Japanese cars lead Consumer's picks

[Narci]

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1141253417353&call_pageid=968332188492&col=968793972154&t=TS_Home

Japanese cars lead Consumer's picks
Mar. 2, 2006. 08:09 AM
ASSOCIATED PRESS


DETROIT — For the first time, all the top picks in Consumer Reports magazine's annual vehicle guide are made by Japanese automakers.

The Honda Civic is the magazine's top small sedan, while the Toyota Highlander Hybrid is the top mid-sized sport utility vehicle, results released Wednesday showed. Vehicles from Nissan Motor Co. and Subaru, a division of Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd., round out the top picks in 10 categories.

Asian brands also fared best in the magazine's survey of vehicle reliability. Toyota Motor Corp.'s Lexus brand was first, while Honda was second and the Toyota brand was third. Ford Motor Co.'s Mercury brand was the only domestic nameplate to crack the top 10.

Consumer Reports' rankings are important to automakers, even though companies can't use the ratings in their advertising. Consumer Reports spokeswoman Lauren Hackett said the April auto issue is consistently the magazine's most popular, selling more than 300,000 copies at newsstands. That's twice as many copies as its second-most popular issue, the November electronics issue.

Consumer Reports began its top picks list in 1997. It is based on road and track tests, evaluations of comfort, convenience and fuel economy, crash-protection ratings from the government and insurance industry and readers' reliability rankings. The magazine said it recently tested more than 200 vehicles to come up with its top picks.

Honda had the most winners, snagging top picks in five of the 10 categories. Besides the redesigned Civic, the Honda Accord was the top family sedan between $20,000 and $30,000 and the Acura TL was the top upscale sedan between $30,000 and $40,000. The Honda Odyssey was the top minivan and the Honda Ridgeline, which is Honda's first entry in the pickup market, was the top pickup.

Toyota and Subaru each had two winners, including the Subaru Forester for small SUV and the Toyota Prius for "green car." Nissan had one, the M35 luxury sedan, which the magazine called "an excellent balance of performance, comfort and handling."

Reliability rankings are based on a survey of Consumer Reports subscribers who are asked if they have had serious problems with their vehicles in the last 12 months. The survey questions readers about 17 different trouble spots. For this year's survey, readers rated their experience with 810,000 vehicles from the 1998 through 2005 model years.

Consumer Reports said Japanese and Korean brands had 12 problems for every 100 vehicles, while U.S. automakers had 18 problems and European makers had 21 problems. Asian and U.S. automakers have been improving their scores but appeared to stall in 2005, the magazine said. European automakers' ratings haven't changed substantially in the last four years, the magazine said.

After Lexus, Honda and Toyota, the brands rounding out the top 10 for reliability were Mitsubishi, Subaru, Acura, Scion, Mercury, Mazda and Suzuki. The 10 lowest-rated brands were Audi, Infiniti, Saturn, Lincoln, Jaguar, Mercedes-Benz, Volkswagen, Land Rover, Hummer and Porsche.

[gordholio]

"Consumer Reports said Japanese and Korean brands had 12 problems for every 100 vehicles..."

[gilboman]

"Consumer Reports said Japanese and Korean brands had 12 problems for every 100 vehicles..."

it also said all 10 recommended cars in respective categories were all JAPANESE 5 from honda, 2 from toyota, 2from subaru and one from nissan

[mau108]

"Consumer Reports said Japanese and Korean brands had 12 problems for every 100 vehicles..."

compared to 500 problems for every 1 vehicle for domestics and euros ;)

[wong8egg]

compared to 500 problems for every 1 vehicle for domestics and euros ;)

rofl

[Slippery_Pete]

Its all true when CR reports Asian brands to be good. Its all lies when they report an American brand to be good. Long live Asia!

[SkiD]

I'm not sure how much I would trust Consumer Reports when it comes to rating cars (their survey methodology leaves a little to be desired). People should make decisions based on a variety of information, not just one source.


JD Power 2005 Initial Quality Study (# of problems per 100 vehicles)

Asian
81 - Lexus
105 - Toyota
109 - Infiniti
110 - Hyundai
112 - Honda
116 - Acura
118 - Industry Average
120 - Nissan
129 - Mitsubishi
134 - Scion
138 - Subaru
140 - Kia
149 - Mazda
151 - Suzuki

North American
100 - Buick
104 - Cadillac
110 - HUMMER
113 - GMC
113 - Lincoln
118 - Industry Average
120 - Jeep
120 - Mercury
121 - Chrysler
127 - Chevrolet
127 - Ford
129 - Pontiac
130 - Dodge
136 - Saturn

European
88 - Jaguar
95 - BMW
104 - Mercedes-Benz
106 - Audi
118 - Industry Average
130 - MINI
136 - Saab
140 - Volvo
147 - Porsche
147 - Volkswagen
149 - Land Rover

[hightech]

Not sure about that

I have a 2001 Buick Century and a 2002 Camry V6 and the Buick has less issues, and cost me $8K less

[bunga]

I see a big problem with JD Power right there. How can buick have 29 less than chevy? As far as I'm aware these cars are pretty much identical to the rest of the GM line up as they just "rebrand" the same car to suit the nameplate. I'd bet they build the cars right beside each other on the same assembly line too

[frogger]

They lost me picking the Ridgeline, the $35K truck with a puny bed and no v8 available.

[frogger]

I see a big problem with JD Power right there. How can buick have 29 less than chevy? As far as I'm aware these cars are pretty much identical to the rest of the GM line up as they just "rebrand" the same car to suit the nameplate. I'd bet they build the cars right beside each other on the same assembly line too
And a Lexus ES is a loaded up Camry and their SUV's are fancy Toyotas too.

[gilboman]

I see a big problem with JD Power right there. How can buick have 29 less than chevy? As far as I'm aware these cars are pretty much identical to the rest of the GM line up as they just "rebrand" the same car to suit the nameplate. I'd bet they build the cars right beside each other on the same assembly line too

because they are not identical. panels, some features and interior pieces are different.

[gilboman]

And a Lexus ES is a loaded up Camry and their SUV's are fancy Toyotas too.

big differnce is lexus is made in japan whereas most toyotas you buy here are made in USA/Canada . (with execption of some RX which are built in canada)

[Slippery_Pete]

big differnce is lexus is made in japan whereas most toyotas you buy here are made in USA/Canada . (with execption of some RX which are built in canada)

Which simpky makes them cheaper to buy. A Lexus could be made in NA too, but you wouldn't want to pay a similar price for a Toyota as you would a Lexus would you? Where would the status be then? You see a Lexus HAS to be more expensive than a Toyota, hook or crook.

[gilboman]

Which simpky makes them cheaper to buy. A Lexus could be made in NA too, but you wouldn't want to pay a similar price for a Toyota as you would a Lexus would you? Where would the status be then? You see a Lexus HAS to be more expensive than a Toyota, hook or crook.

a lexus can't be made in NA because there simply is no capacity, and besides, with emphasis on quality at toyota, doubt they want their premium brand to be assembled by N.Americans :lol:

[Slippery_Pete]

a lexus can't be made in NA because there simply is no capacity, and besides, with emphasis on quality at toyota, doubt they want their premium brand to be assembled by N.Americans :lol:

Do you honestly beleive it is the end line assembler that determines quality? It is the process that determines quality. The end line assembler is simply a tool, whether that tool resides in Japan or NA. If Toyota so desired the process could easily be implemented in NA. But they choose not to, in order to inflate the value of their premium brand.

[frogger]

Buick also does not market equivalent vehicles to the compact and small midsize Chevrolets (high volume cheap cars like the Cobalt and Malibu) or Corvette. Chevrolet has no equivalent to the Buick Lucerne. They overlap with the Impala/Lacrosse and their minivans.

[gilboman]

Do you honestly beleive it is the end line assembler that determines quality? It is the process that determines quality. The end line assembler is simply a tool, whether that tool resides in Japan or NA. If Toyota so desired the process could easily be implemented in NA. But they choose not to, in order to inflate the value of their premium brand.

not the sole reason..but the end line assembler DOES have some relevance to quality.

[Slippery_Pete]

not the sole reason..but the end line assembler DOES have some relevance to quality.

Very little. He/she is a tool. If the tool is defective, it is replaced.

[evilbunny]

Very little. He/she is a tool. If the tool is defective, it is replaced.

Clearly someone who has never worked in a union shop.

[otaque]

Toyota did comment publicly that their decision to open the new plant at Woodstock ON was based on a more well educated workforce here, compared to the Southern US states like Mississippi and Alabama, where workers had to be trained using pictorials.

That, and maybe free healthcare. :)

[M-e-X-x]

They lost me picking the Ridgeline, the $35K truck with a puny bed and no v8 available.

you're not the only one.. i don't get how many journals and such have picked the ridgeline as truck of the year...

[gilboman]

Very little. He/she is a tool. If the tool is defective, it is replaced.

you don't just replace a 20k tool. it takes a lot of time and money to train a worker, you aren't talking about min wage walmart/mcD's employees here. once you hired them, even if they are bad, you are pretty much stuck with them.

no to mention the work ethic of your N.American tool is much much much worse than a japanese tool ;)

i mean here, if people work like 50hrs a week and its big deal, over there and most of asia, 70hr work weeks are w/o OT pay is very common . everybody is trying to worker harder than the next guy. here, everybody is trying to leave earlier than the next guy. big difference :lol:

[Slippery_Pete]

Clearly someone who has never worked in a union shop.

If I recall correctly, Toyota is not a Union shop. Is this correct?

[7jaii]

These cars earned this distinction cause they make OK-Reliable cars while the Big 3 pissed away their marketshare. You think the Japanese makers are sitting on their laurals? Nope more candy coming out this year. Joke has to be those Chinese cars - One accident in the US and they will be sued for Millions $

[HighFlyer]

If I recall correctly, Toyota is not a Union shop. Is this correct?
They aren't. However, to minimize the chances of union certification, they have to give incentives (ie. union pay, benefits, work rules) for employees not to join.

[Slippery_Pete]

you don't just replace a 20k tool. it takes a lot of time and money to train a worker, you aren't talking about min wage walmart/mcD's employees here. once you hired them, even if they are bad, you are pretty much stuck with them.

no to mention the work ethic of your N.American tool is much much much worse than a japanese tool ;)

i mean here, if people work like 50hrs a week and its big deal, over there and most of asia, 70hr work weeks are w/o OT pay is very common . everybody is trying to worker harder than the next guy. here, everybody is trying to leave earlier than the next guy. big difference :lol:

I do agree with you somewhat. But I beleive the fact remains that it isn't the end worker that has propelled Toyota to be number 1, it is their entire process. With the right incentives, a NA worker can be as effective as a Japanese worker. I understand the whole "honour" thing within Japanese culture, but it's not without end. These are line workers not Zero pilots with divine glory on their mind. :) Are the Corollas and Matrix's out of SW Ontario inferior vehicles simply because they are made in Canada? Maybe they are. Can you show me some stats that says they are?

When it comes to car assembly I believe it is 2 major components that result in quality: Process, and quality part supply. That is where the NA manufacturers lag behind, particularly in quality part supply. I know, as I worked in an auto part supplier, and I saw the difference between parts destined for GM and parts destined for Toyota. There was an enitrely different QC process. It isn't some magic honourable worker mentality like which you see in the movies. See the movie Gung Ho for that. :)

[Slippery_Pete]

They aren't. However, to minimize the chances of union certification, they have to give incentives (ie. union pay, benefits, work rules) for employees not to join.

Of course they must give incentives (see my post above). What are the benefits of a Japan line worker? It isn't slavery I'm sure. Japan is a first world country with a high cost of living. Do employees of Toyota (I'm talking end workers only) sell themselves to the coroporation simply for a chance for work?

Toyota has played it smart in NA by avoiding Union certification in NA. They had the benefit of time to avoid this. I'm sure GM, Ford and Chrysler would have played the same game if they were given the chance.

[SLee]

They lost me picking the Ridgeline, the $35K truck with a puny bed and no v8 available.
It's probably exactly those reasons why its the best truck for the majority of personal truck buyers. Better gas mileage, better handling, safer for the occupants and other vehicles, more comfortable, etc.

[Narci]

I read somewhere JD Power's is owned or backed by the American car companies (i.e. for, gm, chrysler) whereas CS is a separate company.

I'm not sure if this is true though.

[frogger]

I read somewhere JD Power's is owned or backed by the American car companies (i.e. for, gm, chrysler) whereas CS is a separate company.

I'm not sure if this is true though.
Think about how useless their results would be treated if that were true. I can remember Toyota using JD Power results in their ads too.

[frogger]

It's probably exactly those reasons why its the best truck for the majority of personal truck buyers. Better gas mileage, better handling, safer for the occupants and other vehicles, more comfortable, etc.
Possibly, but thats like saying people buy a sports car for safety, fuel economy and its trunk rather than performance. PS the F150 has excellent crash test results.

[SLee]

Possibly, but thats like saying people buy a sports car for safety, fuel economy and its trunk rather than performance. PS the F150 has excellent crash test results.
And the Ridgeline is also a very capable mid-size truck with more car-like handling, safety and comfort and that's a benefit given the nature of many personal truck buyers these days.

[Slippery_Pete]

I read somewhere JD Power's is owned or backed by the American car companies (i.e. for, gm, chrysler) whereas CS is a separate company.

I'm not sure if this is true though.

Maybe CS is backed by the Japanese companies :-0

[gilboman]

I read somewhere JD Power's is owned or backed by the American car companies (i.e. for, gm, chrysler) whereas CS is a separate company.

I'm not sure if this is true though.

No it is not true. must be some jealous VW/Audi owners who said that since it shows that their car's reliabilitiy really is at bottom of the pack all the time. :lol:

[abstract808]

whereas CS is a separate company
Do you mean CR (Consumer Reoports?) CR belongs to a nonprofit organization (Consumers Union) and doesn't accept advertising. JD Power is a for-profit organization that sells its surveys to generate revenue.

[a2vr6]

Maybe CS is backed by the Japanese companies :-0


I don't understand why your so against the fact that Toyota/Honda make superior cars? Anyone in there right mind can see this. Mazda at one time used to build decent cars but as soon as Ford began meddling with them, there quality has gone down the tubes.

I would much rather see our dollars supporting our own economy but in the end I don't think we should be the ones that support a lazy workforce. Seriously, unions were useful at one time but now thye mainly just encourage lazy ass overpaid people.

Additionally, you mention that Toyota's process is the reason there cars have such high quality. What do you think will happen to that once they try to move more of there factories and engineering to North America?

I think everyone should worry more about our outsourcing of Jobs to the middle east and eastern europe, than what car you purchase since our economy benefits one way or another.

[Audiogenic]

No surprise here. Just look at how the number of imports versus domestic has shifted over the last 20 years by simply looking at what's on the road today. That trend will continue which may force higher tarrifs on imports someday.

[belgiangenius]

No it is not true. must be some jealous VW/Audi owners who said that since it shows that their car's reliabilitiy really is at bottom of the pack all the time. :lol:

That's what I don't get - people paying very high prices for VWs, MB's, and BMWs, when according to the rankings, they're total rubbish.

[sleepyguy]

Just my own account but every single person I know who owns a VM or Audi has some serious problems.

That's what I don't get - people paying very high prices for VWs, MB's, and BMWs, when according to the rankings, they're total rubbish.

[Slippery_Pete]

I don't understand why your so against the fact that Toyota/Honda make superior cars? Anyone in there right mind can see this. Mazda at one time used to build decent cars but as soon as Ford began meddling with them, there quality has gone down the tubes.


Please quote where I said I was against the FACT that Toyota and Honda make exceptional great cars. Please quote that. I'm waiting...


I would much rather see our dollars supporting our own economy but in the end I don't think we should be the ones that support a lazy workforce. Seriously, unions were useful at one time but now thye mainly just encourage lazy ass overpaid people.

Toyota North America does not employ a Union workforce. A company that provides the proper incentives does not require a union. Toyota has proved this several times in the last few years.


Additionally, you mention that Toyota's process is the reason there cars have such high quality. What do you think will happen to that once they try to move more of there factories and engineering to North America?

Well, lets see. More jobs in North America for one? I guess that doesn't matter, so long as you get your high quality Lexus? Like I said before the end-line worker is not the be all and end all in quality. Yes he/she plays a part. But in a properly quality controlled process, the part is small.

I think everyone should worry more about our outsourcing of Jobs to the middle east and eastern europe, than what car you purchase since our economy benefits one way or another

Come again? Why is that any different than worrying about buying cars made in Japan or elsewhere for that matter? You seem to feel that it is ok to control the job market, but not the auto market. If middle easterns, eastern europeans, chinese and indians can do the job more efficiently and cheaper than why shouldn't they get the jobs? Why should a lazy North American get the job?

I never talked about controlling where cars are made, but you seem to think that jobs should only be held in certain places. I simple stated that North Americans could build a Lexus under the proper process which Toyota already has in place.

[rdx]

Clearly someone who has never worked in a union shop.

Exactly, 100% agree. E.g. GM mgmt sure knows what their problem is for the low quality car. But, they just simply can't change the way how people in union work (along with the high pay and super good benefit & pension plan). Union could eventually force GM and other big corps with union into bankruptcy.........

[rdx]

No it is not true. must be some jealous VW/Audi owners who said that since it shows that their car's reliabilitiy really is at bottom of the pack all the time. :lol:

But I do hear lot of compliants/problems with them. E.g. A friend of mine has multiple problems with the electrical system of her brand new A4 in the FIRST year......... Can't image what happen after the warranty expires......

I guess people don't mind paying premium, but at least we should be getting preminium quality at the premium price, like Lexus. Not premium price for premium problems :mad:

[belgiangenius]

But I do hear lot of compliants/problems with them. E.g. A friend of mine has multiple problems with the electrical system of her brand new A4 in the FIRST year......... Can't image what happen after the warranty expires......

I guess people don't mind paying premium, but at least we should be getting preminium quality at the premium price, like Lexus. Not premium price for premium problems :mad:

You nailed it.

It's the thing that baffles me most - people who pay big money for big crap.

[Narci]

Exactly, 100% agree. E.g. GM mgmt sure knows what their problem is for the low quality car. But, they just simply can't change the way how people in union work (along with the high pay and super good benefit & pension plan). Union could eventually force GM and other big corps with union into bankruptcy.........

If the unions push GM and other big corps into brankruptcy, does that mean they can dissolve the unions?

[Evil Techie]

YAY LEXUS!

but really, what is happening to Porsche's quality?

i thought their initial quality is always very high
i guess their ties with VW has came to bite them in the ass

[belgiangenius]

If the unions push GM and other big corps into brankruptcy, does that mean they can dissolve the unions?

Potentially. While operating under Chapter 11, it may be a possibility.

[Quick_lude]

Who cares about initial quality anyway.. The more telling surveys are the long term reliability ones.

[leedan91]

YAY LEXUS!

but really, what is happening to Porsche's quality?

i thought their initial quality is always very high
i guess their ties with VW has came to bite them in the ass

Yes, I definitely agree with you. I used to follow the JD rankings and Porsche was one of the best. I read in the National Post that the reason why Porsche dropped so much the past year is because of one car, the Cayenna, which they make with VW, so I agree with you. It's their stupid relationship with VW that is screwing up their once stellar brand.

[Pete00]

Porsche dropped so much the past year is because of one car, the Cayenna,

Same reason Infiniti did terrible on the consumer report - their suv was the well documented problem child :lol:

[SkiD]

Who cares about initial quality anyway.. The more telling surveys are the long term reliability ones.

JD Power 2005 Vehicle Dependability Study
(Problems per 100 Vehicles - 3 Years)

Asian
139 - Lexus
178 - Infiniti
194 - Toyota
201 - Honda
203 - Acura
237 - Industry Average
252 - Mazda
260 - Hyundai
260 - Subaru
275 - Nissan
278 - Mitsubishi
292 - Suzuki
318 - Daewoo
331 - Isuzu
397 - Kia

North American
151 - Lincoln
163 - Buick
175 - Cadillac
195 - Mercury
231 - Ford
232 - Chevrolet
235 - Chrysler
237 - Industry Average
240 - Saturn
242 - Oldsmobile
245 - GMC
245 - Pontiac
273 - Dodge
289 - Jeep

European
149 - Porsche
225 - BMW
237 - Industry Average
266 - Volvo
268 - Jaguar
283 - Mercedes-Benz
286 - Saab
312 - Audi
335 - Volkswagen
383 - MINI
395 - Land Rover

[Evil Techie]

Yes, I definitely agree with you. I used to follow the JD rankings and Porsche was one of the best. I read in the National Post that the reason why Porsche dropped so much the past year is because of one car, the Cayenna, which they make with VW, so I agree with you. It's their stupid relationship with VW that is screwing up their once stellar brand.

i think porsche will be screwed even further using VW's platform for Panamera
but it might be bentley that might take advantage of the Panamera platform or maybe VW will make a new Phaeton class car out of panamera

who knows but as soon as porsche stopped its collaboration with maserati, things arent looking so bright anymore

that being said, i think 911 is getting better than ever and i would definately buy one if i have reached that income level

now i am rather surprised that infiniti has gotten their acts together and started building quality cars
G35 and M35 are definately worth considering now that they are proven to be fairly reliable

[Quick_lude]

Toyota and Lexus will eventually take over the market.. ;)
It will be just like in the "Demolition Man", "ALL restaurants are now Taco Bell." :lol:

[belgiangenius]

Who cares about initial quality anyway.. The more telling surveys are the long term reliability ones.

It is related....initial quality is related to the plastic hardware inside your GM that keeps breaking off.

[leedan91]

i think porsche will be screwed even further using VW's platform for Panamera
but it might be bentley that might take advantage of the Panamera platform or maybe VW will make a new Phaeton class car out of panamera

who knows but as soon as porsche stopped its collaboration with maserati, things arent looking so bright anymore

that being said, i think 911 is getting better than ever and i would definately buy one if i have reached that income level

now i am rather surprised that infiniti has gotten their acts together and started building quality cars
G35 and M35 are definately worth considering now that they are proven to be fairly reliable

I agree with you. I think 911 is better than ever also and I plan to buy one one day also. I also agree with your assessment of Infiniti, although at that price, I might buy a BMW just because of status, not just quality :(

Anywayas, seems like we have the same taste in cars.

[leedan91]

OK, so I have decided to take the plunge and buy a pre-owned 2006 BMW 325xi. Any advice on how best to buy it? Or, should I buy a new 2007 BMW 328xi by going across the border to Buffalo and importing my own car. Has anyone bought a BMW from a dealer in Buffalo and brought it back to Toronto? Is it worth the cost savings?

[new_vr]

That's what I don't get - people paying very high prices for VWs, MB's, and BMWs, when according to the rankings, they're total rubbish.
According to the rankings is the operative words. I don't think you could say total rubbish though.
I can't deny that the quality on euro cars is worse then that of Japanese cars, but they definetly aren't rubbish.
These magazines don't take any regard for the actual riving experience. This may not matter to you, but it does matter to some people. I have driven toyotas before, and I am pretty sure they were designed to let you know how it would feel to be dead. No feedback from the outside world. Hondas are better, but I have never been able to deal with the lack of torque from their engines...they are improving though.
Another point not taken into consideration is that your average euro car driver is going to be more discerning then a corolla driver. For instance, my sister has a corolla, that makes weird noises, and if it was my car, would be in the shop. She doesn't even notice them. For her, the car is to get from point a to b, nothing else. As long as it starts and goes, it's ok.
It is always funny to see how some people love to use these polls to justify themselves. The poll said I made a great choice for a car, I am a good person, people love me.
It's also funny to see the rabid hatred come out in other people. I don't know what a car did to make them so miserable, but it's usually good for a laugh

[D-3vil]

OK, so I have decided to take the plunge and buy a pre-owned 2006 BMW 325xi. Any advice on how best to buy it? Or, should I buy a new 2007 BMW 328xi by going across the border to Buffalo and importing my own car. Has anyone bought a BMW from a dealer in Buffalo and brought it back to Toronto? Is it worth the cost savings?

Holy thread revival, Batman! Why not start a new thread?
I believe BMW's are made in Germany, so you'd have to pay an extra 15% import fees which may negate any cost savings derived from the exchange rate advantage.