Normal Islam or Backwards interpretation? (Muslim->Christian in Afghanistan)

[rb]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4823874.stm

Is this normal - is this what the Koran says and is it the 'norm" in other islamic countries?

[laptop-tech]

quote from the text...

"We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him," the judge told the BBC on Monday.

But if he refused to reconvert, then his mental state would be considered first before he was dealt with under Sharia law, the judge added.

[rb]

quote from the text...

"We will invite him again because the religion of Islam is one of tolerance. We will ask him if he has changed his mind. If so we will forgive him," the judge told the BBC on Monday.

But if he refused to reconvert, then his mental state would be considered first before he was dealt with under Sharia law, the judge added.

But if he refuses to convert and he's deemed mentally stable - he's a dead man isn't he?

[laptop-tech]

But if he refuses to convert and he's deemed mentally stable - he's a dead man isn't he?


I highlighted the word tolerance in sarcasm...its just funny that some people demand "freedom of religion" and even twist the legal system in Canada, while they stone to death those who choose not to adopt Islam.

[PrimoTurbo]

Freedom of religion is stupid, it means its okay to discriminate by following a certain part of the religion.

For example the treatment of gays, based on the Bible.

[asim99]

But if he refuses to convert and he's deemed mentally stable - he's a dead man isn't he?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

[laptop-tech]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam


quote from the link above :

"Legal opinion on apostasy by a Fatwa committee concerning the case of a man who converted to Christianity: "Since he left the Islam, he will be invited to express his regret. If he does not regret, he will be killed pertaining to rights and obligations of the Islamic law."

[mookieflookie]

Why do so many Christians pretend to go and help Afghans when they really have a hidden agenda? No wonder why nobody wants Christian charities in their countries. Most Christians are probably reasonable and helpful, but then you have these crazy ones with a sick imagination about converting the world.

[xKagex]

Why do so many Christians pretend to go and help Afghans when they really have a hidden agenda? No wonder why nobody wants Christian charities in their countries. Most Christians are probably reasonable and helpful, but then you have these crazy ones with a sick imagination about converting the world.

Obviously people who are Christians think they are doing people an invaluable favour by teaching them about Christianity. There's no hidden agenda; evangelism is part of the Christian faith.

[laptop-tech]

:!: :!:

[poedua]

From today's Globe.....in some places, it seems it's illegal to be a Christian ......better hide that Bible!!!!!

"The judge deciding whether an Afghan man should be executed for converting to Christianity does not understand what all the fuss is about.

"In this country, we have [a] perfect constitution. It is Islamic law and it is illegal to be a Christian and it should be punished," Judge Alhaj Ansarullah Mawawy Zada said in an interview yesterday. "In your country, two women can marry. I think that is very strange."

"It is a crime to convert to Christianity from Islam. He is teasing and insulting his family by converting," Judge Zada said. "The Attorney-General is emphasizing he should be hung."


...what can you say.???..religious freedom means different things to different people. One of the reasons I like Canada. :)

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060321.wxafghan21/BNStory/International/home

[hagbard]

I'd respond but you're on my "ignore list". Given your past posts, I'll just say I disagree entirely with everything you said and leave it at that. :lol:

[asim99]

I'd respond but you're on my "ignore list". Given your past posts, I'll just say I disagree entirely with everything you said and leave it at that. :lol:
haha

[go leafs]

even michelle malkin and other conservative bloggers are calling out Bush & Karzai about this
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004808.htm

here is a good quote (from a conservative organization I think)


The Bush administration assured us late last year that the new Iraqi constitution would not threaten religious liberty. This, despite the provisions saying no law could be passed that was "inconsistent with Islam." Our concern that such promises of religious freedom will be meaningless in light of Islamic law is once again justified by religious persecution in Afghanistan. The Afghan constitution, adopted after America liberated that country from the Taliban, has a provision similar to that of the new Iraqi constitution. Now, we receive a horrifying report of Abdul Rahman, 41, who is on trial for his life in Kabul, Afghanistan. Rahman's crime? He has admitted converting to Christianity. That there should even be such a trial is an outrage.

How can we congratulate ourselves for liberating Afghanistan from the rule of jihadists only to be ruled by Islamists who kill Christians? Such a "trial" is a flagrant violation of Article 18 of the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights--which the current Afghan government even incorporated into its constitution. Article 18 reads: "Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." President Bush should immediately send Vice President Cheney or Secretary Rice to Kabul to read Hamid Kharzai's government the riot act. Americans will not give their blood and treasure to prop up new Islamic fundamentalist regimes. Democracy is more than purple thumbs.

[asim99]

its interesting how karzai is avoiding this issue

[ronny1980]

I'd respond but you're on my "ignore list". Given your past posts, I'll just say I disagree entirely with everything you said and leave it at that. :lol:

:lol:

[FastFokker]

:lol:

[hagbard]

I see a lot of Islamic funamentalism as a reaction to the jerking around they've gotten at the hands of western powers. They know that's the last thing, for example, the United States would want them to do, so, they do it. Action--Reaction. Iran was moving (slowly) in the direction of liberalization till the US called them part of an axis of evil in 2001. Now, we get reaction. So, I think it has as much to do with anti-Americanism and anti-Israel as it does with religious conviction.

Although in the case of Afgahistan, things have gotten pretty hard core. Our being there isn't doing a bit of good, however and never will.

If we really cared, we'd offer them all a way out.

__________________

[FastFokker]

I'm so tired of the religion wars.. and I don't mean on RFD, I mean in everyday life and society around the world.

[d_jedi]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060323.wafghchrist0323/BNStory/International/home
Wow.

[blackhawk]

you wont hear anything from the 'death to america/christians/conservatives' gang

It was on the news that Harper got assurances from the afghan pm that he would not be executed by the state, I wouldn't lay any odds on his survival though from other sources in the country.

[Nemodigital]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060323.wafghchrist0323/BNStory/International/home
Wow.
Kinda funny how Afghans were crying intolorence during the entire cartoon fiasco and were burning flags.... imaging what type of reaction there would have been over there if a Christian european country hung a muslim convert just because he converted from Christianity :twisted:

[wali]

Only a an idiot will change religions and only a ****** would risk his life over religion. Religion sucks!

[masterhapposai]

Only a an idiot will change religions and only a ****** would risk his life over religion. Religion sucks!

that's your opinion, and you're lucky you're in canada to say that

in afghan this minute they'd have chopped some of your body parts off for fun.

I think the biggest idiots now reside in that corrupt government and sharia law. They are playing into Bush's hands like puppets.

The more they do things like this the more the public will turn against them. I can tell you I was pretty outraged myself at them when I heard what's happening to this convert. Afghan just lost 1 supporter in me, and probably millions others for this hypocrisy and global crime they are committing.

If they keep it up, this guy's going to hand them a can of whoop ass:

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/warner_brothers/v_for_vendetta/hugo_weaving/vendetta7.jpg

[hagbard]

Lot of good having the US and buddies there, nothing has changed, only gotten worse. Wish every country followed the basic myob rule.

[masterhapposai]

Lot of good having the US and buddies there, nothing has changed, only gotten worse. Wish every country followed the basic myob rule.

that's because his goals are obviously not to help anyone there

it's only to bait them into letting him attack more countries

syria+iran next

This christian ordeal is enough to pump up bush support by like 10% alone. Best thing the middle east ever done for the neo-cons.

gj guys!

[laptop-tech]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060323.wafghchrist0323/BNStory/International/home
Wow.


quote from this link :

“Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die,” said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.


lol..........

[Rehan]

http://www.canadianislamiccongress.com/mc/media_communique.php?id=746

Prosecution Of Afghan Man For Converting To Christianity Is Against Islamic Teaching, Says CIC
-- OCCUPATION FORCES WARNED NOT TO TURN A BLIND EYE TO ABUSE OF RELIGIOUS LAWS

The Canadian Islamic Congress today affirmed its support for an Afghani manwho is being tried for converting to Christianity and could face the deathsentence if convicted, despite a core teaching of the Qur'an that "there isno compulsion in religion." (Qur'an 2:256).

Abdul Rahman, 41, converted to Christianity 16 years ago while working inPakistan for a Christian refugee aid agency. He was arrested in Februaryafter reportedly being denounced by relatives during a custody battle forhis children.

"Afghanistan is not a free country," the CIC said. "Maintaining law andorder is the responsibility of the occupation forces, who must not turn ablind eye to this kind of injustice. To allow this man to be tried andpossibly executed for a non-criminal, non-blasphemous act, and then blameIslam and Muslims worldwide, is totally unacceptable."

The statement emphasized that at the time of the Prophet Muhammad,conversions or re-conversions were not rare. In some cases, it was evenencouraged, because if one felt uncomfortable as a Muslim, it usuallyindicated that their adoption of Islam might not have been motivated bycomplete conviction. The Qur'an states without qualification or exceptions,that "there is no compulsion in religion" and is the only holy book of anymainstream faith to say so in such explicit terms.

"This prosecution is a political issue, possibly a personal vengeance issueas well, arising out of a family dispute. It is not about religion," thestatement continued. "It says more about the lack of social development inAfghanistan today."

The CIC also expressed hope and concern that aid groups are aware of andsensitive to the vulnerability of Afghani people to conversion, both athome and in refugee settlements in Pakistan. Afghanistan is more than 99%Muslim.

[gei]

Geez that entire region of the world is a joke. You'd think Darwin would have dealt with them by now.

[wali]

I think this issue is more complex than it seems. Afghanistan is a very conservative and traditional country, also being an 'Afghan' and being Muslim is almost synonymous (although there is a large Afghan Hindu population). So, an Afghan who converts to a different religion is basically forgoing his/her Afghan-hood and in a closed and traditional society like Afghanistan that's tantamount to treason.

But than again, if we all understood each other, there won't be all these hatred and conflicts.

Geez that entire region of the world is a joke. You'd think Darwin would have dealt with them by now.

Which region is that? And mentioning Darwin in that context implies that you're a racist, but albeit an ignorant one...

[ephemera]

Its time to bring the troops home, because it seems like its been a complete waste of time.

[FastFokker]

Its time to bring the troops home, because it seems like its been a complete waste of time.Based on what you hear on a Canadian Bargain Hunting Community?

[Casanova]

We should bring our troops home as simple as that!

[unleashed]

Based on what you hear on a Canadian Bargain Hunting Community?

hahahah lol well said.

[asim99]

http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20060321.html
Free Afghan Christian Abdul Rahman without delay
"There is no compulsion in matters of faith"

TORONTO - The Muslim Canadian Congress has strongly condemned the Afghan government's decision to prosecute 41-year old Abdul Rahman for changing his religion from Islam to Christianity.

In a letter to the President Karzai of Afghanistan, the MCC has asked for the immediate release from jail of Abdul Rahman and a guarantee for his security.

In the letter, Niaz Salimi, President of the MCC said, "the prosecution of Abdul Rahman leads Canadians to question why our troops should risk their lives defending a regime that often seems no different than the Taliban it replaced."

The letter said, "Laws denying freedom of religion violate the basic tenets of universal human rights as enshrined in the 1948 UN Universal Declaration and also the Quran, which states explicitly that there is no compulsion in religion".

In a separate statement the MCC urged all Muslim Canadians to rally around Abdul Rahman and also demand freedom for the many writers and journalists, mostly Muslim, who are facing imprisonment and possible death in the Muslim world.

In Egypt and Yemen, writers are facing trial for reprinting offensive cartoons of the prophet Mohammed. The reprinting of the cartoons is being portrayed as an affront to Islam and an act of apostasy, punishable by death.

The MCC statement urges those advocating such action to re-evaluate their reasons for pursuing such a policy. "Islam should not be seen as a religion so fragile that it cannot withstand criticism or mockery."

Unless the governments of Muslim countries strike down their laws of apostasy and blasphemy, they will never be able to take away the fear and tyranny that has become part and parcel of life under their regimes.

[wali]

If you're a history buff like me and observe a nations behaviour based on its history - you will immediately come to know that Afghans are simply using the 'western coalition' to fight the Taliban until they get their act together. No foreign force has remained in Afghanistan for long. Afghanistan is perhaps the most xenophobic country on earth and there you're either an Afghan/Muslim or you're not!

Those who are interested can read about Anglo-Afghan wars and The Great Game.

[gei]

I really dont understand these people who want us and America to completely desert Afghanistan... the country would fall apart almost instantly without us... do you really want us to leave them in chaos?

Don't you people think they are better off without the Taliban ruling the country? Don't you realize change takes some sacrifice.

Like I have said many times, I'm sure that this occupation will turn out for the best. 10 years later we will all look back and realize what a great job we did.

Reminds me of the American occupation of Japan after WW2. Look at the great job the Americans did there. I'm sure the Japanese people are happy at the way things turned out. Then again, the Japanese may be a bit more civilized...

[Rembrandt100]

One must remember that most of the population of those backward countries are nothing more than tribes of illiterate savages. The local dude with the biggest gang and most weapons is usually in charge of his area.

For those of you that have access to the book called the koran should look up these passages...........10:99..........42:48..........2 :256.......

Dave

Question: If all there old dudes and imams think that being a suicide bomber is such a cool thing to be, how did they get to be as old as they are?

Just a though: I wonder how many virgins Allah still has to give away?

[Txiasaeia]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/afghan.christian.ap/index.html

Religious leaders urge courts to ignore West, hang Christian

Friday, March 24, 2006; Posted: 12:24 a.m. EST (05:24 GMT)

KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) -- Senior Muslim clerics are demanding that an Afghan man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity be executed, warning that if the government caves in to Western pressure and frees him, they will incite people to "pull him into pieces."

In an unusual move, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice telephoned President Hamid Karzai on Thursday seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case of Abdul Rahman. The 41-year-old former medical aid worker faces the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for becoming a Christian.

His trial has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.

"Rejecting Islam is insulting God. We will not allow God to be humiliated. This man must die," said cleric Abdul Raoulf, who is considered a moderate and was jailed three times for opposing the Taliban before the hard-line regime was ousted in 2001.

The trial, which began last week, has caused an international outcry. U.S. President George W. Bush has said he is "deeply troubled" by the case and expects Afghanistan to "honor the universal principle of freedom."

Rice spokesman Sean McCormack said she told Karzai it is important for the Afghan people to know that freedom of religion is observed in their country.

Her direct appeal to a foreign leader in a judicial proceeding in their own country was unusual. But in deference to the country's sovereignty, Rice evidently did not demand specifically that the trial be halted and the defendant released.

"This is clearly an Afghan decision," McCormack said.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters she had received assurances from Karzai in a telephone call that Rahman would not be sentenced to death.

Diplomats have said the Afghan government is searching for a way to drop the case. On Wednesday, authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.

But three Sunni preachers and a Shiite one interviewed by The Associated Press in four of Kabul's most popular mosques said they do not believe Rahman is insane.

"He is not crazy. He went in front of the media and confessed to being a Christian," said Hamidullah, chief cleric at Haji Yacob Mosque. "The government is scared of the international community. But the people will kill him if he is freed."

Raoulf, who is a member of the country's main Islamic organization, the Afghan Ulama Council, concurred. "The government is playing games. The people will not be fooled."

"Cut off his head!" he exclaimed, sitting in a courtyard outside Herati Mosque. "We will call on the people to pull him into pieces so there's nothing left."

He said the only way for Rahman to survive would be for him to go into exile.

But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."

The clerics said they were angry with the United States and other countries for pushing for Rahman's freedom.

"We are a small country and we welcome the help the outside world is giving us. But please don't interfere in this issue," Nasri said. "We are Muslims and these are our beliefs. This is much more important to us than all the aid the world has given us."

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Sharia law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death.

Hamidullah warned that the government would lose the support of the people if it frees Rahman, and "there will be an uprising" like the one against Soviet occupying forces in the 1980s.

Human rights group Amnesty International said if Rahman has been detained solely for his religious beliefs, he would be a "prisoner of conscience" and that the charges should be dropped.

Rahman is believed to have lived in Germany for nine years after converting to Christianity while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in Pakistan. He returned to Kabul in 2002.

It was not immediately clear when Rahman's trial would resume. Authorities have barred attempts by the AP to see him and he is not believed to have a lawyer.

I seriously doubt anybody here is as fanatical as those described in this article, but tell me: why, in the 21st century, would a religion kill those who left the faith? I can think of several negative reasons, but what positive effect could this possibly have on other believers? Is this a regional issue, or is this a common belief in Islam?

[Jessica April]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/afghan.christian.ap/index.html



I seriously doubt anybody here is as fanatical as those described in this article, but tell me: why, in the 21st century, would a religion kill those who left the faith? I can think of several negative reasons, but what positive effect could this possibly have on other believers? Is this a regional issue, or is this a common belief in Islam?


Wow these people must be pretty messed up and immature in their ways of thought.

To think, execute another person because of his/her personal choices in what they want to believe in and how they want to live.

Only someone very insecure would worry what others believe in. Geesh!!!!!!! SO WHAT if John Travolta is into Scientology!!!!!!!
Do we have to feel the need to behead him because the rest of us are Wiccan?!

[hagbard]

The best thing western societies can do for places like Afghanistan is to let them find their own way without coercion and by our setting an example. That, and open trade. Our being there has done nothing positive, but impose a US puppet regime over a very tiny part of the country and create more resentment. Should have never invaded that country.

[asim99]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/23/afghan.christian.ap/index.html

I seriously doubt anybody here is as fanatical as those described in this article, but tell me: why, in the 21st century, would a religion kill those who left the faith? I can think of several negative reasons, but what positive effect could this possibly have on other believers? Is this a regional issue, or is this a common belief in Islam?
not sure about the "universality" of that belief among all muslims, however, i do know that to be true for majority of the muslims in that region

the region is overwhelmingly muslim (something like 97% or more muslim), hence it acts as a deterrant for the public when it comes to ponder a faith-change

sad, but true

the wiki article i quoted earlier about apostates gives some additional information on differing opinions on this death punishment

[rb]

"But Said Mirhossain Nasri, the top cleric at Hossainia Mosque, one of the largest Shiite places of worship in Kabul, said Rahman must not be allowed to leave the country.

"If he is allowed to live in the West, then others will claim to be Christian so they can, too," he said. "We must set an example. ... He must be hanged."


wow so if the west offers visas to come live here - there is a fear that some muslims will give up their faith and move

theres also the remark that he must be mentally unstable if he wants to be Christian

this is so similar to the Soviet Union and communists - where if you said to diagree with the system you were put in mental asylums and visas to the West were restricted


the Communists were portrayed as the bad boys for so long - now its the Islamists ...
so many more similarities !

[TheRide]

I know alot about Islam and I must say, I've never heard of killing people because they converted out of Islam. Also, I consider anything on CNN a bunch of BS. So damn biased...

Finally, that COULD just be a case of extreme or radical Islam where people take it out of hand and give regular Muslims a bad reputation. Just like how there are extremists in every religion (like that obese chick in trading spouses).

[poedua]

The best thing western societies can do for places like Afghanistan is to let them find their own way without coercion and by our setting an example. That, and open trade. Our being there has done nothing positive, but impose a US puppet regime over a very tiny part of the country and create more resentment. Should have never invaded that country.

Seems, it's preferable in your view to have a civil war to in Afghanistan serve as the means for the people to " find their own way ".

Yet, you support the brutal Saddam's regime's sucess in preventing a civil war to in Iraq to serve as the means for the people to " find their own way ".

Seems hypocritical IMO.

[rb]

Seems, it's preferable in your view to have a civil war to in Afghanistan serve as the means for the people to " find their own way ".

Yet, you support the brutal Saddam's regime's sucess in preventing a civil war to in Iraq to serve as the means for the people to " find their own way ".

Seems hypocritical IMO.


Seems so many people were blaming the civil war and other problems in Afghanistan on the fact that the US and others LEFT them to their own devices after the Soviets withdrew - so the US is dammed if it does and dammed it it doesn't

[poedua]

I know alot about Islam and I must say, I've never heard of killing people because they converted out of Islam. Also, I consider anything on CNN a bunch of BS. So damn biased...

Finally, that COULD just be a case of extreme or radical Islam where people take it out of hand and give regular Muslims a bad reputation. Just like how there are extremists in every religion (like that obese chick in trading spouses).

I think it goes beyond Islam itself.

I think the thing to focus on is why this guy got arrested in the first place...because he was drawn to another faith out of free will. It would seem to me that he is simply exercising his basic human right...the freedom of religion. To me. That is the issue ...freedom of religion. I think Amnesty summed it up very well.....it's a human rights issue first and foremost......

"No Individual should ever be persecuted - let alone executed - for his or her religious beliefs. The freedom to practice one's own faith without fear of retribution is one of humanity's most sacred rights. If Rahman has been imprisoned solely because he converted to Christianity, he must be immediately and unconditionally released. Afghanistan has come a long way in terms of respecting and codifying human rights principles, but it must commit itself anew to judicial reform and the upholding of international standards."
...I agree 110%. Freedom of religion is a sacred right.

http://blogs.amnestyusa.org/death-penalty

[poedua]

Seems so many people were blaming the civil war and other problems in Afghanistan on the fact that the US and others LEFT them to their own devices after the Soviets withdrew - so the US is dammed if it does and dammed it it doesn't

The civil war has endured since the late 70's -and in various forms. Canada's intial role was that of peacekeeping role to adress human rights issues as a consequence of that ongoing civil war. It was 9/11 and the US condemnation of the Taliban as al Queda supporters ( thus terorism ) that changed everything.

But you're right, the US gets in involved in Afghanistan - a consequence of which is preventing the country from following it's inevitable course to determine it's own destiny - a civil war- it is condemed.

On the other hand, the US gets in involved in Iraq - a consequence of which is allowing ( something Saddam wouldn't allow to occur ) the country from following it's inevitable course to determine it's own destiny - a civil war- it is also condemed.

You're bang on....the US is damned either way.

[xKagex]

On the upside, the Opium fields are back at peak production and 'someone' is probably making a lot of money again :)

[Div]

Didn't this guy convert to Christianity about 15 years ago? If so, why the sudden kufuffle?

[Crotchety Old Man]

Didn't this guy convert to Christianity about 15 years ago? If so, why the sudden kufuffle?
15 years is a blink of the eye to a jealous God.

[Rembrandt100]

15 years is a blink of the eye to a jealous God.


And what a jealous god he must be to demand human scarifice.

dave

[Crotchety Old Man]

And what a jealous god he must be to demand human scarifice.

dave
Exactly. All Gods are jealous.

[pgcanred]

I know alot about Islam and I must say, I've never heard of killing people because they converted out of Islam. Also, I consider anything on CNN a bunch of BS. So damn biased...

Finally, that COULD just be a case of extreme or radical Islam where people take it out of hand and give regular Muslims a bad reputation. Just like how there are extremists in every religion (like that obese chick in trading spouses).

You know alot about Islam but have never heard of killing people because they converted out of Islam? Ahem. It may not go on in the West but in Muslim countries it does happen. Try this link (http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/apostacy.html).

[fakishan]

This is clearly a case of extremism, just like the millions of christians down in the states who would like to kill/imprison all foreigners in the USA. fortunately, the US population hasn't surrendered their freedom to religion yet, but a lot of people there are pushing for a religious regime.

Just check the population division by religion for each muslim country, and you'll see that all of them have from hundreds, to dozen thousands of christians living amonst them and have lived there for many generations.

add to the fact that the new US-supported afghan regime just annouced that they may release the man, it seems to me it's just more anti-muslim propaganda "created" to gain support for the invasion of more muslim nations, namely that of Iran.

I'v had the opportunity to step on Iranian soil for 4 hours during a flight reroute, their youth isn't any different from the israeli or canadian; fashion (skimpy outfits for the gals, no veils), night scene (clubs, trance, extasy), and concerns (environment, corruption in goverement).

ignorance is evil.

[fakishan]

http://www.yahoodi.com

Just as left leaning conspiracy theorists get their news anf facts from dubious websites, center to right leaning people get theirs from other biased websites.

i'm not suprised that there's enough bull going around to confuse both sides, because while we are aguing, wars are being fought without any terms.

[hugh_da_man]

This is clearly a case of extremism, just like the millions of christians down in the states who would like to kill/imprison all foreigners in the USA. fortunately, the US population hasn't surrendered their freedom to religion yet, but a lot of people there are pushing for a religious regime.

Just check the population division by religion for each muslim country, and you'll see that all of them have from hundreds, to dozen thousands of christians living amonst them and have lived there for many generations.

add to the fact that the new US-supported afghan regime just annouced that they may release the man, it seems to me it's just more anti-muslim propaganda "created" to gain support for the invasion of more muslim nations, namely that of Iran.

I'v had the opportunity to step on Iranian soil for 4 hours during a flight reroute, their youth isn't any different from the israeli or canadian; fashion (skimpy outfits for the gals, no veils), night scene (clubs, trance, extasy), and concerns (environment, corruption in goverement).

ignorance is evil.

It seems it's always anti-muslim propaganda.

Damn those Americans and their fake stories about a Christian being killed for leaving Islam. How dare CNN create such a horrendously fake story just to try to push their anti-muslim agenda!

It'd be nice to believe that it was all propaganda but this guy would probably be dead already if the west hadn't expressed it's disgust. Riot for cartoons but nothing to save a life?

[Happy13178]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060323.wafghchrist0323/BNStory/International/home
Wow.

"Another cleric, Ayatullah Asife Muhseni, told a gathering of preachers and intellectuals at a Kabul hotel that the Afghan president had no right to overturn the punishment of an apostate.

He also demanded that clerics be able to question Mr. Rahman in jail to discover why he had converted to Christianity. He suggested it could have been the result of a conspiracy by Western nations or Jews."


Hope he's got his tinfoil hat on nice and tight. Every time I see a story like this it makes me wonder if it will ever be possible for many nations in the Middle East to ever peacefully coexist with anyone at all. They want their land...if they don't get it, war...They want to kill those who convert to another religion. It looks like Afghanistan has hit the point of the Spanish Inquisition...only about 500 years behind.

[Crotchety Old Man]

It seems it's always anti-muslim propaganda.

Damn those Americans and their fake stories about a Christian being killed for leaving Islam. How dare CNN create such a horrendously fake story just to try to push their anti-muslim agenda!
Finally more people are starting to see through the veil.

[Happy13178]

It seems it's always anti-muslim propaganda.

Damn those Americans and their fake stories about a Christian being killed for leaving Islam. How dare CNN create such a horrendously fake story just to try to push their anti-muslim agenda!

It'd be nice to believe that it was all propaganda but this guy would probably be dead already if the west hadn't expressed it's disgust. Riot for cartoons but nothing to save a life?

I'd consider this stuff propaganda and generally crap if I didn't see so many Muslims agreeing with the views expressed.

[poedua]

It seems it's always anti-muslim propaganda.

Damn those Americans and their fake stories about a Christian being killed for leaving Islam. How dare CNN create such a horrendously fake story just to try to push their anti-muslim agenda!



On the propaganda you allege.

Curious, I assume most propaganda involves attempts to deliberately report false or misleading information. In this case , as you claim, the lies and misinformation By CNN is to support a cause of anti- muslim rehtoric.

Which "alleged " facts reported by CNN are lies ...i.e clearly false ? And, thus would qualify as propaganda ?

[Div]

I think hugh was being sarcastic...

[poedua]

This is clearly a case of extremism, just like the millions of christians down in the states who would like to kill/imprison all foreigners in the USA.

Are you saying fundamentalist Christians want to " kill " foreigners ? Which religious leader supports this view - i.e to kill foreigners - in the US - just curious.


fortunately, the US population hasn't surrendered their freedom to religion yet, but a lot of people there are pushing for a religious regime..

Interesting. Which groups ?

Just check the population division by religion for each muslim country, and you'll see that all of them have from hundreds, to dozen thousands of christians living amonst them and have lived there for many generations.

Maybe in other countries.

But, I thought Afghans are all almost 100% Muslim (over 80% or so being Sunni and some remaining Shia). How many Christians do you think make up part of the Afghan population ?


I'v had the opportunity to step on Iranian soil for 4 hours during a flight reroute, their youth isn't any different from the israeli or canadian; fashion (skimpy outfits for the gals, no veils), night scene (clubs, trance, extasy), and concerns (environment, corruption in goverement).

ignorance is evil.

Correct. It's the governments / administration that deserves the attention...not the population. Its like assuming of all the US population is a stereotype of evil ...when most of those allegations should be directed at Bush - and his adminsitration.

[poedua]

I think hugh was being sarcastic...

Sorry...for minute there i thought he actually thought the West was trying to spew anti Muslim propaganda via the likes of CNN. :)

I suppose if he is being sarcastic, his progaganda allegations are actually the opposite of his genuine views of the reporting ( they're accurate ) of this incident. My mistake.

[pgcanred]

Just as left leaning conspiracy theorists get their news anf facts from dubious websites, center to right leaning people get theirs from other biased websites.

i'm not suprised that there's enough bull going around to confuse both sides, because while we are aguing, wars are being fought without any terms.

Biased or not are you disputing what they report? Are Muslims executed for apostasy? Does the Hadith teach that they should be executed or are worthy of execution? As mentioned in this opinion piece (http://news.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2006/03/25/do2502.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2006/03/25/ixopinion.html) is it true that all four schools of law in Sunni Islam agree that the penalty for apostacy must be death?

I don't know who runs yahoodi.com. I found them via www.apostatesofislam.com (http://www.apostatesofislam.com/), and thought it would be a useful summary of the subject. Lets deal in facts rather than trash the source. Or to put it another way trash the source by refuting what they report rather than lamely accusing them of being biased. We are all biased.

[fakishan]

I'd consider this stuff propaganda and generally crap if I didn't see so many Muslims agreeing with the views expressed.

where? whom? you actually spoke to muslims here in canada? oh no, wait, you went to talk to extremists in Iraq and Afghanistan :rolleyes:

[fakishan]

Ignorance is evil, but only second to religion.

The Torah (JEWISH BIBLE) states:

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

I haven't seen Jews kill anyone for leaving judaism, neither have I seen that happen with muslims, BUT I KNOW that it does happen in remote villages where the rule of law doesn't extend to or when a monster of a leader will abuse religion to gain power (politics).

I also find it regrettable that you people chose to ignore my suggestion of looking up how many citizens of other religions each muslim nation has.

I can only guess that you don't want the truth. You only want to hate, but you do it in such a polite and educated way that most people wouldn't think that that's why you're really doing.

PS: jews strongly frown upon someone who moves away from judaism or a girl marrying a non-jewish man. there was a recent article about a jewish religious figure asking a celebrity woman not to marry a non-jewish man (football player?).

[pgcanred]

It would be nice to get straight answers to straight questions.

Ignorance is evil, but only second to religion.

The Torah (JEWISH BIBLE) states:


How is this relevant? Did I compare Islam to Judaism? Are any Jewish teachers using this passage to say that apostate Jews must be executed?

Now lets take the passage you quote. This passage is aimed at the religions of the land of Canaan that the Israelites were about to inhabit. Canaanite religion involved sacrifice of children and as such could not be tolerated. So any Jew who got involved in these abominations was to be stoned to death. The translation you quote is probably unfair to use the word earth implying the whole planet.

So how is this relevant and comparable to the topic?

I haven't seen Jews kill anyone for leaving judaism, neither have I seen that happen with muslims, BUT I KNOW that it does happen in remote villages where the rule of law doesn't extend to or when a monster of a leader will abuse religion to gain power (politics).

The case in question (although sentence has not been passed) is not in a remote village and is in front of a court of law. This coupled with the teachers of Islam who confirm that the sentence for apostacy should be death suggests your comments are inaccurate.

I also find it regrettable that you people chose to ignore my suggestion of looking up how many citizens of other religions each muslim nation has.

I can only guess that you don't want the truth. You only want to hate, but you do it in such a polite and educated way that most people wouldn't think that that's why you're really doing.

Now you betray your prejudice. I don't want to hate anyone at all. Of what relevance is the fact that there are citizens of other religions in muslim countries? Islam has always allowed for other religions in Dhimmi status as long as they pay the jizya.

PS: jews strongly frown upon someone who moves away from judaism or a girl marrying a non-jewish man. there was a recent article about a jewish religious figure asking a celebrity woman not to marry a non-jewish man (football player?).
How is this relevant? Is frowning upon someone equivalent to execution? Or are you just clutching at straws?

[fakishan]

How is this relevant? Did I compare Islam to Judaism?
I think I was clear enough for any reasonably intelligent person to understand . I don't want to have to spell things out as if you were a child. IT wasn't a comparison. It was a defence to the question on everyone's mind; what kind of religion would have such rules? They nearly ALL do, and those who don't (hinduism) still have killed using that as reason.

The case in question (although sentence has not been passed) is not in a remote village and is in front of a court of law.
What kind of court of law does afghanistan have? i'll tell you, tribal leaders get inside a newly US built building and call it a court. to call it a court is insulting.

Of what relevance is the fact that there are citizens of other religions in muslim countries? Islam has always allowed for other religions in Dhimmi status as long as they pay the jizya.
The OP article only suggested one thing, that Muslims don't tolerate other religions. That is false.


How is this relevant? Is frowning upon someone equivalent to execution?
i can understand that in a defensive haste, you took that as a comparison or an attack on jewish culture, but it wasn't. providing an example of another religion not "accepting" conversion REWMINDS us of how intolerant religious people are in general. by the way, it's not just a frown, it's disownment in most cases. I used Judaism as an example, because I have to keep shifting between religions, can't keep picking on the christians. next time I will use another popular religion/culture.

[poromol]

i read up on the paying thing, muslims have to pay a different type of thing zakah or something, and they (other religions) didn't have to

[pgcanred]

I think I was clear enough for any reasonably intelligent person to understand . I don't want to have to spell things out as if you were a child. IT wasn't a comparison. It was a defence to the question on everyone's mind; what kind of religion would have such rules? They nearly ALL do, and those who don't (hinduism) still have killed using that as reason.
But that is not a question I asked you. Also your quote from Deuteronomy did not do that as I showed.
The OP article only suggested one thing, that Muslims don't tolerate other religions. That is false.
Officially Islam kind of tolerates monotheistic religions but not polytheistic. But it is "kind of" with Dhimmi status and jizya tax. Friends of mine have been tortured by so called tolerant Islamic states, and two friends of mine were beheaded in Indonesia. I don't really call that tolerance.

[poedua]

It would be nice to get straight answers to straight questions.



How is this relevant? Did I compare Islam to Judaism? Are any Jewish teachers using this passage to say that apostate Jews must be executed?

Now lets take the passage you quote. This passage is aimed at the religions of the land of Canaan that the Israelites were about to inhabit. Canaanite religion involved sacrifice of children and as such could not be tolerated. So any Jew who got involved in these abominations was to be stoned to death. The translation you quote is probably unfair to use the word earth implying the whole planet.

So how is this relevant and comparable to the topic?



The case in question (although sentence has not been passed) is not in a remote village and is in front of a court of law. This coupled with the teachers of Islam who confirm that the sentence for apostacy should be death suggests your comments are inaccurate.



Now you betray your prejudice. I don't want to hate anyone at all. Of what relevance is the fact that there are citizens of other religions in muslim countries? Islam has always allowed for other religions in Dhimmi status as long as they pay the jizya.


How is this relevant? Is frowning upon someone equivalent to execution? Or are you just clutching at straws?

Well said.

[pgcanred]

Well said.
Thanks, poedua.

[poedua]

Thanks, poedua.

No problem. I share your frustration, and was in agreement with you after reading your statement ......

" It would be nice to get straight answers to straight questions "

...seems these debates sometimes veer off on tangents characterized by rehtoric or irrelevant examples. I think this often occurs in a vane attempt by some to try and deflect attention way from either previously weak replies or from an inability to stay on topic and effectively debate the issues. Dodging and stonewalling in a reply to questions simply brings what otherwise might be an informative debate , to grinding halt IMO. Next thing you end up with is personal attacks replacing "good faith " debate.

Good luck in reining in the debate ! :)

[lip1978]

Just saw on CNN that the case was dismissed. "Not enough evidence"

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/26/afghan.convert/index.html

[Happy13178]

where? whom? you actually spoke to muslims here in canada? oh no, wait, you went to talk to extremists in Iraq and Afghanistan :rolleyes:

Yes, smartass, with some that I work with, and a couple others who are friends of mine. They don't agree with everything, but more than enough to be disturbing.

[Benny]

What happened to Islam being a religion of "peace"???

I'm from Syria, and many of you might have the same view like the american guard at the boarder said to me and my sister when we gave him our canadian citizenships and told him we were born in syria "we're not fond of where you're from". Meanwhile, my brother who was born in Greece with the same last name was not asked anything....

Why don't we make it fair... why don't we excute anyone who changes there religion...That would be ridiculous....This is a personal deision a person makes...

Did you guys hear about that American Christian who got converted to Islam?

Did you hear about that Imam and Sheik who conveted to Christianity?

Thats all I have to say (for now)

MY 0.02 (don't flame if you don't like - it's my opinion)

[Benny]

He's going to go to Heaven anyways so it doesn't matter if you excute him.

Keep the faith

[laptop-tech]

Just saw on CNN that the case was dismissed. "Not enough evidence"

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/03/26/afghan.convert/index.html

I wouldn't be surprised if he is released and suffers some "weird accident" shortly after.

[Benny]

that's very predictable

The government should be responsible if that were to happen. The US should protect him too as well as any country that would not be classified as anti-christian.

He should apply for refugee status and come to a country that accepts his faith.