USA: Bullies of the world?

[najibs]

It seems as though the USA makes it seem that whatever they demand the world to do is the correct thing. Certain countries are not allowed to have nuclear bombs because they say so. When France refuses to go to Iraq they call them traitors. But yet, when it comes to making the world cleaner with the Kyoto protocol, they're not willing to support it because it will "slow down the economy"...what a bunch of BS! They always diss all the countries that go against them and somehow the white house always manages to justify it with a bunch of lies. The Iraq war, torturing prisoners, inhumane treatment of prisoners...etc...Even ex-President Bill Clinton is against what the current White House is up to. I admire Bill Clinton, he was a good president. He wasn't like Bush demanding war all the time. Ever since Clinton left office, the country went downhill. :mad:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/10/climate.conference.ap/index.html

I'm glad I'm a Canuck!

[Peter Pan]

"They hate us because they hate our freedom."

[Emancipated]

Freedom comes at a cost; unfortunately for the rest of the world, they have to bear the burden of the price.

This message has been brough to you by the coalition of we don't give a flying funk!

[poedua]

It seems as though the USA makes it seem that whatever they demand the world to do is the correct thing. Certain countries are not allowed to have nuclear bombs because they say so. When France refuses to go to Iraq they call them traitors. But yet, when it comes to making the world cleaner with the Kyoto protocol, they're not willing to support it because it will "slow down the economy"...what a bunch of BS! They always diss all the countries that go against them and somehow the white house always manages to justify it with a bunch of lies. The Iraq war, torturing prisoners, inhumane treatment of prisoners...etc...Even ex-President Bill Clinton is against what the current White House is up to. I admire Bill Clinton, he was a good president. He wasn't like Bush demanding war all the time. Ever since Clinton left office, the country went downhill. :mad:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/10/climate.conference.ap/index.html

I'm glad I'm a Canuck!

Nothing new.

Virtually everyone on RFD has ' no respect ' ........ though terms like reviled, despised, hated, contemptuous, maligned, mockery, detest, butchers, invaders, thugs, bullies, scum, war criminals, imperialists , animals, vicious, sadistic, infidels , "blood-sucking bastards" , "the louts of colonialism ", killers, " superpower of villains ", "wild donkeys", 'The children of pigs', "Sick dogs", "gangster Bush" ," drunken junkie nose of Bush" , those crooks, those mercenaries , "the insane little dwarf Bush",snakes in the desert, "the most despicable creatures." have also been used...........for the American administrations & military forces - of present and past ( WW 2, Vietnam , etc. ) ..with good reason.... in most cases.

This is just a guess mind you, but my hunch is when it comes to American foreign policy, the criticism & the rehtoric it fuels on RFD is easily ' 90% + '...... ' anti- american '.

Although, I have a sense most RFDers don't have a problem with the American citizens themselves.

[Spent]

Good one Peter Pan- must be a Daily Show fan, too ;)

Dead american soldiers total is now 2141 >:( to say nothing of the tens of thousands of innocent dead iraqis
Too bad some of the ignorant neo-cons that sent them there,
aren't dead too :evil: :mad:

[Ojam]

and between 15,000 and 48,000 wounded. Lets hope its the lower of the two, and they are all "minor" but even one "minor" injury is to many.

[poedua]

Good one Peter Pan- must be a Daily Show fan, too ;)

Dead american soldiers total is now 2141 >:( to say nothing of the tens of thousands of innocent dead iraqis
Too bad some of the ignorant neo-cons that sent them there,
aren't dead too :evil: :mad:

Does anyone know how many Iraqis have been killed so far ?

That state doesn't seem to get discussed nearly enough as it should...thos poor civiliansare the one's paying the geatest price in all of this IMO

Anyone know ?

[Ojam]

Does anyone know how many Iraqis have been killed so far ?

That state doesn't seem to get discussed nearly enough as it should...thos poor civiliansare the one's paying the geatest price in all of this IMO

Anyone know ?

Between 27,000 and 31,000

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

[gei]

The world was built by conquerors, not by whining babies.

Of course they can be bullies... they have the power to enforce whatever decisions they make (or impose on others).

[poedua]

Between 27,000 and 31,000

http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Thanks ...that's sickening...this war has to stop !

[poedua]

The world was built by conquerors, not by whining babies.

Of course they can be bullies... they have the power to enforce whatever decisions they make (or impose on others).


Conquerors such as ?

[Emancipated]

Conquerors such as ?


The Romans.

[gaurav_fhs]

In a way, like every other mega power, they are merely trying to maintain their dominance. Consider the following fact. By the end of the 2nd world war, America's GDP was half of Earth's! Today, that number is less than half that. (Mind you, I prefer measuring economic strength on PPP bases).

And being capitalistic (like many, maybe most, other countries), war is a smart way to gain income. As long as the average American remains significantly wealthier than his Asian, African or even European counterpart, the ultimate aim of pax Americana is sustained. Its a tug of war in a sense...each country is trying to increase the wealth of its citizens through economic practises, idealogy or partnerships.

Yes, they are bullies, but only because they need to be to be the best in the business. I, gave up on "world peace" and "one single human race" hippie thoughts a long time back. Although some moderation still keeps us human :lol:

Of course that doesnt mean other countries will go along with it or that this motion is "just" or "right". Each one of us strives to be the best in a field. And the best tries to stay that way!

Greed is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed cuts through, clarifies, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

[devious9191]

I have a hard time trying to figure out how you guys don't get tired of the anti-us bs threads... since they all say exactly the same thing, and conveniently ignore the fact that the US has probably done more 'good' internationally, than any other two countries combined.

Their people give more in charity than any other country.. the government spends more on foreign aid than any other country, and their military not only protects their own democracy, it protects ours, and tries to bring it to places that would otherwise be dictatorships.

So, I can appreciate the fact that some of you disagree with their foreign policy.. however, it's fair to say that they're the only country in the world that actually has a foreign policy that isn't hip deep in UN bureaucracy, to ***** about. And it isn't fair to say that everything they do is based solely on their own economy, as that simply isn't the case.

So, when you guys live in a country that goes out of their way to prevent genocide, remove dictatorship, and provide support for countries that can't support themselves.. maybe you could have some kind of claim to the moral high ground.. but when you live in a country that half the world probably couldn't even point at on a map, and has done nothing for anyone outside of our own borders, you really don't have a right to criticize the ones that do.

[wiggy]

Conquerors such as ?

The French under Napoleon.

The Spanish in the New World.

[wiggy]

I have a hard time trying to figure out how you guys don't get tired of the anti-us bs threads... since they all say exactly the same thing, and conveniently ignore the fact that the US has probably done more 'good' internationally, than any other two countries combined.

Yup. I'm with you. The Americans don't always make the right decision, but the world would be a helleva lot worse place without them.

[najibs]

I have a hard time trying to figure out how you guys don't get tired of the anti-us bs threads... since they all say exactly the same thing, and conveniently ignore the fact that the US has probably done more 'good' internationally, than any other two countries combined.

Their people give more in charity than any other country.. the government spends more on foreign aid than any other country, and their military not only protects their own democracy, it protects ours, and tries to bring it to places that would otherwise be dictatorships.

So, I can appreciate the fact that some of you disagree with their foreign policy.. however, it's fair to say that they're the only country in the world that actually has a foreign policy that isn't hip deep in UN bureaucracy, to ***** about. And it isn't fair to say that everything they do is based solely on their own economy, as that simply isn't the case.

So, when you guys live in a country that goes out of their way to prevent genocide, remove dictatorship, and provide support for countries that can't support themselves.. maybe you could have some kind of claim to the moral high ground.. but when you live in a country that half the world probably couldn't even point at on a map, and has done nothing for anyone outside of our own borders, you really don't have a right to criticize the ones that
do.

I mostly agree with you, but ever since Bush took office all that changed. It was the previous administrations that were the charitable ones and got the USA to be the world's superpower. It wasnt Mr. Bush who achieved that. All he's achieved is world anger against the USA, and anger from his own people. I lived in the states 2 different times, and I liked it there. Great people and all. No complaints about the American people in general. I'm just ticked off at the CURRENT administration running the white house and the country. Even their own people hate them. Whcih also leads me to wonder why the hell they voted for Bush in the first place...And back to my original topic, it was Bush who rejected Kyoto when he took office. Clinton would have gone with Kyoto if he was still the boss. No wonder Clinton was and still is admired by many. He is an example of a great American, and I don't just say that cuz of the Lewinski deal :D LOL

[hagbard]

I have a hard time trying to figure out how you guys don't get tired of the anti-us bs threads... since they all say exactly the same thing, and conveniently ignore the fact that the US has probably done more 'good' internationally, than any other two countries combined.

No.


Their people give more in charity than any other country.. the government spends more on foreign aid than any other country,

Back that up with facts. Bet you can't. Whatever aid they do give has strings attached. Just more empty American rhetoric.


and their military not only protects their own democracy, it protects ours,

From what?

and tries to bring it to places that would otherwise be dictatorships.

Replaces one dictatorhsip with another.

So, I can appreciate the fact that some of you disagree with their foreign policy.. however, it's fair to say that they're the only country in the world that actually has a foreign policy that isn't hip deep in UN bureaucracy, to ***** about. And it isn't fair to say that everything they do is based solely on their own economy, as that simply isn't the case.

So, when you guys live in a country that goes out of their way to prevent genocide, remove dictatorship, and provide support for countries that can't support themselves.. maybe you could have some kind of claim to the moral high ground.. but when you live in a country that half the world probably couldn't even point at on a map, and has done nothing for anyone outside of our own borders, you really don't have a right to criticize the ones that do.

yada yada yada.

[devious9191]

Well thank you for contributing. ;p Rather than monosyllables, why not argue the points? If you believe that another country has done more to prevent war, genocide and famine, feel free to name it..

Back that up with facts. Bet you can't. Whatever aid they do give has strings attached. Just more empty American rhetoric.

As far as I know, this is common knowledge.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs

Those charts show government foreign aid.

There are over 1 million registered charities in the United States. Bill Gates alone probably donates more money to charity than the aggregate amount of many small countries.

[gaurav_fhs]

No.

Hagbard, in essence, you are in **mostly** with a dominant power or you are **mostly** opposed to a dominant power. (Close to what Dubya put it ;) )

The wiggle room you get in conflict of interests depends on your power and your relationship with the dominant power. Look at the Israeli arms export to China. America is so close to Israel, and yet it threatened it with sanctions if the deal went ahead. A similar conflict of interest between Canada and the US on the softwood issue.

They are bullies because their luck, hard work and risk-taking has allowed them to be in such an advantageous position. In essence, I would argue they are a "better" (ie. for humanity as a whole) super power than their predecessors including the British.

Of course that does not mean I support every decision an American leader makes because it may not be advantageous to my position

[purple_rabbit]

Nothing new.

Virtually everyone on RFD has ' no respect ' ...

This is just a guess mind you, but my hunch is when it comes to American foreign policy, the criticism & the rehtoric it fuels on RFD is easily ' 90% + '...... ' anti- american '.

Although, I have a sense most RFDers don't have a problem with the American citizens themselves.

Respect is something you earn. Obviously if the general sentiment is of disrespect, there are reasons for it. I could write a book about it, but then again, we can b*tch as much as we want, there is nothing we can do about it.

The Americans I've met are good people, its just the leaders who are ...well fill in the blank :)

[wiggy]

The world can be a brutal place. Look at Jimmy Carter. He tried to run a moral and decent presidency and he got eaten for breakfast.

Bush's just scraped his way in and then his presidency was immediately hijacked by 9/11. While I don't think he would have made a great president (probably not even a good one), his tenure could have been quite different. I think that, regardless, he's too deep in hock to corporate America and too beholden to the Christian right to really serve the country effectively.

The guy who really scares the sh*t out of me is his veep Chaney. That guy is out of control. He's got too much of Machiavelli in him and spends way too much time in the shadows doing who knows what for who knows who. If Bush steps in it and Chaney ends up in the lead chair then it'll really hit the fan.

There's way too much happening in the background that we proles don't know about. How'd you like to get the special secret briefing on the first day of the job and suddenly realize just what the hell you've got yourself into.

[gaurav_fhs]

There's way too much happening in the background that we proles don't know about.
:cheesygri

[poedua]

No.




Back that up with facts. Bet you can't. Whatever aid they do give has strings attached. Just more empty American rhetoric.



From what?



Replaces one dictatorhsip with another.



yada yada yada.

Seems most agree..the Americans are the epitome of ' evil ' personified...the worst 'scourge' to beseige humankind since time began.

But, just to show other RFDers you can see both sides of an issue and that you're not totally myopic in your thinking , a 100 % ' negative filter toward the U.S. Try this.

Looking back on the last 100 years..... can you list 5 or 6 notable accomplishments the U.S. has contributed for the benefit of mankind ......be it in foreign policy , science or technology ? And what is the most admirable thing you like about the U.S. ?

Let's face it, the Americans have helped 'just a little bit' to the betterment of mankind. Those 'demonic', killers, invaders, infidels as they are, Americans have , nonetheless, invented / discovered / developed a couple of 'trivial ' things . that for reasons i can't understand, most folks in either Iraq, Iran, China use and seem to enjoy .............

The Internet ( that you're enjoying right now ! )
The PC
The Microprocessor
MRI
Communications satellite
Polio vaccine
Laser
Birth Control Pill
Airplane
Helicopter
Nuclear reactor (Iran loves this one )
Microwave oven
Air conditioning
Those are all I can remember for now off the top of my head

So is there anything else you think we should be thankful to the Americans for - 5 or 6 examples should do ?

Oops ...forgot one more American contribution to culture...Seinfeld...yada yada yada !

[ronin893]

As far as I know, this is common knowledge.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs

Those charts show government foreign aid.

There are over 1 million registered charities in the United States. Bill Gates alone probably donates more money to charity than the aggregate amount of many small countries.
Even the link you provided says that there are strings attached (as Hagbard stated.)
Recent increases [in foreign aid] do not tell the whole truth about rich countries’ generosity, or the lack of it. Measured as a proportion of gross national income (GNI), aid lags far behind the 0.7 percent target the United Nations set 35 years ago. Moreover, development assistance is often of dubious quality. In many cases,

* Aid is primarily designed to serve the strategic and economic interests of the donor countries;
* Or [aid is primarily designed] to benefit powerful domestic interest groups;
* Aid systems based on the interests of donors instead of the needs of recipients’ make development assistance inefficient;
* Too little aid reaches countries that most desperately need it; and,
* All too often, aid is wasted on overpriced goods and services from donor countries.

— Pekka Hirvonen, Stingy Samaritans; Why Recent Increases in Development Aid Fail to Help the Poor, Global Policy Forum, August 2005

Furthermore, as a percentage of GNI (Gross National Income) the US ranks 21st in the list of top 22 countries. You've only showed that the US is stingy.

[Danilow Candy]

Thank you for sharing your revelation with us. Was it cathartic for you to state the obvious? Keep this in mind, though, if it weren't for your best friend, the U.S of A, that crazy Chinese general / defense minister would be roasting you right about now.

[gei]

Respect is something you earn. Obviously if the general sentiment is of disrespect, there are reasons for it.

Not necessarily. It's natural to hate the people at the top. For example, most people don't particularly like their boss... thats just life.

America is by far the most powerful country in the world... in terms of anything and everything (military, economy, etc). That status must have been earned somehow.

[gaurav_fhs]

Thank you for sharing your revelation with us. Was it cathartic for you to state the obvious? Keep this in mind, though, if it weren't for your best friend, the U.S of A, that crazy Chinese general / defense minister would be roasting you right about now.
Again, they'd be doing what they thought was best for their progress. Foreign policies are dynamic. There is no black/white. I think, Canada has done a remarkable job vis-a-vis its hyper power neighbour. It also helps that we've been blessed with such a bountiful land and peaceful frontiers.

Canada and Canadians must like all other nations strive to do what it thinks is best for itself. Every decision must be taken after considering what is best for herself, and her "allies" at that moment of time.

[poedua]

Thank you for sharing your revelation with us. Was it cathartic for you to state the obvious? Keep this in mind, though, if it weren't for your best friend, the U.S of A, that crazy Chinese general / defense minister would be roasting you right about now.

The U.S. is the world's cop.

I wish the U.S. could one day decide to tell the rest of the world, " we've had enought of being dumped on ... go ' stick it ...you're on your own " - and they never again ventured beyond it's borders again or meddled with other countries politics & business ...can't say I'd blame them at all.

Another superpower would likely step in to fill the void...imagine China or N Korea stepping up to the plate to ' spread communism ' ( or nukes ) around the world with an invasion here or there...or Iran, or N Korea or Russia running amuck .... without anyone else to keep them honest. Iran would nuke Israel, and Israel would do the same, Iraq and Iran would go at it and the Middle East would implode ...and so would India and Pakistan being eyeing each other, Russia would likley wish to expand it's control too and who knows what N Korea would do.

Who's step up and be the world's cop ? No one ?

If not ( another super-power stepping up ) - it'd be a global ' free for all " for other countries to fight their own fights and act as beligerant as they want...and within mere decades , the entire world be in a global bloodbath IMO.

In that scenario, the U.S. would end up getting the last laugh IMO.

[poedua]

Not necessarily. It's natural to hate the people at the top. For example, most people don't particularly like their boss... thats just life.

America is by far the most powerful country in the world... in terms of anything and everything (military, economy, etc). That status must have been earned somehow.

For example....China has been around for a hell of a lot longer than the U.S.( a mere 250 years or so ) ...but it's the U.S. who has made the most advances this century....going to the moon is but one a good example...and, you're right they've earned most of their domestic success ( discoveries /inventions/ developments ) due to brains and hard work ....no other country comes even close...makes you wonder why other countries aren't as prolific.

[devious9191]

Even the link you provided says that there are strings attached (as Hagbard stated.)

There should be strings attached.. as was shown in Oil for Food, and is shown every time money goes towards Africa or NK. Giving money to governments that rule by the size of their military, doesn't ever get to the people that are suffering from famine and disease. Fortunately, I get the impression that due to media attention on these issues, there will be more strings attached any time a government gives out dollars to foreign governments.

Furthermore, as a percentage of GNI (Gross National Income) the US ranks 21st in the list of top 22 countries. You've only showed that the US is stingy.

No, I've shown that the US gives more absolute dollars than any other country. Therefore, they've given 'more' than any other country, which was my original statement. The US has given something like 300 billion dollars in foreign aid dollars since WW2, and the world is in the same (or worse) state than it was in before. Do you think 600 billion dollars would make a difference? Until responsible governments can be *put into these countries that are suffering from widespread famine and disease, the money isn't being put to use anyways.

[jonno]

Even ex-President Bill Clinton is against what the current White House is up to. I admire Bill Clinton, he was a good president. He wasn't like Bush demanding war all the time. Ever since Clinton left office, the country went downhill. :mad:


In Bush's defence wtf did you expect him to do? I'm definitely not a Bush lover, not even close, but he was put into a tough situation.. There was an attack by a foreign country on US soil, this hasn't happened since and Pearl Harbour.. This war is the reprocussion to it.. wtf do you think Bush is going to do to stay in power? The people demand action for killing US citizens on US soil.. Even if he didn't want to goto war it had to be done..

If there was an attack on Canadian soil by a foreign country then I'm sure most Canadians would want something done about it..

Saying Clinton was a better president may be true, but do you think a terrorist attack killing thousands of US citizens by a foreign country would have just been forgotten if Clinton was President? I bet there still would have been similar reprocussions..

Sure you can tell me that the US planned this attack on themselves and it's all about the oil.. I'm quite the conspiracy theorist too, but conspiracy is conspiracy, I'm talking facts provided by the (US filtered) news.. You just can't win in this day and age against the media

[Ojam]

In Bush's defence wtf did you expect him to do? I'm definitely not a Bush lover, not even close, but he was put into a tough situation.. There was an attack by a foreign country on US soil, this hasn't happened since and Pearl Harbour.. This war is the reprocussion to it.. wtf do you think Bush is going to do to stay in power? The people demand action for killing US citizens on US soil.. Even if he didn't want to goto war it had to be done..

If there was an attack on Canadian soil by a foreign country then I'm sure most Canadians would want something done about it..

Saying Clinton was a better president may be true, but do you think a terrorist attack killing thousands of US citizens by a foreign country would have just been forgotten if Clinton was President? I bet there still would have been similar reprocussions..

Sure you can tell me that the US planned this attack on themselves and it's all about the oil.. I'm quite the conspiracy theorist too, but conspiracy is conspiracy, I'm talking facts provided by the (US filtered) news.. You just can't win in this day and age against the media

A foreign country did NOT attack the United States; individuals representing their own interests outside the bounds of a Nation state attacked them. There is a MAJOR difference in the two.

[najibs]

In Bush's defence wtf did you expect him to do? I'm definitely not a Bush lover, not even close, but he was put into a tough situation.. There was an attack by a foreign country on US soil, this hasn't happened since and Pearl Harbour.. This war is the reprocussion to it.. wtf do you think Bush is going to do to stay in power? The people demand action for killing US citizens on US soil.. Even if he didn't want to goto war it had to be done..

If there was an attack on Canadian soil by a foreign country then I'm sure most Canadians would want something done about it..

Saying Clinton was a better president may be true, but do you think a terrorist attack killing thousands of US citizens by a foreign country would have just been forgotten if Clinton was President? I bet there still would have been similar reprocussions..

Sure you can tell me that the US planned this attack on themselves and it's all about the oil.. I'm quite the conspiracy theorist too, but conspiracy is conspiracy, I'm talking facts provided by the (US filtered) news.. You just can't win in this day and age against the media

Most Americans realize that the Iraq war is like a Vietnam. It can never be won. Terrorists will always be around. So why not spend all that war money INSIDE the USA to develop anti-terrorist defences internally. Money better spent and American soldiers won't be dying. I'm sure on Sept 11th everyone wanted war, but now they all realize that victory can neveer be trully declared. There are terrorists in every country...what are ya gonna do...go attack every country in which they hide? That would mean attacking England, France, etc...

[hagbard]

Well thank you for contributing. ;p Rather than monosyllables, why not argue the points? If you believe that another country has done more to prevent war, genocide and famine, feel free to name it..



As far as I know, this is common knowledge.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp#ForeignAidNumbersinChartsandGraphs

Those charts show government foreign aid.

There are over 1 million registered charities in the United States. Bill Gates alone probably donates more money to charity than the aggregate amount of many small countries.

your link hardly justifies your position, now does it? and pvt charity is not foreign aid. common knowledge does not equal facts.

[hagbard]

There should be strings attached.. as was shown in Oil for Food, and is shown every time money goes towards Africa or NK. Giving money to governments that rule by the size of their military, doesn't ever get to the people that are suffering from famine and disease. Fortunately, I get the impression that due to media attention on these issues, there will be more strings attached any time a government gives out dollars to foreign governments.




when the us gives aid, it is to benefit favored corps, like Halliburton, not for the benefit of recipent countries. its been this way 4 a very long time.

[poedua]

when the us gives aid, it is to benefit favored corps, like Halliburton, not for the benefit of recipent countries. its been this way 4 a very long time.


hagbard.....welcome back....you never answered my question form post #24...you must have forgot. here it is again....

" just to show other RFDers you can see both sides of an issue and that you're not totally myopic in your thinking , a 100 % ' negative filter toward the U.S. Try this.

Looking back on the last 100 years..... can you list 5 or 6 notable accomplishments the U.S. has contributed for the benefit of mankind ......be it in foreign policy , science or technology ? And what is the most admirable thing you like about the U.S. ?"

Welcome your thoughts.

[blackhawk]

Human nature, you want daddy's money, power, support and perceived freedom but not his responsibility.

Its easier to criticize from the stands than play the game.

[poedua]

Human nature, you want daddy's money, power, support and perceived freedom but not his responsibility.

Its easier to criticize from the stands than play the game.

Well said

[Imagine]

If there was an attack on Canadian soil by a foreign country then I'm sure most Canadians would want something done about it..


Canadians are soft , they wouldnt retaliate ... besides arent most foreigners living in Canada .

[hagbard]

hagbard.....welcome back....you never answered my question form post #24...you must have forgot. here it is again....

" just to show other RFDers you can see both sides of an issue and that you're not totally myopic in your thinking , a 100 % ' negative filter toward the U.S. Try this.

Looking back on the last 100 years..... can you list 5 or 6 notable accomplishments the U.S. has contributed for the benefit of mankind ......be it in foreign policy , science or technology ? And what is the most admirable thing you like about the U.S. ?"

Welcome your thoughts.

I'm not here to praise Caesar, I'm here to bury him.

[poedua]

I'm not here to praise Caesar, I'm here to bury him.

You can't 'praise' the U.S. because you can't IMO. But, you've missed the point...it seems you're having a tough time understanding my question. I don't want judgment calls of praise or scorn. I simply want to see if you can provide me examples of great U.S. achiements that have benefited all, of mankind...simple objective historical facts...like the invention of the PC & internet that you're using this read this very sentence ) ....both of them , brought to you courtesy of the good 'ol U.S of A. :cool:

I can only draw one conclusion. You're unable to be objective about U.S. history and be mature enough to acknowledge what ' good ' they've accomplished as a nation ( along with the bad ) ...you're unable to identify even ONE or TWO positive contriubtions the Yanks have provided for the benefit of mankind in over 250 years.......for ONLY one reason that I can conclude....you have 'no clue' about U.S. history, culture and science and discovery in any way ...you're totally ignorant or naive or have a profoundly immature understanding of U.S. history...or all 3.

So, when I asked you this question........

" just to show other RFDers you can see both sides of an issue and that you're not totally myopic in your thinking , a 100 % ' negative filter toward the U.S. ........Try this. Looking back on the last 100 years..... can you list 5 or 6 notable accomplishments the U.S. has contributed for the benefit of mankind ......be it in foreign policy , science or technology ? And what is the most admirable thing you like about the U.S. ?"

......I made a mistake.......I actually thought you knew something of U.S. history...it's obvious you don't...on this topic...you know squat.

Because, as I stated above, if you actually DID know U.S. history and still refuse " to show other RFDers you can see both sides of an issue and that you're not totally myopic in your thinking " by providing positive evidence of their contributions to mankind........well then.......you're simply enagaging in ' anti - american ' progaganda.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.......list 5 or 6 notable accomplishments the U.S. has contributed for the benefit of mankind ....5 or 6 out out of 250 or so years is a piece of cake.......in fact, a piece of cake even for my 11 year old...( actually he only gave me 4 accomplishments earlier this afternoon when I asked him ) ...but then again, the kids' only 11 ! :)

[hagbard]

You can't 'praise' the U.S. because you can't IMO. But, you've missed the point...it seems you're having a tough time understanding my question. I don't want judgment calls of praise or scorn. I simply want to see if you can provide me examples of great U.S. achiements that have benefited all, of mankind...simple objective historical facts...like the invention of the PC & internet that you're using this read this very sentence ) ....both of them , brought to you courtesy of the good 'ol U.S of A. :cool:

I can only draw one conclusion. You're unable to be objective about U.S. history and be mature enough to acknowledge what ' good ' they've accomplished as a nation ( along with the bad ) ...you're unable to identify even ONE or TWO positive contriubtions the Yanks have provided for the benefit of mankind in over 250 years.......for ONLY one reason that I can conclude....you have 'no clue' about U.S. history, culture and science and discovery in any way ...you're totally ignorant or naive or have a profoundly immature understanding of U.S. history...or all 3.

So, when I asked you this question........

" just to show other RFDers you can see both sides of an issue and that you're not totally myopic in your thinking , a 100 % ' negative filter toward the U.S. ........Try this. Looking back on the last 100 years..... can you list 5 or 6 notable accomplishments the U.S. has contributed for the benefit of mankind ......be it in foreign policy , science or technology ? And what is the most admirable thing you like about the U.S. ?"

......I made a mistake.......I actually thought you knew something of U.S. history...it's obvious you don't...on this topic...you know squat.

Because, as I stated above, if you actually DID know U.S. history and still refuse " to show other RFDers you can see both sides of an issue and that you're not totally myopic in your thinking " by providing positive evidence of their contributions to mankind........well then.......you're simply enagaging in ' anti - american ' progaganda.

Go ahead, prove me wrong.......list 5 or 6 notable accomplishments the U.S. has contributed for the benefit of mankind ....5 or 6 out out of 250 or so years is a piece of cake.......in fact, a piece of cake even for my 11 year old...( actually he only gave me 4 accomplishments earlier this afternoon when I asked him ) ...but then again, the kids' only 11 ! :)

You miss my point, I don't care about their "positive contributions", their negatives far outweigh them. Ask the native Americans how they liked with the US did for them, or the million plus Filipinos and Cubans who died at the hands of Americans following the Spanish-American war, or the million plus Vietnamese who died from the contribution of the Americans in the 60s and early 70s. Or US interventions in the Arab world. Their development of nuclear weapons. Need I go on? You go ahead and push the pro-American propaganda, we've all heard it before.

[poedua]

You miss my point, I don't care about their "positive contributions", their negatives far outweigh them. Ask the native Americans how they liked with the US did for them, or the million plus Filipinos and Cubans who died at the hands of Americans following the Spanish-American war, or the million plus Vietnamese who died from the contribution of the Americans in the 60s and early 70s. Or US interventions in the Arab world. Their development of nuclear weapons. Need I go on? You go ahead and push the pro-American propaganda, we've all heard it before.

Thank you...you just proved my point !

Tell you what , I'll make this so dead simple for you even a 6 year old could do it....now keep in mind ...all I need from you is a one word answer........YES.......... or.......... NO.

Would you agree that the following American inventions have had a positive and significant impact toward the 'betterment' and advancement of mankind ....

The Internet

The PC

The Microprocessor

MRI

Communications satellite

Polio vaccine

Laser

Airplane




YES or NO ?

.

[Kasie1]

I have followed this thread with a great deal of interest!! I am fully prepared to be drawn and quartered, spat at or at the very least, told " Yankee go home!!"
I am a landed immigrant in Canada, now over 30 years! I am a citizen of the hated "U.S.A." as well. When I first came to Canada, I was totally unprepared for the hatred for, the jealousy of and that it appeared to be my personal responsibilty of all things American and this was after a year living and going to school in South America. I found it difficult to accept that my husband(Canadian) thought we would have a better life here in his hometown. Even my marriage went through tough times because I am an U.S. citizen.(lol) in-laws and stuff! When I applied for a job as a journeyman because I had served my apprenticeship, I was asked male or female? Say what? Now my skin is much tougher and after this limited background, will give my opinion on the U.S. being bullies. No!! We are not bullies but kind of the black sheep of the western world. When someone else decides there is a world problem, it gets tossed to the U. S. to deal with and as long as there isn't any bloodshed, or bombs and destruction, it will be regarded as a good thing that the U. S. has done. Of course this scenario is far and few between and a lot of sorting outof problems is not nice. This will then be regarded as a very bad thing the U. S. has done, is doing or will do!! I truly believe the U.S. tries to do the right thing for the people world wide but would be better off as a nation to stay concerned with just their own country. No one can fix the problems of humanity!! We only have limited power in our own lives. I have used my Yankee innovative, imagination to start up a parent run milk program in school, a parent run tutor program, helped to set up a savings program for school's future when playground equipment needs repair or replacement, helped to educate parents and school why the schoolyard should be fenced ( we are on the TransCanada), lobbied to have a least a flashing held hand stop sign for the crosswalk(which we have now) and have been and still am a Girl Guide leader for over 10 years, teaching the young girls to sing O Canada with pride and to learn about this wonderful country we live in! I am at heart a native wannabe and have learned quilling, beading, leather work and taught this in school as an Options. I have learned a great deal about native heritage and weave this into the classes. I also make a mean bannock! I have taught heritage skills like butter making, jam making and sewing. Does this seem off topic? I see it as an ordinary human being doing what they can to enjoy and help others to enjoy this life we have. Does this make me anymore of a bully than the Canadians I involve along with me? Are there not things to do in Canada to make this a better place to live without dwelling on is the U.S. of A. the big bad wolf? I believe so and no, I am not a Canadian.. I am an American!! Kasie1 :)

[hagbard]

Thank you...you just proved my point !

Tell you what , I'll make this so dead simple for you even a 6 year old could do it....now keep in mind ...all I need from you is a one word answer........YES.......... or.......... NO.

Would you agree that the following American inventions have had a positive and significant impact toward the 'betterment' and advancement of mankind ....

The Internet

The PC

The Microprocessor

MRI

Communications satellite

Polio vaccine

Laser

Airplane




YES or NO ?

.

You enjoy missing the obvious. I don't care. Suppose we should be praising the Nazis for giving us rocket ships?

[65505201]

You enjoy missing the obvious. I don't care. Suppose we should be praising the Nazis for giving us rocket ships?

My knowledge of rocket propulsion development with regards to Nazis is courtesy of video games such as RTCW. Hell, I've learned more about WW2 from video games than from history books. That said, the Nazi scientists were on the cutting edge by the end of WW2, right? Isn't that partly why the Americans and the Soviets were racing (with each other) to Berlin so they can capture military and scientific intelligence?

Praising isn't quite the right word. However, their scientific/technical superiority is something that should be acknowledged. Also, I'm no history buff, but the effectiveness (and eventual failure) of the blitzkrig (sp?) (in Soviet Union) contains lessons that can be applied to military tactics.

Now, before you go all ballistic on me, let me say that the philosophies of Nazi's leave much to be desired. However, you can't simply ignore their scientific and technical contributions simply because of their politics and policies.

[65505201]

You miss my point, I don't care about their "positive contributions", their negatives far outweigh them.


Sounds oddly familiar...I hope you're not watching any 'training' videos.


Ask the native Americans how they liked with the US did for them, or the million plus Filipinos and Cubans who died at the hands of Americans following the Spanish-American war, or the million plus Vietnamese who died from the contribution of the Americans in the 60s and early 70s. Or US interventions in the Arab world. Their development of nuclear weapons. Need I go on? You go ahead and push the pro-American propaganda, we've all heard it before.

Native Americans: Meh. Are we that much better?
Vietnamese: Kinda sucks being caught between two superpowers, eh?
Nuclear Weapons: Well, considering that the scientific advancement was inevitable, I'd rather that the States be the first to develop working models.

BTW, hagbard, your hate of an entire nation and her people would be somewhat amusing if it wasn't so sad.

[asim99]

You enjoy missing the obvious. I don't care. Suppose we should be praising the Nazis for giving us rocket ships?

well said

[asim99]

Nuclear Weapons: Well, considering that the scientific advancement was inevitable, I'd rather that the States be the first to develop working models.

in case you didn't notice, they didn't just develop nuclear weapons, they went crazy and actually used them

[devious9191]

in case you didn't notice, they didn't just develop nuclear weapons, they went crazy and actually used them

You could easily debate that the loss of life from not using them would have surpassed that of using them.

[65505201]

in case you didn't notice, they didn't just develop nuclear weapons, they went crazy and actually used them

I wouldn't say crazy. The problem with war is that it is a savage competition at its very core. When its an all out war, it sucks to be the weaker country.

Pros:
Saved American lives.
Conclusively ended the war.
Collateral damage isn't a concern since the US wasn't looking to occupy Japan anyhow.
Demonstrated the US's destructive capability to keep the emerging communist threat at bay.

Cons:
Many Japanese civilian casualties. (But to be honest...as the president, why would you care if the civvies will pick up a weapon and attack your soldiers?)
Opened up a whole new type of warfare (MAD).

[hagbard]

I wouldn't say crazy. The problem with war is that it is a savage competition at its very core. When its an all out war, it sucks to be the weaker country.

Pros:
Saved American lives.
Conclusively ended the war.


A myth. Japan was prepared to surrender, they just wouldn't surrender unconditionally. All they wanted was for their emperor to be spared, which he was anyway. The Japanese knew how barbaric the Americans were before the dropped the bomb(s), such as the American solder's hobby of collecting trophy skulls made from Japanese solder's heads and sending them to their girlfriends back home. This was carried on throughout the Vietnam war as well.

http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/2002/Mar/skull1.jpg
Life Magazine 1943

[devious9191]

A myth. Japan was prepared to surrender, they just wouldn't surrender unconditionally. All they wanted was for their emperor to be spared, which he was anyway. The Japanese knew how barbaric the Americans were before the dropped the bomb(s), such as the American solder's hobby of collecting trophy skulls made from Japanese solder's heads and sending them to their girlfriends back home. This was carried on throughout the Vietnam war as well.

http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/2002/Mar/skull1.jpg
Life Magazine 1943

The Japanese were worried about how 'barbaric' the Americans were during WW2... well that's the first time I've heard that argument.

Ever heard of Nanking? 300,000 chinese soldiers and civilians slaughtered, and 20,000 women raped?

Almost 50,000 Americans were captured and interned at Japanese POW camps, where more than 1/3 of them died. Whereas in Germany, less than 2% of POWs were killed, and just over 1% in the US.

[hagbard]

I'm sure the US occupation of the Philippines was much less barbaric:


http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/toread/killeveryone.jpg
"Kill every one over ten." - Gen. Jacob H. Smith

The list goes on, starting with their native populations up to the present day. No one claims that the Japanese where "nice guys", but an awful lot do say that of the Americans, they aren't.

[65505201]

A myth. Japan was prepared to surrender, they just wouldn't surrender unconditionally. All they wanted was for their emperor to be spared, which he was anyway. The Japanese knew how barbaric the Americans were before the dropped the bomb(s), such as the American solder's hobby of collecting trophy skulls made from Japanese solder's heads and sending them to their girlfriends back home. This was carried on throughout the Vietnam war as well.

http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/2002/Mar/skull1.jpg
Life Magazine 1943

I've heard of that as well. However, not surrendering unconditionally is as good as not surrendering at all. The loser is really in no position to make any demands when they were anhilating others in the first place.

About American barbarism, war isn't fun. It trauamtizes solders of all nationalities and in different ways. Mailing back skules is pretty fcuked up, but the Japanese were no less guilty.

[65505201]

I'm sure the US occupation of the Philippines was much less barbaric:


http://www.radioislam.org/islam/english/toread/killeveryone.jpg
"Kill every one over ten." - Gen. Jacob H. Smith

The list goes on, starting with their native populations up to the present day. No one claims that the Japanese where "nice guys", but an awful lot do say that of the Americans, they aren't.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bataan/sfeature/sf_philippines.html#q5

It was a very bloody war -- a lot of atrocities on both sides.

Note that Smith was later court matrialed and retired from the military. Now, if he got a medal and was promoted (i.e. government approves of his policies), then your argument using Smith is a valid one.

Anyhow, you know, bringing up stuff that happened in the past isn't really going to help anything. ALL countries will have their own blemishes in their history. However, times are different. Different people, different culture, different values.

[hagbard]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/bataan/sfeature/sf_philippines.html#q5

It was a very bloody war -- a lot of atrocities on both sides.

Note that Smith was later court matrialed and retired from the military. Now, if he got a medal and was promoted (i.e. government approves of his policies), then your argument using Smith is a valid one.

Anyhow, you know, bringing up stuff that happened in the past isn't really going to help anything. ALL countries will have their own blemishes in their history. However, times are different. Different people, different culture, different values.

Howabout genocide and slavery then?

[65505201]

Howabout genocide and slavery then?

Genocide: Are you referring to the natives?
Slavery: I thought the South lost the war...

Like I said, digging through history, referencing to atrocities carried out by completely different people will get you nowhere. If you want to play that game, you may as well live in outer space. EVERY country has done something bad in their past.

If I was like you, then I would spit and beat the crap out of every Japanese (WWII) and British (Pre-Opium war) person that I see, despite that fact that I have not suffered through these injustices and my targets have not perpetrated any of these atrocities.

Now...if the current and recently current administration is commiting genocide and slavery, then I will probably side with you on your hate-on for the US. Even then, you can only legitimately hate 1/2 of the population. The other half are unwilling partners.

[toalan]

If there is one word that defines Amercia it is "Hypocrite".

Supporters say that US is the only one with ballz to "do the right thing"

I say this:

The US is so willing to send in troops and take over an oil rich nation with almost no good reason other than the fact that Saddam was a dickhead. But look at concreate cases of genocide around the world; Serbia,Africa, etcc... In those cases in which the US should have more motivation to do good how come they did not pursue with such vigor as they did with IRAQ?

Personally I think the last time the US did anything to protect the interests of humanity was at the end of WW2, and even then they did not give a **** until they got hit.

The US talks so much about the freedom of democracy the respect for life in America, but once you are not american you can be treated like ****. I had a conversation with a friend who was in the US army, he told me that all Muslims are evil and that they would kill every american if they had the chance. i can see exactly why muslims would want to destroy the US if their attitude is like that.

The average american citizen is a bit ignorant a bit bigheaded but they have alot of patriotism, they believe their government is telling the truth and they love the president. It is such ashame that the government so corrupt and tells only half truths to its citizens. But ignorance is bliss and the american public is living in bliss.

America is not a democracy, democracy is more than having the option of voting for 2 or more people. Democracy lives and dies based on having objective news organizations so that everyone is well informed about the reality of the situation. If a voter is only told lies then obviously his vote will be skewed, is it really any different than have no choice at all?

[z0z0]

I am Canadian but I love America!

Thank you America for helping Europe fight the Germans in WW1 and WW2 - if it wasn't for you Britain and France would have lost the war.

Thank you America for standing up to the Soviets. If it wasn't for you a lot of Europeans would be speaking Russian today.

Tahnk you America for taking a stand against fundamentalist theocratic authoritarianism (terrorism).

America might not be perfect - no society ever is. But America stands for a free and pluralistic society.

Then think of it this way - did anyone really like the Romans when they were a superpower? No - but Rome civilized the world. Did anyone like Britain when they were a superpower? No but they greatly improved the living standards of the people that were a part of the Empire.

It is not a perfect world but America is the best we got.

Everyone that hates America is just jealous of America.

Any Canadian that hates America should realize that who we are and out standard of living is dependant upon America.

Get over the childish jealousy.

As for democracy - ha ha ha - do we have one in Canada? We have a Liberal dictarship and the dictatorship freely given by the stupid majority that falls for being bought.

[Imagine]

I am Canadian but I love America!

Thank you America for helping Europe fight the Germans in WW1 and WW2 - if it wasn't for you Britain and France would have lost the war.

Thank you America for standing up to the Soviets. If it wasn't for you a lot of Europeans would be speaking Russian today.

Tahnk you America for taking a stand against fundamentalist theocratic authoritarianism (terrorism).

America might not be perfect - no society ever is. But America stands for a free and pluralistic society.

Then think of it this way - did anyone really like the Romans when they were a superpower? No - but Rome civilized the world. Did anyone like Britain when they were a superpower? No but they greatly improved the living standards of the people that were a part of the Empire.

It is not a perfect world but America is the best we got.

Everyone that hates America is just jealous of America.

Any Canadian that hates America should realize that who we are and out standard of living is dependant upon America.

Get over the childish jealousy.
As for democracy - ha ha ha - do we have one in Canada? We have a Liberal dictarship and the dictatorship freely given by the stupid majority that falls for being bought.

Without the USA , Canada would be just another improvished undeveloped country , the only thing Canada has better than the USA is free healthcare and low crime rate .

[asim99]

although the american government is a bully, there is some hope when i see a great many nice americans out there, who are not afraid to say they are sorry (http://www.sorryeverybody.com/gallery/101/) for the kind of government they have

[Audiogenic]

If they choose to stick their nose where it doesn't belong for the simple reason of monetary gain then they deserve all of the criticism they receive and then some. They had 9/11 coming for a long time...

[yayawhoo2003]

Bottom Line: the u.s isnt perfect, either is any other country. They have done some really unethical things and really throw their weight around when it comes down to it. But every country does the same thing. Even here in Canada our government does some really stupid things (to a lesser extent of course, no wars)(sponsorship scandals, letting known criminals go free etc.)

However, I think the current u.s government is extremely corrupt at the moment, and I feel sorry for anyone living in the States today. I especially feel sorry for the soldiers in the war, they are the ones really getting shafted. Its sad when to keep your country in power in terms of wealth you have to start a war.

[yayawhoo2003]

If they choose to stick their nose where it doesn't belong for the simple reason of monetary gain then they deserve all of the criticism they receive and then some. They had 9/11 coming for a long time...


I dont think they had it coming?? Yes the things the U.S get involved in are ******** but the innocent citizens shouldnt be punished!!

[hagbard]

Genocide: Are you referring to the natives?
Slavery: I thought the South lost the war...

Like I said, digging through history, referencing to atrocities carried out by completely different people will get you nowhere. If you want to play that game, you may as well live in outer space. EVERY country has done something bad in their past.

If I was like you, then I would spit and beat the crap out of every Japanese (WWII) and British (Pre-Opium war) person that I see, despite that fact that I have not suffered through these injustices and my targets have not perpetrated any of these atrocities.

Now...if the current and recently current administration is commiting genocide and slavery, then I will probably side with you on your hate-on for the US. Even then, you can only legitimately hate 1/2 of the population. The other half are unwilling partners.

Rationalizations. The Americans are hypocrites, they throw around rhetoric about freedom and democracy and rights, yet they've never practiced any of it ever in their history.

[hagbard]

I am Canadian but I love America!

Thank you America for helping Europe fight the Germans in WW1 and WW2 - if it wasn't for you Britain and France would have lost the war.

FYI: The Americans didn't enter the war till never its conclusion. I was the Soviet Union that won that war, the Americans just prevented Soviet occupation of the rest of Europe.

Thank you America for standing up to the Soviets. If it wasn't for you a lot of Europeans would be speaking Russian today.

E. Germans don't speak Russian. ;)

Tahnk you America for taking a stand against fundamentalist theocratic authoritarianism (terrorism).

The US is run by fundamentalists and they carry out terrorism against Muslims.


America might not be perfect - no society ever is. But America stands for a free and pluralistic society.

Rhetorically only.


Then think of it this way - did anyone really like the Romans when they were a superpower? No - but Rome civilized the world. Did anyone like Britain when they were a superpower? No but they greatly improved the living standards of the people that were a part of the Empire.

It is not a perfect world but America is the best we got.

That's too bad. I vote "none-of-the-above".


Everyone that hates America is just jealous of America.

No more so than the Nazis.

Any Canadian that hates America should realize that who we are and out standard of living is dependant upon America.

Unfortunately. They will also take us down with them, which should be any day now.

Get over the childish jealousy.

As for democracy - ha ha ha - do we have one in Canada? We have a Liberal dictarship and the dictatorship freely given by the stupid majority that falls for being bought.

Its as democractic as the US. Not that I believe in democracy anyway.

[z0z0]

Hagbard - Can you tell me which society is better?

Please take into consideration political freedom and economic strength. Mexico? Brazil? Germany? Russia? China? Japan? Afghanistan? Some place in Africa?

If America is so bad then why is it the most desirable place in the world to immigrate to?

Come on - be realistic.

Admit that YOU just hate America and be done with it.

I am willing to say I LIKE America.

One last point - I have been in the US a number of times on holiday and business and overall I find Americans to be friendlier and more helpful than Canadians especially Torontonians.

You say that you don't believe in democracy. What do you believe in? I know that democracy is based on the concept that 1,000 idiots can make a better decision than one educated man but it is still the best system we have. Or do you think that an authoritarian theocracy is a better solution?

[hagbard]

Hagbard - Can you tell me which society is better?

Please take into consideration political freedom and economic strength. Mexico? Brazil? Germany? Russia? China? Japan? Afghanistan? Some place in Africa?

If America is so bad then why is it the most desirable place in the world to immigrate to?

Come on - be realistic.

Admit that YOU just hate America and be done with it.

I am willing to say I LIKE America.

One last point - I have been in the US a number of times on holiday and business and overall I find Americans to be friendlier and more helpful than Canadians especially Torontonians.

You say that you don't believe in democracy. What do you believe in? I know that democracy is based on the concept that 1,000 idiots can make a better decision than one educated man but it is still the best system we have. Or do you think that an authoritarian theocracy is a better solution?

I've lived many years in the States, and my father was a US citizen at one time. I'll take Canada anyday, more personal freedom and a better standard of living, and we don't go around the world trying to make enemies.

[gaurav_fhs]

Without the USA , Canada would be just another improvished undeveloped country , the only thing Canada has better than the USA is free healthcare and low crime rate .
LOL Its not that bad, we have more than enough resources to remain a developed country, but sure helps a lot when you have the world's biggest consumer right next door.

And the free healthcare and low crime rates are to die for.... ;)

[deactivated1245]

our healthcare is not "free". We pay dearly for it in our taxes.

[z0z0]

I've lived many years in the States, and my father was a US citizen at one time. I'll take Canada anyday, more personal freedom and a better standard of living, and we don't go around the world trying to make enemies.

Being the most powerful country both economically and militarily gives you some responsibilities. As a leader you have to make difficult decisions. The US also has to look out for the best interests of its citizens. Sometimes what is best for the US is not best for others but that is too bad. The big and strong get what they want. But even with that in mind the US is pretty benevolent.

Think back to the recent Tsunami. The US and Canada along with a few European countries donated over $100M yet the oil rich Middle Eastern countries donated ONE TENTH that amount. You would think that the Islamic countries would have donated more to their Muslim brethern - but they didn't.

Talking about donations to the poor countries - who gives more aid than the US?

[asim99]

Talking about donations to the poor countries - who gives more aid than the US?

since you asked for it, check this out (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2540&page=6)
what do you see?

[65505201]

since you asked for it, check this out (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2540&page=6)
what do you see?

The y-axis is for '2004 CGD/FP Commitment to Development Index'...is it scaled per capita? All it sez in an accompanying page is:


The CGD/FP Commitment to Development Index (CDI) ranks rich countries on how their policies help or hurt prospects for development in poor nations. Scores on each component of the CDI generally land between 0 and 10, but readers will spot a few scores above 10 and one below 0. How did that happen?

Each component of the CDI combines many numbers into a single score and places that score on a standard scale. The scales are adjusted so that the average score in each category is always 5. This adjustment makes it easy to note that Japan's policies, for instance, are above average on technology (with a score of 5.4), but not as strong on environment (4.5), by the standards of its peers.

If a country is twice as good as average, it scores a 10, and if it's more than twice as good, it scores above 10. In the 2004 CDI, Denmark, the Netherlands, Norway, and Sweden receive such high marks on aid. That also happens with Canada and the United States on migration, as befits these nations of immigrants. Extra credit, you could say.

The opposite is true for the environment and trade components of the index. Whereas scores on components such as security start at 0 (meaning no security contribution) and go up from there, scores on environmental pollution and trade barriers begin at 10 (no emissions or barriers) and go down from there. Just as a country can power through the 10-point ceiling by giving more aid or admitting more immigrants, it can also break through the floor of 0 by emitting enough pollution or imposing high tariffs.

Norway enforces enough tariffs to earn a dismal score of –2.7 on trade. The country's tariffs and quotas on imports, as well as its subsidies for its own farmers, constitute an average tariff of 32 percent on all imports, almost three times the 11.8 percent average for all countries ranked in the CDI. Norwegian tariffs are particularly high on agricultural products—an estimated 155 percent on rice imports, 334 percent on wheat, and 351 percent on beef.


You may want to post up actual $$'s instead some wierd index that was made up by someone.

[asim99]

You may want to post up actual $$'s instead some wierd index that was made up by someone.

the index is quite comprehensive, though i understand why someone would call it 'wierd'
the background data is here (excel file) (http://www.cgdev.org/doc/cdi/Index_2005.xls)

[65505201]

the index is quite comprehensive, though i understand why someone would call it 'wierd'
the background data is here (excel file) (http://www.cgdev.org/doc/cdi/Index_2005.xls)

Ok. I'm looking at the 'Aid 2005' tab...under Aid, the US had the highest gross and net amounts. If we compare the States to Denmark (the country with the highest index), you'll notice that aid is at ~15.5K vs. 1.3K, yet the adjusted score is 0.34 vs. 0.50.

So...it was adjusted for a per captia basis. The US is still blowing all the other countries out of the water when it come to absolute amounts, but lag behind on a per capita basis.

Now, you can argue that they can do more to bring their per capita numbers up, but the US is certainly contributing the most.

[z0z0]

Its as democractic as the US. Not that I believe in democracy anyway.

Hagbard - you never did respond to my question. If you do not believe in democracy then what is a better political system?

[Ojam]

Theoretically Anarchy would be good, or the very last stage of communism also sounds pretty good. When it comes down to it all democracy is, is the latest way to control the people.

[hagbard]

Hagbard - you never did respond to my question. If you do not believe in democracy then what is a better political system?

None.

[devious9191]

Ok. I'm looking at the 'Aid 2005' tab...under Aid, the US had the highest gross and net amounts. If we compare the States to Denmark (the country with the highest index), you'll notice that aid is at ~15.5K vs. 1.3K, yet the adjusted score is 0.34 vs. 0.50.

So...it was adjusted for a per captia basis. The US is still blowing all the other countries out of the water when it come to absolute amounts, but lag behind on a per capita basis.

Now, you can argue that they can do more to bring their per capita numbers up, but the US is certainly contributing the most.

Why should they (or anyone) do more? Until we start seeing results from the billions of dollars that is spent on developing countries right now, where's the incentive to give more? Genocide and nuclear research seem to be the only concrete results of that aid money.. so forget it.

[wju2004]

OK - A little off topic here but I think the US of A is now acting a bit like the bully as they are starting to get involved in our politics. It's no secret that the Bush administration doesn't like our current government but did no one else feel a little bit morally outraged when the US ambassador Wilkins basically said that we'd be better off without Martin?? And what's with the Washington Post trying to get Stephen Harper get elected? They're trying to pull too many strings up here. I don't like or dislike Martin but at least he has stood toe to toe with the Americans and not blinked (from softwood lumber, beef cattle, to the new Kyoto II/Montreal accord). I hope I'm not being targeted by the FBI/CIA who monitor RFD for a trip on one of their plane rides to their secret camps >:(

[65505201]

Why should they (or anyone) do more? Until we start seeing results from the billions of dollars that is spent on developing countries right now, where's the incentive to give more? Genocide and nuclear research seem to be the only concrete results of that aid money.. so forget it.

I said that you can argue that the US can do more. Never said that they need to. Asim used his reference to say that US is lagging behind. I pointed out that the States were still contributing the most despite lagging behind on a per capita basis.

[Rainbowreach]

Hagbard - you never did respond to my question. If you do not believe in democracy then what is a better political system?

Maybe a country's domestic political system isn't the only one way to pass judgement on that country. Although, you can easily evaulate the succcess of any political system by simply looking at the economy and extent to which quality of life and human rights and freedoms are being enjoyed by it's citizens. A good test is whether you could you see yourself living there. For example, I think Vancouver was recently called the best city to live in the world.

I think you would also have to evaluate how that country defines it's role in the world. A good example is Canada as a peace-keeper and the U.S. defining itself as a superpower. The country's foreign policy can also shed light on what the philosophy is at the heart of their country's "mission statement " . Is the philosophy an altruistic one ( peace ) or one of self-interest ( oil ).

[hagbard]

OK - A little off topic here but I think the US of A is now acting a bit like the bully as they are starting to get involved in our politics. It's no secret that the Bush administration doesn't like our current government but did no one else feel a little bit morally outraged when the US ambassador Wilkins basically said that we'd be better off without Martin?? And what's with the Washington Post trying to get Stephen Harper get elected? They're trying to pull too many strings up here. I don't like or dislike Martin but at least he has stood toe to toe with the Americans and not blinked (from softwood lumber, beef cattle, to the new Kyoto II/Montreal accord). I hope I'm not being targeted by the FBI/CIA who monitor RFD for a trip on one of their plane rides to their secret camps >:(

You left out the DEA trying to enforce American law on Canadian citizens within Canada. Of course, this is nothing new for the DEA, they've pretty much destroyed Columbia with its War on Drugs.

More and more, it looks like over gov't is being run from Washington.

[65505201]

You left out the DEA trying to enforce American law on Canadian citizens within Canada. Of course, this is nothing new for the DEA, they've pretty much destroyed Columbia with its War on Drugs.

More and more, it looks like over gov't is being run from Washington.

Well, considering the dumbass was doing something that he KNEW Washington would be pissed about (i.e. selling pot seeds to Americans), I can't say I feel sorry for him.

[ronin893]

Until we start seeing results from the billions of dollars that is spent on developing countries right now, where's the incentive to give more? Genocide and nuclear research seem to be the only concrete results of that aid money.. so forget it.
You should read up on the issue of debt relief. Live 8 wasn't some crappy concert by aging rockers. The rich countries, with the US being the biggest player, collect more in interest payments than hand out in foreign aid. Such aid is no more than an interest break.

[zzidaric]

None.


OK you say that you don't believe in democracy.

Your response "none" is rather cryptic.

Does this mean:

1. You don't believe in any political system (anarchist???)
2. There are no better systems than democracy (even if you dont believe in democracy

[Rainbowreach]

OK you say that you don't believe in democracy.

Your response "none" is rather cryptic.

Does this mean:

1. You don't believe in any political system (anarchist???)
2. There are no better systems than democracy (even if you dont believe in democracy


After Democracy, aren't Theocracy, Republic, Authoritarianism, and Autocracy the only remaining major ways of forming a government ?

I think "none " was probably suggestive of anarchism. But, that's just a guess.

[ichpen]

It seems as though the USA makes it seem that whatever they demand the world to do is the correct thing. Certain countries are not allowed to have nuclear bombs because they say so. When France refuses to go to Iraq they call them traitors. But yet, when it comes to making the world cleaner with the Kyoto protocol, they're not willing to support it because it will "slow down the economy"...what a bunch of BS! They always diss all the countries that go against them and somehow the white house always manages to justify it with a bunch of lies. The Iraq war, torturing prisoners, inhumane treatment of prisoners...etc...Even ex-President Bill Clinton is against what the current White House is up to. I admire Bill Clinton, he was a good president. He wasn't like Bush demanding war all the time. Ever since Clinton left office, the country went downhill. :mad:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/americas/12/10/climate.conference.ap/index.html

I'm glad I'm a Canuck!


Hate to break this to you but Canada's participation in Kyoto is a joke and the US (world's biggest contributor to global pollution) can wipe the floor with us with their non-Kyoto cutbacks in emissions.... Per capita Canada is one of the biggest polluters in the world so please don't mention Kyoto.

[Rainbowreach]

Hate to break this to you but Canada's participation in Kyoto is a joke and the US (world's biggest contributor to global pollution) can wipe the floor with us with their non-Kyoto cutbacks in emissions.... Per capita Canada is one of the biggest polluters in the world so please don't mention Kyoto.

But Canada's committed to lowering its greenhouse gas emissions to 6% below 1990 levels by 2012 under Kyoto. Canada's also a part of 156 other countries that have ratified the agreement ( representing over 61% of global emissions ).

2 countries haven't. Australia and the U.S.

You make it sound like Canada is some sort of bad guy when it comes to Kyoto.

[Rainbowreach]

OK you say that you don't believe in democracy.

Your response "none" is rather cryptic.

Does this mean:

1. You don't believe in any political system (anarchist???)
2. There are no better systems than democracy (even if you dont believe in democracy

It's a shame you never got a reply back from hagbard.

A debate on the merits of democracy versus anarchism would have been interesting. :)