Copper Pipe soldering

[fakishan]

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/fakishan/copper.jpg

I was wondering if there is enough solder?

My first try with copper plumbing pipes and a blowtorch...in a hard to reach area (1 inch besides wall).

i'm afraid it will leak while i'm away....

applied flux on the outside of male pipe and inside of female pipe, both had been sanded to shine and any dust removed.

had to heat pipe three times to put all the solder.....overdone? oxidized?

[700mb80min]

overkill for sure .....its a tricky thing to do . both pieces should be heated evenly and the solder touched to one area of the joint. the solder will pull itself around the remaining areas to complete the seal. so you heat and touch the solder continously to the pipe as its melted around the pipe . you should`nt have to move the solder once its touched to the pipe .....clear as mud ?

[jed]

And have a rag ready next time to wipe excess solder - makes for a much neater job.

[steve.m]

you might for next time in a tight place try using a fireproof rag taped to the wall behind the pipe to avoid burning the wall if that happened to you.

I also noticed you did not say you sanded the pipe and fitting to shinny copper finish before applying the flux. You did that right with a bit of sandpaper or the metal wire tool?

click the video tab.
http://www.easy2diy.com/cm/easy/diy_ht_index.asp?page_id=35720496&parent=Task&child=Soldering&parent2=Brand

[fakishan]

thanks guys

[CheapScotsman]

As everybody has said above plus

a) You did a great job prepping ... just make sure there is NO water where you are about to solder (like just inside the vertical pipe)

b) Place either a REALLY wet rag on the wood behind OR a piece of bent sheet metal

c) I would have put the inside tip of the flame (the hottest part) right about 1/2 way up the cap on on side. Place the solder on the opposite side where the cap meets the pipe and when it starts to melt, "wipe" around the "rim" of the cap ... if the target is hot enough, the solder will get "sucked up" inside the pipe making a seal between the cap and the pipe

d) Use a WET rag to wipe all the excess solder off

e) Wait 5-10 minutes then turn the water on ... you will know pretty darn fast if it is leaking ... you can try and resolder but most of the time the water will get disipate the heat and you won't be able to add any additional solder. You will have to cut the cap off and do another one.

f) Use MAP gas, it burns hotter than propane.

g) When we go away for a couple of day, I usually turn the main water shutoff off ... no surprises when I get home (like water filling your basement for 2+ days).

[ans2]

[QUOTE=CheapScotsman]As everybody has said above plus

I would agree with "CheapScotsman".

I would only be guessing what you did. It looks to me that the copper pipe not hot enough and you melted the solder with the propane torch.

The solder should "never" come in direct contact with the flame on the propane torch. The copper pipe should be hot enough that it melts the solder when the solder is contacted with the copper pipe.

You need to make sure that there is no water in the vertical section of pipe. If there is water in the vertical section of the pipe, you will not be able to get the copper pipe hot enough to get a good solder.

Whenever I solder, I first close the water supply and leave open a faucet at the lower location than the pipe I intend to solder. If there is any valve close to where I am soldering, I either remove the valve stem or whatever to prevent burning/distorting the seals.

1. Drain line
2. Clean to shiny metal
3. Flux
4. Protect surrounding surfaces from fire
5. Heat general area on copper pipe with hottest part of flame.
6. Touch copper at joint area with solder. "Do not" melt the solder directly with the flame. You are not using the flame to directly melt the solder. The entire joint needs to be hot enough to melt the solder.
7. Continue to heat the copper joint from the opposite side of where you are applying the solder.
8.Once the copper is hot enough, the solder will melt and be sucked into the joint through capillary pressure.
9. After the joint is cool, wipe excess flux off with wet rag.
10. Pressure test for leaks.

You should be able to get the copper pipe hot enough to solder even with a propane torch. This could be a problem when you are soldering larger diameter copper pipe.

[mrmoe]

i just put new copper in from the meter to the entire house, and that is overkill.
when i solder around wood and wires i use a piece of sheet metal so nothing gets burned.

[stevethewheel]

Not bad for your first time, you did the right preparation steps and if you don't prepare right then the rest of the work is wasted.

The idea of the solder is to fill the very small gap between the male and female surfaces, the solder doesn't make a seal where you can see it (in other words blobbing solder around the cap would not do the job)

As others have said already you apply heat to the joint, then touch the solder to the edge and it will melt from the heat of the pipe, and be drawn into the joint area. I usually have the flame on the opposite side from the solder and it just wicks around. The solder will be attracted to the heat. You should not have to heat the joint more than once.

If you hear bubbling/hissing/popping and see any steam at the joint while you are doing the work, stop, let it cool, clean it up and do it over. It means there has been water contamination and you won't be able to patch up a bad joint without a lot of experience....even then it's touchy.

[sleepyguy]

excellent thread! definite tips on hanging onto here :)

[Kasakato]

Is "tinning" eg. melting solder to the female pipe before soldering still done? Im 13 and my dad says its not needed, but my grandfather says it the most important part. Who's right?

[mlc2000]

1. Drain line

I cannot re-enforce this more.
If theres water in the pipe, the pipe will not heat up enough
and the solder will never make a proper seal.


Something that was not mentioned anywhere here is compression fittings.
They are extremely easy to use and are inexpensive. I use them all the time !!

If you are soldering in a tight space, the air gets very hot quickly
and there's gonna be smoke setting off the fire alarm. Plus it can be a problem for people who are intimidated by the torch.

[ans2]

Perhaps its just the way I was taught, but once the solder gets up into the joint, I take more flux and put it on the joint while it's still hot.

Not sure if that's just wrong or what, but it does hold the connections firm. I was told the flux after helps force the solder up even more or something.

I have never done that nor have I ever read anywhere that you should put more flux onto the joint.

I also have never heard of anyone "tining" copper pipe. I guess I have now.
Some books refer to "soldering paste" as "self tining flux."

Soldering copper pipe is not the similar to welding. When you weld two pieces of metal together, there is no male and female piece. For example, you can weld two pieces of Aluminum plate together. The material that you use to weld the two pieces of Aluminum together is also Aluminum.

In the case of soldering copper pipe, you have a male and female piece. The solder flows between the very small gap between the two pieces and forms the bond. The solder is "not" molten copper but these days close to 100% tin. The molten solder is sucked into the small space through capillary forces.

People also solder copper wire onto circuit boards and add solder to twisted copper wire to increase the bond. But this is still not a welding process. I have never done this so I don't have any real experience with this. I understand that it is very important to "tin" the tip of the soldering iron. For obvious reasons you don't want to take a propane torch to a circuit board. And it is difficult to clean all the contact point to shiny bare metal prior to soldering. As I understand it, "tining" refers to cleaning the tip of the soldering iron to bare metal, heating the tip and then adding solder to the tip. So, you end up with a clean solder tip and clean solder. My recollection is that solder used for soldering circuit boards has a very small amount of flux in the core of the solder and is made of a silver alloy. I say recollection because I am not 100% certain about this and I am not about to take to visit to check this out at "Circuit City."

With respect to compression fittings.
Compressions fittings have been around for a long time. It would probably be quite expensive doing a whole house with copper pipe and compression fittings. But it is considerably more economical to use compression fittings if your alternative is to call and hire a plumber to make a small repair. For example, a pin hole leak in the middle of a run. Also, as pointed out by the previous poster, you can work in tight spaces without risking a fire. I personally do not like using compression fittings with the new plastic pipe. That is just a personal preference.

[deluxe10469]

When you put the flux on after soldering all your doing is cooling the seal. Its not sending the solder any deeper! In some cases it could be harming the seal by cooling it too quickly! The solder needs to cool down and pass a pasty point or it could create a crack in the seal. This mainly applies to bigger soldering jobs. A small copper pipe would cool fast enough that you wouldn't even notice that point when it is cooling.Unless you've heated the pipe to red hot! which is way too hot. When you apply the flux or water to cool the joint it should be done just above the joint not right on it for this reason.

Make sure both joints are clean before soldering like somebody said and also like somebody mentioned heat the pipe up apply the flux and just touch the solder to the joint and it should flow around the pipe and your good to go. When you are experienced enough there won't be any drips.

just my 2 cents!

[careh]

...and if you are installing a shower - after soldering be sure to cap off the threaded arm leading to the shower head & pressure test that section (turn the shower taps on).

I did not do that on a shower I was installing & closed up the wall - only to find out I had a pinhole leak in the solder joint just after the shower taps.

What a supreme pain to fix! >:(

[stealth]

Some good info here. esp. about making sure all the water is out of the pipe before soldering as it wont let the pipe get hot enough otherwise. also make sure the fitting area is "polished" with sand paper. pretty straight forward otherwise.

I have heard of tinning, but not sure when/why you should do it.

I've tried compression fittings, but hate them and will hopefully never use them again. Not sure why you say they're too expensive, in most cases all it is is a small ring that costs pennies.
I just cant seem to get the ideal tightness for them, always either too loose or too tight, so either way they leak. Soldering just isnt that hard I find.

[ans2]

I've tried compression fittings, but hate them and will hopefully never use them again. Not sure why you say they're too expensive, in most cases all it is is a small ring that costs pennies.
I just cant seem to get the ideal tightness for them, always either too loose or too tight, so either way they leak. Soldering just isnt that hard I find.

I also don't like compression fittings for the same reasons. If they are not tight enough they can blow off when you least expect it. That would leave quite a mess.

There are people who just do not feel comfortable with soldering. Just like there are some people who don't like replacing a defective electical breaker, an electrical recepticle or replacing a card in their computer. None of those tasks are difficult to do, if you know what you are doing.

So, for some people, using a repair technique that doesn't require a torch is preferable. If a person is repairing a single pin hole leak their alternatives are to (1) hire a plumber, (2) solder it themselves or (3) buy and repair using compression fittings. If they solder it them selves they first have to buy or borrow the tools. That is the propane torch, the solder and emery paper or equivalent. I suspect all of that would set a person back at least $15. A plumber will take 5 minutes to do the job. But they will charge a minimum of half an hour and most likely a service charge. That would cost a minimum of $30 and quite possibly $60. For some people, making the repair using compression fittings may still be the more economical alternative.

But I agree. I don't like compressin fittings either. For me, that would require me to make an extra visit to the hardware store. I know that I have a torch, solder and a limited supply of copper fittings. So, for me, the incremental cost might be fifty cents.

Getting back to the original posted question. The original poster did "not" say anywhere that he/she fluxed the joint prior to soldering. That may have been a missing step. I don't want to re post one of my previous postings but it is very important to "flux" the joint after it is polished and before soldering.

[thrifty1]

i did no see anyone mention "doughy white bread"

so...fyi...if you happen upon a run of pipe that won't completely drain (water off of course) try a tad of white bread (sans crust) stuffed up the pipe with a pencil, just before you solder

the bread will just wash out of the next tap in the line

just thought i'd add my bit

[Kasakato]

i did no see anyone mention "doughy white bread"

so...fyi...if you happen upon a run of pipe that won't completely drain (water off of course) try a tad of white bread (sans crust) stuffed up the pipe with a pencil, just before you solder

the bread will just wash out of the next tap in the line

just thought i'd add my bit
I did that! But for some reason it smells bad and I got little air bubbles.

[stevethewheel]

i did no see anyone mention "doughy white bread"



shhh. that's a trade secret.

Use Italian bread.