Canada must assert its sovereignty in the Arctic

[Sgt_Strider]

I'm sure a lot of people aren't aware of this, but here is a CBC News link that will help people understand this.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/arctic.html

I love this country, but the lack of real action by the previous Liberal government to assert our sovereignty in the Arctic has disappointed me. At the rate that global warming is advancing, it's only going to be natural that the Northwest passage will become available for shipping. Canada has the ability to profit from this as the government can charge ships for entering our territory. The problem is that the United States doesn't recognize our sovereignty in the Arctic. I'm glad that something is being done by Stephen Harper as he will boost our presence in the area. If we don't do something now, we may lose something that belongs to all of us.

[Evil Techie]

funny how we are going to take advantage of global warming

now everyone, start your engines and burn those gas!
suport our own nation's future!

[Sgt_Strider]

funny how we are going to take advantage of global warming

now everyone, start your engines and burn those gas!
suport our own nation's future!

lol...It's either us or someone else.

[slc95]

I'm sure a lot of people aren't aware of this, but here is a CBC News link that will help people understand this.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/arctic.html

I love this country, but the lack of real action by the previous Liberal government to assert our sovereignty in the Arctic has disappointed me. At the rate that global warming is advancing, it's only going to be natural that the Northwest passage will become available for shipping. Canada has the ability to profit from this as the government can charge ships for entering our territory. The problem is that the United States doesn't recognize our sovereignty in the Arctic. I'm glad that something is being done by Stephen Harper as he will boost our presence in the area. If we don't do something now, we may lose something that belongs to all of us.

This is not just an issue with the Liberals. We have had a soverignity problem in the Arctic for many years now, since the massive cutbacks in the Canadian Forces. The Conservatives think that by sending a few token CF members up to "patrol" the Arctic will effectively solve the problem? I think that icebreakers and satellites/sensors are a great idea in theory, but I have a hard time believing that the current government would be able to implement this in even the next 10 years. It takes a very long time for any significant military purchase to ever reach fruition.

I would love to see a greater role for CFS Alert. It's smack dab in the middle of where we need to be patrolling. I think increasing the number of Canadian Rangers would be a good idea too, as well as improving equipment and training for them. As well trained as our troops are in Arctic climate patrols/training, there is no substitute for generations upon generations of Inuit experience. They know the north better than anyone.

I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that this is a brand new government and they they're going to want to make it look like they're going to come good on every single campaign promise they made. Let's face it...they won't. No government ever does. If this one is the first, I will give each and every registered member of RFD $1000 (and if you believe THAT, I announce my candidacy for the next elections ;) ).

Our Forces have been grossly neglected for far too long and, although I believe Arctic soverignty is an important issue, there are much more pressing issues, IMHO, that the current administration needs to deal with for our military before that.

[FastFokker]

funny how we are going to take advantage of global warming

now everyone, start your engines and burn those gas!
suport our own nation's future!
Unless we go into a deep freeze again. Then Canada will be useless land for a veeeery long time.

[TrevorK]

I agree something needs to be done.

One main reason is that Canada will be the country affected if there is an oil spill by a ship that is not seaworthy travelling through those waters.

[purple_rabbit]

It has an interesting article on this issue of the Northwest Passage

[blackhawk]

The DEW line of manned radars has been in the arctic for 50 years although with modern advances it is now automated and there is still a canadian military base on the north end of the arctic archilpeligo which was once(and still is) used for radio wave interception.

The military also built air bases in conjunction with 4 civilian airports in the arctic for the advanced deployment of jet fighters. These are equipped to house and support fighters although are not permanently manned.

When the used british subs for free deal was being pondered, it was again suggested that what the govt needed was nuclear subs that could transit under the polar ice cap and cruise the northwest passage but this idea was dismissed as it would cost money and the word nuclear is a red flag to the socialists/lefties that permeate the govt and military.

We do have the canadian rangers patrolling and also have military exercises with combined forces starting 2 years ago.

I think the deep water port idea for iqaluit is foolish as its at the end of a very long shallow bay plus a long ways from the northwest passage. A better idea would be to put one in resolute bay or nanisivik as they are on the passage and have some infrastructure there already.

Armed ice breakers would be unuseable part of the winter no matter what and air and land patrols would be a more feasible option in my opinion.

There is now a lot of over the pole commercial jet service and adventure tourism in the arctic and with the search and rescue cut back and based in yellowknife, 500 miles from the beginning of the arctic leaves a big gap there. The longest serving arctic tourist ship is a leased russian ice breaker, as powerful as any our govt owns. Thats not right.

Having worked up there for almost 30 years, the weather is changing and there is a great deal more open water lately and warmer weather brings worse storms up there and more focus and interest.

Its been good that the govt has been looking north for the last 5 years or so but a lot of money needs to be spent.

[FastFokker]

It's really hard to spend money up in the North though, considering almost everyone lives along the USA/CAN border and want all the tax money to be spent on themselves.

Soon as people start hearing about funding going outside the major metro centers, they get up in arms.

I definitely think something better needs to go to the Rangers, they're truly pathetic and not by their own fault. They're given almost no training, given almost no equipment and almost no funding.. what a joke. The inuit people *WANT* to remain in the North, so why not use that resource and start giving them what they need to be useful.

blackhawk, you're obviously more informed on the subject, can you elaborate on the how you mentioned the Canadian Rangers are having military exercises with the regular forces as of 2years ago? What does this entail?

[porsche22]

It's really hard to spend money up in the North though, considering almost everyone lives along the USA/CAN border and want all the tax money to be spent on themselves.

Soon as people start hearing about funding going outside the major metro centers, they get up in arms.

I definitely think something better needs to go to the Rangers, they're truly pathetic and not by their own fault. They're given almost no training, given almost no equipment and almost no funding.. what a joke. The inuit people *WANT* to remain in the North, so why not use that resource and start giving them what they need to be useful.

blackhawk, you're obviously more informed on the subject, can you elaborate on the how you mentioned the Canadian Rangers are having military exercises with the regular forces as of 2years ago? What does this entail?

Is that for real?? i was alwys under the impression that the canadian military was really well trained and well equipped like good camo good guns, but we were lackign in armoured things like vehicles and boats and jet planes. As well we lack in numbers. I'm not enitrely sure i heard this from a buddy who is in the reserve and he could jus be sayin this cause he's a little too proud.

As well isn't canada's JTF2 world renown (sp?).. ya it would be nice to kno how our military stands... are we small in numbers but make up in skill??

[FastFokker]

No no.. I am not trying to put down our military.. they are terribly under funded, yet do a fantastic job with the equipment they are forced to use.

My complaint was mostly based at the Canadian Rangers, which seems mostly like a joke.. like no offense to the people who are Rangers, as a person can only be as good as the training, leadership, equipment and experiences.. but these Rangers from my knowledge get minimal training and almost no equipment or funding.

They're a great asset as they're already living in the North (saves us giving top dollars to southerners who don't *WANT* to be up there). It's time we utilize that natural resource and drop some time and money to allow them to help Canada in the ways they would love to, and the ways we'd love them to.

Also I'm not familiar with the JTF2, as I shouldn't be.. :lol: (shh they're supposed to be SUPER SECRET! ;) )

[slc95]

No no.. I am not trying to put down our military.. they are terribly under funded, yet do a fantastic job with the equipment they are forced to use.

My complaint was mostly based at the Canadian Rangers, which seems mostly like a joke.. like no offense to the people who are Rangers, as a person can only be as good as the training, leadership, equipment and experiences.. but these Rangers from my knowledge get minimal training and almost no equipment or funding.


Do not confuse the Canadian Rangers with the US Army Rangers. Not the same thing. The Rangers probably receive less support, training, and funding than the Cadet movement does, and definately not anywhere near what the Reserves get (although Rangers are technically part of the Reserves). They are issued WWII era weapons, a sweatsuit for a uniform, and usually don't train more than once a month. Their experience is not from military courses and training, it is from what they do for a living anyway, that which has been passed down to them for generations.


The DEW line of manned radars has been in the arctic for 50 years although with modern advances it is now automated and there is still a canadian military base on the north end of the arctic archilpeligo which was once(and still is) used for radio wave interception.

The military also built air bases in conjunction with 4 civilian airports in the arctic for the advanced deployment of jet fighters. These are equipped to house and support fighters although are not permanently manned.

When the used british subs for free deal was being pondered, it was again suggested that what the govt needed was nuclear subs that could transit under the polar ice cap and cruise the northwest passage but this idea was dismissed as it would cost money and the word nuclear is a red flag to the socialists/lefties that permeate the govt and military.

We do have the canadian rangers patrolling and also have military exercises with combined forces starting 2 years ago.



The DEW line is pretty much obsolete at this point. It only monitors air space, not surface or sub surface. The airfields that support our aircraft in the near arctic are really only QRA pads capable of launching about 3 aircraft. And these normally aren't manned unless a mission is scheduled, or intelligence that they will be required there ahead of time is received. The majority of the time, any response at all to a threat would be CF-18s scrambled from Cold Lake, AB or Bagotville PQ, and while I can't give you a length of time as to how long it would take to intercept an aircraft entering or airspace over the arctic from there, I can guarantee you they would be well within Canadian territory by the time any fighters got to them.

And this still doesn't solve the problem of surface and subsurface sovereignty. While aerial and ground patrols are be conducted regularly in the Arctic as we speak, it isn't enough. For all we know, there could be an Al Qaeda training camp somewhere up there and we may never even know it.

As well isn't canada's JTF2 world renown (sp?).. ya it would be nice to kno how our military stands... are we small in numbers but make up in skill??

JTF is a highly trained, top secret organization that is as good or better than the British SAS, US Navy SeALs, and Israel's Sayeret Matkal. I know quite a bit on the selection process and type of training that JTF receives, but I'm not at liberty to discuss it. I can say, however, that they will definately be playing a larger part in any of our new operations that we commit to, domestic and international.

[hyperion]

Canada needs assert its sovereignty in a number of areas including the Artic in order to be taken seriously by US and other parts of the world. I'm sick of US treating Canada as the dumb cousin up north.

[thezone]

yep we need to assert that sovereignty to show all those countries that that think the arctic doesn't belong to us. Also the US has been sending subs into the waters without our permission for quite a while and if global warming keeps up with what its been doing that northern passage is going to be very important.

[purple_rabbit]

JTF is a highly trained, top secret organization that is as good or better than the British SAS, US Navy SeALs, and Israel's Sayeret Matkal. I know quite a bit on the selection process and type of training that JTF receives, but I'm not at liberty to discuss it.


Oh common you know you want to tell us :) Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top?

[gaurav_fhs]

Oh common you know you want to tell us :) Pretty pretty please with a cherry on top?
He can. But then, he'll have to kill you.

[TheOneBarton]

Why do you want to know the JTF2 selection process?? I don't think it matters because most people can't maintain that level of training for a period of time, much more living that kinda of lifestyle. These are the guys that will charge in with bayonet while being fired upon. As for ranger regiment/group in the CF, I heard a lot of them got disbanded due to the lack of effort by the higher ups. If the officer does nothing to train the troops, what is the troop to do other than show up for meetings and drink afterward? I guess you need competent people to run and train the troops. IF the veterans don't train the troops properly, the new troops gets lazy and careless passes on the same attitude, therefore rendering the military quite ineffective.

[blackhawk]

To elaborate on the ranger/regular force exercises, these have been going on in small ways all along. The rangers are meant to be scouts and to report back to the military authorities any suspicious activity they encounter in their long trips out hunting & to provide local knowledge and talent in support of the regular force.

Did you know that german uboats landed along the labrador coast during ww2 and setup automated weather sites to help them ambush convoys! These weren't discovered till after the war.

Their secondary use is as survival trainers, guides and scouts for regular force units although no regular force units are specifically arctic trained.

Are you aware that canada has search and rescue responsibilities extending to the north pole but the planes are based in trenton! The planes in yellowknife were downgraded and sold off so that theirs very little that can be done out of there.

On a social note, this is an excellent use of the inuit men as the modern world isn't very good to them with their role of hunter being replaced by the co-op store and govt as provider.
I have a tremendous respect for the work ethic and hardiness of the inuit.

I was in the regular forces for 4 years quite a while ago and our arctic training was done just north of edmonton! This training was primarily aimed at support in northern norway as part of canadas nato committment and not at our own arctic where the weather is extremely severe.

I did a unit exchange to australia for 'jungle' training and the aussies went to cambridge bay for arctic training. I definitely got the best part of that deal!

Two years ago the army, navy and airforce plus the rangers had an exercise on baffin island to expose the combined regular forces to arctic conditions although this didn't happen in wintertime but in the fall which can be very severe as well. This was good for showing up weaknesses and just upgrading the awareness of the military. This was the furthest north the navy had been!
The rangers have also supported a cross the arctic military patrol several years ago. These are important to test equipment and establish sovereignty.

Its amazing that canada is as tall as it is wide and the emptiness of the arctic has to be experienced. Mining exploration is going on constantly, some oil drilling quite a few years ago and the limiting factor is access. Mines at nanisivik and cornwallis island concentrated and stockpiled ore for shipment a couple times a year by specialized ships directly to europe. Both those mines have closed now but their are many promising diamond finds in the east.

[Sgt_Strider]

This is not just an issue with the Liberals. We have had a soverignity problem in the Arctic for many years now, since the massive cutbacks in the Canadian Forces. The Conservatives think that by sending a few token CF members up to "patrol" the Arctic will effectively solve the problem? I think that icebreakers and satellites/sensors are a great idea in theory, but I have a hard time believing that the current government would be able to implement this in even the next 10 years. It takes a very long time for any significant military purchase to ever reach fruition.

I would love to see a greater role for CFS Alert. It's smack dab in the middle of where we need to be patrolling. I think increasing the number of Canadian Rangers would be a good idea too, as well as improving equipment and training for them. As well trained as our troops are in Arctic climate patrols/training, there is no substitute for generations upon generations of Inuit experience. They know the north better than anyone.

I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that this is a brand new government and they they're going to want to make it look like they're going to come good on every single campaign promise they made. Let's face it...they won't. No government ever does. If this one is the first, I will give each and every registered member of RFD $1000 (and if you believe THAT, I announce my candidacy for the next elections ;) ).

Our Forces have been grossly neglected for far too long and, although I believe Arctic soverignty is an important issue, there are much more pressing issues, IMHO, that the current administration needs to deal with for our military before that.

I agree with some of your points. The military is getting another $5.3 billion according to the defence minister. I do agree that it'll take time, but I rather take action sooner rather than later. Foreign submarines could be in our waters and spying on us without us ever knowing. The sooner we put up some sort of detection system there, the better.

[blackhawk]

One more point I have is the lack of patrolling from the aurora maritime patrol aircraft that are aging and decisions have to be made on. When they first came out about 20 years ago I used to see them about twice a year in the central arctic doing both high and low level patrols and haven't seen or heard them in the last 10 years in the arctic. These aged aircraft have the airborne sensors and equipment to monitor a lot of airspace and the decision to upgrade or replace them is fast approaching. Cutting back their hours of use to the prime east/west coast areas has hurt the arctic surveillance.

Undersea surveillance can only be done with sonar(sosus installations) and nuclear submarines.

A further note to the dew line site of radars, although origonally built to detect over the pole manned bombers from russia/china(last incursion was in the early nineties) they can now be used to monitor air traffic of which there is an increasing amount, both over the pole commercial to asia and europe to west coast.
This role within norad is up for negotiation very soon and my concern with the liberals if they got in would be to cancel this as well as any support of the USA is very unpopular in quebec.

The expansion of the military isn't easy as the facilities have been sold off, staff lost and the ramp up to expand will take a while. Dont be fooled by the huge amounts spent on the military, much of it goes to civilian staffing(about 1/3 of the present military) and other 'nonmilitary' items like chretiens private jet he bought from his buddy at bombardier at full market cost etc.

Military exercises in remote areas are incredibly expensive and contracting out to civilian groups for support is increasingly used as the military ability to be self sufficient in transportation and support deteriorates.

The use of special forces is increasingly popular as the levels of large support aren't as demanding as say a regular force battalion although the support and special equipment is expensive. The govt is also reforming the Canadian Airborne Regt(my old unit) again from where it was deployed back to their parent units when chretien 'disbanded' it(poor leadership has always plagued our military of "civil servants in uniform" officers corp).

The one big difference over the last several decades between the liberal and conservative govt is the neglect and misuse of the military by every liberal prime minister. Martin seemed to be coming around a bit with his focus on the north the last couple years but liberals never campaign to win by saying anything positive about the military or the usa.