Fatah protests rock Gaza after Hamas win

[poedua]

Good to see democracy in action in Palestine...even though it may yeild bitter fruit.

Hamas gets 74 seats
Fatah gets 45

I understand that Fatah supporters, including Palestinian security officers, are protesting for the resignation of the Fatah central committee. Peaceful protests are part of the demcratic process. What I don't understand is, Fatah lost fair and square, yet they're also protesting that Fatah should not take part in any new government led by Hamas.

I'm just not sure why poltical protest in that part of the world inolves the threat of ( or use ) of violence.. For example...from al jeezera ....

Protesters broke down the gates of the Gaza branch of the Palestinian Legislative Council, which had been reinforced after a similar incursion on Friday, but security forces inside offered no resistance. The crowd held aloft pictures of Yasser Arafat, the late Palestinian leader and Fatah founding father, as well as yellow flags of the party, while gunmen fired into the air.

"Men and women carried automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenade launchers in a good-tempered demonstration as poetry and songs about Fatah blared from the sound system, along with speeches by the late Arafat." ........." Thousands of protesters clamoured outside the parliament building in Gaza City late on Friday, setting fire to three parliament cars and demanding that Fatah should not take part in any new government led by Hamas "

I just couldn't picture Liberal supporters here in Canada burning cars and storming Parilament because the Libs lost.......ditto for when Harper lost last time.

Why would any peaceful protest ever have to involve "automatic weapons and rocket-propelled grenade launchers " .....and another had " gunmen fired into the air " ? Why mix guns and domestic politics ? I don't get that.

Could they be headed for some sort of civil war ?

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/55034ABC-912B-4AE2-96E3-F35DB93BE574.htm

[steve.m]

sounds more like you are hoping they will kill each other and a bit of hype/fearmongering. This is slightly old news and i watched the news the other day when the protest began on CNN LIVE and watched them light up a car. But after hearing their leaders on megaphone the crowd dispersed.

PS" If you have noticed in the past they always go out with the AK47s and shoot them in the air either to show they are pissed off or for celebrating. So this protest news is no big deal.

I don't know why the do it but they do it anyhow. Maybe they have no firecrackers so they use the next closest thing that makes noise. lol

I am more worried as to how they will get to negotiating with Israel since they are so serious about not wanting to declare peace/ rewritting their charter. The mideast players have been drifting apart and becoming more radical on both sides.

[poedua]

sounds more like you are hoping they will kill each other and a bit of hype/fearmongering. This is slightly old news and i watched the news the other day when the protest began on CNN LIVE and watched them light up a car. But after hearing their leaders on megaphone the crowd dispersed.

PS" If you have noticed in the past they always go out with the AK47s and shoot them in the air either to show they are pissed off or for celebrating. So this protest news is no big deal.

I don't know why the do it but they do it anyhow. Maybe they have no firecrackers so they use the next closest thing that makes noise. lol

I am more worried as to how they will get to negotiating with Israel since they are so serious about not wanting to declare peace. The mideast players have been drifting apart and becoming more radical on both sides.

I can understand what marching around screaming "death to israel " might involve themes of violence and arms - but domestic politics ?

But, what role do AK47s RPG's have - in what al Jeezera called an a " good-tempered demonstration as poetry and songs about Fatah "- to do with protests about internal elections ?

Why all the guns / RPG's coupled with "songs "& "poetry "...I thought that "show of force " was reserved for Israel ?

[steve.m]

I can understand what marching around screaming "death to israel " might involve themes of violence and arms - but domestic politics ?

But, what role do AK47s RPG's have - in what al Jeezera called an a " good-tempered demonstration as poetry and songs about Fatah "- to do with protests about internal elections ?

Why all the guns / RPG's coupled with "songs "& "poetry "...I thought that "show of force " was reserved for Israel ?


rpg is crazy and note it was not used but there was a slight shootout between fatah and hamas with one guy injured. They knew and hoped they would end in a confrontation. THey were acting just like the gangs in toronto except there the police won't arrest you as easily if you pull out the AK.
If they really wanted to burn down his residence they would have but it was more to protest than to actaully kill him. In fact he was not even there.

Also intelligence really is a factor, some of the members of both parties are just thugs and are only educated in gun/weapons.

[poedua]

rpg is crazy and note it was not used but there was a slight shootout between fatah and hamas with one guy injured. They knew and hoped they would end in a confrontation. Just like the gangs in toronto except there the police won't arrest you as easily if you pull out the AK.
If they really wanted to burn down his residence they would have but it was more to protest than to actaully kill him. In fact he was not even there.

On the RPG...it's sort of the best example fo what puzzles me.

I would just find it very distrurbing if, in Canada for example, the NDP's staged a peaceful rally or protest in Ottawa / Toronto, but with military weapons as part of it.

Picturing NDP supporters marching down Yonge Street to protest the incumbent government in Toronto- brandishing AK47's ( some being fired in to the air ) & RPG's - would seem surreal to me. I MIGHT be able to comprehend such a parade if we were at war with the US.

But, at Im at a loss as to why AK47's and RPG's seems to be relevant to a region like Palestine that is trying to form it's own government , when it would be such an anomaly here to see AK47's and RPG's as part of our poltical process ...it's as though the message form Palestine is that violence and domestic poltics ( Fatah vs Hamas ) are not mutally exclusive. :)

[steve.m]

On the RPG...it's sort of the best example fo what puzzles me.

I would just find it very distrurbing if, in Canada for example, the NDP's staged a peaceful rally or protest in Ottawa / Tororonto, but with military weapons as part of it.

Picturing NDP supporters marching down Yonge Street to protest the incumbent government in Toronto- brandishing AK47's ( some being fired in to the air ) & RPG's - would seem surreal to me. I MIGHT be able to comprehend such a parade if we were at war with the US.

But, at Im at a loss as to why AK47's and RPG's seems to be relevant to a region like Palestine that is trying to form it's own government , when it would be such an anomaly here to see AK47's and RPG's as part of our poltical process ...it's as though the message form Palestine is that violence and domestic poltics ( Fatah vs Hamas ) are not mutally exclusive. :)



how can you compare mid east to canada. Two different worlds. If you really want to understand how someone can walk around with an AK and the mentality I suggest you live Iraq or Palestian territories even a month. Watch people be bombed and rounded up and taken for torture. Canada is a paridise compared to the living conditions there. living there must fcuk up the mind.

edit: I think using Canada and the politcs here with guns is a bad example. If they were similar lifestyles and living conditions between palestine and Canada and then you asked why do they use guns there and not here in politics that would make sense. But the cultures and living conditions are on opposite ends of the scale eg there 70% unemployment. In fact you can't even call what the palestians have there a country as we know it. there the priorities are 1) not getting killed 2) eating and the politics of the mid east more often fall into who has the strongest leader not through a democractic process which is a new concept to them.

[poedua]

how can you compare mid east to canada. Two different worlds. If you really want to understand how someone can walk around with an AK and the mentality I suggest you live Iraq or Palestian territories even a month. Watch people be bombed and rounded up and taken for torture. Canada is a paridise compared to the living conditions there. living there must fcuk up the mind.

I understand walking around with an AK or RPG when you're in Iraq and taking on invading Americans...or I can even see it if people are of the view that Israel are an occupyng state as well - and an AK or RPG refelcts their position towards Israel.

But why the policies and differences of fatah vs hamas - which is an internal poltical debate - needs to use ( as part of it's expression ) AK47's and RPG's makes no sense to me.

....all they advocate is violence between fatah & hamas ...is this really a valid and ethical for these people of the same state, to resolve differences ?

Probably a lot tougher to have access to RPG's and AK47's here in Canada ....all the streret gangs probably have them ! :)

[steve.m]

But why the policies and differences of fatah vs hamas - which is an internal poltical debate - needs to use ( as part of it's expression ) AK47's and RPG's makes no sense to me.

....all they advocate is violence between fatah & hamas ...is this really a valid and ethical for these people of the same state, to resolve differences ?




But did they have a giant killing spree that night of the protest or was the show of arms more used to intimidate the other party?

NOTE not all party members were involved just a gang minority not leader driven. Just like in the case of German vs English soccer holligans fighting in the streets with knives/pipes after a game. Is it fair to blame the whole soccer club or the country involved? NO

They did not have a civil war with killing spree that night. Looks more like gang mentality not driven by the leaders. In fact the higher ups told them to stop it that night and the mob listened, also no one died that night AFAIK. I don't believe they are silly enough to kill each other with RPG and AK47 because they know they are just killing themselves.



The use of showing off guns to intimidate another political party makes no sense to me either but that is because I have been raised in very peaceful life in rich Canada.
On the other hand in a place where everything around you is in rubble of course the gun has a louder voice than an unarmed person. This happens all around in world politics eg many african countries. Mainly 3rd world


btw fatah and hamas do not see themselves quite as brothers anyhow. Hamas thinks fatah is corrupt and bribed by the USA, EU and even Israel by $ to keep on the nonexistent path of peace while Israel keeps unilateral decision making.

Hamas says no israel and no peace if they can't get their land back. Big difference there beteen the parties.
USA was hoping for Hamas to rewite its charter and tone down but so far it is not working which is sad.

[plymouthhater]

What puzzled me yesterday was the Fatah spokesperson being interviewed by CBS radio who said "since we lost the election, we will not participate in a Hamas government and we will now be joining our Alaksa Martyr's Brigade Brothers in actions against Israel. Watch closely, soon you will see".

So in otherwords, Israel now gets to experience an increase in terrorism because Fatah lost???? (I expect a bunch of responses from the regulars now, that will claim that Israel didn't make enough concessions to Fatah/PLO and that's the reason they lost the election). :lol: Seems to me most Palestinians voted for Hamas because of the corruption of Fatah.


http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_pa_corrupt.php

What about corruption in the Palestinian Authority in the territories they control?
Frankly, the Palestinian Authority, which is corrupt and cavorts with terror... is not the basis for a Palestinian state moving forward. [National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice, San Jose Mercury News, June 15, 2002]
Since its creation in 1994, Yasser Arafat's Palestinian Authority has presided over the collapse of the Palestinian economy. He was given billions in aid, and squandered what he and his cronies didn't steal. With GDP down nearly 70 percent, Palestinians have seen their collective national net worth reduced by more than two thirds. Virtually nothing remains of a once reasonably vibrant private sector. Corruption exists on a scale that even the normally approving Europeans cannot abide. Public infrastructure has disintegrated. Public health standards, in 1993 the highest in the Arab world, are among the lowest. And the disastrously self-destructive terrorist war against Israel that Arafat started in September 2000, has reduced Palestinians to the most desperate conditions they have seen since the creation of Israel in 1948.

Lawlessness in the Territories

Ahmad Tabouk. leader of the armed militia group Fatah Hawks, ruled Nablus after Israeli troops withdrew, as agreed under the Oslo Accords. Insisting that they were acting in the name of Arafat, they settled squabbles with the other militias by engaging in running street battles. But they came to specialize in gunning men down in broad daylight. They shoot lesser offenders - drug users or men accused of committing "moral" crimes - in the legs. They kill people who they believe have provided the Israeli army with information that has led to the death of wanted Palestinians. Palestinian gunmen killing so-called "collaborators" reached new high levels in 2002 in conjunction with Israel's Operation Defensive Shield against terrorist infrastructure in the territories.

Corrupt Administration of the Palestinian Authority
In addition to outright theft or misappropriation of funds, there is also faulty administration and a bloated public payroll. One of the chief consumers of funds in the chronically deficit-ridden Palestinian budget is the "police force" that exceeds 2% of the population, a size far above the limits imposed by the Oslo agreements, a force that is armed with weapons that are illegal under those agreements. Notwithstanding the large size and excessive armament of the force, it has not created the security environment that was its raison d'etre. In fact, the Palestinian police -- really Arafat's army -- are implicated in terrorism against Israel.

There are many documented reports of rampant corruption and misuse of funds within the Palestinian Authority and its related governmental bodies. For example, in 1997, the PA received $548,727,000 from the international donor community. It also received more than $800 million in tax revenues collected by Israel from Palestinian Arabs. At the end of 1997, when the PA released its annual financial report, $323 million - nearly 40% of the annual budget - was "missing." Yasser Arafat is believed to have personally benefited, possibly with billions of dollars flowing into personal accounts. Yet, the world community continues to make donations to Arafat's organizations in order to try to buy peace, a process that is usually called extortion. Arafat and his coterie of unofficial economic "advisors," in the words of David Hirst:

... have thrown up a ramshackle, nepotistic edifice of monopoly, racketeering and naked extortion, which merely enriches them as it further impoverishes the society at large.
The embezzlement of US taxpayer funding, on a vast scale, by Yasser Arafat and other members of the Palestinian Authority is detailed in the report "Corruption within the Palestinian Authority", referenced below.

An investigation by Newsweek in 2000, on the brink of the Camp David talks, revealed abuses at almost every level of the Palestinian Authority. Said Newsweek:

Many top ministers staff their offices with cronies, dole out valuable contracts without oversight and create their own monopolies, which crush competition and drive up prices paid by hard-pressed consumers. The courts are powerless because Arafat simply ignores any inconvenient rulings. His 14 separate police forces enforce the whims of PA officials rather than laws aimed at protecting ordinary Palestinians. "It's a mafia state," says Abdul Jawad Saleh, a former Agriculture minister who was beaten by security forces recently for leading an anticorruption protest.
Muhammad Rashid, Arafat's economic adviser, is vice president and one of the principle stockholders in Paltel, the monopoly set up by the PA and the Palestinian Development and Investment Co. (Padico) to run the telephone service.

In an investigative report from December 1998, The Financial Times reported that Rashid and Paltel were deeply involved in stealing the $160 million Gaza Employees Pension Fund, which was transferred to the PA by Israel in 1994 and emptied of its funds by Rashid between early 1996 and late 1997. Freih Abu Medein, the PA's justice minister told the paper at the time the money had been invested in telecommunications projects.

The Palestinian Mortgage Housing Corporation was involved in scandal in 1998, when the EU discovered that $20 million it had donated for the construction of low-cost housing in Gaza had been used instead to build luxury apartments for wealthy supporters of Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat.

After eight years of the Palestinian Authority, by 2000 the average Palestinian in the West Bank or Gaza had a lower income and worse condtions. It is possible that Arafat walked away from Camp David so he could continue to use Israel as a scapegoat rather than face the mounting problems of the Palestinians under his rule.


IMHO they look for any thing as an excuse to legitimize terrorist acts.