years. I go to a college where the trades are bursting at the seams, they can't get enough space to accomodate these people. There are 2000 people who will be graduating this year, 2200 next year, and 2600 the year after that. And this is one college. I am in a business program and everyone is leaving to go into the trades because that is where the money is.

There are going to be too many carpenters in less than 4 years and the wages are just like a bubble that will pop once the market supply is equalized.

[d_jedi]

If they are here illegally, then they should be deported. There are legal immigration channels that they can go through.. why did they choose to ignore this route and come here illegally? If we turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants, will this not undermine the legal immigration system?

To be sure, I think we should be putting a priority to tracking down criminals who are to be deported over families trying to make a living, though..

[doc_ock]

To be sure, I think we should be putting a priority to tracking down criminals who are to be deported over families trying to make a living, though..
I hope this federal government doesn't use the easy cases as an excuse not to go after the difficult ones. I'm not in favour of special treatment. All illegal immigrants must be deported! Both sets of illegal immigrants, "criminals who are to be deported" and "families trying to make a living", are breaking the law. :mad: I wish that people wouldn't encourage the use of rationalizing terms or labels. These families trying to make a living cost the Canadian taxpayer lots of money. Do illegal immigrants pay taxes? Do they pay insurance? Do they use health care? Are their children attending school? Who keeps track of them when they enter the country? Do they continue to break our laws after they broke the law to enter Canada? Who pays for more police or government officials that may be needed? Who pays to deport them? Why are some Canadians content to subsidize companies who break the law, by hiring illegal immigrants, for cheap(er) labour?

[Dukes]

Good Stuff!

[Dukes]

Get the illegal immigrants out of here and STAND UP FOR CANADA!

I would really like to see a return th the older immigration system, where you had to be able to speak one of our two official languages to get in... Then maybe our country would be a little more effective...

[d_jedi]

I hope this federal government doesn't use the easy cases as an excuse not to go after the difficult ones. I'm not in favour of special treatment. All illegal immigrants must be deported! Both sets of illegal immigrants, "criminals who are to be deported" and "families trying to make a living", are breaking the law. :mad: I wish that people wouldn't encourage the use of rationalizing terms or labels. These families trying to make a living cost the Canadian taxpayer lots of money. Do illegal immigrants pay taxes? Do they pay insurance? Do they use health care? Are their children attending school? Who keeps track of them when they enter the country? Do they continue to break our laws after they broke the law to enter Canada? Who pays for more police or government officials that may be needed? Who pays to deport them? Why are some Canadians content to subsidize companies who break the law, by hiring illegal immigrants, for cheap(er) labour?
All I'm saying is if they have a choice between going after a drug dealer/murderer/etc. who is to be deported, or a construction worker.. the priority should be to get the drug dealer out of the country, even if they're harder to track down..

[hagbard]

made to be broken? are you coming from a liberal / libertarian p.o.v or deconstructivist or what??
(or anarchist? ;) )

Market anarchist. As for the topic, you could just as easly make the case from a utilitarian argument. Immigration is good for a country. It can be potentially bad if immigrants come to take advantage of a welfare state. The solution there is to get rid of the welfare state (I'd choose that option) or limit access to social services by immigrants.

In a truely free society, this issues would never come up since everything is based on private property.

[doc_ock]

All I'm saying is if they have a choice between going after a drug dealer/murderer/etc. who is to be deported, or a construction worker.. the priority should be to get the drug dealer out of the country, even if they're harder to track down..
I understand what you are saying. I just cringe when others use rationalizing terms, such as "families trying to make a living", as if the activity of some illegal immigrants is innocent and doesn't have an adverse effect on Canada and her citizens. All illegal immigration hurts Canada!

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

I understand what you are saying. I just cringe when others use rationalizing terms, such as "families trying to make a living", as if the activity of some illegal immigrants is innocent and doesn't have an adverse effect on Canada and her citizens. All illegal immigration hurts Canada!

This is not necessarily true. The arguements I've heard is that they keep Canadian wages low for jobs average canadians don't want. (I don't know about these jobs but it is at least possible)

[doc_ock]

This is not necessarily true. The arguements I've heard is that they keep Canadian wages low for jobs average canadians don't want. (I don't know about these jobs but it is at least possible)
LMFAO. Have you actually read any of my posts? Sure, the Canadian taxpayer subsidizes the companies who illegally hire illegal immigrants so that these companies can keep wages low. Special interest groups always use the argument that illegal immigrants do jobs that Canadians won't do. The truth is that companies who hire illegal immigrants can't find Canadians to do the job at the wage that they want to pay. There is a big difference. It would cost our country a whole lot less if we just subsidized companies directly so that they could hire Canadians and keep expenses down at the same time. I happen to believe that if a business can't operate legally and survive, then it shouldn't. ;)

[d_jedi]

I understand what you are saying. I just cringe when others use rationalizing terms, such as "families trying to make a living", as if the activity of some illegal immigrants is innocent and doesn't have an adverse effect on Canada and her citizens. All illegal immigration hurts Canada!
I think you confuse intent with effect..
I don't believe most of these illegal immigrants intend to harm Canadian society.. they just want a better life. Why they don't go through the proper channels, I don't know. Why life in Portugal is so bad that these immigrants (well, most of the deportees are apparently Portugese.. so that's why I'm using them as an example) think coming to Canada will make their lives better, I don't know.

But the effect may very well be (I haven't researched the topic) that they undercut Canadian workers, either leading to lower wages or unemployment for Canadians in certain fields..

[st7860]

Do they use health care? Are their children attending school? ?

I don't know about Ontario but in Vancouver your children need a student visa to attend school if they can't otherwise prove residency.

[doc_ock]

I think you confuse intent with effect..
I don't believe most of these illegal immigrants intend to harm Canadian society.. they just want a better life. Why they don't go through the proper channels, I don't know. Why life in Portugal is so bad that these immigrants (well, most of the deportees are apparently Portugese.. so that's why I'm using them as an example) think coming to Canada will make their lives better, I don't know.

But the effect may very well be (I haven't researched the topic) that they undercut Canadian workers, either leading to lower wages or unemployment for Canadians in certain fields..
No, not at all. The intent of illegal immigrants is irrelevant. Illegal immigrants break the law for selfish reasons with total disregard for their impact on Canada and Canadians. A better question is, Why are you making excuses for the illegal immigrants' behaviour? Doesn't everyone want a better life? What if everyone chose to obey only the laws that suited them? Rationalizing the behaviour of illegal immigrants attempts to downplay the seriousness of the effects of illegal immigration on Canada. Rationalization also attempts to excuse and reward improper behaviour. The negative impact on Canada from illegal immigration goes far beyond wages or employment. I have already mentioned the burden that illegal immigration puts on Canada's social services and collective revenue in previous posts. What about the impact of illegal immigration on the fabric of Canadian society, our rules and our norms? What example does acceptance of some illegal activity, because those that conduct the illegal activity are only "trying to better their lives" :rolleyes:, set? Was it not you who posed the question about undermining legal immigration?If they are here illegally, then they should be deported. There are legal immigration channels that they can go through.. why did they choose to ignore this route and come here illegally? If we turn a blind eye to illegal immigrants, will this not undermine the legal immigration system?