BMW is going to launch a dual-fuel 7-Series

[Div]

BMW's senior vice president of science and traffic policy, Christoph Huss, has been quoted as saying that a special edition hydrogen powered 7-Series could be available in limited numbers before year end.

The key to BMW's plans is a new bi-fuel V-12 engine that can use both gasoline and liquid hydrogen. In earlier tests, this powerplant was shown to produce in excess of 285hp and a maximum speed of 186mph. The initial production car is expected to have 230hp from this engine.
BMW's hydrogen powered 7-Series (http://www.hydrogenuse.info/node/78)

[pandaharo]

I find 186mph from 285hp on a heavy 7-series hard to believe, but of course I'm no expert, maybe hydrogen cars goes faster.

[r1lee]

I find 186mph from 285hp on a heavy 7-series hard to believe, but of course I'm no expert, maybe hydrogen cars goes faster.

doesn't it depend on aerodynamics, Coefficient of Drag and gearing ratio?

[Focus]

doesn't it depend on aerodynamics, Coefficient of Drag and gearing ratio?

plus distances.

[bensa138]

Regardless of how fast these cars can go... we're not allowed to even go 1/3 of those speeds on Canadian Highways. ;)

[bluetroll]

where would you find a hydrogen gas station?

[Spray]

Weight doesnt affect top speed, just acceleration. Personally I've gone higher than that top speed (on a track I assure you) in my own 300hp vehicle

[Oni-kun]

where would you find a hydrogen gas station?

thats why its duel fueled so if you can't find a hydrogen gas station you're not screwed. I'm willing to bet the first hydrogen fuel stations are going to be perhaps at BMW dealerships cuz who would buy the car if you can't use its coolest feature.

[vladislav]

We need more of these 'alternative' cars, oil is just too tiring.

[FastFokker]

Well that's been a critical problem with hydrogen (among other issues).. there is no infrastructure for fueling the vehicles.

So what shall come first, the chicken or the egg? Some places have gone with the egg, some have gone with the chicken.
I find 186mph from 285hp on a heavy 7-series hard to believe, but of course I'm no expert, maybe hydrogen cars goes faster.Horsepower is not the best measurement of a vehicles top speed.

Also, horsepower is not related to a particular fuel source, it's just a unit of power measurement.

[pandaharo]

As a side note, I work with liquid nitrogen (-80) on a regular basis and I can say at -253 for liquid hydrogen, this is not something you want people to be able to pull up to the pump and get.

[divx]

hydrogen is very reactive, or rather, EXPLOSIVE, you won't be missing out on any accident because it would be a nuke going off if that thing ever leaks.

[Evil Techie]

i remember doing a presentation on this car in my geography class 3 years ago, that time BMW had a Mini Cooper that burns hydrogen too

anyways
in germany esp munich, they have hydrogen fueling stations
on the Sea-to-Sky hwy in BC, they plan to build a few hydrogen fueling stations by 2010 too
also, shell was testing automated hydrogen fueling stations
the setup would automatically find the gas door and such
for better safety
hydrogen combustion is pretty efficient and non polluting
this is a great step forward

but id rather get the Lexus GS450H
0-to-60-mph performance of 5.2 seconds—nipping at a Porsche Cayman S—and an expected EPA fuel-economy average of 28 mpg...realistic testing shows that GS450h owners who drive 15,000 miles a year should save 200 gallons of gas over comparable luxury cars in the class
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=19&article_id=10763&page_number=2

thats about 757 litres of premium gas
so at $1 per litre of 91 octane gas, that comes out to $757 per year of savings

oh yeah, the speed governors in the cars wouldnt allow it to go over 130ish mph in north america
that unrestricted speed is only good in germany where hydrogen fueling stations would be more widely available

[Evil Techie]

hydrogen is very reactive, or rather, EXPLOSIVE, you won't be missing out on any accident because it would be a nuke going off if that thing ever leaks.

so is gasoline

but hydrogen is kept cold, thats why they need the double layer tank made of some sort of carbon composite material or something tough

[twboy1999]

Weight doesnt affect top speed, just acceleration. Personally I've gone higher than that top speed (on a track I assure you) in my own 300hp vehicle

what kind of 300hp car do u have to hit 300km?

[pandaharo]

The reason why I brought up the speed issue is I remember the Modena has a top speed of 186mphish, and it's a Modena. :)

[twboy1999]

a 7 series with 285hp will not hit 300km for sure

[FastFokker]

a 7 series with 285hp will not hit 300km for sureWho cares, as already stated, you shouldn't be doing 300km on a public road in Canada, anyway.
--
I've seen some inventors who have developed a method of storing hydrogen in solid state, thereby eliminating the risk in collision. But it's funny that people are so against hydrogen because it's combustible, but they have no concerns with a big tank full of gasoline. I guess it's about experience.

Also, the tanks they use currently to hold the hydrogen are very complex and under stringent safety requirements. I've seen some of the testing they do on television and the tanks are extremely durable!

Anyway, hydrogen is great, but I love how it takes so much dirty energy to produce clean energy. :lol: Iceland, thanks to their unlimited thermal energy underground, have pretty much been pioneering the technology.. I'm confident it will work out for them, but I don't know how viable it is for the rest of the world, at least not in the foreseeable future.

Doesn't Vancouver have busses running on Hydrogen, as well as some city trucks?

[Div]

I've seen some inventors who have developed a method of storing hydrogen in solid state, thereby eliminating the risk in collision. But it's funny that people are so against hydrogen because it's combustible, but they have no concerns with a big tank full of gasoline. I guess it's about experience.
You are right about research into "hydrogen tablets" (http://www.hydrogenuse.info/node/54). An efficient and usable, solid form of hydrogen, would be revolutionary.

[toujours]

I've seen some inventors who have developed a method of storing hydrogen in solid state, thereby eliminating the risk in collision. But it's funny that people are so against hydrogen because it's combustible, but they have no concerns with a big tank full of gasoline. I guess it's about experience.

Also, the tanks they use currently to hold the hydrogen are very complex and under stringent safety requirements. I've seen some of the testing they do on television and the tanks are extremely durable!


The problem with hydrogen tanks is that :

- The molecules are VERY small and there are porosity problems with hydrogen storage systems (think about welds and joints for connectors, etc).
- It is stored as a gas under high pressure. Unlike gasoline, which is stored at atmospheric pressure. This increases the risk of explosion dramatically.

And how much will hydrogen fuel cost ? There's no point making cars than run on H2 if the fuel costs twice that of gasoline.

[GangStarr]

where would you find a hydrogen gas station?
Arnold Schwartzaneger promised in like 10 years or something there would be a highway running through california loaded with suffiecent hydrogen filling stations.

theres a few of them around cali. Honda is testing out their hydrogen engines.

[pandaharo]

Liquid hydrogen as a mean of storing hydrogen in a car is actually pretty safe, apart from the extreme cold and some imaginable problems with joints and transfer tubes which will be hard to overcome. If a tank was to rupture, it wont explode like if the hydrogen was under high pressure, it will just freeze everything in it's path and evaporate rapidly into the air assuming there isn't a ignition source.

Hydrogen is not cheap to make, the process requires electricity, you can't just "make" energy out of nothing, so it wouldn't be too far off to think of the liquid hydrogen as a form of battery to store power. I can't imagine with today's technology that liquid hydrogen can be produced cheaper than gasoline. And since hydrogen is so light, as soon as it's made no matter how well it is insulated, you will lose a lot of the hydrogen by the time it is used.

[shabby]

Has bmw tried crash tests with a hydrogen engine? I believe they blow up upon a crash.

[Div]

Not as per the post above yours.

[Sajjad]

Has bmw tried crash tests with a hydrogen engine? I believe they blow up upon a crash.


Agreed, it's like having a HYDROGEN BOMB on wheels.

[gordholio]

BMW's hydrogen powered 7-Series (http://www.hydrogenuse.info/node/78)
Why do we need to go 186 mph? The speed limit here is only about 60 mph (100 kph).

[Evil Techie]

Agreed, it's like having a HYDROGEN BOMB on wheels.


if you are ignorant on this matter, then u shouldnt post comments like that detering poor public from knowing the truth

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/03/16/hydrogen.cars/

BMW conducted numerous crash tests to see what would happen if the hydrogen tank was punctured or damaged. Their engineers report the liquid hydrogen dissipated harmlessly into the air.

also crash test video is on that site too
along with automated fueling


http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/stragegy.htm
Crash tests with hydrogen cars

Complete cars, not only fuel tanks, must prove their high standard of safety. This is why BMW hydrogen cars are already being examined in the usual crash tests such as the Euro NCAP head-on offset collision at an impact speed of 64 km/h, the standard rear-end collision with 100 and 40 per cent overlap, as well as a side-on collision at the car's most vulnerable point on the filler pipe leading to the fuel tank. And the BMW hydrogen car already meets all of these requirements in full. Indeed, in the words of the TÜV South Germany Technical Inspection Authority, "the hydrogen car is at least as safe as a conventional gasoline-powered car".

if it wasnt safe, they wouldnt sell it in today's safety standards

[GangStarr]

if you are ignorant on this matter, then u shouldnt post comments like that detering poor public from knowing the truth

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/03/16/hydrogen.cars/



also crash test video is on that site too
along with automated fueling


http://www.bmwworld.com/hydrogen/stragegy.htm


if it wasnt safe, they wouldnt sell it in today's safety standards

I dont think BMW is going to rush to release a pinto ;)

[FastFokker]

You guys are idiots saying it's going to blow up or be like the Hindenberg.. it's all in your head.

Yes there is risk to it hydrogen, it's a combustible fuel, just like gasoline!

I've seen testing on hydrogen tanks, they drop them, shoot them, and even blow them up... they have come a long way in safety. If the tank is ruptured, it will just vent the fuel out rapidly.

But in any case, as I've already brought up, they HAVE developed methods of storing the hydrogen in solid state, I think they are just refining the system for cost efficiency and storage efficiency. When you get into the consumer automotive industry, it's got to be cheap.

I think the near future (10yrs) we will have fantastic hydrogen vehicles.. the real problem I forsee, which also has been discussed is the method of hydrogen production and the cost. What good is "clean" fuel, if it takes a polluting system to produce it or if the cost is too high, that will really hurt.. but then again petroleum is only getting more scarce.

[Evil Techie]

You guys are idiots saying it's going to blow up or be like the Hindenberg.. it's all in your head.

Yes there is risk to it hydrogen, it's a combustible fuel, just like gasoline!

I've seen testing on hydrogen tanks, they drop them, shoot them, and even blow them up... they have come a long way in safety. If the tank is ruptured, it will just vent the fuel out rapidly.

But in any case, as I've already brought up, they HAVE developed methods of storing the hydrogen in solid state, I think they are just refining the system for cost efficiency and storage efficiency. When you get into the consumer automotive industry, it's got to be cheap.

I think the near future (10yrs) we will have fantastic hydrogen vehicles.. the real problem I forsee, which also has been discussed is the method of hydrogen production and the cost. What good is "clean" fuel, if it takes a polluting system to produce it or if the cost is too high, that will really hurt.. but then again petroleum is only getting more scarce.

exactly
the only main problem we will face is how do we produce hydrogen cleanly

electrolysis can seperate the hydrogen in water
so simply providing sufficient voltage thru a simple aparatus will do the trick
however, getting that electricity is a different matter
solar and other forms of green energy would be ideal

however, to produce hydrogen on a large scale, it is often extracted from methane and such gases in mines
it takes quite a bit of energy to extract as well
so it isnt an efficient process just yet

however, i dont think hydrogen cars will last very long once cold fusion is achieved
once we are able to mine helium 3 from the earth's moon, scientists by then should be a lot closer to making a proper working cold fusion reactor that could be super efficient, very very low radiation and highly compact

it would be small enuf to fit in a car and all you need is electric motors to run the car

hydrogen engines and fuel cell technology IMO is the middle man
it takes quite a bit of electricity to produce hydrogen at this moment
so might as well use the electricity powerplant in the car and cut out the extraction process

[FastFokker]

however, i dont think hydrogen cars will last very long once cold fusion is achieved
once we are able to mine helium 3 from the earth's moon, scientists by then should be a lot closer to making a proper working cold fusion reactor that could be super efficient, very very low radiation and highly compactSounds amazing, I've not heard of this technology.. time to google! :D

[Evil Techie]

wikipedia to the rescue

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_Fusion

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/Spawar1stGenCFCell.JPG

right now it is still a bit of unknown but im hoping that within our life time, we will see it materialize into large scale powerplants at least

[Div]

That's a neat looking contraption and the technology seems quite interesting. Hopefully it will be commercially viable in the near future.

[x-batman]

ANyone see CNN last night? The CNN Presents on the Oil shortage? They had shown a clip of Ethanol Fuel Based cars in Brazil. I think that is the way to go, the fuel comes from Sugar Canes, and is easy to produce.

[Anessa]

where would you find a hydrogen gas station?

California? The Governator said he was going to build some last year.

[loveQQ]

California? The Governator said he was going to build some last year.

The OP mentioned liquid hydrogen, I am just wondering what kind of technology they used to keep the hydrogen so cold and refill it to the car's tank. (bp of liq H2 is only 20K!)

[FastFokker]

ANyone see CNN last night? The CNN Presents on the Oil shortage? They had shown a clip of Ethanol Fuel Based cars in Brazil. I think that is the way to go, the fuel comes from Sugar Canes, and is easy to produce.Didn't see it, but I was watching The Amazing Race last week and they actually had to make fuel for their car from sugar cane. It was quite the process.. and I'm not sure how much sugar cane Canada can produce, but we do produce ethanol through corn right now. (probably other methods too)

I still don't really go for the idea of wasting so much useful land on growing crops for fuel, we need that land to grow food.

[BEpsilon]

hydrogen is very reactive, or rather, EXPLOSIVE, you won't be missing out on any accident because it would be a nuke going off if that thing ever leaks.

That's what I thought too. I prefer car makers using the diesel-electric (Euro4 + ) model - cheap, reliable, good performance.

[Focus]

ANyone see CNN last night? The CNN Presents on the Oil shortage? They had shown a clip of Ethanol Fuel Based cars in Brazil. I think that is the way to go, the fuel comes from Sugar Canes, and is easy to produce.

Base on today's tech, you will need convert the whole Africa into farm in order to have enough sugar canes for today's demand. Just FYI.